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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 706214 times)

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2011, 08:58:21 PM »
John Bedini has always stressed the importance of calculating energy in and out when calculating COP for his monopole motors and the like, so I don't see why the approach to measuring this circuit should be any different. I've built Stevens circuit and cannot get it anywhere close to self-running. Before anyone goes to the bother of calculating energy for this device, just let the battery run the device over a period of time because as with any Joule Thief type circuit, it will run right down over time and that's a certainty!

Hoppy

There are some basics that allow us to compare circuits, Hoppy.  I noted that I ran with a capacitor bank for the input energy, and found a power draw of about 0.23 mW, with the LED dimly lit.
Could you do the same with your replication, since we have these test data?  Very easy to do, just requires a good cap (non-leaky as possible) and a stop watch.  I took data over 30 seconds, as detailed above.

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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #91 on: May 31, 2011, 09:33:08 PM »

Before anyone goes to the bother of calculating energy for this device, just let the battery run the device over a period of time because as with any Joule Thief type circuit, it will run right down over time and that's a certainty!

Hoppy

Some of them do not "Run right down" if you look at Gadgetmall's circuits...one of his JT designs will run over a year 24/7 on a single AA so that is a long time to test.  The ones I have made take months to run the battery down.

Just pointing this out is all.  None of my circuits with the JT were OU.

Bill

Offline prm

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2011, 09:50:55 PM »
Dr. Jones,

First of all I want to commend you for your courage in relation to your work on 9/11 and thermite.  Second, I think you also have courage, being a "main-stream" scientist with impressive credentials, and yet, you have an open mind about the possibility of alternative energy sources.  Would that more scientists like you would be willing to stick their necks out in exploring new avenues.

The present condition of main-stream science with its peer-review system and entrenched dogmatism is anti-science in my opinion.  It stifles advancement. The main-stream stance implies they know everything there is to know about the laws of nature and they don't need to investigate any new idea.  A quick reading of science history shows how absurd this position is.

Concerning your circuit.  The measurement methodology is the nagging issue here, as you are well aware of.  Debate over this can go on forever.  In my opinion the best way to "prove" a new technology is to take the prototype out of the chalk-board realm and into the real world.  If there is energy gain going on, then as suggested by others, you should be able to feedback a small portion of the output back into the input to make the circuit action self-sustaining.  This is where the rubber meets the road.  After all, the circuit would have to do this if it were to be of any innovative and commerical value.

As to the energy source, if you believe the zpe is real, then its an issue of tapping that energy through electro-magnetic means.  Who knows, there might be a way.

Incidently, you may remember me or not.  I was the individual who contacted you a few years ago about an experiment I was doing with inertia and the zpe.  Since then, I have done an experiment, using a high-speed video camera, that shows the speed of the center of mass of the system increases.  By Euler's First Law and the conservation of momentum, this can only happen if an external force acts on a system.  The external force was inertia.

I plan to post the results of this experiment in the future on this website. Since this thread is not about this experiment I will only say if you are interested, you can send me a private message.

As far as your circuit, I hope it turns out that you are tapping some energy source that has previously been ignored.





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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2011, 09:50:55 PM »
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #93 on: May 31, 2011, 10:24:23 PM »
Some of them do not "Run right down" if you look at Gadgetmall's circuits...one of his JT designs will run over a year 24/7 on a single AA so that is a long time to test.  The ones I have made take months to run the battery down.

Just pointing this out is all.  None of my circuits with the JT were OU.

Bill

A small battery powering a Joule Thief with LED load can indeed take months to run down to a point where the LED extinguishes. Puekert's Law also works in reverse in that the virtual capacity of a battery will greatly increase as the current drawn form a battery reduces significantly below the manufacturers discharge ratings. Studying battery discharge curves at sub C40 rates is an eye opener and something that all Bedini enthusiats should study before reaching conclusions about COP.

Hoppy

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #94 on: May 31, 2011, 10:28:03 PM »
Thank you for the succinct summary, jmmac:

prm,

As I understand it:

- In the original circuit with battery, Dr. Jones used his digital oscilloscope to calculate the mean instantaneous power in and out. The instantaneous power: P(t) = I(t) * U(t) which changes over time. If you calculate the average of that instantaneous power over several cycles, you have a good measurement of the true power (oscilloscope measures current and voltage over time and multiplies the 2, then calculates the mean).
\\..
In conclusion: calculating mean instantaneous power over a period of time is equivalent to measuring the energy. Power is Work (Energy) by unit of time.

- In the experiment powered by the large capacitor, the energy came from that capacitor and you can calculate the total energy it contains knowing the capacity and it's voltage. Knowing the initial and final voltage of the capacitor and the amount of time it was connected to the circuit, you can calculate the energy it gave to the circuit in that time and the mean power. That value was calculated and is very small.

Regards,
Jaime


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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #94 on: May 31, 2011, 10:28:03 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #95 on: May 31, 2011, 10:56:14 PM »
Dr. Jones,

First of all I want to commend you for your courage in relation to your work on 9/11 and thermite.  Second, I think you also have courage, being a "main-stream" scientist with impressive credentials, and yet, you have an open mind about the possibility of alternative energy sources.  Would that more scientists like you would be willing to stick their necks out in exploring new avenues.

Thank you indeed, prm.  Yes, I have published in Scientific American, Phys Rev Letters, Nature, etc.
My interest now is in helping the emergence of what I consider a nascent science -- novel electrodynamic energy, one might call it.  Expect a battle, folks.  (Been there, I know somewhat what to expect.)
Quote
The present condition of main-stream science with its peer-review system and entrenched dogmatism is anti-science in my opinion.  It stifles advancement. The main-stream stance implies they know everything there is to know about the laws of nature and they don't need to investigate any new idea.  A quick reading of science history shows how absurd this position is.

Good points.  There are some opportunities even in the peer-review system for publication that I might be able to help with.  But yes -- the more "mainstream" guys (and probably BigOyl/Gov't - BO) can be expected to fight this emergence, as a free-energy source.  As long as they control, they would allow it to be discussed probably...  we can discuss how to get it out to humanity without having it stomped (or bought out) by bo. 

Quote
Concerning your circuit.  The measurement methodology is the nagging issue here, as you are well aware of.  Debate over this can go on forever.  In my opinion the best way to "prove" a new technology is to take the prototype out of the chalk-board realm and into the real world.  If there is energy gain going on, then as suggested by others, you should be able to feedback a small portion of the output back into the input to make the circuit action self-sustaining.  This is where the rubber meets the road.  After all, the circuit would have to do this if it were to be of any innovative and commerical value
.

Yes, self-sustaining is the goal.  Somehow the output leg needs rectification in this case.
I should emphasize that Sterling Allan originally called my little device a "Demonstration of OU" -- I objected, and had him change this to "Evidence for".   It is not certain yet.


Quote
As to the energy source, if you believe the zpe is real, then its an issue of tapping that energy through electro-magnetic means.  Who knows, there might be a way.

"Do the Physics", we call it -- to find out what makes the device tick.  But first, it has to be ticking!
 

Quote
Incidently, you may remember me or not.  I was the individual who contacted you a few years ago about an experiment I was doing with inertia and the zpe.  Since then, I have done an experiment, using a high-speed video camera, that shows the speed of the center of mass of the system increases.  By Euler's First Law and the conservation of momentum, this can only happen if an external force acts on a system.  The external force was inertia.

I plan to post the results of this experiment in the future on this website. Since this thread is not about this experiment I will only say if you are interested, you can send me a private message.

As far as your circuit, I hope it turns out that you are tapping some energy source that has previously been ignored.
[/quote]

Ah -- I'm very interested in your experiment, prm.   Pls do post your work here. 

Offline prm

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2011, 11:22:38 PM »

Ah -- I'm very interested in your experiment, prm.   Pls do post your work here.

Dr. Jones,

Thank you for responding to my last post.  Since this is your "thread" on your circuit, I will only mention that I am in the process of doing a second, slightly different experiment to confirm the results of my first.  I am taking meticulous care in this since the results of my experiment have extra-ordinary implications.

About a month ago I sent a copy of the video to a MIT professor.  I will not mention his name in case he doesn't want to be "associated" with this.  What he said, after viewing the video surprised me.  First, he admitted he could not explain why the speed of the center of mass of the system increased.  And second, he encouraged me by saying, "by all means continue your research."

I believe if I were making a fundamental error in my reasoning and analysis, he would have pointed it out.

As soon as the results of my second experiment come out, I plan to post my own thread about this experiment on this website.

'There must be no barriers for freedom of inquiry. There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors.'

J. Robert Oppenheimer




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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2011, 11:22:38 PM »
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Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2011, 12:21:57 AM »
Suggested efficiency test circuit. If AC output is suspected, reverse diode D1 and add output power with diode reversed to power not reversed to get total output power.




Offline Hoppy

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2011, 12:28:27 AM »
There are some basics that allow us to compare circuits, Hoppy.  I noted that I ran with a capacitor bank for the input energy, and found a power draw of about 0.23 mW, with the LED dimly lit.
Could you do the same with your replication, since we have these test data?  Very easy to do, just requires a good cap (non-leaky as possible) and a stop watch.  I took data over 30 seconds, as detailed above.

Dr Jones,

I have had some success since my last post as I've realised that I had an incorrect Rb resistor (2K) in circuit. I picked this up somewhere at the beginning of the thread as a change but can't find reference to it now. Anyway, with 56K I get a sinusoidal waveform scoped emitter to ground and the in / out power levels measured across 1R shunt resistors (without the additional 3R) appear to be fairly closely matched on my scope at around 4mW. However, there is quite a lot of noise making it difficult to get a relable reading. The LED is very dim but easy to see in a darkened room. I've left the circuit running overnight to monitor battery voltage level - running on a 1.5V AA.

Hoppy




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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2011, 12:28:27 AM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #99 on: June 01, 2011, 02:39:48 AM »
Dr Jones,

I have had some success since my last post as I've realised that I had an incorrect Rb resistor (2K) in circuit. I picked this up somewhere at the beginning of the thread as a change but can't find reference to it now. Anyway, with 56K I get a sinusoidal waveform scoped emitter to ground and the in / out power levels measured across 1R shunt resistors (without the additional 3R) appear to be fairly closely matched on my scope at around 4mW. However, there is quite a lot of noise making it difficult to get a relable reading. The LED is very dim but easy to see in a darkened room. I've left the circuit running overnight to monitor battery voltage level - running on a 1.5V AA.

Hoppy

Good progress, Hoppy!  makes one Happy when a guy keeps going.  How do you get "4mW" on the output, exactly?  That is, does your scope do MATH, V*I, and you take the MEAN with the scope?  or what?   

You write,
Quote
"power levels measured across 1R shunt resistors"
  -- that's what I use to get current... but how do you get the voltage V(t) to go with the current, to get power?
PS -- what kind of scope are you using?

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #100 on: June 01, 2011, 03:05:37 AM »
Suggested efficiency test circuit. If AC output is suspected, reverse diode D1 and add output power with diode reversed to power not reversed to get total output power.


First -- I really like your ability to do the neat schematic diagrams, very clear.  Could I ask you to draw up in this fashion my hand-drawn circuit shown in post #2 of this thread??  Sure would appreciate it!  Will facilitate communications...

I see what you're doing in your test circuit, Xee2 --    filtering the input and output AC components (I think heavily, depending on C and R values) and using meters to measure current and Vout. Looks very much like the dual-DMM method of .99 discussed mostly over at OUR.  I would want to test this method against another method, such as the Cap/Stop-watch method we discussed yesterday.

Consider the input Power, first, using your method and the cap/watch method. 
We have some results today from Itsu, comparing these methods per my request (great guy to do this).

 Let me just quote from my response to him at OUR on this method (see http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=853.msg14342#new ):

Itsu -- I just watched your latest vid:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7x2Y0gdXWQ&feature=uploademail

Quite well done.  Thank you for this research effort.
   You are using about 2Kohms for Rb, whereas I'm using 51Kohms for Rb, in the test I did yesterday (and see my post #1).  Pls try with about 51kOhms, and a red LED, would you?  could bring us more into line.
 Notes:

1.  Yesterday, the dual - DMM method of .99 gave 34mW, today 18.7mW -- and you noted you had NOT changed the circuit.
Strange...  Does the DMM method give variable results?  or is it the circuit which changes?

2.  You did the Cap/stopwatch method and have some results -- interesting.  I attach a screen-shot of your results.
You say that the highest value is most in line with the DMM method, 12.2 mW.  Yes, but this still does not appear to agree with the dual-MM method, 18.7mW or 34mW.
Conclusion:  dual DMM-method vis-a-vis the cap/time method needs further checking.

Thanks again, Itsu.

And his latest response further indicates a problem with the DMM (meter) method:

Itsu writes:
Great, you found the video allready.

Yes, i agree, we have some differences between the 2 circuits, and indeed the dual DMM method creates different results all the time....

I will try to match the components as close as possible, starting with a new coil,[snp]

I replied:
Quote
"  This is significant!  please provide a few more examples of how this [dual-DMM method] varies, would you?  And then i hope for some comment from .99   ;)
[/quote]

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #100 on: June 01, 2011, 03:05:37 AM »
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Offline ghauff

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #101 on: June 01, 2011, 06:02:17 AM »
Hi,
   My attempt to replicate this circuit. What I can see is 67mV on a 1.5ohm resistor. The current  is flowing in the other direction for normal operation.
I used Rb=2K , Rr=1R5, R0=(5-10)k, Cb=141pF, H toroid 18 Winds bifilar 40mmOD 24mmID 17mmH,Q1 BC548,6V Battery,5mm Red LED.
The voltage across the battery is 6.3V.
I was thinking of using three 2.5 V 50Farad super capacitors and see if I can get the circuit the self run.

Thanks

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2011, 07:39:50 AM »
Hi Dr Jones.

I have replicated your Circuit. I have attached Pictures and the Calculator for others to use if they wish. I am getting COP = 2.5 at the moment. I think It may be a measurement error, but have checked three times and get the same result. Its early days for me and I will stay reserved at this point on my findings as there could be an error on my part. My goal is to make this self run like I mentioned but have not been able to make this happen yet.

I still think there is a 50/50 chance, but am convinced that some serious work will be needed to get a Bi-Polar Switch like Ron Cole/John Bedini's to make this run itsself.

All the best, and I will post more soon.

  Chris

P.S. My components are slightly modified compared to the schematic. Sense resistor = 1.5 Ohm. Load Resistor was changed also.I will post more information soon.


Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #103 on: June 01, 2011, 08:05:27 AM »
Hi Dr Jones.

I have replicated your Circuit. I have attached Pictures and the Calculator for others to use if they wish. I am getting COP = 2.5 at the moment. I think It may be a measurement error, but have checked three times and get the same result. Its early days for me and I will stay reserved at this point on my findings as there could be an error on my part. My goal is to make this self run like I mentioned but have not been able to make this happen yet.

I still think there is a 50/50 chance, but am convinced that some serious work will be needed to get a Bi-Polar Switch like Ron Cole/John Bedini's to make this run itsself.

All the best, and I will post more soon.

  Chris

P.S. My components are slightly modified compared to the schematic. Sense resistor = 1.5 Ohm. Load Resistor was changed also.I will post more information soon.

Thank so much for your work on this, Chris.  Cool -- and great diagrams also.

  I certainly understand your wish to remain reserved at this stage.  As I said, my claim is also "evidence for" at this stage, not "proof of" super-efficiency.  (I prefer the term "super-efficiency", n>1, to "overunity"; OU carries a lot of negative baggage unfortunately).  It occurs to me that you may be the first, or one of the first, to build a "proof of", and a "self-sustaining device" would do the job admirably.

 I believe you will have to first rectify the output before you can feed it back into the input.  I have an idea how to do this; but I'm going to leave this to your ingenuity at this time (because I think your solution might be better than mine anyway, and partly because I'm going on the road with my wife right away).

My sincere thanks and best wishes,
Steven Jones

PS -- may I quote you to others?  and display your well-done schematic diagram?

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #104 on: June 01, 2011, 08:28:32 AM »
Hi Dr Jones,

I think at this stage my replication has too much room for error, so for this reason, may be best if I work a bit more on this first. Certianly after i get more results, that would be no problem.

All the best

  Chris


 

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