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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 706663 times)

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #150 on: June 02, 2011, 11:54:07 PM »

BTW  could you help those of us who have smaller displays on our computer systems?

it would be very helpful if you could reduce the size of your images before posting, because wide images force all the text on every post on the page to require horizontal as well as the usual vertical scrolling in order to read all of each post

a maximum width of around 800 pixels should still leave a suitable resolution for most images - and it should also allow folks with limited screen-width displays to be able to read the entire page just by scrolling down

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Hi nul-points,

Appologies, Yes I will make the images smaller. Sorry. I have seen to many small bad resolution images showing really nothing of any value so I try to always get the best clearest images I can to really make the image of value to others.

All the best.

  Chris


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline e2matrix

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #151 on: June 03, 2011, 12:12:55 AM »

hi Chris

thanks for sharing your results with us, it's encouraging that they are supporting Steven's own results - the set of successful replications is growing!


BTW  could you help those of us who have smaller displays on our computer systems?

it would be very helpful if you could reduce the size of your images before posting, because wide images force all the text on every post on the page to require horizontal as well as the usual vertical scrolling in order to read all of each post

a maximum width of around 800 pixels should still leave a suitable resolution for most images - and it should also allow folks with limited screen-width displays to be able to read the entire page just by scrolling down

thanks in advance for your help with this


i meant to say above, nice clean build you have there - compared with my 'birdsnest' construction!

all the best
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Sorry to drag this off topic for a minute but I basically agree with what you say on pic size.  However as my main browser since the early 90's has been Opera if you haven't tried it you'll find it's great for dealing with this situation.   Hit the minus key on the keypad a couple times (each press reduces page size 10%) and everything fits nicely on the page.  Or just go direct to the menu made for directly resizing with your mouse and jump down to or up to whatever size you want (menu is 20% up to 900%).  The plus key sizes it up also. 
Now back to our regularly scheduled OU discussion :)

hyiq,  am I reading your screen caps correctly that you are getting about 19 times OU?  While I realize we are dealing with very low power here if you do have 19 > COP then isn't there a way to loop it?  That would certainly end any argument about measurement errors.
  I would envision getting it started with a battery and using a fast multi-pole relay to switch out the battery and switch into looped mode maybe with a cap in there to hold it until its self running.

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #152 on: June 03, 2011, 01:38:38 AM »
hyiq,  am I reading your screen caps correctly that you are getting about 19 times OU?  While I realize we are dealing with very low power here if you do have 19 > COP then isn't there a way to loop it?  That would certainly end any argument about measurement errors.
  I would envision getting it started with a battery and using a fast multi-pole relay to switch out the battery and switch into looped mode maybe with a cap in there to hold it until its self running.

Hi e2matrix,

Yes.

My goals are:

1: Replicate this effect - done.
2: Understand this effect - In-progress.
3: Try to scale up this effect - TODO.
4: Self Power and power a Load - TODO.

I dont know if any of you know, but I have played with this type of circuit for many years:
http://www.hyiq.org/Library/Catching_Radiant_Energy.htm

Not exactly the same circuit but similar concept. I guess this is what has drawn me to replicate Dr Jones Circuit.

Nikola Tesla : "He threw the switch for a brief instant, and was again caught off guard by the stinging pressure wave!"

Could we be seeing the same effect?

All the best.

  Chris
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #152 on: June 03, 2011, 01:38:38 AM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #153 on: June 03, 2011, 01:08:55 PM »
Hi All,

I have a Bi-Polar Circuit working but this is really giving me VERY unusual Measurements on the scope. I am getting Negative Current on the sense resistor on the input. Please let me know what your thoughts are. If I flip the Earth and the probe around on the input I do get a positive current reading.

All the best

  Chris

« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:08:53 PM by hyiq »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #154 on: June 03, 2011, 02:30:28 PM »
Hi Chris,

Sorry to chime in, I believe xee2 made some good comments on the measurements in his Reply #143  http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773.msg289292#msg289292

Have you considered those comments or may be you disagree with them? 

Thanks,  Gyula

Hi All,

I have a Bi-Polar Circuit working but this is really giving me VERY unusual Measurements on the scope. I am getting Negative Current on the sense resistor on the input. Please let me know what your thoughts are. If I flip the Earth and the probe around on the input I do get a positive current reading.

All the best

  Chris

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #154 on: June 03, 2011, 02:30:28 PM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #155 on: June 03, 2011, 02:39:03 PM »
@ hyiq

If you are using R3 to measure input current, I think it should be moved to be in series with the battery so that it is only measuring the battery current. And I think you should remove VR2 since it is shorted out by the grounds.

NOTE: Where you have it, R3 is only measuring a small part of the current coming into circuit since most of the current is going into the output ground.

Hi Gyula, sorry Xee2, I missed your suggestion.

I only have one scope. I only take one measurement at a time, so the Earth is not shorting anything out, rest assured.

I will move the Current Sense Resistor/Scope Probe points, as you mentioned. Please can you explain how and why you think there will be any current/Power that is not measured here? I dont understand why this may be? I have no Earth on one of my power cords for my scope if this is your concern. I have two power cords and one has an Earth and one has not. I have checked both. No visable change to the readings.

Please let me know what your thoughts are and I will be happy to change and retry the measurements.

My Replication Circuit V4 is attached.

All the best

  Chris

« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:01:50 PM by hyiq »

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #156 on: June 03, 2011, 03:17:31 PM »
Hi e2matrix,

Yes.

My goals are:

1: Replicate this effect - done.
2: Understand this effect - In-progress.
3: Try to scale up this effect - TODO.
4: Self Power and power a Load - TODO.
[snip]

All the best.

  Chris

On the road (about 500 miles needed today), just wanted to say from the motel that I totally agree with these goals by Chris (Hyiq).  I'm so impressed by you guys who will jump in and do the replication then proceed with improvements and further tests.  Experimental science at its best, IMO -- and I would add to Chris' list:

5.  Experiments to determine just where the energy is coming from
(as with trying to understand high-temp superconductivity, this may take a while)
6.  Scale the system way up to provide power at the home-level.

Also, I agree with Chris on the importance of tuning as I also noted in the vid:

Quote
"I tune to get the lowest input power I can but get the LED as bright as I can."

Right!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #156 on: June 03, 2011, 03:17:31 PM »
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Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #157 on: June 03, 2011, 03:26:38 PM »

Please can you explain how and why you think there will be any current/Power that is not measured here?


Hi Chris,

With R3 in the new position you are measuring all of the input current. Where you had it there would have been a ground loop around R3 if you had both grounds connected at the same time. This would have provided a path that bypassed R3. You have everything correct now. Thanks for posting such good schematics.

EDIT: LEDs do not obey ohms law. The voltage drop is set by the junction, not the current. So care must be used when measuring power with an LED in the load. I think you are doing this correctly, I am just giving a word of warning.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:52:32 PM by xee2 »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #158 on: June 03, 2011, 03:29:33 PM »
Hi Chris,

From my part, I was mainly concerned with the scope Earth shorting out R3 and VR2 when two probes used at the same time.

Regarding the position of current shunt R3, it is interesting...   

R3 and C3 (220uF) surely form an RC low pass filter and from AC point of view the AC voltage drop across R3 can only be very very small if I assume a similar inner impedance for the 4V battery or 4V supply like the 220uF has at the oscillator working frequency  i.e. I suppose also very low. 

If you reposition R3 as xee2 suggested, then the low pass filtering situation changes and the AC voltage drop across R3 can be higher than before, much closer to reality.

However, supposing  the current consumption of this oscillator only a few milliAmper (or less) then the best instrument to use for checking the DC voltage drop across an 0.1 Ohm resistor would be a DC (milli)Voltmeter and not really a scope, especially not a scope in your diagram shown in Reply# 153 above as you have got the low pass filter with R3C3. (at a few milliAmper draw even the DC voltage drop is very low but the AC voltage drop is much much lower than the DC due to the AC shunting effects of C3 and the 4V battery)
     I would check the DC voltage drop across R3 for polarity too with a DC multimeter in your present setup (maybe disconnect the scope completely from the circuit for the time using a handheld DC DMM).  And if you still find the polarity to be negative, then you surely have an interesting circuit... worth checking and testing further.  ;)

Thanks,  Gyula

EDIT  just noticed you corrected the schematic in Reply# 153 too and repositioned R3 as xee2 suggested.  I mention this for those members who try to understand what we are talking about....  :D

Hi Gyula, sorry Xee2, I missed your suggestion.

I only have one scope. I only take one measurement at a time, so the Earth is not shorting anything out, rest assured.

I will move the Current Sense Resistor/Scope Probe points, as you mentioned. Please can you explain how and why you think there will be any current/Power that is not measured here? I dont understand why this may be? I have no Earth on one of my power cords for my scope if this is your concern. I have two power cords and one has an Earth and one has not. I have checked both. No visable change to the readings.

Please let me know what your thoughts are and I will be happy to change and retry the measurements.

My Replication Circuit V4 is attached.

All the best

  Chris



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #158 on: June 03, 2011, 03:29:33 PM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #159 on: June 03, 2011, 03:58:43 PM »
Hi All,

Thanks for your suggestions. This circuit is a very unusual circuit. I am still not sure on the whole thing. Sometimes it seems to be looking really good then other times it does not. It may be the latest Bi-Polar Circuit is not much to rave about as input current consumption does go up and this Bi-Polar circuit and it is not what we want it to do. We need to keep the current down for this effect.

I will take a fresh look tommorrow. Please keep the suggestions coming and if others are replicating please let us know your results.

@Gyula - Yes, I fixed as you Xee2 suggested. Would you suggest a diode on the negative rail? This may help any ripple? I am trying to measure only DC Voltage, but measure the AC Current as this does bounce around crazy at points. Not sure if the Bi-Polar circuit is any good yet. May be its a dud. It works, but give us the same effect, not yet anyway. 

All the best

  Chris

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #160 on: June 03, 2011, 04:40:36 PM »
I agree Chris --
1.  "This circuit is a very unusual circuit." 
2.  "We need to keep the current down for this effect."
3.  "Sometimes it seems to be looking really good then other times it does not. "

I have had the "glitch" in one session on the Tek 3032 myself a while back, where the circuit was performing very well, n>1 per the Tek 3032.
  I made measurements of Pin and Pout repeatedly, back and forth, and kept getting n>1 for about 45 minutes, varying Rr and Ro, and getting variations in n but always n>1.   
Then all of a sudden, it changed for unknown reasons to n<1.   Sorry I did not mention this sooner -- I thought the "glitch" was for it to fall out of the super-efficiency condition temporarily, or perhaps I caused an inadvertent short in the system -- I could not find what made it glitch.   Later, it looked fine again.


During this same session at the university lab, I tested the build by my friend Les Kraut.  He tried to replicate the sj1 circuit exactly.   His build showed n ~ 8, after the "glitch" showed up in my initial circuit-testing.


 Later -- I have felt one of the resistors being very hot to the touch during a run, and this MAY be a reason for the "glitch". I was not at the Tek 3032 this time.   I suggest feeling the resistors if your circuit "glitches" again.

Clearly the goal is to understand our observations and to keep the device in the super-efficiency condition.
Thanks again, Chris, and my apologies for not mentioning this sooner.  I do not think this "invalidates" the circuit, but it is something we must try to understand.
Steven


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #160 on: June 03, 2011, 04:40:36 PM »
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Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #161 on: June 03, 2011, 04:51:42 PM »

Would you suggest a diode on the negative rail? This may help any ripple? I am trying to measure only DC Voltage, but measure the AC Current as this does bounce around crazy at points.


Adding diode here will help some.


Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #162 on: June 03, 2011, 05:04:14 PM »
@ hyiq

Kooler and I have been able to get Joule thief circuits to light an LED dimly on as little as 5 micro-watts of input power using a MPSA06. You may want to try that if you can get one. The MPSA06 seems to work better than a 2N2222 at low power.


Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #163 on: June 03, 2011, 05:50:46 PM »
 
firstly, a quick thank you to Chris for re-sizing your circuit - still very readable - but no need to scroll across now - or reduce the page size & not be able to read the writing!


Steven

there have been some developments which you may find interesting

apologies that there is a mass of detail and calcs - in this case, i feel that 'the end justifies the means'!

i ought to mention in passing that i modified my circuit slightly to decouple the AC output from the DC biasing conditions of the oscillator by adding a tertiary winding on the transformer (see schematic below)

i don't believe that the following information is influenced by the output coupling method - current draw from the supply cell and LED illumination appear to remain at a similar level as before


i've been able to use an opto-coupler with my low-freq. 'inverted looped' sr1 circuit variant to get a handle on the o/p level issue

i used the opto LED in place of the discrete LED in the circuit**
(and confirmed that this didn't significantly alter the DC current draw of the circuit from the single AAA NiMH supply cell)

i used a DVM resistance range to bias and measure the opto transistor C-E 'impedance'

(transistors are viewed as having 'transconductance' between terminal current paths, but let's not get into 'terminology' just yet!)

i applied a time-constant to the DVM reading by connecting a capacitor in parallel with the opto o/p, to act as a DC 'smoothing' filter on the reading

Please see the details and calcs in the following post!...


[EDIT:  ** please note, i'm not claiming this is a precision method, or that this approach can't be refined to give more accurate quantified readings - i'm suggesting that this approach can be used as a simple comparative method to provide a ballpark value for DC Power equivalent of LED o/p in a suitable situation]
 
 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 10:18:41 PM by nul-points »

Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #164 on: June 03, 2011, 05:51:20 PM »
PLEASE NOTE:
In the following calculations i'm using DC Power values - since all of these values are equally proportional with time, they're equivalent to using Joule values (ie. working with energy)



Steven

i realise that you already make use of this method yourself - the previous comment is only for the benefit of others! (get ready for howls of protest...)  :)


Measurements for the 'Inverted, Slowed, but NOT looped' sr1 circuit
===============================================
Vbatt: 1.243V
Iin: 107uA

DC Pin total: 133uW

let's just emphasize, here:
  with 1.243V across the oscillator supply, the oscillator will draw 133 uW of DC Power


Measurements for the 'Inverted, Looped & Slowed' sr1 circuit
===========================================
Vbatt: 1.243V
Iin: 65uA

DC Pin total: 81uW


after losses, the available o/p energy is stored in the buffer cap

some energy from the buffer cap gets transferred back to combine with the input energy to meet the total DC Power draw requirement of the circuit

since the DC Power drawn from the battery decreases to 81uW, when feedback is applied, then the DC Power contribution from the buffer capacitor:
  133 - 81 =  52uW

let's just emphasize, here:
  the contribution of DC Power In from the o/p feedback path to the oscillator circuit is 52uW


so now the question is: "what are the various energy losses in the system?"

 - light
 - heat
 - e/m radiation


let's consider the energy conversion in the LED

firstly, find the equivalent DVM reading (of the opto o/p) to that caused by in-circuit LED replacement by the opto LED
(see schematic below)


Opto LED DC Power comparison (opto LED in series with variable resistor)
===============================================
Vbat: 2.77V
Iin: 84uA

DC Pin total: 233uW

Variable resistor set to 21.8 Kohms (to match opto o/p with in-circuit value)

Joule loss in Var Res:
0.000084 * 0.000084 * 21800 = 154uW

Therefore DC Power converted by LED: (233 - 154) = 79uW

ie. the LED is providing the equivalent of 79uW DC power


since the opto LED is 'diverting' 79uW (mostly as light, some heat),
the total DC Power supplied by the buffer cap:
  52 + 79 = 131uW (at least, ignoring losses)

let's just emphasize here:
  the total DC Power provided from the buffer capacitor is 131uW


OK, so the oscillator circuit DC Power requirement is:
  133uW

and when looped,

DC Power supplied by energy source A (NiMH cell):
  81uW

DC Power supplied by energy source B (Buffer cap):
  131uW

Total DC Power supplied to the oscillator + LED:
  81 + 131 = 212uW

let's just emphasize here:
  the total DC Power converted by the whole system is 212uW

  the total DC Power supplied by the NiMH cell is 81uW


so the efficiency value, 'n' is 212/81 = 2.62

...and that's ignoring losses (heat & e/m radiation)

[EDIT:  note that 79uW equivalent of DC Power is dissipated by the LED and is lost to the system, which would reduce the 'available' electrical 'n' to be 133 / 81 = 1.64]


now it's my turn to ask if YOU would mind kindly checking MY math, thanks Steven  :)


and finally (Phew!) let's quickly 'lead out' a possible objection...
(DA = a 'Devil's Advocate')

DA:
 "Ah, Mr Nul-Points, that's all just fancy footwork - in reality when you looped the circuit back you probably just increased the total circuit impedance, so THAT is why the DC Power In from the battery decreased!"

NP:
 "Not so fast, Mr DA - connecting a load in parallel with the oscillator would conventionally be expected to reduce the system impedance and tend to increase the DC Power draw from an external supply;
  what we're seeing here is REDUCED DC Power draw from external supply, when connecting a load to the sytem"


let me know what you think

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 
 
 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 10:07:37 PM by nul-points »

 

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