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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 694096 times)

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #225 on: June 07, 2011, 11:54:22 AM »

Hi Hoppy,

Could you please explain this further? In my understanding, in Circuit V7, all power being consumed in the input side of the circuit should pass through the Input Shunt Resistor R2 giving a total calculation of the Input Current to the rest of the Circuit? Is this not correct? Have I missed something?

Thanks in advance.

All the best

  Chris

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Tudi

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #226 on: June 07, 2011, 12:08:47 PM »
Chris: the output is inversed as the input as i heard. Summing this in looped mode with the power source might still give a different result then feeding it directly to C2. You might need to invert the output of C1 before feeding it to C2

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #227 on: June 07, 2011, 12:26:51 PM »

Hi Tudi,

Yes, It is Inverted. It makes self Looping very difficult. Still working on it, no success yet.

Wont it be nice to build a small circuit that powers itself... Nice.

All the best

  Chris

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #227 on: June 07, 2011, 12:26:51 PM »
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #228 on: June 07, 2011, 01:26:31 PM »
Hi Hoppy,

Could you please explain this further? In my understanding, in Circuit V7, all power being consumed in the input side of the circuit should pass through the Input Shunt Resistor R2 giving a total calculation of the Input Current to the rest of the Circuit? Is this not correct? Have I missed something?

Thanks in advance.

All the best

  Chris

Chris,

The shunt resistor is just a convenient way of measuring the current in the complete circuit. Power does not pass through components, it is consumed by them, so each components dissipation is additive. Once you add the coil dissipation and dissipation in the transistor itself, then the total will be found to be much greater than the total power dissipation in the output circuit. Power in Watts over time in seconds = energy in Joules and its energy 'in' v 'out' that's important to get a full picture of efficiency.

Hoppy





Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #229 on: June 07, 2011, 05:37:27 PM »
@ hyiq

I think you should confirm the scope readings by replacing R4, D2, and VR2 in circuit V7 with a 1 K resistor and computing the output power by measuring the voltage across the 1 K resistor with a battery powered DVM. Watts = volts squared divided by resistance. Since the output is close to DC, this should give readings close to the scope readings. If not, the scope may not be giving accurate results.

EDIT:  using a 10 K resistor will produce higher voltage readings and may thus be more accurate.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 07:59:02 PM by xee2 »

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #229 on: June 07, 2011, 05:37:27 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #230 on: June 07, 2011, 05:53:22 PM »
Having received a question via email about measurements --  my reply:

How I made the power measurements is as follows, see attached schematic for the numbers of the points on the circuit where scope connections were made.

Pinput:  Connect 2 probe grounds to point 1.  Then one probe to point 2 (for current measurement, voltage across 1-ohm resistor) and one probe to point 3 (for voltage measurement).  Probes x10.
  Then Pin = the math product of the two probe voltages.  I then take numerous cycles of the waveform and have the Tek 3032 calculate the MEAN input power.

Poutput:  Connect 2 probe grounds to point 4.  Then one probe to point 5 (for current measurement, voltage across 1-ohm resistor) and one probe to point 6 (for voltage measurement).  Probes x10.
  Then Pin = the math product of the two probe voltages.  I then take numerous cycles of the waveform and have the Tek 3032 calculate the MEAN output power.
Note that when Rr is zero/removed, then point 4 is connected to/becomes point 1 and one does not have to move the two ground probe-connections when going from Pin to Pout measurements.

I have also measured Pin (as a check) using the Cap/stop-watch method described on the thread.  Ein = 1/2CV**2 and Pin = Ein/time.  This gave me Pinput ~ 0.23 to 1.1 mW, on two separately-built devices.  This measurement is in reasonable agreement with the Tek 3032 method described above, but appears to disagree with the DMM measurement method.  I trust the Cap/time method the best as this relies simply on input Energy and the time for the partial discharge of the cap -- and the voltages on the Cap before and after the run are done with the cap disconnected from the circuit.

Poutput could be measured via temperature rise on Ro, eliminating the need for CSRout.  In that case, I would replace LEDout with a diode.  I have not done that test yet.

In these ways, one could measure Pin and Pout without the use of oscilloscopes.

But I think that a self-running device would demonstrate super-efficiency more compellingly than such measurements.

Best wishes,
Steve 
On the road again in minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLRqM0nDT_M

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #231 on: June 07, 2011, 07:24:20 PM »
Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the advise. I am always open to constructive suggestions, TinselKoala has not replied and I don't expect one now. Maybe he has looked at my data again and thought other wise?
(snip)

P.S. If anyone See's a mistake please let me know. Sometimes I work on this under tired wary conditions so like anyone I do make mistakes. I do try to always double check things however. A better way to do something is always a better way!

I'm trying, I really am.
If you want to see some of what I've been working on in the past, you can look at my YT channel, and put "Joule Thief" into the search window. I have posted a couple of videos concerning measurement of energy using oscilloscopes in the Joule Thief and in the Rosemary Ainslie circuit. Please note the dates, they are pretty old.
Also, you might look at the Rosemary Ainslie thread here, and look at what poynt99 is trying to illustrate.
The main problem that I see here is that some intelligent and creative people are wasting a lot of time making meaningless measurements, when they have the apparatus at hand to attack the problem properly. They might not get results they like, though, and THAT is really the problem.
I am willing to do "power analyses" the same way you are doing them. Let's start with my TinselKoil and see what kind of COP we get. I am also willing to do them properly and share the techniques for doing so.
Now... are you willing to do the measurements the way I suggest, just for comparison's sake? That is, use the amount of energy in a cap bank, applied over a period of time, for input energy, and use the integrated instantaneous power curve over the same time, for output energy, and compare the two, for a true COP efficiency value?

(ETA: Once we are taking proper energy measurements, we can start talking about probe placement, stray inductances and circuit layout. These are so critical that they can actually have large effects on measurements and the calculated values derived from them. Very very large.....)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #231 on: June 07, 2011, 07:24:20 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #232 on: June 07, 2011, 07:41:04 PM »
Perhaps the difficulty is that it isn't being understood, that the energy is calculated by multiplying the Power times the Time over which the power is dissipated.
In the DC case, the "instantaneous" multiplication of voltage and current yields a straight line. So you just take some time period... like a scope screen .... and multiply the "average power" in Watts, which is also the value of the straight line power, by the time interval in Seconds, and that gives you the energy in Joules passing your measurement point in that time period.
It's just the same problem as finding the area of a rectangle, with the height equal to the wattage and the width equal to the time.
The "Integration" of any curve, geometrically, corresponds to the area under it, just like in the rectangular case above. Find the area and you've done the integration. For a rectangle DC waveform that's easy, it's height times width. But for a real AC HF power curve you can't do that.
So... for a complicated signal like an instantaneous power waveform, you need some way of approximating the area under it during a time interval, to get to the Joules of energy. I've described a simple manual way of doing it using tracing paper, but it's fairly easy --if relatively expensive, ha ha -- nowadays to get the oscilloscope to do it for you.

Offline Omega_0

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #233 on: June 07, 2011, 07:47:05 PM »
@hyiq

I agree with TK. Setup a measurement protocol first.
Since you are in a milli and micro range, nothing is reliable. Even touching the probe or keeping a PC on besides it will alter everything.

Since the waveforms don't allow direct looping back, the only way is proper measurements. (For those who don't have expensive calorimeters)

I'd also advise you to go back to the original circuit of Prof. We all have a tendency to forget that we are doing a "Replication" and start twisting the original to suit our own convenience. I see that you are falling in the same trap.

All the best.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #233 on: June 07, 2011, 07:47:05 PM »
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Offline yfree

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #234 on: June 08, 2011, 01:50:50 AM »

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #235 on: June 08, 2011, 05:17:37 AM »

Hi All,

Yes I agree.  Thanks for your advise. I think I will wait for Dr Jones to come back and check this circuit, then work together. I have gone a bit off track and am starting to loose the focus of this replication effort.

To prove or dis prove an above unity circuit...

Hoppy, sorry for the questions, so does that mean, a "Sense Resistor" is not a good idea of measurements?

Thanks all for your help and advise!

All the best

  Chris

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #235 on: June 08, 2011, 05:17:37 AM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #236 on: June 08, 2011, 05:29:15 AM »
I am willing to do "power analyses" the same way you are doing them. Let's start with my TinselKoil and see what kind of COP we get. I am also willing to do them properly and share the techniques for doing so.
Now... are you willing to do the measurements the way I suggest, just for comparison's sake? That is, use the amount of energy in a cap bank, applied over a period of time, for input energy, and use the integrated instantaneous power curve over the same time, for output energy, and compare the two, for a true COP efficiency value?

(ETA: Once we are taking proper energy measurements, we can start talking about probe placement, stray inductances and circuit layout. These are so critical that they can actually have large effects on measurements and the calculated values derived from them. Very very large.....)

Hi Tinselkoala,

Yes, A better way to do something is always a better way. I am prepared to measure this circuit your way. Like I said, always open to suggestions.

All the best

  Chris

Offline Hoppy

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #237 on: June 08, 2011, 09:39:03 AM »
Hi All,

Yes I agree.  Thanks for your advise. I think I will wait for Dr Jones to come back and check this circuit, then work together. I have gone a bit off track and am starting to loose the focus of this replication effort.

To prove or dis prove an above unity circuit...

Hoppy, sorry for the questions, so does that mean, a "Sense Resistor" is not a good idea of measurements?

Thanks all for your help and advise!

All the best

  Chris

Chris,

A sense / shunt resistor will allow you to scope the current waveform whilst adding negligible load to the circuit. However, when dealing with complex waveforms and looking at efficiency, this is more involved and its necessary to have a good understanding of electrical principles. TK has the knowledge to guide you well on the right way to do this.

Hoppy

Offline gyulasun

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #238 on: June 08, 2011, 10:41:30 AM »
@hyiq

Chris,
You should watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcftGrBEaL0&feature=player_embedded#at=25

Dear yfree,

If you understand Russian, does it turn out how long his 'free energy circuit' runs? 
He charges up the input capacitor on the left side of his schematic first with the 12V battery, then the circuit runs from that (puffer) capacitor.  Because this circuit is basically a tipical blocking oscillator, with the usual spike waveforms and with very little current consumption, I believe the run time just depends on how long the initial charge lasts in the capacitor.
Of course the output of the oscillator is rectified and fed back to the puffer capacitor as an additional supply voltage, making the run time longer than without the feedback. 
So I wonder how long his circuit has run for him? 
I built blocking oscillators in the past and they run for about half an hour from a 4700uF puffer capacitor but once the charge was consumed from the capacitor the circuit stopped. I wonder why he calls this a free energy circuit? Maybe his circuit does not stop? 

Thanks,  Gyula

Offline jmmac

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #239 on: June 08, 2011, 11:33:35 AM »
I don't know Russian but what i understood from the video was that, he first shunted the capacitor on the left then he charged the capacitor using the battery and left the circuit to run alone without battery. As he does this, he shows the waveform of the pulses on the scope so that we can see its amplitude. When the circuit starts running alone, the amplitude decreases (maybe because the capacitor on the right is charging) and then increases again and stabilizes.

If my understanding is correct and there is no trick, then this should mean the circuit is self running with at least n = 2 since capacitor charging dissipates 50% of the energy by joule effect.

This seems to be an interesting circuit to compare with. It uses a separated coil to collect the energy and with less turns than the primary coil so that the pulses have lower amplitude and greater current. This should make it easier to feedback. The 'collecting coil' also has a middle connection that allows full wave rectifying of the pulses with only 2 diodes instead of 4 which means less voltage drop (0.7V instead of 1.4V).

Regards,
Jaime

Dear yfree,

If you understand Russian, does it turn out how long his 'free energy circuit' runs? 
He charges up the input capacitor on the left side of his schematic first with the 12V battery, then the circuit runs from that (puffer) capacitor.  Because this circuit is basically a tipical blocking oscillator, with the usual spike waveforms and with very little current consumption, I believe the run time just depends on how long the initial charge lasts in the capacitor.
Of course the output of the oscillator is rectified and fed back to the puffer capacitor as an additional supply voltage, making the run time longer than without the feedback. 
So I wonder how long his circuit has run for him? 
I built blocking oscillators in the past and they run for about half an hour from a 4700uF puffer capacitor but once the charge was consumed from the capacitor the circuit stopped. I wonder why he calls this a free energy circuit? Maybe his circuit does not stop? 

Thanks,  Gyula

 

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