Author Topic: Overunity Parametric Oscillator? (Read 33204 times)

giantkiller · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2011, 09:25:13 PM »

You would to match the tank frequency to a harmonic of the resonate freq of the transformer core. Its like the opera singer breaking a glass with their voice.

Sprocket · « **Reply #16 on:** April 21, 2011, 03:26:17 AM »

Well, I gave it a go. Both primaries = 350mH. Tried it with 1, 2 and 4.7uF caps. Used a relay to short one of the primaries, energised by my old pulse generator. The relay probably manages ok up to about 150HZ. No lovely sine-waves I'm afraid but it does produce a amplitude modulated rough 200HZ sine on one of the secondaries, up to a max of about 100mV. I'm assuming the 200HZ is just a harmonic of the 50HZ mains. I expected to see nothing at all so it wasn't a total loss...

nul-points · « **Reply #17 on:** April 21, 2011, 09:08:57 AM »

hi Neptune & Sprocket

could you guys either post schematics or links to such of the circuits you're experimenting with?

if you're using AC excitation of the LC elements then the L & C components need to be resonant at the drive freq(s)

eg at 50Hz, with 350mH (combined) primary, then C should be approx 29uF for resonance

thanks
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Sprocket · « **Reply #18 on:** April 21, 2011, 01:35:38 PM »

I just tried what neptune suggested, namely 2 MOT primaries in series, and in parallel with a capacitor, then short one of the primaries with a relay and monitor either of the secondaries. No AC excitation involved, just a plain-vanilla parallel LC circuit whose resonant frequency I calculated at about 269Hz, so as per neptune's theory, shorting it at half that might produce interesting results. It didn't, but at least something was happening which surprised me especially as there was no attempt to inject any waveform into the transformers. With the 50Hz 'hum' everywhere, I would have expected to see this (if anything) on the secondary, instead I see a 200Hz AM-signal which varies in both amplitude and frequency - the modulation, not the 200Hz - as I adjust the rate the relay is being switched at.

nul-points · « **Reply #19 on:** April 21, 2011, 02:03:38 PM »

Quote from: Sprocket on April 21, 2011, 01:35:38 PM

No AC excitation involved
...
a parallel LC circuit whose resonant frequency I calculated at about 269Hz, so as per neptune's theory, shorting it at half that

ok, thanks Sprocket

my reading of the JLN Parametric Osc experiments (eg. v4, say, courtesy of Fred Apps),

link: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/params40.htm

is that both an input signal plus a switching signal is used

also, note that the suggested switching freq is 2x the LC res freq. - not half, as in your latest test

hope this helps
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

neptune · « **Reply #20 on:** April 21, 2011, 04:28:44 PM »

@Sprocket . Thanks for trying that experiment . My idea of the 2 microwave transformers is at best a crude lash-up , but it is interesting to note that you got some energy out of it with no input except switching .As nul-points says , the switching frequency needs to be twice the resonant freq of the tank circuit .Ultimately , a better set up would be a custom wound inductor on a core with various taps , so the percentage of the coil that gets shorted can be varied . It seems to me you already have energy from nowhere .Now optimisation is the name of the game .I suggested using the secondaries as a test point , but with a custom inductor , a low value resistor could be used for current measurement.Note aso , on Naudins site , the circuit by Fred Apps sing a bifilar coil . One could also look at varying the capacitance instead of the inductance , by having 2 caps in series , and shorting one of them .

Sprocket · « **Reply #21 on:** April 21, 2011, 06:09:53 PM »

Sorry about that, I thought you said half the frequency! That said, I was checking doubling as well when I tried the 2 (maybe) and 4.7uF (definitely) capacitors. All produced more or less the same output. The output itself I had presumed was simply induced from the copious amounts of mains-tied wiring in the average house, though why I see 200Hz rather than 50Hz is a mystery.

I have a feeling that the change in inductance or capacitance would need to be 'dynamic' as opposed to a step-function you'd get from shorting. Of course I bow to Naudin if he says differently. Someone posted a pic of that large spinning aluminium capacitor earlier - this I could see working! I used to have several of those vintage aluminium 500-1000pF tuning capacitors from radios at one time - lost now though - but they would be interesting to play with, even though quite a lot of engineering would probably have to be done to get it to spin freely.

neptune · « **Reply #22 on:** April 21, 2011, 06:45:27 PM »

@Sprocket .I feel that if this is going to work , it is going to be very critical on tuning . Ideally the switching rate needs to be exactly twice the resonant frequency , and correctly phased .So the points of transients of the square wave need to coincide with the peaks and crossover points of the output sine wave . Once the principle is proved to work , some kind of feedback mechanism could do the job .Re your theory of dynamic change as opposed to step change . Your theory is as likely to be valid as Naudins or anyone elses .This could be done by varing the capacitance [see my last post] and substituting a load of varicap diodes for one of the fixed caps .Now apply a driving signal to the varicaps which is like a sine wave superimposed on a DC voltage so the signal never goes negative . Frequency of said sinewave to be twice resonant frequency of tank .

nul-points · « **Reply #23 on:** April 21, 2011, 11:37:17 PM »

hi guys

my brain has obviously been in 'park' whilst you've been discussing using two inductors in series - you're right Sprocket, the L & C have to be the same single component whose parameter gets changed - you can't switch another L or C in or out because the stored field has to exist within the component to be modified

so the sequence is something like:
- apply signal to store field in component value X
- alter value X to value Y
- recover new signal from stored field in component value Y

i think that its going to be easier for you to use L as the parametric component because varicaps have such a low capacitance that your frequency would need to be 10s of MHz, or more likely at least 100MHz

variable rotor capacitors would enable a lower frequency, but still probably in the range units-10s of MHz

as you say, you'll need to tap the coil at a suitable point (or mount two coils on the same core)

hope this helps
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

romerouk · « **Reply #24 on:** April 22, 2011, 12:16:46 AM »

@giantkiller
Where did you get the picture from Magnacoasters?

neptune · « **Reply #25 on:** April 22, 2011, 03:21:58 PM »

@nul-points . Thanks for that interesting post . A useful experiment would be to use a center tapped transformer as a starting point . Then , if that looks promising we could build a custom inductor with multiple taps .

Sprocket · « **Reply #26 on:** April 24, 2011, 01:48:20 AM »

I hesitate to post but for completeness, yesterday I actually checked the switching speed of the relay I was using - about 40Hz was the best it could do, everything above that was hit-and-miss! So I went rummaging and found a physically much smaller relay which managed a much more respectable 250-260Hz. With the same setup & capacitors, I was getting nothing like I posted earlier. There is still an output but nowhere as well defined and definitely no AM.

Vortex1 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 13, 2011, 03:42:58 PM »

Perhaps check this out:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=26.msg13781#new

Read the thread from the start, not the last post.

Operating the cores at saturation knee can cause parametric pumping effect.

ramset · « **Reply #28 on:** May 13, 2011, 03:51:13 PM »

Vortex1
Sir the link you posted appears to require membership to View?
Or am I doing something wrong?
Thanks
Chet

Vortex1 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 13, 2011, 03:57:45 PM »

Chet:

It is my bench on OUR.com. Thought you were a member. Did you login?

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Author Topic: Overunity Parametric Oscillator? (Read 33204 times)

giantkiller

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Sprocket

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nul-points

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ramset

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