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Author Topic: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser  (Read 121217 times)

Offline evolvingape

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2011, 03:01:40 PM »
Hi Mr Goose,

I hear ya loud and clear but I am excited, and when I am excited I let my mind run and get creative. These are all new applications for concepts I had already worked on but had no use for up to now.

I will come back and look at it all again when a little time has gone by, and probably adjust my thinking, but for now... I am enjoying the incredible speed my thoughts are travelling at... very stimulating... it is like a drug!

Respectfully,

RM :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline ElectricGoose

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2011, 03:15:48 PM »
OK OK LOL...excited is good but you know like the Boss at the Nike shoe factory says every morning - "Imagine this new sneaker not on your foot but up your ass if I don't see you working!!!"   :D

And you thought I was going to say "Just do it".

Regards

Offline evolvingape

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2011, 03:26:28 PM »
Haha ok  ;D

I know I might have got a little carried away with suggesting running an ICE directly from Gasification but I see no reason why it could not be done if the "plastic" content was high enough, and if the plastic is free who cares how much you use ? as long as you can fit it in the car that is  :D

The new Gasification ECV concept though is stunning to me because it uses off the shelf components and would directly power the turbine, this is why I am not concerned with "saving fuel". The electric vehicle application uses technology that is understood by everyone, available off the shelf (apart from the Winglet Turbine but there is a "how to build" resource for that), and the rest can be easily built with known concepts... So... I am EXCITED!  ;D

RM :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2011, 03:26:28 PM »
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Offline ElectricGoose

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2011, 03:33:55 PM »
Haha ok  ;D

I know I might have got a little carried away with suggesting running an ICE directly from Gasification but I see no reason why it could not be done if the "plastic" content was high enough, and if the plastic is free who cares how much you use ? as long as you can fit it in the car that is  :D

The new Gasification ECV concept though is stunning to me because it uses off the shelf components and would directly power the turbine, this is why I am not concerned with "saving fuel". The electric vehicle application uses technology that is understood by everyone, available off the shelf (apart from the Winglet Turbine but there is a "how to build" resource for that), and the rest can be easily built with known concepts... So... I am EXCITED!  ;D

RM :)

Your enthusiasms are founded in logic and I shall not be the one to disuade you from them!!   I know running ICE on near 100% water catalyst is possible and what you wish to accomplish is grand also.
If it means not buying new refined fuel from the bowser and cutting the carbon load.....its all gold.

See your way clear to the task and set your hand to it.  Godspeed.

Offline TheOne

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2011, 04:18:18 PM »
Wow
I can not believe how simple this plastic to fuel actually is!
This Fellow Jetjis is a Jem
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7040-how-turn-plastic-waste-into-diesel-fuel-cheaply.html

I'm not even half way through his thread yet!

350-400 C seems to be where this all starts to happen!

And with all the info being presented here ,getting the most out of the Mix will be very interesting indeed.
@Mr.Goose
Plasmatron??

Chet

I like this one, I want to make a big one like that, if I can make my own fuel in my garage its best :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2011, 04:18:18 PM »
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Offline TheOne

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2011, 04:57:26 PM »
What is the exact process to convert rubber/plastic into gasoline instead of diesel. Its seam this is mostly the same between the 2 but they are something I miss related to what kind of gas you can do and how to do it the way I want to.

Offline ElectricGoose

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2011, 05:09:39 PM »
@Mr.Goose
Plasmatron??

Chet

Yes Plasmatron Chet....not the Sony one.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2011, 05:09:39 PM »
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Offline ElectricGoose

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2011, 05:19:20 PM »
What is the exact process to convert rubber/plastic into gasoline instead of diesel. Its seam this is mostly the same between the 2 but they are something I miss related to what kind of gas you can do and how to do it the way I want to.

All the pertinent KEY information has been posted.  Go back and have a read of all the links while the thread is still young.  It won't take you long.

In answer to your question - If you want to run a Gasoline engine on waste plastic or any biomass (that is carbon based), STOP thinking old technology of liquid fuels wastefully sprayed into the engine.... research 'fuel reforming' (cracking) and also steam reforming.

THEN think how you can simply deliver that volatile gas on demand into a standard ICE.   

Knowledge is power.  With it you can build anything.

Offline TheOne

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2011, 06:20:32 PM »
On demand system is not the way to go for me. why?

Usually when I use my car, its for small trip that take around 20 min, if the process of gasifiing take 5/15 min to start you lose time. And you need to carry the reactor with suffisent plastic/rubber

While at home you can make your device, let the device do the work while you are doing other thing, just need to get the fuel generated and put in the car when you need it, you are creating your own gas station.

I will buy some big container this week and start on similar to the one made on the other forum, I have space, big garage, so its not a problem for me to use space for that.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2011, 06:20:32 PM »
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Offline evolvingape

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2011, 08:01:56 PM »
Hello Everyone,

I am going to give you an update on where I am with my thought processes and with my direction.

If your direction is ICE engines then I am not really the man to speak to, I have never been particularly interested in them and have not invested much time into them. The reason for this is that so many other people are pursuing this route that I figured my time would be better spent elsewhere.

The information that I have posted related to gasification devices for ICE's was not designed by me for that purpose. When Mr Goose generously shared with me his knowledge of gasification technology I realised I already had the hardware you all required worked out, I just had to adapt it for a new purpose. This I have now done and you have both cheap off the shelf adaptations and custom adaptations using HELIS technology to play with.

Now, my direction is turbines, I am a turbine man through and through. I know how good they are and I want to show YOU how good they are. Everything you have read about HHO PCT's and the RotoMax and the I0toMax has come about because I needed an on demand fuel to power a turbine for an electric car. This is where I was going all along with the development of these technologies. I hinted at the electric car option but I was waiting for my work to be proven before I told you about it.

The problem I had with HHO was the old problem of overunity or not. I had to replace that energy before I got anything out to power the car, which is why I spent so many years on developing the open system theory. There's one headache I am glad is over!

When I became aware of the possibility of gasification of waste plastics and the potential for fuel it presented it took a few days for it all to sink in. Once I had grasped the concept I started to see what I could do with it. This was actually a very simple process for me, because I realised that all of the work I did with HHO could be oh so simply adapted to plastic fuel.

The difference is that the MAJOR processing has already been done and the cost has been paid, the MINOR processing can be done by me, or you, and is as simple as lighting a fire.

The Gasifier Energy Conversion Valve is incredibly important. Nearly all of you will instantly recognise the components and will realise that it is going to work. The one question mark with it for me is will the heat destroy the permanent magnetic field of the Neodymium Magnet ? It might, if it goes over 350 C and your using a 350 C magnet but I don't care about that... you know why ?

The only reason I designed it with a voice coil actuator is because it is incredibly easy to adapt to the design, an actual production model will probably use a solenoid actuator instead. So it's not a problem. Everything else about the valve works to standard principles that are known to be fact, there is no real theoretical R&D to do with it. It is going to work.

What this means is that I have a reliable prime mover for my turbine, the one thing I could not be sure about until the Linear Firing Valve is proven or not. I also do not have to worry about overunity or not, the fuel is paid for and I am getting it for free, and there is a hell of a lot of it.

This is WHY I AM SO EXCITED!

The one remaining question we have is will we be able to detonate the atomised water / plastic gas mix reliably ?

I don't know yet, and neither do you until you have built a GECV and tested it.

However what I do know is that we can harvest sunlight and turn that into HHO. HHO is a primary explosive and is very easy to detonate, hence all the frequent warnings to be extremely careful!

The reason I gave you the design for the Water / Oil / HHO Injector Mk3 is because you can add a primary explosive to the mix just before mixing and injection to the chamber. Combine this with a Multi Spark Buzz Coil and you have a reliable ignition, which will then detonate the water / oil mix and give us our working fluid.

We already have the ideal ship to mount all this technology on. Cargo ships that carry Intermodal Containers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_Container

Adapt the ship to distil seawater and use that pure water as part of our working fluid, so as to prevent pumping salt and other impurities through our turbines. Equip the ship with many turbine generators that provide all the power we need to power the process the system needs to perform.

Equip the ship with huge melting pots that first process the plastic at 100 C, this will mean that all of the low melt plastics will turn to liquid and the high melt plastics will remain solid. This low melt  liquid is then tapped off from the bottom of the still and shaped into small pellets which are then allowed to cool and stored in the ISO containers.

The high melt plastics that remain are used to provide the fuel for the entire process and power the ship.

When the ISO containers are full the ship raises it's anker and sails off to a cargo port to unload and deliver the PRODUCT. The low melt plastic pellets that are used to fuel the electric cars run by the same technology. A new ship replaces it and the process continues uninterrupted.

Have a read of these three links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Garbage_Patch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_Garbage_Patch

Important points to note:

As the plastic flotsam photodegrades into smaller and smaller pieces, it concentrates in the upper water column. As it disintegrates, the plastic ultimately becomes small enough to be ingested by aquatic organisms which reside near the ocean's surface. Plastic waste thus enters the food chain through its concentration in the neuston. Some plastics decompose within a year of entering the water, leaching potentially toxic chemicals such as bisphenol A, PCBs and derivatives of polystyrene.

Density of plastics through water column

Charles Moore has estimated the mass of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch at 100 million tons.

So, there is a lot of it, and it is nearly all near the surface. This means we can collect it relatively easily! Great news!!

So who is going to help me get this done ?

RM :)

Online ramset

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2011, 09:35:37 PM »
RM
As you know ........I love your ideas!! And knowing that Real science backs up most of them,thats even greater!

I want to explore the Fuelcycle end of this "plastic to fuel",as I posted in the link. Jetjis at Energetic is all over this in Latvia.

I have approached A few Chums and we will be building a unit completely open Source!

And once we have fuel to play with I plan on puttin a few Screws to the Goose for this
EGoose Quote:

" I know running ICE on near 100% water catalyst is possible and what you wish to accomplish is grand also."

I Have a dream.....................

If we build it they will come!!
Chet


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2011, 09:35:37 PM »
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Offline evolvingape

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2011, 10:20:24 PM »
Hi Chet,

Ok. You have always been nice to me and your desire to learn and help is demonstrably genuine so I have decided I am going to help you, free of charge. Hopefully this information will save you time and energy and allow you to focus your intention.

EGoose Quote:

" I know running ICE on near 100% water catalyst is possible and what you wish to accomplish is grand also."

I will deal with the second part of this quote first. I interpret this as Mr Goose understanding that I have tried to develop a HHO powered turbine. He knows how hard this is to do and that only NASA  and maybe a few of the big aerospace corporations have attempted to do this. This was his way of saying “good effort RM” in my opinion.

The first of the quote is a little more complicated...

There seems to be a conditioned mindset rampant that thinks liquid fuel is best. Best for storage, best for burning. This is flawed on quite a few levels.

What we are interested in is the energetic state of the material. When we think of water as a liquid it is inert right ? When we split it into it's base components of 2H and 1O it becomes a primary explosive.

Now lets think about petrol, in its liquid state it burns, if you have a barrel of it sitting around covered and then you take the cover off and carelessly flick your cigarette butt into it then it explodes and you shit yourself, if you live...

This is the difference in energy states... you guys all really need to understand this and quick or your going to waste your resources and time very efficiently!

When we are talking about converting plastic into fuel liquid is a transitional stage, it is not a desirable end product to then use. What does this mean ?

It means that in order to convert plastic to fuel we must heat it so it melts, this then turns to liquid. You CANNOT store this liquid unless you continually add energy to keep it in the temperature range that it exists as liquid. As soon as you remove the heat source by taking it off the burner and placing it into your garage it begins to cool and turns SOLID.

This works to our advantage because in order to utilise it as fuel we only need to add heat and it emits GAS... which is the most ENERGETIC STATE of this material, and the most useful to us. Anyone planning to use liquid plastic (OIL) as fuel is wasting energy.

Now I want you to read this page:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28physics%29

You thought you had a pretty good grasp on what Power was right ? Still think that after reading that link ??

Here is a key excerpt from that incredibly important page...


"Differentiating by time gives that the instantaneous power is equal to the force times the object's velocity v(t):

This formula is important in characterizing engines—the power output of an engine is equal to the force it exerts multiplied by its velocity." (Look for the formula on the page it will not let me copy it)

I will simplify that page for you:

Power = Force X Time

Therefore:

Power = Force X Velocity

Because Power is the rate at which work is done...

Liquid is oh so slow... Gas is oh so fast...

Forget liquid, embrace gas for detonation, and solids for storage... the liquid stage can be almost completely removed if you get the temperature of your “reactor” right!

Hope that helps, any questions let me know and I will help you if I can

RM :)




Offline ElectricGoose

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2011, 02:14:42 AM »
RM

MY POINTS EXACTLY AND BEAUTIFULLY STATED!!

Liquid  = slow burning, wasteful, polluting.
Gas = Fast, clean, efficient.

LIQUIDS for STORING (view it as condensed fuel), GAS for 'burning'.

This has been what I have been trying to get across to you fellas no matter which route you take.  Even a rudimentary water/gasoline bubbler (the simplest fuel saver of them all) which you can test on a lawn mower or small gen, 'fumes' (essentially gasifying) the fuel.  There is no real catalytic process happening without adding a converter but its a START in your massive stakes to save energy.

This is the beauty of water.  You have one litre of 'condensed' benign liquid unable to burn or cause harm in its storage state in which the gasses alone can be expanded out many fold.  CATALYTIC cracking is the key to smashing water without vast sums of electrical energy.

@ The One - Sounds like you should start with a simple fuel saver device rather than go to the trouble of RM's plastic gasifier for now.  If you have an old carburretor engine, I suggest the gasoline/water bubbler which would IMMEDIATELY save you 30 - 40% without any heartache or a lot of mucking around in the garage.

Online ramset

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2011, 02:48:17 AM »
Fellows,
I'm going to go back over this thread and study a bit! Just for clarity ,I never intended to use the "product {liquid] In a standard fashion,Just as a baseline .............

One other thing ,I do intend to use it to heat homes ,obviously if the "Gas" is more efficient at doing this {by a significant margin] Than Gas it will be,and likewise for the ICE.

Steering me in the right direction from the get go is very important,Determining the power needs of the ICE or the BTU requirements of the Heater would help to establish if on demand is feasible?[can the gas be generated fast enough,or can it be modified to be more efficient [Ala Goose?]]

Storage has its benefits and if the raw fuel can be "enhanced"??
Also fitting into an existing liquid fuel infrastructure with a fairly docile fuel does have its advantages,but I must concede, not at the expense of efficiency!

Gotta Study here
Thanks fellahs
Chet

« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 03:08:51 AM by ramset »

Offline evolvingape

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Re: Alternate Fuel for Diesel and Gasoline Engines - 100% off the Bowser
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2011, 02:57:58 AM »
Hi Everyone,

I think I need to apologise to Mr Goose, I have opened a big can of worms here and this is just what you did not want in this thread...

Here are 3 links that pretty well sum up what I was trying to tell you before:

http://juliediamond.wordpress.com/2008/06/13/force-x-distancetime-power/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080713070258AAUNzl8

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/k-6connection/forwpsa.htm

The last link is an educational resource that asks questions and gets you thinking about the concepts, the first two are more a discussion between people about power and so I have reproduced the comments below:

You got me thinking about pwer equations.

Power is the rate at which work is done, or the rate at which energy is used transferred.

work done = force x distance

power = work done / time taken

If work is being done by a machine moving at speed v against a constant force, or resistance, F, then since work done is force times distance, work done per second is Fv, which is the same as power. P = Fv

speed = distance / time
Power = force x speed

Power = Voltage x Current

Then of course you can add in resistance … !

Outside of physics, all of these formulas seem applicable to psychological processes.

Interesting stuff !
- Jude

=====

Power = Force times Velocity? Really?
Ok, "we can also express the rate at which a force does work on a particle in terms of that force and the particle's velocity".

I'm trying to "see it" conceptually. My primary visualization is that I imagine an x-y coordinate system, x axis is displacement, y is force.

Now I "turn on" the x-axis like a treadmill, and set the treadmill to "5 meters per second" and the x-axis starts going left (i.e. 5 becomes 4, 4 becomes 3, etc...)

Now I "look" at the x-y coordinate system, and draw the Force function onto the graph as if the treadmill were switched off, between the limits of integration.

Now I sorta "visualize" what the result would be if I drew the graph while the X-axis was sliding (treadmill on) but I thought it was off (no sliding).

As a matter of fact, it would be a perfect "stretching" and the effect of the treadmill on the force*distance, is the effect of replacing displacement with velocity in the P=F*V equation! I think I got it!

Additional Details
yeah, all I did was change the reference frame. Instead of the particle having velocity, I decided to give my coordinate system some velocity, and define the particle to be motionless.

=====

That visualization seems way too complicated...(but OK if it works for you).

The way I visualize it is to imagine a force acting on a particle for a particular amount of time--say 1 second.

The work done on the particle is Force × the distance it moved.

Power is work/time, so that is:
P = (force × distance) / time

But that's the same as:
P = force × (distance / time)

And since (distance / time) = speed,
P = force × speed

=====

You are overcomplicating it.

Remember that power is a rate of flow, like gallons per minute.
Power is the rate that energy flows, or is used or is generated.

Energy or work is force x distance.

The rate energy is used (power) is energy/time, or force x distance/time.

distance/time is velocity, which leaves Power = F x V

=====

I know that the formulas as they stand contradict my statement that Force = Power X Time, however speed, distance and time are intimately related and from this arises velocity which is a rate of change same as time is.

What I was trying to say is that a gas allows for a much higher release of energy than liquid over the same time. I tend to think of Velocity and Time as the same thing which is a rate of change over a distance, but it depends on your reference point.

Ok, no more of this, I will stick to the hardware from now on. It was an error to bring this up here. I am now reminded of my favourite quote by Tesla:

"The mind seeks to complicate, so simplify"

RM :)




 

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