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### Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 842933 times)

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2011, 06:14:46 AM »
Nul-pts:
Quote
Steven, apologies - your Ein calc method is good, but Pin needs units of seconds, not minutes]

Pin = 6.87/30 = 0.23mW
and Xee2 -- got it also, and others.
LOL - if you're wrong then at least two of us are!

...fortunately, i suspect we're both correct!

You guys are indeed both correct, and I'm glad you are!  Yes, Watts = J/sec, of course.  I asked that someone check my math as I was rushing out the door, and you did -- and I thank you.

You both get A's on this  quiz....

Seriously, I do appreciate it.  And this means that the power input is really close to zero, at
Pin = 6.87J/30s = 0.23mW[/quote]

The mean power is close to zero as seen on both the Tek 3230 and my little ATTEN, as I've been saying-- you are correct about this also, LARRY-C, and thanks for noting the strong oscillating component in the input power also.  You got it right.

(Pls be easy on .99 though, a fellow who has taught me some things patiently and who has been soaking up the rays in Hawaii.  He's back now.)

Now -- the LED on the output leg still lights up, though dimly... at 0.23mW input power...  hmmm...
I've repeated the measurement now several times at voltages between approx. 1.2 and 2 Vin from the cap...
Always the input power is in this small range, around 0.2 - .3 mW  input power...

There are three of us now in my small town working on this little circuit!  Bob is planning to increase Cb, slow the thing down, and see what happens.  All three of us have our own scopes, so this is getting fun...
BUT... it is still just "evidence for" OU at this stage, not a proof yet. I hope that is clear.

(PS -- I helped my expecting daughter most of the day, that's why I was slow in responding.  She's preparing for the baby coming soon!  proud grand-pa here...)

#### WilbyInebriated

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3141
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2011, 06:27:55 AM »
Did you not see my post where I explained my desire to test the DMM method on Rose's oscillator?
yes. in point of fact i have seen you express this 'desire' several times over the last two months. i have yet to see you do so in actuality.

I've been on vacation away from my lab, so as far as getting it done since I've been working on this stuff, it's been quite impossible in the last three weeks. Finishing the sims and doing the technical walk-through is all I can do right now.
i'm not talking about the last three weeks... i am talking about the fact that YOU told us you would be working on it over the weekend... TWO MONTHS AGO.

When I return and have a chance to get settled in (4 hour time difference) etc. I will get around to building the oscillator and making the tests, but I did not know you were assigned to be the schedule keeper and to hold everyone to their proposed offerings. If I choose to work on something else or nothing at all after I propose to do something (re. a couple months ago), that is my prerogative.

Is that quite alright with you my friend?

.99
i am not your schedule keeper nor did i ever suggest i was... drop the gross hyperbole darren. what i am saying is don't go pimping your proposed method as 'golden' when it has NEVER been verified. what you choose to do IS your prerogative, so is making promises you don't keep i guess...

let me try saying that another way. put your money where your mouth is or don't open it.  is that clear enough my friend?

edit: congrats on the expected scion steven!

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2011, 07:34:51 AM »
Thanks, Larry-C.

So I think we have a straightforward way to measure the input power Pin without an oscilloscope, using a cap and a stopwatch.

Measuring Pout will be more difficult.
On the output leg of the circuit, the voltage shows large swings, typically 12 V or so Vpp.  One could put a rectifier in this output leg, then charge a cap...  As long as that did not adversely affect the circuit performance.

I would replace the LED with a diode in the same direction, so that less power is dumped on the diode-LED, and more on the output Capacitor...  Wish I had more time for this, but I've a long-planned road trip coming up Thursday, so away from my home lab for about ten days at that point... sigh...  missing out on some of the fun here...

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2011, 09:44:45 AM »
yes. in point of fact i have seen you express this 'desire' several times over the last two months. i have yet to see you do so in actuality.
I've been busy on various things. If I change my mind and choose to do some other work or project, even after stating that I would work on something over the weekend, it's really not your concern, nor should you make it so.

Quote
i'm not talking about the last three weeks... i am talking about the fact that YOU told us you would be working on it over the weekend... TWO MONTHS AGO.
I've been busy on various things. If I change my mind and choose to do some other work or project, even after stating that I would work on something over the weekend, it's really not your concern, nor should you make it so.

Quote
i am not your schedule keeper nor did i ever suggest i was...
Correct. You are however acting as if you are.

Quote
what i am saying is don't go pimping your proposed method as 'golden' when it has NEVER been verified.
Prove it has never been verified, then you may have some basis for your assertion.

Quote
what you choose to do IS your prerogative, so is making promises you don't keep i guess...
Prove that I used the word "promise". If I use the word "promise" then I will come through. Anything other than that and it will be as time permits.

Quote
let me try saying that another way. put your money where your mouth is or don't open it.  is that clear enough my friend?
Not sure what's gotten into you my friend, but when it comes to technical matters, I speak the truth the best I know it, and when I am wrong, I admit it. That won't ever change, so pipe up as often as you wish.

.99

#### WilbyInebriated

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3141
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2011, 12:45:31 PM »
yeah my bad, you never actually used the word "promise" and i busted tk's balls once for doing the same thing to me so... mea culpa on that point. i'm sure you'll get it done sometime, you are a man of your word are you not? i guess i can understand how easy it is to get sidetracked by 'higher profile' threads and your no oscope measurement thread really didn't get the attention it deserved, here and at your site. it's elegantly simple, so i am as puzzled as you as to why so few noticed it. i was hoping you would be all over it seeing as how it would be a great procedure that would help a lot of people that didn't have access to expensive equipment make/take valid measurements. regardless, better late than never i guess.

@all
here is a gratuitous plug for poynt's thread: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10564
apologies for the interruption.

poynt, it's kind of buried in the 'Discussion board help and admin topics' forum, maybe you could talk stephan into placing it in a forum that gets a little more traffic? heck, i think it should be made a sticky thread when ( i almost said if... ) you actually verify it.

#### yssuraxu_697

• Full Member
• Posts: 122
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #80 on: May 31, 2011, 01:03:39 PM »
Since I'm persistent *********** I repeat the question:

"BTW When using very large capacitors, is capacitive reactance considered? For example 40000uF has Xc=10e-7ohms at 4Mhz."

In plain english: LARGE CAPACITORS ARE SHORT CIRCUIT FOR HIGH FREQUENCY.

So how you expect to loop this with 40KuF caps? Or is this intentional feature?

#### nul-points

• Hero Member
• Posts: 995
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2011, 01:35:23 PM »
Since I'm persistent *********** I repeat the question:
[...]

hi

it's evident from the Prof's last few posts that he has been, and will be, busy with family commitments for a while

greetings
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

#### yssuraxu_697

• Full Member
• Posts: 122
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #82 on: May 31, 2011, 01:57:51 PM »

On the contrary. I think most people here are too patient reading endless pages of near-pointless arguments while paying no attention to fundamental issues with designs

Good example is Rosemary's thread. What was SNR ratio there... 5%?
Do we want research forum or pub here?

Nobody will post the "good stuff" on the pub wall you know.

#### xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #83 on: May 31, 2011, 04:04:23 PM »
Since I'm persistent *********** I repeat the question:

"BTW When using very large capacitors, is capacitive reactance considered? For example 40000uF has Xc=10e-7ohms at 4Mhz."

In plain english: LARGE CAPACITORS ARE SHORT CIRCUIT FOR HIGH FREQUENCY.

So how you expect to loop this with 40KuF caps? Or is this intentional feature?

Large capacitors look like short to high frequency but they still charge and discharge with each cycle. The problem with large capacitor is that the internal resistance increases with frequency thus they have more energy lost per cycle to the internal resistance as frequency increases. You may need to do some research to understand that. In the self running Joule thief circuit I posted, the capacitor is at DC because the diode converts the AC to DC.

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #84 on: May 31, 2011, 05:05:09 PM »
Since I'm persistent *********** I repeat the question:

"BTW When using very large capacitors, is capacitive reactance considered? For example 40000uF has Xc=10e-7ohms at 4Mhz."

In plain english: LARGE CAPACITORS ARE SHORT CIRCUIT FOR HIGH FREQUENCY.

So how you expect to loop this with 40KuF caps? Or is this intentional feature?

As noted above, I do not intend to use the output without some kind of rectification;  I wrote above:

Quote
So I think we have a straightforward way to measure the input power Pin without an oscilloscope, using a cap and a stopwatch.

Measuring Pout will be more difficult.
On the output leg of the circuit, the voltage shows large swings, typically 12 V or so Vpp.  One could put a rectifier in this output leg, then charge a cap...  As long as that did not adversely affect the circuit performance.

I am interested in finding a reliable way to measure output Power, without using an oscilloscope.

It is true that I attempted to loop the power back from the output leg, but this was a preliminary effort after some rectification-- and I have not had time to pursue this nor have I presented even preliminary results from that effort.  It is on hold as I prepare for the imminent long trip.

The results provided above were with the four caps charged to a voltage which I told you, measured, then connected into the circuit to provide the input-voltage, in place of the battery.  This was not the circuit in which I attempted to loop power back -- just the DUT discussed by me in posts 1&2.  After each 30-second run, I stopped the run and measured the final voltage of the caps, to determine the input energy and then the input Power as delineated above in this thread.

Are you saying there is something wrong with this method for determining the input power?

#### yssuraxu_697

• Full Member
• Posts: 122
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2011, 06:11:09 PM »
The problem with large capacitor is that the internal resistance increases with frequency

Very good, maybe it will spark a discussion how to make system that does not self-run better.
Indeed ESR falls, Xc falls, but ESL rises. This makes "sweet" spot in cap freq response.
In general polypropylene caps should be good in terms of ESR while electrolytic are horrible.

As noted above, I do not intend to use the output without some kind of rectification;

DC pulse goes clean thru also. I'm using this effect in my pulse motor controller timing arrangement.

I am interested in finding a reliable way to measure output Power

I think that there is no other way besides looping or resistor heating. Other ways will spark endless discussions.
But you cannot argue with 1L of boiling water, for example.

I have seen endless burning of human resources on some other forums because some other forms of measurement were choosen...

#### prm

• Newbie
• Posts: 3
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #86 on: May 31, 2011, 07:03:02 PM »
I am afraid I'm touching a tar baby here, but... here goes.

First, I am glad that you are using caps, because that does give you an accurate way of estimating the ENERGY that you are inputting to the circuit in a given amount of time. Please for the moment forget about POWER and especially "mean power".
Energy is not power and power is not energy. Very high power multiplication factors may easily be achieved in oscillating circuits with no gain in energy. And I think we are all clear that it is ENERGY that is the important parameter when claims of Overunity or COP>1 are being made.

Now.... you can measure the energy output of your JT by integrating the INSTANTANEOUS power curve over a time period. There is no need to get any kind of average power reading, in fact this is a major (and common) error.
If your scope can only do the one math function at a time, then you must do the integration manually. There are several ways to do this. First, get away from the habit of displaying so many cycles on the screen that they are uninterpretable. Display only 3 or 4 complete waveforms, or even a single one.
OK, so now you display, say, two complete cycles of the instantaneous power curve. Overlay a piece of tracing graph paper on the screen and trace out the curves carefully. The integral of this curve is the VOLUME occupied  by the surface defined by the vertical dimension (the inst. power value) and the horizontal dimension (time). Using the scope's graticle and the horiz and vert settings, calibrate your little graph paper squares. (they will be in Joules). Then count up the area of your waveform.... and don't forget to multiply that by enough to fill up your known 30-second input energy from the caps.

Compare and contrast.  You are comparing Energy IN, using the correct calculation you have shown above, over a 30 second period, with the Energy OUT, which is integral(VxI)dt, from 0 to 30 seconds. Only if Energy OUT exceeds Energy IN is there any reason to get excited at all.

No "average power" or especially "RMS voltage and current" goes into the calculation at all.

Of course, if your scope will do integration, your problem is solved.

(I get 6.8 microJoules; I suppose you are using "mF" and "mJ" to mean microFarads and microJoules. I am more used to using "m" as "milli" and "u" (like greek mu) for micro.)

EDIT.. Whoops, sorry, my bad... you DO mean "milliJoules". I misread the size of your cap bank, I didn't realize you were using 10,000 uF x 4. Apologies. I accept your 6.8 milliJoules figure.

Hello, everyone.  I am new to this forum and here is my 10 cents worth.

The above post of TinselKoala is the crux of the whole matter.  It is not power per se that is the relevant issue, it is energy.  And this energy can only be ascertained by integrating power with respect to time.

Of course, this is easier said then done.  If the oscilloscope has the capability of integrating the power, then this feature should be used, assuming it is accurate.

If integration of the instantaneous power can't be done by the oscilloscope then as TinselKoala points out, one must find some other way.  Using the method of a Riemann sum,for example, one must slice the time increments of the power signals as small as possible, then multiply these time slices by the instantaneous amplitude of the power for that time slice, and then sum over the total products of the times slices x instantaneous power amplitude.

For this first-order approximation to approach an exact result, the time slices must be made as small as possible. As the time slices approach zero, the amplitude of the signal approaches a constant value.

There is no other way for an accurate determination of over/unity of this circuit unless one uses this Riemann sum approximation approach. Emphasizing power and only power leads to misleading conclusions.  Energy is king, not power.

#### Hoppy

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4324
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #87 on: May 31, 2011, 07:50:30 PM »
John Bedini has always stressed the importance of calculating energy in and out when calculating COP for his monopole motors and the like, so I don't see why the approach to measuring this circuit should be any different. I've built Stevens circuit and cannot get it anywhere close to self-running. Before anyone goes to the bother of calculating energy for this device, just let the battery run the device over a period of time because as with any Joule Thief type circuit, it will run right down over time and that's a certainty!

Hoppy

#### xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2011, 08:10:06 PM »
@ JouleSeeker

If you do not believe amp meter you can use this circuit to measure the input power. By looking at the voltage on the scope you can see the amount of noise in the current. I think you will find the result is very close to that with just an amp meter.

NOTE - there will be very little noise in current.

#### jmmac

• Newbie
• Posts: 16
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2011, 08:39:03 PM »
prm,

As I understand it:

- In the original circuit with battery, Dr. Jones used his digital oscilloscope to calculate the mean instantaneous power in and out. The instantaneous power: P(t) = I(t) * U(t) which changes over time. If you calculate the average of that instantaneous power over several cycles, you have a good measurement of the true power (oscilloscope measures current and voltage over time and multiplies the 2, then calculates the mean).
I believe the mean power in and mean power out were calculated (measured) at the same time with 2 oscilloscopes.
In conclusion: calculating mean instantaneous power over a period of time is equivalent to measuring the energy. Power is Work (Energy) by unit of time.

- In the experiment powered by the large capacitor, the energy came from that capacitor and you can calculate the total energy it contains knowing the capacity and it's voltage. Knowing the initial and final voltage of the capacitor and the amount of time it was connected to the circuit, you can calculate the energy it gave to the circuit in that time and the mean power. That value was calculated and is very small.

Regards,
Jaime

Hello, everyone.  I am new to this forum and here is my 10 cents worth.

The above post of TinselKoala is the crux of the whole matter.  It is not power per se that is the relevant issue, it is energy.  And this energy can only be ascertained by integrating power with respect to time.

Of course, this is easier said then done.  If the oscilloscope has the capability of integrating the power, then this feature should be used, assuming it is accurate.

If integration of the instantaneous power can't be done by the oscilloscope then as TinselKoala points out, one must find some other way.  Using the method of a Riemann sum,for example, one must slice the time increments of the power signals as small as possible, then multiply these time slices by the instantaneous amplitude of the power for that time slice, and then sum over the total products of the times slices x instantaneous power amplitude.

For this first-order approximation to approach an exact result, the time slices must be made as small as possible. As the time slices approach zero, the amplitude of the signal approaches a constant value.

There is no other way for an accurate determination of over/unity of this circuit unless one uses this Riemann sum approximation approach. Emphasizing power and only power leads to misleading conclusions.  Energy is king, not power.