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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 723034 times)

Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #165 on: June 03, 2011, 07:19:40 PM »
COMMENTS ON DR. STEVEN E. JONES CIRCUIT (using hyiq schematic)

This circuit has an advantage in that almost all of the energy in the collapsing magnetic field of L2 is transferred to C2. Where as in a normal Joule thief some of this energy is returned to the battery. This is a result of the resistor VR2 preventing rapid current flow back to the capacitor/battery and thus forcing the energy into C2. However, in order to be over unity the energy in the collapsing magnetic field of L2 would have to be greater than the energy used to create the magnetic field. This would conflict with historical experimental data on energy stored in magnetic fields of coils.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 08:19:12 PM by xee2 »

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Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #166 on: June 03, 2011, 07:37:53 PM »
COMMENTS ON DR. STEVEN E. JONES CIRCUIT
[...]
This circuit has an advantage in that almost all of the energy in the collapsing magnetic field of L2 is transferred to C2
[...]
 However, in order to be over unity the energy in the collapsing magnetic field of L2 would have to be greater than the energy used to create the magnetic field. This would colflict with historical experimental data on energy stored in magnetic fields of coils.

hi Xee

you might be interested in the results and calcs in the previous post before yours, then

Offline Tudi

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #167 on: June 03, 2011, 07:52:02 PM »
null-point : awsome work. Any chance to create a second circuit like first one ? instead looping just attach C2 in to C1 out. I'm not expecting to get some specific output at C2, just curious what will happen. Thanks.

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #167 on: June 03, 2011, 07:52:02 PM »
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #168 on: June 03, 2011, 08:04:51 PM »
I have had the "glitch" in one session on the Tek 3032 myself a while back, where the circuit was performing very well, n>1 per the Tek 3032.
  I made measurements of Pin and Pout repeatedly, back and forth, and kept getting n>1 for about 45 minutes, varying Rr and Ro, and getting variations in n but always n>1.   
Then all of a sudden, it changed for unknown reasons to n<1.   Sorry I did not mention this sooner -- I thought the "glitch" was for it to fall out of the super-efficiency condition temporarily, or perhaps I caused an inadvertent short in the system -- I could not find what made it glitch.   Later, it looked fine again.


I experienced the same problem where initially I saw a unity reading. I think this is a triggering problem. Its important to get the trigger set where the mean voltage reading across the shunt resistor is as stable as possible. If you monitor the readings at various different triggering points, I think you can find a nice overunity spot!

Hoppy



Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #169 on: June 03, 2011, 08:41:19 PM »
hi Xee

you might be interested in the results and calcs in the previous post before yours, then

133 uW in and 52 uW out seems like reasonable performance for a Joule thief. The rest was not clear to me. I will have to look at it for a while.

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #169 on: June 03, 2011, 08:41:19 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #170 on: June 03, 2011, 08:44:59 PM »
133 uW in and 52 uW out seems like reasonable performance for a Joule thief. The rest was not clear to me. I will have to look at it for a while.

i agree that "133 uW in and 52 uW out" is  reasonable performance for a JT

however, these results for a variant of Steven's circuit are showing 81uW in and 133uW out - 212uW out if you include the LED o/p!
 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 09:22:24 PM by nul-points »

Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #171 on: June 03, 2011, 08:51:38 PM »
null-point : awsome work. Any chance to create a second circuit like first one ? instead looping just attach C2 in to C1 out. I'm not expecting to get some specific output at C2, just curious what will happen. Thanks.

thanks Tudi - i have done something similar with a different circuit in the past, so i'll try to move on to that

at the moment tho', i'm just monitoring the voltage trend on the supply cell & buffer cap

i believe that NiMHs are only 50% efficient when you charge them, so i'm not expecting too much of the present setup (would need COP = 2 just to keep cell charged - but LED dissipates 79uW so now have COP < 2)

anyway, this might be more evidence for Steven - we'll have to see what he thinks about this data

all the best
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #171 on: June 03, 2011, 08:51:38 PM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #172 on: June 03, 2011, 11:32:20 PM »
I agree Chris --
1.  "This circuit is a very unusual circuit." 
2.  "We need to keep the current down for this effect."
3.  "Sometimes it seems to be looking really good then other times it does not. "

I have had the "glitch" in one session on the Tek 3032 myself a while back, where the circuit was performing very well, n>1 per the Tek 3032.
  I made measurements of Pin and Pout repeatedly, back and forth, and kept getting n>1 for about 45 minutes, varying Rr and Ro, and getting variations in n but always n>1.   
Then all of a sudden, it changed for unknown reasons to n<1.   Sorry I did not mention this sooner -- I thought the "glitch" was for it to fall out of the super-efficiency condition temporarily, or perhaps I caused an inadvertent short in the system -- I could not find what made it glitch.   Later, it looked fine again.


During this same session at the university lab, I tested the build by my friend Les Kraut.  He tried to replicate the sj1 circuit exactly.   His build showed n ~ 8, after the "glitch" showed up in my initial circuit-testing.


 Later -- I have felt one of the resistors being very hot to the touch during a run, and this MAY be a reason for the "glitch". I was not at the Tek 3032 this time.   I suggest feeling the resistors if your circuit "glitches" again.

Clearly the goal is to understand our observations and to keep the device in the super-efficiency condition.
Thanks again, Chris, and my apologies for not mentioning this sooner.  I do not think this "invalidates" the circuit, but it is something we must try to understand.
Steven

Hi Dr Jones,

yes, this is correct, I have observed the same. I was thinking my scope was on the blink, it samples @100mhz so I thought this should be enough, but was getting inconsistent readings.

My Bi-Polar Circuit version seems to be the dud however, it draws too much current and so far it seems to loose the effect. I will keep working on it as if I can get it working then its only a diode or two and it should self loop.

I am up with a fresh start today so will see what the old brain can come up with today.

All the best

  Chris

« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 12:36:58 AM by hyiq »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #173 on: June 03, 2011, 11:33:50 PM »
....
@Gyula - Yes, I fixed as you Xee2 suggested. Would you suggest a diode on the negative rail? This may help any ripple?
....
  Chris

Regarding the small power levels involved in this circuit, the good old germanium diodes like 1N34, 1N34A  or also some ancient germanium European types like OA160, OA161, OA5 etc could be used. If you happen to have any germanium bipolar transistor left somewhere, you can use it here also as a diode, by connecting its base to its collector and it will be the anode and the emitter will be the cathode (for an NPN transistor of course, for a PNP they reverse).  Only drawback is the much lower reverse voltage capability due to the 5-7V or less base-emitter reverse voltage ratings.

With such diode any AC that might come from the circuit direction via the negative rail (or the positive if you place the diode there) will be half-wave rectified, you may wish to move the C3 filter further towards the battery in this case so that it should not shunt any AC before the diode.

Gyula


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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #173 on: June 03, 2011, 11:33:50 PM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #174 on: June 03, 2011, 11:52:06 PM »
Adding diode here will help some.

Hi Xee2,

Thanks for your suggestion. Circuit Schematic is attached. I put that this is experimental as I had the POT on the positive rail and the effect was lost so as I have not yet tested this circuit its experimental. I will test it today though.

All the best

  Chris

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #175 on: June 03, 2011, 11:56:21 PM »
@ hyiq

Kooler and I have been able to get Joule thief circuits to light an LED dimly on as little as 5 micro-watts of input power using a MPSA06. You may want to try that if you can get one. The MPSA06 seems to work better than a 2N2222 at low power.

Hi Xee2,

I have seen some very broard results with the transistor/fett 's I have used. Some are no good at all and some work ok but some work really well. I agree, this is very important to try as many Fetts/Transistors as one can to get the best results here. Not any old Transistor/Fett will do.

Thanks I will source a MPSA06 and give that a go.

All the best

  Chris

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #175 on: June 03, 2011, 11:56:21 PM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #176 on: June 04, 2011, 12:09:14 AM »
Hi nul-points,

Nice work!

All the best

  Chris

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #177 on: June 04, 2011, 12:25:08 AM »
COMMENTS ON DR. STEVEN E. JONES CIRCUIT (using hyiq schematic)

This circuit has an advantage in that almost all of the energy in the collapsing magnetic field of L2 is transferred to C2. Where as in a normal Joule thief some of this energy is returned to the battery. This is a result of the resistor VR2 preventing rapid current flow back to the capacitor/battery and thus forcing the energy into C2. However, in order to be over unity the energy in the collapsing magnetic field of L2 would have to be greater than the energy used to create the magnetic field. This would conflict with historical experimental data on energy stored in magnetic fields of coils.

Hi Xee2,

I agree. Here are my thoughts. First I don't disagree with science. Science is mostly correct but in my opinion we have not fully understood all of it yet.

The Energy :

The Energy we are seeing I believe is not directly from the Coil or the Magnetic Field. I believe this "Extra" Energy is from the Short duration Pulses we are shunting into a very low resistance (The low impedance Coil). Nikola Tesla explained it but I cant find the exact quote, but it goes similar to the following: "The operator threw the switch and was killed instantly"

As the switch is closed for an instant, a surge of Energy shunted into the low impedance of the coil causes a pressure wave and this pressure wave draws in the surrounding Energy of the Vacuum.

EDIT: Causing SOME of the oscillations we are seeing...

I could go a bit further here but think it would cause controversy.

So this is where I believe it is coming from thus far but have no proof.

So what next, how to self power and scale? This could be looked at in many ways. Lots of little oscillators all connected in parallel, or in series, or in a flip flop arrangement.

To much speculation could have us spend to much time not being constructive so I must leave my speculations here.

All the best

   Chris

 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 12:55:53 AM by hyiq »

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #178 on: June 04, 2011, 12:35:42 AM »
Regarding the small power levels involved in this circuit, the good old germanium diodes like 1N34, 1N34A  or also some ancient germanium European types like OA160, OA161, OA5 etc could be used. If you happen to have any germanium bipolar transistor left somewhere, you can use it here also as a diode, by connecting its base to its collector and it will be the anode and the emitter will be the cathode (for an NPN transistor of course, for a PNP they reverse).  Only drawback is the much lower reverse voltage capability due to the 5-7V or less base-emitter reverse voltage ratings.

With such diode any AC that might come from the circuit direction via the negative rail (or the positive if you place the diode there) will be half-wave rectified, you may wish to move the C3 filter further towards the battery in this case so that it should not shunt any AC before the diode.

Gyula

Hi Gyula,

Your expertise is very much appreciated! Thanks. So just to confirm, move the diode in Circuit V5 in Reply #174 to the other side of C3? So the Cap is not affected by the diode?

Thanks for your other suggestions also. I will have  A look around and see what I have.

All the best

  Chris

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #179 on: June 04, 2011, 07:22:28 AM »
Hi Xee2,

Thanks for your suggestion. Circuit Schematic is attached. I put that this is experimental as I had the POT on the positive rail and the effect was lost so as I have not yet tested this circuit its experimental. I will test it today though.

All the best

  Chris

Hi All,

I have tested this circuit (Chris's Circuit Replication V5 - Experimental Input Diode D3 Small) and there is a deminished end result. I believe there is an oscillation through the battery also and this increases the output. Maybe like the Bedini Charge Popping?

Not 100% conclusive yet, but all tests point to a Diode being not good on the Positive Rail.

If the Electric Charge works like Edward Leedskalnin said it does, and this can be debated, we would get different results with the transistor on the Negitive side of the low impedance Inductor and possible loose the end result all together. It appars this is true so far.

I am still getting good results but attempts in looping/self running have all failed. This does not mean this is not COP < 1. Just that I have failed to date at self looping.

Scaling up is also still something I am having trouble with. Increased Voltage should mean increased Turns on the Low Impedance coil but also means in the adjusting of the circuit components, components burn out much quicker if the right values are not achieved quickly.

Still working on this, also trying to get some work done on my other projects so may be a bit before my next post.

All the best

  Chris

EDIT : P.S. The best Circuit to consistently measure an "Energy Gain from the Vacuum" to date is: 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 09:00:21 AM by hyiq »

 

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