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### Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 921076 times)

#### powercat

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1091
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2011, 02:49:32 PM »
Hi Professor
poynt99 is one of the best person I know when it comes to measurements, there is a thread called
Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011,where there is a claim
of OU so far no one on this forum has matched those results and only a small minority elsewhere stand by that claim of OU, this circuit has been around for two years on numerous forums

poynt99 has ben trying to tell the inventor about the measurement errors  for quite some time, and only recently appears to be finally getting through, and dare I say it, it could be now looking promising.

I hope you don't end up in a long drawn out measurement argument, the best way to resolve it would be to make a self-runner as has already been suggested.

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2011, 04:53:34 PM »
I urge you to reconsider Professor.

When dealing with DC power sources, heavy averaging of both the battery voltage and current signals is the most reliable way to measure input power. You simply multiply the two DMM values together (taking the CSR value into account), and the result is an accurate net average INPUT power measurement.

.99

Glad to hear from you on this forum as well, .99.    It was indeed your suggestion to use the Tek DPO scope to calculate the MEAN input power that I have been using, as explained above.

And you have also suggested that, as above:  "You simply multiply the two DMM values together..."

I understand your approach to measure the input power Pin by measuring the current across CSRin and multiplying by the battery voltage. However, when I look at the INSTANTANEOUS Pin waveform on the Tek 3032, I see that Pin fluctuates around zero, and the MEAN (not RMS) value of the Pin is close to zero.  (Same result using my ATTEN scope and looking at the power waveform, integrating by hand over one cycle.)  This is a significant result -- and I would be surprised if it is just wrong; but I certainly welcome further testing as measurment errors at this stage are certainly possible.  In any case, this result from the Power waveform on the Tek 3032 oscilloscope, evidently disagrees with the dual-DMM method used by Itsu, discussed above.

Further, when I ran this sj1 circuit using a single AA rechargeable battery overnight,  the battery voltage had not dropped measurably the next morning, over nine hours running.  So I do not think that the circuit was drawing 40 mW as calculated by Itsu in his video, using the dual-DMM-multiply method.

I would like to see a direct comparison of the two methods for evaluating Pin, on this particular circuit.  You have a Tek DPO available, .99.  If the MEAN power input as determined using the DPO differs from the dual-DMM method, as appears to be the case, then a resolution of the discrepancy would be useful.
(I should note that while the Tek 3032 I've borrowed is available at the university, I have to use it there -- about 70 miles distant from my home.  I do not get there often at this time.)

I take a time window (2useconds typically) in which there are many cycles, to acquire a good value for the Mean power, both for input and output power.   The Tek 3032 math multiply function allows me to get INSTANTANEOUS power by multiplying for me Vin (t) * Iin (t) -- and this power waveform is plotted (red waveforms above).  Then the MEAN is extracted over numerous cycles.

As you know, .99, we discussed the merits of the MEAN-power (V(t)*I(t))  method  at OUResearch at length over the past several months.  Are you now saying that the dual-DMM method is more reliable than the MEAN power method?

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2011, 05:26:27 PM »
This weekend I have placed four 10,000 uF caps in parallel, and have managed to get the system to feed back into these caps.  There is NO battery in the system, only caps.  The voltage across the caps is nearly constant now, dropping very slowly with LED lit and no CSR's --  my problem is that the caps detached from the circuit drop in voltage at a measurably significant rate.  This particular system does not appear to have demonstrable OU, but again the leaky caps are a problem.

As noted earlier, I am trying to find caps that do not leak so fast, or at all.  Any ideas on this would be helpful.
Edit:  Found some caps that leak very little... more later. thx
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 08:15:14 PM by JouleSeeker »

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2011, 06:22:34 PM »
A brief comment on
a possible source of anomalous energy that we know very little about (except for its existence):

"What Is Dark Energy?

More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the Universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy.
Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe. "...

"Another explanation for dark energy is that it is a new kind of dynamical energy fluid or field, something that fills all of space but something whose effect on the expansion of the Universe is the opposite of that of matter and normal energy. Some theorists have named this "quintessence," after the fifth element of the Greek philosophers. But, if quintessence is the answer, we still don't know what it is like, what it interacts with, or why it exists. So the mystery continues. "

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2011, 07:13:02 PM »
Professor,

Under ideal conditions, the scope method is accurate.

What I am suggesting is this; if the scope and DMM methods do not agree, one of them must be wrong. DC power sources have a power factor of 1.0, therefore heavily averaging the current and voltage measurements is not only the best way to measure the INPUT power, but it is the easiest and most accessible.

.99

#### xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2011, 07:13:51 PM »
As noted earlier, I am trying to find caps that do not leak so fast, or at all.  Any ideas on this would be helpful.

All electrolytic capacitors have internal resistance that drains energy and causes voltage drop. My 10,000 uF caps drop from 5.5 volts to about 5.0 volts in about a minute. The best capacitors for holding charge are silver mica caps.

However, this should not be a problem, since a circuit with 8x power gain should be adding power much faster than it is being lost in the capacitor.

Congratulations on getting the circuit to self run. That is a big step towards showing that it is over unity.

I like to perform reality checks. If your circuit is producing 8x power gain, then putting 1/2 watts in should give 4 watts out. To test if this is happening you could use an 1/8 watt resistor as a load and see if it gets very hot with 1/2 watts input. It should if it is really getting 4 watts into it.

#### nul-points

• Hero Member
• Posts: 995
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2011, 08:26:13 PM »
hello Steven

welcome to the wonderful world of 'alternative energy'  - a minefield of measurement issues and previously-uncharted system behaviour!

i am not yet convinced that a true 'overunity' electrical system should always be capable of self-sustained operation with only a capacitor as it's main energy 'buffer'

so, for example, i was unprepared for the moment in Romero's video when he disconnected the battery and the system continued to run without any apparent impact of this (using only a capacitor and rotor momentum as its short-term energy buffers) for a further 15 minutes or so, until he switched off the device

obviously, if, as appears to be the case with Romero's device, you have a circuit which is capable of self-sustained operation without requiring a battery, then all well and good - but this is only a confidence booster for us in being able to accept what is claimed - ie. 'i'll believe it if i can see it'

the objection of 'measurement error' is immediately redundant if, for example, a group of people witness a 'powered, heavier-than-air, contraption' run along the grass, take to the air, and perform a circuit of Kitty Hawk airspace!

i don't feel 'uneasy' about claiming 'overunity' which still depends on the presence of a battery (otherwise i wouldn't be performing the cell experiments recorded at the blog linked below!) - a battery is after all, in some sense, just a rather longer term energy 'buffer'

obviously the main difference between a battery and a capacitor is that (we believe) a battery is largely a 'chemically' produced charge separation, whilst (we believe) that a capacitor is largely an 'electrically' produced charge separation

and it's because of the possibly more complex micro-scale processes at work in a battery that i can imagine that it's possible for a battery to play a significant role in achieving 'overunity' within a particular system (ie. the battery may have to be considered as just one of many components within a particular 'overunity' process)

therefore, if we can accept that it is still 'ok' for an overunity system to require a battery, we just need to account for it in our burden of proof

surely the battery-related equivalent of the 'self-runs only from capacitor' type demonstration is this:

the system is measured to perform a significantly greater total amount of work than the previously measured average Watt-hour capacity of that battery (measured using a conventional dissipative load, eg. a resistor, or heater, etc)

in other words, a more formal test along the lines of your informal test:  'i left the system running overnight, with no measurable drop in battery voltage'

the confirmation of 'overunity' in a battery-dependent system can either take the form of more energy converted in the same time (ie. higher continuous power out than drawn from the battery) or it could be just that the system is capable of sustaining a certain power level for significantly longer than the Watt-hour capacity of the battery (where 'significantly' longer may also be 'indefinitely' longer, effectively)

since you have made your initial findings on a system which includes a battery, why not make your next step to be a 'batteries included' style test? (using a suitably small capacity battery for convenience!)

this will either confirm or deny your instantaneous measurement results

if the new test results prove positive, then it would be interesting to move on to a 'capacitor only' style test and see if this also provides confirmation - or if instead it produces another anomaly (eg. 'overunity with battery' does not necessarily imply 'overunity with capacitor')

of course, if the battery style test does NOT provide confirmation of the 'instrumentation' results - then see the 1st paragraph of this post!

looking forward with interest to your next steps!
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2011, 09:00:12 PM »

Meanwhile, a quick test today:

Professor,

Under ideal conditions, the scope method is accurate.

What I am suggesting is this; if the scope and DMM methods do not agree, one of them must be wrong. DC power sources have a power factor of 1.0, therefore heavily averaging the current and voltage measurements is not only the best way to measure the INPUT power, but it is the easiest and most accessible.

.99

I got 10 mW in on one early sj1 system (see reply #1 above), using the Tek 3032.  Itsu got 40 mW input power using the DMM method on his system.

Limited time today (holiday w/ family) -- but I did a quick test, another way to measure Pin.
Four 10K uF caps, to run the sj1 circuit.  By measuring the volts before and after 30 seconds on the caps, I can calculate input power easily.

delta-E = 1/2 C(Vi**2 - Vf**2) ,  Pin = deltaE / delta-T  , 30 seconds.  C = 40mF.

Start, Vinitial = 1.385V  , Vfinal =  1.255V

So delta-E = 6.8 mJoules.
and Pin = 6.8/o.5min = 13.6 mW,   pls check my math.

in reasonable agreement with the Tek-scope measurement under similar conditions, 10 mW
(see reply #1 for the data, Pin on the left).

Again, the Tek3032 is distant from here, so I can't do the two measurements within minutes, but I think this tends to verify the scope method.

I would ask Itsu to do the same thing on his sj1 circuit, and compare with the dual-DMM method.  I like to check things out, especially when measurement methods appear to disagree.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2011, 09:23:24 PM »
I am afraid I'm touching a tar baby here, but... here goes.

First, I am glad that you are using caps, because that does give you an accurate way of estimating the ENERGY that you are inputting to the circuit in a given amount of time. Please for the moment forget about POWER and especially "mean power".
Energy is not power and power is not energy. Very high power multiplication factors may easily be achieved in oscillating circuits with no gain in energy. And I think we are all clear that it is ENERGY that is the important parameter when claims of Overunity or COP>1 are being made.

Now.... you can measure the energy output of your JT by integrating the INSTANTANEOUS power curve over a time period. There is no need to get any kind of average power reading, in fact this is a major (and common) error.
If your scope can only do the one math function at a time, then you must do the integration manually. There are several ways to do this. First, get away from the habit of displaying so many cycles on the screen that they are uninterpretable. Display only 3 or 4 complete waveforms, or even a single one.
OK, so now you display, say, two complete cycles of the instantaneous power curve. Overlay a piece of tracing graph paper on the screen and trace out the curves carefully. The integral of this curve is the VOLUME occupied  by the surface defined by the vertical dimension (the inst. power value) and the horizontal dimension (time). Using the scope's graticle and the horiz and vert settings, calibrate your little graph paper squares. (they will be in Joules). Then count up the area of your waveform.... and don't forget to multiply that by enough to fill up your known 30-second input energy from the caps.

Compare and contrast.  You are comparing Energy IN, using the correct calculation you have shown above, over a 30 second period, with the Energy OUT, which is integral(VxI)dt, from 0 to 30 seconds. Only if Energy OUT exceeds Energy IN is there any reason to get excited at all.

No "average power" or especially "RMS voltage and current" goes into the calculation at all.

Of course, if your scope will do integration, your problem is solved.

(I get 6.8 microJoules; I suppose you are using "mF" and "mJ" to mean microFarads and microJoules. I am more used to using "m" as "milli" and "u" (like greek mu) for micro.)

EDIT.. Whoops, sorry, my bad... you DO mean "milliJoules". I misread the size of your cap bank, I didn't realize you were using 10,000 uF x 4. Apologies. I accept your 6.8 milliJoules figure.

#### nul-points

• Hero Member
• Posts: 995
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2011, 09:25:39 PM »
[...]
Meanwhile, a quick test today:
Four 10K uF caps, to run the sj1 circuit.  By measuring the volts before and after 30 seconds on the caps, I can calculate input power easily.

delta-E = 1/2 C(Vi**2 - Vf**2) ,  Pin = deltaE / delta-T  , 30 seconds.  C = 40mF.

Start, Vinitial = 1.385V  , Vfinal =  1.255V

So delta-E = 6.8 mJoules.
and Pin = 6.8/o.5min = 13.6 mW,   pls check my math.

in reasonable agreement with the Tek-scope measurement under similar conditions, 10 mW
(see reply #1 for the data, Pin on the left).
[...]

hi Steven

i think you have an incorrect method for calculating Pin

[(multiple) EDITs: (to clear up my mess!  LOL)
a Joule is a Watt-second - i see you've divided Ein by units of minutes;

Also - thanks to TK for spotting my transcription error!
Steven, apologies - your Ein calc method is good, but Pin needs units of seconds, not minutes]

Pin = 6.87/30 = 0.23mW

another potential issue to note - the cap value can be +/- 10-20%

when doing these calcs, it's wise to measure the cap value

of course, for a 'ball-park' calculation it's not necessary!

hope this helps
np

PS  i admire your other 'extra-mural' work , investigating & providing low-cost solar cooking solutions for developing countries!

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 09:45:58 PM by nul-points »

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2011, 09:36:51 PM »
hi Steven

i think you have an incorrect method for calculating Ein

you should calculate the Energy stored in C for each voltage, start & end

THEN subtract to get total

hence:-

40mF
1.385V => 38.37mJ
1.225V => 30.01mJ
Ein 8.36mJ

Pin = 8.36/0.5 = 16.72mW

another potential issue to note - the cap value can be +/- 10-20%

when doing these calcs, it's wise to measure the cap value

of course, for a 'ball-park' calculation it's not necessary!

hope this helps
np

PS  i admire your other 'extra-mural' work , investigating & providing low-cost solar cooking solutions for developing countries!

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Vfinal is 1.255, not 1.225 as you have it. The algebra is correct, both methods give the same answer, but you've got to use the same input numbers !!

(CVinitVinit)/2 - (CVfinalVfinal)/2 = (C/2)(ViVi)-(C/2)(VfVf) = (C/2)(ViVi-VfVf)

#### yssuraxu_697

• Full Member
• Posts: 122
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2011, 10:32:28 PM »
BTW When using very large capacitors, is capacitive reactance considered?
For example 40000uF has Xc=10e-7ohms at 4Mhz.

#### xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2011, 10:53:11 PM »

delta-E = 1/2 C(Vi**2 - Vf**2) ,  Pin = deltaE / delta-T  , 30 seconds.  C = 40mF.

Start, Vinitial = 1.385V  , Vfinal =  1.255V

So delta-E = 6.8 mJoules.
and Pin = 6.8/o.5min = 13.6 mW,   pls check my math.

It is a good thing you are a physics professor. I would have gotten this wrong on a test. I get:

( 500 ) * ( 40e-6 ) * ( 1.385^2 - 1.255^2 )

=  6.864 milli Joules total energy

therefore over 30 seconds =  6.864/30  =   0.2288 mW

note > watt = Joule/sec

What did I do wrong?

#### nul-points

• Hero Member
• Posts: 995
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2011, 11:18:13 PM »
[...]
therefore over 30 seconds =  6.864/30  =   0.2288 mW

note > watt = Joule/sec

What did I do wrong?

LOL - if you're wrong then at least two of us are!

[...]
a Joule is a Watt-second - i see you've divided Ein by units of minutes;
[...]
Steven, apologies - your Ein calc method is good, but Pin needs units of seconds, not minutes]

Pin = 6.87/30 = 0.23mW
[...]
np
[...]

...fortunately, i suspect we're both correct!

#### Tudi

• Full Member
• Posts: 148
##### Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2011, 11:20:19 PM »
call me a simple guy BUT, we are debating over this power usage / gain issue for days and days. If you would have left that LED(better more then 1) on the device running and some of the output to loop back, at least we would have a very vague idea if it runs for a short time or very long time. ( yes, i realize that these high frequency ringer circuits are tricky regarding the light emiting consumers = same visual brightness if close to 30 fps or continues operation )
Better yet, if this circuit is so easy to replicate, just make a new one and put the new one to run on a button cell battery with a big as possible consumer that you estimate it should hold. And put another battery without the circuit with similar load. Yes, these are very barbaric tests, not even close to an 50% precision. But if both seem to die off in close "year" then maybe the gain is very small. What do you have to loose ? 2 button cells and 3 hours ?
What can you gain ? realize that some specific part of this circuit is very important to know to replicate it ( maybe key component)