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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: nilrehob on March 20, 2011, 12:35:29 PM

Title: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: nilrehob on March 20, 2011, 12:35:29 PM
I'm trying to replicate the effect in Thane Heins BiTT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcAYhM0LX9A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcAYhM0LX9A)

I have three three toroids: A,B and C.
Three windings (the original windings are still there but unused) around AB, BC and around CA, each is 300 turns.
(i guess the original primary winding is probably 400 turns)

http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/5672/20110318309.jpg

I put 226V (measured) 50Hz on AB.
The flux splits into core A and B.
I put one 15W 220V bulb on BC and one on CA.
I get 106V on winding BC (but expected 113V) (didn't check CA)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5822/threecore.png

PF on input in AB is sadly still 1.0 as in the normal case
I was hoping for PF 0.0 on input as in the BiTT.

Any suggestion on what to change or do in order to get PF 0.0?

/Hob

PS: unable to insert the images directly into the text, sorry
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: nilrehob on March 20, 2011, 01:42:42 PM
BTW, if i disconnect one of the lamps, the other one would go out.

/Hob
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: wattsup on March 20, 2011, 02:56:06 PM
@nilrehob

Interesting build I must say, but I think you realize there are many things wrong with what you have built.

If using toroidal cores, first the way you have your coils wound over three standard transformer coils, those transformers having many winds between the cores will not permit any real flux movement.

If you were to use three toroidal cores to even start to try and simulate the Thane Bi-Toroidals you would require the following.
1) One toroid core of let's say 6" OD and 5" ID.
2) Then two toroid cores of 2.5" OD and 1.5" ID.

The two smaller toroids would fit side-by-side inside the ID of the larger toroid.

Of course the OD/ID could vary but this is just to explain when using toroids, the closest way to simulate the effect although even then, with toroids the mutual contact of core to core will be much more limited then in the true Thane device where each section shares a good length of mutual exchange where the core are wound.

But trying to use those transformer coils as toroidal cores you have from the outside as you have it will simply create many points of cancellation and the fact that those toroids are already insulated with coiling, insulation, etc., this would not be a good way to go use the toroidal core as a Thane device.

Of course the way you made the build there are many ways to play around with them, even putting the three wound coils in series or parallel as the feed and then putting all the existing primaries in series to load and then the same thing with all the secondaries. This would be more interesting to see what happens.

wattsup

PS: I have added your two images below,
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: nilrehob on March 20, 2011, 04:46:37 PM
Thanks for the reply :)

I have been thinking about the sizing of the toroids
the reason for your proposal i think is because you would want the "back-flux" from the two secondary windings not to enter the two primary cores but to choose the easiest path which would be the secondary core

i figure the same effect might appear if i wound lots of more turns for the primary so the two primary cores would get saturated?

/Hob
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 20, 2011, 07:16:40 PM
Hey Hob

A friend of mine sent me these pdf's that you may find interesting.
I have not tried anything with these ideas yet, but you seem to have the toroids to work with.  ;]

Let me know what you think.

Mags
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: penno64 on March 20, 2011, 08:24:01 PM
@Nil,

If you rewatch the video, you may notice that Thane adjusts the input voltage somewhat, to strike where PF is.

A Variac may prove useful.

Penno
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 20, 2011, 10:15:46 PM
By the way, the 2 pdfs go hand in hand and compliment each other. ;]


mags
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 21, 2011, 06:47:57 AM
Hey Hob

Was thinking.  the windings that are on the cores that look pre wound, I fully suspect they are all open and not being used, BUT, there may be a posibility that just he mass of copper they are composed of may interfere with what you are looking for.
If you read the first pdf, it describes how flux is manifested into the cores, and after reading it and understanding it, I believe it.  The copper of the unused windings just may be in the way, maybe slowing things down.  Like how a magnet will fall slowly on a plate of copper or aluminum on a slant. There is drag. I know that the windings are not the same as a copper plate, but there may be some interference.

Just a thought.  Would be interesting if it did make a difference. ;]

Hope you find the pdfs interesting. I was very impressed.

Mags
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 21, 2011, 09:26:01 AM
Hey Hob

Here is a link to peswiki of a guy that is on your same path, and his design and explanation should help you a great deal. ;]
http://pesn.com/2011/03/20/9501793_Two_Toroid_Over-Unity_Gabriel_Device_--_Part_1/


Mags
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: nilrehob on March 21, 2011, 01:48:02 PM
Hey Hob

A friend of mine sent me these pdf's that you may find interesting.
I have not tried anything with these ideas yet, but you seem to have the toroids to work with.  ;]

Let me know what you think.

Mags

Thanks, yes i have read those, good reads.

/Hob
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: nilrehob on March 21, 2011, 01:49:37 PM
Hey Hob

Here is a link to peswiki of a guy that is on your same path, and his design and explanation should help you a great deal. ;]
http://pesn.com/2011/03/20/9501793_Two_Toroid_Over-Unity_Gabriel_Device_--_Part_1/


Mags

Really interesting.

/Hob
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: nilrehob on March 21, 2011, 01:52:01 PM
@Nil,

If you rewatch the video, you may notice that Thane adjusts the input voltage somewhat, to strike where PF is.

A Variac may prove useful.

Penno

Yes I have a variac,
there are quite a few variations on how to hook everything up,
i will try to cover most of them, eventually

/Hob
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: nilrehob on March 21, 2011, 01:54:14 PM
Hey Hob

Was thinking.  the windings that are on the cores that look pre wound, I fully suspect they are all open and not being used, BUT, there may be a posibility that just he mass of copper they are composed of may interfere with what you are looking for.
If you read the first pdf, it describes how flux is manifested into the cores, and after reading it and understanding it, I believe it.  The copper of the unused windings just may be in the way, maybe slowing things down.  Like how a magnet will fall slowly on a plate of copper or aluminum on a slant. There is drag. I know that the windings are not the same as a copper plate, but there may be some interference.

Just a thought.  Would be interesting if it did make a difference. ;]

Hope you find the pdfs interesting. I was very impressed.

Mags

Yes, and the spacing between my windings and the core even if the original windings don't interfere,
i have to read about space-gaps in transformers.

/Hob
Title: Re: Tri-Toroidal-Transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on May 22, 2013, 10:36:39 AM
Try shorting of one output secondary, or put them in parallel/serial configration.
 
There are unused windings in the toroid, try shorting the ones that have primary coil around it. Idea is that it would bring the 2 cores into saturation, then maybe flux generated by the secondary coils would not affect so much to primary.
 
What is the idle power or your trafo ? It should be as low as possible, otherwise power is wasted. In my opinion you should get OU with this one, low idle power is important. Add turns in your primary until idle power drops atleast below 100 ma, less is better. If you can play with frequency then other option is to increase it until idle power is low enough.