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Author Topic: standing wave coil frequency  (Read 29711 times)

Offline ltseung888

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 03:52:28 PM »
See http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1171.msg19564;topicseen#msg19564
 
I now have two oscilloscopes and can tune or hunt for resonance with confidence.
 
Much background and experimental information is in overunityresearch.com under the ltseung888 bench.
 
Thank you for the helpful information.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 03:52:28 PM »

Offline verpies

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 05:50:29 PM »
See http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1171.msg19564;topicseen#msg19564
I now have two oscilloscopes and can tune or hunt for resonance with confidence.
Much background and experimental information is in overunityresearch.com under the ltseung888 bench.
Thank you for the helpful information.

I looked at the experimental data at overunityresearch.com but could not register to reply there.

I noticed that you are multiplying the instantaneous voltage and current on the input and output side of your devices. 
I applaud you on this correct and accurate method of measuring power. If everyone was measuring power like this then there would be much less confusion.

Do you know if your oscilloscopes multiply Ch1 * Ch2 every sample by every sample before decimation and display?
...or do they multiply Ch1 * Ch2 after decimation/averaging and display?
This is an important question to answer from the standpoint of the power measurement accuracy.  Unfortunately many oscilloscopes do not multiply all of the the data that is sampled. Instead they multiply only the data that is decimated/integrated and displayed.
If your oscilloscope does not multiply every sample then it is useless for measuring high frequency power.

Also, I noticed that in that thread at overunityresearch.com you used the phrase "Power RMS".
If you are calculating a Root-Mean-Square of a power waveform (after instantaneous multiplication * voltage) then this RMS is a wrong function to use at that stage. 
You should calculate the regular arithmetical mean (average, AVG) of the power waveform to obtain the average power (RMS is a mistake here).

RMS values are useful to obtain e.g. the equivalent RI^2 heating value of current or as arguments to multiplying RMS(current)s * RMS(voltage), if the waveforms are sinusoidal and the phase relationship between them is known.

In other words:
WRONG:
RMS(voltage_inst * current_inst) = Average Power
AVG(voltage) * AVG(current) = Average Power

CORRECT:
voltage_inst * current_inst = Instantaneous Power
RMS(voltage) * RMS(current) * cos(Phi) = Average power (but only for sine waveforms)
AVG(voltage_inst * current_inst) = Average power (for any waveforms)

Offline ltseung888

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 10:17:54 PM »
I looked at the experimental data at overunityresearch.com but could not register to reply there.

I noticed that you are multiplying the instantaneous voltage and current on the input and output side of your devices. 
I applaud you on this correct and accurate method of measuring power. If everyone was measuring power like this then there would be much less confusion.

Do you know if your oscilloscopes multiply Ch1 * Ch2 every sample by every sample before decimation and display?
...or do they multiply Ch1 * Ch2 after decimation/averaging and display?
This is an important question to answer from the standpoint of the power measurement accuracy.  Unfortunately many oscilloscopes do not multiply all of the the data that is sampled. Instead they multiply only the data that is decimated/integrated and displayed.
If your oscilloscope does not multiply every sample then it is useless for measuring high frequency power.

Also, I noticed that in that thread at overunityresearch.com you used the phrase "Power RMS".
If you are calculating a Root-Mean-Square of a power waveform (after instantaneous multiplication * voltage) then this RMS is a wrong function to use at that stage. 
You should calculate the regular arithmetical mean (average, AVG) of the power waveform to obtain the average power (RMS is a mistake here).

RMS values are useful to obtain e.g. the equivalent RI^2 heating value of current or as arguments to multiplying RMS(current)s * RMS(voltage), if the waveforms are sinusoidal and the phase relationship between them is known.

In other words:
WRONG:
RMS(voltage_inst * current_inst) = Average Power
AVG(voltage) * AVG(current) = Average Power

CORRECT:
voltage_inst * current_inst = Instantaneous Power
RMS(voltage) * RMS(current) * cos(Phi) = Average power (but only for sine waveforms)
AVG(voltage_inst * current_inst) = Average power (for any waveforms)
Thank you for your excellent comments.  I shall clarify the following points.
 
1.    My Atten Oscilloscope calculates the Ch1*Ch2 values at every sample.  Thus the Instantaneous Power value at any instant is equal to the instantaneous Voltage*Instantaneous Current.
2.    The Instantaneous current is actually the instantaneous voltage across a one ohm resistor.
3.    The Atten Oscilloscope also allows me to capture the actual time interval, Ch1 and Ch2 values in a CSV file.  The CSV file can be manipulated via the Microsoft Excel Program.
4.    To get a real understanding of what is happening, I usually compare the Output waveforms with the Input (Instantaneous voltage, current and power).
5.    In many instances, the Output Power Curve resembles a Standing Wave.  Standing waves are characteristics of resonance.  In all cases of Standing Waves at Output, the area within the standing wave (energy) is much higher than the Input Area.
6.    For accurate measurement, I normally use the arithmetic mean of the Ch1*Ch2 from the CSV file.  In addition, I can calculate the average positive area and/or the average negative area of the power curve. 
7.    For a perfect Standing Wave, the positive area will be identical to the negative area.  Thus the mean power value will be zero.  This is often confusing to engineers not familiar with Pulse- resonance circuits.  Sometimes, we can treat the positive area as energy going out and the negative area as energy feeding back.
8.    You can forget about my use of pp and rms calculations.  Such calculations are for training purposes only.  Instead of spending an hour on average manipulating the CSV, I let the students do simple comparisons with pp or rms values.
9.    In some early posts, I use the term Tseung FLEET Comparison Index pp or rms.  Such values are useful for comparing different FLEET prototypes or tuning on the same prototype.  You are right is saying that such results are not meaningful outside such comparisons.  They are useful specifically for my comparison purposes.
10. When I or my students do the tuning, we use two oscilloscopes.  One displays the Input Instantaneous values and the other displays the Output Instantaneous values.  The shape and the amplitude easily tells us whether we are near resonance.
11. The tuning for a given toroid can be based on varying the holes on the breadboard, the spacing of the wires, adding capacitors, resistors, LEDs, Diodes or other electronic components.   
So far, my best prototype results have COP > 100 based on the accurate CSV file calculations.  I shall provide more such data at overunityresearch.com under the bench of ltseung888.  The plan is to train as many person as possible on the basic technique and then go to the 100 watt range with different electronic components and larger toroids.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 10:17:54 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2012, 01:05:44 PM »
That pretty much clears up my concerns about your power measurement techniques.

I understand the concept when you write "Output Power Curve resembles a Standing Wave" but this phrase somehow rings wrong, because the Power Output Curve is a synthetic wave (a result of a calculation) that does not exist as an actual wave in your circuit because it does not represent something real, such as current or charge distribution in a helical winding or a transmission line.
I think it would be more correct to write  "Output Power Curve is indicative of a Standing Wave in ...". 
I hope you don't get offended at this semantic nit picking ;)

Another subject: 
After all of your experimentation, can you elaborate on your observations about the relationship between:
1) Bulk/Lumped LC resonance.
2) Reflected wave resonance (a.k.a. standing wave)

As an example, notice that there is only one frequency at which the inductive and capacitive reactances are equal in lumped LC resonance HOWEVER there are many frequencies (harmonics) at which the reflected waves form standing waves.

Note for newbes:  See the attachment and the high school video demonstrating mechanical standing waves (caused by reflection) at different frequencies :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vdSP-580Vw

Also, see the electric standing waves in a real coil, visualized by a neon screwdriver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jxp6wrh2Pqo

Offline ltseung888

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2012, 03:41:31 PM »
That pretty much clears up my concerns about your power measurement techniques.

I understand the concept when you write "Output Power Curve resembles a Standing Wave" but this phrase somehow rings wrong, because the Power Output Curve is a synthetic wave (a result of a calculation) that does not exist as an actual wave in your circuit because it does not represent something real, such as current or charge distribution in a helical winding or a transmission line.
I think it would be more correct to write  "Output Power Curve is indicative of a Standing Wave in ...". 
I hope you don't get offended at this semantic nit picking(http://www.overunity.com/file:///C:/Users/Jen/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif)

Another subject: 
After all of your experimentation, can you elaborate on your observations about the relationship between:
1) Bulk/Lumped LC resonance.
2) Reflected wave resonance (a.k.a. standing wave)

As an example, notice that there is only one frequency at which the inductive and capacitive reactances are equal in lumped LC resonance HOWEVER there are many frequencies (harmonics) at which the reflected waves form standing waves.

 cstanding waves (caused by reflection) at different frequencies :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vdSP-580Vw

Also, see the electric standing waves in a real coil, visualized by a neon screwdriver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jxp6wrh2Pqo
Thank you once again for the excellent comments and information.
I want to share the actual experimental observations with you in this post.
Please examine the four pictures.  We shall discuss the implications in thwe coming posts.  For now, do you agree that the Output Power Curve as shown on picture 2 contains more area (energy) as compared with the Input Power Curve?
Looking forward to your comments.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2012, 03:41:31 PM »
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Offline powercat

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 09:21:02 PM »
It doesn't matter how much good advice you offer Lawrence he just carries on believing that he has OU
he's been doing it for years, his blind faith in what he does is only giving the free energy community a bad name.

I don't know if he enjoys making people angry when they discover that nothing he has will give them free energy,
but I suspect he loves it, after all he's been doing it for long enough now to know better.

at best we have a lesson in how not to do things at worst we are supporting a con man.

Offline verpies

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 12:04:06 AM »
do you agree that the Output Power Curve as shown on picture 2 contains more area (energy) as compared with the Input Power Curve?

I cannot say yet.
What is the meaning of the ~5.00V and ~500mV legend at the bootm of the traces. Does it mean 5V and 500mV per division?
I am not sure about the vertical offsets of those traces. Where is the zero on the Y axis? Can it be trusted?  Does the adjustment of the vertical position (vertical offset) of Ch1 or Ch2, change the result of the Math Ch. ?

What is the arithmetical mean of the Output Math trace?  I am unable to average it by eyeballing it and I don't feel like counting pixels ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 12:04:06 AM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2012, 12:09:39 AM »
It doesn't matter how much good advice you offer Lawrence he just carries on believing that he has OU
he's been doing it for years, his blind faith in what he does is only giving the free energy community a bad name.

I don't know if he enjoys making people angry when they discover that nothing he has will give them free energy,
but I suspect he loves it, after all he's been doing it for long enough now to know better.

at best we have a lesson in how not to do things at worst we are supporting a con man.

I am not a big believer but if I find no errors in his power measuring methodology, then I will have no choice but to accept his OU claim.
Of course any claim can be confirmed by replication or refuted with fraud, but that's not a scientific argument anymore.  More like a sociological one...

Offline verpies

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 12:44:08 AM »
And then still this is not the right way to measure input vs output energy !

He is simultaneously sampling the instantaneous current and instantaneous voltage at high frequency at the input of the DUT, multiplying the samples and averaging the results to obtain average input power (or integrating it to obtain input energy)
He is simultaneously sampling the instantaneous current and instantaneous voltage at high frequency at the output of the DUT, multiplying the samples and averaging the results to obtain average output power (or integrating it to obtain output energy)
Dividing these two averages (powers) yields In/Out Power ratio (or COP)

Am I missing something?
Are you suspecting that he is not sampling both channels simultaneously or loosing data between samples?
What would be the correct power measuring methodology according to you?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 12:44:08 AM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 02:09:06 AM »
I cannot say yet.
What is the meaning of the ~5.00V and ~500mV legend at the bootm of the traces. Does it mean 5V and 500mV per division?
I am not sure about the vertical offsets of those traces. Where is the zero on the Y axis? Can it be trusted?  Does the adjustment of the vertical position (vertical offset) of Ch1 or Ch2, change the result of the Math Ch. ?

What is the arithmetical mean of the Output Math trace?  I am unable to average it by eyeballing it and I don't feel like counting pixels(http://www.overunity.com/file:///C:/Users/Jen/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif)

The scale for Ch1 is 5.00V per division.  The scale for Ch2 is 500mV per division.  I deliberately set the Input and Output traces to the same scales including the horizontal time scale.  The zero position for the Atten Oscilloscope for Ch1 is the arrow next to the number 1.  The zero position for Ch2 is the arrow next to the number 2.  The product (Ch1*Ch2) is indicated by the symbol M (Maths function).
 
I shall provide both the raw CSV file for Input and Output.  You can work out the artithmatic means from the raw data.  I shall also provide the enhanced CSV file giving the mean value, the positive only mean value and the negative only mean value. 
 
I shall also provide the full circuit diagram both as circuit diagram drawing and from the breadboard.  The possibility of experimental error is practically zero.
 
I can also swap the oscilloscopes and the probes to further reduce possibility of equipment error.
 
In addition I can provide similar Standing Wave patterns from at least 3 other prototypes already in my possession.
 
By the way, the method of using the Instantaneous Voltage * Instantaneous Current to get the Instantaneous Power was introduced to me by the Electrical Engineering Professors at the Hong Kong Universities.  It was also confirmed by Electrical Engineers trained at MIT and UCLA.  It is an established academic technique.
 
May the Almighty guide all the researchers to the proper path.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2012, 02:53:18 AM »
I have converted the CSV files into XLS files because this forum does not allow downloading of CSV files
ADS00026.XLS is the Output and ADS00027 is the Input raw data.  You will find surprises in these two files.
 
Have fun.
 
I shall redo the experiment to absolutely confirm that the CSV (XLS) files correspond to the DMP files. 
 
*** The chance of the ADS00026 and ADS00027 corresponding to the above DMP files is very high.  The Ch1 voltage pp from the file is 7.2V (7.6 on the DMP file) and the Ch2 voltage pp from the file is 280mv (280mV on the DMP file).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 04:06:18 AM by ltseung888 »

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2012, 02:53:18 AM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2012, 11:43:39 AM »
You not missing something, your missing a lot more then that.

That's not a scientific argument.
What am I missing?

Offline verpies

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2012, 11:51:14 AM »
I have converted the CSV files into XLS files because this forum does not allow downloading of CSV files
ADS00026.XLS is the Output and ADS00027 is the Input raw data.  You will find surprises in these two files.
Have fun.
I shall redo the experiment to absolutely confirm that the CSV (XLS) files correspond to the DMP files. 
*** The chance of the ADS00026 and ADS00027 corresponding to the above DMP files is very high.  The Ch1 voltage pp from the file is 7.2V (7.6 on the DMP file) and the Ch2 voltage pp from the file is 280mv (280mV on the DMP file).

Looks like you have vertical resolution problems.

Look at the attached graph made from the ADS00027.XLS file. The Ch1 is quantized to 2bits ( less than 4 levels - 3 actually). Such large quantization error makes your captured data unsuitable for further calculations.
The vertical resolution of other channels is only a little better:
ADS00026 Ch1: 38 levels (59% of 6 bit resolution)
ADS00026 Ch2: 17 levels (53% of 5 bit resolution)
ADS00027 Ch1:   3 levels (75% of 2 bit resolution)
ADS00027 Ch2: 13 levels (81% of 4 bit resolution)
 
In ADS00026 you should increase the analog amplification (sensitivity) on Ch1 so it takes the full advantage of your scope's maximum vertical resolution (e.g. all 8-bits, 256 levels).
In fact all the channels should be amplified as much as possible but without incurring clipping by the A/D converter (sampler).  Some people call it "normalization to the A/D limit"...

P.S.
Digitizing at 500Ms/s is fine as long as the sampling of the two channels is simultaneous (not interleaved!)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 12:57:34 PM by verpies »

Offline ltseung888

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 04:20:37 PM »
Looks like you have vertical resolution problems.

Look at the attached graph made from the ADS00027.XLS file. The Ch1 is quantized to 2bits ( less than 4 levels - 3 actually). Such large quantization error makes your captured data unsuitable for further calculations.
The vertical resolution of other channels is only a little better:
ADS00026 Ch1: 38 levels (59% of 6 bit resolution)
ADS00026 Ch2: 17 levels (53% of 5 bit resolution)
ADS00027 Ch1:   3 levels (75% of 2 bit resolution)
ADS00027 Ch2: 13 levels (81% of 4 bit resolution)
 
In ADS00026 you should increase the analog amplification (sensitivity) on Ch1 so it takes the full advantage of your scope's maximum vertical resolution (e.g. all 8-bits, 256 levels).
In fact all the channels should be amplified as much as possible but without incurring clipping by the A/D converter (sampler).  Some people call it "normalization to the A/D limit"...

P.S.
Digitizing at 500Ms/s is fine as long as the sampling of the two channels is simultaneous (not interleaved!)
The scales were set for eyeball comparison purposes.  I shall repeat the experiment to try to get the largest sensitivity.  Prof. Steve Jones uses the better oscilloscope at his BYU University for accurate quantitative measurements.
I shall try to test the limit of the Atten Oscilloscope in the coming experiments.  I do believe the Atten Oscilloscope sample the two channels simultaneously and have common ground.
Thanks for the useful scientific comments.  God Bless.

Offline verpies

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Re: standing wave coil frequency
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 10:05:13 PM »
Prof. Steve Jones uses the better oscilloscope at his BYU University for accurate quantitative measurements.

Even the best digital scope will capture inaccurate data if it's using only 2bits of its A/D converter ;)

Your scopes have 8 bits of vertical resolution, so they are theoretically capable of capturing up to 256 levels of voltage.
It's just a matter of setting the vertical sensitivity (analog amplification)  appropriately to the signal amplitude.

 

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