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Author Topic: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011  (Read 631861 times)

Offline poynt99

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1275 on: May 14, 2011, 07:00:57 AM »
The FG is connected in such a way to turn Q1 and Q2 ON and OFF in anti-phase, provided that the FG levels are set appropriately.

I think what we need is a firm confirmation of the circuit both for the actual "as-built" apparatus, AND what folks are using for a simulation schematic.

.99

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Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1276 on: May 14, 2011, 07:22:56 AM »
The FG is connected in such a way to turn Q1 and Q2 ON and OFF in anti-phase, provided that the FG levels are set appropriately.

I think what we need is a firm confirmation of the circuit both for the actual "as-built" apparatus, AND what folks are using for a simulation schematic.

.99

Poynty.  What you're asking for is a 'standard' representation of a non standard configuration.  To begin with the standard configuration of the MOSFET is to show the GATE between the source and drain when in fact the GATE is on the extremity.  It is also NOT standard to show the body diode of the FET.  These need to be factored in.  In other words the standard representation of the MOSFET is NOT consistent with each and every MOSFET on the market. 

If I had my 'druthers' then I would simply put the input from the FG directly onto the gate of Q1 and the ground at Q2.  Then I'd link the FETS as we do - Q1 gate to Q2 source - Q1 drain to Q2 drain - Q1 source to Q2 gate.  Then you'll see the point better.  Because what we've done is turned the MOSFET on its ear - that it can NOW read a negative signal as a positive. 

What I will do, later today - is see what happens when I simply put the ground of the FG directly onto Q2.

But PLEASE DO NOT assume that there's a standard way to show this.  There quite simply isn't.  There's nothing standard in applying a FET as we're doing it here.  And those that ARE doing the sims are aware of these problems.  They're trying different ways of showing this.  And the problem is NOT in the lack of a standardised schematic - but that there is NO WAY this can be shown in a STANDARD configuration.  It is decidedly NOT standard.

Added.  And if it works by putting the ground 'directly' on Q2 - then I INSIST that ANY schematic of this circuit - show precisely that.  I'll let you know what happens.

Regards,
Rosemary

   

Offline poynt99

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1277 on: May 14, 2011, 06:14:06 PM »
Rose,

MOSFETs have 3 pins as you know. From left to right; 1, 2, 3.

If the pin names (gate, source, drain) are a stumbling block for you and those working on the sims, perhaps you can draw up the new as-built apparatus by designating only the pin numbers and where they are connected.

I truly can not wrap my head around the problem you are having as you are describing. What the pin names are, and how the MOSFET is represented symbolically, is immaterial. All you need do is tell us how the MOSFETs are physically connected in the circuit, and if you wish to use pin numbers (i.e. 1, 2, 3) then please do. Use a box with 3 labeled pins on it if that works for you.

You really are stumbling on something that is an unnecessary self-imposed block to conveying this important information.

.99

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1277 on: May 14, 2011, 06:14:06 PM »
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Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1278 on: May 14, 2011, 06:33:14 PM »
Poynty - a friend of mine who is really good at these things - has just evaluated the circuit and confirms that what you have drawn is 100 % correct.  What he does is put the FG input and ground - gate to gate.  But they are linked - obviously through the source.  He's the one who's trying to get a square wave signal generator with a negative swing - but not quite there yet.

So.  Your design is good.  Now you'll need to get it to oscillate.  You may need to add 3.3  micro Henries for inductance on the wires.  Maybe help?  Otherwise - all I can say is that ours most certainly works.  Not sure why we can't get it to work on PSpice. 

Kindest
Rosie

Added.  And tell MileHigh that we most certainly have the CSR where you've shown it.  lol

Offline fuzzytomcat

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1279 on: May 14, 2011, 08:24:34 PM »
Rose,

MOSFETs have 3 pins as you know. From left to right; 1, 2, 3.

If the pin names (gate, source, drain) are a stumbling block for you and those working on the sims, perhaps you can draw up the new as-built apparatus by designating only the pin numbers and where they are connected.

I truly can not wrap my head around the problem you are having as you are describing. What the pin names are, and how the MOSFET is represented symbolically, is immaterial. All you need do is tell us how the MOSFETs are physically connected in the circuit, and if you wish to use pin numbers (i.e. 1, 2, 3) then please do. Use a box with 3 labeled pins on it if that works for you.

You really are stumbling on something that is an unnecessary self-imposed block to conveying this important information.

.99

Hi Poynt,

I put together a package of images for the electronic students here at Over Unity that don't understand the actual configuration details and standard nomenclature on one of the three (3) electronic components used in the experimental device(s) construction or build in this thread.

As you and the small few experienced experimentalist posting here know there is a connection between the Drain (D) pin #2 and the Mosfet back plane is also noted.

The use of any type of CONDUCTIVE paste between the "Mosfet Body and Heat Sink" is never recommended as you also know but others may not, and using a "SIL Pad or Mica" something as a INSULATOR is required for 100% isolation between the Mosfet Body and Heat Sink.

Best Regard's
Glen
 ;D

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1279 on: May 14, 2011, 08:24:34 PM »
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Offline fuzzytomcat

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1280 on: May 14, 2011, 11:09:39 PM »
Hi Poynt,

I also found for the electronic students posting in this thread a complete set of the best information available on how a Mosfet works for those whom are not aware on the operation or function, so possibly all posting here is on the same page and something for everyone's reference.

International Rectifier IRFPG50 N-channel MOSFET


http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/fet_01.php  ( JFETs ( Junction Field Effect Transistors )

http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/fet_02.php  ( How a JFET Works )

http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/fet_03.php  ( JFET Animation )

http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/fet_04.php  ( Enhancement Mode MOSFET )

http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/fet_05.php  ( Depletion Mode MOSFET )


Glen
 ;D


Offline poynt99

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1281 on: May 15, 2011, 06:54:08 AM »
So.  Your design is good.  Now you'll need to get it to oscillate.  You may need to add 3.3  micro Henries for inductance on the wires.  Maybe help?  Otherwise - all I can say is that ours most certainly works.  Not sure why we can't get it to work on PSpice. 

Kindest
Rosie

It's the inductance present in Q2's Source leg that causes the oscillation, so indeed taking the CSR out kills it in the sim.

Most likely it still works in real life because of the wire inductance still present. Of course in the sim, the inductance is zero unless we put some back in.

I will try re-inserting 200nH inductance there and see what happens.

Rose, what is the voltage swing on the FG for your tests?

.99

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1281 on: May 15, 2011, 06:54:08 AM »
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Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1282 on: May 15, 2011, 07:23:05 AM »
It's the inductance present in Q2's Source leg that causes the oscillation, so indeed taking the CSR out kills it in the sim.

Most likely it still works in real life because of the wire inductance still present. Of course in the sim, the inductance is zero unless we put some back in.

I will try re-inserting 200nH inductance there and see what happens.

Rose, what is the voltage swing on the FG for your tests?

.99

Golly - I nearly missed this.  I assume you mean the voltage that we measure across the gate?  Typically it swings 4 volts in either direction - but negative peak is difficult to determine because of the oscillation.

Hope that helps you Poynty
Kindest regards,
Rosie

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1283 on: May 15, 2011, 03:53:32 PM »
Guys - two points of interest.  The one is that a friend of mine has managed to generate a clean square wave swinging positive to negative - but has NOT found that oscillation.  Interestingly though the cycle mean and mean average voltages are NEGATIVE.  Very intriguing. 

Another friend of mine has simulated this using a 555 applied to the 'Q-ARRAY' as he calls it.  Here detected is a small 'moment' - if that's the right term - where the waveform across the gate allows for a negative triggering that allows for the 'spike' to reverse current flow through the circuit.  Again - none of those PERFECT waveforms that Poynty managed.  But they point to the potentials that we've been seeing. 

We're waiting to hear from some others that are working on more robust software.  Hopefully next week.  And yet others are being canvassed for their own efforts in this regards.  We should get some definitive results during the next week or two.

My report is being held up.  Yet another friend has done a really neat schematic of the circuit configuration - that will satisfy you ALL - AND it has the dubious merit of making it readable for me.  He's promised me an illustration of this soon.  Hopefully by tomorrow I'll be able to post this for you.  I shall also be using that schematic for my 'revised' report.  And I'll also post that up when I've got receipt of it.

So.  We're slowly moving in the right direction here.  Frankly I'm very anxious to see these simulations - precisely because of the advice from our 'esteemed' and 'learned' that simulations of these results are CONCLUSIVE.  And if we can get away from those TEDIOUS experiments - then I'm more than happy.  Not that experimental evidence isn't required.  It's just that it does NOT seem to do much to breach those credibility barriers.   :o

Kindest regards,
Rosemary

 ;D

ADDED
BTW - THE NEW SCHEMATIC IS ABSOLUTELY IN LINE WITH THE SCHEMATIC POYNTY'S USED.  NO DIFFERENCES.  DO NOT PANIC.  LOL.  It's just showing the same thing in a slightly different way.

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1283 on: May 15, 2011, 03:53:32 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1284 on: May 15, 2011, 08:39:01 PM »
Please note a correction to my recent statement about the circuit oscillating due to inductance in Q2's Source leg; actually I meant to say the inductance in its Gate leg.

.99

Offline poynt99

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1285 on: May 15, 2011, 08:42:30 PM »
Rose,

I have been able to get the circuit working again by re-introducing some wire inductance in Q2's Gate lead as shown in the new schematic attached here.

I show the "old" Vbat trace (red) just for reference.

Note the CSR probe polarity as marked on the schematic, and the resulting trace and average voltage across it.

.99

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1285 on: May 15, 2011, 08:42:30 PM »
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Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1286 on: May 16, 2011, 12:49:29 AM »
Guys,  Just a quick note,

Here's that circuit config.  Not sure that it makes any difference to anything at all.  Just for me it's more readable.

Take care
Rosie

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1287 on: May 16, 2011, 12:52:59 AM »
Rose,

I have been able to get the circuit working again by re-introducing some wire inductance in Q2's Gate lead as shown in the new schematic attached here.

I show the "old" Vbat trace (red) just for reference.

Note the CSR probe polarity as marked on the schematic, and the resulting trace and average voltage across it.

.99

WELL DONE POYNTY.  Really good work.  I see now that your results aren't so beneficial.  Does it make any difference if you just up the frequency?

Anyway very well done.  We just need to show the same negative results that we're getting.  I hope they're still there somewhere.  It's officially MONDAY - so, I may l get my PC back TODAY.  Can't wait to up load some things.

Take care - and many, many thanks for the work.

Kindest regards,
Rosie

Much edited guys.  I'm in dire need of sleep. 

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1288 on: May 16, 2011, 03:33:24 AM »
And Guys,  I keep coming back to this circuit.  It's so ELEGANT.  I'm going to take the liberty of uploading it again.  Just to emphasise where I was pointing.  It's this.  It's an 'upside' down thing.  Just for once a circuit has been configured that it really CAN accommodate the negative cycle - precisely because it offers absolutely NO resistance to all that NEGATIVE current flow.  All that energy that has been hidden and frustrated in the material of the circuit itself.  It's ALWAYS been there.  It's just never been given a 'chance' to show itself - except when it could - 'accidentally', so to speak - get into parasitic oscillation.  And then, for Heaven's sake - all we ever did was our damnedest to 'snuff' it out - dampen the energy into a whole lot of added resistors.  Anything.  Just to avoid letting the system do what it most wanted to do.  All that energy.  And it's absolutely consistent with Einstein's E=mc^2.  The material really does hold that energy. 

But.  To keep to the point.  I hope there are some of you who see this.  That NEGATIVE signal applied to the Gate of Q2 - is PRECISELY the same thing as the initial energy from the battery applied to the Gate of Q1.  In effect the MOSFET now sees the applied signal from the source - as if it were a positive from the drain.  And then it moves this 'negative' current flow around the circuit with the same 'force and effect' as it first moved the positive current flow.  It's a mirror image.

It's a persistent confusion related to our traditional concepts of the properties of current that has hidden this from us - for all these years.  The MOSFET is simply doing what it was designed to do.  It takes an appropriate signal and then allows the appropriate cycle of current to move - relatively unobstructed - through the circuit as it needs to.  And it also proves that this current potential has ALWAYS been there.  Just never allowed expression - a 'voice' - so to speak.

Golly.  I hope it captivates some of you - even a fraction of how it captivates me.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary
   
ADDED
Just for added symmetry - I would still prefer to see the signals from the function's generator applied DIRECTLY to the gates of the FETS.  Because that, in truth is what is happening.

And edited for clarification
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 04:03:39 AM by Rosemary Ainslie »

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #1289 on: May 16, 2011, 04:13:43 AM »
And for Poynty - when you get back here.  You just need to keep adding to that inductance to get it to a positive value.  And that inductance in turn, relates to the 'added' material to the circuit.  So.  It is my opinion that the actual quantity - the actual material mass of those 'inductive/conductive' components INCLUDING the wire - that allows for more or less 'returned' energy.  Therefore the mass of the circuit components comes into the equation. 

So Poynty.  Perhaps just keep adding inductance to the wires - and maybe you'll get the same results on your sim.  Worth trying perhaps?  Just know that we've actually measured the inductance on the wires to and from the battery to be 3.3 micro Henries.   And I think you can add to the inductance where you replaced the CSR - because clearly that comes into the equation.

Kindest as ever,
Rosemary

 

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