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Author Topic: Shorting coil gives back more power  (Read 351876 times)

Offline penno64

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #465 on: June 06, 2011, 06:25:15 AM »
Hi all,

Now we find ourselves backtracking in an effort to capture the "effect" needed to allow
a Muller type setup to function.

Does anyone else agree that Romero's video that was sent to clanzer shows a coil
from a Microwave oven fan that has had an additional winding added.

It seems to me very bulged compared to all 16 that I have recovered from thrown out microwaves.

Is the secret then -
 
Short one of the two coils now wound on the fan core and collect the power from the other.

In doing this, we find we get an increase in RPM and therefore an increase in output - ALA Thane.

I am now setting out on this track

Kindest Regards, Penno

One thing I would love to know is - Romero's rotor from that video - what are the magnet poles .
It looks like a single ring magnet around the top of the rotor and the rotor is driven by the lower coil to the right.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Seacrhing2008#p/u/3/mEaY17NeK_I

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #465 on: June 06, 2011, 06:25:15 AM »

Offline penno64

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #466 on: June 06, 2011, 06:54:55 AM »
Ok - I think we've got something here.

Initial tests -

Core alone 5 to 6 volts

Core + Shorting second winding 15 -17 volts

thats two to three times as much

Now setting up to drive the rotor and check RPM while loading

Penno

Offline penno64

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #467 on: June 06, 2011, 08:55:07 AM »
Using the roughly wound microwave oven fan core, I was able to see what Romero has been saying.

Loading the pickup coil, causes the RPMs to rise -

You need to fiddle with the coil to rotor and core to biasing magnet distances, but seems easy enough to do

Penno


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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #467 on: June 06, 2011, 08:55:07 AM »
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Offline oscar

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #468 on: June 06, 2011, 09:13:56 AM »
Thank you penno64.
Are you using a lightbulb as a load on the pickup-coil?
Can it be that a lightbulb is more suitable to find the effect than a resistor or potentiometer/rheostat?

In other words: Is it easier to find the effect with a lightbulb as load, since the lightbulb has inductance (a lightbulb is a coil of sorts, after all)?

edit to add: and Inductance means, that the resistance of that inductive element varies with the frequency of the input signal.

edit2: when I wrote this posting I was not aware that one winding of penno's pickup-coil is shorted in intervalls using a reed switch. I was under the impression it was permanently shorted.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 11:07:33 AM by oscar »

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #469 on: June 06, 2011, 09:25:27 AM »
Penno64 Great way to go. Now you can try few consecutive coil shorts until the magnet is away. Also from my understanding, Tesla bifilar coils used as generator coils would transfer more energy with coil shorting technique as they have bigger capacity... Good luck with this...

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #469 on: June 06, 2011, 09:25:27 AM »
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Offline penno64

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #470 on: June 06, 2011, 09:39:29 AM »
Bulb is just handy as a small load.

Penno

Offline yssuraxu_697

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #471 on: June 06, 2011, 10:02:41 AM »
Using the roughly wound microwave oven fan core, I was able to see what Romero has been saying.

Could you please clarify a bit.
You have 1 extra winding?
Original winding is shorted extra winding is loaded?


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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #471 on: June 06, 2011, 10:02:41 AM »
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Offline penno64

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #472 on: June 06, 2011, 10:09:49 AM »
That's what I did.

Shorting original with reed and collecting from additionally wound coil.

Penno

Offline yssuraxu_697

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #473 on: June 06, 2011, 10:26:54 AM »
Shorting original with reed and collecting from additionally wound coil.

Ok, and when loading extra coil RPM did rise... But compared to what? All coils open or original winding being still shorted by reed (and extra coil open)?

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #473 on: June 06, 2011, 10:26:54 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #474 on: June 06, 2011, 11:20:42 AM »
Hi Oscar,

A light bulb surely has a self inductance but only in the some hundred nano or max a few microHenry range and considering the low frequencies involved here (if rotor speed is say 3000 RPM, the frequency is just 50 Hz) the resistive part of the wire inside the bulb is what mainly counts (some 10 to 100 Ohms versus the some 0.1 Ohm of series inductive impedance).

The only problem you may better be aware of is the resistive part is nonlinear.  This can be significant if you wish to make meaningful measurements: a voltage and current meter is a must for checking real power.  Light bulbs are very good for indicating output power increase or decrease while tuning a setup and always keep in mind they are nonlinear. Their inductive properties are negligible at such low frequencies.

rgds,  Gyula

Thank you penno64.
Are you using a lightbulb as a load on the pickup-coil?
Can it be that a lightbulb is more suitable to find the effect than a resistor or potentiometer/rheostat?

In other words: Is it easier to find the effect with a lightbulb as load, since the lightbulb has inductance (a lightbulb is a coil of sorts, after all)?

edit to add: and Inductance means, that the resistance of that inductive element varies with the frequency of the input signal.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #475 on: June 06, 2011, 11:51:09 AM »
Hi Oscar,

One more thing I forgot to include:  if you read this in the Romero Muller thread from teslaalset:

"It is very important to understand that the exact adjustment is done under a specific load.
If the load is changed after adjustment, you will lose the cancellation of the BEMF forces.
This is what RomeroUK also pointed out."

then you may NOT wish to use any light bulb (nor any LED) as load when trying to tune a Romero Muller pulse motor/generator setup because the bulb wire changes its resistance nonlinearly.

The best is to use a high wattage resistor as a load (preferably NOT wire wound type).  It is good to test the resistance value when the resistor body is at room temperature and then in a warmed up state, just to learn.

Gyula

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #475 on: June 06, 2011, 11:51:09 AM »
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Offline minoly

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #476 on: June 06, 2011, 05:31:08 PM »
Using the roughly wound microwave oven fan core, I was able to see what Romero has been saying.

Loading the pickup coil, causes the RPMs to rise -

You need to fiddle with the coil to rotor and core to biasing magnet distances, but seems easy enough to do

Penno

Penno,
it does work, we found the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-yWi3VApbk

Offline neptune

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #477 on: June 06, 2011, 09:39:38 PM »
In my shed I have an electromechanical machine that works by coil shorting . The horse shoe magnet does not move . The revolving armature has an iron core . Not sure if it is solid or laminated . The armature has two coils , one of thick wire , called the primary . The secondary is of thinner wire and has many turns . For most of each revolution the primary is shorted . Then , for a few degrees , the short is removed . At this instant , the short is removed and several thousand volts appear across the secondary . The high tension current is collected by a slip ring and brush , and is used to produce a spark outside the machine . The machine was built about 1924 , although earlier examples exist .  Its name ? It is called a "Motorcycle Magneto " and of course is used for ignition . The shorting is done by the cam-operated contact breaker points . To learn of the new , we must revisit the old . I am not sure that shorting coils give more power , but they can of course produce more voltage , in what is in effect a pulsed transformer .

Offline penno64

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #478 on: June 07, 2011, 09:31:49 AM »
Hi all,

Excuse the mess, but I had to try out the shorting coil using an AC cap.

** false alarm on the battery climb. crappy dmm and idiot user (me) ****

This is getting better

I still must admit, I am lost as how to employ these finds into the romero/mueller design.

Penno
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 09:57:26 AM by penno64 »

Offline DimaWari

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #479 on: June 07, 2011, 04:54:12 PM »
Hi penno64


I think I have an idea.. If you may sir, Why not use the driving transistor as shorting device? How? Have you seen how the HOT of TV/Monitor works?

 

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