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## Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: gauschor on March 14, 2011, 03:24:27 AM

Title: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: gauschor on March 14, 2011, 03:24:27 AM
I make a new attempt in finding a way to convert electrostatic energy into usable energy. I think I have omitted an important detail. I don't know if it sounds ridiculous or not but the reason for that is that I got 2 electric shocks during my experiments a year ago. Both were different to the standard electroshocks gained from the Wimshurst device, in a sense that I felt that there was more power / amperage within them. I will explain in short:

The picture below explains the basic construction: as usual the collectors of the Wimshurst produce small currents within the (Tesla) coil. On the smaller coil I get a smaller voltage (I don't know exactly how much, I am only guessing a potential of ~300-500 Volts... but the gauge cannot read it correctly). What is clear is that there is almost no amperage, and you will feel nothing but a small piercing pain if you directly touch the ends of the small coil.

However I experienced that when I put in a Cap of 200V 0.1ÂµV (really cheap ones) and then touch the contact points (producing a "bridge") I get a huge electric shock. This shock was in a strength much more powerful than any electrostatic shocks I ever received (which were quite a lot, including ones from Leyden Jars). It was a shock like you get from a cattle fence - which has more amperage than your usual Wimshurst device.
The second experience was an electric shock I got from a simple 8V to 230V transformer from which the battery was already removed! The strength was nearly the same as the one I got from the Cap mentioned above. After opening the closed transformer I have seen that an exact same 200V 0.1ÂµV Cap was built into the transformer to "smooth" the current. Obviously I also got the electric shock solely from the power in the cap.

Now my calculation was as follows:
The Cap has 200V and 0.1ÂµF which is 200*0.1/1000000=0.00002 C. I was assuming that the electric shock had a duration of 1 millisecond therefore the amperage was 0.00002/(1/1000)=0.02A = 20mA. So I had received an electric shock of 200V with an amperage of 20mA.

Today I found out that this small amperage can already be dangerous for you, so please be careful when experimenting with these small "toy"-caps.

The point however is: the impulse of 200V@20mA is strong enough to power another transformer: if the 200V of the cap is reached (which I assume goes very fast) the cap must be discharged quickly and send an impulse to the second transformer coil. It should be something like a sawtooth behavior. The output from the 2nd transformer shall be targeted at about 20V@200mA - or something like that. From this transformer a possible accumulator or a 1 Farad Capacitor with appropriate voltage might be charged.

Btw. I forgot to add you might also need to switch in some rectifiers if necessary (maybe after the Tesla coil and before the 200V cap, and another rectifier after the second transformer and before the accumulator).
Also I am not sure if the Teslacoil is really needed, maybe the Wimshurst can charge the 200V cap faster without it and only with the help of a rectifiers. The 200V cap must be charged and discharged at least 50 timesper second. Also I don't think that the spark gap is the best solution to send impulses to the second transformer, because the impulse will lose some of its power. Maybe some people know an electric circuit to create "Sawtooth oscillation" behavior. Since it is only a 200V capacitor the gap of the spark opening shall be less than 1mm, (if using a spark gap).

My Wimshurst device is currently broken because the discs were too wobbly, therefore construction and verifying the experiment will take some time. I just wanted to through in my thoughts in case others want to throw in some opinions or critics.

Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: gauschor on March 24, 2011, 01:07:05 PM
Just updating. The wimshurst was built quickly, unfortunately the following experiments didn't show any sign of usable power. I combined the output to a JouleThief but the amperage was too low or the spikes too short to get the JT run (even when using transformers, rectifiers, caps).

I guess one can only understand the Testatika if one understands the "Testatika Principle Experiment" first. I eventually realized it makes no sense to start with any other experiments. Unfortunately this "Principle experiment" couldn't be reproduced either by various experimentors. Obviously even there Baumann used his 2 "magical" grid caps, where we don't know what is inside. Any sketches of what could be within these caps from 3rd parties such as Albert Hauser or Paul Potter are only guesses and speculation. This makes it basically useless  :(

Isn't it nice how mankind isn't ready for energy generators like this (the words from the Methernita...) when Atomic Power Plants explode? I hope they feel good about hiding their invention...
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: Low-Q on March 24, 2011, 04:59:54 PM
Too bad that nature (as we know it) wants to do nothing if it isn't told to do something (energy input). I wonder when mankind are able to replicate small "big bangs" - the reason why energy was created in the first place.
I guess we can agree one thing: Energy can be created (because we do have energy from somewhere), and probably it can be destroied also (consumed by dark energy...). We just don't know how this happens.

Vidar
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: heretic on January 16, 2014, 12:26:13 AM
A few thoughts on the Testatika machine. Obviously it is an updated and modified wimshurst generator. Please correct me if I'm wrong but, the Leyden jars are charge collectors, one positive and one negative. I don't think that the  Joule thief is really necessary. I think that if you send the charge from the jars through a series of voltage doublers and/or step up transformers and or high voltage caps before it's pumped into the first tesla coil which should transmit the charge to a second tesla coil which is modified and tuned to act as a step down transformer you should be able to get usable power. A feedback loop is used to power the small electric motor that spins the wheel. The wheel can also be spun with permanent magnets and/or electromagnets. Unfortunately I don't have the time or resources necessary to test this theory, but I think that this or something similar to it is what they did to the wimshurst generator. I think that a lot of people spend a lot of time trying to be smart thinking that it all has to be complicated. And couldn't you use caps to collect the charges instead of Leyden jars? Perhaps opamps and/or tank circuits are in use here as well. Maybe I'm overthinking it as well because I work on the KISS principle, but it seems to me that this is something to ponder.
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: heretic on January 16, 2014, 06:03:43 AM
If the drawing you posted is the circuit you're working with, which is supposed to be a wimshurst generator, it's never going to get much more than what you already have for the following reasons. If you look at a wimshurst, you'll notice that there are 2 Leyden jars, 1 to collect the negative charge, 1 to collect the positive charge. Are we good so far? These jars act like capacitors, collecting energy to saturation and discharge. This high voltage charge is your starting point. By high voltage we mean kilovolt range before it can be stepped down into something usable. According to your drawing, you are putting half of the miniscule discharge off the wheel into a coil? and then running it through a step down transformer. This is where you are in error. You need to take the charge from both positive and negative sides of the wheel to get usable power. It looks to me like you are getting maybe 2kv off the coil and running it through a stepdown transformer, and you'll never get much useful energy out off that setup. The Joule Thief is not necessary, and in all actuality, neither is the tesla coil. Take the charge from the jars/high voltage caps and seriously step it up into the kv range by running it through a series of voltage doublers and/ or stepup transformers before you step it down. This is what the testatika device does. If you look at that device , you'll notice the wheel and the Leyden jars. Sound familiar? Permanent magnets, electromagnets with a feedback loop for power, or a small electric motor, again with the feedback loop, is what is used to spin the wheel. All that device is, is an updated and modified ( solid state) wimshurst.
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: romerouk on January 16, 2014, 05:09:47 PM
@gauschor (http://www.overunity.com/profile/gauschor.21805/)

schematic should look like this
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: romerouk on January 16, 2014, 05:15:12 PM
...or like this
the power obtained is not insignificant as most believe
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: wings on January 17, 2014, 06:45:13 AM
...or like this
the power obtained is not insignificant as most believe
http://www.overunity.com/7669/method-for-converting-hv-static-into-usable-low-voltage-power/msg187851/#msg187851 (http://www.overunity.com/7669/method-for-converting-hv-static-into-usable-low-voltage-power/msg187851/#msg187851)
Captrafo
http://www.overunity.com/7669/method-for-converting-hv-static-into-usable-low-voltage-power/msg194404/#msg194404 (http://www.overunity.com/7669/method-for-converting-hv-static-into-usable-low-voltage-power/msg194404/#msg194404)

from
http://www.hcrs.at/THESTA.HTM (http://www.hcrs.at/)

with spikes this
http://www.overunity.com/7669/method-for-converting-hv-static-into-usable-low-voltage-power/msg187851/#msg187851 (http://www.overunity.com/7669/method-for-converting-hv-static-into-usable-low-voltage-power/msg187851/#msg187851)
similar to the big can
http://www.linux-host.org/energy/fullcircit.gif (http://www.linux-host.org/energy/fullcircit.gif)

Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: gauschor on January 17, 2014, 05:45:47 PM
@heretic: you are right in some aspects. The problem however is, that the only way to transform down a high potential is to use a spark gap. You can't step down down a potential which is just standing still. An electromagnet only works with pulses. Where do you get pulses if not by a spark gap? On discharge of 2 different potentials the impulse can be fed to a transformer. However once discharged it takes too long to recharge the Leyden Jars again. On the other hand if the spark gap is too small then the impulse is too weak to power something substantial.

My latest thoughts (http://www.overunity.com/8545/stepping-down-a-wimshurst/60/#.UtlV-VI1jIU) brought me to that, that the Testatika does not directly use the electrostatic potential for stepping down, but use it capacitor-like. This would also explain the touchless sensors from the Testatika. It would also support the theory that their wheel is indeed driven by an electromotor and not only by electrostatic push/pull principle. And it would support the theory that it needs not much additional electrostatics to sustain itself (as the segments never discharge and only slightly lose their charge over time).

So more like that picture below... (NOTE: the U-shaped core is not a permanent magnet, just a U-shaped ferrite core or similar for electromagnetic usage).
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: gauschor on January 18, 2014, 11:56:14 AM
I have added some more thought experiments.
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: gauschor on January 19, 2014, 10:35:47 AM
So I simplified the setup. But the more I think about it (without yet verifying it in practise) I feel something is wrong:

1) I think the magnetising effect on the ferrite core will be too weak. Maybe with a giant Leyden Jar better, but more dangerous.
2) The positively charged segments  on the wheel can only attract a limited number of electrons (this is an assumption which could be wrong). So on the one hand we have a bucket full of excess electrons, and on the other hand we have just a small wheel segment.
3) The way the Leyden Jar is connected to the kidney might interfere with the charge separation process on the Toepler.

EDIT: Funny ...now that I look at this setup I see I don't use any of the collector brushes (the horizontal black ones in the wheel) at all.
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: lota on January 19, 2014, 11:01:19 AM
Hello,
my english is bad. Here is an attempt at a Wimshurstmaschine. Not from me.
http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/SparkGapExp/SparkGapExp.htm

greeting
Lota
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: PiCéd on January 19, 2014, 01:40:29 PM
I wonder if the result would not be better with copper on one side and aluminum on the other, with the same separation distance for the same capacity.
I there is little attempt to constantly press a kind of capacitor with the carbon paper coated on one side with aluminum and on the other side with a cloth and aluminum, the result is that the side always be positive is the side where there are carbon.
With an aluminum capacitor / aluminum it is impossible to have the same result.
My video, sorry it is only in french and it is not terrible:
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: mscoffman on January 19, 2014, 04:08:59 PM

Rather then using a spark gap to create RF radio frequency I believe the Testatica machine
uses a radio frequency power oscillator using the single, purpose built, vacuum tube. The wimshurst
machine can supply a high voltage for the vacuum tube plate supply. This is a much more
efficient method of producing RF radio frequency AC signal than a spark gap. This allows very simple
light air core transformers to be used to step down the AC RF power signal.

The other method the Testatica uses to step down voltage is the "inverse voltage multiplier" this
a mechanical multiplexor switch that stacks constant capacitive sections into series, applies high
voltage DC, splits the capacitive sections into parallel then outputs the lower DC voltage at higher
current.

The reason the testaica machine is built from carbon like a MOV metal oxide varisistor is that
it is running "full out" only during certain conditions, not at all times. This requires self regulation
They eventually wanted to synthesize 220VAC at 50HZdirectly. Taps from the RF transformers combined
with switch based multiplexor can synthesize the sinewave. Meanwhile the main wheel rotates
at 50Hz timing rate. Those Antenna keys allow multiple machine to operate nearby each other without
synchronization and power sharing.

The key is that the overunity energy comes from the basic wimshurst machine itself not from side effects
of hand built components. This will be shown more directly in the future by operation wimshurst machine
using higher power electrostatic mechanical motors. I think this capacitive coupling to the wimshurst
energy-pickoff is a key to getting output voltages down into semiconductor range and to eliminate
brush wear. Be aware that capacitive coupling will require resistive equalization to occur on the wheel and the
inefficiency implied by this.

A better way may be to indeed operate the Wimshurst machine full-out with a high voltage static mechanical
drive then let secondary electronics accept all extra energy produced.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: gauschor on January 19, 2014, 04:25:12 PM

So he has a spark gap, where its electrodes are connected to the Leyden Jars.  The material of the electrodes are "Thoriated Tungsten" (which however could contain 2% Thorium, being radioactive) on the one side and "Carbon/Graphite" on the other side. Interesting is also that PiCéd used carbon in his youtube experiment. I assume the material chosen is based on the triboelectrical row.

The best results were achieved with 90 turns on the primary coil (1.3mm diameter) and 19 turns on the secondary coil (1.3mm diameter). Interesting is that both wires have the same diameter. Generally one would think the first wire shall have a smaller diameter (more windings) and the second a larger diameter (less windings). However this setup with more windings on the primary (e.g. 333 turns, 0.3mm diameter) and secondary coil (e.g. 30 turns, 1.3mm diameter) turned out to be less efficient.

This is something I experienced similarly. That I could use wires of the same thickness (preferable more than 1mm in diameter) for both coils and the induction was at least as good - if not better - than when using different diameters based on the common calculations for electromagnetic transformers.

The best result he also achieved with 2 spark gaps in series. 3 spark gaps seem to destroy the efficiency again.

The overall results are still kinda disappointing, as it takes 15 seconds to charge the cap to 29 Volts or so. But the performance with the wires should be remembered. It always reminds me of the anecdotes about the Testatika where someone showed a visitor a thick, fat wire which was supposed to be in one of the tubes pots (assuming it was the primary coil or so).
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: gauschor on January 20, 2014, 12:02:57 AM
Rather then using a spark gap to create RF radio frequency I believe the Testatica machine
uses a radio frequency power oscillator using the single, purpose built, vacuum tube. The wimshurst machine can supply a high voltage for the vacuum tube plate supply. This is a much more
efficient method of producing RF radio frequency AC signal than a spark gap. This allows very simple
light air core transformers to be used to step down the AC RF power signal.

The other method the Testatica uses to step down voltage is the "inverse voltage multiplier" this
a mechanical multiplexor switch that stacks constant capacitive sections into series, applies high
voltage DC, splits the capacitive sections into parallel then outputs the lower DC voltage at higher
current.

The reason the testaica machine is built from carbon like a MOV metal oxide varisistor is that
it is running "full out" only during certain conditions, not at all times. This requires self regulation
They eventually wanted to synthesize 220VAC at 50HZdirectly. Taps from the RF transformers combined
with switch based multiplexor can synthesize the sinewave. Meanwhile the main wheel rotates
at 50Hz timing rate. Those Antenna keys allow multiple machine to operate nearby each other without
synchronization and power sharing.

The key is that the overunity energy comes from the basic wimshurst machine itself not from side effects
of hand built components. This will be shown more directly in the future by operation wimshurst machine
using higher power electrostatic mechanical motors. I think this capacitive coupling to the wimshurst
energy-pickoff is a key to getting output voltages down into semiconductor range and to eliminate
brush wear. Be aware that capacitive coupling will require resistive equalization to occur on the wheel and the
inefficiency implied by this.

A better way may be to indeed operate the Wimshurst machine full-out with a high voltage static mechanical
drive then let secondary electronics accept all extra energy produced.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Thanks a lot, this is very useful information. I guess no way leads around to investigate these matters (keywords marked in bold) more indepth (before continuing theorizing, while at the same time feeling that my previous concepts hit a dead end).
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: gauschor on January 22, 2014, 12:00:11 PM
Thinking again about the current multiplier, how should this be switched from in series to parallel?

If switched mechanically it would certainly introduce a lot of new problems. If switched electronically by microcontrollers (I have no experience with them) it reminds me that the Testatika never used any of these sophisticated components.

Also I am stuck with the vaccum tubes or radio tubes, which are only supposed to work only by a heated cathode. Where do I produce sufficient heat to do that? I don't know, it sounds plausible but then it just doesn't fit into the picture we have from the Testatikas. Yes they have some sort of "tube", but if the tube was hot, then the visitors or Marinov would have mentioned it.
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: gauschor on January 26, 2014, 08:55:02 PM
Today I had a new flash of inspiration:

1) Remember the Van-de-Graaff generator.
2) Remember its giant sphere collecting electrons until it reaches millions of volts.
3) The sphere DOES NOT have an opposing polarity (like a capacitor), so the charge is NOT BOUND and can move freely.
4) Now imagine the large pots of the Testatika were just spheres like these.
5) The rotating segments pull this giant charge into the antenna which is placed over the wheel

The alternating segments or empty areas in between produce a pull and push motion. An induction effect that is finally large enough to produce real current on a coil with a ferrite core (somewhere in between on the way to the pots).

Could this be the key? Is this the reason why the pots look so very thoroughly isolated? Because there are millions of volts in it?
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: TinselKoala on January 26, 2014, 09:19:08 PM
Well, your description of the VDG isn't quite right, I think. It is a _charge separator_ and the bottom terminal takes on the opposite charge of the top terminal. VDGs can be either polarity depending on the roller/belt materials and which material is on the upper or lower rollers. Some VDGs don't really use a bottom capacity, they are connected to the Earth, which is a great source/sink for charge. But a good VDG will have its base smooth and symmetrical like its top, and so it will act as a capacitor "plate" with respect to the other "plate" of the top sphere. Sometimes a VDG will spark down the belt, making a spark between the top and bottom capacities via the shortest route.

I don't think there are millions of volts anywhere in a Testatika. I've heard, from one who has done it, that people have actually held the smallest one in hand while it was operating.
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: Khwartz on October 20, 2015, 01:17:16 PM
Just updating. The wimshurst was built quickly, unfortunately the following experiments didn't show any sign of usable power. I combined the output to a JouleThief but the amperage was too low or the spikes too short to get the JT run (even when using transformers, rectifiers, caps).

I guess one can only understand the Testatika if one understands the "Testatika Principle Experiment" first. I eventually realized it makes no sense to start with any other experiments. Unfortunately this "Principle experiment" couldn't be reproduced either by various experimentors. Obviously even there Baumann used his 2 "magical" grid caps, where we don't know what is inside. Any sketches of what could be within these caps from 3rd parties such as Albert Hauser or Paul Potter are only guesses and speculation. This makes it basically useless  :(

Isn't it nice how mankind isn't ready for energy generators like this (the words from the Methernita...) when Atomic Power Plants explode? I hope they feel good about hiding their invention...
Wow! What a Nice Honest and Heartly Constructive statement you've made gauschor, I would be Glad that anyone here or there, has the Same Level Of Integrity, Good Sense and Care! :D (Y)

Regards, Didier.
Title: Re: New attempt for Thestatika...
Post by: Khwartz on October 20, 2015, 01:19:17 PM
Too bad that nature (as we know it) wants to do nothing if it isn't told to do something (energy input). I wonder when mankind are able to replicate small "big bangs" - the reason why energy was created in the first place.
I guess we can agree one thing: Energy can be created (because we do have energy from somewhere), and probably it can be destroied also (consumed by dark energy...). We just don't know how this happens.

Vidar
(Y)