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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists  (Read 165859 times)

Offline yssuraxu_697

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2011, 09:46:30 AM »
Hey says that when the frequency of the rotor is above a critical point where the impedance of the coil (which is frequency related) is the highest, the ability of the coil of performing Lenz's Law is limited since the resistance is high and current is very low which reduces the counter magnetic field.

Well actual calculations that I did show that in romerouk setup things are opposite :) At 1250rpm his 1.2mH coilpairs (if that 1.2mH indeed goes for coilpair, not single one) should hit resonance with 47000uF cap. But in actual setup there are FWBRs between the coils and cap, besides interference picture forms from all the waveforms combined. I have done no experiments on what happends if you hit single cap with multiple resonant waveforms with phase shift...

Also there are LOWEST LOSSES when system is in resonant mode. I'm personally convinced that there is no "magic wall" in motor-generator performance. You just remove losses one by one. There are plenty to go around :P

Also RED FLAG for making your own multistrand and paralleling the ends. My tests show that hand made multistrand (did w/o twisting) has horrible performance and is good only for using in Tesla n-filar configuration, NOT in parallel.

These are just my findings, not absolute truth. Actual performance of replications will show...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2011, 09:46:30 AM »

Offline khabe

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2011, 10:34:29 AM »
I was studying Thains motor and I think he does explain pretty well what is going on here.

Hey says that when the frequency of the rotor is above a critical point where the impedance of the coil (which is frequency related) is the highest, the ability of the coil of performing Lenz's Law is limited since the resistance is high and current is very low which reduces the counter magnetic field.

When the frequency is too low, the impedance is the lowest and therefore the coil is ABLE to pass more current and therefore create more counter magnetic field. Frequency will be ZERO at TDC therefore the impedance will be equals the very low coils resistance of below 5 ohms, therefore creating more current.

His coils are not small. They are high value gauge which means they are very small diameter coils, with resistance on average of 1.5 ohms. Which kind of corroborate Romero's coils. Very low resistance.

Now, with the relay coil that I did a video demonstration I right away realized that although they are good in creating 12 volts they will not be good for this particular Muller design, they are 150+ohms. The only way I could think of reducing the resistance is, again corroborating what Romero did, is by using many strands of the same wire in parallel so that the total resistance will be much smaller while keeping the amount of turns high to allow creation of higher voltage.

I am not concerned with creating lots of current yet, since once the rotor rotation is aided by the "high voltage" coil (such as Thains explanation), the current will be available any way. What I mean is the parameters for design Romero's coils are:

- very small diameter of wire to allow more turns and aid in high voltage generation
- very small resistance (below 5 ohms) to allow the generation of current to be very limited when the impedance reaches the maximum. Litz wires come in mind.
- proportional size coils to magnets since too little magnets or too big coils may not be the most optimal for magnetic flux/cutting wires relationship.
- cogging reduction by using biasing magnets

This video from Thains explains that pretty well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czXmazZ4obs&feature=channel_video_title

Fausto.

hi Fausto,
Heins made nice experiments but why there written NASA  ???
For iimpressiveness  ::)
cheers,
khabe

Offline Tudi

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2011, 01:38:00 PM »
started reading : http://www.ostfalia.de/export/sites/default/de/pws/turtur/DownloadVerzeichnis/Series-english-5Articles.pdf at least he has some idea about some of the already working theories.
Figure 2 tries to explain in a nutshell why field create / collapse is good for you.
At some point he states there is a replication that has a 150n Watt gain. knocks your socks off i know.
But if he is right, wire length and a lot of small details might be very important to be able to replicate RomeroUK device. The amount of electric wave that are overlapped.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2011, 01:38:00 PM »
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Offline plengo

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2011, 02:26:32 PM »
hi Fausto,
Heins made nice experiments but why there written NASA  ???
For iimpressiveness  ::)
cheers,
khabe

The story goes that they showed their motor to NASA and other universities.

Fausto.

Offline khabe

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2011, 03:55:02 PM »
The story goes that they showed their motor to NASA and other universities.

Fausto.

Thank you very much, Fausto,
Your explication is sufficient,
Otherwise some simple guy thinks - oh yes  :o things are going on in NASA Laboratory  ::)
cheers,
khabe

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2011, 03:55:02 PM »
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Offline wings

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2011, 04:48:22 PM »
idiot chrome...how do i delete my post ? :(

started reading : http://www.ostfalia.de/export/sites/default/de/pws/turtur/DownloadVerzeichnis/Series-english-5Articles.pdf at least he has some idea about some of the already working theories.
Figure 2 tries to explain in a nutshell why field create / collapse is good for you.
At some point he states there is a replication that has a 150n Watt gain. knocks your socks off i know.
But if he is right, wire length and a lot of small details might be very important to be able to replicate RomeroUK device. The amount of electric wave that are overlapped.

if you like working theories this one :

http://electropub.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/cyril-smith-getting-energy-from-the-vacuum-is-easy/

Offline Tudi

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2011, 05:10:58 PM »
lol, the guys that kept saying for over 4 years that next year they will have a working device are making a post : "...is easy"
Nice

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2011, 05:10:58 PM »
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Offline EMdevices

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2011, 07:12:24 AM »
Romero's generator produced 12 v loaded and 15 v unloaded (at 12 v input) which means one pair of coils has about 3 ohms resistance given a 2 amp load current.    As we know, best power transfer occurs when load is also about 3 ohms, assuming the speed stays constant.

Here's a crucial insight into Romero's generator:

Same coils are used for motor and generator functions, so both will have the same induced voltage.  However, his input voltage is 12 V and output 15 volts.  This tells us he is pulsing way before max peak voltage, and the motor function stops and reverses into generator action as the voltage increases.

EM




Offline plengo

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2011, 05:42:49 PM »
Romero's generator produced 12 v loaded and 15 v unloaded (at 12 v input) which means one pair of coils has about 3 ohms resistance given a 2 amp load current.    As we know, best power transfer occurs when load is also about 3 ohms, assuming the speed stays constant.

Here's a crucial insight into Romero's generator:

Same coils are used for motor and generator functions, so both will have the same induced voltage.  However, his input voltage is 12 V and output 15 volts.  This tells us he is pulsing way before max peak voltage, and the motor function stops and reverses into generator action as the voltage increases.

EM

Very clever EM.

Fausto.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2011, 05:42:49 PM »
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Offline tysb3

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2011, 06:54:24 PM »
just my 2 cents, how could be tuned up the coils (attraction, or repulsion)

Offline plengo

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2011, 04:49:04 AM »
after watching this youtube video of the Muller motor presented by is daughter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfF23IvRqpY&feature=uploademail)  I am convinced that Romero did tell us the truth about his motor.

It is indeed very simple and fine tunning indeed is the biggest player here. No complicated parts at all. Just like I already presented in the beginning of this thread:

- SMOT effect (tri-gate) where the trigger coils aid in the remaining "putting out of balance" stick point where the rotor magnets repulsions cause the torque necessary for the rotation until balance again is reached (sticky point) which another trigger or triggers in sequence continue that process.
Think about this not like one single SMOT or gate but a series of gates just like the moon animated picture shows. Each coil / rotor magnet (or cell as I call it) is a gate and a part of a whole gate.  Also here Romero mention the necessity of having the magnets on the rotor being perfectly equidistant and coils with correct dimensions for the core - since they will attract the magnets.

- Biasing magnets on the back of the coils are for two reasons
   a) avoid cogging
   b) aid in the tunning

- coils of very low resistance and possibly relatively large inductance where back-EMF is recycled via the FWBR and extra diodes. A possibility for replacement of large inductance could be the use of Litz or multi-stranded wire where each wire helps in self-induction of each strand therefore effectively giving high inductance although low inductance when not in use (I could be wrong here, so shoot a helper comment please). Off course back EMF for the trigger coils. The other generator coils only need the FWBR and diodes.

So, with that being said one must envision a series of tests to prove each point. I think the cogging has been demonstrated and pretty much replicated by a few experimentalists.

The fine tunning could be done may be by simplifying the rotor to two magnets only (such as the picture which Romero already tested) and find the principal of balancing act via one coil and the magnets, possibly the coil with a biasing magnet too. This would pretty much demonstrate the SMOT effect and the out of balance action that the trigger coil can inflict.

To test the multi-strand small coil one could just build a rotor rotated by an external device or motor and attach to the perimeter of the rotating rotor a few small coils and measure their performance under load. I think some experimentalists also proved that indeed we can create around 2 watts of power spinning at around 1200 rpm.

I can see based on this very simple but orchestrated series of principles ways to improve this motor to an unbelievable level by simply implement a few techniques such as coil shorting on the generator coils, proper timing of the trigger by usage of micro-controllers, machined rotor and parts for perfect balancing and high RPM performance, coils manufactured to precision with corresponding proper balanced magnets for the correct counter magnetic attraction/repulsion action.

We can start just like Romero with a simple trigger and small generators coils. Romero also mention that the whole design SHOULD scale by maintaining its proportions since the "secret" is not in hidden events but simply the interaction of the principles established in this design.

I am not saying that the vacuum energy or zero-point is not present , probably is, what I am saying this is indeed a very simple device that needs relentless observation skills and tremendous patience in tunning.

And to complete my excessive craziness I will even propose a possible scenario that could logically and scientifically demonstrate that indeed this is possible. If the net energy necessary to move a magnet in repulsion to a stationary magnet of equal magnitude would be zero the only cost to make it happen would be an infinitesimal amount of energy to make the net not zero. Off course losses will make it more costly, but not impossible, while the inertia and magnetic induction of coils on the vicinity would be free, that being that the cost initially proposed to make net energy non zero is the only price to pay. Some will argue that the "free energy" would be embedded on the cost of the "non net zero external paid price", but I would argue that the magnet is indeed creating work which today is not counted at all in standard science.

Just to think that the magnets can repulse to me is work.

Shoot my ideas please and let's be focused. I will remove any response that is out of line and noizy! :) (specially the ones against my ideas   ;D  - just kidding - but seriously I will delete noisy posts).

Fausto.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 05:09:41 AM by plengo »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2011, 04:49:04 AM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2011, 05:03:03 AM »
Interesting animation fausto why not put this animation in the original thread I think that speaks a bit louder then the moon pictures. Where you are going with the whole gate theory.

I'm with you I think the magnets play a very important roll as does the arrangement.

Offline khabe

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2011, 08:19:57 AM »
Today night I did read about Muller and etc devices,
Valley inventors pursue free and clean energy generators, (by Jeane Manning, April 2005 , Okanagan Life)
on the end of this article we can read one interesting sentence:
"Worst-case scenario -  Even if the extraordinary magnetic generators never selfrun, they can still combine with and revolutionize improve wind and ridal energy."
So it means that these guys( (and girls) not claimed these machines selfrun today? At least 2005  not :o
cheers,
khabe

Offline khabe

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2011, 08:36:07 AM »
When you are trying to replicate Rom´s device then he told the primary thing is "high efficient" generator, while motor for spin this generator can be some other kind as well, even no needs it locates on the same rotor disc. So why to mess with leds, drivers and with "two diodes"  ::)
First thing is main principle of Rom´s coils set up
1.) rotor magnet acts to ferrous core coil and induces voltage ...
or
2.) rotor magnets are really only just like "power switshes" for the flux of coil top magnet 
??? 
First thing is to try to tune one coil pair with top  magnet, works it at all or not.
What is primary?
2.) rotor speed and number of magnets -> frequency ...
or ...
1.) rotor speed and diameter -> magnet velocity ...
When common generator then of course velocity of magnet.
When velocity of rotor magnet is important then (when all coils, magnets and gaps are as the same as possible) also rotor diameter (diameter where magnets are) must to be the same  - only then you can get appr. the same output voltage with the same RPM as Rom. And of course there must to be rectifier and capacitor already included.
 ::)
cheers,
khabe

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2011, 10:24:37 AM »
@Fausto,
I completely agree with your views. This principle has high potential.
One thing is worth having in mind: the fine tuning is required due to a number of reasons:

- tolerance of the coils
- tolerance of the cores
- tolerance of the magnets

If the spread in these components is too wide, fine tuning will not help enough and/or will be very time consuming.
Especially magnets can have big strength differences, up to 20%.

I am doing some 3D simulation with Ansys Maxwell to look at the sensitivity of these tolerances.
The nice thing with simulations is that you can set the tolerances to zero.
Doing that, results in a netto torque of zero over the 360 degrees circumference, even when full load is applied.
Cogging is still there in this particular design, but can also be minimized when size of magnets and mutual distance of the magnets are tuned in the design, but that's for later.

So, for best practice, I advise to buy more magnets than you require and select the best matched ones.
That will allow for much easier fine tuning.
There are few tricks to select magnets, but I am not sure we should discuss that here.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 10:46:56 AM by teslaalset »

 

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