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Author Topic: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011  (Read 635484 times)

Offline neptune

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #255 on: March 23, 2011, 07:44:40 PM »
Hi Rosemary .Sorry I lack the necessary computer skills to print Poynt99s pictures. Come on you computer geniuses .

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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #256 on: March 23, 2011, 08:02:32 PM »
BIG YES   reverse the diode  sorry  redrew circuit for pix and made mistake. Now it will work.     mags

Offline nul-points

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #257 on: March 23, 2011, 08:50:00 PM »
BIG YES   reverse the diode  sorry  redrew circuit for pix and made mistake. Now it will work.     mags

interesting!

remove the first diode (because the 2nd one now allows current to continue thro' the RLC) and supply the circuit from a charged cap rather than a battery (it's just another type of voltage source)...

...and you get the switched-charge circuit i was investigating back in '08:

    http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4419.msg130409#msg130409


was it OU?  ...only if the text-books are correct in stating that the dissipated/stored energy ratio in charging a cap is always 50:50

unfortunately, my experimental results showed that this ratio could vary quite significantly - so at least i was able to prove that the text-books are wrong in making this 50:50 energy allocation claim

but there is definitely a charge anomaly which occurs - can get around 25-30% more charge-separation in the circuit after switching current into a cap than was in the circuit at the start

looking forward to see where this 'cap-shorting' effect leads us to

good luck all
np

PS ...just realised also that the Q2 (N-MOSFET), L1, R1 half of the circuit is essentially the same as Rosemary's circuit
(powered by the voltage which gets stored on C2, rather than a battery, of course!)
 
 

  http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com/
 
 

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #257 on: March 23, 2011, 08:50:00 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #258 on: March 23, 2011, 09:48:45 PM »


This is where knowing how to use the triggering and zoom features is essential.  Believe me, these scopes can capture and display any part of any waveform you want to look at.  You just have to know how to use all the scope's powerful triggering and horizontal timebase features.


Yes.
that is right.
These new digital scope are so powerful of features you really need to study all their
features.

As all the teacher always say: RTFM.

Read the Fxcking manual ! ;) lol...

Takes a bit of time and testing to get used to it.

Rose, we really need 3 or 4 cycles on the scopeshot from both tests,
so we can really see the exact voltage on the shunt.

As test 1 shows overunity already with the burst envelope and also
with the mean value display, I am not sure what test 2 will
show, when you zoom into the burst to show the single waveforms...

P.S: Best thing would be to just put a variable DC power supply
to the gate of the MOSFETs and have the MOSFETs oscillate all the time,
then you don´t need a complicated triggering for the scope...

So Rose, please try this, as it is very easy.
just instead of the function generator just get a power supply
and feed in a negative DC voltage to the Gates.

Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:20:08 PM by hartiberlin »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #259 on: March 23, 2011, 10:31:16 PM »
Here is the circuit simulatiom diagram from
poynt and his simulated scopeshots.

He should also post the SIMULATION file, otherwise
someone could say it is just faked...

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #259 on: March 23, 2011, 10:31:16 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #260 on: March 23, 2011, 10:37:00 PM »
I replaced the circuit on the previous page with the correct diode polarity.

I was doing it at lunch and the circuit looked funky from trying different diode positions that worked, so I redrew to make it cleaner and messed up on that diode. 

mags

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #261 on: March 23, 2011, 10:37:29 PM »
poynt did not "measure" the green voltage directly at the battery,
what I drew up to do earlier in response to his last postings,
so the battery voltage this way measured is pretty much useless.

We just want to see, if the direct battery voltage rises during the negative current spike.

It also depends all, in what working point the circuit is running,
so the gate voltage is missing...
If the gate voltage is set wrong, it could be underunity.

So poynt, please post the simulation file, so we can check it,
what values you did choose.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.



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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #261 on: March 23, 2011, 10:37:29 PM »
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Offline cHeeseburger

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #262 on: March 23, 2011, 11:29:43 PM »
Yes.
that is right.
These new digital scope are so powerful of features you really need to study all their
features.

As all the teacher always say: RTFM.

Read the Fxcking manual ! ;) lol...

Takes a bit of time and testing to get used to it.

Rose, we really need 3 or 4 cycles on the scopeshot from both tests,
so we can really see the exact voltage on the shunt.

As test 1 shows overunity already with the burst envelope and also
with the mean value display, I am not sure what test 2 will
show, when you zoom into the burst to show the single waveforms...

P.S: Best thing would be to just put a variable DC power supply
to the gate of the MOSFETs and have the MOSFETs oscillate all the time,
then you don´t need a complicated triggering for the scope...

So Rose, please try this, as it is very easy.
just instead of the function generator just get a power supply
and feed in a negative DC voltage to the Gates.

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan and all:

If I understand it correctly, I think that Rosemary's benefactors and sponsors who provided the oscilloscopes have required her to return them now, and I think she has said (she can certainly correct me if this is wrong) that there will be no more bench experiments or new data captures upcoming from her team at any time soon.  So it seems we have all the test data we will likely get from Rosemary for the forseeable future.

Bryan
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 01:44:54 AM by cHeeseburger »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #263 on: March 23, 2011, 11:55:57 PM »
Hey Penno

Ive seen all this guys vids. I was impressed also.

I have looked at this one and a few others again and again. This one, now that I look at it with details in mind, I dont like the way he thinks he is getting 3 different wires to connect, all together, and then all 3 be disconnected, 3 all at the same time, by hand. Consider the time frame which he gives for switch closure in the drawing, 1 us  even 10 would be a magical feat of enormous proportions when done by hand. 3 connections made and broken all in less than 1 microseconds.

I think that, being that he would have to do the connect/disconnect a couple times to show the charge made, is because of the issue I claim above.  I believe he is getting high voltage into the cap. I think he had a charge instilled into the cap via the charged inductor, but a switch and diode would have done well also.

But we dont know the value of the cap.  We dont know how much power was drawn from the batt, all we know is what we can see and hear with missing details that might confirm things. That cap is huge, but maybe a .5uf at some tremendous voltage rating.

  He did a vid showing a small cap the size of 15 quarters stacked, and producing multiple full charges into a much larger looking cap by just tapping the connections from the small cap to the large, but most of the small caps charge remained.
Well hmmm,  That lil cap could be 10000uf, and that BIG cap could be .5uf .   That would explain it ehh?  ;]   Trix 

If the caps were the same, I would still be drooling and tapping caps to this day looking for the effect, if I didnt ever figure that it was a trick.

He has one vid that still impresses me, but I havnt found a glitch yet

But yeah, to an untrained eye, those vids shock and impress.

And Im not claiming he was trixxin anyone for sure, he just may not have understood some things and didnt recognize issues I see. Dunno. Wasnt there.  ;]  Just my opinion. Educated opinion. =]

Mags




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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #263 on: March 23, 2011, 11:55:57 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #264 on: March 24, 2011, 02:06:01 AM »
hey penn0

lol  im tired lately.  I have to rest before I post any more.
When I linked to the vid, I had ff to see which one it was and forgot he had shown the value of the cap.  Wasnt tinking properly for a couple days. Gota get some sleep tonight.

I referenced other of his vids also but now I have to go back and see which ones I had actual issues also and post it more clearly.  ;]

Im beat.

Night

Mags

Offline poynt99

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #265 on: March 24, 2011, 02:36:43 AM »
Sorry Stefan. I missed that voltage probe on the battery. I changed the battery voltage to 60V.

Here it is.

.99

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #265 on: March 24, 2011, 02:36:43 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #266 on: March 24, 2011, 03:02:37 AM »
@poynt99

Looks like the battery is charging from the green line
with the small ripples.

All in all,
these circuits, which draw current from batteries and
also immediately return current via back spikes
can use batteries much more efficient.

If you draw low power from a battery bank in this way that for example
has 100 Amphours of capacity,
you will see, that you suddenly can draw draw 150 Amphours
of energy out of it, before the battery bank is discharged.

That is also the case in a good Newman coil or Bedini setup.
These negative spikes recharge the battery on the fly and make
them last longer, so they have a bigger capacity,
although you might have only charged them up with the
energy for 100 Amphours, you can then draw 150 Amphours out of it,
although the average mean current is still positive.

So the ou effect is more dependant on the right battery pulsing
and is happening INSIDE the battery as Mr. Bedini found out.

But in Rosemary´s test1  I would say from the burst envelope that
the scope had a negative input current value,
what also the mean digital numbers showed.

She really needs to take more and better scope shots to verify it in more detail.

Regards, Stefan.


Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #267 on: March 24, 2011, 03:56:22 AM »
hello Steve,

I have finally 'got it' that you want a more detailed shot of the oscillating waveform during 'light' and 'heavy' duty modes.  Abject apologies.  Of course I'll do this.  Downside is that I'll need to unpack those batteries.  They're heavy - so can't do this myself.  But I'll have some help here tomorrow and will then set the experiment up.  I need to do this anyway.  It's just that I took timeout.  I'm just so sick of experiments. 

Meanwhile - I assure you that in those oscillations - heavy duty or light duty - ALL show a greater return.  I've avoided showing this precisely because that math trace and even the cycle mean show even greater negative voltages.  It's been impossible to try and reconcile all that excess.

I'm still not getting notification of posts here.  It's intermittant.  And I'm getting my emails through OK.  Could I impose on you to check this?

Kindest regards,
Rosemary 

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #268 on: March 24, 2011, 04:33:36 AM »
@poynt99

So the ou effect is more dependant on the right battery pulsing
and is happening INSIDE the battery as Mr. Bedini found out.

But in Rosemary´s test1  I would say from the burst envelope that
the scope had a negative input current value,
what also the mean digital numbers showed.


If I can get those spreadsheets to you I will Stefan.  The puzzle is this.  The instantaneous wattage analysis SHOWS a negative mean wattage.  This is in line with the math trace.  And the math trace is a product of instantaneous voltage across the batteries and the shunt.  I was given to understand that this is the result of the phase angle.  They're at 180 degrees in antiphase.  This means that when the battery is discharging the voltage (current) across the shunt is at it's lowest.  Correspondingly when the battery is recharging then the voltage (current) across the shunt is at it's highest.  In other words - that much ignored and discarded parasitic oscillation - is actually the system trying to 'give back' what was first delivered. 

I was also advised that the reason instantaneous analysis is required is PRECISELY because it takes these phases into account.  I keep saying this.  Those waveforms perfectly re-inforce each other and, while it's in that burst oscillation mode, then the advantage is to the supply source.  PLEASE NOTE this.  We all know the immediate effect of a strong current flow from the battery.  It tends to drop - certainly under standard applications.  Well.  We get that same drop when it goes into 'heavy duty mode'.  But INTERESTINGLY - and within minutes - it climbs right back up.  I'll try and video this as well.

I haven't even touched on the MANY different waveforms and effects that we found.  The MOST interesting is that we can get the battery voltage showing a negative voltage - with wild swings even showing up on the Digital multimeters.  Then there are 'burst mode' settings where there are intermittent and HIGH voltage oscillations during the 'on' period.  There's a world of interest there.  We only confined our tests for the demo to those two extremes as they represent the anamolies that need to be resolved relating to the applied measurement protocols.  I keep saying this.  If classical power measurement is based on the INSTANTANEOUS product of vi dt - then classical measurments most ASSUREDLY show a GAIN - notwithstanding that positive mean average on the shunt.  And Harti.  The mean average voltage is NOT the correct measure for wattage - ever.  It's what it is.  A mean average.  It ONLY applies to a DC supply.  And we do NOT have a DC supply once that switching kicks in.  Surely you know this?  Even Poynty et al concluded this in a rather lengthy debate on their forum.

And of even more interst is that it can, in fact, be tuned to show a negative mean even at heavier discharge.  I'll try and get a scope shot of this as well.  But we confined our demo to illustrate this precise point.  In other words 'classical' measurement protocol applied - results in a value that - at it's least - can be said to be anomalous.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary

BTW = many thanks indeed for adding those shots of Poynty's.

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #269 on: March 24, 2011, 04:56:11 AM »

So Rose, please try this, as it is very easy.
just instead of the function generator just get a power supply
and feed in a negative DC voltage to the Gates.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi again.  I missed this Stefan.  I need to speak to the guys at CPUT.  As it is they've given me an extended loan on the functions generator and I'm not sure that they'll also throw in a dc power supply.  But I'll certainly ask.  I've 'retired' from campus until I can arrange research funding - if possible.  The Lab I was working is is due to be modified and there's building work planned.  And we need to get this into a more dedicated research basis.  I know that one student wants to write a paper to disprove this.  It'll be interesting.  But we need to get things done more professionally than we've managed to date.  Everything's been done on a shoestring - and none of it funded.  And frankly it's cost me much more time than I can afford.  Hefty inroads into the savings.  But no regrets here. 

Be interesting if all it needs now is that DC supply.  I had no idea.  I'll get back here.  It's what I've been looking for.

Kindest again,
Rosemary 

 

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