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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists  (Read 165851 times)

Offline plengo

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Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« on: May 12, 2011, 07:04:21 AM »
I thought about an idea how this could work.

Take the rotor Romero did and its coils. There is one less magnet than coil. Cogging is there. Imagine now that we balance things so that cogging is even in every step, magnet approaching coil and passing by with net energy equal 0.

Now, if you spin the rotor fast enough it will somehow spin for a long time with zero energy loss caused by the cogging and only resistance losses. The energy necessary to pass the cogging is gained back as soon as it pass the coil, if repulsion is used as the mechanism. Such as Romero's design.

So far nothing new, no OU. Now, connect the coils to loads, such as 10 ohms resistors and again, balance the wheel by using distance of the magnets and coils and other ways so that cogging is again there but net zero with one difference now, we have a load and heat is created on the resistors. No OU yet, only more losses because of Lenz-laws.

Now, let's imagine that if the closed path of the whole wheel is balanced, as the rotor spins we generate electricity by the coils and the counter-EMF that increases the resistance of the cogging therefore causing greater losses.

How to fix that, imagine that if the closed magnetic path is very balanced in every step of the magnets passing by the coils will always have equal forces on all the points (magnets and coils) but what would happen if in one point we either loose some of the balance via making a magnet flux less intense, would not that cause the rotor to spin one revolution and cog at that unbalanced point?

Would be possible to now unbalance the opposing magnet/coil and restore the current magnet/coil balance causing the rotor to spin again with zero net loss/gain only paying for the unbalancing energy cost?

Would be possible to use the loads on the coils to be elements that cause that unbalance while using the energy generated when the rotor spins because the unbalance magnetic closed path flux?

I remember Romero saying that was very important to tune the motor with the proper load already connected so that the balancing would be specific to that load?

It sounds to me that one could create a very balanced closed path magnetic flux rotor where the coils are the pulsating unbalancing actors for causing the rotor to spin indefinitely only paying for the unbalancing cost which is NOT proportional to the strength of the rotation of the rotor. The rotor will spin proportional to the total magnetic energy in place, stronger magnets stronger spins and therefore more energy generated and less energy necessary to cause unbalance.

Please, shoot my idea.

Fausto.

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Offline powercat

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2011, 05:08:57 PM »
I can't say I have fully understood your argument, but it's good to hear someone focusing on what makes this motor unique  ;D

Quote
I remember Romero saying that was very important to tune the motor with the proper load already connected so that the balancing would be specific to that load?

Romero can only have tuned once  just before making the video ?

In the video he used different voltages on the DC to DC    and first there was no load and then later with the lamp there was a load,
at no time did I notice him retuning anything, so I think you only tune to make the motor run with no loud ?

This video is very interesting it was posted by David70 on the main thread, it was one of Romero's research videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCJKCXXZb-Y&feature=related

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.msg285933#msg285933

Here are the other two videos Romero was researching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX-PsJZzri8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTDGtSKrLPQ
it's great to see you are a moderator Fausto.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 05:52:05 PM by powercat »

Offline neptune

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2011, 05:53:14 PM »
@Powercat .Romero emphasised more than once that you MUST tune with a load . He said you must tune each coil with an [unspecified] load before connecting the output of its bridge to the common rails . The whole circuit is tuned again with a 21 watt bulb as a load .

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2011, 05:53:14 PM »
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Offline powercat

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2011, 06:08:59 PM »
@neptune, it sounds a bit like tuning an old car, using the distributor to find the middle ground for best all round performance, hmmm  maybe a strobe gun might help  ;)

Offline plengo

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 06:55:41 PM »
I can't say I have fully understood your argument, but it's good to hear someone focusing on what makes this motor unique  ;D

Romero can only have tuned once  just before making the video ?

In the video he used different voltages on the DC to DC    and first there was no load and then later with the lamp there was a load,
at no time did I notice him retuning anything, so I think you only tune to make the motor run with no loud ?

This video is very interesting it was posted by David70 on the main thread, it was one of Romero's research videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCJKCXXZb-Y&feature=related

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.msg285933#msg285933

Here are the other two videos Romero was researching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX-PsJZzri8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTDGtSKrLPQ
it's great to see you are a moderator Fausto.

thank you. I will look into it and got to home.

Fausto.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 06:55:41 PM »
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Offline plengo

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 07:00:14 PM »
I can't say I have fully understood your argument, but it's good to hear someone focusing on what makes this motor unique  ;D

It is about balance. Have you seen those magnetic bearings where friction is almost gone? Image now a rotor, like Romeros, in a kind of like magnetic bearing but the whole rotor is inside that bearing, the rotor is the bearing.

Now, if everything is very well balanced and having the coils with loads, one could spin that rotor very freely with no much energy loss neither input.

Now, again, if you somehow unbalance, or make the magnetic field non-linear, either by increasing one of the magnetic flux or by inputing energy in one of the cois, the whole rotor would spin to the proportion of the magnet's strength and stop cog where the field becomes asymmetrical.

The cost of making the whole field non-linear is way less, I think, than the force the strong magnets would inflict on the rotor spinning.

Fausto.

Offline totoalas

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2011, 11:08:33 PM »
Hi plengo
Magnetic bearing s a god idea
if we levitate the rotor  using magnets opposing each other in the bottom  and top
beside a stainless steel shaft  just like in vertical wind vane generators
Im trying to replicate  the design with ring magnets only from microwave ovens
and see where it will go

cheers
totoalas


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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2011, 11:08:33 PM »
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Offline plengo

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 12:48:55 AM »
Hi plengo
Magnetic bearing s a god idea
if we levitate the rotor  using magnets opposing each other in the bottom  and top
beside a stainless steel shaft  just like in vertical wind vane generators
Im trying to replicate  the design with ring magnets only from microwave ovens
and see where it will go

cheers
totoalas

sorry but it is not what I mean although also using magnetic bearings would improve.

Let me give a new shot at the problem, it will be long but bear with me.

Imagine a door that can revolve to both directions. On each side I put a strong man, both are equivalent strong and both are pushing the door with their hands. One is pushing to the right and the other man on the other side of the door is pushing to the left.

If both strong mans are pushing at the same force the door will not move, although lots of energy will be wasted by doing so. Imagine what would happen if one of the man becomes a little bit stronger and exert a little bit more force, let's say to the left, the door will move to the left to an equivalent amount of energy which would be the difference of both mans total work.

Whenever they both exert the same force the door would stop moving, although the total amount of energy used will be the sum of both strong man. Also total of net usable energy is 0 (Man1 - Man2 = 0).

Now, imagine that the door has a lock and I can lock it at the middle position and I do so when both man are pushing the door until a balance is reach, the door is in the middle and I lock the door. Now the door will not move even if one of the man's force is much greater than the other simply because the door is locked, although again, both are using a great amount energy and therefore the total energy on the system would be the sum of force of each man's push. Again net energy = 0 (Man1 - Door - Man2 + Door = 0).

Now, I will slide the man on the left just enough so that his hands are no longer on the door but on the wall besides the door. With that I used another amount of energy. So total energy used is Man1 + Man2 + sliding Man1 to the side. Door is not moving, it is locked still, remember? Net energy gained is still 0.

Now, what would happen if I unlock the door in this instance? it will open violently in the direction of Man2 exerting force. Imagine also that the door is connected to a generator so when the door opens violently it will generate electricity to an equivalent of the amount of energy Man2 put it in.

Total energy of the system now is not in balance. I have Man2 + moving Door Generated Energy + Man1 (pushing the unmoving wall) + Sliding Man1 energy to the side + unlocking the door. This time I have an extra energy (generated energy by moving the door) with still the same amount of the Man's used energy, plus a little bit extra the put it by sliding a man and unlocking the door, but still, much more energy than the first scenario available to good use.

Somehow I generated an extra amount of energy simply by making both Man not fighting each other. Obviously this is a scenario where we have things setup in the beginning so that the amount of energy generated and used to be 0 but in the second scenario we get an extra Man2 energy back.

Nothing special here so far. I am making an analogy of the Man's being the magnets and the door being the coil trigger and the door's generator being the other coils in the motor.

Now, imagine even if I replace the two man with two gigantic monster elefants. Would not the energy generated be of much higher value? Bigger magnets will create much greater counter balancing forces that when directed in a different way, just like when I slide one of the Man to the side, and also a much greater door pushing movement and therefore greater generated energy. Off course I pay a little bit more to slide gigantic elefants.

What I am trying to say is that the magnets, just like first scenario, are fighting against each other and counter balancing one another so no net energy created, only waisted. On the second scenario where I lock the door and move the Man2 and unlock the door, it is when we trigger the trigger coil so that both Mans (Magnets in opposition or total CLOSED PATH MAGNETIC FLUX) is not long in opposition and a non-linear situation is created where the net energy is not longer 0.

What I think it is happening on Romero's motor is something similar where the magnets are locked in place in a CLOSED PATH MAGNETIC FLUX where all are counter balancing each other just like the two mans on the door. When we pulse the trigger coil, a unbalancing act happens where the Magnets are trying to balance them selfs again and in doing so causes the rotor to spin and generate energy.

Off course when energy is generated Lenz law applies and cause resistance BUT the magnets are so freaking strong that the amount of resistance is too small to stop them and therefore they will spin until a stronger forcer stops it which is the cogging. At that instant the whole system is in balance again and the amount of energy generated is absolutely free and more important irrelevant to the balance of the system.

The clever situation here is they way the coils where arranged with more magnets on top and bottom causing a pumping effect where even more energy is created and a faster balancing act is created.

Triggering another coil will again put things out of balance and will cause the magnets to fight desperately for balance cause more spin and therefore more energy generated.

I think for this to be really possible one must disconnect the amount of rotation torque from the amount one pays to cause unbalance on the magnetic flux of the closed path. It is easy for me to see how it is possible by simply imagining the exact same motor with gigantic more than stronger magnets now. It will spin with an gigantic amount of torque which DID NOT COME from the trigger. It is inherent of the magnets.

If one turns of the trigger coil, the whole system will seek balance and stop rotating. Triggering again will unbalance things and cause it to spin or wiggle. Wiggle was the first effect we see on the second video when Romero's turns the machine on. He than pushes the rotor with his fingers helping the system to get into resonance so the rotation can pass the first cog. The next cogging effect is easy to win by simply being already part of the net zero energy in the system plus the inertia mass + the trigger input energy. Very small increments of trigger energy inserted into the system causes a greater and greater amount of torque by simply forcing the magnets to seek balance.

Makes sense now?? Anyone to help??

Fausto.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 05:02:24 AM by plengo »


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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 05:29:37 AM »
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Offline erikbuch

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 02:19:09 PM »
Great work Fausto!
Do you have the dimensions on the bobbins you ordered?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220690920914&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1123

It didnt say any measurement on ebay.

Best regards
Erik

Offline David70

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 06:14:17 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2011, 07:09:18 PM »
Great work Fausto!
Do you have the dimensions on the bobbins you ordered?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220690920914&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1123

It didnt say any measurement on ebay.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, 

In this link

http://www.gonesewing.com/servlet/Detail?no=122   

two measures turn out: Bobbin diameter measures 7/16" thick x 13/16" wide.

Gyula

Offline erikbuch

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2011, 08:38:11 PM »
Thank you Gyula!

Best regards
Erik

Offline My Do It Energy

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Offline Tudi

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Re: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2011, 11:29:46 PM »
don't kill the scpetics :(
- magnetic field without usage just makes other objects inherit their matnetic spin orientation ( get magnetized )
- inserting a metalic object into a magnetic field will make it change
- removing the metalic object will make it regain it's original state
- you invested energy to move closer the object and to remove the object. At this point only you made all the action.

now try to imagine :
- i move a wire in a magnetic field
- wire will have "current" in it
- i use this current on a bit further in a motor and convert it back to mechanical motion

i want to break the chain by making the motor run. I can run the motor as long as i'm sacrificing mechanical energy to move the wire closer to the magnets. I can deactivate the motor when the wire is at closest position to the magnet. This is all fine. What next ?

What i really would loved to see, romero having a lightbulb attached to the device as consumer. And make it run more then 5 hours. Yes i know, someone already explained to me that there was clear evidance this lightbulb was not needed. Still, it would have been a simple example to make most of us get very very excited.

Spent 2 days trying to figure out where the energy comes from. I completly agree with the balance part. I agree that the device can loop for days/weeks. I cannot figure out how it gets OU :(.
Someone said that the coils should get cold after a while, that is my best guess so far :(

Edit: Actually if one of the magnets is pulling all the time towards a coil, and none are in "pulling back mode" = the coil circuit is broken fizically, then in theory it should try to go forward all the time. No ?

 

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