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Author Topic: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement  (Read 53970 times)

Offline mscoffman

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2011, 10:59:57 PM »
@billmehess;

Just to play devils advocate a bit - let me suggest a way
that nature does not give up so easily - please make
my day and prove the following text wrong. :-)

->

Both gravity and magnetism are conservative forces.
Neither force has insulators (without some exotic
energy intensive methods - like superconductivity)
So it's impossible to create a magnetic commutator
switch in the sense of one in  a standard DC motor.
But there is  one insulator; that is radius squared
distance to a point  magnetic pole (which always comes
in pairs again conventionally).

The problem is defeating R^2 is the construction of
magnetic arrays. So in a sense there is a near-magnetic
field and a far magnetic field and the array keeps on
building the far magnetic field as you add more elements
to the array. This will cause the ball to misbehave at a
greater and greater distance from the array even when
it's not in it. The question is simply: "Is this problem
an absolute one?"

Remember the time that a medical patient was fatally
injured when a ferrous fire-extinguisher was sucked
into the scanner part of an MRI machine when he was
being scanned, an MRI machine which has a powerful
rotating magnetic array. Implying that the far
field can become quite strong under the right
circumstances.

My concern is that the array will look like it's working
until the time comes where forces balance and then at
the end of the array the ball begins to misbehave.
That misbehavior will take on statistical properties
- meaning that; "The ball is not fully under engineering
control."

Now, magnetic flux can be conducted with an iron
armature. The presents of the armature will change the
functioning of the array but should also reduce the far field
effects. As I've said an iron pipe can probably serve as
an armature to isolate parts of the device, but you
may have new entry and exit problems then to contend
with.

<-

As I said at first, please make my day and prove my
above text is incorrect. For example maybe Neodymium
Magnets change the equation.


:S:MarkSCoffman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline billmehess

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2011, 12:23:32 AM »
Hi Mark
Confession is good for the soul, I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Its way over my head.
I have tried to approach this with a purposely simple attitude. I consider this device to be similar to a water wheel in a flowing river. The water flowing at a fairly constant rate to me is similar
to the magnetic field projecting from a array of magnets. The ball simply gets caught up in this field and is dragged along until it exits the gate. This of course is due to the v shape acting more strongly on the ball as it moves up the ramp. What I have noticed though is that when I first built some really huge SMOTS, 32" long with over 400 magnets that at the start with the larger space between the two sides to the end with the tapered spacing the speed was at the beginning  slowed down as the ball went up the ramp.
This is due to friction not ( I believe) any anomaly with magnetic fields. It is the correct spacing, distance measurements that have got me to where I am at. My tolerances are down to 1/32" in some spots.
Potential energy in the initial ball placement is a non issue. The ball does not care how it got there. It is simply acting at any specific moment on the immediate magnetic and or gravitational forces that
it encounters a any point in time.
I am down to 1/8" from having the ball reentering the SMOT.
The entry point is 1 3/8" from the base and he exit point of the ramp is 1 1/2".
The ball landing on the entry plate down the u channel to the receiving plate and looping to the entry uchannel must drop a total of  1/2".
Bill

Offline billmehess

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2011, 09:26:38 AM »
It might be worthwhile to have a length of cast iron
pipe. They used this in city-gas, compressed air and fire
sprinkler distribution systems. This may be of use to
isolate a steel runner (not a magnet) from the influence
of external magnetic fields if the runner misbehaves
and it is not at an end. Just heat the plastic tube
and slide it over the iron pipe and do the opposite
at the other end. The external mag field should flow
around in the body of the pipe leaving the ball inside
alone to roll on.

:S:MarkSCoffman
I tried wrapping a plastic tube with mu-metal but his caused a distortion in the magnetic field to a degree that the ball would not exit the gate.
I will try this suggestion of yours and take a small cast iron pipe and slide over a plastic tube of it.
This does not seem that it would cause any distortion in the field.
These last few fractions of an inch are all that's holding me back at this point.  I am also intergating at this time the energy generation system into the device.
Thank you for your input.
Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2011, 09:26:38 AM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2011, 07:42:07 PM »
@billmehess,

Perhaps you have the right idea. The ball needs to go
around, but nobody says it needs to go around rapidly.
Perhaps you could use one of those very inexpensive
plastic mechanical alarm clocks powered by an AA battery.
Convert it to run on array power.
And use something attached to the minute hand to simply
push the ball runner out the array end and into the metal
(drain) pipe. Perhaps like the rollers of a peristaltic pump
- never having to remove the ball from tube. The clock
motor probably draws only a few microamps average to
run, at only 1.5 volts DC.

:S:MarkSCoffman



Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2011, 08:24:01 PM »
Hi Mark,

When you mentioned using a powered mechanical system this toy came to mind "Solar roller coaster".

http://www.ambientweather.com/scmbecl28404.html

Replace the balls with a N52 neo-mag sphere and line the track with pickup coils fed to an ultra-cap.

Lego great ball contraption 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9VBQ3hW6t8

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2011, 08:24:01 PM »
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Offline billmehess

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2011, 01:02:26 AM »
I don't see any reason not to reveal what I will use to generate power. I am going to use a piezo
energy harvester. The ball dropping into the scoop will cause the piezo harvester to generate a pulse which can be fed into a capacitor. Also the one I am ordering is so sensitive that the ball rolling on the rail will have enough vibration to create a voltage continuously as long as the ball is moving.
Also with this device it would be possible to run multiple balls for increase voltage production.
The good thing about this method is that there is no drag on the ball at all!
Bill

Offline billmehess

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2011, 03:56:55 AM »
Here are some elevation numbers where I am right now. The entry point elevation from the base line is 2 7/8" or 72 mm

The exit elevation from the scoop  to the base line is 3 1/16" or 77mm.

The ball exits 3/16" in. or 5 mm. HIGHER than when it enters the SMOT.

I need it to be 1/2" higher so there will be sufficient slope to reenter the SMOT so I am at this point
5/16" short.
Working daily on the problem.
Bill


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2011, 03:56:55 AM »
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Offline Poit

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2011, 04:06:08 AM »
Hi Mark,

When you mentioned using a powered mechanical system this toy came to mind "Solar roller coaster".

http://www.ambientweather.com/scmbecl28404.html

Replace the balls with a N52 neo-mag sphere and line the track with pickup coils fed to an ultra-cap.

Lego great ball contraption 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9VBQ3hW6t8

lol!! loved the lego video....

Offline Poit

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2011, 04:08:22 AM »
Here are some elevation numbers where I am right now. The entry point elevation from the base line is 2 7/8" or 72 mm

The exit elevation from the scoop  to the base line is 3 1/16" or 77mm.

The ball exits 3/16" in. or 5 mm. HIGHER than when it enters the SMOT.

I need it to be 1/2" higher so there will be sufficient slope to reenter the SMOT so I am at this point
5/16" short.
Working daily on the problem.
Bill

I believe your inches to millimetre conversions are WAY off lol.... 10mm = 1cm.... 77mm = 3.03 inches

a decimal point is in order? 7.7mm?

EDIT - I just re-read your quote... never mind lol...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2011, 04:08:22 AM »
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Offline billmehess

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2011, 06:26:20 PM »
Update;
Been working all weekend , here is what I can now do

1.The ball from a start position moves up the incline of the SMOT
2. The ball exits the end
3. The ball falls into the scoop
4.The ball exits the scoop to the entry glass platform
5. The ball rolls down the glass and exits the glass onto the connecting uchannel
6.The ball exits the uchannel onto the glass receiving platform
7.The ball rolls across the glass platform to the edge of the entrance of the uchannel on the SMOT.

The entire spacing from the exit to the entry has been made up. Next to modify slightly the SMOT to accept the ball.
The complete roll around from entry to entry has been achieved.
Bill

Offline mscoffman

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2011, 08:04:05 PM »

...
1.The ball from a start position moves up the incline of the SMOT
2. The ball exits the end
3. The ball falls into the scoop
4.The ball exits the scoop to the entry glass platform
5. The ball rolls down the glass and exits the glass onto the connecting uchannel
6.The ball exits the uchannel onto the glass receiving platform
7.The ball rolls across the glass platform to the edge of the entrance of the uchannel on the SMOT.

The entire spacing from the exit to the entry has been made up. Next to modify slightly the SMOT to accept the ball.
...

Bill,
Excellent! Congratulations with what you have done so far. Fortunately
from the other projects you have worked on I consider you completely
trustworthy and a true scientist. I am getting ready to "flip the bits"
in my belief system to "true" when it comes to magnetic perpetual motion.
*So* many other folks said they had tried to do this but were unable too
do this.

There are three things you might want to consider "for fun" right now
while you get the last things cleaned up on your current path

a) Whether the ball becomes gaussed over time.
(the opposite of degaussing). Slightly different materials for the
ball might prevent this from occurring or investing *some* output
energy in degaussing might be required.

b) Whether a lead metal core for the ball might increase the energy
in the system.

c) Whether a balance rocker beam over all or part of the array
might make sense. This would make for a different demo and might
make it possible to couple mechanical energy out easier. This would
make for a neat demo clock escapement. If that is the correct word.

d) It might be good to see if you can set up a non-neodynium
magnet version of this in an attempt to sidestep the Chinese
rare-earths availability restrictions and non-neodynium magnet
erasability issues. (Plucking it from the MIB mawl as it were).
This would probably take some time to test in parallel with other
things.   

Let us know how things are going!

:S:MarkSCoffman


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2011, 08:04:05 PM »
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Offline billmehess

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2011, 08:56:34 PM »
Thank you Mark

Always good suggestions from you. I mentioned a few posts ago that I would be employing a peizo
"energy harvester" to extract voltage from the system. The ball falling into the scoop and the continuous vibration of the ball on the system will generate voltage. Also multiple balls could be employed for increased output.
This system is completely scalable. Imagine instead of a 1/2" in diameter ball a ball x number of inches in diameter.
I am sure a whole new set of challenges will rear their ugly heads a I try to finish this last bit up.
Anyway the quest continuous.
Bill
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 09:16:47 PM by billmehess »

Offline Poit

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2011, 01:38:13 AM »
Thank you Mark

Always good suggestions from you. I mentioned a few posts ago that I would be employing a peizo
"energy harvester" to extract voltage from the system. The ball falling into the scoop and the continuous vibration of the ball on the system will generate voltage. Also multiple balls could be employed for increased output.
This system is completely scalable. Imagine instead of a 1/2" in diameter ball a ball x number of inches in diameter.
I am sure a whole new set of challenges will rear their ugly heads a I try to finish this last bit up.
Anyway the quest continuous.
Bill

I gather you are using a steel ball? (i.e not magnetic?)

Offline billmehess

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2011, 04:15:03 AM »
I gather you are using a steel ball? (i.e not magnetic?)
Yes a steel ball approx. 1/2" in diameter from ACE Hardware. It is non magnetic.
Bill

Offline mscoffman

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Re: SMOT - Close to closing the loop ,second video-BIG improvement
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2011, 10:39:39 PM »
@billmehess,

Bill;
Your implementation seems very compact. I hope you don't plan on taking
too much time implementing the displayable energy led device. It would seem
real easy to put a coil around the whole upslope array. I'd really like to see
you get credit for closing the loop on the SMOT. It would be interesting
to know if you can get the ball to speed up by placing a magnetic array on the
return slope like groundloop described, or if this causes the dreaded "sticky spot".
This would indicate that you could add energy margins if need be, so that maintaining
control is not a function of decreasing runner momentum.

:S:MarkSCoffman

 

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