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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 758516 times)

poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2011, 11:23:35 PM »
It is a good thing you are a physics professor. I would have gotten this wrong on a test. I get:

( 500 ) * ( 40e-6 ) * ( 1.385^2 - 1.255^2 )

=  6.864 milli Joules total energy

therefore over 30 seconds =  6.864/30  =   0.2288 mW

note > watt = Joule/sec

What did I do wrong?

You should not square then subtract the capacitor voltage. You subtract the voltage, THEN square it.

.99

EDIT: Yep, you guys are correct. Ignore the above.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 12:31:50 AM by poynt99 »

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2011, 11:23:35 PM »

xee2

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• Posts: 1610
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2011, 11:50:19 PM »
You should not square then subtract the capacitor voltage. You subtract the voltage, THEN square it.

.99

Thanks.

nul-points

• Hero Member
• Posts: 995
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2011, 12:01:14 AM »
Thanks.

xee

you, me and TinselKoala all agree that the Ein = 6.8mJ

you and i, correctly divided 6.8 by 30 seconds to give Pin = 0.23mW

you didn't do anything wrong!

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2011, 12:01:14 AM »

xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2011, 12:06:13 AM »
You should not square then subtract the capacitor voltage. You subtract the voltage, THEN square it.

Hmmm... I do not agree.

starting energy = 0.5 * C * V1 * V1

end energy = 0.5 * C * V2 * V2

there fore energy change = (0.5 * C * V1 * V1) - (0.5 * C * V2 * V2) = 0.5 * C * (V1 * V1 - V2 * V2)

poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2011, 12:34:04 AM »
Yep, agreed. Sorry.

.99

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2011, 12:34:04 AM »

LarryC

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• Posts: 911
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2011, 01:22:46 AM »
What I am suggesting is this; if the scope and DMM methods do not agree, one of them must be wrong. DC power sources have a power factor of 1.0, therefore heavily averaging the current and voltage measurements is not only the best way to measure the INPUT power, but it is the easiest and most accessible.

DC power factor is 1.0. True in most cases, but not in this circuit. Check out the attached picture, from the first video showing the input volts, current and V x I, and note the current trace, showing positive and negative current.  DMM method of true rms V x I does not take into account phase differences. Steven's Tek measurements methods does account for the phase difference and seems correct.

In fact, it appears that some energy is being returned to the battery.

Regards, Larry

WilbyInebriated

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• Posts: 3143
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2011, 01:24:05 AM »
hey poynty, did you ever verify that "Measuring INPUT Power Accurately and with no Oscilloscope" with anything other than a sim? i see you pimping it all over, yet your thread about it is still locked and you have been promising updates... yet there are none.  i asked you about after a month of silence and now another month has gone by. what gives?

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2011, 01:24:05 AM »

xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2011, 01:58:53 AM »
In fact, it appears that some energy is being returned to the battery.

Yes. When the output coil magnetic field collapses a pulse of energy is pushed back into the battery. This was documented in the Joule ringer thread.

xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2011, 02:09:30 AM »
DMM method of true rms V x I does not take into account phase differences. Steven's Tek measurements methods does account for the phase difference and seems correct.

If the power is being computed from the instantaneous current and voltage the power factor does not apply. That is only needed when computing using the peak or RMS values.

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2011, 02:09:30 AM »

poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2011, 02:26:53 AM »
Larry, I was writing a nice long post, then I was interrupted and my pc shut down, so I lost it.

Suffice it to say that since we are dealing with a DC source, all that need be done is to multiply the battery voltage (which is 99% DC when measured directly across the battery terminals, unless the battery is in poor or discharged condition), times the heavily averaged CSR voltage. Then factor in the value of the CSR (x4 if using a 0.25 Ohm for eg.) and the result is the average power from the battery.

The PF=1 for a DC source holds in all cases.

.99

poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2011, 02:35:45 AM »
hey poynty, did you ever verify that "Measuring INPUT Power Accurately and with no Oscilloscope" with anything other than a sim?
No.

Quote
i see you pimping it all over, yet your thread about it is still locked and you have been promising updates... yet there are none.  i asked you about after a month of silence and now another month has gone by. what gives?
It works precisely as discussed. Proving it on the bench (and I shall) is simply academic. Ask again in about a month's time if you haven't seen anything from me yet. I've been a bit busy with 3 weeks vacation and working on the Rose circuit here in there. I'm on my way home from vacation today.

.99

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2011, 02:35:45 AM »

WilbyInebriated

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• Posts: 3143
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2011, 05:05:17 AM »
No.
imagine that...
It works precisely as discussed. Proving it on the bench (and I shall) is simply academic. Ask again in about a month's time if you haven't seen anything from me yet. I've been a bit busy with 3 weeks vacation and working on the Rose circuit here in there. I'm on my way home from vacation today.

.99
i'm still waiting on that verification... academic or otherwise. don't worry about me asking again, next time you pimp it, i'll be there... so you've been on vacation for 3 weeks, how is that relevant? you told us in your locked thread you would have verification over the weekend... that was two (2) months ago. i suggest you pull a couple irons out of the fire and actually verify your procedure before pimping it any further. i know you'd bet your house on it... but that's just not science.

poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2011, 05:46:00 AM »
imagine that...i'm still waiting on that verification... academic or otherwise. don't worry about me asking again, next time you pimp it, i'll be there... so you've been on vacation for 3 weeks, how is that relevant? you told us in your locked thread you would have verification over the weekend... that was two (2) months ago. i suggest you pull a couple irons out of the fire and actually verify your procedure before pimping it any further. i know you'd bet your house on it... but that's just not science.

Did you not see my post where I explained my desire to test the DMM method on Rose's oscillator?

I've been on vacation away from my lab, so as far as getting it done since I've been working on this stuff, it's been quite impossible in the last three weeks. Finishing the sims and doing the technical walk-through is all I can do right now.

When I return and have a chance to get settled in (4 hour time difference) etc. I will get around to building the oscillator and making the tests, but I did not know you were assigned to be the schedule keeper and to hold everyone to their proposed offerings. If I choose to work on something else or nothing at all after I propose to do something (re. a couple months ago), that is my prerogative.

Is that quite alright with you my friend?

.99

LarryC

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• Posts: 911
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2011, 05:49:54 AM »
Larry, I was writing a nice long post, then I was interrupted and my pc shut down, so I lost it.

Suffice it to say that since we are dealing with a DC source, all that need be done is to multiply the battery voltage (which is 99% DC when measured directly across the battery terminals, unless the battery is in poor or discharged condition), times the heavily averaged CSR voltage. Then factor in the value of the CSR (x4 if using a 0.25 Ohm for eg.) and the result is the average power from the battery.

The PF=1 for a DC source holds in all cases.

Thanks xee2 and WilbryInebriated(love that name) for your responses.

@poynt99: What a pile of BS. Please present your proof that ignores all professional EE power measurements.

Regards, Larry

poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2011, 05:56:52 AM »
Thanks xee2 and WilbryInebriated(love that name) for your responses.

@poynt99: What a pile of BS. Please present your proof that ignores all professional EE power measurements.

Regards, Larry

What would sufficient proof be for you?

.99