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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 744048 times)

Offline NerzhDishual

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #285 on: June 14, 2011, 12:47:45 AM »
Hi OU blokes,

No momentum conservation...  And then ?

It is just another "paradox" (a very useful word).
It sounds like Physics were not complete. Is it?

What about "RHYTHMODYNAMICS" (Yuri N. Ivanov)?
http://www.mirit.ru/rd_2007en.htm
Action without Reaction.
(End of the article after the picture included (Fig 124 in the article)).

Very Best

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Offline jbignes5

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #286 on: June 14, 2011, 01:08:08 AM »

 I would say that if you do anything you should think about others well known experiments with very fast low current pulses. We know that there is a very large field surrounding the coil and the rest of the system in the slayer pop bottle coil. I don't know if it was slayer or someone else who authored it but to tell you the truth it works because current does not effect the voltage component. It is the other way around. Voltage effects the external current flow twords the system. There are tons of experiments out there that show this. Slayers being the top of the list.

 I think what you are missing is an input and output transmitter like an antenna. Between two antennas you would get a flow, much like if we greatly increase the voltage component it becomes very clear what it looks like. When we have a direction of flow it is gonna pick up more potential as it flows.

 I have seen some pretty amazing experiments from respected individuals that show size and shape of the antennas are very important when designing the unit. The virtual ground could be a block of metal like aluminum and the antenna should be some (1/2 1/4 1/8) wave equivelent to the systems frequency. I'll chat more if you guys like. Got to do some work now...

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #287 on: June 14, 2011, 01:13:03 AM »
IIRC, the electrodes on the earth battery are not "forever" -- they degrade during operation of the battery.  Isn't that correct?

Mine have not shown any problems at all after 3+ years.  Stubblefield said if aligned in the earth properly, degradation is not a problem at all.  So far, in my experience, this has been true.  Of course, it has not been forever yet.

Bill

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #287 on: June 14, 2011, 01:13:03 AM »
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Offline NickZ

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #288 on: June 14, 2011, 04:01:04 AM »
  I think think I'm showing more wear and tear.

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #289 on: June 14, 2011, 06:17:53 AM »
Mine have not shown any problems at all after 3+ years.  Stubblefield said if aligned in the earth properly, degradation is not a problem at all.  So far, in my experience, this has been true.  Of course, it has not been forever yet.

Bill

Bill, or someone -- can you tell me HOW to MAKE one of these "cement cells"?  I like the way you guys jump in and do "crazy" experiments.  Someday, we're going to make a breakthrough (gut feeling).

Thanks for comments on the relativity puzzle -- note that violating Newton's third law is essentially equivalent to non-conservation of momentum.  Will return to that discussion soon.
 
 More studies today with the circuit, trying to achieve low Pin (< 1mW), then look at Pout without using an oscilloscope --

Conditions:
Ein by 10,000uF cap = 10mF
Rb 52Kohms
MPS2222
C-B 372 pF (note increase)
D red LED
L-B, L-O bifilar 9turns, ferrite toroid 1"OD,  ~120uH each
L1 connected to point 6 (between LED and Ro)
Ro = 220 ohms

Rr= 0, CSRout = 0 (removed)

Then, using Cap + stopwatch method, Pin is 0.41mW with LED glowing dim but easily seen in lit room

Next, to look at Pout -- crudely.  I simply replaced Ro with a 10mF capacitor


Ro = > replaced by 10,000 uF cap, same as the input-power cap (yes, I realize I need to measure the actual capacitances -- using my colleague's meter).

Using cap and stop-watch method for BOTH caps, get following results.

Ein = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vfinal**2)   -- discharging to provide Pin
Eout = 1/2 C (Vofinal**2 - Vostart**2)  -- charging to estimate Pout.  Note that the LED is glowing, and that energy is NOT captured, (various losses also not counted) so this provides a conservative estimate of Pout.

n = Eout/Ein -- since Cin ~ Cout,

n ~ (Vofinal**2 - Vostart**2) / (Vstart**2 - Vfinal**2)  -- conservative estimate, made using matched capacitors for input and output energy.

Typical result:
n ~ (1.58**2 - 1.30**2) / (2.54**2 - 2.25**2)  = 0.58 = 58% (conservative)

Note, Pin = Ein/time ~ 0.25 mW  (Pin is less with this system, with the cap replacing the 220 ohm Ro).
Please note the LOW value for required input power to light the LED.

Best result tonight:
n ~ (1.366**2 - 1.258**2) / (2.0**2 - 1.89**2)  = 0.7 = 70% (conservative)

Now, this is with matched caps for input energy and output energy, with the energy in the LED "thrown away", as it was lit visibly.  Hope you're following what I'm doing here -- achieve a low Pin while LED is still lit visibly (quite bright), then get a FIRST CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE for Pout (or Eout in this case).

Next -- a simple test, 10mF cap at 2.53V, so Ein = 32 mJ,  connect matching cap in parallel --> both caps now at 1.22 volts (volts drops by half as the charge is shared, conservation of charge).  But
E = 1/2 10mF V**2

So Ein = 32 mJ, Eout = 15 mJ (measured using voltages before and after joining caps in parallel) -- so HALF THE ENERGY IS LOST JUST CHARGING ONE CAP WITH A CHARGED-CAP (= capacitances).  n = 50% is the best one can do under these circumstances.  Not certain if that applies in this circuit...  a sim might tell that... 

Here, I get n ~ 58% typically and n~ 70% best run.


Conclusion:  interesting, not definitively OU in this configuration IMO -- still would like a better way to measure Eout or Poutput routinely so I can tune caps and resistors -- and the wound-toroid -- to maximize Pout/Pin = Eout/Ein.  On the road to self-running (I hope!)


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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #289 on: June 14, 2011, 06:17:53 AM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #290 on: June 14, 2011, 06:53:21 AM »
Back to the relativity puzzle:
Xee2:
Quote
Accepted answer is Feynman's virtual photons traveling backwards in time,

I don't that will work in this case, xee, because we can move the loops arbitrarily far apart and get the effect.  Virtual photons are limited by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle  -- which also applies to Jmmac's question"

Hi Professor,

This is a bit too much for me but interesting... 2 questions:

- The conservation of moment must happen in 'real time' or is it possible to have delays because of the propagation times?


Momentum non-conservation is allowed for a short time for virtual particles per Heisenberg, delta-momentum*time < h-bar, where h is Planck's constant.  This is an exceedingly short time, for this set-up, compared with 0.1 n-seconds.  Nope, Heisenberg won't help solve the puzzle.


For your other question and gyula's, let's simplify the experiment to this:  one short current pulse in A, then A off.  As the field reaches B (we know when this will be, from t = separation D/speed-of-light c), B receives a current (from the outside current source, not eddy because the source is otherwise high-impedance) so it receives a jolt, a push.  THAT field from B propagates to A, but A is OFF by then (again essentially zero eddy currents due to high impedance).

Your diagram with the water flowing up and down is interesting, NerzhDishual , but not a clear violation of Conservation of Momentum -- because the ball going up impedes the water coming out of the hose upward, so more water will flow downward to compensate.  There is (clearly) water moving both up and down -- whereas in this thought experiment, A launches a field (which moves both left and right) which pushes B to the right due to the momentary current in B, but there is nothing pushing A to the left (i.e., no compensating force). 

 I think - and may be wrong, but I can't see anything pushing A to the left.

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #291 on: June 14, 2011, 07:11:31 AM »
  I think think I'm showing more wear and tear.

Nick -- are you referring to the "cement cell"?  could you be more specific - what is showing wear and tear?
Thanks -- honesty is what we need to make solid progress.

About antennas -- " I have seen some pretty amazing experiments from respected individuals that show size and shape of the antennas are very important when designing the unit. " 
YES!  but for the relativity-puzzle-thought-experiment, two simple loops will suffice for the discussion, because that's all we need for the simple electromagnets, one pushing on the other and not being pushed back...

If the action were INSTANTANEOUS, instead of limited by the speed of light, we would not have this conundrum...  But it is an important effect, the limit imposed by the speed of light.  (Thanks Albert!)

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #291 on: June 14, 2011, 07:11:31 AM »
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Offline MeggerMan

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #292 on: June 14, 2011, 02:36:23 PM »
Best result tonight:
n ~ (1.366**2 - 1.258**2) / (2.0**2 - 1.89**2)  = 0.7 = 70% (conservative)

Now, this is with matched caps for input energy and output energy, with the energy in the LED "thrown away", as it was lit visibly.  Hope you're following what I'm doing here -- achieve a low Pin while LED is still lit visibly (quite bright), then get a FIRST CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE for Pout (or Eout in this case).
Hi JouleSeeker,
I have wound a toroid that comes out as about 119uH and 118uH per coil.
I have 2N2222 transistors but not the MPS2222 - I think they are equivalent.
The rest of the parts I have in stock.
It seems your 8x OU could be a measurement issue, but discharging/charging a cap seems a very fair way of comparing in to out.
What you might want to consider is the adding some 0.1uF caps in parallel with your input and output caps to ESR (effective series resistance) of the electrolytics.
Look forward to your next test results.
Thanks.
Rob

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #293 on: June 14, 2011, 04:02:19 PM »
Hi JouleSeeker,
I have wound a toroid that comes out as about 119uH and 118uH per coil.
I have 2N2222 transistors but not the MPS2222 - I think they are equivalent.
The rest of the parts I have in stock.
It seems your 8x OU could be a measurement issue, but discharging/charging a cap seems a very fair way of comparing in to out.
What you might want to consider is the adding some 0.1uF caps in parallel with your input and output caps to ESR (effective series resistance) of the electrolytics.
Look forward to your next test results.
Thanks.
Rob

Yes, thanks MeggerMan, I look forward to your results also.  I agree that "discharging/charging a cap seems a very fair way of comparing in to out" with the caveat that we are capturing only a portion of the output energy.

Over at OUResearch, laneal makes this observation:
Quote
Thanks professor for sharing those measurements.

So with a 10mF capacitor in place of R0, the voltage rises to 1.58V from 1.30V.
For a red LED, the forward voltage drop is about 1.67V (I measured mine with a DMM, please replace it with your own measurement).
Therefore, the power spent on the LED is: C * deltaV * Vdiode = 10mF * (1.58 - 1.30) * 1.67 =  4.676mJ.
The total energy stored in the cap is  (1.58**2 - 1.30**2) * 10mF /2 = 4.03
So, total output is: 4.676+4.03 = 8.706mJ.

Total input: (2.54**2 - 2.25**2) * 10mF/2 = 6.9455

Therefore n = 8.706 / 6.9455 = 1.253

Hey, that's more like an OU  :) But clearly it needs an accurate measurement of your Vdiode.

P.S.: my calculation shows that as long as the Vdiode > 1.04125V, we will have n>1.

Quote
[more from laneal: ]
Quotes Prof:  Best result tonight:
n ~ (1.366**2 - 1.258**2) / (2.0**2 - 1.89**2)  = 0.7 = 70% (conservative)

For this best case, if Vdiode > (1.366V+1.258V)/2 = 1.312V, then n > 140%.
Vdiode is the voltage drop over the diode at the moment when the capacitor is being charged.

For this best case, if Vdiode > 0.667, n>1.
Of course, this is still a conservative computation of n, as we have not calculated power wastes in the transistor and toroid.

Here is my reply --

Quote
Here I attach a photo of the set-up, using one cap for Ein and the second cap to capture some of the Eout.  Two DMM's read the voltage, one on each cap.
 
   Also a screen shot of the voltage across the LED, while powered by the Ein cap alone, with the second cap charging (from approx 0 volts, starting voltage).

The measurements read:
Vmean 40 mV, which is approx what I read with the DMM across the LED...  but --
Vpp  4.84V
Vrms 680mV
Vtop 3.12V -- this is the voltage in the forward direction, the direction of the current flow allowed by the LED

So you tell me, you asked for the voltage across the LED -- but which voltage does one use??

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #293 on: June 14, 2011, 04:02:19 PM »
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Offline MeggerMan

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #294 on: June 14, 2011, 04:46:15 PM »
Yes, thanks MeggerMan, I look forward to your results also.  I agree that "discharging/charging a cap seems a very fair way of comparing in to out" with the caveat that we are capturing only a portion of the output energy.
Hi JouleSeeker,
The other thing I thought of is that the spike voltage will be suppressed to a degree by the output capacitor and this may be pulling down your output gain.
So the effect could rely on the sudden surge and capturing it would be a real challenge.
One way may be a synchronized switch using a mosfet that cuts in near the peak of the spike, perhaps using the "avalanche" process. Then dump this into a capacitor.

Offline JimU

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #295 on: June 14, 2011, 08:20:12 PM »
If the action were INSTANTANEOUS, instead of limited by the speed of light, we would not have this conundrum...  But it is an important effect, the limit imposed by the speed of light.  (Thanks Albert!)

I've seen credible arguments that near-field, that is the non-radiated field, actually may have instantaneous effect, or at least not limited to "c".  Perhaps some experiments as well.  Should be a do-able experiment with the very high-speed scopes available today.

Jim

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #295 on: June 14, 2011, 08:20:12 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #296 on: June 14, 2011, 10:25:57 PM »
Hi JouleSeeker,
The other thing I thought of is that the spike voltage will be suppressed to a degree by the output capacitor and this may be pulling down your output gain.
So the effect could rely on the sudden surge and capturing it would be a real challenge.
One way may be a synchronized switch using a mosfet that cuts in near the peak of the spike, perhaps using the "avalanche" process. Then dump this into a capacitor.

You have a good point -- the "capture" of output energy on a cap may be affecting the operation of the circuit.  I'm also looking into use of a thermal wattmeter in lieu of the output cap -- it may be able to measure Pout without affecting the operation (or at least, in a different way).   
Whew!  a simple circuit, but not so easy as it looks.  I'm still amazed that with so little input power, Pin<1mW typically, the LED lights so well.

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #297 on: June 14, 2011, 10:29:39 PM »
I've seen credible arguments that near-field, that is the non-radiated field, actually may have instantaneous effect, or at least not limited to "c".  Perhaps some experiments as well.  Should be a do-able experiment with the very high-speed scopes available today.

Jim

Welcome, JimU! 
  I would like to see those arguments. 
Very interesting:  " the non-radiated field, actually may have instantaneous effect, or at least not limited to "c".  Perhaps some experiments as well.  "

Any references or URL's? 
Not limited to "c" will have remarkable effects, indeed.  An "instantaneous effect" would explain the puzzle, not in the way I expected certainly.

Come back, Jim!   Beam me up!

Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #298 on: June 15, 2011, 12:07:21 AM »
 
hello Steven

here's some data from an experiment which is certainly NOT moving anywhere near lightspeed!


first i should just stress again that these results may just turn out eventually to represent the 'battery relaxation' phenomenon (which i've seen in many previous experiments) - i'm just sharing the data here to keep you posted with progress on my current test

the graph below represents the terminal voltage, recorded over the last 7 days, for a single AAA NiMH cell which is powering my inverted, looped SJ1 circuit with supply interruption**

** the immediate supply to my SJ1 variant oscillator circuit is a 2200uF capacitor - whenever the oscillator o/p stops, the capacitor gets a momentary re-charge from the NiMH cell via a transistor switch

the oscillator o/p (from a tertiary winding) is fed back to the oscillator supply and to the NiMH cell, and is also used to gate the supply interruption switch

the trace below shows a typical output 'pulse burst' (here measured at the anode of the schottky diode i/p to the NiMH cell) - a group of around 3 of these pulse bursts are occurring within approx 100-300ms, the group being repeated at an interval of approx 1 second

so the average number of pulses per second is approx 15

the first pulse width is approx 30uS, its coil-collapse width approx 25uS;
schottky diodes are limiting the coil-collapse voltage peaks  to approx 560mV above the cell voltage (voltage values  obtained with  x10 probe)


i'll update after another week - or earlier, if the cell voltage starts to decrease

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 
 
 

Offline JimU

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #299 on: June 15, 2011, 12:25:10 AM »
  I would like to see those arguments. 
Very interesting:  " the non-radiated field, actually may have instantaneous effect, or at least not limited to "c".  Perhaps some experiments as well.  "

Any references or URL's? 
Not limited to "c" will have remarkable effects, indeed.  An "instantaneous effect" would explain the puzzle, not in the way I expected certainly.

I'm working from memory, but I think Phipps in his book "Heretical Verities" analyzes an experiment by Hill, where Phipps makes the argument that the result in question would imply that near-fields have instantaneous effect, as one example.  I'll keep digging into my memory on this...

Best,    Jim

 

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