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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 700592 times)

Offline futuristic

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #240 on: June 08, 2011, 01:48:43 PM »
Here is some more info about this: http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/vladimir_pantiuhov/

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Offline gyulasun

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #241 on: June 08, 2011, 02:51:19 PM »
I don't know Russian but what i understood from the video was that, he first shunted the capacitor on the left then he charged the capacitor using the battery and left the circuit to run alone without battery. As he does this, he shows the waveform of the pulses on the scope so that we can see its amplitude. When the circuit starts running alone, the amplitude decreases (maybe because the capacitor on the right is charging) and then increases again and stabilizes.

If my understanding is correct and there is no trick, then this should mean the circuit is self running with at least n = 2 since capacitor charging dissipates 50% of the energy by joule effect.

This seems to be an interesting circuit to compare with. It uses a separated coil to collect the energy and with less turns than the primary coil so that the pulses have lower amplitude and greater current. This should make it easier to feedback. The 'collecting coil' also has a middle connection that allows full wave rectifying of the pulses with only 2 diodes instead of 4 which means less voltage drop (0.7V instead of 1.4V).

Regards,
Jaime

Hi Jaime,

Thanks for your answer. I fully agree with your observations as happening in the video but let me quote this from you:

"If my understanding is correct and there is no trick, then this should mean the circuit is self running with at least n = 2 since capacitor charging dissipates 50% of the energy by joule effect."

While I believe there is no trick involved I think we have to elaborate on what your n=2 could exactly mean. Is it a COP of two?  (COP= coefficience of performance when you compare total output power to the input power you furnished in)  But if COP=2 then it should mean the puffer capacitor would not be discharged ever, right?  [Years ago I found about a half an hour run for such blocking oscillator (it was from Naudin TEP circuits if I recall correctly), then the 4700uF puffer cap gradually got discharged.]

Or we should introduce a so called temporary COP term where such circuits like this extend the total discharge time for the puffer cap when their ouput power is fed back to the input as an additional supply voltage?  Because this is what I believe happens here: run time is extended and your n=2 may mean run time doubles? 

So it is ok that this circuit self-runs but the big question is: for how long? for hours? days or weeks? more? 

By definition a COP of 2 means the run time is theoritically endless (in practice it boils down to the first component failure which can be many months or years).

This is why I think a temporary COP ought to be established lol to characterize such circuits, assuming of course what I think that this circuit stoppes working after some definite time like half an hour, an hour etc.

Thanks,  Gyula
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 03:12:07 PM by gyulasun »

Offline jmmac

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #242 on: June 08, 2011, 04:06:13 PM »
Hi Gyula,

About the 50% energy dissipation when charging a capacitor, it happens when you charge a capacitor using a resistor, for example. I'm not sure anymore if it happens in this case. Maybe someone else can say something about this.
If there is no energy loss, then my conclusion is wrong!

n (COP) is a ratio between the energy that enters and leaves the system by unit time (or power). In this case there is feedback and in order to maintain the system going forever, n must be >1. Since i was considering a 50% loss in the capacitor charging, the system had to compensate that with at least n=2 (EDIT: Here I was not counting the capacitor as belonging to the "system").

I don't have much experience with this kind of circuits but i'd guess the energy dissipation in the diodes alone, would be sufficient to lower the capacitor voltage and the amplitude of the oscillations in a small amount of time. Maybe i'm wrong.

Regards,
Jaime


Hi Jaime,

Thanks for your answer. I fully agree with your observations as happening in the video but let me quote this from you:

"If my understanding is correct and there is no trick, then this should mean the circuit is self running with at least n = 2 since capacitor charging dissipates 50% of the energy by joule effect."

While I believe there is no trick involved I think we have to elaborate on what your n=2 could exactly mean. Is it a COP of two?  (COP= coefficience of performance when you compare total output power to the input power you furnished in)  But if COP=2 then it should mean the puffer capacitor would not be discharged ever, right?  [Years ago I found about a half an hour run for such blocking oscillator (it was from Naudin TEP circuits if I recall correctly), then the 4700uF puffer cap gradually got discharged.]

Or we should introduce a so called temporary COP term where such circuits like this extend the total discharge time for the puffer cap when their ouput power is fed back to the input as an additional supply voltage?  Because this is what I believe happens here: run time is extended and your n=2 may mean run time doubles? 

So it is ok that this circuit self-runs but the big question is: for how long? for hours? days or weeks? more? 

By definition a COP of 2 means the run time is theoritically endless (in practice it boils down to the first component failure which can be many months or years).

This is why I think a temporary COP ought to be established lol to characterize such circuits, assuming of course what I think that this circuit stoppes working after some definite time like half an hour, an hour etc.

Thanks,  Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #242 on: June 08, 2011, 04:06:13 PM »
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Offline yfree

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #243 on: June 08, 2011, 05:12:08 PM »
@jmmac, @gyulasun,

My understanding of Russian is limited, self-taught.
jmmac, you are correct in understanding the video. The experiment has it's own thread. It starts somewhere here: http://www.001-lab.com/001lab/index.php?topic=1056.2800  , unfortunately it is in Russian. You will notice there that the schematic was updated with the capacitor in parallel with the collector coil. This tunes the ringing of the oscillator to the natural frequency of the ferrite. Somewhere in the thread he, Tiger2007, explains how to identify this natural frequency: a coil is wound on the ferrite and driven with the square-wave, the ringing occurring during the transitions of the waveform is at the natural frequency of the ferrite.

Best regards,

yfree

Offline gyulasun

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #244 on: June 08, 2011, 07:18:16 PM »
Hi Gyula,

About the 50% energy dissipation when charging a capacitor, it happens when you charge a capacitor using a resistor, for example. I'm not sure anymore if it happens in this case. Maybe someone else can say something about this.
If there is no energy loss, then my conclusion is wrong!

n (COP) is a ratio between the energy that enters and leaves the system by unit time (or power). In this case there is feedback and in order to maintain the system going forever, n must be >1. Since i was considering a 50% loss in the capacitor charging, the system had to compensate that with at least n=2 (EDIT: Here I was not counting the capacitor as belonging to the "system").

I don't have much experience with this kind of circuits but i'd guess the energy dissipation in the diodes alone, would be sufficient to lower the capacitor voltage and the amplitude of the oscillations in a small amount of time. Maybe i'm wrong.

Regards,
Jaime

Hi Jaime,

My understanding of this circuit shown in the Russian video with respect to the right hand side capacitor charging is that it is not a direct cap to cap discharge-charge scenario (where the 50% loss occurs if done directly): the left hand side (puffer) cap feeds the circuit and a circuit's component the coil's collapsing field charges up the right hand side cap. So a 50% loss in this charge transfer cannot occur as it does with a direct cap-to-cap setup: the energy comes from collapsing magnetic field when no energy is taken from the input (puffer) capacitor. This is how I think this works.
So there is some energy loss in this process but nowhere near the 50%.

The energy dissipation in the diodes can be minimized by using Germanium types like 1N34A types, also the transistor's saturation voltage could also be minimized by a good switching type bipolar transistor.
Question is still valid: how long can such a selfrunning circuit run?  :)

Thanks,  Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #244 on: June 08, 2011, 07:18:16 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #245 on: June 08, 2011, 07:41:25 PM »
@jmmac, @gyulasun,

My understanding of Russian is limited, self-taught.
jmmac, you are correct in understanding the video. The experiment has it's own thread. It starts somewhere here: http://www.001-lab.com/001lab/index.php?topic=1056.2800  , unfortunately it is in Russian. You will notice there that the schematic was updated with the capacitor in parallel with the collector coil. This tunes the ringing of the oscillator to the natural frequency of the ferrite. Somewhere in the thread he, Tiger2007, explains how to identify this natural frequency: a coil is wound on the ferrite and driven with the square-wave, the ringing occurring during the transitions of the waveform is at the natural frequency of the ferrite.

Best regards,

yfree

Hi yfree,

Thanks and unfortunately my Russian is rather rusty and miserable so if sometimes I catch one or two words it is a success...  ;D

It is interesting that Tiger2007 tunes the coil hence the oscillator to the natural frequency of the ferrite and I assume when he shows the blown-up scope shot in the video on the ringing he just mentiones that. Maybe a magnetostrictive movement of the core material is achieved here (like in transducer used in an ultrasonic cleaner, not in a piezo but in a magnetic type) and this might give some extra juice. If this is so and this process is involved in the extended running time, then maybe it is worth experimenting with it further on. It would be good to read Tiger2007's findings on this circuit with respect to the longest runtime.

rgds,  Gyula

Offline gyulasun

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #246 on: June 08, 2011, 07:44:50 PM »
Here is some more info about this: http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/vladimir_pantiuhov/

Thanks for this link too and if you happen to figure out info on the runtime, please mention it here.

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #246 on: June 08, 2011, 07:44:50 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #247 on: June 09, 2011, 01:03:22 PM »
  I'm back from the trip to California where I spoke to colleagues.  A brief summary of where we stand on the blocking oscillator OU? device seems in order.

1.  After months of development and learning, the initial device was tested by me using a Tektronix 3032 scope to measure  I(t) as voltage drop across a 1-ohm resistor and V(t) and the instantaneous Power was displayed as the product:  P(t) = V(t) * I(t).  Then the Tek3032 was used to calculate the MEAN power from this waveform, over numerous cycles.  Finally, I calculated n = Poutput / Pinput and found n ~ 8 for this circuit, by this method.
My early measurements involved hand-integration of the energy of the power waveforms for Pin and Pout, P(t) = V(t) * I(t), for one cycle, and these integrations yielding Ein and Eout also showed n>1 (back in the Feb-March 2011 time frame).

2.  The same procedure using the Tek3032 was followed for an "exact-as-possible" replication of the circuit by Les Kraut, which showed again n ~ 8.  At this point, I noted that we had "evidence for" (NOT "proof of") OU and shared the straightforward circuit design publicly, inviting any who wanted to test/develop the circuit to do so.  It was the success of the replication and pushing by Sterling Allan that induced me to release the development publicly -- to those willing to build and test the device.  I am a strong supporter of open source development of alternate-energy devices.

3.  In both cases, mine and Les', the input power was tuned (using especially the variable resistors in the circuit) to be close to zero.

4.  The low value of the input power  was checked using the input-capacitor + stop-watch method, Ein = 1/2 CV**2 and Pin = Ein /time, and the values came out:  0.23 mW for my initial circuit and 1.1 mW for Les Kraut's replication, with the output LED dimly but visibly lit in both cases.

5.  I urged replicators to assure that the Pinput was in this low range with the output LED lit, as a first test of whether the replication was in the same ballpark as our DUT's.

6.  Chris built a replication then several versions, measuring n>1 but by a different method which was challenged...  Chris found that sometimes the circuit would stop producing n>1 (by his measurement), and he worked on the stability of the circuit.  He is attempting to build a self-running version as am I.

7.  A few others built or are building replications, but again the power-measurement is a difficult issue, especially for the output power. 

8.  We discussed various power or energy measurement methods to check/complement the math-mean method using an advanced scope to evaluate power, including use of capacitors and use of a calorimeter.  But the self-running system would be the most compelling (in my opinion and that of others).

9.   It was noted that Russian work shows an apparently similar long-running blocking-oscillator circuit, again all solid state, but the Russian is hard to read and how long it runs is not yet understood.

Thanks for this link too and if you happen to figure out info on the runtime, please mention it here.

Gyula

Agreed -- again the link to the Russian blocking oscillator is here:  http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/vladimir_pantiuhov/   I have been to Russia for conferences on fusion energy a couple of times, but I do not read enough Russian to be of help in understanding Pantiuhov's work.  If someone could post the "best" schematic from this Russian research, it would be appreciated.

10.  As for myself, I'm planning to work on the circuit using first the method of capacitor-in and output-capacitors -- in order to better understand energy-flow in this circuit.  Then I will proceed with an effort to build a self-runner.  This may take several days or even weeks -- patience requested.

Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #248 on: June 09, 2011, 02:37:35 PM »
 
welcome back Steven, i hope your trip was successful and enjoyable (as much as a several hundred mile road trip allows!)

i too have doubts now, as expressed by some with their own readings, as to the validity of my DVM measurements - even when filtered

in one test where readings suggested a value for n > 1,  i checked by observing the load value just sustained by the o/p cap

my system was able to sustain a load of approx 82K ohms, equivalent to an o/p DC power of approx 18uW, but the filtered i/p DC power (according to DVM) was approx 50uW

however, in another experiment (detailed above) i noted that the DC power equivalent o/p from the LED was approx 80uW, which approached that of the measured DC power i/p from an external cell - whilst in addition to the LED o/p it appeared that the o/p feedback was also contributing a similar level of mutual input to the oscillator

further investigation definitely needed!


i am presently testing another variation to see if it's possible for the system to feedback any excess charge into its own supply, using a diode in place of the LED

this new setup also adds an extra transistor to connect the battery only when the o/p oscillation stops

the o/p is fed back both to the oscillator (with buffer capacitor), so that it can sustain a certain amount of operation from an intermittent connection to the cell, and also to the cell

in practice, the operation is such that around 6 short bursts of oscillation occur per second, each burst lasting approx 400us

the cell voltage is certainly rising, but this kind of test is notorious for producing 'false positives' due to cell 'recovery' after previous loading, so it will be necessary to give this particular test a good long run to establish if it can continue to sustain or increase cell voltage

i'll report back as appropriate


good luck with your ongoing investigations, Steven, Chris & any other replicators

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 03:43:37 PM by nul-points »

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #248 on: June 09, 2011, 02:37:35 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #249 on: June 09, 2011, 04:43:29 PM »

welcome back Steven, [...]

i am presently testing another variation to see if it's possible for the system to feedback any excess charge into its own supply, using a diode in place of the LED

this new setup also adds an extra transistor to connect the battery only when the o/p oscillation stops

the o/p is fed back both to the oscillator (with buffer capacitor), so that it can sustain a certain amount of operation from an intermittent connection to the cell, and also to the cell

in practice, the operation is such that around 6 short bursts of oscillation occur per second, each burst lasting approx 400us

the cell voltage is certainly rising, but this kind of test is notorious for producing 'false positives' due to cell 'recovery' after previous loading, so it will be necessary to give this particular test a good long run to establish if it can continue to sustain or increase cell voltage

i'll report back as appropriate

good luck with your ongoing investigations, Steven, Chris & any other replicators

thanks
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Very interesting approach, np. 
I really like this community of EXPERIMENTERS.  That's the way to get answers, by experiments.  You guys have jumped in and made the measurements, and reported results and its so refreshing!   

I also wish success to ongoing investigations, including the Muller/Romero and other approaches.  The solid state approach under discussion here has advantages of ease of build and testing, and I'm learning a lot from this experiment.

Thanks again,
Steven

Offline yfree

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #250 on: June 09, 2011, 05:46:55 PM »
@All

Just to answer your questions about runtime.
In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcftGrBEaL0&feature=player_embedded#at=25, Tiger2007 says he does not know how long it would run. However, later in his forum, he explains that the longest time it ran was 20 hours; it runs nicely during the day, but at night it tends to stop (temperature dependence?). He also tried to load it with the LED but the voltage was  dropping. When he disconnected the LED, the voltage went up again and stabilized at 7 - 9 V as it usually does. The capacitor he is using after the rectifier is 6 x 2.2 mF. I understand he is still working on this project.
I stumbled on this accidentally, as I understand Russian to the point of being able to read scientific literature in Russian, although my Russian is self-taught and passive. If you have any further questions, I will try to answer them to the best of my ability.

Best regards,

yfree
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 08:52:11 PM by yfree »

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #250 on: June 09, 2011, 05:46:55 PM »
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Offline beno

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #251 on: June 09, 2011, 07:02:56 PM »
@yfree:
The issue with that the circuit tends to stop at night is most likely caused by that it fetch energy from the ambient environment.

You would actually see the same if you connected an antenna to a capacitor (through a rectifier - which one can make of four diodes), and measured the charging capability during the day and night, and in different weather.

If you measure this, like I have, you'll see that:

* The charging capability tends to decrease at night
* I found that it tends to be reverted comparing to the weather - by this I mean: The charging capability tends to be bad in good weather, but good in bad weather (like rain).

Best regards

Beno

Offline beno

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #252 on: June 09, 2011, 07:32:47 PM »
Now the question remains why?

Does the charging capability seems to decrease at night .. This could be because of less electric noise pollution from radiostations, mobilephones and so on at night

Does the charging capability seems to be good in bad weather .. well one also see more lightning in bad weather than in good  ;)

Best regards

beno

Offline jmmac

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #253 on: June 09, 2011, 09:35:49 PM »
Hi yfree and beno,

This information that the russian circuit works longer during the day is very interesting. I've been learning about the work of prof. Konstantin Meyl (which claims to have achieved overunity with a setup similar to one by Tesla) and he has a theory that it's possible to extract energy from the solar neutrino flux that constantly goes through the earth. He states that scientists are now learning that neutrinos interact with the earth and a part of that flux is absorbed. He says that the neutrino flux measured during the night is about half that measured during the day - because at night the neutrinos have to cross the earth to reach the detectors.

I tried to confirm this on the web ... and found a different explanation to the differences in neutrino flux measurements. See: http://140.119.115.32/sa/pdf.file/en/e015/e015p048.pdf
It explains neutrino research and observations and it seems that neutrinos oscillate between different states as they travel from the sun to earth. When they reach earth (daytime side) there are more neutrinos in one particular state and when the flux reaches the other side of the earth (nighttime side), the flux has changed and there is less neutrinos in that state. See page 5 of the document - there is a good illustration of this phenomena.

This could be an explanation to why the russian circuit works longer during the day - somehow it is able to interfere with a particular kind of neutrino and extract energy, and that kind of neutrino is more present during the day. Who knows!

Regards,
Jaime

@All

Just to answer your questions about runtime.
In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcftGrBEaL0&feature=player_embedded#at=25, Tiger2007 says he does not know how long it would run. However, later in his forum, he explains that the longest time it run was 20 hours; it runs nicely during the day, but at night it tends to stop (temperature dependence?). He also tried to load it with the LED but the voltage was  dropping. When he disconnected the LED, the voltage went up again and stabilized at 7 - 9 V as it usually does. The capacitor he is using after the rectifier is 6 x 2.2 mF. I understand he is still working on this project.
I stumbled on this accidentally, as I understand Russian to the point of being able to read scientific literature in Russian, although my Russian is self-taught and passive. If you have any further questions, I will try to answer them to the best of my ability.

Best regards,

yfree

Offline gyulasun

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #254 on: June 10, 2011, 12:22:36 AM »
Hi Folks,

yfree,

Thanks for the interesting infos.  I recall Floyd Sweet also found his setup performed differently during the nights vs daytime.
Well, 20 hours run time sounds good. Hopefully it can be improved to COP>1.
His using a LED as a load proved to be too much load for that circuit, max some ten to some hundred microwatt power is involved. that is why measurements are very hard to do. Looping seems also difficult because the self consumption of the switch mode DC-DC converter (I believe it is needed) is hard to build for small currents but still high efficiency but perhaps not impossible.

jmmac,

The neutrino issue sounds believable, at least not impossible, an approach not to be rejected offhand, thanks for the link.

beno,

Some years ago I was in a yahoo mailgroup where such blocking oscillators were 'at stake' and once a member reported his circuit continued running when he disconnected its battery. Then, some hours later he realized his circuit picked up some EM radiation from his laptop that was placed on the same table he normally tinkered with circuits. 
So enviromental 'inputs' can enter our setups but we have to be aware of all man-made signals, radiations, near-fields etc when doing tests.

Thanks,  Gyula

 

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