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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: romerouk on February 19, 2011, 03:51:45 AM

Title: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 19, 2011, 03:51:45 AM
When the coil is shorted at the right peak time the coil sends back lots of power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGbPwXq13GI
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 19, 2011, 04:02:49 AM
Hey Romero

I had found this idea on YT some time ago and tried it.  It does increase the output compared to normal gen function.  BUT, it does load down the rotor motion more with shorting.  But with recent developments, my attn is if the higher V can be disharged into the rotor drive coil to get a self runner.  Im just really getting into HV discharges, so now it seems logical.  ;]

Mags              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR7P-JSF6i4
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 19, 2011, 04:11:18 AM
Hey Romero

I had found this idea on YT some time ago and tried it.  It does increase the output compared to normal gen function.  BUT, it does load down the rotor motion more with shorting.  But with recent developments, my attn is if the higher V can be disharged into the rotor drive coil to get a self runner.  Im just really getting into HV discharges, so now it seems logical.  ;]

Mags              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR7P-JSF6i4
Even if I leave the coil shorted all the time it is not slowing down the rotor. The magnets on the rotor are not aligned in a standard mode.I will post some more videos with the rotor off too.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 19, 2011, 04:14:20 AM
Very cool Romero, no drag?   I didnt rewatch my vid but I think it had shown the drag I was referencing. 

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 19, 2011, 02:54:55 PM
Below is the circuit used to do the test.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on February 19, 2011, 03:14:42 PM
Sir,
I salute you for sharing This ,and teaching us the potential of these circuits!
Thank you
Chet
PS
And I'm also very glad that "Magluvin" is seeing this!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: IotaYodi on February 19, 2011, 03:23:17 PM
A more complex setup lighting a 240v bulb using the primary side of a 240v transformer with a 12v battery,cap and frequency generator. There are more out there..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIfY__szAAo

http://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/upright-alternator-circuits

This shorting of coils reminds me of Ed L shorting a pmh coil creating the magnetic current.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: aaron5120 on February 19, 2011, 04:21:46 PM
Below is the circuit used to do the test.
@romerouk,
When I read this post, I was reminded of your idea of the magnetic switch (attached hereby)from another post.  I was not able to convince the Mumetal factory to sell sample rod to me. I am still looking for mumetal rods from the Internet. But I wonder if the coils of the magnetic switch setup can be shorted with a peak detection circuit. Thus integrating both ideas in one.
I must recognize that romerouk you are a very creative guy.
Good job, my friend.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 19, 2011, 04:30:38 PM
@aaron5120
You can buy MuMetal rods here :
http://www.goodfellow.com/catalogue/GFCat4I.php?ewd_token=6WiCjqtkpWZny8uyjoKlKEulZ4k6NV&n=fQNlLZ8VWKGB1UKb0eBjj8ZuOu1N4E&ewd_urlNo=GFCat411&Catite=NI037920&CatSearNum=2
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 19, 2011, 06:01:08 PM
....
 I was not able to convince the Mumetal factory to sell sample rod to me. I am still looking for mumetal rods from the Internet.
....

Hi aaron5120,

If you could dig out hard drive disks (HDDs) from older computers (ask neighbours, computer service shops) or even buy second hand or defunct older hard disks, then you could dismantle them to find the backing plates from which you could cut pieces and sandwich them if needed. No exact need for using rod I suppose.
See this link on what I mean:
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Hard-Disk-Drive-Magnets-For-Wind-Turbines.htm

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on February 19, 2011, 06:15:57 PM
Coil shorting concept is really taking off.  Thanks Romeruk for showing this apparently easy way to build. 

  One question about the magnet setup on the disk.  It looks like 2 magnets at each of the 4 positions.  Are those setup something like this (crude drawing)? :
        ______________
        |_S________N_|
        |_N________S_|

Edge or disk is at left of diagram.  If so are they in a configuration as it appears that they need to be forced together and wedged in place (or epoxied or similar).
   Or is it a single magnet in each of 4 positions with the N/S simply at 90° to the edge of the disk?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 19, 2011, 08:18:30 PM
Coil shorting concept is really taking off.  Thanks Romeruk for showing this apparently easy way to build. 

  One question about the magnet setup on the disk.  It looks like 2 magnets at each of the 4 positions.  Are those setup something like this (crude drawing)? :
        ______________
        |_S________N_|
        |_N________S_|

Edge or disk is at left of diagram.  If so are they in a configuration as it appears that they need to be forced together and wedged in place (or epoxied or similar).
   Or is it a single magnet in each of 4 positions with the N/S simply at 90° to the edge of the disk?
I have used a single magnet in each of 4 positions. Having the magnets orientated this way reduces the drag.Even when I leave the coil shorted the speed is not affected.The coil used in my test is from a microwave fan with the original core. More turns, better the effect of amplification and less drag. The setup can be tested even in a normal NS setup.
I am working on a solid state version to be able to short the coil multiple times at every peak of the wave.
The same principle can be used in many variants. I think that Kapanadze is using something similar.
My 12 volt Kapanadze replication was based on the same principle. At the time I was working on that setup I had it working without knowing and understanding all about it.
Recently I tried to replicate my Kapanadze setup and after many attempts was not working like the original one.After playing a lot with it I realized that if the SG shorting the coil is not at the peak of the wave then I get nothing extra.At one point Kapanadze was saying that once the principle is understood the it can be applied to any setup, electrical, mechanical,...
Success everyone!
RomeroUK
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on February 19, 2011, 08:53:53 PM
Hi All,

How pertinent is this guys video now ? (1 and 2)

http://www.youtube.com/user/NRGFromTheVacuum#p/u/10/2cUS03yNl40

Looks like it's been under our noses all this time and we couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Kindest Regards, Penno
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: wings on February 19, 2011, 09:28:00 PM
Hi All,

How pertinent is this guys video now ? (1 and 2)

http://www.youtube.com/user/NRGFromTheVacuum#p/u/10/2cUS03yNl40

Looks like it's been under our noses all this time and we couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Kindest Regards, Penno

and this ... posted by minoly on EF  ::):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRyKVU6YzYw
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 19, 2011, 09:31:17 PM
Hi Penno64,

I think what you refer to is a different principle in that it does not have a sine wave or sinewave-like induction or oscillation in the coil, ok?  I think your video link shows capturing the kick back from a coil when switching current on and off but what is involved here is inducing voltage by a moving magnet and when the induced voltage is at its peak values (either negative or positive peaks) then you short the coil by a switch and this is what enhances the voltage in the capacitor (after rectification).

See here some more on this (Doug Konzen site):
http://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/shorting-coils-circuits

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2011, 12:35:02 AM
Like I said above, I had fiddled with this for a bit. I was thinking a bit on it today and there may be good use for it. Romeros setup has 2 poles adjacent facing out, so I assume the alignment with the core need be close, due to the 2 poles having tight connection and not too much field escaping that grasp. But close to the edge of the rotor, the core will see an immediate shift from n to s as the center between the mags passes the core. It might be interesting to see what multiple switching may do here.

I remember Zeropoint132 had the self running no bearing bedini sphere. 1 reed switch, 4000 turn bifi I believe 26 awg and 30 awg, a couple diodes a reed switch, 10uf cap and an led.  Maybe if the bifi, if we were to hook it up in series, the way we have seen, except with a diode that allowed conduction during generation, would charge the capacitance of the bifi which should be large, and then discharge with a reed across the diode so the current would flow the other direction causing and opposing pole to the spheres pole, that just passed, and then recycle. I have to find that drawing, it could be the charge is discharged into just the 26awg via another diode.  I have to find it, as it may use the reed to do what we are discussing here.  Be nice to get a simple runner.

ZP had issues with the vids that had shown schem. and was told not asked to take them down. Said it was a military thing. 

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 20, 2011, 03:15:17 AM
Replaced the reed from the driver with a hall sensor driver.
2 coils running in shorting modem, better output.
I have been asked to show my device when not rotating.I am attaching the pictures below.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 20, 2011, 04:05:45 AM
Replaced the reed from the driver with a hall sensor driver.
2 coils running in shorting mode, better output.
I have been asked to show my device when not rotating.I am attaching the pictures below.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2011, 04:09:11 AM
Hey Romero
Sounds good.  Have you tried any looping?   I need to try this, I need to see no drag.  =]

Good work!  ;]

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 20, 2011, 04:48:50 AM
Hey Romero
Sounds good.  Have you tried any looping?   I need to try this, I need to see no drag.  =]

Good work!  ;]

Mags
I have tried looping but with a battery in the system. Started with a 6 volt battery at 4.1 volts and after 4.5 hours the battery shows 6.3volts.With a capacitor works for a short while(like a minute) then it looses the charge. Maybe with a supercapacitor will work better but I don't have any.I will add more coils tommorow and see if I can replace the battery with a capacitor.I don't see any drag when using this type of coils.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 20, 2011, 04:50:45 AM
now after almost 6 hours I need to change or discharge the battery, is shows 7.2volts.
I had no load at all, not even the LED's connected
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 20, 2011, 05:04:57 AM
Well done Romero !
Keep at it and let us know, if you could get it to selfrun just on
a cap.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2011, 05:10:57 AM
Have you tried rundown test runs, like how long from 1000rpm to 0 with and without the shorted coil?  This will give you a better idea.  If you have a meter that can measure hz, you can set up an rpm sense coil so you know what speed to start the timer.

You might find some drag, and also this method can help you lessen it possibly by trying different things.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Qwert on February 20, 2011, 06:54:51 AM
Hi. Since my understandings are on the pop-sci level, I have a stupid question: is it possible to obtain all these nice effects presented in this thread, using an L-C oscillator?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Qwert on February 20, 2011, 09:40:56 AM
Hi, again. I found a link, of which content can be useful for experimenters: how to make a Zinc Negative Resistance Oscillator: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/zincosc.htm
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2011, 09:43:24 PM
Here is a tidbit from Teslas Colorado Springs Notes   pg 48.   It shows a primary that can easily substitute a rotor with magnets, and the secondary being partially shorted with a break.
Just another variable to think about. ;]

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2011, 09:53:54 PM
Oh  on trying to run with a cap, it cant be treated as a battery.  When taking from it, add a resistor to simulate the current flow from a battery. Other wise the cap will discharge everything.  If with the resistor it keeps some after discharge, then the recharge is easier, as it is just supplemental, not having to refill from empty. ;]

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2011, 09:55:42 PM
Maybe thats what they mean by Dont kill the dipole. ;]

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on February 20, 2011, 10:28:48 PM
Look ! It is the same as old Magnacoaster method. I'm 100% sure.
Stick neo magnets to that coil to get OU.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7446-magnacoaster-vorktex-technology.html
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on February 21, 2011, 12:07:24 AM
Hi all hi Romero

thanks for this info

And my 2 cents for the beginning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BxwkvCaIg

good luck at all

laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 21, 2011, 12:21:48 AM
Hi Laurent,

Thanks for the nice video, very informative and please could you check that when reed switch shorts the coil then the input current to the motor taken from the power supply changes to a higher value?

Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 12:29:10 AM
Very well done Laurant !
Maybe you can just try to use a selfoscillating relay, which closes and opens by itsself by using
a 9 Volts battery on a few other relay pins to drive this relay, so that it opens and closes multiple times
per second and then please show the waveform again on your scope ?

This could replace the reed switch and will be easier, cause you don´t need to hold any
reed switch in your hand.
You can just let it open and close all the time...
does not matter, if it is only at the peak of the amplitude.


Surely you can also use an electronic switch for this purpose and
just drive it with a free running pulse generator.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 01:27:01 AM
P.S.
YOu could also use a battery and a series resistor and a coil
like an R L circuit and make the coil have about 100 mA in the DC mode as the current.

Then you can short out the coil very fast on and off across the coil via a mechanical or electronical switch,
so this will also induce many spikes across the coil which could
be captured via a diode into a capacitor.
If you make the coil big enough and the switching frequency fast enough you
should also get more output then input.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Bruce_TPU on February 21, 2011, 01:28:07 AM
One wonders if a Solid State version could not be made, using an earth battery.  Make and break the two metals of the primary to create AC on the secondary and then short the secondary coil at the Sines peak and dump into a high voltage capacitor.

Just a thought for anyone with a proper wound earth battery.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on February 21, 2011, 01:54:57 AM
Below is the circuit used to do the test.

Hi Romerouk,  That's great getting the battery to charge up while running!  That's big.  It's like having a self charging battery and just what I'm looking for.  I've got to ask a dumb question though and maybe even someone else will know the answer if you're not around.  In your diagram you show one battery and coil.  Is that what is causing the motor to spin?  I see it looks like an old hard drive motor and platter and I notice wires coming off the bottom of your setup.  So just wondering if you are running the HD motor directly or just using that setup as a low friction spinner for your motor running from the side coil sort of like the Bedini SG motor. 

   I was playing with my Bedini SG motor last night using a separate coil (MOT fan coil just like you show) to pick up from the magnets (however mine aren't oriented like yours yet).  When I shorted with a reed switch I could see big spikes on the O-scope.  I tried dumping to a cap but wasn't seeing much over the battery voltage.  It was a quick and dirty setup so I was probably doing something wrong but at least I was seeing the spikes when I held the reed switch close. 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 21, 2011, 02:46:01 AM
One wonders if a Solid State version could not be made, using an earth battery.  Make and break the two metals of the primary to create AC on the secondary and then short the secondary coil at the Sines peak and dump into a high voltage capacitor.

Just a thought for anyone with a proper wound earth battery.


You mean like this?


http://www.intalek.com/Papers/Handout3.pdf  ( page 25 )

Kunel's patent:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1762.0;attach=4295

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 21, 2011, 03:00:09 AM
@e2matrix
I am using a HDD motor to hold the rotor disk and the wires u see are comming from the HDD motor thinking that I can use that at a later stage, at the moment not connected anywhere.
In the youtube video I posted, I was using a reed switch to drive my small coil, now I have changed it with a hall sensor and a transistor to drive the rotor.It uses about 70-90ma do do the work.
I have added extra coils and more magnets and now I can get better and faster charge but still having a 6 volt battery in the system. With capacitor I have tried everything I know and sugested here too but after about a minute the voltage in the capacitor goes below 3 volts and my hall stops working due to insufficient power.
The position of the reed switches is critical to keep the speed unaffected while shorting.
I am working on a circuit where the reed will trigger a small circuit and for that period of time to short the coil multiple times.
Below is a picture with the setup at this moment.
One more important thing is the arangements of the coils to make sure none of the coils are shorted while the driving coil is at ON time.We need to send the charge to the battery while the driving coil is at OFF position.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Bruce_TPU on February 21, 2011, 03:24:58 AM
Hi romerouk,

Pls see below. Good luck!

Cheers,

Bruce
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 21, 2011, 03:29:42 AM
@Bruce_TPU
I am planning to do that too.

Thank you,
RomeroUK
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on February 21, 2011, 05:44:10 AM
RomeroUK,  thanks for the reply on that.  I assumed that was most likely how you had it setup.  I've got a bunch of old HD motors I need to strip a few out for things like this.  Sounds like you are heading in the direction like konehead described Ismael is doing of trying to do mulitple hits on the peak.  Exciting concept although I'll consider myself lucky if I can just get to where you've already been with this.  I think it's a good sign and quite surprising that your capacitor runs it for even close to a minute.  I'll probably just focus on using a battery and getting it to where it keeps it charged.  Glad to see you on board with this concept! 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 07:13:52 AM
Hi All,
you can use also some kind of this circuit.

If the voltage for the coil is produced by induction from a magnet
or via a running current from a battery does not matter much.

The toggle switch can be toggled all the time and you could also use
a "selftoggling" relay for this ( like a doorbell ringer circuit).

You can also use a MOSFET, but then you might not have the Newman
effects of the mechanical switching, which might put back current spikes
back to the battery and recharge it automatically.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 07:26:18 AM
P.S. Interesting will be to see,
what kind of effect this 1 uF cap will have.
You can also try 10 uF or 100 uF.
Should be NO electrolyte cap but a foil cap.

Maybe you should also short it out, so it is
not in the circuit.
Maybe it will reduce the current draw from the battery,
but the voltage spikes might be lower, if it is in the circuit.

Watch out, that you don´t overcharge the 1000 uF 350 Volts
output electrolytic cap, as it could explode when having too much voltage.

Always have a voltmeter and also better a load resistor across it.
If it goes over 300 Volts always stop the circuit and discharge the cap.

Be very cautious.
300 Volts at 1000 uF can easily KILL YOU on the first touch !

So I take NO responsability of your actions !

Always wear rubber gloves when working with high voltage DC
circuits and use only one hand to touch the circuit and only use the
right hand ( not the left one, where your heart is...! put your left hand in your trousers pocket !)

Also wear good isolating rubber sole shoes. Never experiment with standing just with bare feet
on the ground !

Good luck !
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 21, 2011, 02:32:18 PM
Hi All,
you can use also some kind of this circuit.

If the voltage for the coil is produced by induction from a magnet
or via a running current from a battery does not matter much.

The toggle switch can be toggled all the time and you could also use
a "selftoggling" relay for this ( like a doorbell ringer circuit).

You can also use a MOSFET, but then you might not have the Newman
effects of the mechanical switching, which might put back current spikes
back to the battery and recharge it automatically.

Regards, Stefan.

Wow   wouldnt that be a lot of constant current on the MOT? Are you sure it is on the right side of the switch?   Just asking and maybe you have a good idea here, just never seen it that way. =]

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: teslaalset on February 21, 2011, 03:07:00 PM
The example of Stefan seems confusing to me.

In this example the coil is powered by an external voltage source. Imagine the voltage source is AC.
If a sinus shaped voltage over the coil is used, the current through the coil is 90 degrees lagging.
If a coil is shorterned at the peak of the voltage, therefore there is no current flow at in the coil yet.
Using Ecoil= 0.5LI^2, this means no energy is stored in the coil at the moment the coil is shortened.

I think it is only the case when flux is generated by a magnet.
So, shortening coils at maximum voltage should apply to generator situations, not motor situations?

Basics:
Flux is proportional to current in the coil
EMF is proportional to the delta flux in the coil and therefore proportional to delta current
If a coil is to be shortened at max EMF, the delta current is max.
Delta current is max when it crosses zero amps
With zero amps there is no energy left in an 'air coil'.
So, if there is an effect, this should be related to magnetic viscosity of core material.
Using air coils does not make sense to me.
Any other opinions?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 04:59:14 PM
The example of Stefan seems confusing to me.

In this example the coil is powered by an external voltage source. Imagine the voltage source is AC.


Hi teslaalset,
your arguments do not apply, cause it is a pure DC current that powers the coil in my
case.
The DC current is just chopped via the switching.

It has to be tested, could be, that I am wrong, but that must be tested.
Also please test, if adding a permanent magnet onto the coil
or onto the MOT core does have any effect on the output.

It must also be tested, if it will work better with iron core coils
or just air core coils.
With air core coils you can probably go to higher switching frequencies.

Regarding the high voltage requirements Ismael mentioned,
it would be good to also use a high voltage power source instead the
12 Volt battery and just switch this via the resistor onto the coil
only for a few milliseconds and then switch it off again.
But then you need more complex switches and high voltage
switches, which are much more complicated.

Just try it first this way as I have posted it .

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 05:09:06 PM
Wow   wouldnt that be a lot of constant current on the MOT?


No, not, if you toggle the switch with 30 to 50 Hz switching rate.

Surely you could also additionally use a double pole switch to
switch off the 12 Volt battery from the coil while shorting out the
coil, but this makes it much more complicated.

By using it how I have drawn it, you will also get 12 Volts higher
output voltages then at the output cap as the spike voltage
adds up to the battery voltage.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 05:16:47 PM
The example of Stefan seems confusing to me.

In this example the coil is powered by an external voltage source. Imagine the voltage source is AC.
If a sinus shaped voltage over the coil is used, the current through the coil is 90 degrees lagging.
If a coil is shorterned at the peak of the voltage, therefore there is no current flow at in the coil yet.
Using Ecoil= 0.5LI^2, this means no energy is stored in the coil at the moment the coil is shortened.

I think it is only the case when flux is generated by a magnet.
So, shortening coils at maximum voltage should apply to generator situations, not motor situations?

Basics:
Flux is proportional to current in the coil
EMF is proportional to the delta flux in the coil and therefore proportional to delta current
If a coil is to be shortened at max EMF, the delta current is max.
Delta current is max when it crosses zero amps
With zero amps there is no energy left in an 'air coil'.
So, if there is an effect, this should be related to magnetic viscosity of core material.
Using air coils does not make sense to me.
Any other opinions?

If you have again another look at Reply #37 where BruceTPU
posted the diagramm from Konehead
you can see, that there is this AC cap in parallel to the coil,
when the switch shorts it out.
Thus there is always no 90 degrees shift anymore of voltage versus
coil current, so there is always a coil current at the max coil voltage level.

You need current inside the coil, when you short it out,
otherwise you will not generate any spike voltage !

ALso it does not matter, if you just switch this switch on only at the
max coil voltage level.
You can just chop the current of this coil all the time on and off,
so you need no complicated sync circuit.

Just a "doorbell ringer circuit" with a 9 Volt battery and a relay with
a few more unused pins at the relay are enough for it to get a on/off switching  with about
20 to 50 Hz is enough for it.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: McGiver30 on February 21, 2011, 07:07:43 PM
I attached a basic drawing I made and wondered if anyone can tell me if I got it or I am way off.
Thanks
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 07:39:13 PM
Yes, you can do it also this way, but you can also put a 1 to 10 uF foil
cap( 1000 Volts rating, no electrolyte cap) in series with
the Reed switch.

This will then reduce the drag on the magnet.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: McGiver30 on February 21, 2011, 09:15:23 PM
I understood that.. i just wanted to make sure i had it right in my head. It is actually for my own project I am building that i wanted the info for. Thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Michaelpier on February 21, 2011, 10:27:33 PM
I understood that.. i just wanted to make sure i had it right in my head. It is actually for my own project I am building that i wanted the info for. Thanks for the information.

@McGiver

The way you draw the circuit you loose the half of the power.You get only the convetional energy.The energy that people is used to see.
You need the radiant energy also.You cannot have this energy like that.You have to think opposite.Think Tesla  :)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 21, 2011, 10:32:11 PM
Hi McGiver,

Would you mind re-editing your uploaded picture file and upload again?

I mean the useful info in the full picture area occupies only the upper left corner, about 1/4 area of the full picture size, the rest 3/4 is empty space.
This way the width of the new picture will not increase the total thread page unneccesarily. You can do it in the Windows built-in Paint program.
Click on the Modify icon in your post for doing the removal and uploading.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 10:38:26 PM
I resized  the picture  for him.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 21, 2011, 10:47:20 PM
Thank you Stefan.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: McGiver30 on February 21, 2011, 10:47:32 PM
@McGiver

The way you draw the circuit you loose the half of the power.You get only the convetional energy.The energy that people is used to see.
You need the radiant energy also.You cannot have this energy like that.You have to think opposite.Think Tesla  :)

Think I understand, but can you redraw it and show what you mean just so i mean?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Michaelpier on February 21, 2011, 11:05:32 PM
Think I understand, but can you redraw it and show what you mean just so i mean?


This set up it will give you this but only very minute power.To have some real power you need to insert something more to boost the production.Look at my channel hfaistio under coil short.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: TheCell on February 21, 2011, 11:09:15 PM
http://www.fuellesspower.com/

Have a lock at the free energy demo kit.
It's a coil ;one end to a  resistor , the other end to the diode.
The now remaining ends connected to the mulimeter . Parallel to this multimeter a cap, when connected raising voltage / amps whatever he is measuring here.
Is this related to free energy / cold electricity.
Does the cap collect this 'cold electricity'. Many have here a lack of fundamental understanding, and somehow there must be a proof that there is indeed a voltage gain not resulting only by induction.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Michaelpier on February 21, 2011, 11:15:01 PM
If the batt is minimum 0.3v and more should be enough to produce voltage spikes 400v and higher. 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: TheCell on February 21, 2011, 11:20:49 PM
@Michaelpier
Please post your plan here, the lines are not clearly seen. Only guessing.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on February 21, 2011, 11:28:29 PM
What is R on schematic ?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2011, 11:32:27 PM
with R he probably means graetz bridge rectifier and the + and - output
are the DC outputs of the bridge rectifier.

Now it gets clearer.

He also uses greatz bridge rectifiers in his video.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Michaelpier on February 21, 2011, 11:44:16 PM
What is R on schematic ?

Does not really needed,just put an oil capacitor AC there and it should be much better.

The circuit on the videos is little different from this one.Only common is the theory.Here it is.

 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on February 21, 2011, 11:48:01 PM
 hi Stephan

Thank's for your shematic

I made a crude replication tonight with the air core coil of the primary of a mot and a 12 volts relay "modified to self trigering)

The frequencys is arround 400 hz (at 9 volts input ) and i get some results but so far not extraordinary..

But i will try deeper in the  concept tomorrow

Anyway thanks for the input

And good luck at all

laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Michaelpier on February 21, 2011, 11:49:46 PM
By the way i am trying a new setup now with no moving relays and mechanical stuff.Hope to finish it soon. :)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Thaelin on February 22, 2011, 06:19:17 PM
    Just a tidbit here. With the magnets positioned the way they
are, when they go by the coils it will do a hard pole reversal. This
will create a sine wave output as if you had spaced north/south
magnets. You will not get as strong a field to the coils that way
but switching poles.

thay
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on February 23, 2011, 11:32:08 PM
I'm just wondering. Isn't that another example of a rule " don't kill the dipole" ?
We have magnetic dipole inside coil. We know that when coil is disconnected there is back EMF impulse, and we know that really this impulse is nothing but natural LC oscillation of coil self-inductance and distributed capacitance. The only problem is direction os that back emf.
When we make&break at the peak of magnetic field there is a one way situation because magnetic field is going to change into electric. We are somehow converting that small portion of magnetic field into forward EMF !!! Doing it exactly at natural LC resonance we could have gain and maybe also do not deplete source.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on February 23, 2011, 11:46:29 PM
or maybe I'm wrong  ;D maybe it's about capacitance of coil
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on February 23, 2011, 11:51:59 PM
Hi all

2 other cents

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QanbffVFZPU

hope this helps

good luck at all :)

laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 24, 2011, 12:51:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYaPvGipao4
Shorting the coil will produce a powerful high voltage spike that charges the capacitor very fast.The rotor remains unaffected even when the coil is shorted continuously.The position of the reed switch is critical to get the maximum spike and maintain the rotor speed unaffected.
People trying to replicate this type of rotor make sure that the magnets are secured properly - they can act as bullets(it happend to me too).I have used a plastic ring 2 layers, cut and made from a plastic watter bottle.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 24, 2011, 01:50:30 AM
@romerouk
well done !

Can you try to put a about 5 Watts 230 Volts incandescent bulb lamp
across the cap as a load and see, if it lights up ?

Or put 50 white LEDs in series and see, if they will
light up ?
(use an additional  series resistor so you don´t  blow them up the first time...)

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on February 24, 2011, 02:00:16 AM
@Laurent,
well done, you are getting closer.

Just try to let your chopper circuit run all the time, not just in the
maximum amplitude.
This way it will produce much more ringings all the time and thus
much more output.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 24, 2011, 02:59:49 AM
@romerouk
well done !

Can you try to put a about 5 Watts 230 Volts incandescent bulb lamp
across the cap as a load and see, if it lights up ?

Or put 50 white LEDs in series and see, if they will
light up ?
(use an additional  series resistor so you don´t  blow them up the first time...)

Regards, Stefan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC_0-0YutKI
72 LED's powered from the shorted coil
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: darkspeed on February 24, 2011, 03:23:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC_0-0YutKI
72 LED's powered from the shorted coil

Nice design!

I want to see a spin down time with and without the output coil on the board.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 24, 2011, 03:43:18 AM
Nice job Romero.  ;]
A light bulb should be easy. It doesnt have to be 100w to prove anything. Small 4w consumes 30ma at 120v.  It should light bright and they are cheap.  Then step up as you develop it.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on February 24, 2011, 04:33:12 AM
Hey Romero

That rotor gets up to good speeds with that single stator. Have you measured the input current to see power in?  Be interesting.

From what I see, if you add more gen coils, they could all join to a single cap. You may see some drag by adding say 3 more, but then you can readjust.  Myself, I would have each of the 4 coils with their own reed and out diode, all to 1 cap, and stagger the coils so they fire in sequence. ;]   I think you are getting very good power out for the distance from the rotor. 

The core, is it just some of the original core but short?

I like the heavy rotor and the mags worked out perfect.  =]

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on February 24, 2011, 05:54:21 AM
Hi Romero,

Great work.

I think you will be pleasantly suprised if you go to a half wave rectifier. You are using
only one diode, yeah.

I used two and what a massive jump in output.

Trying hard to get a self runner.

Penno

C ----------->--------C
O                             A
I                              P
L------------<--------S


Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 24, 2011, 10:55:31 AM
Hi Penno,

Sorry to chime in, did not you want to say a full wave rectifier instead of the half wave?   Your 'schematic' below shows a half wave rectifier, even though you show a second diode?  So I cannot get how you mean.

Normally, using a full wave bridge across the coil, not only the spikes get captured and dumped into the capacitor but any induced voltage waveforms that are higher in amplitude than any two diodes forward voltages (out of the 4 diodes).  If your arrow symbols in your 'schematic' represent your two diodes, you still have a half wave rectifier and any voltage with reverse polarity to these two diodes gets blocked, cannot go into the capacitor.

Thanks,  Gyula

Hi Romero,

Great work.

I think you will be pleasantly suprised if you go to a half wave rectifier. You are using
only one diode, yeah.

I used two and what a massive jump in output.

Trying hard to get a self runner.

Penno

C ----------->--------C
O                             A
I                              P
L------------<--------S
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on February 24, 2011, 11:07:09 AM
Hi G,

Yes, you are correct.

But all I can tell you is what I see on my meter.

A single diode then into 3 x mot caps = 11vdc
Two diodes as per above = 100vdc

I shold stop beign lazy and put the scope on it.

Penno

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 24, 2011, 11:21:46 AM
Hi Penno,

Thanks and a scope shot would tell it sure. Maybe you would feel like using a full wave bridge too, just to compare the DC levels...   however it would be better using fast recovery diodes for the bridge or at least two more diodes of the same type you have used already when got the 100V DC.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 24, 2011, 12:31:19 PM
@Magluvin
The core is the original one comming from the microwave fan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Lakes on February 24, 2011, 02:51:21 PM
You should be able to measure the pulse freq from the hall effect to get an idea of speed/run down times with/without load.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on February 24, 2011, 07:39:55 PM
Nice work Romerouk!  Looks like you could get a self runner there.  Considering the low power consumption on HD motors it seems doable.  Might need to try a smaller laptop HD like the 2.5" ones.  I see you went back to a reed switch on this one.  It appears to be lighting up some in the video.  Is that from sparking or getting hot?   I blew one out recently when I accidentally put a 12 volt nicad across it, lit up real nice for a couple seconds. 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 24, 2011, 08:00:52 PM
Nice work Romerouk!  Looks like you could get a self runner there.  Considering the low power consumption on HD motors it seems doable.  Might need to try a smaller laptop HD like the 2.5" ones.  I see you went back to a reed switch on this one.  It appears to be lighting up some in the video.  Is that from sparking or getting hot?   I blew one out recently when I accidentally put a 12 volt nicad across it, lit up real nice for a couple seconds.
I a not using the HDD motor to power the system, it is there just to have the disks with the magnets on it. I am powering the system with the small air core, hall sensor and a transistor.
I will post a diagram later.
Stefan suggested to use a 5w/240volts bulb but I don't have one yet.
The smallest bulb I have is a 15w/240volts and it does lit up but somwhere close to half brightness.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 24, 2011, 08:19:01 PM
Hi Romero,

Would you mind using a current meter at the input so that any effect of the load (LED, bulb etc) could be seen on it, how much the input current changes?  I understand and can hear from the sound of the RPM in your video that the load quasi does not affect the RPM but still it would be nice to see it too.  You could use a 1 or 10 Ohm series resistor and indicate the voltage drop across it with even a digital DC meter, the tendency of change could be seen, no need for true RMS value measurements now.

Thanks and keep up your excellent ideas.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 24, 2011, 10:21:22 PM
This is the circuit diagram used in my youtube video
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 24, 2011, 10:23:45 PM
Hi Romero,

Would you mind using a current meter at the input so that any effect of the load (LED, bulb etc) could be seen on it, how much the input current changes?  I understand and can hear from the sound of the RPM in your video that the load quasi does not affect the RPM but still it would be nice to see it too.  You could use a 1 or 10 Ohm series resistor and indicate the voltage drop across it with even a digital DC meter, the tendency of change could be seen, no need for true RMS value measurements now.

Thanks and keep up your excellent ideas.

Gyula
I will do another video with measurements.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on February 24, 2011, 10:33:05 PM
Hi Romero and all

Thanks very mich for your input and circuit

i just made a confirmation of your test

seems to be very promising

go on the good work

and good luck at all

laurent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB9wxySoBQE
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: conradelektro on February 24, 2011, 11:35:37 PM
Hello Laurent,

the experiment in your video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB9wxySoBQE is just amazing (lightning the white 3 Volt LED with such low speed). I would like to replicate it (because I have a rotor with four magnets sitting in my work shop). But I do not understand your circuit. The most simple circuits are hardest to understand without a diagram (at least I am such a dummy). Specially I do not get what you mean by "shortening the coil"? Do you permanently connect a wire somewhere in the circuit?

I would like to ask you to make a very crude hand drawing of your circuit (used in the video) and to post it here (a photo or as a video). Your experiment is very important for understanding what is going on, because it looks so simple and easy to replicate. You seem to have come up with the most simple demonstration of this incredible effect.

I wounder what happens when you use an air coil? Because the rotor should loose much less speed (less cogging) than with the coil (having a core) you are showing in the video. But may be the induction is then too little?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on February 24, 2011, 11:41:11 PM
when exactly reed switch is closed and when opened ?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on February 24, 2011, 11:47:25 PM
I a not using the HDD motor to power the system, it is there just to have the disks with the magnets on it. I am powering the system with the small air core, hall sensor and a transistor.
I will post a diagram later.
Stefan suggested to use a 5w/240volts bulb but I don't have one yet.
The smallest bulb I have is a 15w/240volts and it does lit up but somwhere close to half brightness.

Yep I knew that from your previous mention of it.  What I was suggesting was with that much apparent output from your second coil (used for the LED's) that it might be possible to feed that back rectified and at a lower voltage to the battery which might turn it into a self runner that would not lose voltage at the battery.  I'm guessing you may have already considered this.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on February 24, 2011, 11:58:30 PM
What is the input current ? if input power is below 4Watts then self-runner is possible imho
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 25, 2011, 12:03:53 AM
Test with measurements.
Shorting the coil seems that is not affecting the speed or the power used to drive the rotor.
I am working to replace the reed with mosfets and a hall sensor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33IQaN-M27U
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: dekoratör on February 25, 2011, 12:05:56 AM
Hi everyone, I just did a little experiment.
This tool is very beautiful. but it does not work itself. only a very low amps and high voltage.  you can try to charge a(220 uf 400volt) cap takes a long time ...
  Connect the battery to drive the output of coil with diodes.

then follow with a voltmeter voltage falls.

nevertheless romrouk friend thank you very much for sharing.

I wish you success in your work ...
(sorry my bad english..(google translate)) :-)
best regards ...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: dekoratör on February 25, 2011, 12:09:49 AM
perhaps the same as the inverter is running...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 25, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
Hi Conrad,

If I may chime in, here is a video from which you can get some explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRyKVU6YzYw

So shorting (not shortening) a coil means just bridging the two wire ends of a coil together at will with a piece of wire (i-e- with a reed switch or with a MOSFET etc), when the induced voltage in it is just at its peak values (both at the positive and the negative peaks).

When you use an air coil then you surely have a much lower coil inductance than in case of a soft iron cored coil. Hence the voltage spike should surely be lower versus a iron cored coil. (Normal induction law.)

I think the higher L you use with the lowest copper resistance, the bigger kick you get back from the coil after the shorting moment. This means multiturn coils wound with thick wire. I think coils made for audio cross-over filters are a good example for higher L and less ohmic losses, especially, if you deliberately use soft iron core in them.  ;)

rgds,  Gyula


Hello Laurent,

the experiment in your video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB9wxySoBQE is just amazing (lightning the white 3 Volt LED with such low speed). I would like to replicate it (because I have a rotor with four magnets sitting in my work shop). But I do not understand your circuit. The most simple circuits are hardest to understand without a diagram (at least I am such a dummy). Specially I do not get what you mean by "shortening the coil"? Do you permanently connect a wire somewhere in the circuit?

I would like to ask you to make a very crude hand drawing of your circuit (used in the video) and to post it here (a photo or as a video). Your experiment is very important for understanding what is going on, because it looks so simple and easy to replicate. You seem to have come up with the most simple demonstration of this incredible effect.

I wounder what happens when you use an air coil? Because the rotor should loose much less speed (less cogging) than with the coil (having a core) you are showing in the video. But may be the induction is then too little?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 25, 2011, 12:24:06 AM
Hi Romero,

VERY, VERY GOOD!  Thank you for showing the input current behavior.
If you need help in choosing MOSFET switch, tomorrow I can suggest some.

Greetings,  Gyula


Test with measurements.
Shorting the coil seems that is not affecting the speed or the power used to drive the rotor.
I am working to replace the reed with mosfets and a hall sensor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33IQaN-M27U
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: conradelektro on February 25, 2011, 01:24:11 AM
Thank you Gyula, your explanations (and the video you recommended) made things a lot clearer for me.

@romero: I am always worried about reed switches, their life is rather short. A hall sensor and a MOSFET would be great. May be one needs two MOSFETS, one for the positive and one for the negative side of the sine wave coming from the pick up coil.


Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 25, 2011, 02:09:23 AM
Hi Conrad,

If I may chime in, here is a video from which you can get some explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRyKVU6YzYw


The video is a very good demonstration but there is a big MISTAKE.

There is a drawing shown at the begining of the video which shows a sine wave.
Note that the magnet passing the coil generates a uni-polar wave pulse and not
a sine wave.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Bruce_TPU on February 25, 2011, 03:33:41 AM

Hi Romero,
Thank you Gyula, your explanations (and the video you recommended) made things a lot clearer for me.

@romero: I am always worried about reed switches, their life is rather short. A hall sensor and a MOSFET would be great. May be one needs two MOSFETS, one for the positive and one for the negative side of the sine wave coming from the pick up coil.


Greetings, Conrad
I believe that Conrad is correct in the following...

You can double down on the effect by shorting the coil at both the peak of the spike and the center of the notch (negative). This alone should double your output.

Good luck! 
Bruce
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: teslaalset on February 25, 2011, 10:11:41 AM
The video is a very good demonstration but there is a big MISTAKE.

There is a drawing shown at the begining of the video which shows a sine wave.
Note that the magnet passing the coil generates a uni-polar wave pulse and not
a sine wave.

@Masterplaster,
This depends  on the North/Southpole orientation of the magnets that are used.
If they N/S axis is pointing to the centre of the wheel you will have a different waveshape than when the N/S axis is pointing parallel to the outer side of the wheel.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 25, 2011, 01:13:01 PM
Hi Romero,

Would you mind answering some questions.

1) What is the DC resistance of your generator coil (you mentioned it is fan motor coil from a microwave owen with its laminated core, right?) Normally such motor coils have some hundred Ohms copper resistance.
Do you happen to have an L meter to measure the inductance of this coil?

2) There is a yellow rectangular shape capacitor on this generator coil, I assume it is in parallel with the reed switch to reduce sparking?  If yes, then it eventually is in parallel with the gen coil, right? What is the capacitor value? 

3) Did you find any input drag increase when you tried to position the gen coil closer to the rotor magnets (to have bigger output voltage)?  [Here I am aware of the fact that once you fixed the reed switch onto the gen coil's side facing the rotor magnets, then if you place this coil closer or away from the rotor magnets then you unwantedly change the switch ON/OFF time too.]

4) Have you considered using a full wave bridge across the gen coil instead of the single diode? 

5) In the latest videos, did you have the recovery diode on the input battery side as you showed in your very first schematic in the first page of this thread?

Sorry for nagging you, I think these are important details...  ;)

Thanks,  Gyula


Test with measurements.
Shorting the coil seems that is not affecting the speed or the power used to drive the rotor.
I am working to replace the reed with mosfets and a hall sensor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33IQaN-M27U
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: nilrehob on February 25, 2011, 05:27:46 PM
I did this some time ago, very interesting it is,
but i believe a reed switch is too slow not to create a drag,
using a microcontroller for this is on my todo-list, (together with turning the magnets 90 deg)
maybe an arduino would work, but i would like to have a faster cpu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKYqblP5ieg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OZKE1dvrvE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA6qVv4Ono0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck4y70TGTqY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSONkDcl72g

/Hob
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: conradelektro on February 26, 2011, 12:20:38 AM
@nilrehob:

I am impressed, you did a great job with your videos, outstanding. Much has become clearer to me. And one sees again, there is hardly a thing on earth which has not been tried by some clever person before.

Below please sea a frame I grabbed from one of your videos (and I added two red dots). Is the reed switched triggered at both dots (positive and negative peak of the quasi sine wave)?

I do not understand a reed switch well enough. Does the south AND the north pole of a magnet trigger a reed switch? (With hall sensors it depends on the type of the sensor.)

For me, the last video (the one with the LED) shows gain when shorting the coil. And since you heard a clear difference in the noise made by your rotor when shorting, the rotor could slow down faster with the reed switch (more breaking force induced by the coil), which would explain where the additional energy came from.

Microcontroller: I was thinking about using one, may be the new MSP 430 LaunchPad (I got four of them) is good enough (up to 16 MHZ)
http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/MSP430_LaunchPad_(MSP-EXP430G2)?DCMP=launchpad&HQS=Other+OT+launchpadwiki

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Bruce_TPU on February 26, 2011, 02:51:19 AM
Hi romero,

Think about this principle from Steven Mark and our work on the TPU.  You take ten thin individually insulated wires and wrap an input coil.  Parallel both ends of the ten strands each.  Now, not only is the output increased because the resistance is decreased, but you have taken the effect and multiplied it by TEN!


Double that to twenty, if you short the coil in the center of both the positive peak and negative notch.

That should drive it into OU territory.   ;)

Add another coil at the perfect distance across and parallel both coils, now you have dropped the resistance again and doubled the output from having two coils which is 40 times the power output that you started with.

Good success to you,

Bruce
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: akunkeji on February 26, 2011, 04:54:14 AM
Two years ago, I have been in the experimental coils shorted, then used primary of transformer as storage inductor, is a static device. Can improve the efficiency of the charging capacitor.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on February 26, 2011, 06:37:39 AM
@Akun,

Please, tell us how.

Regards, Penno
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Arthurs on February 26, 2011, 08:07:18 AM
Hello everybody
 Is planning to replicate, but: do not understand how the coil structure to achieve the best results, please tell me in the picture below should choose "A"? Or "B" type?
 Thank you.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Arthurs on February 26, 2011, 08:10:31 AM
Hello everybody
 Is planning to replicate, but: do not understand how the coil structure to achieve the best results, please tell me in the picture below should choose (A)? Or (B)?
 Thank you.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: akunkeji on February 26, 2011, 08:54:18 AM
@Akun,

Please, tell us how.

Regards, Penno

I’will do this Experimental again later.If succeed then I post Schematic,
and experimental's photos.
Best Regards, akunkeji
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: nilrehob on February 26, 2011, 09:24:37 AM
@nilrehob:

I am impressed, you did a great job with your videos, outstanding. Much has become clearer to me. And one sees again, there is hardly a thing on earth which has not been tried by some clever person before.

Below please sea a frame I grabbed from one of your videos (and I added two red dots). Is the reed switched triggered at both dots (positive and negative peak of the quasi sine wave)?

I do not understand a reed switch well enough. Does the south AND the north pole of a magnet trigger a reed switch? (With hall sensors it depends on the type of the sensor.)

For me, the last video (the one with the LED) shows gain when shorting the coil. And since you heard a clear difference in the noise made by your rotor when shorting, the rotor could slow down faster with the reed switch (more breaking force induced by the coil), which would explain where the additional energy came from.

Microcontroller: I was thinking about using one, may be the new MSP 430 LaunchPad (I got four of them) is good enough (up to 16 MHZ)
http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/MSP430_LaunchPad_(MSP-EXP430G2)?DCMP=launchpad&HQS=Other+OT+launchpadwiki

Greetings, Conrad

If i remember correctly the coils are not shorted in this particular part of the video.
When shorted you see very sharp spikes, or at least discontinuity in the waveform, sharp edges and such.

A reed-switch is mechanical and does not care about N or S.
By slow I mean the time between on and off,
the coils in my experiments are in my opinion shorted too long.
The actual switching is of course sharp as its mechanical.

16 MHz seems too slow to me, when i buy a kit it the cpu should run much faster
http://www.bugblat.com/products/cor.html
http://www.coridiumcorp.com/ARMmite.php
http://www.olimex.com/dev/stm32-p103.html

/Hob
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on February 26, 2011, 03:35:48 PM
@all,

This guy is good - feast your eyes on this and try and replicate ->


http://www.youtube.com/user/Mopozco#p/a/u/0/BhQ48SmGFO4


Penno

p.s. note carefully the charger side and the resemblance to nrgfromthevacuum's free electricity
from a coil and cap circuit. Also the twin reeds !

@Romero, this should help us get a selfrunner!

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 26, 2011, 04:25:37 PM
Hi Romero,

Would you mind answering some questions.

1) What is the DC resistance of your generator coil (you mentioned it is fan motor coil from a microwave owen with its laminated core, right?) Normally such motor coils have some hundred Ohms copper resistance.
Do you happen to have an L meter to measure the inductance of this coil?

2) There is a yellow rectangular shape capacitor on this generator coil, I assume it is in parallel with the reed switch to reduce sparking?  If yes, then it eventually is in parallel with the gen coil, right? What is the capacitor value? 

3) Did you find any input drag increase when you tried to position the gen coil closer to the rotor magnets (to have bigger output voltage)?  [Here I am aware of the fact that once you fixed the reed switch onto the gen coil's side facing the rotor magnets, then if you place this coil closer or away from the rotor magnets then you unwantedly change the switch ON/OFF time too.]

4) Have you considered using a full wave bridge across the gen coil instead of the single diode? 

5) In the latest videos, did you have the recovery diode on the input battery side as you showed in your very first schematic in the first page of this thread?

Sorry for nagging you, I think these are important details...  ;)

Thanks,  Gyula
The coil resistance is 286 Ohms. My L meter is broken and I cannot give u more details about it.
The yellow capacitor is 0.47uf/275volts, connected in series with the reed switch.
Having the coil closer will slow down the speed of the rotor.
I don't see much difference if using a full wave rectifier.
In the latest videos I did't have the recovery diode connected to the battery.

I have tried a solid state switching but it is not working as the reed does.
I have discovered a new way to do the switching without the reed, it is with only one extra component that does the switching... it is amazing... I have to understand it a bit more then I will talk abut it more.
I am also working to get the same effect from a AC source, no more rotor and magnets, it looks good already.
My time is not allowing more testing today but maybe tommorow
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: conradelektro on February 26, 2011, 06:31:47 PM
romerouk wrote: I am also working to get the same effect from a AC source, no more rotor and magnets, it looks good already.

@romerouk: I would say, use a 220 Volt 50 Hz AC source (secondary of a 1:1 transformer) and a spark gap that fires at about 200 Volt. But one could electrocute oneself easily with that. Please, do never do that.

So, it might be better to use a Joule Thief as an AC source. The secondary could be shorted with a spark gap to see whether that boosts the output or not. See the attached drawing. I did not try it yet, just thinking and planning. The CFL should become brighter with the spark gap (in case it works).

The depicted circuit oscillates at about 5 KHz and consumes about 200 mA at 1.5 Volt to light a 5 Watt CFL dimly (all without a spark gap).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on February 26, 2011, 10:09:22 PM
free info ...
http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: guruji on February 26, 2011, 10:42:02 PM
Can this be done on a bedini motor shorting with a reed?
Thanks
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on February 27, 2011, 01:07:38 AM

Hi Guyla the best mentor ever !

Thanks so much for your always so precise questions which force us to go in our deepest thinking  and obliged us to face the real problem face to face.

And of course always ready to offer your best services in order to help.

I can say thanks a lot to you because i have learned so much from the biginning .
it is my tribute to you. and please go on this way ,

But of course

let's go on and
my last video

please be critical it is necessary

good luck at all

Laurent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0l_zAC-m90
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on February 27, 2011, 09:41:56 AM
Hi Laurent very good work and video

I working on replicating your circuit design for coil shorting with mosfet you showed in the latest video.

I have to order some mosfets and I like to ask which is the most important parameter of mosfet for coil shorting circuit

Drain Source Resistance RDS on
or
Turn-On Delay Time td ON
or
Turn-Off Delay Time td OFF

to get best result.

and can you specify model of Hall Effect Sensor you used


Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on February 27, 2011, 11:47:47 AM
Hi Guyla the best mentor ever !

Thanks so much for your always so precise questions which force us to go in our deepest thinking  and obliged us to face the real problem face to face.

And of course always ready to offer your best services in order to help.

I can say thanks a lot to you because i have learned so much from the biginning .
it is my tribute to you. and please go on this way ,

But of course

let's go on and
my last video

please be critical it is necessary

good luck at all

Laurent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0l_zAC-m90

plyz paste post new  circuit experiment .....
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Arthurs on February 27, 2011, 12:49:15 PM
Hello: romerouk and woopy
 
    Please excuse my English is not good, you can not quite understand the explanation in the video,
    Please tell me in your power coil in the middle of the video is filled with what object?
    It feels like generating coil at both ends of each one?
    Is ferrite?
 
    Thank you
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Mk1 on February 27, 2011, 01:15:43 PM
That is the core a usual microwave fan come with . Laminated iron .
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: darkspeed on February 27, 2011, 03:58:25 PM


romerouk..

keep in mind your reed switch is drawing an arc at this power level.
your magnets are flying by this reed gap and there may be a quenching effect provided by them to the arc duration.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on February 27, 2011, 07:16:38 PM
@Arthurs
That is the core as it comes from the microwave fan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 27, 2011, 09:19:09 PM
Hi Laurent,

I appreciate your kind words, thank you very much!

Very good informative video again.
I attached a corrected schematic on your double FET switch and Hall sensors because I think there is a drawing error in it: I show you a blue wire which is needed to connect the 9V negative battery point to the common source electrodes of the MOSFETs) and you need to cut the wire where I show a gray line and text, ok? Also, I added black dots where connections are needed. Please check how your actual circuit is wired, I believe it is wrong as you show in the video.
When you short the generator coil by the FETs (where, at what circuit point do you activate it? at the 9V battery?) so when you activate it then all the nice 80-90Vpeak to peak sine wave voltage seems to be shunted to a lower than 10V or so. I cannot see any spike when you activate the two FETs, some spikes appear later when the gen coil (i.e. rotor's RPM) starts to recover (video time 6:03 - 6:05 or so).  Please switch on and use the Trigger cursor to stop the displayed waves running, this way the spikes will be seen much better.
(Your first or second video on this coil shorting topic showed very nicely the big spikes at the induced voltage peaks when the reed switch was activated at the right time.) 

Thanks,  Gyula

EDIT: The 22 kOhm resistor between the gates and sources is a bit high: a bit speedier switching should happen with 4.7 to 5.6 KOhm or so (also depends on the max output current ratings of the Hall switches). This way the switch-OFF time of the FETs improves. The best would be to use a dedicated MOSFET driver IC for the job, Doug Konzen just showed such schematic and tested it successfully 1-2 days ago).


...
let's go on and
my last video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0l_zAC-m90

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 27, 2011, 10:06:25 PM
Hi joefr,

I know you did not ask me but probably you do not mind my humble answer...  :)

Most of the power MOSFETs are fast enough for these pulse motors (even the P channel types has a less than 40-50 nanosecond rise and fall time or even better, for N channels this is under 20-25 ns or even better) so it is more important to choose very low RDS types that also have at least a 200 - 250 Volt Drain Source breakdown voltage rating (so the two in series gives the possibility of switching safely a 400 - 500 Vpeak to peak waveform across the coil, of course you wish to remain under the limits).
I suggest visiting either a MOSFET manufacturer web pages or a component seller web pages where you can search and pick easily. The goal is to have the minimum loss possible across the ON channel of the FET but no need for going to the extrems: if you have a generator coil with say 250 Ohm DC copper resistance and you use two MOSFETs with say 1 Ohm specified ON resistance for each, you will not have any reasonable improvement by using two MOSFETs with 0.05 Ohm ON resistance to justify the more expensive 0.05 Ohm MOSFET type, ok?  And in this example the loss is horrible in the gen coil if you wish to take out say 100mA, just calculate it. (Ploss=I2*R)  So using a dedicated generator coil for this job here is a way towards improvement, however you have to tinker again with the best placement for this coil to cause the minimal drag on the rotor!

rgds,  Gyula

Hi Laurent very good work and video

I working on replicating your circuit design for coil shorting with mosfet you showed in the latest video.

I have to order some mosfets and I like to ask which is the most important parameter of mosfet for coil shorting circuit

Drain Source Resistance RDS on
or
Turn-On Delay Time td ON
or
Turn-Off Delay Time td OFF

to get best result.

and can you specify model of Hall Effect Sensor you used
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on February 27, 2011, 11:51:54 PM
Thanks Gyula for great answer
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on February 27, 2011, 11:55:05 PM
Hi Gyula

I tried your correction on the circuit ( that i got from  the diagram of Doug Konzen) and it works , but i got this very pure sine wave without any spike but with peak to peak 80 and more voltage.

than i tried to modify the hall sensor position to get the spike and nothing happen. Than i simply disconnected the 2 Halls and the scope trace stayed the same.

Than i tried different AC caps and the result is each time very different.

So i have have to go sleeping and perhaps tomorrow will bring some better idea of this really complex thing.

By the way i use now the IRF 540 mosfet  and i intend to order some IRF 2807 with very low on resistance  any advice ?

good luck at all :)

laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 28, 2011, 12:06:21 AM
Hi Laurent,

I also must finish for today but what I quickly can tell you is that first try to use a reed switch just to control the two MOSFETs, ok? I attached the schematic I also showed to Doug Konzen last August. (it is in EVGRAY Photo folder http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVGRAY/photos/album/1586264660/pic/list ).
When you have this reed control going ok then you may wish to use a single Hall switch first, on one of the sine wave peaks, then with a second Hall on the other peak.

Good night,  Gyula

EDIT you may even leave out the series capacitor too and insert it later when you see useful.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on February 28, 2011, 12:13:27 AM
Hi Laurent,

I also must finish for today but what I quickly can tell you is that first try to use a reed switch just to control the two MOSFETs, ok? I attached the schematic I also showed to Doug Konzen last August. (it is in EVGRAY Photo folder http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVGRAY/photos/album/1586264660/pic/list ).
When you have this reed control going ok then you may wish to use a single Hall switch first, on one of the sine wave peaks, then with a second Hall on the other peak.

Good night,  Gyula

EDIT you may even leave out the series capacitor too and insert it later when you see useful.

this circuit ist corect or nocorect ?????????
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 28, 2011, 12:20:06 AM
Hi FreeEnergyInfo ,

I believe it correct, I also say first use it without the series capacitor (I mean the 0.47uF) and when you see the spikes at the wave peaks then try the right cap value,  Konzen can give you more info on this latter.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on February 28, 2011, 12:24:33 AM
Hi FreeEnergyInfo ,

I believe it correct, I also say first use it without the series capacitor (I mean the 0.47uF) and when you see the spikes at the wave peaks then try the right cap value,  Konzen can give you more info on this latter.

Gyula

THANKS.......
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on February 28, 2011, 02:04:01 AM
The size of the series cap and its use is essential to ensure correct operation found by tuning. The cap acts as high pass filter where the condition of repetitive shorting MODULATES the carrier frequency and provides intense high frequency energy..  The LF carrier is the frequency of the generator pulses. Anything you do at this frequency will immediately  lug back to the generator. However the modulation layer can be syphoned off without disturbing the carrier. This is because the event which created the HF energy no longer exists within this dimension so there is no Lenze effect and thus no lugging after the high pass filter. However the energy recovered is real and often OU.

BTW you don't need a mechanical generator to do this. If you can do all this with a solid state magnet coil setup and a pulse driver then short the pulses. Shorting or quenching is not new Armstrong discovered it about 1922 as Super Regenerative as coil interrupts increase the Q to > million to extract weak RF signals.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Arthurs on February 28, 2011, 06:55:30 AM
@Arthurs
That is the core as it comes from the microwave fan.

Thank you very much romerouk replies:

    But microwave fan core is not easy to get, Able to use other materials instead? It is said that the core effect of using Fe3o4 make very good?

Also: Since the use of the core power generation coil, the magnetic rotor magnets should not be too strong? Such as the use of ceramic magnets may have better results?
.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on February 28, 2011, 10:45:22 AM
Hi Laurent,

The IRF2708 has a bit low VDS rating, only 75V, the two in series would give 150V maximum peak to peak AC wave shorting, now you have a 80-90V peak to peak generated voltage, if you manage to short it, the peak to peak voltage may exceeds this and burns both FETs.
Here is a selection of the VDS=200V power MOSFETs from irf.com to some choices, try to pick the lower RDS types:
https://ec.irf.com/v6/en/US/adirect/ir?cmd=eneNavigation&N=0+4294841672+4294873618

But it all depends where you can order, perhaps you may wish to select from a component seller list? If you show a link to a seller I can choose the best available from them.

The IRF540 has VDS=100V, so a bit better than the IRF2708.

Gyula

Hi Gyula

I tried your correction on the circuit ( that i got from  the diagram of Doug Konzen) and it works , but i got this very pure sine wave without any spike but with peak to peak 80 and more voltage.

than i tried to modify the hall sensor position to get the spike and nothing happen. Than i simply disconnected the 2 Halls and the scope trace stayed the same.

Than i tried different AC caps and the result is each time very different.

So i have have to go sleeping and perhaps tomorrow will bring some better idea of this really complex thing.

By the way i use now the IRF 540 mosfet  and i intend to order some IRF 2807 with very low on resistance  any advice ?

good luck at all :)

laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on February 28, 2011, 11:21:37 AM
Here is one more link for mosfets where you can compare different parameters:

150V
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Ns=Maximum%20Drain%20Source%20Resistance&Ne=4294612182&Nr=AND(avl:uk,searchDiscon_uk:N)&N=4294916792+4294611819+4294607679&Nso=0

200V
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Ns=Maximum%20Drain%20Source%20Resistance&Ne=4294611950&Nr=AND(avl:uk,searchDiscon_uk:N)&N=4294916792+4294611819+4294610906&Nso=0

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on February 28, 2011, 06:51:47 PM
Had some interesting results using a Bedini SG motor type setup and the coil shorting.  Initially I was using the SG motor just because it has 4 magnets N-S as Romerouk said is needed around the rotor.  While it has only 4 I used 2 reed switches 180° apart and offset 90° from the coil (of MO fan).  I put a full wave bridge across the output of the fan coil (very heavy duty high volt high amp unit so probably a lot of loss) and fed that back to the run battery.  Had a scope on it and was seeing nice spikes.  Initially the battery was running down slowly losing a hundredth of a volt every few seconds while charging a small 9 volt nicad on the Bedini SG.  Run battery was a 12 volt Nicad drill motor battery pack.  Nothing spectacular there.

   Then I grabbed a 5ufd 400v cap (not electrolytic) and put it in series with the output from the FWBR.  I noticed the motor run battery stopped losing voltage.  But this did not happen until I disconnected the O-scope!  Fluke 87 used and was reading to .01 volts.  It just stayed at 12.32 volts and I charged two 9 volt Nicads and one 9 volt alkaline (yes they do take some charge) without losing any voltage (or at least less than 1/100 of a volt).  The charges were brief but enough to get the 9 volt batteries from abou 7 volts up to around 9.7 volts.  I then disconnected the 12 volt and ran the Bedini SG off the 9 volt batteries to make sure it was a real usable charge.  These worked for the first time in a while as those particular 9 volt nicads were weak and had not been able to run the motor for a long time.  So no real proof of OU or anything but the sudden jump from losing voltage to running the motor and charging batteries with no drop in voltage looks promising and since I was just grabbing parts I think with some fine tuning it can do a lot better. 
   Also the transistor on the Bedini SG was blown a couple days ago so I just scrounged one off a computer power supply to replace the blown one.  The one on there now is an E13007F2.  Probably far from ideal and I had to lower the base resistor to it down to almost nothing to get the motor to run. 
   I also tried feeding the Bedini output for charging a battery back to the run battery through a FWBR and cap but as soon as anything was hooked up that way the motor slowed and voltage started dropping.  I think there may be a way to do this but I haven't figured that out yet.  If there is a way to do that maybe the combination of the coil shorting and looping the charger back to the run battery might be enough to make a self runner...  I'll admit I mostly shooting in the dark here as I'm not nearly as sharp on this as many people here but this test was exciting to see.  I think the coll shorting holds a lot of promise. 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on February 28, 2011, 07:42:34 PM
Here is one more link for mosfets where you can compare different parameters:

150V
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Ns=Maximum%20Drain%20Source%20Resistance&Ne=4294612182&Nr=AND(avl:uk,searchDiscon_uk:N)&N=4294916792+4294611819+4294607679&Nso=0

200V
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Ns=Maximum%20Drain%20Source%20Resistance&Ne=4294611950&Nr=AND(avl:uk,searchDiscon_uk:N)&N=4294916792+4294611819+4294610906&Nso=0

WIEV .....
IRF 830     / 500V
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on February 28, 2011, 11:55:17 PM
Hi Gyula and all

Thanks for advice and i am looking for the best fet.

But more important at this point is to make some order in the research.

Because the general setup is really interesting and after 3 days of full scrumble upon i begin to see a way to go on.

So my aim is to replicate exactly what ROMERO UK did in his video, where he can light 70 LED very brightrly with only one REED and one 47 uf 250 volt cap  and this WITHOUT LOOSING RPM.

So  far from today, is that i replicated this and finally i could get my (all that i have at disposal for the moment)  13 led IN SERIE to very good lighting.
But the price for this is a slight increase in current draw on the motor.

So the aim of the AC cap (as per Konead) is to suppreseed the lugging of Mister Lenz. So i think that, the MATCHING  of the coil + core + cap + magnet rotorspeed  is at atmost importance.

And for today  when the rotor is spinning (without the shorting the coil ) it gives 3 volts after the FWBR  (and the 13 leds in serie does of course even get a sign of light) and  as soon as i connect the shorting circuit with the 2 mosfet , the same led ramp light very happily and the the voltage is about 36 volts.

Very interesting

i will make some thinking on this subject to prepare a video

good luck at all

laurent

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: scratchrobot on March 01, 2011, 07:19:21 AM
Hi Gyula and all

Thanks for advice and i am looking for the best fet.

But more important at this point is to make some order in the research.

Because the general setup is really interesting and after 3 days of full scrumble upon i begin to see a way to go on.

So my aim is to replicate exactly what ROMERO UK did in his video, where he can light 70 LED very brightrly with only one REED and one 47 uf 250 volt cap  and this WITHOUT LOOSING RPM.

So  far from today, is that i replicated this and finally i could get my (all that i have at disposal for the moment)  13 led IN SERIE to very good lighting.
But the price for this is a slight increase in current draw on the motor.

So the aim of the AC cap (as per Konead) is to suppreseed the lugging of Mister Lenz. So i think that, the MATCHING  of the coil + core + cap + magnet rotorspeed  is at atmost importance.

And for today  when the rotor is spinning (without the shorting the coil ) it gives 3 volts after the FWBR  (and the 13 leds in serie does of course even get a sign of light) and  as soon as i connect the shorting circuit with the 2 mosfet , the same led ramp light very happily and the the voltage is about 36 volts.

Very interesting

i will make some thinking on this subject to prepare a video

good luck at all

laurent

Thanks for sharing your experiments Very interesting  :)

Regards
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 01, 2011, 10:53:20 AM
Woopy, you have good nose :)

With reasonable confidence I can say that to access this "effect" one needs very sharp gradients and/or exiting coil at its resonance frequency,

Easiest way to hit resonant frequency is to use spark gap, reed in this application works as spark gap. Thats why people have seen good results with reed and virtually nothing with transistors etc. Ordinary solid state components when driven in ordinary way are slow and transparent for HF and just do not work in this application.

For those who are trying to make solid state version, good choice would be russian "kacher" type circuit. There solid state components are "shockwave" driven and give desired effects. (NB! Kacher can and will affect your health, strong RF emission! NB!)

I dont see how one can easily combine very sharp gradients at exactly right frequency with rotary version and transistors etc. So I would bet on heavy duty reed or some other component exibiting wide spectrum sharp gradient "white noise" emission (and physical breaking of circuit).

Also series AC cap is a must. When there is AC cap in series, Ohm and Kirchhoff do not apply. And thats already half-done deal.

Also forget about directly measuring amps out of this contraption! This power is only good for driving not resistive loads (or charging acid batteries)! To use it for resistive load you must first transform it.

And as always, trust no one, follow your instincts, progress only after replicating basic effects :)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 01, 2011, 01:02:35 PM
Look attach. Page 1055 (3), Fig. 6 - looks familiar :)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 01, 2011, 02:05:17 PM
Hi Laurent,

From the RSonline link above here is two 200V FET types I would choose for tinkering:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6887153   

and
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6886973

Of course there are many other types, these are maybe the cheaper ones, with still good parameters.

Yes I agree you try to establish a working plan / order. If you wish to replicate Romero setup, you have to use at least 24 white LEDs in series (I assume his 72 LEDs are connected as 24 in series, he has 3 such series line and the 3 lines are paralleled.  This means that the lowest forward voltage needed for lighting the 24 LEDs in series is 24 x 3.2V=76.8V or so. (White LEDs has a forward voltage range between 2.9 - 3.4V to conduct current.)
By the way,  this means that under this voltage level, there is NO current consumption from the generator coil. So the best loading test would be what Stefan suggested first with a low power incandescent light bulb  (it has no forward voltage threshold like any LED has). Of course such a light bulb could be substituted by a power resistor of appropiate value.

Unfortunately, the fan motor coil you also use has a big DC resistance coil and when you try to load it, the current drops voltage from the output and it heats the wire, you cannot use it for LED or bulb driving. You measure 3V after the full wave bridge, while your unloaded AC output is about 80V peak to peak which is about 28V effective value...  The only solution is to make another gen coil with thicker wire, to bring down the several hundred inner DC resistance to under 10 Ohm or less. 

Gyula

Hi Gyula and all

Thanks for advice and i am looking for the best fet.

But more important at this point is to make some order in the research.

Because the general setup is really interesting and after 3 days of full scrumble upon i begin to see a way to go on.

So my aim is to replicate exactly what ROMERO UK did in his video, where he can light 70 LED very brightrly with only one REED and one 47 uf 250 volt cap  and this WITHOUT LOOSING RPM.

So  far from today, is that i replicated this and finally i could get my (all that i have at disposal for the moment)  13 led IN SERIE to very good lighting.
But the price for this is a slight increase in current draw on the motor.

So the aim of the AC cap (as per Konead) is to suppreseed the lugging of Mister Lenz. So i think that, the MATCHING  of the coil + core + cap + magnet rotorspeed  is at atmost importance.

And for today  when the rotor is spinning (without the shorting the coil ) it gives 3 volts after the FWBR  (and the 13 leds in serie does of course even get a sign of light) and  as soon as i connect the shorting circuit with the 2 mosfet , the same led ramp light very happily and the the voltage is about 36 volts.

Very interesting

i will make some thinking on this subject to prepare a video

good luck at all

laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 01, 2011, 11:19:27 PM
Hi Laurent and All,

I think you have to see this new schematic drawn by Doug Konzen today because it shows the series non-polar capacitor in series with the AC input of the diode bridge and NOT in series with the switch that does the shorting.

This should make a difference in the Lenz drag as per bolt's explanation in the previous page, namely the series capacitor forms a high pass filter. This should mean that the induced sine wave is mostly supposed to be blocked by this capacitor (i.e. its capacitive reactance is chosen as a relatively high impedance at the sine wave frequency), however the spikes created by the shortings mainly contain harmonics for which this capacitor should show low impedance to be able to pass them towards the full wave bridge.
If I recall correctly, Romero used his 0.47uF capacitor in series with the reed switch.  And schematics so far from Doug Konzen showed the capacitor in series with the switch too. 
I think the capacitor in series with the input of the AC bridge makes more sense if the role of the capacitor is indeed working as a high pass filter.

This needs to tested of course.

rgds,  Gyula

PS The schematic also shows a MOSFET driver IC, capable for very fast switching. You find them under different brand names like TC4422 or MIC4422 etc.  According to Doug Konzen, this driver circuit works nicely, controlled by a normal Hall sensor. The RF filter shown in series with the gates of the FETs are small ferrite beads with a few turns (kind of choke coils), you can replace them with series 47 or 56 Ohm 1/8 or 1/4 Watt resistors. The goal is to prevent spurious oscillations in the gate circuit should it happen.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 02, 2011, 12:21:12 AM
Hi Gyula

Thanks a lot for this info about Doug shematic

will study and try it ASAP

for today, i could replicate Romero uk result  and i tried LED in serie and in parallel i will report the result because it is not so simple and i want to be sure before saying anything

For info i tried a bigger coil with much less impedance and also inductance with good results also ,i will go on the testing ( see the pix with very strong and probably too large pulse at the top and bottom of the sine wave)

good luck at all

Laurent

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on March 02, 2011, 02:15:32 AM
Woopy, you have good nose :)

With reasonable confidence I can say that to access this "effect" one needs very sharp gradients and/or exiting coil at its resonance frequency,

Easiest way to hit resonant frequency is to use spark gap, reed in this application works as spark gap. Thats why people have seen good results with reed and virtually nothing with transistors etc. Ordinary solid state components when driven in ordinary way are slow and transparent for HF and just do not work in this application.

For those who are trying to make solid state version, good choice would be russian "kacher" type circuit. There solid state components are "shockwave" driven and give desired effects. (NB! Kacher can and will affect your health, strong RF emission! NB!)

I dont see how one can easily combine very sharp gradients at exactly right frequency with rotary version and transistors etc. So I would bet on heavy duty reed or some other component exibiting wide spectrum sharp gradient "white noise" emission (and physical breaking of circuit).

Also series AC cap is a must. When there is AC cap in series, Ohm and Kirchhoff do not apply. And thats already half-done deal.

Also forget about directly measuring amps out of this contraption! This power is only good for driving not resistive loads (or charging acid batteries)! To use it for resistive load you must first transform it.

And as always, trust no one, follow your instincts, progress only after replicating basic effects :)

Totally agree with everything you said as part of why this works with a reed switch but will be difficult using solid state.  I'm thinking now about a possible cam setup with multiple automotive type points and larger coils. 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Arthurs on March 02, 2011, 04:52:38 PM
    I always think that the core of the coil is very important, it seems very suitable for the coil core Fe3o4

YouTube Video Links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA8HalLJ92c&feature=feedwll&list=WL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZE-pIXipm4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 03, 2011, 12:21:39 AM
Hi all

Thanks fo every contributers

let's go on

it is a very interesting subject and a lot of of remaining work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7SeAzDhXK4

good luck at all  :)

Laurent

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 03, 2011, 12:21:57 AM
Hi Laurent,

Ok, just take your time, this is not a race, at least I do not consider it that way, just take it easy.  ;) 

Gyula

Hi Gyula

Thanks a lot for this info about Doug shematic

will study and try it ASAP

for today, i could replicate Romero uk result  and i tried LED in serie and in parallel i will report the result because it is not so simple and i want to be sure before saying anything

For info i tried a bigger coil with much less impedance and also inductance with good results also ,i will go on the testing ( see the pix with very strong and probably too large pulse at the top and bottom of the sine wave)

good luck at all

Laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 03, 2011, 07:05:50 PM
Hi Laurent,

Late last night we wrote at about the same time I noticed but had to finish.

Good video, thanks and my question is whether you simply has not redrawn your schematic you showed at 1:22 on the two Hall sensors? I mean the corrections I showed in this schematic:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10398.0;attach=51179

The 22k (or now the 10kOhm) resistor's right hand side leg cannot connect to the common point of the source electrodes: that is what I meant by editing out your black wire with a gray line to mask it, ok? And you have to connect the 9V battery negative not only to the HAll device negatives but to the common source electrodes, too this is what I showed in blue line.

Please confirm how these two 'problems' are connected in reality on your board.

My other question is on the Hall sensor types: you indicate SS443A which are unipolar types so they react on normally to one dedicated magnetic pole, I suppose it is the South?  IF this is so, then how can you use the same type for reacting on the the opposite magnet pole?

Thanks, Gyula

PS More on later.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 03, 2011, 10:14:43 PM
Hi Laurent,

While the modifications in the Hall switch schematic are needed as I wrote above, there is still a problem I am going to explain.
When I showed you this reed switch controlled schematic:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10398.0;attach=51183 
the 10kOhm was indeed between the gate-source electrodes, to discharge the CGS capacitance of the MOSFETS at switch off, otherwise this capacitance would keep the 9V from the battery (in spite of the reed already went in the off position) for a longer time, the FETs could not switch off when you you want them).

Now that you use Hall switch, it does NOT have two independent switch points like a reed has,  only one, the so called output, designated with letter o in the SS443A data sheet. This means that you simply cannot use this Hall switch at the same place where the reed is shown. This is why I wrote and showed in an edited schematic how the 'correct' connections should be done.
SO the 'problem' with this modified schematic is that the Hall cannot help but control the FETs with an opposite duty cycle: when the Hall sensor switches on from the coming (South) magnetic pole, then its "o" output goes to the negative ground and switches OFF the FETs! And when the magnet leaves this Hall sensor, then its "o" output goes in fact into an open circuit BUT there is the 22k (or now 10k) which makes this output to be a positive 9V with respect to the Hall sensor's negative leg & with respect to the FETs source electrodes  i.e. the FETs switch ON!
So what is missing is a device which inverts the Hall output and this is the 2N2222 or any other NPN bipolar transistor as shown in Doug Konzen recent schematic I showed you the other day.

To make it more understandable for you, I modified Doug's schematic to
your present needs: I left out the MOSFET driver 4422 integrated circuit.
What is remained is one Hall device that drives a 2N2222 transistor and this transistor drives the MOSFETs. 

I hope now all is clear and sorry I have not realized this 'problem' yesterday.

I attached the modified schematic below.  OF course you can use the
4422 driver chip too, it will make the switch ON & OFF times very quick whenever the Hall is positioned correctly.  For the time being, I advise you to use only one Hall sensor, say, to switch at the positive peak sine wave and when it runs ok then you could connect a second Hall and position it so that it would control the FETs at the negative peaks of the induced sine waves.  The latter Hall could act also on a South pole like the first one but position it slightly offset from the first Hall.

If you wish to use driver chip like the 4422 as shown earlier, then I suggest buying 4421 instead, which is the inverting version of 4422, so that the 2N2222 transistor is not needed for inverting the output response of the Hall sensor. When you wish I can draw a new schematic with the 4421 too.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 03, 2011, 10:34:19 PM
Thanks Gyula for new schematic and detailed explanation

I will be ordering components for this setup, so could you please draw new schematic with the 4421 driver too.
And cay you specify which Hall sensor model is needed in this setup ?


Here I found some info about Hall Sensors:

Unipolar Hall-Effect Sensor:
Unipolar Hall-effect sensor ICs, often referred to as "unipolar switches," are operated by a positive magnetic field. A single magnet presenting a south polarity (positive) magnetic field of sufficient strength (magnetic flux density) will cause the device to switch to its on state. After it has been turned-on, the unipolar IC will remain turned-on until the magnetic field is removed and the IC reverts to its off state.
http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/unipolar/index.asp (http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/unipolar/index.asp)

Omnipolar Switch Hall-Effect:
Omnipolar Hall-effect sensor ICs, often referred to as "omnipolar switches," are a type of digital output Hall-effect latching switches that operate with either a strong positive or strong negative magnetic field. This simplifies application assembly because the operating magnet can be mounted with either pole toward the omnipolar device. A single magnet presenting a field of sufficient strength (magnetic flux density) will cause the device to switch to its on state. After it has been turned-on, the omnipolar IC will remain turned-on until the magnetic field is removed and the IC reverts to its off state. It latches the changed state and remains turned-off, until a magnetic field of sufficient strength is again presented.
http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/omnipolar/index.asp (http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/omnipolar/index.asp)

Latching Switch Hall-Effect:
Latching Hall-effect sensor ICs, often referred to as "latches," are digital output Hall-effect switches that latch output states. Latches are similar to bipolar switches, having a positive BOP and negative BRP, but provide tight control over switching behavior. Latches require both positive and negative magnetic fields to operate. A magnet presenting a south polarity (positive) magnetic field of sufficient strength (magnetic flux density) will cause the device to switch to its on state. When the device is turned-on it latches the state and remains turned-on, even if the magnetic field is removed, until a north polarity (negative) magnetic field of sufficient strength is presented. When the negative field is presented, the device is turned-off. It latches the changed state and remains turned-off, even if the magnetic field is removed, until a south polarity (positive) magnetic field of sufficient strength is again presented.
http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/latching/index.asp (http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/latching/index.asp)

Bipolar Switch Hall-Effect:
Bipolar sensor ICs are designed to be sensitive switches. (Note that the term "bipolar" refers to magnetic polarities, and is not related to bipolar semiconductor chip structures.) A bipolar switch has consistent hysteresis, but individual units have switchpoints that occur in either relatively more positive or more negative ranges. These devices find application where closely-spaced, alternating north and south poles are used, resulting in minimal required magnetic signal amplitude, ΔB, because the alternation of magnetic field polarity ensures switching, and the consistent hysteresis ensures periodicity.
http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/bipolar/index.asp (http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/bipolar/index.asp)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 03, 2011, 11:42:05 PM
Hi Gyula

Yes we crossed our post yesterday but no problem at all

Just for your question yes i use the exact described circuit in the video but i think that after your recent post it is OK

For the hall sensor i used the same SS443A but one is simply flipped 180 degree, so one is actuated by a south pole and the second by a North pole. It is why i get the posituve and negative shorted trace on the scope. The advantage of the 2 hall sensor is that i can tune each indepedantly exactly at the right place along the rotor.
Just to notice on my drawing in the video i try to represent the second flipped Hall sensor but i have inverted the + and 0 please correct it.

And now thank's for the schematic without the Mosfet driver i will also try it ASAP  ( don't worry i am not racing but simply very motivated)

Now and not least  i noticed with this experiment that the shorting of the coil produces  the same voltage INDEPENDENTLY of the rotor speed but DEPENDENTLY of the load resistance.

I mean if as per the video "test 5" i have 13 LED in parallel the shorting voltage produces  about 4.2 volts(on my setup of course) at all speed of the rotor.

That means that as per the same setup with the same load resistance,, from a  very low rotor speed up to very high rotor speed the PRODUCED SHORTED  VOLTAGE is constant ??

In the same config if i install a Neon bulb instead of the 13 LED in parallel , the produced shorted voltage will be about 90 volts at all speed.

So it iseems to be not necessary to have high rotor speed to get more PRODUCED SHORTED VOLTAGE (PSV), as if the basic setup (coilwinding , impedance , inductance, magnet gauss etc ) once in the SHORTING MODE  stays constant indepedantly of the speed.

And of course  i can not prevent me to think at the FERRIS wheel of John Bedini which spin very slowly . Is JB  using also a kind of shorting the coils in the device  ??


OK enough for tonight

Hope this helps

and good luck at all

Laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 04, 2011, 12:08:27 AM
HI Laurent,

I must finish again, now all I wish to say is that single white LED behaves exactly like it would be a 3.3V Zener diode (paralleling many of them slightly reduced this voltage towards 2.9-3V or so). I say this because this behavior is what makes you believe you wrote in red whenever you have the LEDs as the load.  Any time you do not have the LEDs in place but have other loads like a resistor the voltage level will be higher than 3-4V and will be RPM dependent. Tomorrow will comment some more.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: desa on March 04, 2011, 03:17:42 AM
@gyulasun 
Thank you on your circuit. It is something I was looking for long time. I am setting it up to make replication. One thing I am unsure so please clarify if possible. The charge battery SW1, can you please explain function of this switch. Is it simply on switch or the component of some sort as the timing function.
@ Laurant
Great videos. Keep it coming. It helps so much to see it. Some of us are more visually inclined. I would eventually like to integrate this circuit in my Windmill to bust capacity and eliminate heating problem in the coils.
David.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 04, 2011, 12:20:47 PM
---snip---
Bipolar Switch Hall-Effect:
Bipolar sensor ICs are designed to be sensitive switches. (Note that the term "bipolar" refers to magnetic polarities, and is not related to bipolar semiconductor chip structures.) A bipolar switch has consistent hysteresis, but individual units have switchpoints that occur in either relatively more positive or more negative ranges. These devices find application where closely-spaced, alternating north and south poles are used, resulting in minimal required magnetic signal amplitude, ΔB, because the alternation of magnetic field polarity ensures switching, and the consistent hysteresis ensures periodicity.
http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/bipolar/index.asp (http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/bipolar/index.asp)

Hi joefr,

Yes, it seems the best choice for alternatingly positioned magnets to use the bipolar type Hall sensor, that responds to both magnetic poles. I have not used such, only unipolar types. It is interesting Laurent finds the SS443A Hall sensor type reacts to the opposite pole from its back side, I never tried it with my types, lol  (I used Infineon TLE series TLE4905 unipolar in the past.)
If some type of Hall sensor operates correctly from its back side to the North  pole and also correctly from its front side to the South pole, then there is no need for a bipolar type Hall device.  (hmmm...)

Thanks, Gyula

EDIT:  Will draw schematic with a 4421, maybe tonight.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 04, 2011, 12:47:48 PM
@gyulasun 
Thank you on your circuit. It is something I was looking for long time. I am setting it up to make replication. One thing I am unsure so please clarify if possible. The charge battery SW1, can you please explain function of this switch. Is it simply on switch or the component of some sort as the timing function.
....

Hi David,

This is what I drew
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10398.0;attach=51183   and all the rest of the schematics (except my modification of yesterday) shown in the thread on coil shorting is drawn by Doug Konzen and he tested them too, I am not sure if he tested the switch SW1 you asking. He wrote at EVGRAY yahoo group that the timing for SW1 should be as follows:
When the puffer capacitor (shown as 3500uF/100V) is charged up via the diode bridge, SW1 should be open. And when there is no charging current coming from the bridge, SW1 is activated, its duty cycle needs experimenting.
So it sounds as SW1 is operated in between the spikes that are caused by the MOSFET switch, charging time for the puffer cap is to be considered too.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 04, 2011, 04:26:14 PM
Hi Gyula and all

i can not open your drawing the picture encounters problem at opening.

The Hall sensor TLE 4905 is unipolar and has low ma amp draw, but my dealer  run out of stock and i had to buy the cheaper but more consumer SS443A. Both of them work on the 2 sides (one side with a north pole and the other side on a south). Just for info the TLE 4935 is bipolar but turn on on a south pole and STAYS ON  until a north pole faces it. So it is not as a reed switch which  turn on and than cut off when a pole faces it (north or south). So for fast switching i would prefer unipolar Hall sensor. I don't know if it exists a hall sensor which works as a reed switch ?

For completing my previous post, i made 3 test . where i replace the led with a resistor

1- resistor of 100 ohm  = about 2 ma  and 5 volt peak pulsed (produced shorted voltage) at all speed
2- resistor of 220 ohm =  about 1+ ma and 10 volts peak pulsed (PSV) at all speed
3- resistor 1 kohm      =  about nothing (can not read on the meter) and 20 peak pulsed (PSV) at all speed

seems to be in adequation with my red writing.

Any idea ?

hope this helps.

Laurent



Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 04, 2011, 06:27:10 PM
Hi Laurent,

Which picture you cannot open? The link I gave to David in my reply #156
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10398.0;attach=51183
directly links to the picture what I uploaded in my earlier post here (it is the same):
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276291#msg276291

Ok on the SS443A unipolar sensor: once it works for both poles for you, no need for using another type.
Regarding the bipolar type sensors, as I wrote I have never used them, once you find they remain ON till the other pole comes, then they are not good for the task here. So no need to buy and use them.

Laurent, please consider the following:
if you used so far the two SS443A sensors which were driving the two FETs like in the schematic here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276272#msg276272 and assuming you build and use a correct schematic then it means that the two FETs are always switched ON, except for the moments when any one of the Halls switches them off! A crazy situation I tried to explain in my Reply #150 (the first in this page) and I mention this just to emphesize it again. This is why an inverting circuit (represented by a 2N2222 transistor) should be used between the Hall output and the FETs input, as I showed it in my modified schematic in my Reply #150 too.

So I ask whether your results with the 3 tests shown in your last post above were received with a transistor already between the Hall and the FETs or without a transistor? 

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on March 04, 2011, 11:42:51 PM
woopy,  Download the picture and rename the picture changing the extension from .jpg to .png and it will open (it's a .png file). 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 04, 2011, 11:50:59 PM

I will be ordering components for this setup, so could you please draw new schematic with the 4421 driver too.


Hi joefr,

I attached a driver circuit schematic with 4421 inverting type chip, it has the same pinout like the 4422.
Here is a data sheet to both chips, Page 7 is to be studied for advice on supply bypassing and grounding.
http://www.micrel.com/_PDF/mic4421.pdf

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 05, 2011, 12:03:12 AM
Hi gyula

Yes the picture of your reply  156 to David does not open for me.

The 3 test are made without the Transistor circuit. i use the circuit as per the  included pix, i also tried the modification you have proposed for this circuit but it did not work for me. I know that this circuit seems strange but it works as it is, i mean  with the connection between the 0 of the Hall sensor and the Source of the fets.  Doug seems to also use it in his schematic.
Finally i replicated the circuit with the transistor 2N2222A as per your recent schematic and got no succes, as if it does not short the coil at all . I will check all this tomorrow.

Anyway thanks for the input and good night

Laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 05, 2011, 12:29:34 AM
Hi Laurent,

Ok, I will study your schematic and comment it tomorrow.

Sorry for the picture problem, somehow it got renamed to extension jpg but it was a png file.  Now I fixed it to be a real jpg file and attached it here. It is the same schematic I showed you here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276291#msg276291 using the simplest reed control for the two FETs.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Qwert on March 05, 2011, 08:39:52 AM
Pulse Switching for High Energy Laser
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19820016542_1982016542.pdf
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 05, 2011, 11:59:23 AM
Hi gyula

Yes the picture of your reply  156 to David does not open for me.

The 3 test are made without the Transistor circuit. i use the circuit as per the  included pix, i also tried the modification you have proposed for this circuit but it did not work for me. I know that this circuit seems strange but it works as it is, i mean  with the connection between the 0 of the Hall sensor and the Source of the fets.  Doug seems to also use it in his schematic.
Finally i replicated the circuit with the transistor 2N2222A as per your recent schematic and got no succes, as if it does not short the coil at all . I will check all this tomorrow.

Anyway thanks for the input and good night

Laurent

Hi Laurent,

I studied the schematic you show above. Now I understand it and although it is a strange interpretation of using a Hall sensor, it is correct. In fact I never checked it critically because Doug wrote it worked (he drew it first) and I did not check how the Hall device is connected. 
The strange thing in it is that the positive supply pin of the Hall directly goes to the gates of the FETs, hence the positive 9V (or any supply voltage up to 18V or so) is also directly goes into the gates. And the output of the Hall sensor goes directly to the source of the FETs and the 10k resistor is between the gates and sources, i.e. between the positive supply pin and the output pin of the Hall. And there is no any connection between the negative point of the 9V supply and any other points of the FETs.  When the Hall sensor is activated by a coming magnet the output pin of the Hall simply connects the negative polarity of the 9V battery to the source electrodes of the FETs, hence the FETs can conduct and when the Hall switches off its output pin goes open circuit again and the FETs gate-source capacitance is disharged by the 10k resistor, this is how the FETs switch off.
Now it is clear that my earlier suggestion with the gray and blue wires in this link is wrong: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276272#msg276272  and very sorry for not giving a deeper understanding of your (i.e. Doug) schematic on the Hall connections EARLIER.
(Normally the positive pin of a Hall sensor goes to the gates of the FETs via a resistor (of 5k-10k-22KOhm) and never directly, and normally the negative pin of a Hall goes directly to the sources of the FETs, and normally the output pin of a Hall goes directly to the gates to control them.)

Regarding the 2N2222 circuit, if it still does not work for you, I suggest some measurements with a voltmeter when the 9V battery is connected but there is no any magnet near any of the Hall sensors. In this situation (I refer to the schematic here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276614#msg276614 ) please measure the voltage directly between the base and emmitter of the 2N2222: it should show any value between 0.62 to 0.7V, i.e. a normal forward bias for a Silicon transistor. (DC voltmeter positive probe goes to the base, negative probe goes to the emitter)
And then please measure also the voltage between the collector and emitter of the 2N2222: it should be under 0.2V i.e. the saturation voltage (Vsat) of the transistor. (DC voltmeter positive probe goes to the collector, negative probe goes to the emitter)
Now if these two voltages are ok, then please put a magnet with correct pole near to one of the Hall sensors and check whether the collector-emitter voltage of the earlier 0.2V changes immediately to the 9V battery voltage? If not, there is something wrong: either connection problems, wrong wire places, wrong transistor, wrong Hall device etc. And then repeat the same test with the other magnet pole for the other Hall sensor, it should cause the same changes in the voltages as the previous pole did.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 06, 2011, 09:54:11 PM
Hi Gyula

thanks for input

now we are OK on the basic circuit. Just for info i tried the same circuit with only 1 FET and it doesn 't give good results.

So now i am trying to test different coils and core to see if i can increase the "produced shortage voltage" and the spectrum seems to be really large. as each system produces very different results . But so far the constant direction remains.
 For a given system, the shorted pulsed  produced voltage stays constant at all rotor speed.
 So to be very clear ,if the speed of the rotor increases, you get more pulses of the same voltage, but never  a higher voltage.

OK it is only the beginning and perhaps tomorrow will bring better ideas

Good luck at all

Laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 06, 2011, 09:54:13 PM
This is quite old technology for a few of us although some of you have only just started to use it. Kone has been shorting coils on his generators for a few years now and advancing to multiple shorts per sine wave PEAKS only. For each time you hit the coil peak sine wave the power is amplified again and again reaching hundreds of volts from what would normally be just a few volts without shorting. Its a hammer on the bell!

To do this properly requires an AVR/ Arduino/PIC  micro processor to sample the incoming wave form then apply 5 to 100 shorts each lasting just a couple of uS's right on TOP of the sine starting 2 degrees BTDC and ending 2 degrees ATDC creates incredible high power and high frequency harmonics.

The "poor mans" version is to use 555's in order of Zero Point Schmitt trigger, Sine wave peak delay, Window Width generator, Coil shorting Spike Astable running usually at least 20 to 100 times faster than carrier the o/p goes into coil shorting IGBT's rated at least 1500v and very low turn on ohms. This type of setup with a large heavy coils should generate hundreds of watts.

This modulates the carrier and these harmonics can then be pulled off using series resonance tuned RF alike demodulator power stages more advanced then just adding a cap and hoping for the best. Requires RF tuning and matching skills to capture this properly without wasting it.

Its the basis for Ismael Aviso MEG technology once you get up to shorting coils of several thousands of volts and dumping into HV oil caps.

BTW try adding neo magnets in 5 to 1 ratio as Magnacoaster and drive only at the Bloch Wall. Now you have solid state generator and dump those reed switches and halls no longer required.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 06, 2011, 10:37:08 PM
Hi Laurent,

With only using one FET the shorting cannot work because when the FET is supposed to be in the OFF state, its inherent body diode between the drain-source electrodes is still there and just clamps the AC half wave which is with forward voltage polarity to it, ok? This is why two FETs are used in series opposing direction with respect to the body diodes: whenever one of the diodes would be forward biased by the AC waveform, the other body diode would surely be with the reverse polarity to that AC waveform, hence no current can flow when the FETs should be in the OFF state.

Ok on your finding the voltage stays constant regardless of the rpm. I believe, for the time being, you do not have to bother with this, it is not sure at all whether this is going to be a drawback.

Maybe using several generator coils around the rotor is one way to increase output if you can find coil positions where the drag is the smallest like Romero hit on such position + reed switch position. It would be interesting to see in his shown setup whether using some more pick-up coils with their own reed switches, the input current would have remained also unchanged? 
In your case first I think a coil position ought to be found where the drag is at a minimum and you use the two FET shorting.  One thing I do not get with your latest shown setup is why you did not receive sine wave output when the FETs are OFF?  Or you receive it but just did not show it? You have received so nice sine wave output shown in your earlier videos and also you showed the shorting at the wave peaks caused 3 times as high spikes than the sine wave was. This is what you may wish to achive first with the two FET shortings, instead of the reed switch shortings.

MAybe using a coil with higher number of turns and making taps on it can give you more flexibility.  I know the cross over air core coils are a bit expensive to buy, maybe you have some left from the Ossie motor tests? (if I recall correctly, that is... :) ) 
By the way you may wish to insert some ferrite rod piece into an air core coil available from your junk box to increase output voltage so that you should not increase the number of turns which would increase copper loss. No problem for the cogging it will cause in a single coil case, later using some more coils also with cores the cogging can be minimized.

Thanks,  Gyula



Hi Gyula

thanks for input

now we are OK on the basic circuit. Just for info i tried the same circuit with only 1 FET and it doesn 't give good results.

So now i am trying to test different coils and core to see if i can increase the "produced shortage voltage" and the spectrum seems to be really large. as each system produces very different results . But so far the constant direction remains.
 For a given system, the shorted pulsed  produced voltage stays constant at all rotor speed.
 So to be very clear ,if the speed of the rotor increases, you get more pulses of the same voltage, but never  a higher voltage.

OK it is only the beginning and perhaps tomorrow will bring better ideas

Good luck at all

Laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 06, 2011, 11:10:58 PM
This is how the sinewave looks with reed and 0.47uf for the shorting.
I have more coils now and still the system remains not affected even if I leave all coils shorted.
The system charges the running battery but still not good enough to run from a capacitor.
I can get the system to accelerate when shorting the coils too.The arrangement of the coils arround the rotor is very important too.
Now I collect the power from all coils in a capacitor and dump it back to the battery once for every revolution.
Another small discovery is that if I use a 240/12v transformer and collect the power from the MOT fan coils to the 240v side and use the 12 volt side with a rectifier  to charge the battery it charges better than damping higher voltage and low amperage.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 06, 2011, 11:13:11 PM
Hi Bolt

I am ready for take off ,simply send me the soft or proposal and we go
 Thank's

Hi guyla

 i am trying all the stuff i have , and has i sayd all works but at different ENERGY INPUT  PRICE . But what disturb me is that DOUG sayd that with the HIGH BYPASS AC cap it should decrease the LENZ effect what i can not detect at this point of my research. Any idea ?

Good night

Laurent

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 06, 2011, 11:18:19 PM

Hi  Romero

Bravo

and of course i am sure you will produce a video of this

and thanks

Laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 06, 2011, 11:25:14 PM

... all works but at different ENERGY INPUT  PRICE . But what disturb me is that DOUG sayd that with the HIGH BYPASS AC cap it should decrease the LENZ effect what i can not detect at this point of my research. Any idea ?
...

Well, I am afraid you have to ask Doug on that details, sorry. In theory it sounds good that you use only the spikes energy and 'suppress' most of the generated sine wave coming from the coil.
Also maybe Romero could also comment whether he found a position for the coil and the reed where there was a minimal drag, first without the series capacitor, then with no drag with the series cap as this latter result turns out from his measurement video.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 06, 2011, 11:43:22 PM
Hi Romero,

Thanks for the update, very good progress indeed. I wonder if your other coils are similar to the the one taken from the fan motor?
Also, when you found the output from the coils is still not enough to run from a capacitor then you had shorting on BOTH sine wave peaks or only on a single single peak like in the scope shot?
Good idea to use the 240V/12V transformer for reducing the output voltage, this inherently does a kind of impedance matching. A transformer with several secondary coils would be even better of course. You would have to find the best position for the output coils to maintain an induced voltage phase coherence so that the individual voltage amplitudes would not reduce each other too much.
Final 'nagging' for now:  the best cap value is the 0.47uF you still use? If yes, then probably you hit on the correct one that 'fits' to your coil(s).

Thanks,  Gyula

This is how the sinewave looks with reed and 0.47uf for the shorting.
I have more coils now and still the system remains not affected even if I leave all coils shorted.
The system charges the running battery but still not good enough to run from a capacitor.
I can get the system to accelerate when shorting the coils too.The arrangement of the coils arround the rotor is very important too.
Now I collect the power from all coils in a capacitor and dump it back to the battery once for every revolution.
Another small discovery is that if I use a 240/12v transformer and collect the power from the MOT fan coils to the 240v side and use the 12 volt side with a rectifier  to charge the battery it charges better than damping higher voltage and low amperage.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 06, 2011, 11:48:47 PM
When I position the coil I always have it shorted then move it to the position where looks that the system is not affected at all.The reed position is adjusted after the coil is in place and watching the oscope to get the short closer to the wave peak.
Having 2 reed switches close to each other will give more shorts resulting more power.
I will post another video soon but now testing all different ideeas it looks like a mess and is difficult to explain what is there.
I am also trying with different type of coil, thicker wire, but for that the reed is not good enough, the spark produced is too much and damages the reed in few seconds.
The solid state circuit to do the  shorting recomended by Doug is not working properly now.I have tried all circuits found and presented here.
Just having the circuit connected without having the hall closer to the rotor will increase the power creating something like a parallel sine wave but not spikes as the reed does.
Trying a solid state AC relay with only the 240v side connected will increase the power but no spikes.
The voltage jumps from arround 40v without anything connected to the coil, just the meter, it goes to arround 72v just by connecting the 240v terminals from the SS Relay. 
Loking at the oscope I can see that when adding the SS Relay I get a parallel sinewave, this is strange for me at this moment.
This is the effect I was talking about in a previous post, PARALLEL SINE WAVE.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 07, 2011, 12:09:58 AM
Can you show a scope shot of the 'parallel' sinewave?

MAybe you have one of the FETs damaged in the meantime and now you find the shorting with them is not ok? (I apologize for asking this, lol)

It is intersting that if you used the two FETs with the reed switch controlling their gate-source from a 9V (or 12V) separate battery, you still have not had good results? I mean this circuit:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276701#msg276701

Because Doug wrote last October or November he had success with that circuit as a substitution for the direct reed shorting and now he moved to the FET driver chip with Hall sensor control to get rid fully of the reed.

A solid state AC relay normally have several Ohms ON resistance unless you have a more expensive type, if yes, perhaps this explain the unfavorable result with it?  Doug emphesized the ON resistance of the switch should be the minimum possible.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 07, 2011, 12:51:10 AM
@gyulasun
Picture with the wave when the SS AC Relay is connected.When nothing connected I get a normal single line sinewave.The voltage is almost double when the AC SS relay is connected.As I said before, I connect only the 240v side nothing on the input of the relay.I have more than one AC SS Relays and all are doing the same, normaly the system should not do anything without input to the relay.
Picture with the both relays I use, AC for shorting and DC to dump the charge from the capacitor, once for every rotation.
I hope there are some ather people to test what I am saying, I am very courious to see...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: IotaYodi on March 07, 2011, 01:07:47 AM
Quote
Loking at the oscope I can see that when adding the SS Relay I get a parallel sinewave
Dont know if this applys to your problem but I thought Id throw it out.

The sum of multiple phasors produces another phasor. That is because the sum of sine waves with the same frequency is also a sine wave with that frequency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hartiberlin on March 07, 2011, 01:14:53 AM
hi All,
great results.

If you have problems with reed relays burning up,
try to put 2 or more in SERIES.

This way more  switches open and this will give a faster dI/dt
current change and thus also higher induction voltages and will
distribute the spark across multiple reed relays, so the sparking
on one reed relay might be reduced.

Good luck.

P.S. Why are you all just trying to do it at the sine peak ?
You can just chop the current all the time, this will give much
more spikes and does not need any synchronisation.


Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 07, 2011, 01:33:21 AM
hi All,
great results.

If you have problems with reed relays burning up,
try to put 2 or more in SERIES.

This way more  switches open and this will give a faster dI/dt
current change and thus also higher induction voltages and will
distribute the spark across multiple reed relays, so the sparking
on one reed relay might be reduced.

Good luck.

P.S. Why are you all just trying to do it at the sine peak ?
You can just chop the current all the time, this will give much
more spikes and does not need any synchronisation.


Regards, Stefan.
Personally I do the shorting at the sine peak just because I can get the maximum power, but you are right, I have tested with 3 reed switches positioned differently and I do get more spikes.
The reed switching is good enough for testing only but for a long lasting device must use solid state components.
I have also tried to short the wave all the way,multiple times, positive and negative using a 555  driver and i've got nice results.
I am working on a different setup too where one coil(few turns) is shorting the main coil and I get power from it plus extra flux to accelerate the rotor. Syncronising the 2 coils is a very important factor.
I will talk about this ideea once I finish the other things on my list.
I am close to have it running just with a capacitor, time is the only problem I have... but soon
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 07, 2011, 01:43:08 AM
This is how the sinewave looks with reed and 0.47uf for the shorting.
I have more coils now and still the system remains not affected even if I leave all coils shorted.
The system charges the running battery but still not good enough to run from a capacitor.
I can get the system to accelerate when shorting the coils too.The arrangement of the coils arround the rotor is very important too.
Now I collect the power from all coils in a capacitor and dump it back to the battery once for every revolution.
Another small discovery is that if I use a 240/12v transformer and collect the power from the MOT fan coils to the 240v side and use the 12 volt side with a rectifier  to charge the battery it charges better than damping higher voltage and low amperage.

You are a long way from looping yet and i doubt you can do this with a simple set up. If you read my posts I have been involved with this coil shorting now for quite some time and understand many of the pitfalls and how to vastly improve system gains.

When dumping load caps do not allow them to drop below 61.8% of charge capacity. This is a Fibonacci ratio and very important in nature and electronics. You will find from 61.8% to 100% will charge recover a lot quicker.

You use of reverse transformer is for impedance matching. When you get into this in more detail you MUST treat everything with the eyes of an RF engineer. Series caps provides some degree of high pass filter but usually requires Pi Tank matching and tuning into a load for max power transfer. The 0.47uF cap will also need to be tuned into different coil setups.  The aim here is to increase JUST large enough to start seeing some lugging then back off to a smaller size then match everything else after this into the load.

 When you know the value of your dump cap in uF or Farads you can calculate a start voltage and end voltage versus time scoped and calculate the joules you have recovered in your dump cap. Its the best way of finding out if you circuit is heading towards OU long before you think about looping.

BTW soon when you start adding larger coils the Radiant Energy will create fuse your reeds shut so then you will have to use the 2 fets shorting circuit.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 07, 2011, 01:55:16 AM
When I position the coil I always have it shorted then move it to the position where looks that the system is not affected at all.The reed position is adjusted after the coil is in place and watching the oscope to get the short closer to the wave peak.
Having 2 reed switches close to each other will give more shorts resulting more power.
I will post another video soon but now testing all different ideeas it looks like a mess and is difficult to explain what is there.
I am also trying with different type of coil, thicker wire, but for that the reed is not good enough, the spark produced is too much and damages the reed in few seconds.
The solid state circuit to do the  shorting recomended by Doug is not working properly now.I have tried all circuits found and presented here.
Just having the circuit connected without having the hall closer to the rotor will increase the power creating something like a parallel sine wave but not spikes as the reed does.
Trying a solid state AC relay with only the 240v side connected will increase the power but no spikes.
The voltage jumps from arround 40v without anything connected to the coil, just the meter, it goes to arround 72v just by connecting the 240v terminals from the SS Relay. 
Loking at the oscope I can see that when adding the SS Relay I get a parallel sinewave, this is strange for me at this moment.
This is the effect I was talking about in a previous post, PARALLEL SINE WAVE.

As per my posts please read them as i know your problems and it will save you DAYS or  MONTHS of heart ache! As explained already i knew you was going to reach a point where your reed switches fuse together. Radiant Energy is very destructive in this form and you notice a very strange looking arc and color!

IMPORTANT you can not use SS AC relays they are basically triacs and only switch on and off at zero point crossing. You need DC solid state BUT most  are slow and have snubbers which slow down gate speed as usually switching within 5mS is not normally a requirement for DC loads.

Multiple shorting at sine wave peaks adds more power. Do this 5 times or 20 or even 100 times on top of the sine then you will see a MASSIVE amount of highly disruptive power its very hard to control. For this to work properly you must use fast inverter switch IGBT's driven by an AVR is best with each shorting spike down to uS's.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 07, 2011, 02:05:29 AM
Hi Bolt

I am ready for take off ,simply send me the soft or proposal and we go
 Thank's

Hi guyla

 i am trying all the stuff i have , and has i sayd all works but at different ENERGY INPUT  PRICE . But what disturb me is that DOUG sayd that with the HIGH BYPASS AC cap it should decrease the LENZ effect what i can not detect at this point of my research. Any idea ?

Good night

Laurent

There is no problem having a very slight lugging so it is just perceptible to each coil. This makes sure you are collecting as much power as possible from the coil shorts where the high pass filter is just starting to edge the bandwidth down into the carrier frequency.  Collectively you may have a 10 coil generator each collecting 50 watts each. Now you have 500 watts from the coils. The total i/p maybe 100 watts so you have a 400 watt OU device. COP 4 is typical of these systems and indeed I understand that Kone can now build them at COP 8 and higher when you tweak everything to a fine art.

I personally don't really like mechanical generators. EVERYTHING you learn here about shorting coils can apply to solid state and yes its VERY close to Magnacoaster!

If you can program then you already know what is required here to short the sine wave peaks. I don't have any code to give. Use a hard interrupt as wave sampler. Either use a PD or opto as a sine sniffer and set a delay timer to put you on top of the sine or JUST BTDC then send pulses out on pin 5 or whatever to the shorting pair fets. That's it in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 07, 2011, 02:13:34 AM
@bolt
Thank you for your tips.
I am only hopping to get it running without a battery as everyone here, I know is not easy task
I am not relying only on the shorting of the coils to get it self powered.
One other important factor here is also the mass of the rotor and the Hope is the last that goes.
It is already running from a capacitor and loses the power after about a minute but with small improvements everyday I can slowly increase that time, still I a hopping...
Regarding the SS AC Relay I am surprised to get that voltage increase without any signal applied to it, just the terminals connected to the coil.I am not using it now in my setup, I have tried it and saw that voltage increase and the wave changed..
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 07, 2011, 02:21:46 AM
Also, when you found the output from the coils is still not enough to run from a capacitor then you had shorting on BOTH sine wave peaks or only on a single single peak like in the scope shot?
Thanks,  Gyula

Oh yes i forget you can short both side of the sine wave for even more power. Design gets pretty complex though because now all your electronic switching must be floating as no common ground. Use 2 separate tuned series caps thru a Pi Tank and you have to mix the two signals using a balun alike RF mixer to down convert impedance into dump cap via the FWBR. Please don't just try and stuff them together down one cap you will waste all your hard work and effort.

 The circuit will be balanced very much like 300 ohm feeder amplifiers if you want the best possible power transfer.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 07, 2011, 02:38:23 AM
@bolt
Thank you for your tips.
I am only hopping to get it running without a battery as everyone here, I know is not easy task
I am not relying only on the shorting of the coils to get it self powered.
One other important factor here is also the mass of the rotor and the Hope is the last that goes.
It is already running from a capacitor and loses the power after about a minute but with small improvements everyday I can slowly increase that time, still I a hopping...
Regarding the SS AC Relay I am surprised to get that voltage increase without any signal applied to it, just the terminals connected to the coil.I am not using it now in my setup, I have tried it and saw that voltage increase and the wave changed..

You are doing very well and learning fast. Im not knocking you for that as you have now proven to everyone that coil shorting is a very valid method but requires some refinement in the art to make it work ready for looping. I seen others go through the very same growing pains. If i can help get you there faster Im sure that's a good thing!

The capacitor is holding up well which means you need some more shorts, a bit more tuning and you will have a looper.  BTW the mass doesn't come into it in fact a small device has a much higher ratio of friction and losses compared to a large machine. For these generators to make serious power bigger is better. Of course eventually IMO solid state is the way to go which is why magnacoaster and kapadanze plus others all started with mechanical OU generators and now you know about coil shorting then go solid state from what you will learn.

There is no difference from a wheel going around with a magnet on it passing a coil OR have a coil with a magnet beside it and pulse it stationary. Only provision the trigger coils sits over the Bloch Wall so the coil collapse when sine shorted cuts the magnetic lines of force. The result is the same.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 07, 2011, 04:47:02 PM
Hi guys,

I'm working on shorting coils as well. I started on a small bedini 3 coiler which I modified from 3 to 6 magnets (higher frequency for less work) and made it hall triggered. I then tried the conehead mosfet arrangement with two more halls which works well, although I run the hall signal through a schmitt-trigger gate to invert the signal. I also tried using the "shorting signal" to trigger a 555 timer circuit where I can adjust the duty cycle from 0 to 100% besides frequency, so that for one hall impulse I would get many shortings thanks to the 555. The drive circuits and mosfet have a very fast rise fall time (20-50 nS range..) so it should be quite close to a mecanical switch.

For now I don't have more out than in, btw forgot to mention that the collecting cap (50uF)gets pulsed at a lower frequency into a 240/110V - 12V step down transformer, then through a FWBR and to a load + low voltage cap.

I've put 4 generator coils in series for a total of about 150V which then gets shorted and give spikes to almost 1000V. But somehow pulsing more then once per peak didn't give a greater result, I got many smaller pulses or one big, but the result is about the same, as I can monitor that from the collecting cap voltage since it gets discharged from the step down circuit at a constant rate. These were generator coils with many windings and small gauge.

Since I can't fit bigger coils into that frame I decided to go solid state and simulate the "motor" with a tank circuit, coil and cap in parallel driven by 555 timer and fet as a "motor coil" with a very large generator coil sitting on top of it which then gets shorted in same manner. Still working on that trying different generator coils. Bifilar coils connected in series give a huge ringing (many vibrations that last a long time) but less voltage. I guess it's also about finding the right coil, but so far I think the higher the sine voltage the better? I have to modify the circuit to try many shortings per peak since it's solid state, so no hall. I'll let you knowhow it goes...

regards,
Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 07, 2011, 07:10:41 PM
Hi Romero,

Thanks for the scope shot on the parallel waves. I think your sentence: "The voltage is almost double when the AC SS relay is connected." is the possible explanation in that the SSR includes a snubber circuit across its output side (embedded in the body). Normally a snubber circuit for 50-60Hz mains frequency operation in such SSRs includes a series RC circuit, connected inside in parallel with the output of the SSR. The possible range is for R=120-200 Ohm and for C=47-100nF or around that range and I think you create a near resonance situation when you connect the SSR output to the coil.
You may check this if you have some similar value capacitor at hand (no need for the series R) and connect some caps (one at a time) in parallel with the coil and watch how the waveform amplitude changes, ok? 
Also, when you have the SSR connected in parallel with the coil, watch the output waveform and slow down the rotor mechanically because then you can 'tune' the created frequency which either sweeps through resonance or gets further away from it, you will see it from the amplitude change (highest amplitude is at resonance of course). You can do this 'tuning' when you connect capacitor(s) across the coil of course.

When you have done these tests please write the results.

Would you reflect to my yesterdays question on your shorting also the negative peaks of the sinewave when you described your running from capacitor?

Thanks, Gyula


@gyulasun
Picture with the wave when the SS AC Relay is connected.When nothing connected I get a normal single line sinewave.The voltage is almost double when the AC SS relay is connected.As I said before, I connect only the 240v side nothing on the input of the relay.I have more than one AC SS Relays and all are doing the same, normaly the system should not do anything without input to the relay.
Picture with the both relays I use, AC for shorting and DC to dump the charge from the capacitor, once for every rotation.
I hope there are some ather people to test what I am saying, I am very courious to see...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 08, 2011, 02:18:47 AM
@gyulasun
I was using the positive and negative wave peak for shorting when I tried to run from the capacitor only.
I have also tried what you suggested with the AC SS Relay and at any speed or with different capacitors connected as you suggested the parallel wave is close to the main one and I think that it is normal to be like that.
If I change the value of the capacitor in series with the AC relay then I get the parallel wave at different position or even shifted, I am sure is about resonance.
I have got the best results shorting the wave all the way, multiple times using a 555 circuit and SS DC Relay.
Today I am too tired to do more testing and pictures but I will post more results soon.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 08, 2011, 03:54:19 PM
Keep shorts top of sine where Voltage node is max and current node is tuned 90 degrees lagging. Use fets or IGBTS for shorting don't use those  SS DC relays they are designed to turn off and on slowly using snubber. Kone and others did all this YEARS ago.

AC SS relays are a 100% no no! They will only switch off the zero points which creates a secondary echo sine wave.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Mark69 on March 08, 2011, 04:35:39 PM
will the shorting cause the caps to eventually fail?  Understanding solid state is the way to go but will these components wear out as well?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 08, 2011, 05:25:11 PM
I've been going through the posts on this thread and would like to give my two cents on a few things I've noticed. Someone wrote you need N-S arrangement magnets to get a sine wave, well clearly he's never put a scope on a coil pulsed by an all N rotor  ;).

A few people seem to confuse the flyback kick when a charged coil is let loose with what is being discussed here.

Romerouk, you said that you get acceleration when you short the coil through most of the cycle, I get the same when I do that. This is "normal" with an open coil core, This is actually what the Kromrey generator principle is based on. You wouldn't get this result with a core closed on itself like all traditional transformer cores... I don't know if this is what we want in this application though, as Bolt pointed out.

Anyway, keep up the good work! ;D

regards,
Mario


Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 08, 2011, 06:03:53 PM
Bolt:

Romero described how he connects the SS relay to the coil and also see his post here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276868#msg276868

I mention this because below your text means as if Romero had used the SS relay for coil shorting. He wrote he used the output side of the AC SS  parallel with the coil (and he did the shorting with one or two reeds) and he did not control the AC SS at all at its input pins.
And he used the DC SS to discharge the puffer capacitor once during one revolution. It surely does this task nicely. See here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276862#msg276862

I thought this needs to be clarified so that other readers who are not fully aware of the exact setup should not get wrong info.

Gyula

Keep shorts top of sine where Voltage node is max and current node is tuned 90 degrees lagging. Use fets or IGBTS for shorting don't use those  SS DC relays they are designed to turn off and on slowly using snubber. Kone and others did all this YEARS ago.

AC SS relays are a 100% no no! They will only switch off the zero points which creates a secondary echo sine wave.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on March 08, 2011, 06:43:23 PM
Hi All,

If you know your base frequency then you can divide it into quarters to find the frequency that will cut the peaks. So if your base frequency is 60hz, 60hz*4=240hz. 240hz will cut the 60hz signal 4 times 2 at the zero points and 2 at the +/- peaks. You could go 2 then just shift the phase also. So if you spike at 240hz to cascade at that peak it would be at 240hz*4hz=960hz. It will take a lot of phase tweaking or some kind of DSP chip to get it accurate at the next cascade.

Here is a example using circuit simulator (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/) :

Quote
$ 1 5.0E-6 27.727228452313398 50 5.0 50
159 320 432 320 304 0 20.0 1.0E10
T 224 304 320 432 0 2.0 1.0 -4.142115187299905 3.975745281449844 0.999
w 224 432 144 432 0
v 144 304 144 432 0 1 60.0 120.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
R 352 240 352 192 0 5 240.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 352 240 352 368 0
w 352 368 336 368 0
w 320 304 400 304 0
w 320 432 400 432 0
r 400 304 400 432 0 200.0
w 144 304 224 304 0
o 9 64 0 35 1280.0 6.4 0 -1

Doesn't have to be a sine wave input, a square wave signal will also work in the sim.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 08, 2011, 06:58:36 PM
will the shorting cause the caps to eventually fail?  Understanding solid state is the way to go but will these components wear out as well?

Eventually most things wear out. TV sets usually die after 10-15 years after the electrolytic caps dry out and fail and the solder ages causing dry joints especially around HV points.  For high power pulse system then you need AC motor run oil caps is the best thing to use.

Are you that worried for Solid State generator only lasting 15 years before it needs a service?  A flimsy homebuilt generator with revolving wheels and magnets lucky if it lasts 15 days! LOL
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 08, 2011, 07:18:09 PM
I never thought to use the Sim for shorting. Glad it works.  =]

But there is something I was afraid of. I learned it while experimenting with an AV plug setup.

I found that with the AV plug, that the input power increased when loading the cap charged by the av plug.  And we also have that here.

I copied your Sim code and changed the switch freq to 2400hz. 10 times faster, could be more but the constant switching recommended by Stefan is why I tried.  ;]

I made a change to the active switch also. If you edit it, they start at 20ohm on res. ;]

I also added a scope shot of the input power. The scope may not show up when imported, as it didnt with the above code. Right click on the resistor and add scope, and right click on the input supply and add scope.  Right click on the power in scope shot and mark it for power consumpsion and negative peak readings to know pos and neg peaks.

The spdt switch turnes the switching off to compare.  We get more out, but we suffer more in also.
That was what I was afraid of. =[

Get the circuit sim at falstad.com

here is my code....

$ 1 5.0E-6 27.727228452313398 50 5.0 50
159 384 352 384 224 0 0.1 1.0E10
T 288 224 384 352 0 2.0 1.0 -0.362521623216979 0.22798362054968843 0.999
w 288 352 208 352 0
v 208 224 208 352 0 1 60.0 120.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
R 400 160 400 112 0 5 2400.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 416 288 400 288 0
w 384 224 464 224 0
w 384 352 464 352 0
r 464 224 464 352 0 200.0
w 208 224 288 224 0
w 416 288 416 208 0
S 416 208 416 160 0 1 false 0
o 8 64 0 35 598.6310706507378 2.993155353253689 0 -1
o 3 64 1 291 640.0 9.765625E-5 1 -1


Mags

Edit   sorry for the nasty screen shot   Im at lunch  will repost later if anyone wants to see it more clearly. ;]    The switch was off for the first half of the scope shot and on for the second. You can see the power rise with multi pulsing, but power in also climbs. Not to say this has anything to do with using motor gen as input if there is no drag. ;]
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 08, 2011, 07:28:56 PM
Kone and others did all this YEARS ago.


Not so. Kone started this in the spring of last year with some crude mechanical switching. He has progressed to the point of FET switching but is far from multiple switching at this time.

His published fet switching directly from the hall device is not good engineering. His claims are not repeatable by woopy or myself.

Ron


Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 08, 2011, 07:52:51 PM
SIM's are good i published plenty but remember they can not show Radiant Energy effects and any attempt for a simple math program to show a real gain creates an "impossible" divide by zero error and it crashes.

In practice keep the HF shorts on the sine peaks prevents i/p power lugging.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 08, 2011, 08:17:22 PM
I don't know if everyone saw this new sim

From user Haither at  here   http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10467.msg276677#new
The first sentence says it all
Quote:

Hi,
since the new algorithm of Prof. Turtur came out which promised the possibility to extract energy from the vacuum with simple parts i saw the need to make an easy-to-use software in which every user could enter their values for coil, magnet and capacitor and let the software determine the energy output
----------------------
As an Addendum
MarkSnoswell
said there may be "issues"

Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 08, 2011, 09:33:11 PM
Guys, when I chop the hall signal with the 555 circuit to get more shortings per sine peak the output decreases. I mean, from what I see one big bang per peak gives more output than many shorts per peak, this I see from what I collect in the output cap. Of course I've tried sweeping the frequency and duty cycle of the 555, even to match the ringing frequency of the coil, still no luck.
Anyone else getting the same?

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 08, 2011, 10:44:30 PM
Hi Mario,

Would you mind showing your 555 schematic and one or two pictures of your setup to those members here with building ability.
 I wonder what is the width of your chopping pulse and if it is also adjustable which width gives the highest output in the output capacitor.

Thanks for reporting your findings.

Gyula

PS if you do not wish to show your schematic, that is also fine of course.

Guys, when I chop the hall signal with the 555 circuit to get more shortings per sine peak the output decreases. I mean, from what I see one big bang per peak gives more output than many shorts per peak, this I see from what I collect in the output cap. Of course I've tried sweeping the frequency and duty cycle of the 555, even to match the ringing frequency of the coil, still no luck.
Anyone else getting the same?

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 08, 2011, 11:29:38 PM
Hi Gyula,

right now I don't have the whole circuit on paper like it is right now, but I've attached the basic schematic of the 555 circuit I've been using over the last  few years for many solid state experiments.
I said hall but right now I went from the wheel to solid state so I'm using one 555 circuit to drive the bottom coil (attached pic) at resonance with a cap to simulate the rotating magnet, it has 100 feet og 18AWG wire. On top of that is the big coil which I filled up with 23AWG I believe. Both cores are ferrite.
Since the 555 signal is hitting the power coil at sine peak for resonance I can use the same signal to drive the two mosfets that short the generator coil, convenient right? ;D
To chop that signal I send it to the trigger input of a second 555 circuit and send this signal to the fet driver. You asked about the width, I went from a few % (very narrow) to 100% duty cycle which is like just using the first main pulse. Whatever I do, the output cap has more voltage with just the one main pulse, when I start chopping, whatever frequency, output gets lower. I have more spikes but lower amplitude.

I use a third 555 circuit fed from a separate supply to discharge the cap to the little 240/110 - 12V toroid transformer.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 08, 2011, 11:33:48 PM
Ooops sorry, the size of the pictures was way too high, are you having trouble watching them?

I just resized and reuploaded them...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 08, 2011, 11:39:28 PM
Hi all

wow the sim seems to be promising with the continuously shorting.

I will perhaps try with my signal generator to see what i can do.

For info in can get a nice sine trace with a STINGO from Sucahyo.

 But my question is.    is it necessary to use a solid state oscillator in order to produce a nice sine wave and than try to to short it to get more power out.?

What i try to test is  can we decrease the Lenz effect on a generator by shorting coil


OK and for tonight i made a totally off topic test to refresh my mind, but perhaos interesting to some of you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-38WBsPcdyk

Good luck at all

Laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 09, 2011, 02:01:44 AM
Ok gyus, lets quit playing ;)

My testrig is small very low power pulse motor.

Currents status is:
INPUT: 6.55V 15mA = 0.1W
OUTPUT: 0.024W (efficent up to 160V, maximal usable output at 250V)
BEST EFFICENCY: 24%

It must be said that output seems to have zero effect on the input and rotor speed. So it is only 24% but it's totally free. The number is carefully calculated and tested over and over and I found it very good for such low powered mechanical design made from crap lying around. I could extract much more in addition to that 24% from that motor-generator when using additional regular generator coils that put some load on the rotor. But this is not the point, point is the timeline of shorting process:

0ms unused generator pulse (2ms)
2ms drive pulse from battery* (6ms)
8ms backspike (0.1ms)
8.1ms resonant ringing (~6ms)

*yes, this means I short the drive coil, not separate gen coil

Explained this means that first starts the sine wave from natural generation from approaching magnet. Then I connect the battery for 6ms, this drives the disc. After disconnecting the battery there is sparking at the reed, duration is only 0.1ms, most of the energy gets dissipated because of too much microsparking. This can be seen on the rectified shot - no usable energy in backspike - it just gets radiated all over the place. Then resonant ringing kicks in, excited by sparking. Duration is same as drive pulse. And when viewing rectifier and cap shots under load we see that cap charging duration for given load is around 0.4ms.
I have no reference point to sync all the shots but it is clear that cap is being charged only by resonant ringing.
For me the point is that there is real energy in resonant ringing and I doubt that shorting will give any meaningful output when coil does not get excited at its natural resonance. Likely all the hell breaks loose if some modern Tesla shorts also the peaks of resonant ringing. I have seen random hits when amplitude is much larger than regular.
Works just like hydraulic shockwave. Shock the shockwave and for real kicks...

This explains the spark gaps in almost every claimed OU design - no spark - no ringing - no good stuff.
Maybe it is possible with ultra-fast transistors also, I'm no specialist on this.
I tried with RF transistor and got nothing. i_ron also got nothing so far.

Maybe is time for Gyula to step in with some real-world self-made example and scope shots, he seems to know the tech stuff. I would be really glad to avoid spark gaps and such because of RF emission and unstable operation.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 09, 2011, 07:30:16 AM
You might be able to use my 555 circuits.  I published them for someone else.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: hakware on March 09, 2011, 07:48:51 AM
You might be able to use my 555 circuits.  I published them for someone else.

Yea this is the circuit I made the other day.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 09, 2011, 10:55:07 AM
Ok, thanks. But the problem is I already tried transistor-based switching and did get only wery sad low amplitude spikes, nothing compared to resonant ringig. So maybe you could post real-word scope shots from such circuits output and efficency results?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 09, 2011, 11:21:51 AM
Hackware
Please risize your images,we have to walk three blocks to read the page.
Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on March 09, 2011, 11:35:31 AM
Hi All,

If you know your base frequency then you can divide it into quarters to find the frequency that will cut the peaks. So if your base frequency is 60hz, 60hz*4=240hz. 240hz will cut the 60hz signal 4 times 2 at the zero points and 2 at the +/- peaks. You could go 2 then just shift the phase also. So if you spike at 240hz to cascade at that peak it would be at 240hz*4hz=960hz. It will take a lot of phase tweaking or some kind of DSP chip to get it accurate at the next cascade.

Here is a example using circuit simulator (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/) :

Doesn't have to be a sine wave input, a square wave signal will also work in the sim.

This is the best post I saw.Thank you, this confirms my old experience with 2x resonant frequency driving circuit. The hard part is to direct energy flow where it is needed, it tries to escape every wire.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on March 09, 2011, 11:41:43 AM
This reminds me INNOVATION_STATION talk about one frequency interrupted.
http://www.youtube.com/user/innovationstation?blend=1&ob=0#p/u/17/068l0trm6TI

Isn't that just radio waves ? Do we catch radio waves ?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 09, 2011, 01:44:58 PM
What i try to test is  can we decrease the Lenz effect on a generator by shorting coil

For starters just think about collecting backspike from drive coil.

For example:

drive pulse - duration x, current y, voltage z
backspike - duration x, current y, voltage -z (minus losses)

Nothing interesting here. But when one does that:

drive pulse - duration x, current y, voltage z
backspike - duration x/100, current y, voltage -z*100 (minus losses)

100 times less effect on the rotor.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Bruce_TPU on March 09, 2011, 02:16:15 PM
Or as I have said, build a coil out of parallel pieces of wire, thus reducing losses because of lower resistance, and multiply shorted coil effect power by number of strands within said coil!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 09, 2011, 03:28:21 PM
Hi Bruce_TPU,

this would reflect what Bedini said about Cole's finds with regards to multistrand coils. But every wire needs its own FWBR for this to work right? Have you personally measured this effect by having more output?
Also, I think adding wires is probably more efficient up to a certain amount, after that the multistrand wire gets too thick and less winds fit on the spool.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 09, 2011, 04:20:30 PM
Hi Bolt, you wrote:

Quote
There is no difference from a wheel going around with a magnet on it passing a coil OR have a coil with a magnet beside it and pulse it stationary. Only provision the trigger coils sits over the Bloch Wall so the coil collapse when sine shorted cuts the magnetic lines of force. The result is the same.

I have done quite a few experiments a while ago to see if I could replicate the magnacoaster setup but with no luck.
I thought he would charge the coil and then collect the collapse plus what apparently comes from the magnet (I used all of his pics I could find plus patent), while you mentioned sine wave. I can't quite envision what you said about the magnet next to the coil and the trigger coil on the bloch wall. Do you mean one control coil and one generator coil?

thanks,
Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 09, 2011, 04:40:09 PM
Magnacoaster used a pulsed coil of not that many turns about 100 is enough as seen in his early photos. He used a laminate steel core like transformer strips then applied 5 powerful neos one end and 1 the other. This magnet layout is VITAL.

It creates a Bloch wall which sits about 2/3 across for the length of the core. The edge of the coil sits right over the bloch wall. So you need it to slide along so you can find the sweet spot.  When the coil is pulsed the magnetic field is already on the Bloch wall and acts as a pivot point. You can not do this any other way when using such powerful neos to fight against this magnetic field would need like 400 amp pulses so you hit it right on the Bloch wall. This is called  asymmetric magnetic modulation. When the field collapses the neos flux over shoots and generates more power out of the coil than what you put into it. Now coil shorting will help here a lot. I dont know what he is doing now but if you hit the top of the rebounding neo spike with  short you can almost certainly increase the voltage perhaps 5 times more then syphon off ONLY the HF part of this signal will prevent loading to the driver. In practice you would put blocking diodes going into the coil to prevent BEMF reaching the driver then use about 0.01uF in series each side of the coil to syphon off only the HF and use as high pass filter. Then add a HF balum traffo and impedance match down before going to FWBR then into a dump cap.

Having not built it that is all i can tell you but if i was to build any of this stuff i would do this rather then piss about with bedini wheels and spinning magnets.

I also know he was using high side fet triggers because when they blew out short circuit it almost always melted his coils:)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 09, 2011, 05:25:33 PM
Having not built it that is all i can tell you but if i was to build any of this stuff i would do this rather then piss about with bedini wheels and spinning magnets.

So what have you built?
Spinning magnets is just a learning tool, and very good one.
You cannot write a word before you know the letters.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 09, 2011, 05:45:38 PM
I see what you mean, I've been all solid state from the beginning until a few months ago, because there where a few concepts I needed to learn by actually having rotating magnets. But I'm  definitely going back to solid state.
I'm at work so can't make a drawing but I think I get the picture. The bloch wall sits at 1/3 on the core side closer to the 4 magnet pack. The coil starts there and has the end towards the weeker side (1 magnet). The coil when pulsed has the same magnetic orientation as the single magnet and actually strenghtens its field pulling the bloch wall a bit inside the coil. I mean if the 4 magnets are N towards the core the single magnet has S facing the core, the coil when energized has same polarity as the single magnet, correct?

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 09, 2011, 05:53:29 PM
So what have you built?
Spinning magnets is just a learning tool, and very good one.
You cannot write a word before you know the letters.

30 years worth of trained RF tech military, commercial,  HAM radio, DIY hobby and energy saving stuff. Im currently working with HHO. So yes i do know a few letters.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 09, 2011, 05:59:02 PM
I see what you mean, I've been all solid state from the beginning until a few months ago, because there where a few concepts I needed to learn by actually having rotating magnets. But I'm  definitely going back to solid state.
I'm at work so can't make a drawing but I think I get the picture. The bloch wall sits at 1/3 on the core side closer to the 4 magnet pack. The coil starts there and has the end towards the weeker side (1 magnet). The coil when pulsed has the same magnetic orientation as the single magnet and actually strenghtens its field pulling the bloch wall a bit inside the coil. I mean if the 4 magnets are N towards the core the single magnet has S facing the core, the coil when energized has same polarity as the single magnet, correct?

Mario

Yes that's about it. As magnacoaster is no scientist he figured out pretty quick to pulse the coil and magnet rather then using wheels. Although someone may have told him how to do it and he tried and it works. So all you have to do is find the Bloch wall and pulse it making sure the polarity is correct for the pulses then work out what frequencies work best.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 09, 2011, 06:14:12 PM
30 years worth of trained RF tech military, commercial,  HAM radio, DIY hobby and energy saving stuff. Im currently working with HHO. So yes i do know a few letters.

Then it should be rather easy to build solid state shorting device with COP > 1. If you are here to teach others then it works better by repeatable experiments. With your level of experience it should take much less time to build working device then to spend all this time posting and drawing schematics :)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: konehead on March 09, 2011, 06:56:14 PM
Hi all
"rules" of successful coil-shorting are:
1) must use super low low low resistance switching. That is why reed swtiches work well (but wont last)...I was always using solid state mosfet relays in my motor for years, when I tried to coil short with them, it didnt work at all and was very confounded.
This summer, Ismael Aviso told me to do it solid state you MUST have ultra-low resistance switching and this means you can only use mosfets of high amperage basically.
Ismael actually puts 5 mosfets in paralell to get the ressitance low....solids state relays will NOT work as resistance is too high. 
Also this summer Gyula gave me  excellent bidirectional mosfet circuit, where mosfets connect at the source and gate so they swtihc AC this works very great.

rule2) ther emust be NO resistance in capacitor that fills up in coil shorting ...any resistance kills effect as you get the picture...
you shoulud have "two-stage" circuit to output power - that is cap fills up first, then cap dumps to load while at same time cap is disconnected from "source" (coils being shorted)
 I never had problems iwth extra draw (reflection) to motor when using reed swithcies - just like romerouk shows - you find that timing sweet spot - but when I made a very powerful mullergenrator with aircores, and one coil of 12  can put out 15A and 20V apiece (VA not watts) then had lots of problems of rotovertor motor going up in draw when coil-shorting.
My freind Bob Leff was testing this with me and I showed him scope shot what coil shorting looks like (oscilation rings)
and he said this is JUST LIKE TESL SPARK GAP (it is and  Ismael says same thing) - when spark gap jumps acorss upon connection, it shorts coil....and so what you do with Tesla spark gap is put "resonator" AC cap in series so we did that and "rerfleciton" (extra draw)  back to motor is totally GONE...(BIG breakthrogh!)
but you must experiment with different uf sizes - 6uf as example will be no refleciton, but lesser power let thourght...Bolt explained to me the AC cap in series works as high-bypass filter...letting the highend go through to fill cap but blcoking low end stuff that casues lenz-lug to rotor... other example is 100 uf will be lots of powe let through, but the lots of  relction etc...
The AC seris  caps also cuts lenz sw down too which also Ismael confimred to me he usesthem too...but really two-stage circuit and also high bypass cap is way you want to go for "extraction" of big power.
Ismael Shorts 5 times during peak period - and he times the shorts to occur right at tops of the OSCILLATION'S PEAKS that is the"how he does it"
I am woking on doing that now. using some 555 smitt-trigger timer cirucits that Bolt gave me which can sense, asimewave peaks and pop in the multiple shorts per peak...

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Groundloop on March 09, 2011, 07:55:48 PM
Konehead,

>>Also this summer Gyula gave me excellent bidirectional mosfet circuit, where mosfets >>connect at the source and gate so they switch AC this works very great.

Can you post this circuit here?

GL.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 09, 2011, 08:33:24 PM
Konehead,

>>Also this summer Gyula gave me excellent bidirectional mosfet circuit, where mosfets >>connect at the source and gate so they switch AC this works very great.

Can you post this circuit here?

GL.

GL, it was posted on page 11, #150

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 09, 2011, 08:48:06 PM
Hi Doug, and All,

The simplest "peak finder" that I could find was this one...

http://www.8051projects.info/blogs.asp?view=plink&id=198

Just use an extra coil as you were doing and with one transistor... voila... zero crossing. With the coil adjustable one just moves the coil until it sits squarely on top of the sine peak.

Here is what the circuit looks like, the diode D2 separates the voltage regulator from the transistor sense part of the circuit...

Q1 puts out a positive logic signal so a 555 won't work, I used a CD4047 for the one shot. The one shot then triggers the CD4093. R5 is a pot to set the pulse width.

But minimal parts!

Second pic is my RV setup

Third pic is what the signal looks like, but not shorting the coil in this shot

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: guruji on March 09, 2011, 09:47:48 PM
Magnacoaster used a pulsed coil of not that many turns about 100 is enough as seen in his early photos. He used a laminate steel core like transformer strips then applied 5 powerful neos one end and 1 the other. This magnet layout is VITAL.

It creates a Bloch wall which sits about 2/3 across for the length of the core. The edge of the coil sits right over the bloch wall. So you need it to slide along so you can find the sweet spot.  When the coil is pulsed the magnetic field is already on the Bloch wall and acts as a pivot point. You can not do this any other way when using such powerful neos to fight against this magnetic field would need like 400 amp pulses so you hit it right on the Bloch wall. This is called  asymmetric magnetic modulation. When the field collapses the neos flux over shoots and generates more power out of the coil than what you put into it. Now coil shorting will help here a lot. I dont know what he is doing now but if you hit the top of the rebounding neo spike with  short you can almost certainly increase the voltage perhaps 5 times more then syphon off ONLY the HF part of this signal will prevent loading to the driver. In practice you would put blocking diodes going into the coil to prevent BEMF reaching the driver then use about 0.01uF in series each side of the coil to syphon off only the HF and use as high pass filter. Then add a HF balum traffo and impedance match down before going to FWBR then into a dump cap.

Having not built it that is all i can tell you but if i was to build any of this stuff i would do this rather then piss about with bedini wheels and spinning magnets.

I also know he was using high side fet triggers because when they blew out short circuit it almost always melted his coils:)

Hi Bolt can you please post a diagram of this?
Thanks
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 09, 2011, 10:02:27 PM
Guys, I don't know if you think it's off topic but I have a few magnacoaster pics to have a visual of the setup both mechanical and solid state, can't see the magnetic polarity of course, but still...

Let me know if you want me to post them here.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 09, 2011, 10:04:30 PM
Quote

It creates a Bloch wall which sits about 2/3 across for the length of the core. The edge of the coil sits right over the bloch wall. So you need it to slide along so you can find the sweet spot.  When the coil is pulsed the magnetic field is already on the Bloch wall and acts as a pivot point. You can not do this any other way when using such powerful neos to fight against this magnetic field would need like 400 amp pulses so you hit it right on the Bloch wall. This is called  asymmetric magnetic modulation. When the field collapses the neos flux over shoots and generates more power out of the coil than what you put into it. Now coil shorting will help here a lot. I dont know what he is doing now but if you hit the top of the rebounding neo spike with  short you can almost certainly increase the voltage perhaps 5 times more then syphon off ONLY the HF part of this signal will prevent loading to the driver. In practice you would put blocking diodes going into the coil to prevent BEMF reaching the driver then use about 0.01uF in series each side of the coil to syphon off only the HF and use as high pass filter. Then add a HF balum traffo and impedance match down before going to FWBR then into a dump cap.

Wow bolt ,great description.  Does this have anything in common with Groundloop's solid state orbo or Naudin's 2sGen?    It sounds like modulating the hysteresis curve using neodymium magnets.

Naudin 2SGen
http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm)

Also lol @ 'piss about with Bedini motors' hahaha
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 09, 2011, 10:08:32 PM
Mario,
Its definitely On topic!, Richard Willis is opening two new factories for this!
Please post em.
Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 09, 2011, 10:29:02 PM
Hi Mario,

Thanks for the circuit and the pictures. You use an interesting circuit with the 555, the frequency control potmeter is in series with the oscillator capacitor, have not seen such connection but if you are happy with it then no problem of course.
I cannot explain yet why a single chopping pulse gives more 'juice' than multiple choppings, hopefully sooner or later an answer will be found.

Gyula

Hi Gyula,

right now I don't have the whole circuit on paper like it is right now, but I've attached the basic schematic of the 555 circuit I've been using over the last  few years for many solid state experiments.
I said hall but right now I went from the wheel to solid state so I'm using one 555 circuit to drive the bottom coil (attached pic) at resonance with a cap to simulate the rotating magnet, it has 100 feet og 18AWG wire. On top of that is the big coil which I filled up with 23AWG I believe. Both cores are ferrite.
Since the 555 signal is hitting the power coil at sine peak for resonance I can use the same signal to drive the two mosfets that short the generator coil, convenient right? ;D
To chop that signal I send it to the trigger input of a second 555 circuit and send this signal to the fet driver. You asked about the width, I went from a few % (very narrow) to 100% duty cycle which is like just using the first main pulse. Whatever I do, the output cap has more voltage with just the one main pulse, when I start chopping, whatever frequency, output gets lower. I have more spikes but lower amplitude.

I use a third 555 circuit fed from a separate supply to discharge the cap to the little 240/110 - 12V toroid transformer.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: woopy on March 09, 2011, 10:34:37 PM
hi all

this thread is really taking off

thank's to all for sharing

good luck at all :D

laurent
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 09, 2011, 10:47:30 PM
Here you go:
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 09, 2011, 10:51:27 PM
Hi yssuraxu_697,

While I may agree to a certain degree with your saying "I seem to know the tech stuff", LOL,  I by no means know everything, unfortunately.
I have tinkered a lot several years ago on different pulsed circuits when my circumstances both in free time and in lab wise were much better, so when I give technical advice on something to others in forums it is based on earlier hands on experiment and a fairly good amount of background knowledge.  And I never claim or say anything I am not sure of.
Unfortunately, I have been very limited in doing serious tinkering nowadays. And I have not witnessed any extra energy in circuits which clearly could be utilized as being excess over the input.

And I do not think it may be time for me to step in with measurements, particularly in this coil shorting circuit, for I have not claimed anything unusual with it... rather I tried to give some help by pointing out possible problems in the shown schematics so that at least the circuit itself should be as good as possible.
I also think that it is time to step in for those persons why claim extra output: they simple ought to show it with correct measurements data, not with words, that is all.

rgds, 
Gyula



Ok guys, lets quit playing ;)

My testrig is small very low power pulse motor.

Currents status is:
INPUT: 6.55V 15mA = 0.1W
OUTPUT: 0.024W (efficent up to 160V, maximal usable output at 250V)
BEST EFFICENCY: 24%

It must be said that output seems to have zero effect on the input and rotor speed. So it is only 24% but it's totally free. The number is carefully calculated and tested over and over and I found it very good for such low powered mechanical design made from crap lying around. I could extract much more in addition to that 24% from that motor-generator when using additional regular generator coils that put some load on the rotor. But this is not the point, point is the timeline of shorting process:

0ms unused generator pulse (2ms)
2ms drive pulse from battery* (6ms)
8ms backspike (0.1ms)
8.1ms resonant ringing (~6ms)

*yes, this means I short the drive coil, not separate gen coil

Explained this means that first starts the sine wave from natural generation from approaching magnet. Then I connect the battery for 6ms, this drives the disc. After disconnecting the battery there is sparking at the reed, duration is only 0.1ms, most of the energy gets dissipated because of too much microsparking. This can be seen on the rectified shot - no usable energy in backspike - it just gets radiated all over the place. Then resonant ringing kicks in, excited by sparking. Duration is same as drive pulse. And when viewing rectifier and cap shots under load we see that cap charging duration for given load is around 0.4ms.
I have no reference point to sync all the shots but it is clear that cap is being charged only by resonant ringing.
For me the point is that there is real energy in resonant ringing and I doubt that shorting will give any meaningful output when coil does not get excited at its natural resonance. Likely all the hell breaks loose if some modern Tesla shorts also the peaks of resonant ringing. I have seen random hits when amplitude is much larger than regular.
Works just like hydraulic shockwave. Shock the shockwave and for real kicks...

This explains the spark gaps in almost every claimed OU design - no spark - no ringing - no good stuff.
Maybe it is possible with ultra-fast transistors also, I'm no specialist on this.
I tried with RF transistor and got nothing. i_ron also got nothing so far.

Maybe is time for Gyula to step in with some real-world self-made example and scope shots, he seems to know the tech stuff. I would be really glad to avoid spark gaps and such because of RF emission and unstable operation.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 09, 2011, 10:56:40 PM
Guys, when I chop the hall signal with the 555 circuit to get more shortings per sine peak the output decreases. I mean, from what I see one big bang per peak gives more output than many shorts per peak, this I see from what I collect in the output cap. Of course I've tried sweeping the frequency and duty cycle of the 555, even to match the ringing frequency of the coil, still no luck.
Anyone else getting the same?

Mario

Mario,

 What I noticed, with a small load resistor across the collection cap, was  50 volts DC single pulse, 35 volts for three pulses and then back up to 52 volts when five pulsed.

However I have no resonance ringing so need to try a small cap across the coil

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 09, 2011, 11:04:45 PM
Hi Groundloop,

Here is another one, besides what i_ron already showed you:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276699#msg276699

Gyula

Konehead,

>>Also this summer Gyula gave me excellent bidirectional mosfet circuit, where mosfets >>connect at the source and gate so they switch AC this works very great.

Can you post this circuit here?

GL.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 09, 2011, 11:26:41 PM
Ron, thanks. You do have resonant ringing though, if you zoom in on the spike you'll see the natural ringing of the coil dictated by its inductance and self-capacitance.

regards,
Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 09, 2011, 11:50:56 PM
Hi Doug, and All,

The simplest "peak finder" that I could find was this one...

http://www.8051projects.info/blogs.asp?view=plink&id=198

Just use an extra coil as you were doing and with one transistor... voila... zero crossing. With the coil adjustable one just moves the coil until it sits squarely on top of the sine peak.

Here is what the circuit looks like, the diode D2 separates the voltage regulator from the transistor sense part of the circuit...

Q1 puts out a positive logic signal so a 555 won't work, I used a CD4047 for the one shot. The one shot then triggers the CD4093. R5 is a pot to set the pulse width.

But minimal parts!

Second pic is my RV setup

Third pic is what the signal looks like, but not shorting the coil in this shot

Ron

Quite a nice circuit i like the way it charges off the second coil. Only thing i am not keen is the very fact a second coil is required. With direct zero point sensing this coil is redundant as can sense just the same coil that will be shorted and also my 555 setup will work with solid state devices. You may have seen yet another version in EVgray where Kone has a circuit that uses another hall trigger to get pulses off the magnets without using a coil then you can do all the timings from that instead.

BTW in case other builders are reading make sure you use independent power supplies batteries etc for these trigger circuits and coil shorting fets. The voltage levels are all over the place in respect to each other so don't try and common everything together they need to stay floating.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 09, 2011, 11:55:00 PM
Hi Bolt can you please post a diagram of this?
Thanks

I am really bad with drawings i don't have any fancy 3D drawing packages. You draw it as you think i describe it and i tell you if its correct or not and if you need to change anything.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 10, 2011, 12:24:55 AM
Guys, I don't know if you think it's off topic but I have a few magnacoaster pics to have a visual of the setup both mechanical and solid state, can't see the magnetic polarity of course, but still...

Let me know if you want me to post them here.

Mario

Sorry to bring Magnacoaster back into this again after all these years but its VERY relevant! He started off with spinning wheels and magnets. You can see he did the pulse motor stuff. He made dozens of types of coils and tried a lot of things.  Within a few months of starting this  he found he could bang magnets with coils and much of this hardware became redundant.  Now i know some of you may be thinking well if magnacoaster found the secret and got tons of OU how come he is not rich and selling tons of stuff by now? Two main reasons. Money AND Politics.

You can not just make and sell a 5kw system as a retail seller without spending many thousands on type approvals, FCC and UL etc because they day you sell ONE is the day you be shut down and fined $100k+ or even face jail time.  Nor do i think anyone would have the nerve to go on Dragons Den, take on staff, commit to commercial office space, spends thousands on hardware UNLESS you have amazing evidence that coils and magnets can produce an incredible amount of OU power. He is certainly not unique history shows many more devices and OU motors are laying around in "museums" collecting dust and no finance. With this said alike many thousands of expired and dormant patents it does not stop people at home making this stuff as you will only get these problems if you try to cash in on it and see $ signs.

There is no easy money in free energy. Its free to use and free to share but VERY expensive to research and build and proving OU device will see no big shot investors come running.... those days back in the 80' an 90's have long gone. So don't build stuff for proof of concept. No one is the slightest bit interested if you have 1mW or 1000 watts OU.

I know you think the world owes you a favour for saving the planet? Nope Ask Ismael Aviso is the latest on the scene with his OU electric car,  government certified by DOE and still no funding!

The only person it will effect is you IF you can put a device to your own practical use to save energy and money.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 10, 2011, 06:56:02 AM
Quote
The only person it will effect is you IF you can put a device to your own practical use to save energy and money.

And it will effect the good of the world if we can open source it and make it go viral.  It's one thing to have OU , it's another to make it well-documented and replicable.

Kind of like how different linux distributions run on the same underlying open-source linux kernel.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 10, 2011, 09:15:04 PM
@Bolt,
Great posts. Thanks.
And yes the Magnacoaster is very, very relevant.
JDO300 and I discussed this in great detail last year as he did work in trade for a unit. But alas Willis did keep his end of the bargin. I have always been a proponent of the Bloch wall manipulation and it events. I  achieved the same events with the high frequency on the iron core of the GK4 although not controlled. But I don't consider frequencies below 1Mhz high.

The heart of this circuit can be PCB'd for less than twenty bucks and given away or sold from offhore under the guise of safe stun gun, rodent control or LED blinker mechanism. The add on power stages can be sold seperately by another company with instructions who license the driver connection. ;) and pay a subscription fee to the licenser. This way no U.S. federal dollars are involved by the consumer for the right to use the driver. This excludes the U.S. government. What stops the customer from making their own output stages? Nothing. How does the licenser get their fee per unit?
Have an offshore seller do the transactions also. Sell it as one thing and connect it as another. There are many ways to skin a cat.
The driver units can also be sold as kits with the disclaimer 'The customer assumes all responsibility'.  ;D

Sell the antenna but give away the radio.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 10, 2011, 10:00:13 PM
Hi GK!

Nice to see you around i hope you are well! Good ideas about shipping in sections and let user put together 2 parts for a working system wil overcome many problems.

BTW for anyone that still doubts his technology works take a look at this and ask yourself WHY would anyone (magnacoaster) go to make something as complex and expensive as this if it were just a dud? Its clear he has spend his time albeit slowly in bringing this up from a kitchen table design to a production quality OU power supply.

In its most simple form the low power version of about 150 watts has a 2 fet o/p stage is little more than a 50Khz inverter driving a small solenoid size coil with 3 neos one end and 1 the other.

Photo taken about 24 hours ago...

I think this is a 3 phase 5kw PSU with active oil pump cooling.


Bottom photo oil pump assembly. If you look close at top centre is some coils he is using now for power generation. It looks no more then about 150 turns of about 16 awg hardly changed from devices shown years ago. This gives you a good heads up and how you should replicate.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 10, 2011, 10:34:49 PM
@Bolt,
Doing well. Spent time talking to Moab last night about this. We talked about control for safety in some of the other devices that are easy to create that runaway in usecs. Lets call them EMPs.  ;D
This device is like the devices on a mechanical spindle in that the meduim has some resistance or latency to it. Something physical slows it down or keeps it below a certain rpm or switching speed.

The Magnacoaster device is the Kunel patent. The weak field in space is the same as shorting the coil at the peaks or manipulating the Bloch wall at the correct place or angle.  ;) 8) ;) 8)

This configuration should make more sense now.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 10, 2011, 10:43:16 PM
@Bolt or GK

I made this drawing according to Willis photos, is this the correct polarity of things or could it be repelling? Where does the bloch wall sit?

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 10, 2011, 10:54:06 PM
I thought Kunel device was a restricted highly classified class 3 patent. How did he get this info do you know?  Perhaps i have to look into this more as there was nothing on google in the past when i checked only speculation. Maybe it came out out via wikileaks LOL
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 10, 2011, 10:58:13 PM
Read this and absorb it.
http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Patents/DE3024814.pdf

This guy jumped on the train a year after all my posts in 2009.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9549.msg251718#msg251718

More detail
http://www.intalek.com/Papers/Handout3.pdf

I have other versions of this:
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 10, 2011, 11:03:29 PM
@Bolt or GK

I made this drawing according to Willis photos, is this the correct polarity of things or could it be repelling? Where does the bloch wall sit?

Mario

Bloch wall will be biased towards the right  side of the bar away from the highest count neos. It should lay just under the right hand side edge of the coil so you make the coil slid-able then adjust it during prototype. For production you will know exactly where to place everything.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 10, 2011, 11:07:23 PM
The dual pulse protocol is another variation of this where you run a very fast thin pulse right up behind another very fast thin pulse. The signal on the scope shows greater than input.

At the Coral Castle Ed jacks the field that is the size of the park. Oh yeah! :o 8)

Here this is inside out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NB8fXByWj8
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 10, 2011, 11:44:14 PM
GK, I have the Kunel patent and the Intalek docs, thanks. Good stuff.

Bolt, that's what I thought, the single magnet plus coil pull the BW to the right, but I thought the BW would sit on the left hand side of the coil (when not energized), closer to the stronger magnet pack?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 10, 2011, 11:50:56 PM

This is why Sauron posted the little video coils.

Quote
Bottom photo oil pump assembly. If you look close at top centre is some coils he is using now for power generation. It looks no more then about 150 turns of about 24 awg hardly changed from devices shown years ago. This gives you a good heads up and how you should replicate.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 11, 2011, 12:02:15 AM
GK, I have the Kunel patent and the Intalek docs, thanks. Good stuff.

Bolt, that's what I thought, the single magnet plus coil pull the BW to the right, but I thought the BW would sit on the left hand side of the coil (when not energized), closer to the stronger magnet pack?

Bloch wall wont move far perhaps 1/8th of inch when pulsed but the magnetic flux from those neos on collapse has a pull force of perhaps  >100 pound on the air gap. You can lose fingers in those neos they are not toys.

 Now pulse this at 50,000 times a second you got one hell of a powerful generator. To do this mechanically would need some first class machinery to get tight 1/16th air gap and handle impossible fast rotor speeds.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 11, 2011, 12:34:12 AM
Coil excitation plus Dr. Stiffler setups.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5akYnh2fjM
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 02:00:13 AM
@bolt

Great post, thanks for the photos.

You write,
Quote
In its most simple form the low power version of about 150 watts has a 2 fet o/p stage is little more than a 50Khz inverter driving a small solenoid size coil with 3 neos one end and 1 the other.

Can someone post a schematic, photos, or any other sort of documentation on  this for a starting bench replication?   Or links to the place to look? etc

Thanks
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 11, 2011, 04:03:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qSe2YsEQM

Right out of the Kunel patent and Bolt's specifications.

Iron wire core.

In previous consults with other OUers the last year we discussed the magnet types. Magnacoaster, in one video, said the weak field was by cabinet magnets because NiDb magnet fields were too strong and the Bloch wall could not be swayed, jacked or broken. In one vid he used a chunk of steel and put a small NiDb BB on it at the back end away from the gap.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 11, 2011, 04:20:26 AM
@bolt

Great post, thanks for the photos.

You write,
Can someone post a schematic, photos, or any other sort of documentation on  this for a starting bench replication?   Or links to the place to look? etc

Thanks

I am sure everything you need is already here. Start back in the old magnacoaster thread. The pulse driver is the same thing used all over this forum its basically just like a 555 driving a fet which bangs the coil. You should high side drive it though because the flux modulation likes positives pulses apparently. If you low side it then you end in essence pulling lows then it float up as a floppy high. I am pretty sure you can get results with very simple circuits. Magnacoaster got this going using a wheel and a car points as a switch then later went to fets. Until you get deep study on the bench and tried it, no one really knows the perfect frequency, shape, amplitude, etc  it does look around 20kHz- 50khz which seems about right. More then this will create a lot problems with heat and coil core materials. Advanced circuits may well use Hi Low drivers and an  H bridge to get symmetrical power drive.

Anyway sorry for taking this thread off track BUT if you have coils and magnets in front of you then you might as well combine all these technologies into something useful.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Goat on March 11, 2011, 07:41:59 AM
@ Bolt

I agree with your views particularly the "Magnacoaster got this going using a wheel and a car points as a switch then later went to fets."  I remember watching the early video and wondering how the circuit inside the box was related to the "wheel and car points" and the magnets and was feeding back to the battery to keep the 12V to 120V inverter going...Why was that method abandoned when it could have been implemented on a smaller scale and sold as a kit or a ready made product on a smaller scale to supplement bigger advancements... 

Is there a way to backwards engineer his first design?

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on March 11, 2011, 08:49:25 AM
Is there a way to backwards engineer his first design?

Regards,
Paul


From patent maybe ?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 11, 2011, 09:59:53 AM
Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qSe2YsEQM

Right out of the Kunel patent and Bolt's specifications.

Iron wire core.

GK, wow you put my drawing at work quickly, :D 

The Kunel stuff tends to use the control coil to neutralize (hide) a magnet from the pick up coil(s) and let go. In this case I think it's really just shifting the bloch wall, in a very powerful way.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: MasterPlaster on March 11, 2011, 11:05:51 AM

The Kunel stuff tends to use the control coil to neutralize (hide) a magnet from the pick up coil(s) and let go. In this case I think it's really just shifting the bloch wall, in a very powerful way.


No it that is not the right thinking. When you bring two similar poles of magnets
you feel the magnetic force. A bit like pushing two baloons together. This is how I see the magnetic fields.

Also, think of a bow and arrow, you pull the bow back to the right amount. too little or too much is no good. The magnetic field is the pressure behind the bow.

So you fire the magnetic field and you let go!

I have a feeling that on collapse of the holding force, the earths magnetic field over compensates and that is the bounty.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 11, 2011, 02:38:01 PM
@popolibero
The magnet with the gap must be in repulsion mode. I have tried all Magnacoasters setups but without gain at the level Richard is claiming. I am sure he's got another secret there, maybe coil lenght in relation with the magnets, the coil itself,winding,...
Recently I have tried to short the driving coil and the spike I got burned all components, transistor, hall,... The spike was about 1600v.
Richard has the same problem for long time now, the spike burns the components and is difficult to control. He is using a chopper transformer but even there he has some problems too. Dumping the charge in

Shorting the BEMF is a better approach, timing is very important.
I have redone my circuits and now I am using better components.
One thing to mention, I am not shorting the coil directly, I am doing it with a capacitor, in fact the shorting is adding a capacitor in parallel with the coil.The capacitor value in my case is 0.33uf.
The coil I use is not the old MOT fan anymore, I have made a coil with 500 turns, 0.8mm wire.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 04:42:51 PM
Okay , it sounds like this is promising ,but we really need to put this together as an open-source PDF for this to be viable.  It's hard when the information is scattered around in 10 different places.

Anyway, I'll try to dig more into this, but the basic idea is what.  Solenoid in parallel with 3-4 magnets driven with 20-50khz ... okay, cool... what waveform drives the solenoid?  How does the inverter fit in to the schematic?

To be honest, I feel more confident replicating the Boyce TPU than the Magnacoaster thing, but maybe thats cause I've done more research on it, and programming microcontroller pulses seems to be easier to me somehow.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 11, 2011, 04:46:03 PM
'nuff sed...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lU2Ijs_8TY
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 04:52:13 PM
'nuff sed...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lU2Ijs_8TY

Thanks GK, that's really interesting.  Putting the magnets and toroid against the television to measure the flux was a good idea.   Still I'm not clear on how to get from this to a practical system...

In the Kunel patents, the systems still use battery banks.   As far as I'm concerned, I want 'solid-state' or bust... no Bedini battery banks.  Just capacitors and invertors etc.

But what you've posted is definitely promising, hopefully you're able to use that information to build a new circuit.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 11, 2011, 04:53:06 PM


Recently I have tried to short the driving coil and the spike I got burned all components, transistor, hall,... The spike was about 1600v.



romero, fascinating... could you clarify that for me? were you driving in attraction or repulsion, where did the short take place, before, during, or after the power pulse?

Ron


Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 11, 2011, 05:33:37 PM
What if when the driving pulse subsides the collapse is faster than light and more powerful?

Place the Kunel Patent and the tv demo on top of each other for a configuration verification.
You don't want to use batteries? LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL. Excuse me for that but simplicity is raking me over the coils. Put a coil on the ring to bias the iron wire into a polarized magnetic field. MuwHaahahahah! 90 degree coupling again. Oh yeah! AND(drum roll please) you can control the magnetic field at your whim! (This is a biggie).
Instead of a big ol' fat iron handful you could use a single strand of iron wire and make it as small as you want to create the virtual spark gap. MuwHahahaha!

And you can short that whole mess when ever it deems fitting. A very big MuwHahahahah!

Placement, alignment, polarity and timing.
It is going to be a very great weekend!

p.s. Don't beat this info up with hypos or technikies. It is just too simple not to bench it out, turn it on and let it rip!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 05:44:04 PM
You bastard you seem to have had a  technical revelation...  I'm tempted to skip out of work early and go organize my box of mosfets  ;)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 11, 2011, 05:55:16 PM
MuWHahahaha!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcuXkicCTro

Fire in the Hole!

You bastard you seem to have had a  technical revelation...  I'm tempted to skip out of work early and go organize my box of mosfets  ;)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 11, 2011, 06:06:45 PM
GK
I suppose its no Coinkydink your TV coil looks just like the Kunel Patent you posted?
GK Quote:
"Read this and absorb it."
http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Patents/DE3024814.pdf

Or most of your recent coils for that matter!
Thanks !
Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 11, 2011, 06:28:33 PM
romero, fascinating... could you clarify that for me? were you driving in attraction or repulsion, where did the short take place, before, during, or after the power pulse?

Ron
I was driving in repulsion.Transistor also had a diode 1n4007 to capture the BEMF.After few seconds running all components where dead, inclusive the diode.I had it running ok for hours but only when I shorted the BEMF with the capacitor all went KAPUT....:)
Now I am using SS DC Relay 280v/50A and it looks much better, I hope I will not blow that one too, it is quite expensive. I'll do more testing later.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 11, 2011, 06:36:17 PM
Very good work GK. Good investigative skills breaks down the hype into simple explanations. As far as i know Ismael Aviso Meg works similar but he doesn't use perm magnets but rather powerful electro magnet coils which oppose each other to generate intense flux field. Its the collapsing reflux which is OU and not the energising flux so you must make sure your load is not applied during pulse activation but only on the collapse. As the collapsing flux leads the current pulse you short the sine several times on the peaks gives energy boost. Its by far not the best technology though with a COP of just 2.7 typical of MEGS puts it way behind Kapandze COP about 100 and TPU and VTA the COP >1000. But hey a COP of 2 or 3 would be a nice start!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 11, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
The iron core lowers the C.O.P. Better to have air or copper.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 11, 2011, 07:55:35 PM
Hi Romerouk,

Quote
Shorting the BEMF is a better approach, timing is very important.
I have redone my circuits and now I am using better components.
One thing to mention, I am not shorting the coil directly, I am doing it with a capacitor, in fact the shorting is adding a capacitor in parallel with the coil.The capacitor value in my case is 0.33uf.


This way you can collect some energy with that cap as well and dump it to a load every once in a while. Your shorting spike will probably be a bit less in voltage though, depending how much you let the voltage climb in the cap. Higher voltage in that shorting cap is like having a higher ohm resistor, thus the bang from letting go will be smaller.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 11, 2011, 08:12:52 PM
The circuit of the scope shot of the shorting on the peaks hasn't shown up yet. It is zero crossing.
Anybody got an idea for one?
Thinking of using 555s myself.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 11, 2011, 08:29:21 PM
Btw, I have tried again to increase the shortings per peak, again playing with duty cycle as well. The circuit works well and clean, still, I'm positive that the result is that one spike charges more than multiple spikes. Also looking at the signal without output capacitor, One shorting creates one big spike plus ringings, while multiple shortings give more spikes but with less amplitude. The more shortings the smaller the amplitude gets.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 11, 2011, 08:35:41 PM
@Popolibero,
can you post a schematic of the shorting schematic?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 08:38:29 PM
Quote
The iron core lowers the C.O.P. Better to have air or copper.
@GK

I agree 'air core' might be better for the devices being discussed, ie. these electromagnet style 'coil shorting' devices, but what about a Boyce TPU?  That uses a powdered iron core with somewhat intermediate permeability 'u' to mix precisely controlled pwm square waves , square waves of 60V potential and of <10% duty cycle (realistically like 1-2% duty cycle) with precise phase control. 

Like bolt says, a TPU -- whether it's a Boyce TPU or a SM TPU, both have COP of >1000.  So does Floyd Sweet VTA.   These 'coil shorting' devices have a COP 1 to 2 orders of magnitude lower (COP=2-3, COP=10, etc).    (Here is where I'd be curious to know the COP of the 5kW device of which bolt posted photographs).   In any case, I'd be careful to say they all have common mechanism of action.  Even the SM TPU and Boyce TPU might have a different mechanism of action.

I'm not convinced that it's the same mechanism of action between the TPU devices and these 'coil shorting' devices.   But that's just my personal opinion at the moment. 

The only thing all these devices have in common seems to be the modulation of magnetic flux.

Anyway I'm off to do inventory of my parts and organize them.  Good luck this weekend GK and anyone else on the bench.

P.S.
Regardless , we need to get an open-source ,easily-replicable COP>1 device (even if it's just COP=1.5).  That way it will spread virally and we can publish PDF instructions on how to replicate.  It will be especially useful if it's a self-runner without battery banks (capacitors instead) , and if the parts cost less than $100, and if it's entirely solid-state.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 11, 2011, 09:18:50 PM
GK, I don't have the full schematic on paper and am at work anyway, but the shorting basis you can see here:

https://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/shorting-coils-circuits

On my rotor setup I used halls, now that I'm using solid state (if you go back a few pages I explained in detail what I'm doing) I use a 555 circuit both to drive the setup and short the generator coil since the impulse happens to be at the same time. I posted my basic 555 circuit a couple pages back, although others have posted other circuits as well. I use that circuit to drive both the drive and shorting fets.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 11, 2011, 09:24:28 PM
I agree that shorting might have a lower COP, but if you make the magnetic field you're shorting very strong with neos you'll get a hell of a bang I'd say.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 11, 2011, 09:46:50 PM
The circuit of the scope shot of the shorting on the peaks hasn't shown up yet. It is zero crossing.
Anybody got an idea for one?
Thinking of using 555s myself.

Yeah GK, I posted mine on message #223

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 11, 2011, 10:59:56 PM
Yeah GK, I posted mine on message #223

Ron

I simulated that with 555s in www.falstad.com
Here is falstad.com model
It is dependant on 44hz. The 555 timing needs modification to accomodate input frequency.
do not include quotes
Quote
$ 1 5.0E-6 6.724437240923179 62 5.0 50
w -32 64 16 64 0
R -32 64 -32 32 0 0 40.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
r -192 192 -128 192 0 4700.0
w -80 176 -32 176 0
v -208 64 -304 64 0 1 44.0 12.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
d -304 144 -256 192 1 0.805904783
d -256 96 -304 144 1 0.805904783
d -256 96 -208 144 1 0.805904783
d -208 144 -256 192 1 0.805904783
w -208 64 -208 144 0
w -304 64 -304 144 0
w -256 96 -256 128 0
w -192 192 -256 192 0
g -256 128 -256 144 0
t -128 192 -80 192 0 1 -4.95481979958797 0.04518019757182915 100.0
g -128 256 -128 304 0
g -80 208 -80 304 0
r -80 176 -80 64 0 4700.0
w -80 64 -32 64 0
162 -32 112 -32 176 1 2.1024259 1.0 0.0 0.0
r -32 64 -32 112 0 100.0
p -128 192 -128 144 0
174 -128 192 -128 256 0 1000.0 0.35150000000000003 Peak bias
w -128 256 -112 256 0
w -112 256 -112 224 0
165 64 96 144 96 2 5.0
w 64 224 64 128 0
w 64 64 128 64 0
w 64 64 16 64 0
c 64 224 64 288 0 1.0E-5 2.8358623894302473
g 64 288 64 320 0
c 128 256 128 288 0 1.0E-5 3.3333333333264257
g 128 288 128 320 0
r 192 128 192 64 0 100.0
w 192 64 128 64 0
174 64 64 32 128 0 1000.0 0.5495000000000001 one shot time
w 64 128 32 96 0
165 336 96 352 96 2 0.0
w 336 192 336 224 0
w 192 64 336 64 0
w 336 64 400 64 0
r 336 64 336 128 0 500.0
r 336 128 336 192 0 500.0
c 336 224 336 288 0 1.0000000000000002E-6 4.31397408759221
g 336 288 336 320 0
c 400 256 400 288 0 1.0E-5 3.3333333333264257
g 400 288 400 320 0
w 400 64 464 64 0
r 464 64 464 128 0 10000.0
M 464 160 496 160 0 2.5
I -32 176 48 176 0 0.5
w 48 176 64 192 0
d 192 160 336 192 1 0.805904783
p 464 160 480 208 0
x 100 167 139 173 0 24 555
x 375 172 414 178 0 24 555
o 4 64 0 35 20.0 0.003125 0 -1
o 49 64 0 34 5.0 9.765625E-5 0 -1
o 21 64 0 34 1.25 9.765625E-5 0 -1
o 53 64 0 34 5.0 9.765625E-5 1 -1
do not include quotes
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 12, 2011, 03:08:42 AM
I simulated that with 555s in www.falstad.com
Here is falstad.com model
It is dependant on 44hz. The 555 timing needs modification to accomodate input frequency.
do not include quotesdo not include quotes

LOL, afraid that is beyond me

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: tagor on March 12, 2011, 06:30:13 PM
what do think of this schematic ?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 12, 2011, 06:47:09 PM
GK, I don't have the full schematic on paper and am at work anyway, but the shorting basis you can see here:

https://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/shorting-coils-circuits

On my rotor setup I used halls, now that I'm using solid state (if you go back a few pages I explained in detail what I'm doing) I use a 555 circuit both to drive the setup and short the generator coil since the impulse happens to be at the same time. I posted my basic 555 circuit a couple pages back, although others have posted other circuits as well. I use that circuit to drive both the drive and shorting fets.

Mario

@popolibero

Thank you , this is EXACTLY what I was looking for.   The one thing that is missing is schematics for 'solid state' coil shorting circuit   , but this is a start.   Thanks.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 12, 2011, 06:49:09 PM
I agree that shorting might have a lower COP, but if you make the magnetic field you're shorting very strong with neos you'll get a hell of a bang I'd say.

Mario

Also coil shorting devices are much simpler to make and require much less specialized components.   Thus , more people , potentially , can replicate and experiment.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 12, 2011, 06:51:15 PM
what do think of this schematic ?

This helps too -- thanks .   My one question now (forgive my complete ignorance on these circuits) is where does the input AC come from in 'solid-state' coil shorting devices? 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 12, 2011, 07:05:11 PM
@popolibero

Thank you , this is EXACTLY what I was looking for.   The one thing that is missing is schematics for 'solid state' coil shorting circuit   , but this is a start.   Thanks.

Hi Feynman,

The 'missing schematics' for solid state switching is not missing lol it is just there in the link popolibero linked to.

There are two schematics above the scope shot and the two left hand side arrows with the "To Coil" label goes exactly the the coil to be shorted.

And the two schematics under the scope shot includes an SW1 switch which symbolizes the solid state switch. 

So the solid state switch is the two MOSFETs as shown connected in the first two schematics above the scope shot, ok? 

To answer your last question just above: the input AC comes by induction into the coil(s).

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 12, 2011, 07:24:58 PM
Maybe there has been a misunderstanding. One thing is to short the coil in solid state, this is shown in the hall triggered two fet circuit (link).
The other thing is to induce AC into the coil to be shorted. This you can do with magnets on a rotor or solid state, which is what I explained in an earlier post. In order to get rid of the motor/moving magnets I replaced that with a coil that has a parallel cap tuned to be resonant at a certain frequency. This coil I drive with a 555 circuit + fet with very short pulses. At resonance the resulting wave in this power coil becomes a sine wave. This means the magnetic field does the same, it induces an alternating field into the generator coil (the same I used in the rotored version) sitting on top of the drive coil, so the result is the same as having a moving magnet.

What comes in handy in this setup is that since the DRIVE pulse happens at the peak of the resonant AC wave, I can use the same 555 signal to drive the shorting circuit of the generator coil.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 12, 2011, 07:27:29 PM
Haha okay , I thought this had moving parts since the magnet is shown in different positions in the lower set of diagrams  (thought it was a magnet on a rotor).  My mistake...

I'll pick up a hall effect and reed switch today... I'm surprised that a reed switch can be closed by the field from a small electromagnet but the bench does not lie...    this looks really really interesting, and much easier (and cheaper) than to play with than programming microcontroller interrupts for Boyce's stuff...

Thanks guys

@bolt ,all

That 160W overunity device you mentioned , the one created by magnacoaster, do you have any comments on details on how the schematic might be organized?  I am very interesting in trying to get coil shorting to work in closed-loop mode...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 12, 2011, 07:53:24 PM
Quote
Haha okay , I thought this had moving parts since the magnet is shown in different positions in the lower set of diagrams  (thought it was a magnet on a rotor).  My mistake...

Feynman, I think you still have some things mixed up. If you're referring to the link yes it shows how to short coils on a rotored version. But you can apply the same shorting circuit to a non rotored version like I just explained.

I'm not sure magnacoaster is shorting the coil, I think he's doing something different.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 12, 2011, 08:38:03 PM
@popolibero

I'm sure I still have things mixed up!  Just learned about this in the past day or so.  Thank you for your explanations though, they have been very helpful.  I appreciate that you have taken time to write them, so I can refer back to them as I research.

I just got back from radio shack -- picked up parts for JT COP>1 anomalous phase replication.  I also picked up a some neo magnets and ceramic magnets.  Unfortunately the only magneticly activated solid state sensors they had were a reed relay -- not hall sensors.  I will at least get to experiment with the reed relay and the coils.

I'm placing a larger parts order next week so then maybe I'll snag some hall sensors and reed switches.

By the way , your idea for using the 555 to produce the AC as well as coil shorting pulses is really clever.   Luckily I have a ton of 555 timers.   In any case, I picked up 100' 22 gauge solid core insulated wire to wind the induction coil on some sort of air core. Magnet wire might have been better but that's all they had.

Anyway thanks everyone , let's figure out how to get an open-source inexpensive ($<200) self-runner somehow!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 14, 2011, 02:59:25 AM
Just a note on Bob Boyce.  Its my understanding after dissecting all the info i can find on it that the toroidal thing he uses is wired as a  3 phase transformer in essence driven by processor for control of very narrow PWM pulses, amplitude  and frequency control. The HF ferrite transformer is driven out of phase to create very high VARS and the cell sits in series with another inductor with a cap across it to make alike RF tuned circuit. This is basic RV technology.

Bob says the overall system from DC to gas has a COP around 3-5 typical. The only reason i mention this is because i seen reference to Bob's stuff having a COP > 1000 and this it not true.  So his devices puts on par with a good MEG but falls way short of Kapanadze COP 100 and the real TPU and VTA has a COP > 1000. Anything with a COP 5 or over should be capable of looping very easy.

Although many people have produced COP 1.2 or 1.8 etc within well tuned Joule Thief's, Bedini wheels and chargers etc you cant loop till you get a COP 2 plus losses to loop it usually means in practice at least COP 2.5  and even then its twitchy as hell to get a motor/gen looped at low COP and will have no power to drive anything else other than barely keep itself going.

 These lower COP levels although very real and purposeful  as Energy Savers open a big bag of worms for testing as a million man hours wasted arguing about the correct measurement methods. My suggestion is don't even bother to arguing about it if it works for you then put it to practical use for lighting, pumping, heating whatever.

I will clarify this as a motor generator. Its a COP 3 system.  Lets say my motor drives a generator. My motor needs 100 watts. The generator makes 300 watts as some special coil shorting thing (example only)  Out of that 300 watt i must loop back 200 watts because 100 watts will be lost through the motor, inverter, friction, lead acid battery etc till i get 100 watts i need to power the motor. This means the system is only 50% efficient in terms of losses. But the COP of 3 means i can pass back 200 watts lose 50% to keep the motor going on 100 watts. So im left with left 100 watts OU out of the generator.  This is typical of real life loopers:)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on March 14, 2011, 09:35:19 AM
the real tricky seems to have device running with gain, aka infinite COP and to stop at the required level of energy before it destroy device
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 14, 2011, 04:50:29 PM
From what I have seen is John Hutchison is the only one that uses multiple Tesla coils in a given test. There are no sparks and no spark gaps in the vicinity. Has anybody ever run a Tesla coil with the spark gap at some distance outside the field and/or in a shielding box to seperate the spark gap from inside the harmonic field? Probaly wouldn't create sparks. My thinking is the harmonic resonant field greatly magnifies the spark itself or reproduces it not by step up but by magnetic magnification akin to a magnetic amplifier of a resonant magnetic field in air at great potentials rather than ferrous based core.

Think about that...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 14, 2011, 05:27:43 PM
Chef,
What the heck is Richard Willis doing ? Do you have any info to prove that the Million man  hour device that bolt showed pics of being dissasembled on the bench,is a fraud?

Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 14, 2011, 06:30:47 PM
This is typical real life bullshitting  :P

Show me please only one system with hard cold proof and measurement, where output energy exceed input energy by any amount! The truth is you can't! You can talk about imagined devices, with imagined overunity performance, and I am sure lot of people will eat your words,and wetting their pussys, but in real life somehow all of these devices fail to produce the claimed results!

Funny, isn't it?  :-\

Oh yes i can! Ismael MEG has a COP of 2.7 and measured and tested on Dyno by Philippine government DOE giving OU at 134% on the wheels. Its not his MEG is anything special far from it but its the first time a device in recent history has been properly tested by a Government agency.

I also have seen looped RV's over skype about 3 years ago and watched it for over an hour. For every 1 public disclosure there are about 100 more that rather stay out of the limelight. If you prefer to believe there is no such thing as an OU device then that's fine im not out to convince you or anyone else of anything.  I just inform and you do your own homework.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 14, 2011, 07:28:37 PM
Shorting on the peaks makes it look like hash on DC.  ;)

Quote from Masterplaster
Quote
I have a feeling that on collapse of the holding force, the earths magnetic field over compensates and that is the bounty.
Yep... She hates a vacuum.

Here is my version from the previous Falstad sim that I wrote.
The input sine freq is arbitrary at 44hz. The 555s are timed for this.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 14, 2011, 08:28:31 PM
.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 14, 2011, 08:30:57 PM
GK correct as coil shorting attenuates BEMF as the signal is modulated where it can be extracted using high pass filters. TO gain OU within electrical systems method to be applied must provide source to load isolation from the effects of BEMF. Typically this happens in symmetrical systems where the i/p is directly affected by the o/p.

The greater the isolation the greater the COP as effect of Asymmetric Modulation or Asymmetric Generation can be applied to break the symmetry so we operate outside of book rules and lead into OU devices.  Special Coil construction need to be applied in most cases to drive offset flux on the bloch wall or use flat Tesla Bifilar coils driving perpendicular coil to provide 90 degree offset to prevent BEMF. Use of embedded Cap-inductor alike Don Smith Dipole. Coincidently the math and theory support either a dipole passing a cap layer OR inductors within a capacitor to break the BEMF symmetry.

Toroidal  cores can be wound and interfaced 90 degrees to each other to allow only magnetic coupling without BEMF as JLN solid state orbo has merit.

Normal transformers can NOT be used will always be symmetrical and lead to a loss. However new 90 degree windings can be made to reduce symmetry. Generators require end fired Inductors as ferrites  perpendicular to magnetic field but operated in Scaler operation create anti-lugging.

RV creates high VARS very easy. OU manifest as VARS increases kinetic energy while current and voltage operate in high VSWR or PF 0 as standing waves = Scalar Operation.  Result is massive increase in magnetic flux converts to torque while performing work on very low watts as per Joe Newman motor runs on a few PP3 batteries.

To convert VARS to Watts use asymmetrical device as above to keep symmetry broken and maintain the Dipole.

Those that have done this and proves it works you can step up to the plate. Open minded people needs to retune their thinking. Debunkers can fck off as no time left to play games.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 14, 2011, 09:35:43 PM
Chef
Post #240
Here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.240
Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 14, 2011, 09:36:42 PM
Yesterday I've run some tests with the Willis type setup, in solid state. From his patent the bigger magnet has its N facing the core it is attached to. The coil on the core when energized has the same orientation. Basically the big magnet plus coil make one magnet. The other (single)magnet with the gap opposes the core plus big magnet as it has its N oriented towards it. I've still tried all the possible orientations and could also slide the coil across the core but I never got more out than in. the output was a big cap with light bulb across it.

The orientation suggested by the patent seems to be the best, when sliding the coil towards the gap side there is a point where current draw is minimum, like a balance point, also dependent on the gap space. But with magnets on I never got close to the efficiency of the setup without magnets, which basically becomes a buck converter, or solid state bedini charger which can be up to about 85%. I tried low and higher frequencies. Also the coil got very hot with the magnets on.
Has anyone else played with this besides Romerouk?

Btw, Bolt I've dropped you a PM a while ago about the VARs, don't know if you got that.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 14, 2011, 09:47:33 PM


Here is my version from the previous Falstad sim that I wrote.


 In reality it is the circuit I posted, only with 555's

 When you rework a posted circuit you give credit, as I did.

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 14, 2011, 10:51:06 PM
@Popolibero,
Tried many different magnet types. Natural and tuned resonance. Many frequencies. Square and sine. Different levels of core insertion. But I am not finished as of yet.
Otto posted this and I have a coil based on this sent to me by Moab.

You get the gauge, length, and frequency just right and it is the flux manipulation technique.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 15, 2011, 12:22:17 AM
btw, Bolt I've dropped you a PM a while ago about the VARs, don't know if you got that.


Yes i did thanks and i read all your tests its looks very interesting. I still haven't had time to watch your YT vids yet as the internet for me this last weekend was very slow and take forever to load so i was going to reply after i seen them. I have been getting a LOT of PM's lately so sorry if i cant answer them all but i do read them. I prefer them in public on relevant forum so i don't have to keep answering the same questions over and over unless of course its a really private matter.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 15, 2011, 09:03:38 AM
Quote
Yes i did thanks and i read all your tests its looks very interesting. I still haven't had time to watch your YT vids yet as the internet for me this last weekend was very slow and take forever to load so i was going to reply after i seen them. I have been getting a LOT of PM's lately so sorry if i cant answer them all but i do read them. I prefer them in public on relevant forum so i don't have to keep answering the same questions over and over unless of course its a really private matter.

Bolt, I think you must have confused me with someone else lol as I'm not sure what texts and vids you are referring to. My PM was called "wake up tool". I didn't post here as I didn't want to be off topic.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 15, 2011, 12:20:32 PM
@popolibero
The coil in Magnacoasters setup is most important.The magnets used are also important, you must match the coil with the magnets used.When the single magnet on the gap side is close to the core should attract to the coil even if it is in repulsion because attraction to the core, then when power is applied should push that magnet away.If the coil is not right and powerful enough then it will not create enough gain when the power applied returns to zero.
Suggestion:
Make a coil with 2 layers of wire then continue making another 2 but only on half of the coil, on the side where you have the gap.This way you will get stronger field on that side where you need to cancel the magnet.
The coil does get hot after some time that's why Richard is using oil cooling.
I have been working on this setup since Richard posted his first results but still without having more than 1.7 -1.8 .
We need a bit more than 2 then we are in business.
I got best results with the mecanical setup not with the solid state.
Success,

Romero
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 15, 2011, 05:42:54 PM
@Romerouk,
Thanks for the explanation. I kind of see what you are talking about.
Just a suggestion. If you could use windows paint program to just draw blocks over lapping. This would make any explanation more clear then you can focus on specificity quicker. I tend to try to over mentalize and get the wrong idea. No different than most of us.  :D

I use Visio. That lets you then move items individually to accomodate any adjustmentment.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 15, 2011, 09:17:24 PM
@l_ron,
Thanks for the zero crossing circuit.
I posted 555s because this is a predominant item in most inventories. Was just trying to accomodate quick prototyping at no monetary outlay.

I interpreted your response to the Falstad script as 'My bad'. I didn't take into account the complexity this might prove to most. I tend to shy away from simulators also but in this case it proved invaluable to expidite another version of your circuit.

Also when I mention the 'I' word I am not claiming ownership or plagerism. Never. I was only expressing effort to present an alternative solution even though it used more parts. My goal is always to get more out there quicker.

If anybody was offended I apologize.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 15, 2011, 09:32:47 PM
Just a note on Bob Boyce.  Its my understanding after dissecting all the info i can find on it that the toroidal thing he uses is wired as a  3 phase transformer in essence driven by processor for control of very narrow PWM pulses, amplitude  and frequency control. The HF ferrite transformer is driven out of phase to create very high VARS and the cell sits in series with another inductor with a cap across it to make alike RF tuned circuit. This is basic RV technology.

Bob says the overall system from DC to gas has a COP around 3-5 typical. The only reason i mention this is because i seen reference to Bob's stuff having a COP > 1000 and this it not true.  So his devices puts on par with a good MEG but falls way short of Kapanadze COP 100 and the real TPU and VTA has a COP > 1000. Anything with a COP 5 or over should be capable of looping very easy.

Bolt, where do you get the figure of 5?  From what I've heard , or what's in the documents I've managed to scrounge up, indicates that Boyce's device could potentially be really high COP if done properly.  I'll go with a COP = 5 though since you seem to have more information than I do.


Quote
Although many people have produced COP 1.2 or 1.8 etc within well tuned Joule Thief's, Bedini wheels and chargers etc you cant loop till you get a COP 2 plus losses to loop it usually means in practice at least COP 2.5  and even then its twitchy as hell to get a motor/gen looped at low COP and will have no power to drive anything else other than barely keep itself going.

Thanks, this is great information.   


I'm trying to figure out how to do the Boyce TPU pulses and phase properly with microcontroller interrupts.  It's hard because on a 16Mhz/20Mhz Atmel the fastest you can interrupt is around 37ns.   But if you want phase control with resolution of 1-3ns then you have do calculate your phase correction over multiple frequency cycles (calculate pulse wave phase over multiple microcontroller interrupts).   

This is for a wave with around 1% duty cycle btw, so for example 500ns on and around 49.5us off.   I suppose actually , thinking about it now, that you could do this within a single interrupt cycle , but I need to start playing with Atmel assembler and my scope.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 15, 2011, 10:06:22 PM
@l_ron,
Thanks for the zero crossing circuit.
I posted 555s because this is a predominant item in most inventories. Was just trying to accomodate quick prototyping at no monetary outlay.

I interpreted your response to the Falstad script as 'My bad'.

If anybody was offended I apologize.

Apologies accepted. The zero crossing was a published circuit to which I provided the link. The one shot and gated oscillator are standard circuits.

You had said you were going to put this into Falstad with 555's and then gave the code... fine, but then when the schematic was posted some time later, credit was given to Falstad. That is what I felt was wrong.

One of the problems in using 555's for this circuit is they require a negative going trigger. Whereas the 4047 can trigger on either a negative or a positive logic, while requiring only one cap and one resistor, and a fraction of the drive current. Same with the 4093.  But then, people love their 555's

Ok, on with the show

Ron

 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 16, 2011, 12:00:25 AM
@Romerouk,
Thanks for the explanation. I kind of see what you are talking about.
Just a suggestion. If you could use windows paint program to just draw blocks over lapping. This would make any explanation more clear then you can focus on specificity quicker. I tend to try to over mentalize and get the wrong idea. No different than most of us.  :D

I use Visio. That lets you then move items individually to accomodate any adjustmentment.
Here is how I have Magnacoasters coil.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 16, 2011, 12:55:32 AM
@Romerouk, all

OKay so that diagram makes sense, but what are the winding directions, and do they matter?   And that winding looks CCW with respect to the left of the diagram, but why is the output wire coming off the end?

Wouldn't a CCW winding go down the core to the end, then come back say 20% of the core, then be taken off as output lead?

What is the core material?  (Ferrite?  Powdered Iron?   Rusty Nail?)

I see a 1cm gap to the right of the image, but what about to the left of the image?  Is there a gap there, or does the core touch the magnet on the left?

What is the diameter of the core?

How many total leads come off the windings on the core (2 leads?  4 leads?)?

What is the strength and composition of the magnets?

etc

Thanks,
Feynman

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 16, 2011, 01:13:03 AM
"Bolt, where do you get the figure of 5?  From what I've heard , or what's in the documents I've managed to scrounge up, indicates that Boyce's device could potentially be really high COP if done properly.  I'll go with a COP = 5 though since you seem to have more information than I do."

Watch the Bob Boyce DVD/Vid on google about his stuff he mentions in the vid that his 3 phase toroid produces a total DC to Gas COP of about 4-5.

With the exception of trying a few different core materials the construction using special silver litz wire and covered in bees wax etc is just an expensive waste of time.  In fact i will go so far to say you can get excellent VARS and ferromagnetic resonance by pinging a standard 3 phase transformer ..and the bigger the better. When its close for too heavy to lift its big enough. A 50/60Hz transformer will tend to go into very high ferro-resonance around 150-600Hz with 5% duty cycle so look around there. It must be tuned VERY carefully using 450VAC motor run caps.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 16, 2011, 01:21:30 AM
"I have been working on this setup since Richard posted his first results but still without having more than 1.7 -1.8 .
We need a bit more than 2 then we are in business."

Exactly, so you see as i mentioned just before in earlier post it is not so hard to attain a COP of 1.2-1.9 as can be done with many methods but breaking the looping barrier plus recover losses about a COP of 2.5 is a tough cookie!  You must get this by using caps and SS switches to pulse on off loads.

That said you have already made a good Energy Power Saving device for solar charging etc. and its OU but of course don't try and convince anyone thru measurements its just a waste of precious time and energy.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 16, 2011, 02:01:25 AM
@Romerouk,
Great Pic! The 4 layer wrap at the end is pure genius for who ever thought that up.  :D
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 16, 2011, 02:27:11 AM
@Romerouk, all

OKay so that diagram makes sense, but what are the winding directions, and do they matter?   And that winding looks CCW with respect to the left of the diagram, but why is the output wire coming off the end?

Wouldn't a CCW winding go down the core to the end, then come back say 20% of the core, then be taken off as output lead?

What is the core material?  (Ferrite?  Powdered Iron?   Rusty Nail?)

I see a 1cm gap to the right of the image, but what about to the left of the image?  Is there a gap there, or does the core touch the magnet on the left?

What is the diameter of the core?

How many total leads come off the windings on the core (2 leads?  4 leads?)?

What is the strength and composition of the magnets?

etc

Thanks,
Feynman
The winding is normal from left to the right then back for the second layer then when finished the second layer jump with the wire to the half of the core and continue winding in the same direction.When we get to the right hand side continue winding to the left but now only to the half of the coil where you stop and continue winding again to the right.Direction for the winding not very important, just test the coil to get attraction on the left and repulsion on the right.You might have NN or SS, depending of the coil winding.
On the left hand side the magnet is in contact with the core.
The wire I used is 1mm, not sure how many turns (about 150) but make sure you have 2 full layers then another 2 to the half of the coil.You can try even more layers on the right hand side, that will make that side stronger.
The core I use is ferrite 2.5cm square , might work with other materials too.
The magnets I use are 5 x 5/2.5/1 cm on the left side and 1x 5/2.5/1 cm on the right hand side, all neodymium n48.
We have 2 wires comming out as from a normal coil.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 16, 2011, 02:32:23 AM
@Romerouk,
Great Pic! The 4 layer wrap at the end is pure genius for who ever thought that up.  :D
I thought that after trying many different windings and realised that I need much stronger field to cancel the magnet field.Maybe more windings on the right hand side will do better, I must make a new coil and try but for now I am still working on the shorting coil setup.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 16, 2011, 02:50:16 AM
I thought that after trying many different windings and realised that I need much stronger field to cancel the magnet field.Maybe more windings on the right hand side will do better, I must make a new coil and try but for now I am still working on the shorting coil setup.

So just to reiterate for the record can you say again what COP you got from this about 1.7? The reason i ask i know this can work given bench time and money to get the details ironed out but so many people have said for years magnacoaster can not work and its a hoax.  I love you to put the record straight that your tests have shown it CAN go OU.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 16, 2011, 03:11:48 AM
So just to reiterate for the record can you say again what COP you got from this about 1.7? The reason i ask i know this can work given bench time and money to get the details ironed out but so many people have said for years magnacoaster can not work and its a hoax.  I love you to put the record straight that your tests have shown it CAN go OU.
I have got about 1.7 COP with the mechanical version.I have tested the solid state version too but with simillar results. People where talking here about Magnacoasters and I posted my results.I don't think this one is a hoax but ofcourse, this is my opinion not a crime.This is the reason we are here, to share info.
I have got those results without this type of coil I posted early and after playing with the setup from GAP Power I built this type of coil and got much better results. Since then, I have not done proper measurements but I am confident that this coil will increase the COP.
People should try this type of coil even in other setups and see the results.

All the best,
RomeroUK
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 16, 2011, 03:23:58 AM
So each time you wind a half layer you jump back to the middle instead of winding back and forth?

But either way this is so simple to throw two dislike coils on a iron wire. And small too.

I be on dis kwikly. :D

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: bolt on March 16, 2011, 03:57:05 AM
I have got about 1.7 COP with the mechanical version.I have tested the solid state version too but with simillar results. People where talking here about Magnacoasters and I posted my results.I don't think this one is a hoax but ofcourse, this is my opinion not a crime.This is the reason we are here, to share info.
I have got those results without this type of coil I posted early and after playing with the setup from GAP Power I built this type of coil and got much better results. Since then, I have not done proper measurements but I am confident that this coil will increase the COP.
People should try this type of coil even in other setups and see the results.

All the best,
RomeroUK

VERY well done. That is good news but some of us knew this can work as it was patented LONG before magnacoaster even thought  about it. As you say if you can squeeze a bit more out of it passing COP 2 is damn hard but i think it can be done with cap load switching and perhaps the coil shorting on top of this will help some more.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 16, 2011, 05:44:16 AM
@bolt

Quote
Watch the Bob Boyce DVD/Vid on google about his stuff he mentions in the vid that his 3 phase toroid produces a total DC to Gas COP of about 4-5.
-bolt

Thanks bolt. I'll check out the DVD tonight. Just for the record, I'm not talking about the Boyce gas thing, I'm talking about the Boyce TPU in rotational or vortex mode (with biased pulsed B-field) and pulses of 1% duty cycle 120 degrees Out-of-phase.  ie. pulses 500ns on, 49.5us off.   Aka. The thing that apparently can self-destruct and vaporize itself, induce lightning strikes, etc.  See this link:

http://feynmanslab.com/docs/tpu/Bob_Boyce_TPU.pdf (http://feynmanslab.com/docs/tpu/Bob_Boyce_TPU.pdf)

And this discussion, where Boyce comes on the thread and has a meltdown over his patent rights, and bitches everyone out:

http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?496-Bob-Boyce-Hex-Controller-Edited-02-01-2011 (http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?496-Bob-Boyce-Hex-Controller-Edited-02-01-2011)

Your transformer idea is a good one. I'll try to see if I can snag a 3phase powdered iron core / steel core transformer.  I'm still going to construct a Boyce TPU replication though.


Quote
"With the exception of trying a few different core materials the construction using special silver litz wire and covered in bees wax etc is just an expensive waste of time. "
-bolt

I agree regarding the core material ... I think the powdered iron core transformer might be important , because ferrite has too high a permeability.  Boyce even says in that PDF that he couldn't get the effect to work with ferrite.  This might be due to scalar magnetic impulses, which we don't know much about.  That's what I'm after -- experimenting with rotating Tesla scalar waves in a toroid.

Perhaps the SM TPU was an Air-core device which used rotating Tesla scalar waves.

That said, I think the wire material and the winding geometry is also important.


Quote
"A 50/60Hz transformer will tend to go into very high ferro-resonance around 150-600Hz with 5% duty cycle so look around there"
-bolt

I think 5% duty cycle might be too much current for what I'm looking for (scalar impulses).  I want really short (100ns - 800ns ON pulses of DC, ~49.5us OFF).  I don't think ferroresonance is the same effect as the Boyce TPU.  But you might be right.  I'm looking to get a rotating magnetic scalar impulse, perhaps even some sort of rotating scalar vortex, so  I want the geometry to be -perfect-.

That's why I want to build the toroid myself .. to military specs.  I want to use the good Teflon coated silver plated copper wire, mainly because Teflon is an excellent insulator/dielectric (it was invented by Dupont and used at Hanford on the Mahanattan Project).   That way, during experiments, I can drive the input primary coils up to 1kV if I want.   Furthermore, as you probably know, Silver has the best heat and electrical conductivity of any element.

So anyway, if I end up wasting my time building a good toroidal wound core, I will send you a free Arduino microcontroller and you can tell me 'told you so' , haha.   

Cheers,
Feynman
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 16, 2011, 05:48:29 AM
@romerouk

Wow , great explanation.  I'm really impressed with your ideas and I believe your claim of COP of 1.7.   I hope you don't mind if I write them up in a PDF.

I think the idea around here is to get a successful device which we can loop (self-runner)  ,  and then open-source the design , like Linux.

I really appreciate the time and effort you've taken to explain this to me.   I will attempt replication.     Do you have schematics of the driver circuit?  If so , are you willing to release them publicly?  (forgive me if you've already posted them).

Oh also, what's the permeability (u) of your ferrite?  Or at least a part number perhaps...  sometimes this is important, see Naudin's 2SGen where he measures hysteresis curves..

Perhaps we can get the device to COP=2.5 by utilizing an Arduino microcontroller somehow?  These are cheap (<$30), widely available, and can be programmed in Wiring -- a form of Java.

Arduino -- the $30 Microcontroller you can program in Java
http://arduino.cc/ (http://arduino.cc/)

All the best,
Feynman
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 16, 2011, 09:16:47 AM
So each time you wind a half layer you jump back to the middle instead of winding back and forth?

But either way this is so simple to throw two dislike coils on a iron wire. And small too.

I be on dis kwikly. :D
Each time you wind a half layer you don't jump but continue winding back and forth.It can be done that way too but not necessary here.
The ferrite core I used is I100/25/25 – 3C90, more info about it here: http://www.surplussales.com/inductors/FerPotC/FerPotC-5.html
@Feynman
If you want to put it in a PDF please do.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 16, 2011, 11:58:20 AM
Hi Romero,

You wrote:  "I have got about 1.7 COP with the mechanical version. I have tested the solid state version too but with simillar results."
Would like to ask when you tested the solid state version what was your load?  An incandescent lamp?  I mean how did you estimate the COP of 1.6-1.7?  Not 'nitpicking' here, just wondering on a possible looping with a correct AC/DC or DC/DC converter with a 85-90% efficiency still seems feasable. 
So if you could give some more details on the solid state version, that would be great, including the coil heat issue too. With a COP of 1.6-1.7, can it work for a longer time without getting too hot?

Thanks
Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 16, 2011, 12:58:38 PM
Hi Romero,

You wrote:  "I have got about 1.7 COP with the mechanical version. I have tested the solid state version too but with simillar results."
Would like to ask when you tested the solid state version what was your load?  An incandescent lamp?  I mean how did you estimate the COP of 1.6-1.7?  Not 'nitpicking' here, just wondering on a possible looping with a correct AC/DC or DC/DC converter with a 85-90% efficiency still seems feasable. 
So if you could give some more details on the solid state version, that would be great, including the coil heat issue too. With a COP of 1.6-1.7, can it work for a longer time without getting too hot?

Thanks
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
I was using a bulb as the load in both versions but not connected directly to the bridge rectifier.
I have modified a computer PSU and the output from the bridge rectifier is applied to the PSU.
This way worked best for me.I have used this trick to modify a computer PSU in other experiments and I got best results.
The coil gets very hot in about 20-25 minutes in the solid state version but the mechanical version works for about 40-50 minutes before starting to get burn smell, maybe it takes longer before is too hot because of the air flow from the rotating wheel that cools it down a bit.
No selfloop at this moment.
Another problem I found is the diodes and bridge rectifier.Most of them are not capable to forward all power resulting in at least 20-30% loses. One of the picture posted by Richard shown a board with many bridge rectifiers connected in parallel,... why is that?
I have used different diode types and the last experiments I have used BY255 with the best results so far. Every time I add another diode in parallel with an existing once I get a bit more power output without affecting the input. In my test I used 5 diodes in parallel in all setup and I runout, no more diodes :) Maybe other diodes will do better , can you suggest something?
I am not sure that dimensions of the coil are the best.In my case I get the best results at about 58-60KHz, depending of the coil used.
Driver of the coil is not standard too. Switching is not sharp enough from any electronic circuits used then I decided to use a reed activated by a coil(I got one small coil with reed inside) and that reed drives a SS DC Relay.
If I drive the relay from the same source directly, without the reed I get much less COP and the coil gets hot much faster.
I hope people understand what I am talking about.
The Magnacoaster patent has 2 diodes connected wrong, the ones comming from the coil to the output rectifier.

All the best,
Romero
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 16, 2011, 02:59:26 PM
Hi Romerouk,

a diode tipically has a 1V voltage drop, if you put more in parallel the drop gets smaller, a bit like if you put resistors in parallel. Diodes mean losses, especially if working at a low voltage like 12V! In fact it would be way more efficient using a smaller gauge wire for the coil that does the same magnetic field but with less amps and more voltage...

I'll write more later when I have time.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 16, 2011, 03:59:49 PM
....
Another problem I found is the diodes and bridge rectifier.Most of them are not capable to forward all power resulting in at least 20-30% loses. One of the picture posted by Richard shown a board with many bridge rectifiers connected in parallel,... why is that?
I have used different diode types and the last experiments I have used BY255 with the best results so far. Every time I add another diode in parallel with an existing once I get a bit more power output without affecting the input. In my test I used 5 diodes in parallel in all setup and I runout, no more diodes :) Maybe other diodes will do better , can you suggest something?

Hi Romero,

Fast or ultrafast type diodes are better at the frequencies you mention than the BY255 (which is a normal 50/60Hz type rectifier with trr=3usec reverse recovery time  http://maxdiode.com/Uploadpdf/BY250%20THRU%20BY255.pdf )
The reason you found better output when paralleling them is that their forward voltage drop get reduced, as Mario mentioned,  the reducement can be anything from say 60mV-80mV per diode, this is also nonlinear, in case of 5 paralleled diodes you may have got 0.7V loss instead of a single diode of say 1V.
At Farnell you may find the BY500-600 fast diode type (600V/5A, trr=200nsec price 0.191Ł one piece, order#1651065), this is much faster and has 1.35V loss at 5A (your BY255 has 1V loss at 3A) so at 3A this diode can be better if you also parallel 5 of them.

Best solution would be to use syncronous rectifiers: these are controlled MOSFET switches, see Fig. 3 in this link: http://www.national.com/vcm/national3/en_US/resources/power_designer/national_power_designer112.pdf

Will return to this later.

rgds,  Gyula

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 16, 2011, 05:18:42 PM
popolibero:
"In fact it would be way more efficient using a smaller gauge wire for the coil that does the same magnetic field but with less amps and more voltage..."

Strongly disagree. What is actually needed is:

ultra low resistance across *all* the components
ultra low inductance
ultra low HF losses

This means tech along the lines of RF class
cores, litz wire windings, physical switching and so on.

This is from hands-on experience with the system.

The perfect system would consist of:
- superconductive winding that is totally compensated with according capacitance
- zero hystersis core
- 10ns class switching

gyulasun:
"Fast or ultrafast type diodes"

UF4007 rocks. And you can parallel them also...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 16, 2011, 05:56:08 PM
Quote
- 10ns class switching

lulz how about the DRF1200  pewpew


DRF1200 MOSFET/driver hybrid

The DRF1200 MOSFET driver hybrid. This hybrid includes a high power gate driver and
the power MOSFET. It was designed to provide the system designer increased flexibility
and lowered cost over a non-integrated solution

DRIVER FEATURES
• Switching Frequency: DC TO 30MHz
• Low Pulse Width Distortion
• Single Power Supply
• 3V CMOS Schmitt Trigger Input 1V
Hysteresis
• Drivers > 3nF

MOSFET FEATURES
• Switching Frequency: DC TO 30MHz
• Switching Speed 3-4ns
• BVds = 1kV
• Ids = 13A avg.
• Rds(on) ≤ 1 Ohm
• PD = 350W

http://www.microsemi.com/datasheets/DRF1200_A.pdf

only problem is its $$200  :*(
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 16, 2011, 06:02:51 PM
Hi Romero,

Fast or ultrafast type diodes are better at the frequencies you mention than the BY255 (which is a normal 50/60Hz type rectifier with trr=3usec reverse recovery time  http://maxdiode.com/Uploadpdf/BY250%20THRU%20BY255.pdf )
The reason you found better output when paralleling them is that their forward voltage drop get reduced, as Mario mentioned,  the reducement can be anything from say 60mV-80mV per diode, this is also nonlinear, in case of 5 paralleled diodes you may have got 0.7V loss instead of a single diode of say 1V.
At Farnell you may find the BY500-600 fast diode type (600V/5A, trr=200nsec price 0.191Ł one piece, order#1651065), this is much faster and has 1.35V loss at 5A (your BY255 has 1V loss at 3A) so at 3A this diode can be better if you also parallel 5 of them.

Best solution would be to use syncronous rectifiers: these are controlled MOSFET switches, see Fig. 3 in this link: http://www.national.com/vcm/national3/en_US/resources/power_designer/national_power_designer112.pdf

Will return to this later.

rgds,  Gyula


I had seen a setup that mosfets were configured to act like diodes. It was very simple, ill see if I can find.

Maybe they could be controlled with timing.  A solid state commutator.

Thats interesting that diodes in parallel can lower the voltage drop of diodes. Never heard that till now. Im surprised that parallel works at all. If we had an led with a limit resistor, it would light when V is applied. But 2 leds paralleled with 1 resistor in series, only one would light. All due to the fact that each led is slightly off tolerance from the next. The one with the lower V drop will be the one that turns on and the other not.  Maybe it is due to the resistor and rectifier diodes are different.

How many volts are we looking at here going through the diodes? If it is high, the dif between .7 and 1 volt drops should make very little difference. But if they do work in parallel, I would have to say that amperage capabilities would help keep the diodes cool, and maybe it is heat that causes the loss. I have had some hot rectifiers before, and maybe I should go back and try increasing the amperage with parallel diodes to see if I was missing something.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 16, 2011, 06:04:26 PM
Getting way too complicated...
Small gauge wire, low current means smacking the coil very fast with high potential or a resonance pulse. SM and Willis showed very simple low component count.
Think Radio shack.
No egos, arguing or technical jargon. I am sure there are other high level ways to do this based on corporate or lab experience. But only a few of us have the simplicity on the benches that has shown the intense power of potential and not driving power. Intense potential is kinetic whereas intense power is current. Most of the experience in the these forums has been power trained and not potential trained. Sorry to step on toes here.

We are converting potential to power not the other way around.

With the correct coil setup 12vdc @ 300ma can cripple unshielded devices at a distance. Think about those physics instead of junction anomolies or device specifications.

The test I did many times in many configurations was to apply a stun gun circuit to the driver coil. The simplicity of this circuit can be made from Radio Shack. The parts come right off the rack including the little audio transformer.
Just add the Kunel patent configuration to this mix. Once again this makes and keeps it simple. SM mentioned 5khz audio frequency.

Special cores? Well the input parameters have to precise to match the core lattice makeup. This works but you are building a low grade nuclear rector in a specific operating range with a specific and precise inputs.

Otherwise this thread will go rocket science and drama like all the others.

SM talked about simplicity but was obscure. The Willis device shows simplicity. Hell, he didn't even try to hide it. He can't based on the Kunel patent.
He was so proud of what he had in the kitchen he was dancing around, jubilent in bare feet. He has a Canadian municipal contract. Good for him. A great way to get this out there is to use the government against itself. That is how giants fall...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 16, 2011, 06:19:48 PM
Feynman:

>Switching Speed 3-4ns

good

>BVds = 1kV

on the edge

> Rds(on) ≤ 1 Ohm

bad

***

BTW One of the the reasons NOT to have many turns / high resistance winding is when you DO interrupt the current in 10ns and for some reason fail to provide preset voltage load that can absorb all the energy in an instant (low resistance!) you will see all you stuff burn to hell like romerouk did.

What you DO need is many turns (in form of litz wire strands) / low resistance (in form of few windings) / high capacitance (in form of n-filar) winding. For example litz wire in n-filar configuration. :P

These are the very basics. No follow - no candy.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 16, 2011, 06:36:41 PM
Quote
> Rds(on) ≤ 1 Ohm

bad

Can you explain this to me why this is bad in more detail.  1 ohm is pretty low resistance, so you are talking fractions of an ohm being necessary?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 16, 2011, 06:54:07 PM
A higher complex attempt at simplicity

@yssuraxu_,
I see what you are saying about the low windings. I was looking at it from a high current draw and not the collapse specs you mentioned. Thanks.

I have a spool of Litz to put in the configuration.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 16, 2011, 07:24:33 PM
Well, strongly disagree too. If you need to create a certain strength of magnetic field with a coil in this application to work with certain permanent magnets, you can get it with low volt high amps and low impedance coil, OR you can get the same with higher volts lower amps higher impedance coil. With the second you'll loose less through the diodes. This is simple electromagnetics.
A UF5408 is an even better diode.

Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 16, 2011, 07:27:28 PM
Can you explain this to me why this is bad in more detail.  1 ohm is pretty low resistance, so you are talking fractions of an ohm being necessary?

Yep. Fractions. You want your system to have have capability of almost instantly bulding up large current. Just think about shorting the lets say 5uF 220V cap. Screwdriver = proper mini-EMP. Couple of your average thin connection wires with alligators - little sparkie if any.

Currently I'm having huge success with pulse motor drive module following these principles. It already works starting at slightly below 0.1V input. That should speak for itself :) (using classical approach absolute minimum was 1V). At for example 16V it has superb mechanical output AND very little average current usage. How does this click with LV/HC windings? It is driven by mini-EMP bursts that last only a fraction of "normal" cycle and in additon to that most of the flyback gets recycled.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 16, 2011, 07:37:23 PM
If you need to create a certain strength of magnetic field with a coil in this application to work with certain permanent magnets,

Dynamic characteristics of HV/LC coil you propose are not acceptable for current application because coil is not usable at HF.
LV/HC coil topology I propose is perfectly adequate for HF. The strength is given in form of EMP.

Nothing personal :) Just the truth.

Edit: UF4007 is just an example and I found it to give most output when rectifying shorted coil output with diodes at hand @ ~200V. It is absolutely not suitable for LV/HC part of the circuit, unless you have very tiny setup and/or 1V drop is not a problem.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 16, 2011, 08:03:58 PM
What I wrote is actually more for conventional trafo stuff. You're right that in this application we'd still want a low ohm/impedance coil, else we loose too much in the collapse. In this case taking advantage of higher volts thus less loss because of diode drops is still suitable. The only difference is that at higher voltage we have to increase the frequency (thus switch ON time) for same results. So we would end up with the same setup driven at say 100V instead of 12, and also a high voltage load, but the whole thing driven at a higher frequency. This would be more efficient than a 12V system.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 16, 2011, 10:06:42 PM
Hi Mags,

I have to tell (I know you are aware of this  :) ) that generally it is not good to parallel rectifier diodes UNLESS you can select some out of several for nearly equal forward voltage drop at the load current. I agree with what you wrote on the paralleled LEDs.
If someone chooses a rectifier diode type that meets the current and voltage requirements for a task, then there is no problem if the diodes to be paralleled are unselected for a (nearly) uniform forward voltage drop, so paralleling them bring the benefit of less voltage drop. I agree the UF4007 type mentioned here sounds a better choice (a single UF4007 is rated 1000V at 1A and ultra fast) but studying its data sheet it has 1.7V drop at 1A current! ( http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/UF/UF4007.pdf )
So paralleling them is a must but maybe searching for another type is also good idea in this case, depending on the actual AC voltage-current amplitudes involved.
I have access to an old transistor curve tracer at work and tested some diodes placed in parallel that is why I wrote those mV values above to Romero. OF course the best way of reducing forward voltage drop is to use low barrier Shottky types, problem with them is they are not high voltage rated (normally under 80 - 100V). PC power supplies have them on their output side (5V, 12V rectifiers placed on heat sinks).
On the heat issue: yes, using paralleled diodes improves the dissipation burden of the individual diodes, remember also that when junction temp is increasing, forward voltage drop is reducing.

Re on MOSFETs used as diodes: see Figure 193 in PDF file Page 193 of this link for the simplest but practical full wave MOSFET rectifier:
http://www.ieeta.pt/~alex/docs/ApplicationNotes/Rectifier%20Applications%20Handbook.pdf

The drawback is you have to make a center tap on the coil and also two small extra coils for controlling (switching) the gates of the MOSFETs (dots show proper phasing of the voltages for the correct control). Basically the body diodes are shunted by the ON resistance of the MOSFET in the correct time so that the voltage drop can be estimated by Ohms Law. IF you use say a RDSon=50 milliOhm FET, then at 2A load current the voltage drop is Vd=2A*0.05 Ohm=0.1V instead of an Si diode's 0.7-0.8V or higher voltage drop.
Here is another good (4 page) paper on this:
http://elth.ucv.ro/fisiere/anale/2007/194.pdf

A full wave bridge can also be made by 4 MOSFETs, however their control circuits becomes a bit involved. I showed an article on such here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6116.msg141191#msg141191  and a direct link to that Electronic Design article is here:
http://electronicdesign.com/print/power/-greener-rectifier-loses-the-diodes-adds-power-mos.aspx 

Gyula



I had seen a setup that mosfets were configured to act like diodes. It was very simple, ill see if I can find.

Maybe they could be controlled with timing.  A solid state commutator.

Thats interesting that diodes in parallel can lower the voltage drop of diodes. Never heard that till now. Im surprised that parallel works at all. If we had an led with a limit resistor, it would light when V is applied. But 2 leds paralleled with 1 resistor in series, only one would light. All due to the fact that each led is slightly off tolerance from the next. The one with the lower V drop will be the one that turns on and the other not.  Maybe it is due to the resistor and rectifier diodes are different.

How many volts are we looking at here going through the diodes? If it is high, the dif between .7 and 1 volt drops should make very little difference. But if they do work in parallel, I would have to say that amperage capabilities would help keep the diodes cool, and maybe it is heat that causes the loss. I have had some hot rectifiers before, and maybe I should go back and try increasing the amperage with parallel diodes to see if I was missing something.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 17, 2011, 01:47:55 AM
Hey Guyla

Thanks for the response.  ;]

Here is another example.   I have another, looking for it.

http://mackys.livejournal.com/928372.html

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 17, 2011, 01:50:11 AM
This is from the link on that page.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 17, 2011, 01:58:48 AM
One more. It uses a fet to replace the germanium diode in a crystal set. =]

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 17, 2011, 02:41:53 AM
Would add a note about Tesla bifilar vs regular coils. While for drive coil one certainly wants low inductance and fast response and Tesla bifilars are in business, it is a bit mixed bag with shorting coil.

If you look from one side - when shorting there must be rapid current buildup - low inductance helps with that.
If you look from other side - when unshorting there must be large backspike - high inductance helps with that.

So it is very complex problem with multiple variables. I guess some smart dude must do a dynamic über-coil that morphes between low and high inductances inside on shorting cycle :P

For example in the military they get kicks out of charging up big inductance and then get EMP by shorting individual turns step by step.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flux_compression_generator_2.png
Hmmm......
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Goat on March 17, 2011, 06:21:56 AM
Would add a note about Tesla bifilar vs regular coils. While for drive coil one certainly wants low inductance and fast response and Tesla bifilars are in business, it is a bit mixed bag with shorting coil.

If you look from one side - when shorting there must be rapid current buildup - low inductance helps with that.
If you look from other side - when unshorting there must be large backspike - high inductance helps with that.

So it is very complex problem with multiple variables. I guess some smart dude must do a dynamic über-coil that morphes between low and high inductances inside on shorting cycle :P

For example in the military they get kicks out of charging up big inductance and then get EMP by shorting individual turns step by step.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flux_compression_generator_2.png
Hmmm......

@ yssuraxu_697

Thank you for your input on the Tesla bifilar vs regular coils and the Flux compression generator.

I have been thinking on various Tesla variations of his "Pancake bifilar coils" and the variations of such coils as opposed to normal solenoid coils and also any other coils like stepped or others, I can't help to think that we have barely started to explore in a scientific way what every coil once charged and shorted in the appropriate manner might return to load and source, is there really any extra energy in the right circuit?

As far as the Flux compression generator I can't help to think that there must be energy coming from the high explosive coming into the picture.  The only way to know for sure would be to exclude the high explosive and arrange a mechanical or electronic method to short the coil windings in succession as the high explosive would do.

Could we use diodes or other transistor devices, FET/Zener or other in between coil windings to start a shorting the coil windings in an avalanche?

If you look at shorting a coil such as the secondary of Tesla's patent 609, 250 (see below) for instance, how could one operate the charge/discharge while driving it into a load and feeding back to the source instead of  a single discharge into a spark, can we convert it back to the source with energy to spare?

Hope this makes sense...if not please ignore this post, just thinking ;P

Edit:  I also just thought of something that might be of interest as far as shorting coils.  What about Edward Leedskalnin's Permanent Magnet Holder (PMH), isn't that the same principle of the charge/(short) hold/discharge cycle as what we're discussing here?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: MasterPlaster on March 17, 2011, 10:45:12 AM
For example in the military they get kicks out of charging up big inductance and then get EMP by shorting individual turns step by step.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flux_compression_generator_2.png
Hmmm......

Thank you.

More details here:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/pubs/00326620.pdf
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 17, 2011, 12:26:01 PM
Hehe, looks like you catch the drift ;)
And as always, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME ;)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: MasterPlaster on March 17, 2011, 01:40:18 PM
In relation to the above, how about this?

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: MasterPlaster on March 17, 2011, 02:26:16 PM
And even this one:

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: baroutologos on March 17, 2011, 03:59:11 PM
Quote
Hehe, looks like you catch the drift ;)
And as always, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME ;)


Hey,

have you any hands on experience with that concept?
have you ever assembled any device based on the shorting concept or gradual-shorting/  unshorting concept or just you are theorize.

We must have a vivid idea of what it is being discussed here.

Thanks
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 17, 2011, 04:11:38 PM
>have you ever assembled any device based on the shorting concept or gradual-shorting/  unshorting concept or just you are theoriz

Shorting/unshorting yes, gradual-shorting/unshorting no. If you do not like the gradual concept feel free to forget it, after all there was "DO NOT TRY IT" disclaimer, and I meant that :P

For those who like the concept and do not read disclaimers... I guess without experiments we cannot move further on this. I feel we have almost all lego pieces but do not 100% know yet how to put them together. Progress is like a spiral you know, you can see the next wind but no straight way there.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 17, 2011, 05:26:42 PM
Quote
I guess without experiments we cannot move further on this.

I agree.  I ran experiment the other night with Joule Thief over on OUR , but I'd like to do some coil shorting experiments.  I think it will help with my Boyce TPU replication.

Speaking of HV experiments, how do you guys deal with scoping potential output waveforms which might burn out your gear?

My frequency counter has max input of 30V, and my analog scope has peak of 1000V  (how do you guys keep from burning out your scopes / freq counters if you are dealing with 60V to 1000V P-P waveforms?)

Thanks,
Feynman
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: popolibero on March 17, 2011, 05:41:34 PM
Hi Romerouk,

thanks for all the details. I'm still experimenting with this. You said that the single magnet has to attract to the core even if in repulsion. Please tell if you get the same: let's say you have the 5 magnets + core in one hand and the single magnet in the other. If you approach the single magnet to the core even 10 or 15 cm away you can feel the repulsion. As you get closer the repulsion gets stronger till you get to about 1cm, there the single magnet seems to overcome the repulsion and starts being attracted to the core. There is a balance point right about there and this corresponds to minimum current draw. Move the single magnet in either direction and input current goes up.
Is this the same in your setup? 

You mentioned 58-60 kHz, did you mean Hz or kHz? I ask because even just going to frequencies of 20 kHz the magnets don't seem to have the slightest effect on the performance, like it would be without magnets (basically just a buck converter).

Also, what is your input power, maybe it only works above a certain threshold.

thanks,
Mario
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: teslaalset on March 17, 2011, 05:42:29 PM
>have you ever assembled any device based on the shorting concept or gradual-shorting/  unshorting concept or just you are theoriz

Shorting/unshorting yes, gradual-shorting/unshorting no. If you do not like the gradual concept feel free to forget it, after all there was "DO NOT TRY IT" disclaimer, and I meant that :P

For those who like the concept and do not read disclaimers... I guess without experiments we cannot move further on this. I feel we have almost all lego pieces but do not 100% know yet how to put them together. Progress is like a spiral you know, you can see the next wind but no straight way there.

yssuraxu_697,

You leave the impression that you have done a lot of research in this area.
Why not post some results?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 17, 2011, 05:55:17 PM
Speaking of HV experiments, how do you guys deal with scoping potential output waveforms which might burn out your gear?

100x probe (I have 2.5kV one, wasnt too expensive), and real careful with keeping the stuff properly grounded. There are also HV testleads for multimeters around. But I try to keep my experiments under 1000V so do not use them. Also I do not stick series ampermeters inside impulse systems, real easy to burn them even if average consumption of the system is 10mA :)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 17, 2011, 06:06:15 PM
@MasterPlaster,
Do you have the full document to the VIC.jpg pic?
I wonder if the gap between windings has to be specific to match some timing process. Or if the precession is just natural or... I can't even think how to propose this...

Here it is in a ring. I have one also.

So it seems there are many was to mangle the flux. Some more precise than others. And Mother nature will return the favor depending on how you ask.
The Magna coaster device looks to be a single stage.

In relation to the above, how about this?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 17, 2011, 06:17:01 PM
Why not post some results?

My experiments are small scale and focused on theoretical issues, this means that absolute efficency is not a goal (yet). Rather systematically comparing solution A efficency to solution B efficency and moving up the ladder. This may be unfamiliar approach to many "OU or nothing" researchers :)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: MasterPlaster on March 17, 2011, 07:45:23 PM
@GK

This was figure 10.4 of Stanley Meyer's Technical Brief:

http://www.free-energy-devices.com/P8.pdf

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 17, 2011, 08:14:05 PM
Thanks. I thought so when I saw the 2 terminals ending in water. Didn't want to search haphazardly. Using an EMP to crack the water molecule and use it at that point is his process. We don't store the H or O for later use like most of the experimenters try to do.

The (emp)erical (arh,arh,arh) plan looks like generating, managing and harvesting an EMP.
This would explain SM's TPU thumping. This is not new to me. The recent posts are verification of why I couldn't escape building EMP devices. I was hoping for something tamer for years. Guess I have to don my lead lined Dunlop man suit.

Good luck to all trying to find components to make the EMP faster. Huh???
We can collect with iron, steel, or magnetic flux. These mediums actually slow it down and magnetize to a greater level. With a coil around it then we can catch the perturbations or blow the crap out of magnets.

@GK

This was figure 10.4 of Stanley Meyer's Technical Brief:

http://www.free-energy-devices.com/P8.pdf
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: MasterPlaster on March 17, 2011, 08:26:06 PM
I am beggining to think that TPU worked on the same principal.
I remeber a comment "squeezing the electrons like a hose pipe"!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 17, 2011, 09:09:49 PM
The hose pipe is the core.

I was always looking to twisting the electrons in the core. Not so any more.

Stan states Resonant action produces the secondary form of activity called Particle-impact. This is the energy from the vacuum. This is the free energy. This is the action at a distance. This is the phase conjugation.

I am beggining to think that TPU worked on the same principal.
I remeber a comment "squeezing the electrons like a hose pipe"!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 17, 2011, 09:55:29 PM
Did basic test:

Common core, coils side by side with slight gap.
Shorting one coil does not change the inductance
of the other coil.

Common core, bifilar coil, shorting one strand lowers
the inductance of other.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 17, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
In your statement 'side by side' is that end to end? Just for clarification.
Side by side sounds like Leedskalnin PMH with U shaped core.

Did basic test:

Common core, coils side by side with slight gap.
Shorting one coil does not change the inductance
of the other coil.

Common core, bifilar coil, shorting one strand lowers
the inductance of other.

http://www.flixxy.com/zero-pollution-automobile.htm
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 18, 2011, 12:09:49 AM
In your statement 'side by side' is that end to end?

End to end, yep.

Did one more test. This Magnacoaster thing - biasing core with magets. Test core (steel bolt) was set up like this:

NS[ ||||| ||||| ]NS
Two windings, "end to end".
Not sure was it NS NS or SN SN, did not have compass at hand.

When I fed one winding with sine wave, then other winding registered distortion like this:
http://www.qscaudio.com/support/education/designing_line_arrays/images/sine_wave_distortion.png
Look red wave.

When I fed one winding with positive square impulses, the other winding received signal strength X.
When with negative square impulses, the other winding received signal strength X - 40%.

So it has prominent "magnetic diode" effect.

In all cases received signal was weaker when magnets were attached to core.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 18, 2011, 02:37:15 PM
Thought I would clarify a bit why I got so excited with this EMP stuff.

What was the party trick of Ismael Aviso?
   Shooting stuff up in the air.
How you do shoot stuff up in the air?
   EMP pulse.
How to make one from tiny average input?
   Capacitor discharge OR flux compression generator!

Also if one really wants to negotiate with strong neoydmiums on equal terms
there is need for another strong neodymium OR EMP pulse.

And the fact that I "discovered" with my pulse motor is that when you
drive it with mini-EMPs and very low resistance coils then for
short period of time one can treat ordinary wire as superconductor.
Meaning you get your EMP and also almost all of the energy is left,
because it will not dissipate in resistance like in classical approach.
And you can do with it all you want.

Also I would point out the Time Constant graph...
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14191/img/14191_30_2.jpg (http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14191/img/14191_30_2.jpg)
0.7TC point looks nice cut-off point for drive coil, doesnt it? :)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 18, 2011, 03:43:36 PM
Interesting.
In my last test with coil at resonant freq I slid the iron core in and out. When mostly air core the scope p-p voltage was at its highest. As the core slid in the signal lowered. This is nothing new but it focused me on the air gap between the magnet and core where the flux would increase and decrease. The flux increases in the gap as the p-p voltage goes down on the scope. The core absorbs the energy and it becomes magnetic energy. Nothing new but it showed the flux field variations the Kunel patent points out. This was a verification of the patent in an partial inverse way. Now what I want to do is put the flux meter in place of the magnet that is the one on the core at the opposite end of where the flux gap is. Then put a low inductance coil in the gap and drive it to see the reaction at the flux meter.
I also am going to drive the gap coil in both directions with a dual pulse protocol of a slow square wave with faster square pulses inside that.

Another idea I have is to make a flux coil like a pancake but with a center hole of half the diameter of the flux holding core, drive that and move the driver coil back and forth in the gap so see the results. Then make another similar pancake so that 2 can reside in the gap and varing places.

This test will take place on the ega color monitor screen for visual flux viewing.

If....   There is anything interesting I will post the results. Otherwise these quick and dirties are just that.

As Stanley Meyer and others have pointed out 'The power is in the potential not the conductor'. Grasp this and it becomes very easy and simple to understand. Kind of disapates all arguments doesn't it?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 18, 2011, 03:57:37 PM
Hey guys,

This is really interesting.  I'll have to do my own experiments...  does anyone have an opinion of magnet wire vs insulated wire for the coils?

I'm thinking of experimenting with input pulses in the vicinity of 12V - 160V, probably mostly DC input.

Cheers,
Feynman
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 18, 2011, 04:24:29 PM
@GK, @all

Check out my Square Wave pulse simulator, you can see how the actual heterodyned square wave / pwm wave varies from predicted square wave / pwm wave.  The PureData simulation file is here, it supports precise phase calculation.

http://feynmanslab.com/docs
--^ download and run the .pd file in PureData

You can download PureData here:
http://puredata.info/community/projects/software/pd-extended

Screenshot attached.

@GK

Are you using magnet wire or insulated wire , and what is your preference?  Also what is the amplitude (V) and freq (khz) of your input?  How did you determine your coils' resonant frequency (experimentally or mathematically?)

Thanks,
Feynman
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 18, 2011, 04:33:46 PM
Interesting.


GK, I would question that your sketch shows coil shorting? more a pulsed drive?

In tests I did with the Thane shorted coil what I found is shorting the coil reverses the magnetic field of the core.

The setup had a pickup coil on the back of the rotor and the "B" blue trace is triggered from this pickup each time. The "A" red trace is from a hall probe on the end of the I lam core, (opposite end from the rotating magnet)

First pic... normal operation

second pic... shorted

This is of course a full time short and not pulsed but is an easily done experiment to show what happens in a coil shorting moment.

The field reverses on a short, then instantly returns on removal of the short,
generating an intense induced pulse.  My take anyway...

Ron   

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 18, 2011, 04:42:49 PM


Quote
In tests I did with the Thane shorted coil what I found is shorting the coil reverses the magnetic field of the core.
i_ron


Quote
The field reverses on a short, then instantly returns on removal of the short,
generating an intense induced pulse.

This is a really fascinating result, thanks.   So I think we definitely have an interesting EM effect that needs investigation via further experiments.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 18, 2011, 04:52:38 PM


This is a really fascinating result, thanks.   So I think we definitely have an interesting EM effect that needs investigation via further experiments.

Thank you!

Here it is then with a single short. See the induced voltage descends to zero
on a short with no negative collapse spike and then springs to life on removal of the short.

Red trace is with probe on divide by 10

Blue trace is output of zero crossing detector circuit

Ron


Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 18, 2011, 05:18:18 PM
@i_ron

Okay cool, these spikes are well in excess of 25V... what is your input pulse voltage?  If you can paste any other technical details of the setup when you get some time that would be helpful too.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 18, 2011, 05:46:06 PM
@i_ron

Okay cool, these spikes are well in excess of 25V... what is your input pulse voltage?  If you can paste any other technical details of the setup when you get some time that would be helpful too.

I can't remember if I posted this here? But anyway, a bit messy, lol

On a DMM the coil output is 6 volts (AC)  with coil shorting the output is 70 volts after the FWB

As many know I worked with Thane for awhile and built two rotors for him. I was never able to show the results he claimed.

But all this was before coil shorting and so I have never followed up on the implications here. However, rubbing shoulders with some clever people I am gradually learning....

BUT, if the coil reverses polarity on a short...

One should investigate what pole is formed from a shorted coil as the magnet leaves the core....

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 18, 2011, 05:52:13 PM
deleted
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 18, 2011, 06:10:42 PM
I use both types of wire. Magnet wire gives great field with low current.
I use 26awg stranded silver coated copper with teflon coating for driver coils.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 18, 2011, 06:31:01 PM
I_ron, your results very much reminds me of NAudin 2Sgen / Groundloop Solid-State Orbo.

In both cases, the strong impulse occurs on the REMOVAL of the electromagnetic (electronically energized) field -- in the presence of a magnet -- which has partially saturated the toroid/core/whatever.   There's a lot in common here.

Naudin 2SGen Solid State Generator
http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm)

@GK

Thanks for the input.  I'm going to stick with solid-core wires instead of stranded (because i don't want any 'bumps' in the field), but I will definitely use magnet wire for my tests.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 18, 2011, 07:09:21 PM
Also, can someone please explain to me which diodes are backwards (if any) in the Magnacoaster patent...

Magnacoaster Patent
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/PatD38.pdf (http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/PatD38.pdf)

Thanks,
Feynman
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 18, 2011, 09:15:17 PM
Magnacoasters diode config does seem a bit odd

I see the input diodes look as to conduct source to coil ok. But why the single diodes and bridge when the input is dc?

On the right, the bridge seems to be not correct. And if diodes 102 and 104 are correct in polarity, for what ever reason, then just rotate the bridge counter clockwise 1/4 turn and the coil will conduct to the output batt
The output bridge is looking to be accepting dc in and ac out as is.

It seems as though you could eliminate the bridges all together.

The way the output is configured, and the bridge rotated correctly, only 2 of the diodes in the bridge seem to be in use at any time.

Unless the original circuit is using the diodes breakdown voltages as a spark gap of sorts.  ;]   It is very strange, the way they have most of the diodes. Why on the input and why on the output.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on March 18, 2011, 11:12:04 PM
My first thought was:
Work the bridges in reverse and the batteries get charge pumped.

But then did he have to show a working model to get the patent? I seem to recall a conversation where he did not. Therefore he could print anything or a reasonable facsimile of a working unit.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on March 18, 2011, 11:25:56 PM
My thought : schematic is correct but not all elements are detailed shown  ;D
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on March 18, 2011, 11:42:45 PM
Just a  reminder that Patrick Kelly who posted in his extensive Energy book showing the Electrodyne OU Tesla Switch arrangement that he initially had the diodes posted in a way that looked correct (after being told they were backwards) only to find out later that the apparent backwards orientation WAS correct all along.  He has since corrected them so they now look backwards but this is the way it worked (and worked very well).  So if someone has diodes that look backwards I don't automatically assume they are wrong.  It's probably worth trying both ways if possible. 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 18, 2011, 11:51:09 PM
Just a  reminder that Patrick Kelly who posted in his extensive Energy book showing the Electrodyne OU Tesla Switch arrangement that he initially had the diodes posted in a way that looked correct (after being told they were backwards) only to find out later that the apparent backwards orientation WAS correct all along.  He has since corrected them so they now look backwards but this is the way it worked (and worked very well).  So if someone has diodes that look backwards I don't automatically assume they are wrong.  It's probably worth trying both ways if possible.

That was my feeling also, but it was said in a previous post that some diodes were incorrect and when corrected it worked.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Frederic2k1 on March 19, 2011, 12:29:14 AM
Thought I would clarify a bit why I got so excited with this EMP stuff.

What was the party trick of Ismael Aviso?
   Shooting stuff up in the air.
How you do shoot stuff up in the air?
   EMP pulse.
How to make one from tiny average input?
   Capacitor discharge OR flux compression generator!

Also if one really wants to negotiate with strong neoydmiums on equal terms
there is need for another strong neodymium OR EMP pulse.

And the fact that I "discovered" with my pulse motor is that when you
drive it with mini-EMPs and very low resistance coils then for
short period of time one can treat ordinary wire as superconductor.
Meaning you get your EMP and also almost all of the energy is left,
because it will not dissipate in resistance like in classical approach.
And you can do with it all you want.

Also I would point out the Time Constant graph...
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14191/img/14191_30_2.jpg (http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14191/img/14191_30_2.jpg)
0.7TC point looks nice cut-off point for drive coil, doesnt it? :)

Could you please explain somemore details of the setup. Is there a basic arrangement which one can use do understand the effect ? Is the flux compression achieved by shorting a magnetized coil step by step over the coil distance and so forcing the magnetic flux to create a bEMF in a "shorter coil" and lower inductance?

Indeed very intresting. Please keep this up.

Thank you
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 19, 2011, 01:55:14 AM
Any ideea why Richard used so many bridge rectifiers?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 19, 2011, 02:04:20 AM
RomeroUK,
Do you have a link to Richard Willis's [Magnacoaster] old thread?
{I apologize if it was already posted]

Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: romerouk on March 19, 2011, 02:21:50 AM
RomeroUK,
Do you have a link to Richard Willis's [Magnacoaster] old thread?
{I apologize if it was already posted]

Thanks
Chet
He has removed all links to the old site but I have a copy of every picture he had ever posted.
In the picture below I am trying to find the lenght of his coil knowing that is a bit shorter than 2 US power sockets.Can anyone tell me what are the dimension of those type of sockets? Those sokets where taken from the same picture.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Super God on March 19, 2011, 03:36:45 AM
Nice guys,

I am keeping a close eye on this setup. I'd like to give this one a try. Seems like it has alot of promise, is there anyway we can get by without using microprocessors? I'll see if I can come up with anything!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 19, 2011, 03:37:10 AM
Romero
The space of the "Plug"[two power prongs] is Half inch on center.
You can scale from there.

Stefan doesn't have the old thread saved somewhere?

Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on March 19, 2011, 04:37:21 AM
He has removed all links to the old site but I have a copy of every picture he had ever posted.
In the picture below I am trying to find the lenght of his coil knowing that is a bit shorter than 2 US power sockets.Can anyone tell me what are the dimension of those type of sockets? Those sokets where taken from the same picture.

I threw a grid on it and I'm going to say the coil length is from 1.5" to about 1.6" or 1 and 5/8".  I couldn't get much closer because it's pretty blurry when I blew it up to put a grid on it.  If you by chance have a higher resolution or larger view of it we might get closer.  But I'm guessing you can do that anyway now that you know the spacing in American outlets is 1/2" center to center for the plug. 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 19, 2011, 12:59:49 PM
Could you please explain somemore details of the setup. Is there a basic arrangement which one can use do understand the effect ? Is the flux compression achieved by shorting a magnetized coil step by step over the coil distance and so forcing the magnetic flux to create a bEMF in a "shorter coil" and lower inductance?

Hi, thanks for interest :)
First I want to say that I dont think that there is "free energy" in FCG itself. FCG is just a tool.
Second I do not yet have FCG because in small setup you do not really need one. The picture changes when you scale up.

Let's say you need xA 10V impulses.
Capacitors?
Very unefficent. You would need yF @ 10V.
Storage formula is 1/2CV^2 means that you will need
them big and bulky. Instead of that (y/100)F @ 100V
would store same energy.
But now it is stored @ 100V. How to get it back to 10V?
In form of very sharp impulses?
Ordinary transformer is out of the question. It will also
get bulky (and slow!) as hell. Flyback is better but not quite there.
There would be serious overheating problems.

Which is exactly what Ismael Aviso has, BTW... !!!

So you need impulse transformer that has extreme power handling
capability w/o overheating, small mass, very small resistance and
very small inductance.
Essentially an FCG that would not explode :P

There may be solutions and I'm currently doing a research on it.

***

Now what you do need this FCG for in first place? In nature it is impulse what gets job done.
I will post scope shots of my impulse motor drive module today/tomorrow, that should explain it.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 19, 2011, 02:25:56 PM
Any ideea why Richard used so many bridge rectifiers?

Hi Romero,

Earlier you asked what the reason was Richard paralleled so many diodes.

Is it possible he also paralleled the diode bridges? I think so.
Normally a high voltage high amperage diode bridge has pretty high forward voltage drop, at least in the order of 1V, 1.2V or even higher per diode.

This could be an explanation. The side effect of paralleling is the amperage for the diode bridges also increases.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 19, 2011, 03:43:53 PM
YS_697
Quote
In nature it is impulse what gets job done.
------------------------------

Nature doing the above

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc

Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 19, 2011, 04:08:32 PM
Ok, did what I could with my scorched reeds...
This post is about DRIVE coil and superiority of impulse tech.
But of course some of the points apply to generator coil also.

***

counter_emf.png

This picture illustrates the CounterEMF of drive coil at optimal rpm.

***

coil_1.png

Here you see medium efficency setup. Some thing are good some things bad.

The on/off flicking in the beginng is not intentional and is result of scorched reed (bad).

Coil: Thin wire (bad / good because can handle RF), Tesla bifilar (good), steel bolt core (bad).
That makes 11.7ohms and 15.55mH.

EMF - CEMF is ~12.5V making ~80% goes to moving rotor (good).

Analyzing top of the input wave appears that coil is charged during 3...4 Time Constants (bad).

Comparing area of Input EMF vs Recycled EMF we see that some part gets recycled and helps to move rotor but ratio is not too good.

***

coil_2.png

Here you see high efficency setup.

The on/off flicking in the beginng is not intentional and is result of scorched reed (bad).

Coil: Thick wire (good / bad because its solid wire and cannot handle RF), Tesla bifilar (good), RF ferrite core (good).
That makes 1.7ohms and 7.55mH.

EMF - CEMF is ~12V making ~75% goes to moving rotor (good).

Analyzing top of the input wave appears that coil is charged during less than 1 Time Constants (good).

Comparing area of Input EMF vs Recycled EMF we see that very large part gets recycled and helps to move rotor.

***

Now the reasons behind good/bad division one can find out just by investigating Time Constant chart and sources of losses in electrical motors.

I dont think that path to COP > 1 & COP < 4 machines lies in some magic tricks. It is about understanding the sources of losses and systematically eliminating them. But I do agree that eliminating some losses may prove to be tricky :)

Good luck!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 19, 2011, 06:23:34 PM
@yssuraxu_697
Great results, thanks for taking the time to post them.  I will read them carefully as there is alot of info there!


@all

Okay guys, spent around $100 rubles on parts yesterday at Radio Shack etc for various energy experiments.  Lol payday.   Anyway

FEYNMAN HAS SMALL PROBLEM WITH 555 TIMER / MOSFET!

I would appreciate some suggestions...

I build a 555 timer PWM circuit , based on schematics for HHO generation.  The Mark-space Ratio / Frequency Kinda work despite being a little finicky, and with my 0.01uF cap I'm getting 2khz - 80khz adjustable spacing. 

The problem is that from what I can tell, the IRF510A MOSFET is inverting the pulses.

I run the pin 3 output of the 555 into the gate of the IRF510A MOSFET through a 100ohm resistor, then I drop another 1k ohm resistor from the MOSFET gate down to (-) GND.  See attached schematic  (I substituted 100ohm and 1kohm resistors for the 220ohm / 820ohm resistors on the diagram).

The MOSFET drain is connected through a 1kV HV diode to the (+) 9V.  In parallel, I've connected a dummy load which represents my 'coil' which I'm going to drive (this is actually a ferrite electromagnet, but I digress).  The resistance of the 'dummy load' from mosfet drain to (+) 9V is anywhere from 100ohm to 1k ohm. I tested both.  At 100ohm,  the dummy load pulls 75mA.  At 1k ohm, dummy load pulls 7.5mA.

Lastly, the MOSFET source is just connected down to (-) GND.

The problem I'm getting is that the output of pin 3 is completely inverted from the output as measured at the MOSFET drain.

For example, if my input is PWM with 1% duty cycle and a specific frequency, on the drain of the MOSFET I see a 99% duty cycle wave at the same frequency.

I plan on snagging MOSFET drivers in the future, and I know I could invert the logic with a transistor, but I want to know if I'm doing this properly and to hear other people's thoughs.  Thanks.

-Feynman

P.S.  The point of this is to run HV PWM , waves of say 1% duty cycle and high potential, probably at least 60V - 300V into the electromagnet.  Then from there I plan on basically doing some magnacoaster-style experiments , and some coil shorting experiments in the presence of a biasing magnet.

Thanks again
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 19, 2011, 06:55:37 PM
....
The problem I'm getting is that the output of pin 3 is completely inverted from the output as measured at the MOSFET drain.

For example, if my input is PWM with 1% duty cycle and a specific frequency, on the drain of the MOSFET I see a 99% duty cycle wave at the same frequency.
.....

Hi,

This is normal, a grounded-source stage inverts its input at its output.

Solution is either you input the high duty cycle into the gate of the MOSFET when you wish low duty cycle at the drain as an output and vice versa,  OR you use an inverting type MOSFET driver between pin 3 of 555 and MOSFET gate as you intend.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 19, 2011, 07:24:21 PM
@gyula

Okay , got it.   Does a P-channel MOSFET have the same inverting effect when driving the low side?   I know these are probably obvious questions , but I normally deal with microcontrollers and sensors.   This is my first time actually doing serious benching with MOSFETs.

I think I'll buy both kinds of drivers... I know I need non-inverting for my Boyce TPU replication.  I think I'm going to snag the UCC drivers he used in his HEXFET controller (UCC27322P's) .
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 19, 2011, 07:50:51 PM
@gyula

Okay , got it.   Does a P-channel MOSFET have the same inverting effect when driving the low side?   

I think I'll buy both kinds of drivers... I know I need non-inverting for my Boyce TPU replication.  I think I'm going to snag the UCC drivers he used in his HEXFET controller (UCC27322P's) .

Yes, a P-channel also has the same inverting effect when you control its gate with an input and use its drain as output.

The UCC27322P is a non-inverting driver indeed and the type UCC27321P is an inverting driver.  A similar pair is TC4421/TC4422, there are several others of course.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 19, 2011, 08:49:51 PM
@yssuraxu

I read your post carefully, and it reminds me very much of what Rosemary Ainsle is discussing on her blog.

http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/  (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/)

Quote
The circuit is designed to allow a secondary current flow that is induced from the collapsing fields of RL1 during the OFF period of the duty cycle as a result of counter electromotive force (CEMF). This reverse current path is enabled by the body diodes in the transistor MOSFETs (Q1). This allows a current flow that returns to the battery supply source to recharge it
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 19, 2011, 10:37:47 PM
I read your post carefully, and it reminds me very much of what Rosemary Ainsle is discussing on her blog.

I am not familiar with Rosemary Ainsle work, will look at it. I guess that there are thousands of people over the world arriving at the very same conclusions, only each one from slightly different angle and background.

Tsunami is coming and we are the surfers  8)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 19, 2011, 10:57:17 PM
I just looked into Rosemary's results today, and I'm not sure what to think yet (the screenshots are too low a resolution), but some of the terms make sense...

Current does not necessarily have to be the flow of electrons.

The other idea is that utilization of the back-EMF / counter-EMF may be promising.  Thane Heins apparently has a device working on this principle... the magnacoaster patent works by 'pinging' an electromagnet in the presence of Biasing magnets... Naudin's 2SGen works similarly via magnetic coupling, etc.

So it seems to me there are a lot of commonalities.-

---

In terms of future research, I think my plans are to finish winding my electromagnet  (I grabbed a ferrite rod inductor from radio shack, around 5cm long and 1cm in diameter, and I will be winding this with 30awg magnet wire . )

I'm going to pulse the electromagnet with HV pwm pulses and see what sort of waveform I can observe.

The one question I'm wrestling with is whether to wind it monofilar or bifilar, but I bought three of the ferrite rods, so perhaps I will make a couple of different types.

I also bought a couple of soft iron nails so I can experiment with electromagnets which have large eddy currents.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 21, 2011, 09:30:01 PM

Tsunami is coming and we are the surfers  8)

You have seen this but for some others who might be interested here is a peak sine event shorted 8 times. The probe was on x10 so 10 volts per square.

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: onthecuttingedge2010 on March 21, 2011, 11:28:49 PM
When the coil is shorted at the right peak time the coil sends back lots of power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGbPwXq13GI

Watts in and Watts out please?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: ramset on March 22, 2011, 01:29:32 AM
onthecuttingedge2010
Quote:

Watts in and Watts out please?

---------------------
Sniff.............Sniff................
HHMMMmmmmmmmmmmm

You smell familiar??

"Patience Grasshopper"
We'll get to the measuring!

Chet
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Thaelin on March 22, 2011, 03:18:47 AM
   Since this is about coil shorting, I will throw in my toy. I recently found a F&P style motor for $15 us. I just finished "re-programming" it for single coil access. I will be running 12 mags all N around it on a 36 coil stator. The motor will be triggered by a single coil for each phase. The rest of the coils will be out to connectors for ease of use.
   Mounted up the set for a motor run in the next day or so. Then as it progresses, I will start adding the shorting circuits.

On the multi short scope shot, what is the unloaded ac out voltage? Mine is about 10v per coil or 120 per phase. Looking to have 2 coils in each circuit with the left over 3 supplying operating voltage for the shorting power.

thay
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 22, 2011, 10:05:02 AM
Hi i_ron

Very nice scope shoots

Can I ask you which circuit you used to make shorting peak sine event 8 times ?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 22, 2011, 04:24:27 PM


On the multi short scope shot, what is the unloaded ac out voltage?

thay

6 volts AC

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 22, 2011, 04:27:14 PM
Okay guys, I haven't gotten to coil shorting yet, but I'm about halfway through winding my electromagnet.  This takes FOREVER.

I have to superglue the damn magnet wire every 8 turns or so, then wait for it to set, then continue another 8 turns, etc, so it's really tedious!  But it's worth it to be able to control the effect I'm looking for (direction of B-field, amperage capacity of wire, number of coil layers, etc)

I'm using (I think) 26/28awg enameled magnet wire on a 5cm x 0.5cm diameter ferrite rod.  I pulled the ferrite rod from an RF choke I bought at radio shack.

Over the weekend, I also finished the PWM circuit (the 555 timer thing I posted) , which uses a 555 timer modulating a MOSFET as a low-side driver.   I can control the pulse width (aka duty cycle, from 0-100%) and I can control the frequency from about 200hz up to 100khz (depending on the timing capacitor , 0.01uF gives 200hz - 2khz, 0.001uF gives 2khz - 200khz).

My plan at the moment is to finish winding the electromagnet, then do some experiments with magnetic flux saturation (biasing the rod with permanent magnets), sort of like a magnacoaster replication.  I want to figure out how to know exactly when I've hit magnetic flux saturation in the ferrite, so I'll probably get some pins, nails , or iron filings of some kind so I can do a crude test of magnetic field strength at fixed distances from the ferrite.

I'm going hit the electromagnet with about seven 9V batteries in series connected to the MOSFET source/drain, for a total of 63V DC input pulses, of about 1% duty cycle from the 555, somewhere in the frequency of 200hz to 100khz.

Once I get that working, I'll try to set up some sort of astable trigger to short the 'ringing' in the rod so this is relevant to coil shorting, but that's about 1-2 weeks out. 

This week I'll have flux saturation results hopefully, as well as some raw data on the behavior of a pulsed DC electromagnet in ferrite vs soft iron.  (pulsed electromagnet information is surprisingly scarce).
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 22, 2011, 04:43:27 PM
Hi i_ron

Very nice scope shoots

Can I ask you which circuit you used to make shorting peak sine event 8 times ?

Thank you!

It was posted some pages back, the zero crossing from:

http://www.8051projects.info/blogs.asp?view=plink&id=198

But here are the two parts...(first part again)

I am using the Si8410 as the replacement for an opto isolator. It takes 5 volts from the first circuit and a separate 5 volt regulator from the second circuit, so that the second circuit is completely isolated... and could be used in the highside of an H bridge. I like it

http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/si8410.pdf

J2 and J3 go across the generator coil.

Q1 and Q2 are setup as in Gyula's AC switch, posted here and on EV Gray.

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 22, 2011, 08:20:30 PM
Hi i_ron

Thanks for circuit I will try it I just need to buy missing components

I am using this circuit from Gyulasun:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/JoeFR/Coil%20Shorting/GyulasunCoilShorting-1.jpg (http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/JoeFR/Coil%20Shorting/GyulasunCoilShorting-1.jpg)

Without shorting I get this:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/JoeFR/Coil%20Shorting/WithoutShorting.jpg (http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/JoeFR/Coil%20Shorting/WithoutShorting.jpg)

With coil shorting I get much better results:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/JoeFR/Coil%20Shorting/CoilShorting.jpg (http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/JoeFR/Coil%20Shorting/CoilShorting.jpg)

With coil shorting it charges 680uF cap to 150V quite fast

I will change two hall sensors to just one hall omnipolar sensor for more easy adjustment

Does anybody have good and reliable circuit to dump cap at preset voltage to battery (at 100v dump cap to 36v battery bank)  ?

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 22, 2011, 08:28:25 PM
Hey guys, check out this thread, there might be a breakthrough with Thane Heins' device.  David has done his own toroidal replication which appears to be COP=8

http://pesn.com/2011/03/20/9501793_Two_Toroid_Over-Unity_Gabriel_Device_--_Part_1/

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7833.new#new

P.S.  I started a new thread.

The Gabriel Device, possible COP=8
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10518.msg278875#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10518.msg278875#new)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 22, 2011, 11:15:48 PM
....
Does anybody have good and reliable circuit to dump cap at preset voltage to battery (at 100v dump cap to 36v battery bank)  ?


Hi joefr,

There is a patent application on just such a circuit you need, it is US20070222411 by Jean-Michel Cour.
(go here http://www.pat2pdf.org/ and copy and paste 20070222411 to freely download this patent).
The application text describes how the circuit works and includes component values too.  You can adjust the voltage divider resistors to choose the range for the comparator to fire a FET switch for discharging the capacitor as you need.

Gyula

PS Would you tell what way you create the sine wave in your coil?
    And what happens to the sine wave when you short it out? Why does it flatten out between the spikes?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 23, 2011, 12:15:30 AM
Hi Gyula

Thanks for patent

Would you tell what way you create the sine wave in your coil?
For creating sine wave I use this big bicycle wheel from my other previous project.
I connected your circuit to generator coil and to FWBR, then I charge a cap 680uF 200V and for now manualy dumping cap to battery when it reaches 100V.

And what happens to the sine wave when you short it out? Why does it flatten out between the spikes?
I got 2 day ago my first oscilloscope and I am not yet familiar with all the settings  ???
I will take more photos with different setting and see if I can find the shorted sine wave.




 



Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 23, 2011, 07:47:29 PM
Hi joefr,

Very nicely built setup you have! 

Maybe it is not the scope settings but the ON time of the shorting switch?
First try to short only ,say, the positive peaks of the sinewave, for about 1-2 millisec duration. (In your scope shot you have nearly 10 millisec time for one full sinewave, and you wish to position the Hall sensor so that it would be ON for 1-2 msec at just at the positive peaks).

Later your manual damping of tha capacitor could be done by the circuit shown in the patent application (Unfortunately, Jean-Michel Cour died about 3 years ago, he was a very good engineer and experimenter.)

Gyula

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 24, 2011, 11:42:45 PM
Hi Gyula and all others

I manage to record a short video of coil shorting. I tried many things but I always get flatten sine wave between the spikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1Sgf9v6PA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1Sgf9v6PA)

I will make a new more powerful generator to take advantage of coil shorting.
I will design it in SketchUP and send the design to machine shop to do the laser cutting all the parts.
I am thinking a similar design as watson generator with heavy flywheel.
I will be using 8 coils but I need proposal what will be better to use 7 magnet or 9 magnets?

And what diameter size of bottom magnets would be fine for good power generation with coil shorting (charging caps and then dump to battery ):
1. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N)
2. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N)
3. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N)
4. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N)

I am open to suggestions and ideas before I start designing in SketchUP  :)

Joe








Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 25, 2011, 06:24:11 PM
Hi Joe,

Thanks for the video.  At the moment I have no clue why the sineswaves flatten with the shorting (I assume both FETs are in good shape).  Maybe you could use a second probe on Channel 2 of your scope to check the squarewaves controlling the common gates and sources, if you have not checked it?  (Ground clip goes to common negative of the 4421 and input clip goes to the gates.)

MAybe a series capacitor in the some uF (or higher) range is the clue for this, as shown in Doug Konzen schematic, see the 40uF cap labeled as 'high bypass filter' in series with the AC input leg of the full wave diode bridge: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276614#msg276614   

Just wondering what is the FET type you use for switching?

Gyula

EDIT: be careful and do not connect the GND of CH1 probe to anywhere that has a different GND than the common negative of the 4421 when checking the gate-source drive signal.

ONE MORE Notice: in your photo showing the two Hall sensors above, both sensors are positioned at North poles. I ask one of the sensors should not be facing a South pole instead?


Hi Gyula and all others

I manage to record a short video of coil shorting. I tried many things but I always get flatten sine wave between the spikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1Sgf9v6PA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1Sgf9v6PA)

....
Joe
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: nul-points on March 25, 2011, 10:33:49 PM
Hi Gyula and all others

I manage to record a short video of coil shorting. I tried many things but I always get flatten sine wave between the spikes.

Joe

hi Joe

impressive build - nice work!!


i have an idea about your flattened sine wave...

i think maybe either the control signal, or possibly the MOSFET polarities are inverted

it looks to me like your coil is shorted EXACTLY when you DON'T WANT it

of, course, this would mean the coil gets UN-shorted at the peaks - allowing a narrow section of the high part of the sine voltage to develop as usual - and being narrow it would look like a spike!

maybe you could check that your P & N-type MOSFETS are really connected where you think they are

and if they are ok, then check the voltage output from the control chip to make sure it's voltage is high or low at the correct point to switch the MOSFETS to short or un-short the coil


hope this makes sense - and helps!

all the best
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)
 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 25, 2011, 11:56:33 PM
Hey Joe

I believe when the coil is shorted there can be no oscillation.
An inductor with current flowing when shorted, the current wants to continue. Only when the coil encounters a capacitance will it be able to reverse direction for oscillations or bemf. Its like a flywheel. Not exact, but current in a wire/inductors have inertial values.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: i_ron on March 26, 2011, 03:49:19 PM
hi Joe


i think maybe either the control signal, or possibly the MOSFET polarities are inverted

it looks to me like your coil is shorted EXACTLY when you DON'T WANT it

of, course, this would mean the coil gets UN-shorted at the peaks - allowing a narrow section of the high part of the sine voltage to develop as usual - and being narrow it would look like a spike!

maybe you could check that your P & N-type MOSFETS are really connected where you think they are



hope this makes sense - and helps!

all the best
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

Thats it!  I have to agree, good observation!

Ron
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 26, 2011, 10:33:48 PM
Hi nul-points,

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, unfortunately I could not see the forest from the tree.

One small correction to your post: the two MOSFETs are both N-channel types,  see schematic here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg278867#msg278867  and they paralleled gate-source electrodes are controlled at the same time either on or off, and they switch between their separate drain-drain electrodes. When both FETs are off, their body diodes are in opposing series connection between their drains hence any AC or DC voltage polarity are blocked by one or the other diodes. (This opposite series connection of the drain-source path works because once the channel is opened it is able to conduct current into both directions.)

@Joe, as I suggested earlier, first use only one Hall sensor and check it to short only one of polarities of the sine wave peaks and when it is ok you can proceed to shorting the other polarity with another Hall.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 27, 2011, 01:24:14 AM
Hi Gyula and all others

Thanks all of you for positive comments and suggestions

Now lets answer the questions:
Gyula
Just wondering what is the FET type you use for switching?
I am using this type of FET IRFB5620 PbF
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfb5620pbf.pdf (http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfb5620pbf.pdf)
and this type of Hall sensor:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=searchProducts&searchTerm=680-7481&x=0&y=0 (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=searchProducts&searchTerm=680-7481&x=0&y=0)
The gen coil resistance is 13.4 ohm and inductance is 123.5 mH

In your photo showing the two Hall sensors above, both sensors are positioned at North poles. I ask one of the sensors should not be facing a South pole instead?
I made new Hall sensor layout which triggers on both magnetic poles south and north, look at the bottom video.

I put small trigger magnets on the side of the wheel. All small trigger magnets are south pole oriented so they trigger mosfets only at positive part of the sine wave.

MAybe a series capacitor in the some uF (or higher) range is the clue for this, as shown in Doug Konzen schematic, see the 40uF cap labeled as 'high bypass filter' in series with the AC input leg of the full wave diode bridge:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276614#msg276614 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276614#msg276614)
Yes I am using this circuit with 40uF series cap but with your circuit mosfet TC4421 driver

I record new video and show all the steps which all of you suggested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPagVQGfDDU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPagVQGfDDU)

Joe
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 27, 2011, 02:13:35 PM
Hi Joe,

Thanks for the good informative video.

Please check the FETs gate-source pulse width how many millisecond it is?  (shown as starting in video at 0:55) Also check what is a shortest pulse width you can achive? (by moving the Hall sensor radially away from the trigger magnets)

If I suppose you use the 5 ms/DIV setting in the video when showing the gate pulses then what I can make out is the pulse width changes roughly between 2.5ms to 4ms: this is STILL very wide for the shorting, considering your one full sine wave time is about 8-9ms.  It would mean the shorting pulse would lay over almost for the total half sine wave (if I consider only shorting one half of the sine wave) and this would explain why it is like the gate control pulse would be inverted: using the shorting on both polarities of the sine wave the shorting times cover up both halves of the sinewave and this tricks us all.

(you have chosen good types of MOSFETs and Hall sensors.)

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 27, 2011, 07:21:57 PM
Hi Gyula

I tested today the coil shorting with circuit which is using only hall sensor and mosfet ( without TC4421 driver ).
I got the exactly same result, the coil is shorted too long.
So I am thinking that this wheel setup is not good for testing coil shorting, because trigger magnets are positioned on inside part of the wheel.
I put smaller trigger magnets as showed in the video, but because they spin slower the result is almost the same that before I used generator magnets to trigger.

So i will build the new wheel, something in this way at the bottom photo:

I ask this two questions in previous post and I ask for suggestion if anyone has more experience with this:
I will be using 8 coils but I need proposal what will be better to use 7 magnet, 8 magnets or 9 magnets?

And what diameter size of bottom magnets would be fine for good power generation with coil shorting (charging caps with spikes and then dump to battery ):
1. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N)
2. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N)
3. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N)
4. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N)

Joe
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Feynman on March 27, 2011, 08:08:04 PM
Hey guys,

I have a 4.5cm x 0.5cm ferrite rod with about 100-150 turns of 30AWG enameled magnet wire in one layer.  From your experience in coil shorting, what is the best configuration for an electromagnet?   One layer of wire?  More than one layer?  Can I wind the seperate layers individually, and connect the layers input leads with alligator clips or is this too much stray inductance for a 50khz pulsed electromagnet? (Should the multiple layers be continuous?)

Thanks,
Feynman
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Arthurs on March 28, 2011, 09:32:24 PM
I made a simple coil short-circuit test, but it seems just the circuit voltage increases, the total energy has not increased.
Specific:
1) If a direct short reed switch coil, the speed decreased. Speed ​​drop means reduced output energy.
2) a reed switch if the series capacitor (0.47-47uf all done between the experiment), and then in parallel with the coil, the speed has not changed. But the voltage and current output has decreased significantly.

I think we proved that this method can really increase the output energy, you must use incandescent experiments.
Using the LED does not prove anything. While the use of short-circuit mode LED will light, but this is just the voltage increases to the LED's forward voltage.
But I do not have a big magnet for incandescent bulbs in the experiment.

Where is my experiment is not correct?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 29, 2011, 12:36:05 AM
Hi Joe,

It is possible the mechanical setup as a whole you happen to use has got the inherent 'property' of not letting the control pulses be shorter... maybe you wish to use a small reed switch instead of the Hall to control the 4421 as a last test in this respect.  Of course this is up to you, likewise if you really wish to build another setup and not wanting to explore further behaviors of the present one like changing series capacitors, several reed switches in series like Romero mentioned for getting narrower shorting time etc.
Unfortunately I cannot answer your questions on the number of  magnets, or the type of magnets, sorry.

Keep up the good work.

Gyula



Hi Gyula

I tested today the coil shorting with circuit which is using only hall sensor and mosfet ( without TC4421 driver ).
I got the exactly same result, the coil is shorted too long.
So I am thinking that this wheel setup is not good for testing coil shorting, because trigger magnets are positioned on inside part of the wheel.
I put smaller trigger magnets as showed in the video, but because they spin slower the result is almost the same that before I used generator magnets to trigger.

So i will build the new wheel, something in this way at the bottom photo:

I ask this two questions in previous post and I ask for suggestion if anyone has more experience with this:
I will be using 8 coils but I need proposal what will be better to use 7 magnet, 8 magnets or 9 magnets?

And what diameter size of bottom magnets would be fine for good power generation with coil shorting (charging caps with spikes and then dump to battery ):
1. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N)
2. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N)
3. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N)
4. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N)

Joe
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 29, 2011, 05:40:18 AM
Hi Gyula

I tested today the coil shorting with circuit which is using only hall sensor and mosfet ( without TC4421 driver ).
I got the exactly same result, the coil is shorted too long.
So I am thinking that this wheel setup is not good for testing coil shorting, because trigger magnets are positioned on inside part of the wheel.
I put smaller trigger magnets as showed in the video, but because they spin slower the result is almost the same that before I used generator magnets to trigger.

So i will build the new wheel, something in this way at the bottom photo:

I ask this two questions in previous post and I ask for suggestion if anyone has more experience with this:
I will be using 8 coils but I need proposal what will be better to use 7 magnet, 8 magnets or 9 magnets?

And what diameter size of bottom magnets would be fine for good power generation with coil shorting (charging caps with spikes and then dump to battery ):
1. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N)
2. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N)
3. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N)
4. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N)

Joe


Maybe optical sensors would be more exacting.  I have found that magnets, even from the same batch can be a bit different from one another. Ive been able to adjust my reeds away from the rotor just enough that just one of the 16 magnets activate the reed. The same may go for hall sensors. But optical will be as exact as the positions set for the sensor to read.  Most printers have optical wheels that it is hard to even see the gaps in the wheel. So timing on/off can be made absolutely predictable.  =]

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Thaelin on March 29, 2011, 06:18:47 AM
   If you want to go with optical trigger, I know a place that has N type optical transistors and they will work very well with either laser pointer or hi output  leds. I just got 30 of them for $.95 each. You can order on line as well.   Try at Surplus Gizmo's. They have say a couple a thousand of them.

thay
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on March 29, 2011, 10:41:22 AM
off course shorting coil gives more back power because of the input and the effect of the input, and it gives back more power depends on material and the design you make, they will all contribute for addition.  :)

just crossing   :)  ;)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 29, 2011, 11:19:50 AM
Hi Mags
Maybe optical sensors would be more exacting
This is great idea thanks.

Hi Thay
Can you please post a link to this N type optical transistors.

Joe
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: conradelektro on March 29, 2011, 01:07:05 PM
@Joe:

I post a circuit which uses optical gap sensors to switch ON and OFF at an adjustable angle very precisely. It was not intended for coil shorting but can be adapted easily. One needs as many "fingers" as magnets, but only one pair of optical sensors (defining the angle). The optical sensors are triggered by the leading edge of the "fingers".

The "fingers" switching the two optical sensors could be on the circumference of the wheel with the magnets (not necessarily on a separate wheel).

The optical sensors worked much better than any hall sensor or reed switch solution I tried. Although, the optical sensors need about 5 mA to drive the LEDs (shining in the gaps).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Tudi on March 29, 2011, 02:48:20 PM
Guys. Pls, 1 simple question : What is input P and what is output P ?
As I understand that P=U*I, here you guys get nice U(volts) as output but probably with the cost of I.
Can anyone post a conversion factor for this whole ghizmo ? It's really nice to see a lot of enthusiasts, but if you drive to achieve a 100% conversion ratio you would need to eliminate everything. It makes logical that the more things you add they will convert more power ( P ) = you will get a lower conversion ratio. So before we start adding more and more components to simply get nicer visuals on an osciloscope let's try to focus on the basics ? As i see this is a simple resonant circuit that stores input energy in the coil and capacitor and from time to time it dumps to a batery. This is all nice and logical, not sure why people think there is any gain in this. It's just a I to U convertor circuit.
ps: i know i'm a day 1 sceptic :(
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 29, 2011, 10:43:29 PM
Hi Conrad

You have nice setup

Thanks for circuit schematic and picture of your setup.

Joe
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 29, 2011, 11:18:16 PM
Hi Gyula

Can you please help me choose which optical switch to use:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Nr=AND%28avl%3auk%2csearchDiscon_uk%3aN%29&N=4294571106+4294909763&Ns=Maximum%20Rise%20Time&Nso=0#resultArrow (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Nr=AND%28avl%3auk%2csearchDiscon_uk%3aN%29&N=4294571106+4294909763&Ns=Maximum%20Rise%20Time&Nso=0#resultArrow)
I was thinking the first model in the row ( Slotted IR optical switch,OPB460T11 )
Here is the datashet: http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/025c/0900766b8025c2fe.pdf (http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/025c/0900766b8025c2fe.pdf)

And can you please change this schematic to use optical switch instead of the hall sensor:

Joe


Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 29, 2011, 11:50:31 PM
Hi Joe,

Ok,  tomorrow I will upload the modified schematic with the opto added.

The type OPB460-T11 seems already a good choice (it has an output rise and fall time of 50ns, maybe an overkill in this application for the present some hundred RPM, if you choose this type it will never ever be a limiting factor in speed, that is sure).
If you read the data sheet of the TCST2103,
http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0e30/0900766b80e30a58.pdf
 its turn on and turn off times are specified as 10us and 8us, respectively. This is about a thousand times slower than the above one but I believe it still good for here. Conrad surely found it good for his practical setups.
So if you choose the OPB type I will make the schematic with it tomorrow.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: minoly on March 30, 2011, 05:59:22 AM
Very Nice!
I like where this thread has been going since I last had a peek.
We finally figured out the simple method of using the SSG to short the coil
"http://tinyurl.com/SSGshort"
will have to give the Opto a try.
Thanks,
Patrick
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Thaelin on March 30, 2011, 06:04:50 AM
   Pdf of the transistors is here
   http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/B/P/X/4/BPX43-4.shtml

  N type  880 nm triggered.

thay
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on March 30, 2011, 06:11:54 AM
Im glad you guys are seriously considering the optical idea.
What is great about it is, you will be able to have many on/off periods in a small area, where the magnets/reeds make that virtually impossible.
And the speed of the sensing should be fantastic as said in a previous post.
You could even print coded bars on transparent sticky sheets.

Good luck. =]

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Tudi on March 30, 2011, 11:20:56 AM
I hate to be a spammer. But i would love to assemble such a device for experimenting. And i think i'm asking for a very small thing. : What is the input and output power ratio ?
It's just a simple Amper measurement besides the Voltage increase.

Is it just drawing more power from the batter at once stacking it up at the output ? Is this peak draw so fast that the multi meter cannot measure it (it does an avg over time)?
I was watching the osciloscope outputs ( much finer value sampling then multimeter) just makes me think that there is voltage spike that guys harvest and then there is a period of silence (not mentioning the BEMF ) to wait for the recharge from the battery of the coil. So basicly the multi meter is measuring the spikes at the output and probably just skipping the input spikes ? Just a wild guess. I'm simply trying to understand the magics behind of it. Such simple circuits tend to hold no magic. Even if the coil is harvesting ambient energy, you should feel some sort of radio signal loss, or maybe heat loss ( EMF are everywhere )..
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Bruce_TPU on March 30, 2011, 03:44:10 PM
I hate to be a spammer. But i would love to assemble such a device for experimenting. And i think i'm asking for a very small thing. : What is the input and output power ratio ?
It's just a simple Amper measurement besides the Voltage increase.

Is it just drawing more power from the batter at once stacking it up at the output ? Is this peak draw so fast that the multi meter cannot measure it (it does an avg over time)?
I was watching the osciloscope outputs ( much finer value sampling then multimeter) just makes me think that there is voltage spike that guys harvest and then there is a period of silence (not mentioning the BEMF ) to wait for the recharge from the battery of the coil. So basicly the multi meter is measuring the spikes at the output and probably just skipping the input spikes ? Just a wild guess. I'm simply trying to understand the magics behind of it. Such simple circuits tend to hold no magic. Even if the coil is harvesting ambient energy, you should feel some sort of radio signal loss, or maybe heat loss ( EMF are everywhere )..

Tudi,

These individuals on this thread are experimenting.  The concept is based on Ismael's electric car.  Go find that thread, read through it.  Then experiment.  No one hear will give you what you want.  No one here is even close to that stage.  So please either experiment and post some information, or simply watch.

Thank you and have a nice day,

Bruce
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Thaelin on March 30, 2011, 04:43:01 PM
   I would like to address Tudi's question on what is the power out to the power in. The answer is still out there as we are in process. I am soon to fire up my combo motor/gen with shorting as well.
   The point I would like to pass on is what can be done with the output. Take a motor for use on 12 volts and it has heavy winding due to the amount of amps it must draw to perform the said task. Take the same task and use a higher voltage motor to do the same and it takes less amps so less size of windings. Like in a E-Bike, much easier to use a 48v motor than a 12. I know from experience there. My 12v try failed miserable for me.
   The test of time here will be when this is brought into resonance as well and then see where it goes.

thay
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: e2matrix on March 30, 2011, 06:10:54 PM
Very Nice!
I like where this thread has been going since I last had a peek.
We finally figured out the simple method of using the SSG to short the coil
"http://tinyurl.com/SSGshort"
will have to give the Opto a try.
Thanks,
Patrick

Nice job on that configuration Patrick.  I like the idea of triggering the shorting process by using a coil/transistor/cap setup that uses no battery!  I'll have to rewatch the vid but did you show what transistor you are using?  Also a question on the shorting coil as I thought you said it was air core (which I thought was best for this) but at the last few seconds it looked like it got sucked into one of the magnets when the wheel was still (which made me think there is an iron core of some sort). 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: baroutologos on March 30, 2011, 06:55:16 PM
@ Tudi,

There is not an official recorded instance of OU device able to sustain itself while being powered by an "unknown" power source (other than wind, sun, earth energy etc) able to put out substantial amounts of power and being economical in doing so.

Rumors, theories, possibilities etc are endless, but nothing of real value (in regard to real free energy or almost near to it) to the average tinkerer yet.

My piece of advice: if you are not enjoy working with your hands, design devices/circuits and realize them via trial and error, communicating with others, showing your work and networking that way in a pleasant hobby, then its really little to see here.

Regards,
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on March 30, 2011, 08:41:47 PM
...
And can you please change this schematic to use optical switch instead of the hall sensor:
....

Hi Joe,

Here is the schematic I have changed to include the opto coupler instead of the Hall sensor.  If you (or someone else) have questions on it please ask.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: joefr on March 30, 2011, 11:29:01 PM
Hi Gyula

Thanks for circuit, I will try it as soon as I get opto components.

Joe
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: minoly on March 31, 2011, 03:12:16 AM
Nice job on that configuration Patrick.  I like the idea of triggering the shorting process by using a coil/transistor/cap setup that uses no battery!  I'll have to rewatch the vid but did you show what transistor you are using?  Also a question on the shorting coil as I thought you said it was air core (which I thought was best for this) but at the last few seconds it looked like it got sucked into one of the magnets when the wheel was still (which made me think there is an iron core of some sort).

Thanks, while we're using a coil w/ a welding rod core here, this can easily be accomplished with the Bedini Windowmotor type coil setup. you can even mix and match them, you just need enough voltage and amprage to put on the base of that transistor. you can use a resistor in there or very the proximity to the passing magnet if you have too much coil for the trigger. It's like an SSG out of jail free card - the trigger is free to be where ever it likes :-)

We used the MJE13009G, however, I'm sure many more will work. this is one of the many things on our list to test - SOA curve vs coil impedance. so we can find some optimal rule of thumb.
Thanks for checking it out.
Patrick
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Tudi on March 31, 2011, 09:41:45 AM
Thanks guys for the friendly feedback. What i was hoping is that i'm wrong. I see so many enthusiast that try hard to reproduce the Ismael Avisio self running car. But i was reading the acknoledgement of the technology and it only describes a good power usage from the storage device to the motor. From ismael talk he is using high voltage on low amps. I see no magic in this, this is a known thing in electronics to reduce the power disipation in the environment. He is simply using a Bedini motor for the conversion from low volts to high spiked voltage.
I would simply like to discuss the principles that people think this would make an over unity device. Having no magic formulas in it eliminates the chance of becoming an OU. Adding more and more parts to the circuit will probably lower the power conversion ration.
PS : i think that when making measurements all should be expressed as input power and output power. Not only a fraction of the power formula. It really pains me to see so many enthusiast people (with equipment i would not even dream to afford buying) to try to invent something that they cannot even measure.

PS: My personal goal is to try to convert as much environmental power as possible into electricity. With the best power conversion ratio. Devices like Ismael do improve the transmission of the power which is really great.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Arthurs on April 01, 2011, 02:08:05 AM
The actual experiments in my conclusions:
    The title of this thread should not be called: "Shorting coil gives back more power", should be changed to: "Shorting coil increase higher voltage. " Because this method does not add more energy, only increased the voltage, but the current drop.

    If I have the opposite view and refute me, please show your real experimental data. Speak with the facts.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Bruce_TPU on April 01, 2011, 02:52:07 AM
Tudi,

These individuals on this thread are experimenting.  The concept is based on Ismael's electric car.  Go find that thread, read through it.  Then experiment.  No one hear will give you what you want.  No one here is even close to that stage.  So please either experiment and post some information, or simply watch.

Thank you and have a nice day,

Bruce

Arthurs,

These individuals on this thread are experimenting.  The concept is based on Ismael's electric car.  Go find that thread, read through it.  Then experiment.  No one hear will give you what you want.  No one here is even close to that stage.  So please either experiment and post some information, or simply watch.

Thank you and have a nice day,

Bruce

(Sheesh, you guys need to chill and learn to add substantive things in your posts... Things that will add to the experimenters work.  So CHILL out and build something...  You want a fact....  I haven't seen you build or test anything on this thread.  So here is my idea... You build it, and test it the way you want, and report back to us here what you find.   ;)   )
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Thaelin on April 02, 2011, 10:46:35 PM
   Just finished with the re-programmed motor run of the F&P. Not really a speed demon but then doesn't have to be. Out put to charge coils is 10 v ac. So for the motor part, success. On to the coil shorting now. I will have 9 shorting circuits in all. Three sets of A,B, and C phase. Great when a plan starts to come together. Shorting has a quite a bite to it too.  ;D

thay
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on April 04, 2011, 02:55:04 AM
Make a motor run where there are no commutation sparks...

Then we can talk about what is and what is not.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Thaelin on April 04, 2011, 12:14:07 PM
     Commutation sparks? No commutator here, using a coil for trigger.
Using the same trigger signal for the sine peak sense too. Just too simple
here. But it works.

thay
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on April 05, 2011, 12:06:43 AM
     Commutation sparks? No commutator here, using a coil for trigger.
Using the same trigger signal for the sine peak sense too. Just too simple
here. But it works.

thay

Ishmael has a commutated motor with no sparks.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on April 13, 2011, 07:10:22 PM
INFO
http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/vladimir_pantiuhov/
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on April 19, 2011, 05:24:50 PM
SM sated over and over to 'Cancel the flux' and 'squeeze the hose'.
Magnacoaster and Kunel do this.
Parametric oscillations do this by starting and stopping flux or reversing allowances. This is also what resonance does.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: scratchrobot on April 20, 2011, 08:45:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAjiiabrUF4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAjiiabrUF4)
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on April 26, 2011, 04:21:07 AM
Maybe this will shock the reader:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sl-Edh77s8&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sl-Edh77s8&NR=1)

He is using a mechanical and magnetic flux jacking in a ringing or singing mode. Look at the field / sine / dc explanation.
This is a Johnson Rotovertor with the Generator and Motor meshed on the same plane and central axis. The rotational mercury core is similar.
Searl is also a Scottish rite Mason.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Thaelin on April 29, 2011, 08:23:58 PM
   When you short the coil, the field colapses down, thus a change in the mag field. Soon as you release the short, the mag pulls the field back up again. Try it on the bench for yourself.

thay
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on April 30, 2011, 04:17:06 AM
use paint or such and always draw a schematic.
You will get more of an answer.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: IotaYodi on April 30, 2011, 04:16:51 PM
Quote
shorting means making a or creating continuity in a circuit,
Some use that term in that context.  Continuity in reality is a closed loop. When a meter is used for continuity,then the power source is turned off and the meters battery voltage is used. If the meter is set on continuity and the power source is on you will burn the meter up.
Electricians never use the term short for continuity. A short would be a bypass of the current to a metal box,a device,or another wire which would go to ground or the device.  Plugging in a lamp or other device you can sometimes see sparks. The original closed loop current is directed into the lamp. The lamp settles in to the original closed loop becoming part of that loop. The coil in question here has both ends of the coil wires tied together in its own loop. Power is then applied to the wires intermittently. If the current continued it would burn up the coil.     
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: neptune on May 19, 2011, 05:50:11 PM
.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: nul-points on May 19, 2011, 05:56:57 PM
.

i know you like 'minimal', Mr neptune, but could you give us just a tad more to go on than this?

ta ever so  ;)

[EDIT: dayyum - i SHOULD have said "i don't see the point in this post" - but actually that's ALL i can see!]
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: forest on May 19, 2011, 07:52:42 PM
!= closed circuit
== crash or electrons
minimal  :o ;D
...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: neptune on May 20, 2011, 01:05:38 PM
@nul-points .You say you could not see the point ! The point is , I was basically "Bumping" the thread to keep it in the public eye . IMO There is a Gem hidden in the first 4 pages of this thread which I think people have missed .
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: nul-points on May 20, 2011, 02:41:06 PM
@nul-points .You say you could not see the point ! The point is , I was basically "Bumping" the thread to keep it in the public eye . IMO There is a Gem hidden in the first 4 pages of this thread which I think people have missed .

LOL - "Bumping", eh?   

soon you'll be doing some "Grinding" on your rotor

...i'm not sure that Stefan's going to be happy about someone "Bumping & Grinding" in his forum!!  ;)


jokes aside, i looked through the thread (from the start this time), as you suggested

i agree that Romero had learnt a lot about this process through experimentation - and he was obviously quite 'fired up' about it

you can see an evolution of some ideas which re-surfaced in his Muller Dynamo rep:

 - he used the exact same drive coil circuit (apart from having a split coil)
 - he went on to add a vertical coil (on the same bobbon even?)

he fed back the o/p to the battery and found that he was able to charge the 6V battery up to 7V, at which time he would have to give it some discharge so that it didn't overcharge

he tried running from capacitor (no value given), but could only achieve a few minutes before the Hall effect circuit was affected by decrease in voltage

he made a very interesting statement, that when running from battery it was important NOT to short the Gen coils while the Drive coil was switched On - only try & charge the battery during the Off period

iirc he collected the o/p from the Gen coils into a 'holding' cap & then transferred the energy to the battery at a lower rate (& during Drive coil Off, presumably)

so - why the switch during March/April from this config to the Muller config?

he was very happy with the performance of this test - he copied some aspects to the Muller rig - and 'apparently' left out other aspects

maybe the switching required for the shorting of the Gen coils, and the slower dumping of collected o/p back to the source were just too much hassle

the Muller rep seems a much 'leaner' design

and of course - there is the secret ingredient depending on your outlook

it's either a hidden battery - or else it's something which conventional engineers would overlook!

anyway, more meat on these bones here, i think!

well 'Bumped' !   :)
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)
 

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magneticitist on May 22, 2011, 08:38:44 PM
lol very few people believed me when i tried to explain this coil shorting last year whats up with that =)

use a reed switch and a FWBR but have the reed triggered by a separate set of magnets (for less pulsing and drag) and end up with a MUCH higher potential to work with from a gen coil at the sacrifice of less overall current.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: neptune on May 22, 2011, 09:08:42 PM
@Magneticist . One problem with OU research is that there is just too much info .Few people have time or inclination to closely scrutinise everything .Perhaps you could post a link to you work ?
 Edit . Does anyone know what core material Romero used in his machine pictured on page 3 of this thread . Is it ferrite?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magneticitist on May 22, 2011, 11:09:19 PM
lol its cool dude i know how it is im pretty sure its all been covered by now so thats a good thing. i had some good results feeding the pulsed gen coils back to the front end on a particular motor but it was never overunity as the battery would still eventually drain, though much slower.
if u are interested in particular a couple vids i made are
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhBBjvBBbew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5H0_TIl9bc&feature=channel_video_title
showing a modified bedini with the basic gen coil reed-pulsing setup but using E core transformers as the gen coils.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: nul-points on May 23, 2011, 07:17:54 PM
[...]
 Edit . Does anyone know what core material Romero used in his machine pictured on page 3 of this thread . Is it ferrite?

hi neptune

i believe the Gen coils are taken from a microwave oven (did someone mention fan?)  the core is the laminate on which the original coil was wound for the oven

the drive coil is basically the same as for the Muller, so probably the salvaged ferrite from a display monitor which R mentioned on muller thread

hth
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)
 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: teslaalset on May 23, 2011, 08:14:30 PM
I'll copy below reply that I posted in the RomeroUK thread, since this seems to be a more appropriate thread:

A nice intro of understanding what kind of effect shortening of a coil has, is following lession from MIT on Eddy Currents, although it's a rather long video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpO6t00bPb8

If you want to skip the formula part, the central interesting part comes in from time = 40:03 where the phase lag of the current in a shortened coil is demonstrated and calculated.
In short: the phase delay of current is easily calculated by tangens phi= wL/R, where w = omega = frequency x 2 x pi.
The smaller the R, the bigger the current delay.
In theory the current delay can be max. 90 degrees.

Critical factors: R of the coil, and L, the coil value, where a low R is extremely important.
This is why litze wire is used in critical setups.
The right combination will cause the desired magnetic kick.

Understanding the above also points to the optimum timing of shortening a coil in a generator setup.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on June 06, 2011, 06:25:15 AM
Hi all,

Now we find ourselves backtracking in an effort to capture the "effect" needed to allow
a Muller type setup to function.

Does anyone else agree that Romero's video that was sent to clanzer shows a coil
from a Microwave oven fan that has had an additional winding added.

It seems to me very bulged compared to all 16 that I have recovered from thrown out microwaves.

Is the secret then -
 
Short one of the two coils now wound on the fan core and collect the power from the other.

In doing this, we find we get an increase in RPM and therefore an increase in output - ALA Thane.

I am now setting out on this track

Kindest Regards, Penno

One thing I would love to know is - Romero's rotor from that video - what are the magnet poles .
It looks like a single ring magnet around the top of the rotor and the rotor is driven by the lower coil to the right.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Seacrhing2008#p/u/3/mEaY17NeK_I
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on June 06, 2011, 06:54:55 AM
Ok - I think we've got something here.

Initial tests -

Core alone 5 to 6 volts

Core + Shorting second winding 15 -17 volts

thats two to three times as much

Now setting up to drive the rotor and check RPM while loading

Penno
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on June 06, 2011, 08:55:07 AM
Using the roughly wound microwave oven fan core, I was able to see what Romero has been saying.

Loading the pickup coil, causes the RPMs to rise -

You need to fiddle with the coil to rotor and core to biasing magnet distances, but seems easy enough to do

Penno

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: oscar on June 06, 2011, 09:13:56 AM
Thank you penno64.
Are you using a lightbulb as a load on the pickup-coil?
Can it be that a lightbulb is more suitable to find the effect than a resistor or potentiometer/rheostat?

In other words: Is it easier to find the effect with a lightbulb as load, since the lightbulb has inductance (a lightbulb is a coil of sorts, after all)?

edit to add: and Inductance means, that the resistance of that inductive element varies with the frequency of the input signal.

edit2: when I wrote this posting I was not aware that one winding of penno's pickup-coil is shorted in intervalls using a reed switch. I was under the impression it was permanently shorted.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: kEhYo77 on June 06, 2011, 09:25:27 AM
Penno64 Great way to go. Now you can try few consecutive coil shorts until the magnet is away. Also from my understanding, Tesla bifilar coils used as generator coils would transfer more energy with coil shorting technique as they have bigger capacity... Good luck with this...
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on June 06, 2011, 09:39:29 AM
Bulb is just handy as a small load.

Penno
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on June 06, 2011, 10:02:41 AM
Using the roughly wound microwave oven fan core, I was able to see what Romero has been saying.

Could you please clarify a bit.
You have 1 extra winding?
Original winding is shorted extra winding is loaded?

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on June 06, 2011, 10:09:49 AM
That's what I did.

Shorting original with reed and collecting from additionally wound coil.

Penno
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on June 06, 2011, 10:26:54 AM
Shorting original with reed and collecting from additionally wound coil.

Ok, and when loading extra coil RPM did rise... But compared to what? All coils open or original winding being still shorted by reed (and extra coil open)?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on June 06, 2011, 11:20:42 AM
Hi Oscar,

A light bulb surely has a self inductance but only in the some hundred nano or max a few microHenry range and considering the low frequencies involved here (if rotor speed is say 3000 RPM, the frequency is just 50 Hz) the resistive part of the wire inside the bulb is what mainly counts (some 10 to 100 Ohms versus the some 0.1 Ohm of series inductive impedance).

The only problem you may better be aware of is the resistive part is nonlinear.  This can be significant if you wish to make meaningful measurements: a voltage and current meter is a must for checking real power.  Light bulbs are very good for indicating output power increase or decrease while tuning a setup and always keep in mind they are nonlinear. Their inductive properties are negligible at such low frequencies.

rgds,  Gyula

Thank you penno64.
Are you using a lightbulb as a load on the pickup-coil?
Can it be that a lightbulb is more suitable to find the effect than a resistor or potentiometer/rheostat?

In other words: Is it easier to find the effect with a lightbulb as load, since the lightbulb has inductance (a lightbulb is a coil of sorts, after all)?

edit to add: and Inductance means, that the resistance of that inductive element varies with the frequency of the input signal.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: gyulasun on June 06, 2011, 11:51:09 AM
Hi Oscar,

One more thing I forgot to include:  if you read this in the Romero Muller thread from teslaalset:

"It is very important to understand that the exact adjustment is done under a specific load.
If the load is changed after adjustment, you will lose the cancellation of the BEMF forces.
This is what RomeroUK also pointed out."

then you may NOT wish to use any light bulb (nor any LED) as load when trying to tune a Romero Muller pulse motor/generator setup because the bulb wire changes its resistance nonlinearly.

The best is to use a high wattage resistor as a load (preferably NOT wire wound type).  It is good to test the resistance value when the resistor body is at room temperature and then in a warmed up state, just to learn.

Gyula
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: minoly on June 06, 2011, 05:31:08 PM
Using the roughly wound microwave oven fan core, I was able to see what Romero has been saying.

Loading the pickup coil, causes the RPMs to rise -

You need to fiddle with the coil to rotor and core to biasing magnet distances, but seems easy enough to do

Penno

Penno,
it does work, we found the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-yWi3VApbk
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: neptune on June 06, 2011, 09:39:38 PM
In my shed I have an electromechanical machine that works by coil shorting . The horse shoe magnet does not move . The revolving armature has an iron core . Not sure if it is solid or laminated . The armature has two coils , one of thick wire , called the primary . The secondary is of thinner wire and has many turns . For most of each revolution the primary is shorted . Then , for a few degrees , the short is removed . At this instant , the short is removed and several thousand volts appear across the secondary . The high tension current is collected by a slip ring and brush , and is used to produce a spark outside the machine . The machine was built about 1924 , although earlier examples exist .  Its name ? It is called a "Motorcycle Magneto " and of course is used for ignition . The shorting is done by the cam-operated contact breaker points . To learn of the new , we must revisit the old . I am not sure that shorting coils give more power , but they can of course produce more voltage , in what is in effect a pulsed transformer .
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on June 07, 2011, 09:31:49 AM
Hi all,

Excuse the mess, but I had to try out the shorting coil using an AC cap.

** false alarm on the battery climb. crappy dmm and idiot user (me) ****

This is getting better

I still must admit, I am lost as how to employ these finds into the romero/mueller design.

Penno
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: DimaWari on June 07, 2011, 04:54:12 PM
Hi penno64


I think I have an idea.. If you may sir, Why not use the driving transistor as shorting device? How? Have you seen how the HOT of TV/Monitor works?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on June 08, 2011, 09:48:22 AM
Hi penno64


I think I have an idea.. If you may sir, Why not use the driving transistor as shorting device? How? Have you seen how the HOT of TV/Monitor works?

ya that's a brilliant idea!!!  ;D

KABAYAN!!!
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: DimaWari on June 08, 2011, 11:52:37 AM
Thank You Sir  ;D almost done na po sa muller dynamo.. Hope it will run..  ;D
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Drak on June 25, 2011, 11:56:18 PM
Ok, I'm playing the coil shorting game. I've got the avr shorting the coils at the peaks of each wave. Its not slowing the rotor down at all with or without the buffer caps hooked up. It does VERY slightly slow the rotor down when I start applying the shorts, but only noticeable with a meter. Caps with small uf are charged instantly. Now I just need to flip a logic 1 (+5v) to a logic 0 through a circuit to try and grab that charge and send it to a load.
 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Drak on June 26, 2011, 02:21:26 AM
I got that working, but the output to load is next to nothing... oh well.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on June 26, 2011, 02:00:30 PM
I got that working, but the output to load is next to nothing... oh well.

The reasons would be clear if you would look the current graph...

- when you short current starts to flow
- inductive reactance resists current flow
- by the time you unshort only very minute current had time to build up
- backspike will be HV but it will also contain only minute amount of energy

I have not yet found the way sneak around these problems with gain over conventional generation. Has anyone?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: electr0n on June 27, 2011, 05:49:03 AM
@Drak
looks good, very similar to my experiment except im using a reed to pulse the load on the coil, one thing im trying at the moment and may be better with your setup is..
have the generator coil pulsed as your doing allready, but try a bifilar coil and use the 2nd winding to collect the bemf from the 1st winding :)
so you can adjust the load on the 1st winding to give best bemf on the 2nd winding (without too much rpm drop).
Im winding a bifilar at the mopment :)

i tested this by putting another coil ontop of the top stator gen coil and pulsed the stator coil, then collected the bemf from the "piggyback" coil, use a ferrite too. Output was only 1.5v at 1mA but it was loosly coupled in this arrangement, bifilar would be better as im in the process of.
Hope it sounds logical
Jim
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: xenomorphlabs on June 29, 2011, 07:37:26 PM
A Question to those that work with microwave oven fan coils.
I have one where the coil is on a rectangular core and i see no easy
way to separate it from that core without damaging it.
Maybe certain ovens have different coils?
Or do you need to use high mechanical force to somehow hammer it off?
 
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: penno64 on June 29, 2011, 08:30:42 PM
Hi Xeno,

If you look closely, you will notice that the core for the coil is actually a seperate piece.

This fits together like a piece in a jigsaw.

I place the opposite end in a vice and find that by carefully compressing this opposite end, I
can remove the core/coil without damaging the entire unit.

Penno
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: giantkiller on July 01, 2011, 12:50:30 AM
This the Parametric oscillator circuit! Short half the coil.

Hi penno64


I think I have an idea.. If you may sir, Why not use the driving transistor as shorting device? How? Have you seen how the HOT of TV/Monitor works?
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: technobear on July 03, 2011, 05:33:59 PM
Hi!  8)

Having studied all the fine experimenting in this thread, I feel it is time to inject some theory as to what is actually occurring in these electromagnetic devices.

This is a bit long but bear with it. There is important information here.

If we pinch a guitar string with our fingers and pull it to one side, we put energy into the string which is stored as potential. When we gently stop pulling, this energy is gently returned to us as the string returns to its original position. Nothing further happens.

If, having pulled the guitar string to one side, we abruptly release it then it again returns to its starting position. However, in this instance, all the potential energy is converted into kinetic energy as the string acquires velocity. Newton tells us that things in motion keep on moving until something stops them. So it is with the guitar string. It keeps going past its rest position until all the kinetic energy is converted back to potential.

This conversion between potential and kinetic energy keeps going until all the energy has been radiated away into the surrounding medium, in this case as sound waves.

This cyclic conversion of energy is known as resonance and happens at a single frequency for any given system. Our guitar string has a single defined note.

So what does this have to do with electromagnetism?

The experiments show us that the magnetic field behaves like the stressing of an elastic medium, like pulling a guitar string to one side. When the cause of the stress is removed, the medium attempts to return to its pre-stressed state.

Experiments also show us that there is a definite link between the position of electrons and the degree of this magnetic stress. Whenever an electron moves, it causes this stress to manifest. When the electron stops moving, the medium settles into a new steady state and the stress is gone.

Experiments also show us that the reverse is true. When a part of the medium is subjected to a change in this stress, any electrons within it are forced to adopt new positions. They move until the stress stops changing and a new steady state is achieved.

So, we have an elastic medium, like a guitar string, and we have a means of stressing and destressing it by moving and then abruptly stopping electrons, like plucking a guitar string.

The experiments in this thread have also shown that when you "pluck" this magnetic medium by steadily applying a current to stress the medium and then rapidly removing that current, the medium resonates just like a guitar string.

Because of the relationship between magnetic stress and electron position, the resonance of the magnetic medium causes a corresponding resonance of electron position, a back EMF if you will.

The resonance continues until all the energy of the original impulse has dissipated as electromagnetic radiation, radio waves, or as heat if there is a circuit for electric current to flow in.

Shorting the coil is not strictly necessary. It is only necessary to cut the input at the sine wave peak and then restore it at the next zero crossing.

So far so good but there is no OU here. So where is it?

We can prolong the magnetic resonance by reducing the damping action of the electric circuit. If we connect a load to the circuit, the resonance will dissipate very quickly as the available energy is transferred to the load. If instead we turn the electric circuit into a resonant tank by addition of a capacitor, we can prolong the resonance. To do this, the resonant frequency of the LC tank circuit must match the resonant frequency of the magnetic medium. The latter can be worked out from the oscilloscope traces of the resonant ringing.

The resonance will also be enhanced if the “pluck” frequency is a sub-harmonic of the magnetic resonant  frequency.

Still no OU though. Back to that guitar…

A guitar has a resonant box behind the strings. This box resonates in sympathy with the strings. We can hear it. We can feel it. There is energy there. More energy than from the string alone. More energy than was imparted by our pluck.

If you put six identical strings on a guitar and tune them all to the same frequency, then just pluck one of them, they will all resonate. This does not diminish the resonance of the one we plucked, yet they are all now resonating. Where did all this extra energy come from?

Fortunately for us, we don’t need to be too bothered about where the energy comes from. We just have to accept that sympathetic resonance does occur and it is free energy.

So back to our electromagnetic circuits. How can we get ourselves some of this free energy in electrical form? What is required is to couple secondary circuits to the primary by sympathetic resonance. We do not try to draw power from the primary. This would “kill the dipole” as Tom Bearden might say. Instead we draw power only from the secondaries whilst ensuring that they remain tuned to the primary.

Remind you of anything? Well, a radio receiver for one, but also a device I saw once and am struggling to recall. It had a vertical coil in the centre with other vertical coils arranged around it some distance away (there is no inductive coupling required here). As I recall, this thing worked but was a pain to tune and keep tuned. With modern electronics, it should be relatively simple to tune a similar device and keep it tuned but it needn’t be too flash for a DIY proof of concept.

Sorry this was so long. It is of course only an empirical model but I think it’s a bit clearer than some of the nonsense about collapsing fields and currents that want to keep going and other such fanciful descriptions. Electrons only translate when they are pushed. Ordinarily the aether keeps them in place in their orbits using  this same magnetic stress. I’m sure the real interactions between electrons and the aether are somewhat more complex but I think we have enough to be going on here.

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: wings on January 23, 2014, 11:34:58 AM
shorting experiments:

http://www.advanced-science.com/CoilShortingNotes.html
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Dave45 on January 23, 2014, 01:57:55 PM
http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm#035
Tesla was shorting the coil peak to peak as well
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on January 17, 2016, 05:54:32 AM
Was testing a bifilar air coil 26awg 27mh with coil shorting on my pulse motor setup.

Was testing with the reed switching on the departing side of the coil and the approaching side.

The coil when the reed is opened oscillates about 14.3khz and dies off.

See scope shots below.

On the departing side, when the reed opens, the oscillation begins + and rises to the cap voltage(-diode v) and dumps into the cap.

But on the approaching side, the oscillation begins in the - direction full swing then back up into the + till it hits a point it is dumped into the cap. But the peak out is higher when the coil has its down swing first. Like it added momentum to the output. Same discharge width in both.

Now I have to see if thats the case with a normal coil. Normal coils do have some capacitance. But I wonder if it is the same gain.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on January 17, 2016, 05:56:26 AM
With the coil alone at near same rotor speed p-p is about 6v.  In respect to the post above.

Mags

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on January 17, 2016, 07:08:17 AM
Ok, that was the bifi coil. Here is a normal coil below. About the same physical size coil but bigger wire. 1.65mh

The bifi shots were at 400us and these are seen at 80us. There is the oscillation but higher freq and much faster die down.

The coil was reverse wired to show that is all it takes to get the downward throw on the departing side.

But here the oscillation dies off so fast that it looks better to take the output when the oscillation is started on the up swing being that the next half wave is significantly reduced each swing. So the upward, most powerful swing of the oscillation shows to dump into the cap for a longer period of time. But waiting for the down swing and then the up swing there is a narrower dump time because that swing has a shorter peak.

The down then upward swing does have a bit more height at time to dump but is shorter lived.

So there does seem to be a little advantage in using a bifi coils here because taking advantage of the downward swing inertia doesnt let you loose much on the next swing because the oscillation doesnt die off so quickly on the next swing.

So when using shorting, to get the best results with a particular setup, use a scope to see what gives you the best output per time shorted. it seems to matter. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on January 17, 2016, 07:36:57 AM
One more and gotta go.

I did some shots of the bifi and the normal coil at 400us and 80 us for comparison.  First 2 are the bifi and the next 2 are the normal coil.

In both shorting tests the bifi seems to charge the cap faster and both coils demonstrate being able to charge the cap above 30v at nearly the same rate of rpm. The normal 1.65mh has more drag on the rotor it seems compared to the 27mh bifi. More controlled tests to determine better.

Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: Magluvin on January 17, 2016, 07:40:09 AM
The bifi is 26awg series conected and the normal coil is 18awg.  About the same size but big difference in no of turns.


Mags
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: tysb3 on June 26, 2016, 12:47:34 AM
Hi
There is my 2 cents for shorting generators coil.
I found that with one red switch was charging  over 150 volts only one capacitor, another was keeping less than 10 volts. Then I change turn direction and there  was charging another capacitor. Then I connect second red switch.  First switch was "on" on incoming magnet, another - out coming and both capacitors was charging.
Generator coil is on the core from MOT transformer about 800 turns, wire diameter is about 0.6-0.7 mm. Coils resistance is about 15 omhs.

For better Lorentz force compensation capacitors in each cycle need to be discharged.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: tysb3 on June 26, 2016, 05:07:42 PM
Sorry,
I made mistake, Lenz force
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: dieter on June 27, 2016, 03:11:05 AM
No I guess you were right:

-Lorentz force
-Lenz' Law

Basicly, without Lorentz force there were no electromagnets.

Only, in induction generators, unfortunately it opposes the mechanical motion of the inducting field (says Lenz)... normally ... harhar, but now kansas ain't what it used to be.

Looking good, keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: skycollection 1 on March 24, 2020, 10:26:06 PM
This is my most recent publication of my version of the Newman engine, I am presenting some of the main aspects of my project:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPqSH2mMyRw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZWKebPo2fk&t=12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dZJHdWM4Fs

AND THE CIRCUIT DIAGRAM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljtcDeCQUCo&t=38s

I hope it is of interest to you, greetings from Mexico, Jorge Rebolledo.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: onepower on March 25, 2020, 07:16:41 AM
Hello Jorge

Good to see a fellow builder and I built many variations of the Newman motor-generator over the years. Newman used mechanical switching to manage the HV/HF aspects of the process and mosfet/transistor switching is problematic. However that being said using a setup similar to yours I found better results by adding a 555 HF chopper driving a transistor prior to the main switching transistor. So we have the 555 high frequency switching being pulsed on and off at another frequency like so... ^^^    ^^^    ^^^    ^^^. This is similar to Frequency Modulation with the modulation being either zero or the preset frequency of the 555 timer.

In this way we can drive the coil(s) at resonance with the 555 and still modulate the power input with the secondary switching. Two switches, one at the coil resonance (x) and one to pulse on and off at another circuit resonance (y). There are two resonant points here, x which builds up the coil fields sequentially through a series of HF pulses and y which pulses the HF on and off. X is resonant with the coils and y is resonant with the circuit/coils as a feedback loop.

Which begs the question why?, it's a long story however I can tell you what to look for. Don't drive the circuit with your power supply drive it with a medium sized capacitor so you can log the energy efficiency or input vs output as a run time. When x hits near coil resonance the power rises faster with each HF pulse and when you hit system resonance the run time is greatly extended.

The trick is then to split the system so the upper coil switches x,y sync with the lower coil switches x,y which is what your looking for. As you can see there is a horrendous amount of shit going on here which is why so few people have ever seen anything in the way of positive results. They think oh I will just switch this which spins this and shazam the magic happens but no not so much. 

My best results were whenever I looked at any given device and thought what would everyone else do then did the complete opposite or something whereby I had no idea what I was doing. The key word is "different", repeating what everyone else does is a lesson in failure while we want to move forward hence ... different.

 

Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: konehead on March 25, 2020, 10:51:02 AM
Hola Jorge
Thanks for keeping with it! I always get your newest experiments in my email, this one looks really great one.
Most people here are cooped up from CV19 lock downs too....I am in country of Belarus, where they are not having much problem with it (so far) and people are free to roam around but my wife and I quite paranoid still.
Anyways I have done lots of experiments put stuff on youtube, (MrDKONZEN) and am building up a good webpage while this virus madness takes over...looks like gloom and doom for future but could be worse (not sure how)
My motors and generators not so beautiful objects as yours, as dont have much to work with here....in Seattle, I have lots of stuff and tools but here not much so my motors and generators very Fred Flinstone (you know who that is cartoon character).
Anyways just some questions, I am using laptop, can type fast...
What is the output in watts of those two 110V LED lights?
Not what the box that they were sold in said, but what is the amps flowing into a light, using ammeter on its way there, and what is the voltage across the light while it is lit up?  I see some one said on youtube you have I think 5watts input (I believe the ammeters if DC amps in, and voltage at input of your transistor switching)
And same guy said 16 watts ouput....is this true just wondering...
Second question is there no lenz law from the white pickup coils inserted in there? 

Does it slow down over time, and the flywheel makes it not affect rotation rpms and amp draw "at first" but does eventually Lenz Law cause slow down of rotor?
Are those aircored flat coil pickup coils?  Whats the ohms of them, and anything special about the winds?
Final questions whats the RPMS of it in video, and what is inside the copper tube, two neodymium bar magnets or four maybe? are they NSNS if four or NNNN if four?   Also whats the ohms of one of those big square power coils, are they microwave oven transformer winds or did you wind yourself?
THANKS FOR YOUR WORK VIDEOS AND HAVE FUN! ... computer translation follows:

Hola Jorge
¡Gracias por seguir con eso! Siempre recibo tus experimentos más nuevos en mi correo electrónico, este se ve realmente genial.
La mayoría de la gente aquí están encerradas de los bloqueos CV19 también.... Estoy en el país de Bielorrusia, donde no están teniendo mucho problema con él (hasta ahora) y la gente es libre de vagar por ahí, pero mi esposa y yo bastante paranoico todavía.
de todos modos he hecho un montón de experimentos poner cosas en youtube, (MrDKONZEN) y estoy construyendo una buena página web mientras que esta locura de virus se apodera de... parece tristeza y perdición para el futuro, pero podría ser peor (no estoy seguro de cómo)
Mis motores y generadores no tan hermosos objetos como el suyo, como no tienen mucho con lo que trabajar aquí.... en Seattle, tengo un montón de cosas y herramientas, pero aquí no mucho por lo que mis motores y generadores muy Fred Flinstone (ya sabes quién es el carácter de dibujos animados).
De todos modos sólo algunas preguntas, estoy usando portátil, puede escribir rápido...
¿Cuál es la salida en vatios de esas dos luces LED de 110V?
No lo que la caja que se vendieron en dijo, pero ¿qué es el amplificador que fluye en una luz, utilizando amperímetro en su camino allí, y cuál es el voltaje a través de la luz mientras está iluminado?  Veo a alguien dicho en youtube que tiene creo que 5vatios entrada (Creo que los amperímetros si DC amplificadores en, y voltaje en la entrada de su conmutación de transistor)
Y el mismo tipo dijo 16 vatios ouput.... es esto verdadero sólo preguntándose...
Segunda pregunta, ¿no hay ley lenz de las bobinas de recogida blancas insertadas allí? 
¿Se ralentiza con el tiempo, y el volante hace que no afecte a las rpm de rotación y el tamaño del amplificador "en el primer" pero finalmente Lenz Law causa ralentización del rotor?
¿Son bobinas de recogida de bobinaplanas ventiladas?  ¿Qué son los ohmios de ellos, y algo especial sobre los vientos?
Preguntas finales lo que es la RPMS de la misma en vídeo, y lo que hay dentro del tubo de cobre, dos imanes de barra de neodimio o cuatro tal vez? son NSNS si cuatro o NNNN si cuatro?   ¿También cuáles son los ohmios de una de esas grandes bobinas de potencia cuadradas, son vientos de transformador de horno de microondas o se enrolló usted mismo?
GRACIAS POR TUS VIDEOS DE TRABAJO Y DIVIÉRTETE
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: skycollection 1 on March 25, 2020, 03:54:54 PM
Thanks for your commentaries, as you know i do not studied electronics, i am learning and my English is not good, but i will try to anwnser some questions for example the magnet inside of the copper pipe i have a magnet, neodymium magnet very powerful that i protect with copper because  it is so powerful that if it collides with another magnet it breaks very easily,  here is the link for the magnet, is a magnet  diametrically magnetized; https://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RC4CDIA
It is incredible the power of this magnet being so small, the power it has is immense, the flywheel do the work, the inertia produced by this metal wheel delays Lenz's law by almost 100%, the microwave coils produce many Eddy currents but my Newman motor seems to have no magnetic brake, when I put the second coil, it does not affect the input voltage, retains the same input volttage, which are important aspects of motor operation.
The other questions i will try to anwser all the questions, I will make some measurements with the ammeter, I just need some time to understand the questions, unfortunately I do not speak English, my language is Spanish but I will try to translate and answer all the questions as I can, I want to clarify that I am only an experimenter I am not an expert in this stuff.
Title: Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
Post by: konehead on March 25, 2020, 04:27:10 PM
Hola Jorge
Type in Google search "spanish to english" then you will see box to copy and paste your spanish writing into, there is another box next to it, that will pop it out in english, so copy and paste it here, its pretty easy...sorry about all the questions, take your time
Konehead



Hola Jorge
Escriba en la búsqueda de Google "español a inglés" entonces verá el cuadro para copiar y pegar su escritura en español en español, hay otra caja junto a ella, que lo hará estallar en inglés, así que cópielo y péguelo aquí, es bastante fácil ... lo siento por todas las preguntas tomar su tiempo
Konehead