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New Battery systems => Other new battery systems => Topic started by: hartiberlin on March 07, 2011, 01:46:25 AM

Title: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: hartiberlin on March 07, 2011, 01:46:25 AM
Hi All,
IBpointless has made a battery from just a pencil and paper and water.
See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEnTTUvYWaQ

I have tried also to make a battery without metal electrodes.

Try to use one graphite rod or plate or pencil as the one electrode
and as the other electrode mix TiO2 with graphite powder and water and put it onto a microscope glas plate as a thin surface layer and heat this with a candle and its carbon black output, so it gets dry.
This will produce about 0.2 to 0.3 volts per cell. So the Titandioxid helps !

Watch out, that the glas does not shatter from the heat, you can also do
it without the glas, but I did it this way.

These put not out much current, but if you stack them up in series , you can at least get
a good voltage, if you put 50 or 100 in series.
This then should be enough to run a Joule Thief and run a few LEDs.
The good thing is, that it does not consume anything, just the water and some air...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 07, 2011, 03:17:16 AM
Hi All,
IBpointless has made a battery from just a pencil and paper and water.
See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEnTTUvYWaQ

I have tried also to make a battery without metal electrodes.

Try to use one graphite rod or plate or pencil as the one electrode
and as the other electrode mix TiO2 with graphite powder and water and put it onto a microscope glas plate as a thin surface layer and heat this with a candle and its carbon black output, so it gets dry.
This will produce about 0.2 to 0.3 volts per cell. So the Titandioxid helps !

Watch out, that the glas does not shatter from the heat, you can also do
it without the glas, but I did it this way.

These put not out much current, but if you stack them up in series , you can at least get
a good voltage, if you put 50 or 100 in series.
This then should be enough to run a Joule Thief and run a few LEDs.
The good thing is, that it does not consume anything, just the water and some air...

Regards, Stefan.


Yes these cells are really amazing. Since graphite is not a metal it can't rust like the water batteries that used dissimilar metals. I've made great progress with these types of cells. My latest cells don't corrode even when i use a metal such as aluminum. I leave the cells shorted out all the time and as long as you have water they produce voltage.

I've come a long way now with them, I've got cells now that don't consume the graphite or aluminum. The water doesn't evaporate anymore and I've been able to remove the air and the cells continue to work. The design is simple, Two plates placed in distilled water. You can use tap water but I suggest only using graphite plates instead any other metal due the minerals in the tap water.

The question that i can't figure out is why does this produce a voltage? If you search around the internet you'll find that the same metals don't produce a galvanic reaction and thus no voltage, but you do get a voltage from same metals in water.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 07, 2011, 04:01:11 AM

Yes these cells are really amazing. Since graphite is not a metal it can't rust like the water batteries that used dissimilar metals. I've made great progress with these types of cells. My latest cells don't corrode even when i use a metal such as aluminum. I leave the cells shorted out all the time and as long as you have water they produce voltage.

I've come a long way now with them, I've got cells now that don't consume the graphite or aluminum. The water doesn't evaporate anymore and I've been able to remove the air and the cells continue to work. The design is simple, Two plates placed in distilled water. You can use tap water but I suggest only using graphite plates instead any other metal due the minerals in the tap water.

The question that i can't figure out is why does this produce a voltage? If you search around the internet you'll find that the same metals don't produce a galvanic reaction and thus no voltage, but you do get a voltage from same metals in water.

Very nice work.  You can get voltage from the same metals when placed in the ground as we discovered on the earth battery topic.  I cut a copper tube into 2 sections so I knew it was the same composition and placed them in the ground and got both volts and mA's out of them.  With your set-up, I would have guessed that it was the minerals in the water but, if using distilled water, I have no idea where this is coming from.

I hope more folks explore this.  I look forward to seeing more of your work.

Bill
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 07, 2011, 04:20:52 AM
Very nice work.  You can get voltage from the same metals when placed in the ground as we discovered on the earth battery topic.  I cut a copper tube into 2 sections so I knew it was the same composition and placed them in the ground and got both volts and mA's out of them.  With your set-up, I would have guessed that it was the minerals in the water but, if using distilled water, I have no idea where this is coming from.

I hope more folks explore this.  I look forward to seeing more of your work.

Bill

Thanks, I do remember reading that in the earth battery form. John Bedini has a form on his earth cells and i made mention to him to use only aluminum instead of two dissimilar metals. John Bedini says he's getting power too from his type earth cells/crystal battery using the same metal with distilled water.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 07, 2011, 07:29:33 PM
I've got my new design for smaller cells working just as good as the bigger one. I find that when making any same metal cells that you must short them out for at least a day, it seems that shorting them is like charging them. I'll be posting a new YouTube video soon showing and talking about the newer smaller cells.

I really can't wait to start having these cells lighting LED's but I find it most important to perfect the cells first before getting ahead of myself with powering anything. Everything is different with these cells, shorting them out is like charging them and letting them sit not hooked to anything is like draining them of their charge.


I do have some golden rule that must be follow if you wan't to make the cells that will last for a long time. These rules can change when further improvements occur.

-You must use the same metals or only graphite, mixing metals gives a galvanic reaction and that will destroy the plates.
- The plates must be flat and solid, no dings or dents or even holes.
- Distilled water works best because it lacks the minerals that could destroy the plates, graphite does hold nice to the tap water.
- The cell must be sealed and filled completely to the top with distilled water. Being sealed doesn't allow the water evaporate or allow air to come in.
- they must be shorted out in order for them to get a good charge. 
- Don't hook them to a battery that has a higher charge on it, doing this might oxide one of the plates and hurt the pure results you're going after.

Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: hartiberlin on March 07, 2011, 11:38:18 PM
Great find !
But how does it generate any voltage, if there only 2 equal metals and water ?
And how much voltage ?
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 08, 2011, 01:04:04 AM
Great find !
But how does it generate any voltage, if there only 2 equal metals and water ?
And how much voltage ?

I don't know how it gets voltage. It could be getting the same voltage that a capacitor gets when it's been shorted out for days and for some reason bounces back with voltage. Or could be that there's electricity in water, water is diamagnetic and can be used as a dielectric; electret's use dielectrics and electret's like to be shorted out too. So water could be a electret? Its really a mystery right now.

As for how much voltage it can depend. I've got some cells get as low as 25mV and i got some cells that go over 200mV.

I will be posting a video soon of one of my 200mV cell.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 08, 2011, 04:55:58 AM
ibepointless2:

Question.  Have you ever tried using 2 separate containers of water?  What I mean is, instead of having the 2 electrodes in the same "bath", have you tried 2 different containers to see what happens?  (One electrode in each container) For some reason, I have a feeling that the mA's may increase using this approach. Of course, you may not get any at all.

I still have my 2 large carbon rods from my earth battery experiments and, since I am broke, I was thinking of digging them up to try some things like what you are doing.  These are very large and have a lot of surface area.  100% pure carbon.

I have told several local folks about your work over here and the response is..."Well that should not happen".  This is the type of response I always love to get, ha ha.

Bill
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 08, 2011, 03:58:50 PM
ibepointless2:

Question.  Have you ever tried using 2 separate containers of water?  What I mean is, instead of having the 2 electrodes in the same "bath", have you tried 2 different containers to see what happens?  (One electrode in each container) For some reason, I have a feeling that the mA's may increase using this approach. Of course, you may not get any at all.

I still have my 2 large carbon rods from my earth battery experiments and, since I am broke, I was thinking of digging them up to try some things like what you are doing.  These are very large and have a lot of surface area.  100% pure carbon.

I have told several local folks about your work over here and the response is..."Well that should not happen".  This is the type of response I always love to get, ha ha.

Bill


I haven't tried the two separate containers you have stated, If each plate is in a different container then how can they make a voltage? I have taken my cells and put them in series. The plates must be connected by water some how and they only way i see your idea working is if you use a salt bridge but i don't recommend salt for it will destroy the pureness of the distilled water. to increase amps I've found that if you increase the surface are of the plates will help.

You don't need money to really try this experiment. Most of the stuff you might have already. All you need is aluminum foil, a cup, and distilled water ( Walmart sells a gallon of water for a dollar. Cut out some aluminum foil strips and fill the cup up with distilled water and then short the plates out for a day and see the voltage. If you want instant results use tap water from the, but the minerals in tap will destroy the plates when the water evaporates. To stop the evaporation place plastic wrap on  top of the cup with a rubber band to seal the plastic wrap to the cup. Its really a cheap experiment and graphite is not needed, but graphite seems holds up the best. Also sorting them out is very important, its how it recharges it self.

I know what you mean about people saying this is impossible, and i love when people tell me something is impossible.  :)   
If you search around on the internet everywhere they will tell you that this impossible, besides the forms and blogs I've created about this effect. Searching for "same metal water battery", "similar metal water battery", or "water captret" will bring up my study of this. I find that most people say this impossible or they just don't care. I find it great that I'm doing the impossible and even had cells that produce more power over time here's a video of it here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi2KOr26WZw

My latest video is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY7r3DVPzo4
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 08, 2011, 04:05:47 PM
I was sitting in class listen to my professor about radio waves and microwaves. I started to think about the microwaves that we use to cook food, and they use microwaves to vibrate the water in food so that it heats up. The microwave is giving energy to water and this might be one of the ways its getting voltage. The microwaves in the air or radio waves could be giving the cells their power. I don't think this is the true way it gets it power but only a theory. I still don't know why the cells work but they do.

Another idea i had was that water is a electret. Water evaporates in the air and is exposed to high voltage lighting and then falls and thus you have water as electret. My cells and electret like being shorted out and water is a dielectric so that one of the conclusion i also drawn but again this is also a theory.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 11, 2011, 04:30:55 PM
I'm still making progress with these cells. I and many others have thought that I was getting electricity from the potential that exist between the two different size plates. I've done experiments with plates that are exactly the same and i still get voltage from the cells. I knew that i could never cut the aluminum foil plates the same size so instead i used manufactured aluminum nails. The nails are all the same and much easier to deal with when i use them in my straw cells.

So the voltage is not coming from the difference of the size of the plates. So where might it be coming from? It is either from the water or from the radiant temp of the air around it or the water temp. I have heated water up to boiling and i did get around 400mV in one cell of water, thats a around a 400% increase in voltage. As for amps they deal with the size of the plates themselves.

right now i can't confirm that these cells will last forever since water is the universal solvent. These can last for a really long time while given a load and are very friendly to the environment, its just water and aluminum. I've have one cell that has passed the 360 hour dead short test and the cell still looks new, I like to see any battery do that! I for see these cells lasting years, and when or if they do die they're highly recyclable. You can't get any more green with these same metal water battery.

I do have a blog that talks only about these same metal water batteries. found here : http://samemetalwaterbattery.blogspot.com/

Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 05:21:24 PM
These are really fascinating; thanks for sharing ib.

There may be a reason in terms of quantum electrodynamics why this would work, but if there is, I certainly don't know it!

Cheers
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2011, 10:10:37 PM
ibepointless2:

One way to rule out your microwave theory or other RF as a source of the energy would be to see if it still works in a Faraday cage.  You can make one easily or, if your experiment will fit, just use your microwave oven...not turned on of course, ha ha.

I always love stuff like because, as you have already shown, it can be scaled up.  With your discovery that heat increase voltage, these cells could be set outside in the sun inside some black box to gather heat and your output is increased for free.

A lot of possibilities here.  Very nice work indeed.  I can't wait to be able to try this.

Bill
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 13, 2011, 12:13:17 AM
ibepointless2:

One way to rule out your microwave theory or other RF as a source of the energy would be to see if it still works in a Faraday cage.  You can make one easily or, if your experiment will fit, just use your microwave oven...not turned on of course, ha ha.

I always love stuff like because, as you have already shown, it can be scaled up.  With your discovery that heat increase voltage, these cells could be set outside in the sun inside some black box to gather heat and your output is increased for free.

A lot of possibilities here.  Very nice work indeed.  I can't wait to be able to try this.

Bill


I just tested one cell in a Faraday cage (microwave oven) and it still produces power.

Yes there's a lot of possibilities here with these cells! I just wish I knew where the power was coming from.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 29, 2011, 12:49:17 AM
I'm coming to a realization that I just can't "willy-nilly" put plates in distilled water and expect it to work. Each plate which is aluminum wire act different to other plates. I find that I must match the plates up to get the best performance out of them. Even though the aluminum wire for each plate comes from the same reel of aluminum wire when they're cut the take on their own life.

Here's a video of what i'm trying to talk about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMK554Doa4Q

In the video i'm producing close to 700mV, thats as powerful as some galvanic cells! The key is to find plates that best match each other.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: conradelektro on March 29, 2011, 06:24:23 PM
@ibpointless2:

Just did a test with aluminium wire and distiled water.

My interpretation, we are seeing electronic smog.

When I connect the digital voltmeter to the cell, I get about 28 mV, and when I put the test probes of the digital voltmeter just next to the cell, I get about the same, 29 mV.

See, everywhere there are the mobile phone towers, WLANs and cordless phones. So, in a bigger town, you get about 500 mV (like ibpointless2). In a smaller place, like where my house is located, the smog is less dense, therefore 29 mV.

I see my own WLAN and cordless phones besides the rather far away mobile phone towers, TV-stations and WLANs of my neighbors. In an apartment building in a big city, you see lots of electronic smog.

I am afraid, ibpointless2, whatever experiment you do, you will see a lot of Milli Volts. Have a look, just put the probes of your digital voltmeter on your table without connecting them to anything. My guess, about 400 mV to 600 mV.

This also explains the erratic behavior, depending on where your body (a capacitance) is located in respect to the measurement.

But I will keep my cell shorted over night and will have a look tomorrow.

I just remember, when I put the probes of a digital voltmeter just up in the air in a flat in central Vienna, I got 1.6 Volt (yes, 1 point 6 Volt). I was ranting about electronic smog when I did that. I will do that again in a few days when I go and visit the flat in Vienna the next time.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 30, 2011, 01:03:31 AM
@ibpointless2:

Just did a test with aluminium wire and distiled water.

My interpretation, we are seeing electronic smog.

When I connect the digital voltmeter to the cell, I get about 28 mV, and when I put the test probes of the digital voltmeter just next to the cell, I get about the same, 29 mV.

See, everywhere there are the mobile phone towers, WLANs and cordless phones. So, in a bigger town, you get about 500 mV (like ibpointless2). In a smaller place, like where my house is located, the smog is less dense, therefore 29 mV.

I see my own WLAN and cordless phones besides the rather far away mobile phone towers, TV-stations and WLANs of my neighbors. In an apartment building in a big city, you see lots of electronic smog.

I am afraid, ibpointless2, whatever experiment you do, you will see a lot of Milli Volts. Have a look, just put the probes of your digital voltmeter on your table without connecting them to anything. My guess, about 400 mV to 600 mV.

This also explains the erratic behavior, depending on where your body (a capacitance) is located in respect to the measurement.

But I will keep my cell shorted over night and will have a look tomorrow.

I just remember, when I put the probes of a digital voltmeter just up in the air in a flat in central Vienna, I got 1.6 Volt (yes, 1 point 6 Volt). I was ranting about electronic smog when I did that. I will do that again in a few days when I go and visit the flat in Vienna the next time.

Greetings, Conrad


The high milli amp reading was due to the fine tuning I did with matching the plates up, that why some cells went as high as 600mV. A normal cell just thrown together would produce a wide variety of voltage from 10mV to 200mV. I don't understand why I get so much resistance from people when I show them these cells.

I live in the country part of town, I'm surrounded by trees and nature. I even placed one of my compact design same metal water batteries in a microwave oven (Faraday cage) and I still got voltage. See picture below. And I don't get around 400 to 600mV when I leave my probes laying around, look at the picture below and notice that the RED probe is not connected to anything and the voltage is around 1mV (the cell is shorted out so that why the RED probe is not connected to anything). As I see it the voltage is coming from the fact that aluminum plates in distilled water produce a voltage.

The images are below
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2011, 01:08:41 AM
ibpointless2:

Nice job on the Faraday cage tests.  That should put that one to rest in my opinion.  I am enjoying your work over here and I look forward to see what happens next.  If I were not so broke at the moment, I would be trying this myself.

Bill
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: e2matrix on March 30, 2011, 05:12:03 AM
ib are you using your meter on AC or DC?  Sorry to ask as I assume DC but I can't quite make it out on your meter pic.  I'm curious what sort of reading you get on AC if you are normally using DC.  I forget if you have a scope but if so have you put the output onto a scope yet?  I'm just thinking of things that might give some clues as to where the voltage is coming from.  On a DC meter I can get about 0.12 volts just by grabbing the leads.  If I set them down it reads 0.000 with an occasional blip to 0.002 volts.  On AC I don't seem to see much difference between me and background readings.  BTW my left hand seems to be positive LOL  (I'm right handed).  Lots of odd places to find millivolts. 
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: conradelektro on March 30, 2011, 09:45:08 AM
@ibpointless2:

I am not against your experiments. But I did the experiment as depicted in the photos of my last post according to one of your videos. I used aluminium wire and distiled water in a plastic cup, as in your video. And I am reporting what I see.

Today (after the "cell" was shorted over night):

When the aluminium wires are in the distiled water I get about 90 mV and when at least one aluminium wire is out of the distiled water I get up to 110 mV.

The meter is in DC-setting, with AC-setting I get zero Volt. (The meter has to be in DC-setting to see electro smog, acting like a diode receiver.) Today my readings are higher because air humidity is rather high today.

When I move around the measurements change drastically down to 10 mV, which strengthens my suspicion that I see electro smog.

I have no idea why you are getting other results with the same materials (aluminium wire, distiled water, plastic cup). It must be the location or the aluminium wire has some oxidation. It is hard to see oxidation on an aluminium wire, but it usually develops as a very fine layer. There might be some grease on your wire from the production process. I treated my aluminium wire with sand paper because it is 20 years old (left over from the construction of my aluminium garden fence some time ago).

It is also possible that your meter acts differently in comparison to mine. They definitely are of a different make.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 30, 2011, 01:21:21 PM
ib are you using your meter on AC or DC?  Sorry to ask as I assume DC but I can't quite make it out on your meter pic.  I'm curious what sort of reading you get on AC if you are normally using DC.  I forget if you have a scope but if so have you put the output onto a scope yet?  I'm just thinking of things that might give some clues as to where the voltage is coming from.  On a DC meter I can get about 0.12 volts just by grabbing the leads.  If I set them down it reads 0.000 with an occasional blip to 0.002 volts.  On AC I don't seem to see much difference between me and background readings.  BTW my left hand seems to be positive LOL  (I'm right handed).  Lots of odd places to find millivolts.



It is DC. I've tried AC but i get nothing. I don't have a scope, but I am looking to get one, does anyone know where I can get a affordable Scope?
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 30, 2011, 01:41:55 PM
@ibpointless2:

I am not against your experiments. But I did the experiment as depicted in the photos of my last post according to one of your videos. I used aluminium wire and distiled water in a plastic cup, as in your video. And I am reporting what I see.

Today (after the "cell" was shorted over night):

When the aluminium wires are in the distiled water I get about 90 mV and when at least one aluminium wire is out of the distiled water I get up to 110 mV.

The meter is in DC-setting, with AC-setting I get zero Volt. (The meter has to be in DC-setting to see electro smog, acting like a diode receiver.) Today my readings are higher because air humidity is rather high today.

When I move around the measurements change drastically down to 10 mV, which strengthens my suspicion that I see electro smog.

I have no idea why you are getting other results with the same materials (aluminium wire, distiled water, plastic cup). It must be the location or the aluminium wire has some oxidation. It is hard to see oxidation on an aluminium wire, but it usually develops as a very fine layer. There might be some grease on your wire from the production process. I treated my aluminium wire with sand paper because it is 20 years old (left over from the construction of my aluminium garden fence some time ago).

It is also possible that your meter acts differently in comparison to mine. They definitely are of a different make.

Greetings, Conrad


The High voltage is due to me trying different arrangement of wire. I went through about 50 plates until I found some that would produce good voltage together. If its electronic smog then why do the cells still work when in a Faraday cage? I have played with your idea of electronic smog before but it usually required a diode somewhere because its radio waves. I do find it odd that you still get voltage when one plate is out of the water, when I do that the cell looses power. It is nice to see that your cells go up in voltage when left shorted out too. When you move around it might be because you don't have your plates glue down. Also try to have one plate barely touching the water and tell me what you get. As for the oxidation of aluminum it happens as so as the aluminum touches the air so it safe to say that both plates are oxidized.

Now one thing, instead of aluminum try pencil lead. Pencil lead which is graphite will work too and its not a metal. 

I don't believe the voltage is coming from electronic smog, but is nice to have someone put forth an idea where it might be coming from so thank you. Even if it was from electronic smog that would not be that bad because it would be like recycle electricity. I think something very different is going on here.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 30, 2011, 02:56:12 PM
To help people better understand the same metal water battery think of it as a capacitor. A capacitor has two aluminum plates separated by a dielectric. My cells have two aluminum plates separated by distilled water, and distilled water can be a dielectric. My cell are capacitors that have never been charged, I don't recommend you charge my cells because it will harm the plates but they do take a charge. I never charge my cells because I won't the electricity that they hold when they're first made. My cells act a lot like capacitors, like when you first buy a capacitor or have a capacitor shorted out they sometimes still show voltage, they call this dielectric absorption. The true definition of of dielectric absorption has to do with capacitors charged up and then shorted out and once short is removed they still show a faction of the original voltage. Dielectric absorption is still called a phenomenon by most because it still not fully understood. There I believe lies the answer to my cells, not the dielectric absorption, but the fact that two plates put into a dielectric will produce a voltage. So the voltage I believe comes from the plates in water and we're seeing some type of dielectric absorption that didn't require a charge in the first place. The charge could be static or magnetic and thats why it changes for some. The charge could be coming it surrounding environment. The charge could be coming from the water, water still is a mystery to us just watch the documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOAnBg0PMUM&feature=related

I do think that a dielectric substance when exposed to metal plates will trigger a charge from somewhere or something.  :)
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: conradelektro on March 30, 2011, 06:24:47 PM
I just did some tests with graphite on paper and distiled water.

The measurements are totally inconsistent. The meter moves from - to + and from 0 to 80 mV. With two different digital meters (always on DC setting).

If I let the probes stick into the air, I consistently get about 50 mV (now at 18:00). This changes over day and night (I guess according to air humidity).

Well, I do not have any luck with this. It needs more patience than I can muster.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: e2matrix on March 30, 2011, 06:28:12 PM


It is DC. I've tried AC but i get nothing. I don't have a scope, but I am looking to get one, does anyone know where I can get a affordable Scope?

I've gotten 3 of them off fleaBay.  All were good deals but just take your time and wait for the right deal, check sellers feedback.  There is enough of them out there it's not too hard to find a good one if you spend a couple hours looking.  20 Mhz or under should be an easy find for under $100.  One I got was a 400 MHz digital Phillips/Fluke for $350 all purchased about 8 years ago and I'll assume like all electronics they are getting better deals and lower in price as years go by. 
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: e2matrix on March 30, 2011, 06:49:51 PM
<snip
The meter is in DC-setting, with AC-setting I get zero Volt. (The meter has to be in DC-setting to see electro smog, acting like a diode receiver.) Today my readings are higher because air humidity is rather high today.
>snip
Greetings, Conrad

Conrad,  using a Fluke 87 on AC I get quite a lot of voltage just holding the leads in the air.  I'll have to take a look again to see how much but I've always noted quite a lot when on the AC setting.  That fluke can read fairly high frequency on the AC setting bit IIRC most meters I've got of lesser quality also see voltage when just holding the leads or laying them out. 
   That brings me to wonder if ibpointless is creating some sort of high frequency rectifier here that is picking up ambient energy or maybe even zero point energy (which I believe oscillates at GHz + frequencies)
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on March 30, 2011, 07:14:57 PM
I drove around with my cells to see if they still worked in different locations. I tested them in places where radio towers and power lines were not close and they still gave me voltages. I even drove to a spot where I could not get any cell phone reception and I still got voltage from the cells.

As for the graphite test the jump around from positive to negative has shown up in some of my cell before. To fix that I found that shorted the plates out works best. Try to use graphite lead you get from mechanical pencils. The Graphite test was only to show that you don't need metals, some carbon items work too. I do thank you for taking the time to experiment on this.  :)

Its been raining all day and when I stick my probes of my meter up in the air the most I've ever seen is 10mV. 50mV is a little high, you might want to check the wiring in your house. Do you get the same reading at a friends house or outside far from your house?

As for the ambient energy idea I have tried heating the water before and i did see a increase of voltage(its affected by heat energy). It would be hard to believe that i'm picking of zero point energy but if you look at the Casimir effect you notice they have two plates separated like mine and they pick up ZPE, but there plates are really close together. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect
Unless somehow the water is creating a vacuum I don't think we could be seeing the Casimir effect, but they do look similar. --"The Casimir effect can be understood by the idea that the presence of conducting metals and dielectrics alters the vacuum expectation value of the energy of the second quantized electromagnetic field.[9] Since the value of this energy depends on the shapes and positions of the conductors and dielectrics, the Casimir effect makes itself manifest as a force between such objects."--


Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: conradelektro on March 30, 2011, 08:52:43 PM
It looks like we will have a beautiful spring day tomorrow, so I will go to the woods with some setup (aluminium wire, distiled water, plastic cup) to make measurements.

I believe that ibpointless2 is seeing something real in his cells. But in my house the electro smog is just to powerful to distinguish any output around 10 to 100 mV from it. Also my digital meters are not really high quality.

@e2matrix: What I see at my house so far is electro smog, which could be too high for such experiments. The Zero Point Energy should be at Tera-Hertz, if it exists? But infrared could be picked up. They are now building solar panels that go into the infrared (is in an experimental stage).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2011, 09:09:42 PM
Conrad:

No need to go to the woods...use the Faraday cage (microwave oven) that you probably have in your home.  This will tell you for sure.

Bill
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 01, 2011, 01:48:09 AM
If anyone is working on the same metal water battery cell I've found a nice trick to help get better voltage. You can have the same size plates in water and it will still produce a voltage but it will be the generic voltage of around 100mV give or take. If you want to see more power the trick is very simple, have one of the aluminum wires barely touching the water and the other aluminum wire fully in the water. For me my barely touching water plate is my positive. Let me know if this works for others.  :)
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: conradelektro on April 01, 2011, 05:12:52 PM
You can have the same size plates in water and it will still produce a voltage but it will be the generic voltage of around 100mV give or take. If you want to see more power the trick is very simple, have one of the aluminum wires barely touching the water and the other aluminum wire fully in the water. For me my barely touching water plate is my positive. Let me know if this works for others.  :)

@ibpointless: I bow my head and crawl in the dust of my garden hut, you are right, thank you for your hints and encouragement!

My house has too much electronic smog, so I moved the experiment to my garden hut completely made from wood, no electricity for at least 80 meters, and it works!

See the attached photos. Yes, the aluminium wire barely touching the water surface is positive (the other aluminium wire is in the distiled water). I reversed the probes of the digital multimeter (DC setting) to see whether this is true, and it is. It also gives the highest reading (more than 200 mV).

As you see, I used two different digital multimeters, the measurements are similar. The older one gives lower readings (I have to buy a new battery).

Ibpointless, you are on to something, I will continue testing. Great stuff! One has to be careful when doing the tests and measurements. I was much to hasty when doing my previous tests. (Everybody, watch out for electronic smog overlaying the measurements!)

A question: when you build your little straw-cells, one strip of aluminium sheet has to be shorter than the other?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: conradelektro on April 01, 2011, 07:52:30 PM
High weirdness showing up: Playing with this strange "distiled water - two aluminium wires - cell", I could hardly believe what I saw consistently (digital multimeter set to DC).

It depends whether one touches the surface of the water (the other wire is submerged) with the pointed end of the wire or with a round bend! Even polarity changes. See the attached photo.

One wire submerged:

- Pointed end of second wire touching the surface of the distiled water: about + 250 mV (water touching wire is +)

- Round portion of second wire touching the surface of the distiled water: about - 100 mV (water touching wire is -)

Remarks: More (than two) wires in the same water did not give better results. The amperage is so small, I can not measure it, only voltage. It takes 10 to 20 seconds till voltage stabilizes. Sometimes the voltage reached 300 mV (pointed end of wire touching the surface of the water). The water has to be touched, but as little as possible in order to reach 300 mV (needs some fiddling).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 02, 2011, 12:49:35 AM
Thank You Conrad I do appreciate what you said.

Hey you should try making one plate a coil of aluminum wire, it sometimes gives crazy results. I do know what you mean about the "u" shape wire making some crazy readings. Different shapes give different voltages and polarities. Playing with different wires and matching them up with other wires will give you better voltage like in my videos. Every plate is different, its like they take on their own life when created.

As for the smaller compact straw cells I have use many types, from aluminum foil, aluminum wire and aluminum nails. These straw cells are smaller of course but hold one big problem that i'm facing. You see these straw cells get air bubbles trapped in them in the middle which causes the cell to stop because theirs a air bubble blocking the water from touching. Its hard to get these cells to work right when air bubbles form.

The key to making these cells last are to keep the water in and the air out. Never fold any of the plates so that air can get trapped in them. This was why i went to the straw idea, it kept water in and air out but they're far from perfect because they trap air bubbles. Heating the water will increase the voltage too and increase plate size will increase amps. Different plate shapes will also determine voltage and polarities.

When you start putting them in series you'll run into problems like i have. You just can't go and hook them up and expect voltage to be higher. It take time and fine tuning of each cells, you've got to make sure the polarities are correct and that you got them hooked up to get the best voltages. and even when you do all this you may fine that some cells will switch polarities and then they become voltage resistors and lowers the total voltage.

Also keep in mind that people say this is impossible. You can't have voltage from the same metals in the same water, just check the books and the internet.

I do thank you for taking the time to play with my cells, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing this. Many people called me crazy and said this can't be done. I've tried for a long time to get this idea out there and prove to people its really happening but everyone just blows me off and ignores me. So thank you again Conrad and everyone on this forum for listening.

Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: conradelektro on April 02, 2011, 09:59:29 AM
I talked to a chemist and he came up with the following:

Oxygen (in the air) reacts with aluminium and produces electrons (or is releasing some electrons into the air) and the other wire (sticking in the distiled water) does not have this reaction (or has it only in the part not in the water). In this way a potential difference between the two wires arises.

Aluminium is highly reactive and forms a thin layer whenever exposed to air. Aluminium is also a very good conductor. Oxidations on the surface of aluminium influence conductivity (on spot where the layer is forming) very much.

Shapes: charge collection on surfaces is influenced by shape. Specially pointed regions give off electrons into the air or into the water. Touching the water with a U-shaped wired might divide the charge on the wire into a negative and positive part.

Weirdness: electric charges move around on surfaces, collect in some places and split up in positive and negative charges depending on the shape and size of a surface (pointed, round, covered by water).

Connection in series: The fact that the cells can not easily be connected in series, also points to electric charges moving in unexpected and surprising ways. The charges are also very small, therefore they are hard to observe, easily influenced by all sort of circumstances (shape of surface, splitting up, being extinguished when making a connection somewhere).

Of course, not a really good explanation, all chemical details are missing. The gist: reaction of aluminium with oxygen in the air produces a charge on the surface of the aluminium wire. The wire having more surface in air (in comparison to the wire which is mostly covered by water) has a different charge. Charges move around and split in positive and negative even on the same surface.

Nevertheless, very interesting, will make more tests with aluminium tubes, rods and sheets.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 02, 2011, 01:27:28 PM
I talked to a chemist and he came up with the following:

Oxygen (in the air) reacts with aluminium and produces electrons (or is releasing some electrons into the air) and the other wire (sticking in the distiled water) does not have this reaction (or has it only in the part not in the water). In this way a potential difference between the two wires arises.

Aluminium is highly reactive and forms a thin layer whenever exposed to air. Aluminium is also a very good conductor. Oxidations on the surface of aluminium influence conductivity (on spot where the layer is forming) very much.

Shapes: charge collection on surfaces is influenced by shape. Specially pointed regions give off electrons into the air or into the water. Touching the water with a U-shaped wired might divide the charge on the wire into a negative and positive part.

Weirdness: electric charges move around on surfaces, collect in some places and split up in positive and negative charges depending on the shape and size of a surface (pointed, round, covered by water).

Connection in series: The fact that the cells can not easily be connected in series, also points to electric charges moving in unexpected and surprising ways. The charges are also very small, therefore they are hard to observe, easily influenced by all sort of circumstances (shape of surface, splitting up, being extinguished when making a connection somewhere).

Of course, not a really good explanation, all chemical details are missing. The gist: reaction of aluminium with oxygen in the air produces a charge on the surface of the aluminium wire. The wire having more surface in air (in comparison to the wire which is mostly covered by water) has a different charge. Charges move around and split in positive and negative even on the same surface.

Nevertheless, very interesting, will make more tests with aluminium tubes, rods and sheets.

Greetings, Conrad


I've been told this explanation before and it raised many questions. You say the aluminum reacts with the air and creates the voltage, but I've have mention this before where I say you need to make the cells to where they keep water in and air out. I've made cells that do just that. A example would be the compact straw design, its sealed and full of water. Let us not forget that aluminum is not the only thing that works, carbon such as graphite works. Since Graphite is not a metal it cant rust so it can't react to the oxygen in the air. Also other metals work too besides just aluminum.

Of course further testing needs to be done to confirm these ideas.    :)
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 02, 2011, 11:16:07 PM
I've been studying aluminum for some time now and found some interesting things about it.

Aluminum will create a oxide layer on it as soon as it touches the the air (oxygen). So the Aluminum I use in my cells have the oxide layer on it already. Aluminum without the oxide layer when placed in water will actually boil the water releasing hydrogen. Here's a video of pure aluminum touching the water http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTMScbIMnfw

So the oxide layer on my cells plates are a good thing. So all the aluminum we mess with is already rusted over.

Also the aluminum oxide is insoluble in water under normal conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide

So the idea of cells plates reacting with the oxygen to make electricity is hard to confirm. You see the aluminum has already acted to the oxygen in the air instantly and if it didn't then when you put the aluminum in the water it would start to boil the water. So once its rusted over you can't rust anymore so how can it be reacting the the air when theres nothing left for it to react with. Plus the aluminum oxide that forms doesn't dissolve in the water so the water isn't removing the oxide layer.

But like I said before the killer proof that it might not be the air reacting with the aluminum to make the voltage is the fact that Graphite works as well and its not a metal that can form oxide.

I am will to accept the idea of the idea of the air is reacting to the cell to make the voltage that we see so long as some one can point me to some website that states that this is the reason. As of yet no one has shown me proof and I've been searching for that website and i can't find it.

Even if these cell use the air to make the voltage they're still something to cool to play with, and make a very eco friendly battery too!

Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 04, 2011, 03:06:38 AM
I've been having a hard time putting these cells in series. Having these cells in series are very important to me because once they're in series I can power things like LED's. I believe that people don't care about these cells because they can't power anything yet. When you try to put these cell in series they start to act crazy, change polarities and its hard to raise the total voltage. It seem like these cell like to be alone and thats where they perform the best.

So I'm going to start playing by the cells game, I'm going to let them be alone but i'm also going to have them power a LED too. I'm going to have each cell charge a capacitor and hook those capacitors in series and then I'll have a LED light up due to the energy coming from the same metal water battery.

I'm happy to report that the cells can charge a capacitor. I'm charging a 22,000uf capacitor now and its charging nicely but slowly. I will power a LED!
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 04, 2011, 09:04:33 AM
I've been having a hard time putting these cells in series. Having these cells in series are very important to me because once they're in series I can power things like LED's. I believe that people don't care about these cells because they can't power anything yet. When you try to put these cell in series they start to act crazy, change polarities and its hard to raise the total voltage. It seem like these cell like to be alone and thats where they perform the best.

So I'm going to start playing by the cells game, I'm going to let them be alone but i'm also going to have them power a LED too. I'm going to have each cell charge a capacitor and hook those capacitors in series and then I'll have a LED light up due to the energy coming from the same metal water battery.

I'm happy to report that the cells can charge a capacitor. I'm charging a 22,000uf capacitor now and its charging nicely but slowly. I will power a LED!

Try a small supercap, say about 10 Farads, and then use that to run a joule thief and you will be able to light many leds from your batteries.

Bill
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 04, 2011, 09:56:06 PM
I have stated before that barely having one plate or wire touching the water gives better voltage and this is true but this could lead people to think that the size of plates determines the voltage. Having one plate barely touching the water makes people think that if one plate is smaller than the other I'll get more voltage and this is not true. I have a picture below showing that even though I used a bigger plate in the water I still didn't get as much voltage as I do from cells that have smaller plates.

This now raises another idea on how to increase the voltage. Having one plate more exposed to the air than the other plate might increase the voltage. The more the plate is exposed to the air the more it can react with the oxygen to give or take electrons to make the electricity that we see. Through testing this is not the case, but does help to solve one mystery. The voltage does not increase when one plate is more exposed to the air than the other but it does show that the plate that is exposed to the air more is the positive plate. Another picture will be placed below to show what I mean. So if the cell was getting its power from the reaction to the oxygen in the air then increasing the surface area of one plate so that it is more exposed to the air should increase the voltage because more electrons can be given up but this doesn't happen and still produces less power than one of the smaller plated cells.

So plate size in water and plate size in the air doesn't determine the voltage. But plate size does increase amps and helps to determine polarity. So what determines the voltage? Thats still a very good question. I would say shape of the plate is the one that I see affecting the voltage.

Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 05, 2011, 12:48:46 AM
It could be possible that the energy I'm seeing from the same metal water batter is coming from temperature. The water could be cooler than the room, so the aluminum wire in the water is at a different temp than the one barely touching the water. The one barely touching the water is more at the room temp while the one in the water is cooler due to the water evaporating or something like that.

When I first started testing the same metal water battery I did try it with boiling water and got a much higher voltage than normal. When I fist started the most voltage I seen was around 200mV but the hot water gave me close to 400mV, that voltage was never seen before by me.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 05, 2011, 04:00:40 PM
I've made a cement version of my same metal water battery. I use quickcrete and distilled water with my aluminum wire. At 3:50 of the video I show the amps.

here's the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-HfWZACZ68
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ALVARO_CS on April 05, 2011, 08:35:31 PM
Ibpoinless
keep on the good work and thks for sharing !
I´ve experimented with your ideas here with simmilar results as yours, so I think you are on the right track.
I will try to aply some of the S geometry (and phi ratio)to the shape of plates and wires, to see if it does make a difference.
will post results here soon
cheers
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 06, 2011, 12:34:46 AM
Ibpoinless
keep on the good work and thks for sharing !
I´ve experimented with your ideas here with simmilar results as yours, so I think you are on the right track.
I will try to aply some of the S geometry (and phi ratio)to the shape of plates and wires, to see if it does make a difference.
will post results here soon
cheers


thank you,

Not too much and not too little is the idea here. I see that the plates have a certain ratio that they must meet to give the best voltage. You can see this too when you move the plate up and down out of the water, you'll see the voltage jump around until you get that sweet spot where it gives the best voltages. I must find these ratios.

I do want to state that the cement same metal water batteries do give off the best amps. they charge capacitors 5 times a fast. Could be the minerals in the cement that helps the better amps.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: b_rads on April 06, 2011, 01:07:06 AM
@ibpointless2
Cool Stuff 8)
I just tried your setup with alu foil and distilled water.  63mv - now the fun - I placed a 5mm led (white or blue, not sure which) and touched neg of led to cathode, pos of led in open water and 475mv.  It is 6:00 pm and the sun is pretty low.  The water seems to have electrified with the led.
Brad S
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 06, 2011, 04:16:11 AM
I think I may have a good guess as to where the power from the same metal water battery is coming from. The idea was proposed when I was studying the cement version of the same metal water battery and notice the voltage has increased the next day. So what changed about the cell? I did nothing to it but the concrete was curing. When it cures it gets harder, it may take concrete days before it can be load baring due to it harding. As it hardens pressure is put on the plates. Thus we see pressure come into the picture.

The Voltage is influenced by pressure!

Pressure does make sense. Lets think about my cells that use water, when you go deeper in the water the pressure builds. When we notice that one plate is barely touching the water it has a different pressure on it than the one fully in the water.

Remember when I thought it could be heat that influenced the cells, well this still holds true. The hotter the water the more it expands thus more pressure.

I believe what we have here is cells driven by pressure! Pressure Cells! Having one cell deeper in the water should create higher voltage, but a big tube of water is needed. If it is pressure driven then you could say its powered by gravity since gravity is needed to give water its pressure.

I'll put pictures below to show you the voltage increase in the cement same metal water battery.

This is just an idea so I could be wrong.

Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 07, 2011, 04:35:56 AM
I did some test today to see if heat or pressure affects the voltage of the cells and come to find out that they don't really affect the voltage. My ideas seem to be false as to why these cell work, don't get me wrong they're still slightly affect but not enough to confirm it.

As to where the voltage comes from is still up in the air. I really don't know what powers these cells. Any one have a idea?
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 08, 2011, 02:47:27 AM
I don't know if this is a good thing or not but my longest running cell which has been shorted out since 2-24-11 has where the plates touch the water, have turn gold in color. There is still amount of voltage coming from the cell when the short is removed. This cell has been shorted out non stop since 2-24-11. There is no holes in the plates and the water is still clear, the only thing that changed is that the cell is now half gold in color. I Think this might be only affecting the aluminum foil as other aluminum cells that use aluminum nails or wire have not shown this, yet? I'm still puzzled by these cells, I thought by now one of the plates would have be consumed with holes in it but they're still strong as the day I put them in.

Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ALVARO_CS on April 10, 2011, 10:50:31 AM
Hello Ib
This puzzles me too, as the pressure influence you mentioned before. (concrete has a long time rate to complete curation, . . even months !
I began the experiments with geometry shapes, and made a simple tetrahedron (5 cm side of face) in PVC foil, covered inside with aluminum duct foil (auto adhesive) and filled with distiled water.
with a enameled aluminum wire going strait from the center of a face, to the center of volume, and with only the tip exposed to water.
It started with 7 mV and after 1 hour shorted, went to  36 mV.
I´ll let it shorted a month to see if it further grows in voltage.
My next try is with a small pyramid also filled with water, and with Phi proportions.
Small contribution here, as we used to say in my country: a grain does not make a granary, but it helps his mate.
cheers
Alvaro
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 10, 2011, 04:50:30 PM
Hello Ib
This puzzles me too, as the pressure influence you mentioned before. (concrete has a long time rate to complete curation, . . even months !
I began the experiments with geometry shapes, and made a simple tetrahedron (5 cm side of face) in PVC foil, covered inside with aluminum duct foil (auto adhesive) and filled with distiled water.
with a enameled aluminum wire going strait from the center of a face, to the center of volume, and with only the tip exposed to water.
It started with 7 mV and after 1 hour shorted, went to  36 mV.
I´ll let it shorted a month to see if it further grows in voltage.
My next try is with a small pyramid also filled with water, and with Phi proportions.
Small contribution here, as we used to say in my country: a grain does not make a granary, but it helps his mate.
cheers
Alvaro


I've wonder what power i would get from a plate that was shaped like a pyramid. Shapes do seem to affect the power output.
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2011, 05:00:38 PM
Only one way to find out.  Hey, you never know right?

Bill
Title: Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
Post by: ibpointless2 on April 11, 2011, 05:46:10 AM
I'm thinking the aluminum plates of the same metal water battery are like magnets. where a magnet would have a north pole and a south pole I find that the aluminum plates also have something like a north pole and a south pole. I've made a video showing that when I put one end of the plate into the water I get a negative voltage (south pole) and when I switch to the other end of the plate I get a positive voltage (north pole). Also You may notice that I get a higher voltage when I'm in the positive range and thats due to the other plate being attracted to the plate, Like a north pole of magnet being attracted to a south pole. So You could say that these cells are magnetic.

here's the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-To_TadRGI