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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 693390 times)

Offline mscoffman

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #120 on: June 01, 2011, 10:07:03 PM »
@All

Here’s the thing , expensive instrumentation doesn’t have perfect input
impedance - it has perfect compromise input impedances, so that
specifically designed probes do not ring. The power bandwidth transfer
function of the scope input and probes are stuck in an out the way place
by the manufacture. But a correctly designed amplifier circuit can still
detect the instruments transfer impedance and change the it’s signal to
fool the instrument into giving incorrect readings. Like running your
electric meter backwards by changing the character of the signal to it.

The way the electronics technician looks at it is, if attaching the
instrument changes the circuits behavior in any way, the
instrument is useless  because the circuit may be changing it’s
behavior and causing incorrect readings – he says that; “The
circuit is behaving in an unstable way, it has insufficient operating
margins.” This effect is enhanced if two input probes are going into
the same instrument. Because sensing one is enough to create a
signal that can fool the other.

So you can’t really design a circuit by evolving it. Very simply circuits
need e-cap simulation so you call be sure what they are actually doing.
Ie their behavior is not targeting the instrumentation rather then behaving
in a way that there were designed. Designing a circuit with adequate
margins so they are stable under application of standard instrument
input loads is generally doable, as are special techniques of using isolated
instrumentation amplifiers. Large scale systems often have sufficient
internal gain already as a margin. It’s the very simple circuits that need
help.

The best way to solve this is to design a circuit that will have the
behavior that you want to see. In this case producing overunity
energy then guaranteeing that it’s behavior does not change when
you attach instrumentation. I suggested using RC time constants
out of precision identical components. But don’t worry, you will find it
extremely difficult to design a circuit that actually produces overunity
energy. But at least you won’t be fooling yourself with instrumentation
error.


:S:MarkSCoffman


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Hoppy

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #121 on: June 01, 2011, 10:31:08 PM »
Glad people are doing replications and tests. 
I just wrote an email to someone beginning a replication that may be of use to others as well:
 Steven

The 'Spikes of power' I see in this replication are of very short time duration and are significant in their voltage level, rather than true power / energy level. Measuring the mean voltage level across a load resistor fed from a rectified and smoothed output is all we need to make a reasonable comparison of output power / energy v input power / energy measured across a suitable shunt resistor at the supply side. Failing to get close to unity using a simple and effective test setup as shown by Chris does not IMO warrant more time and effort using more sophisticated measuring techniques. John Bedini's various devices can demonstrate a huge amount of 'spiking' but none are overunity in themeselves by his own admission.

Hoppy

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #122 on: June 01, 2011, 10:40:27 PM »
@jmm -- I intersperse responses in bold:

Prof. Jones,

I'm trying to replicate your circuit without success.

"without success" -- do you mean it won't light up the LED, or what?
Can you please give some informations in order to help me?

- What's the voltage drop in your LED (in a dc circuit)?
I put the LED in a dc circuit, Vbatt = 2.6VV-LED = 1.64VV-across 979ohm resistor = 0.96VNot sure this is too helpful, though.  See this post for details of how the voltages across the LED read out in this DUT:  [/]
Quote
[]DVM 6(black)-7(red) +0.6V  (DSO: Vpp 3.4V)  Dim red[/]

[]See here for the circuit and labels:  http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=853.0

- Did you use a normal ferrite toroid?
Yes, as stated in the OUR thread -- see URL above:[/]
Quote
[]Ferrite toroid 1"OD, 0.5"ID, 7/16" high, electronic goldmine G6683[/]

- I don't have 2N2222 transistors. Can you tell me if your circuit works as well with a BC547, BC547A or 2N3904 ?
Haven't tried these out, sorry.  --Steve

Thank you. Hope you're having a nice time.
Regards,
Jaime
[/][/b]
[]

@mscoffman-- agreed, and that is why I seek multiple testing methods and state that the Tek 3032 results are only "evidence of" at this stage.



 [/]

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #122 on: June 01, 2011, 10:40:27 PM »
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Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #123 on: June 01, 2011, 11:06:28 PM »
Could I ask you to draw up in this fashion my hand-drawn circuit shown in post #2 of this thread??

Done.


Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #124 on: June 01, 2011, 11:37:52 PM »
Hi All,

Simply putting a Light Emitting Diode accross the input V+ and V - and output V+ and V- shows My Version of the circuit is not COP > 1. There is a visable difference in Light emmited.

I still think this circuit can go COP > 1 and will change resistors and Caps to keep adjusting.

Also Last night I pulled the circuit down and rebuilt and got different frequency so there is something out of the norm going on here. Will report more soon.

All the Best

  Chris

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #124 on: June 01, 2011, 11:37:52 PM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #125 on: June 02, 2011, 12:27:59 AM »
Hi All,

Just an fyi, Picture is attached. LED Test shows less power on the output.

Considering there is 1.5 Ohms inbetween the Primary LED and the Test secondary LED this test is not the best test.

All the best

  Chris

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #126 on: June 02, 2011, 12:47:17 AM »
Great!  thanks, Xee2.  Hope you don't mind my showing it to people...?

Keep up the good work, Chris.  When measuring Pout, also try looking at the power dumped on the resistor Ro, with the LED replaced by a diode (1n4148) I used, in the same direction.

Back to the evaluation of Pin using a capacitor in lieu of the battery:

We need a capacitor that will drain slowly, but not leak significantly when disconnected --  measuring over a smaller V drop on the cap.  And compare THAT Power result with the DMM measurement!  (I asked this of Itsu on the OUR thread.)

Today, I tried my own replication of the DUT and used a 10F cap to do the measurement:

Over 6.0 minutes, 2.39 to 2.34 volts => 3.2 mW  +/- due to the small V change.

Over 40 minutes, 1.661 V to 1.490 V =>  1.1 mW.


(someone check my math?)

I just report the results as I see 'em.  Rb again @ 51Kohms -- are you doing this, Itsu??
This is a simple test IMO, to see if YOUR replication is in the same ballpark as mine.

I note also that when the cap is first charged, one has to wait for it to "settle down" -- I did this.

I have no opportunity to test this replication with the Tek 3032, until I return from my trip.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #126 on: June 02, 2011, 12:47:17 AM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #127 on: June 02, 2011, 12:51:39 AM »
I have been around for a while now, mostly lurking. I used to be a part of many forums but for the following reason I stopped:

Reading through the posts, it’s easy to see who is doing the work to see if we can replicate this or not! Some just do nothing but criticise shoot people down of debunk the Circuit out right before even trying one simple experiment.

For those of you that are "So knowledgeable" put the circuit together and share your results instead of being so negatively destructive. It will take you all of 5 minutes? What’s wrong with you? If you’re really so smart?

Why the debate on Free Energy? Nature has been doing it for billions of years!

Oh to be constructive...

  Chris


Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #128 on: June 02, 2011, 01:07:58 AM »
Everything 'in' Nature has a cost, what you deem as free actually had a cost and still does. that is just the way nature is.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #128 on: June 02, 2011, 01:07:58 AM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #129 on: June 02, 2011, 01:55:24 AM »
"Overunity" carries baggage, connoting energy out of nowhere, implying a violation of the laws of Physics.
 Don't believe in violating laws of physics at all, so I try to avoid the term OU -- and suggest instead "super-efficiency", meaning
n = (electrical power out) / (electrical power in) > 1.

n > 1, super-efficiency -- allowing for anomalous energy input to the device.  (And I favor "dark energy" personally -- 70% of all the mass-energy in the universe is this little-understood stuff, as I posted earlier.)

I avoid "COP" in favor of "n" -- same reason, baggage carried with the term COP >1 going with violating laws of physics.

And finally, I avoid "free energy" because it also connotes now energy out of nowhere (google it). 
IMHO, something like Novel Electrodynamic Energy  would be a much better term.
All, IMHO.


TERMinology in a nascent field of science is critically important.

Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #130 on: June 02, 2011, 02:16:40 AM »
Great!  thanks, Xee2.  Hope you don't mind my showing it to people...?

No problem. Use as you like. If you want changes, let me know.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #130 on: June 02, 2011, 02:16:40 AM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #131 on: June 02, 2011, 02:20:18 AM »
hello Steven

i've taken up a couple of your suggestions for related investigation:-

a) increased base feedback Cap & transformer inductance for reduced repetition rate;

b) arranged circuit to suit feedback of o/p energy to supply.


a) has been achieved with the use of a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor and a transformer constructed from approx 2x 150 turns of 3x0.2mm Litz wound on 50x10mm OD ferrite rod, enclosed in a ferrite tube (approx 35x30mm OD)

the waveform modifies to a 12.5us pulse (+ similarly dimensioned coil-field collapse, immediately following in anti-phase), with an approx 345Hz repetition rate
(see trace below for AC waveform at emitter)


b) has been achieved by inverting your generic common-collector oscillator, using a PNP transistor, to enable easier re-direction of the o/p current path into the required energy-storage components

i realise that i'm now investigating a circuit which is different to your circuit 'specifics', but i believe that it still retains the essence of your design 'generics' and therefore it should provide a relevant test-bed for observing variations of harvesting and recycling the o/p

(see below for schematic of inverted, looped, srj1-family circuit)


the circuit is powered by two well-depleted AAA NiMH cells; these produced a total of 2.05V off-load, which has dropped to approx 1.5V in-circuit

this battery is connected to the positive emitter supply (which i'll label Vee), via an inductor of a few mH

the broad o/p recycling strategy has been to replace the emitter LED with a schottky diode and direct the current path away from the emitter into a buffer capacitor

this capacitor is charging up to approx 2.9V

the buffer capacitor is connected to Vee via an inductor of a few mH and a red LED

the LED is not bright, but it is easily visible

the current draw from the battery is approx. 50uA  (largely due to the very small mark-space ratio)


if time permits, i intend to monitor the battery terminal voltage trend for different configurations of the o/p recycling arrangement

i hope to post occasional progress reports; if any results suggest a further mod, please call it out and i'll try to include that in the 'schedule'

PS  i believe it's 'safe' to use CoP as an alternative to your 'n' - i understand it's an accepted measure of system performance, used for example in heat-pump technology (where CoP = 4, say, is not an unusual value)

all the best
np

[Apologies for rather large sized images - the 'scope trace loses resolution badly, when resized any smaller!]


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 
 
 
 



Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #132 on: June 02, 2011, 07:27:18 AM »
NP -- I am studying your circuit with interest, and learning.

Quote
i realise that i'm now investigating a circuit which is different to your circuit 'specifics', but i believe that it still retains the essence of your design 'generics' and therefore it should provide a relevant test-bed for observing variations of harvesting and recycling the o/p

(see below for schematic of inverted, looped, srj1-family circuit)

I agree with what you are doing here and look forward to your results.  Thanks for taking a close look at this, and for innovations in "harvesting and recycling the [output]" which is the most difficult part of the evaluation of the circuit. 

Best wishes for your success,
Steven

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #133 on: June 02, 2011, 09:18:36 AM »
I will remind you again: Power is not energy. Power multiplication is easy. If you measure, for example, my TinselKoil using the same techniques you are using here, you will find that it draws an "average" of 7 amps at 120 VAC from the wall, and the secondary arc is 8-10 amps at over 30,000 volts "average". Put that in your COP and smoke it.

I note that 5 or more entire pages have gone by in this thread and only a single person has said anything about measuring ENERGY in and out in your circuit.... besides me, that is.

I have put up a couple videos showing how POWER measurements are very susceptible to artifacts like stray inductances and measuring points, in a Joule Thief essentially equivalent to the circuit here under test. I also show how an ENERGY INTEGRAL is obtained and how that integral, when properly computed, is less sensitive to these artifacts.

Mean power during a time period.... can be considered an energy value ONLY if properly measured and computed. Have you learned nothing from the Ainslie affair? The proper way to compute energy out is to do it with an oscilloscope that can handle the math, OR.... like I said: trace it out and count up the area under the instantaneous power curve.

As long as you are talking about power in and power out and mean or average power.... you are clearly barking up the wrong tree. To try to show COP ratios using power you need much more sophisticated apparatus than you are using, something like the Clarke-Hess power meters, or calorimetry.

Please... just for fun.... do an actual energy balance measurement on your Joule Thief.

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #134 on: June 02, 2011, 09:47:34 AM »
Hi All,

@TinselKoala

I agree, its important we get this right to insure we know what we are dealing with. Like I said the only real way is to make itself run.

This is why I think when we post a Circuit Schematic we should get in the habbit of showing measuring points and component values better.

My current circuit is attached with all points clearly marked. Please can everyone give me your feed back. If I have something wrong let me know and I will correct and re-post. Also Probe polarity settings. I have used DC polarity on the Voltage side, but have used both DC and AC for the Cuttent Probe settings. My Scope is set to "Mean" measurement over time.

I am not measuring RMS or PK-PK. So far, I think a sort of Impedance matching seems to be going on. John Bedini said this some time back and I did not understand what he meant.

So lets set some standards to follow, constructively help in moving forward to trying to understand this and start scaling this up when we do.

all the best

  Chris


 

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