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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 694499 times)

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #210 on: June 07, 2011, 01:17:49 AM »

Hi All,

Small modification to Circuit V7. This is to ensure the Input Voltage reading is correct and remembering Input Current will now be netigive so adjust when measuring the input.

All the best

  Chris

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #211 on: June 07, 2011, 01:25:07 AM »
You are not doing it right.

Your nice applet computations, to ridiculous false precision, are for strict DC and do not apply to the computation of power in signals that are ringing, oscillating and of very short duty cycles like you are measuring.
Taking the "Mean voltage" and the "Mean current" as computed by the scope, and multiplying them, does not give you anything meaningful for this signal.

The only valid way of measuring power for a signal of this type is to have your scope do a realtime, INSTANTANEOUS multiplication of the current and voltage values at each of its sampling instants. This resulting waveform will be your instantaneous power waveform, and it may be reasonably averaged..... but again, the "average power" is nearly useless for demonstrating any kind of COP or excess energy.

Note that last word: ENERGY. Only energy multiplication or production matters. And the ENERGY of this circuit, in and out, can be easily found, if you will only measure and compute the instantaneous power curve and then integrate it over a suitable time period.

And a note on precision: Your answer in any computation CANNOT be more precise than the LEAST precise of your input data. If you only know your voltage to the nearest millivolt, then your answer CANNOT POSSIBLY have twelve real digits of precision. In other words, the only thing you really know about a number like "254.54756382 milliwatts" is that it is... WRONG.

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #212 on: June 07, 2011, 01:59:27 AM »
You are not doing it right.

Your nice applet computations, to ridiculous false precision, are for strict DC and do not apply to the computation of power in signals that are ringing, oscillating and of very short duty cycles like you are measuring.
Taking the "Mean voltage" and the "Mean current" as computed by the scope, and multiplying them, does not give you anything meaningful for this signal.

The only valid way of measuring power for a signal of this type is to have your scope do a realtime, INSTANTANEOUS multiplication of the current and voltage values at each of its sampling instants. This resulting waveform will be your instantaneous power waveform, and it may be reasonably averaged..... but again, the "average power" is nearly useless for demonstrating any kind of COP or excess energy.

Note that last word: ENERGY. Only energy multiplication or production matters. And the ENERGY of this circuit, in and out, can be easily found, if you will only measure and compute the instantaneous power curve and then integrate it over a suitable time period.

And a note on precision: Your answer in any computation CANNOT be more precise than the LEAST precise of your input data. If you only know your voltage to the nearest millivolt, then your answer CANNOT POSSIBLY have twelve real digits of precision. In other words, the only thing you really know about a number like "254.54756382 milliwatts" is that it is... WRONG.

Hi TinselKoala,

You may have noticed, I am measuring nearly straight DC on the output. There is very little AC Wave, its more like a DC Ripple.

If you believe I am measuring this Circuit wrong please layout a guide for us to follow measuring it your way. I understand this circuit opens a bag of worms and is very tricky to measure and the only real way to prove OU is to simply make it self run.

What are you working on? It takes 5 minutes to build this Circuit, maybe yould like to throw it together and send us your results?

All the best

  Chris

[P.S. My Scope is taking an average of 128 Points in taking these measurements by the way. If this is still not correct, please let me know.]
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 03:43:47 AM by hyiq »

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #212 on: June 07, 2011, 01:59:27 AM »
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Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #213 on: June 07, 2011, 03:48:40 AM »
Hi TinselKoala,

You may have noticed, I am measuring nearly straight DC on the output. There is very little AC Wave, its more like a DC Ripple.

If you believe I am measuring this Circuit wrong please layout a guide for us to follow measuring it your way. I understand this circuit opens a bag of worms and is very tricky to measure and the only real way to prove OU is to simply make it self run.

What are you working on? It takes 5 minutes to build this Circuit, maybe yould like to throw it together and send us your results?

All the best

  Chris

Hi Chris,

Great job on your write up, circuit and build.  I would not respond to TinselKoala, but that is just me.  Long story.

I am in the middle of a build on a "mechanical" TPU, in nearly all of my spare time, in testing for our Solid State Version.  But I do have time to offer a couple of suggestions.

First, build a second circuit identical to this one and see if your measurements are also close to identical.  And then as you wrote, combine the outputs (336 mw) and loop to input.

What ideas do you have to scale it up, aside from what we discussed yesterday, shrinking it, etc.?

Cheers,

Bruce


Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #214 on: June 07, 2011, 04:04:10 AM »
Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the advise. I am always open to constructive suggestions, TinselKoala has not replied and I don't expect one now. Maybe he has looked at my data again and thought other wise?

The first thing I plan to do is up the input voltage, and up the turns on the coil. We have seen some huge differences in just a few windings so I will also keep experimenting with this also. Load components need to be increased also.

You are right, I need to build another circuit and replicate the same conditions in another circuit. I am in progress doing this now.

The Hyperfast Diodes made a big difference to the output, you can see it is nearly DC now. My Scope, if I up the Res, does see lots of DC Ripple but wow what a difference. Oh, they are soft recovery, so they may have slightly higher internal capacitance?

Thanks again for the encouragement!

All the best

  Chris

P.S. If anyone See's a mistake please let me know. Sometimes I work on this under tired wary conditions so like anyone I do make mistakes. I do try to always double check things however. A better way to do something is always a better way!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #214 on: June 07, 2011, 04:04:10 AM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #215 on: June 07, 2011, 04:14:33 AM »
What do you think about an
Amidon FT140A-J

goldmine is sold out of the G6683

Hi dimbulb,

I have not got any but yeah give them a go, try anything you can get your hands on.

best of luck

  Chris

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #216 on: June 07, 2011, 06:54:29 AM »
  Chris -- I agree with Bruce-TPU that your design and build are looking very good. 
I use the instantaneous power-waveform method, multiplying V(t) * I(t) for the power (input and output separately), and that's what gave me the super-efficiency result I reported, noting this is "evidence for" rather than proof.

Certainly no measurement method tops the self-running prototype.

  Still traveling, visiting my son this evening.  He's sharp, in his thirties, has some good ideas about open source and getting a product out without the impedance/hindrance from the patent system... How to de-centralize production, etc..  (A bit ahead of where we are now, but something to plan for IMO>) 

Still in Calif.  When I get back to my home lab, I can look at the power waveform and give you more feedback on your  latest versions, Chris and nul-pts.

 The bottom line  I think is agreed by all -- we need to loop back (some of) the output power and feed it back into the input and get a self-runner.  The first bona fide self-runner "wins"!
   
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 07:26:53 AM by JouleSeeker »

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #216 on: June 07, 2011, 06:54:29 AM »
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Offline Tudi

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #217 on: June 07, 2011, 08:39:23 AM »
Chris, i read eagerly your every update and cross my fingers that you succeed. I'm a professional noob and can't build even such a simple circuit, so you guys are my super heroes :P.
Since day 1 i tried to convince people that you should be trying to extract / store the output energy in any form you wish ( heat, mechanical, electrical ) instead looping it back. Such a circuit can behave as an energy storage system : slowly draining input, using it for some type of consumer a part of the energy, looping it back.. after a while a balance builds up about the amount it is consumed/eaten up/looped. Probably this is what you are measuring. This is why i think the looping idea as nice it sounds, it is not valid as long as you are constantly feeding the circuit.
I also think that at this frequency it is almost irelevant to try to make precise measurements. I and V might be out of phase, your osciloscope has 1 time reference point and you are measuring at 2 points. Use at least 2 scopes to be able to obtain in phase scope V(t)*I(t) measurements. Even so. This circuit according to osciloscope tends to be in the range of MegaHertz. Most osciloscopes crap out at even Kilohertz range. I think the simplest proof is that you get negative input values. You can make 128 point measurements / second but at MHz range that is 1million / 128 precision ( 0.000128 % correctness in 1 second interval for energy amount ? )
Don't take these as negative comments. As i said. I'm just a noob trying to contribute what i can.

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #218 on: June 07, 2011, 09:50:06 AM »

Hi All,

I have spent a few hours today trying to get the Dual Circuit, see below Picture, to run itself. So far, no luck. Still working on it.

All the best

  Chris

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #218 on: June 07, 2011, 09:50:06 AM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #219 on: June 07, 2011, 09:58:06 AM »

Hi Tudi,

I agree, there is a looping there, I am at the point now that I am going to try NON Polarised Caps in my Circuit to try to get the Looping running better.

Its entirely possible, like Steven said, this Circuit is not OU. Even though it does consistently give good measurements, it may not be.

I will keep at it, thanks for your advise and encouragement!

All the best

  Chris

Offline Hoppy

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #220 on: June 07, 2011, 10:00:11 AM »
Whist I agree wih TK about getting meaningful measurements, I disagree with him that mean readings across a shunt resistor are meaningless. A comparative reading is quite possible. I need to try out a bifilar coil but so far as I reported earlier, using a conventionally wound coil gives me a result way under unity as expected.

Chris, if you measure the voltage across C2 with a parallel connected 1K load (without the LED in circuit) and multply this by the shunt current or simply square the voltage across the load resistor and divide by 1000, I will be most surprised if you get anything above 60% front to back efficiency. You can do this with a DVM. I'm not sure where you are getting your output voltage from but if its across the shunt, you can't use this  to work out the power consumed by the load. All components in the output circuit will consume power at a ratio determined by their respective resistances. Most importantly, power sharing also applies to all components in the input circuit.

Hoppy
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 10:21:24 AM by Hoppy »

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #220 on: June 07, 2011, 10:00:11 AM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #221 on: June 07, 2011, 10:11:31 AM »
Hi Chris

i am crossing my fingers for your looping

thanks for sharing your remarquable work

Go on this superb work

and good luck at all

Laurent

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #222 on: June 07, 2011, 11:07:31 AM »
Hi Hoppy,

Thanks for your advise and encouragement! Yes, I have tried the 1K resistor in the early Circuits. You can see i have ensured I have put measuring points on my Circuits, Vout is accross C2, Iout is accross Shunt, or R4, and the same on the input side.

Although no Electronice Engineer, I agree with you and this should be a fairly comparitive measurement if only a guide, its still pretty accurate most of the time.

Below are the two circuits I have gone through and checked. It takes some adjusting, but an Over Unity Measurement is possible the way you described.

[EDIT - I just want to add, I went through about 50 different types of Fet's/Transistors/JFet's to get one that gave a nice result. Its Important that the Transistor is chosen carefully.]

All the best

  Chris

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #223 on: June 07, 2011, 11:08:56 AM »
Hi Woopy,

Thanks, I hope it comes off. My Fingers are crossed also. As yet, no luck.

All the best

  Chris

Offline Hoppy

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #224 on: June 07, 2011, 11:46:50 AM »
Hi Chris,

Thanks for posting your circuits again for clarity. Have you worked out the power consumed by L1 / L2, as this should be added to the power consumed by the shunt resistor to gain a total input power measurement?

Hoppy

 

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