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Author Topic: Shorting coil gives back more power  (Read 352913 times)

Offline Feynman

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #405 on: March 22, 2011, 08:28:25 PM »
Hey guys, check out this thread, there might be a breakthrough with Thane Heins' device.  David has done his own toroidal replication which appears to be COP=8

http://pesn.com/2011/03/20/9501793_Two_Toroid_Over-Unity_Gabriel_Device_--_Part_1/

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7833.new#new

P.S.  I started a new thread.

The Gabriel Device, possible COP=8
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10518.msg278875#new
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 09:30:49 PM by Feynman »

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #405 on: March 22, 2011, 08:28:25 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #406 on: March 22, 2011, 11:15:48 PM »
....
Does anybody have good and reliable circuit to dump cap at preset voltage to battery (at 100v dump cap to 36v battery bank)  ?


Hi joefr,

There is a patent application on just such a circuit you need, it is US20070222411 by Jean-Michel Cour.
(go here http://www.pat2pdf.org/ and copy and paste 20070222411 to freely download this patent).
The application text describes how the circuit works and includes component values too.  You can adjust the voltage divider resistors to choose the range for the comparator to fire a FET switch for discharging the capacitor as you need.

Gyula

PS Would you tell what way you create the sine wave in your coil?
    And what happens to the sine wave when you short it out? Why does it flatten out between the spikes?

Offline joefr

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #407 on: March 23, 2011, 12:15:30 AM »
Hi Gyula

Thanks for patent

Would you tell what way you create the sine wave in your coil?
For creating sine wave I use this big bicycle wheel from my other previous project.
I connected your circuit to generator coil and to FWBR, then I charge a cap 680uF 200V and for now manualy dumping cap to battery when it reaches 100V.

And what happens to the sine wave when you short it out? Why does it flatten out between the spikes?
I got 2 day ago my first oscilloscope and I am not yet familiar with all the settings  ???
I will take more photos with different setting and see if I can find the shorted sine wave.




 




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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #407 on: March 23, 2011, 12:15:30 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #408 on: March 23, 2011, 07:47:29 PM »
Hi joefr,

Very nicely built setup you have! 

Maybe it is not the scope settings but the ON time of the shorting switch?
First try to short only ,say, the positive peaks of the sinewave, for about 1-2 millisec duration. (In your scope shot you have nearly 10 millisec time for one full sinewave, and you wish to position the Hall sensor so that it would be ON for 1-2 msec at just at the positive peaks).

Later your manual damping of tha capacitor could be done by the circuit shown in the patent application (Unfortunately, Jean-Michel Cour died about 3 years ago, he was a very good engineer and experimenter.)

Gyula

Gyula

Offline joefr

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #409 on: March 24, 2011, 11:42:45 PM »
Hi Gyula and all others

I manage to record a short video of coil shorting. I tried many things but I always get flatten sine wave between the spikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1Sgf9v6PA

I will make a new more powerful generator to take advantage of coil shorting.
I will design it in SketchUP and send the design to machine shop to do the laser cutting all the parts.
I am thinking a similar design as watson generator with heavy flywheel.
I will be using 8 coils but I need proposal what will be better to use 7 magnet or 9 magnets?

And what diameter size of bottom magnets would be fine for good power generation with coil shorting (charging caps and then dump to battery ):
1. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N
2. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N
3. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N
4. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N

I am open to suggestions and ideas before I start designing in SketchUP  :)

Joe









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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #409 on: March 24, 2011, 11:42:45 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #410 on: March 25, 2011, 06:24:11 PM »
Hi Joe,

Thanks for the video.  At the moment I have no clue why the sineswaves flatten with the shorting (I assume both FETs are in good shape).  Maybe you could use a second probe on Channel 2 of your scope to check the squarewaves controlling the common gates and sources, if you have not checked it?  (Ground clip goes to common negative of the 4421 and input clip goes to the gates.)

MAybe a series capacitor in the some uF (or higher) range is the clue for this, as shown in Doug Konzen schematic, see the 40uF cap labeled as 'high bypass filter' in series with the AC input leg of the full wave diode bridge: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276614#msg276614   

Just wondering what is the FET type you use for switching?

Gyula

EDIT: be careful and do not connect the GND of CH1 probe to anywhere that has a different GND than the common negative of the 4421 when checking the gate-source drive signal.

ONE MORE Notice: in your photo showing the two Hall sensors above, both sensors are positioned at North poles. I ask one of the sensors should not be facing a South pole instead?


Hi Gyula and all others

I manage to record a short video of coil shorting. I tried many things but I always get flatten sine wave between the spikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1Sgf9v6PA

....
Joe

Offline nul-points

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #411 on: March 25, 2011, 10:33:49 PM »
Hi Gyula and all others

I manage to record a short video of coil shorting. I tried many things but I always get flatten sine wave between the spikes.

Joe

hi Joe

impressive build - nice work!!


i have an idea about your flattened sine wave...

i think maybe either the control signal, or possibly the MOSFET polarities are inverted

it looks to me like your coil is shorted EXACTLY when you DON'T WANT it

of, course, this would mean the coil gets UN-shorted at the peaks - allowing a narrow section of the high part of the sine voltage to develop as usual - and being narrow it would look like a spike!

maybe you could check that your P & N-type MOSFETS are really connected where you think they are

and if they are ok, then check the voltage output from the control chip to make sure it's voltage is high or low at the correct point to switch the MOSFETS to short or un-short the coil


hope this makes sense - and helps!

all the best
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #411 on: March 25, 2011, 10:33:49 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #412 on: March 25, 2011, 11:56:33 PM »
Hey Joe

I believe when the coil is shorted there can be no oscillation.
An inductor with current flowing when shorted, the current wants to continue. Only when the coil encounters a capacitance will it be able to reverse direction for oscillations or bemf. Its like a flywheel. Not exact, but current in a wire/inductors have inertial values.

Mags

Offline i_ron

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #413 on: March 26, 2011, 03:49:19 PM »
hi Joe


i think maybe either the control signal, or possibly the MOSFET polarities are inverted

it looks to me like your coil is shorted EXACTLY when you DON'T WANT it

of, course, this would mean the coil gets UN-shorted at the peaks - allowing a narrow section of the high part of the sine voltage to develop as usual - and being narrow it would look like a spike!

maybe you could check that your P & N-type MOSFETS are really connected where you think they are



hope this makes sense - and helps!

all the best
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Thats it!  I have to agree, good observation!

Ron

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #413 on: March 26, 2011, 03:49:19 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #414 on: March 26, 2011, 10:33:48 PM »
Hi nul-points,

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, unfortunately I could not see the forest from the tree.

One small correction to your post: the two MOSFETs are both N-channel types,  see schematic here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg278867#msg278867  and they paralleled gate-source electrodes are controlled at the same time either on or off, and they switch between their separate drain-drain electrodes. When both FETs are off, their body diodes are in opposing series connection between their drains hence any AC or DC voltage polarity are blocked by one or the other diodes. (This opposite series connection of the drain-source path works because once the channel is opened it is able to conduct current into both directions.)

@Joe, as I suggested earlier, first use only one Hall sensor and check it to short only one of polarities of the sine wave peaks and when it is ok you can proceed to shorting the other polarity with another Hall.

Thanks,  Gyula

Offline joefr

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #415 on: March 27, 2011, 01:24:14 AM »
Hi Gyula and all others

Thanks all of you for positive comments and suggestions

Now lets answer the questions:
Gyula
Just wondering what is the FET type you use for switching?
I am using this type of FET IRFB5620 PbF
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfb5620pbf.pdf
and this type of Hall sensor:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=searchProducts&searchTerm=680-7481&x=0&y=0
The gen coil resistance is 13.4 ohm and inductance is 123.5 mH

In your photo showing the two Hall sensors above, both sensors are positioned at North poles. I ask one of the sensors should not be facing a South pole instead?
I made new Hall sensor layout which triggers on both magnetic poles south and north, look at the bottom video.

I put small trigger magnets on the side of the wheel. All small trigger magnets are south pole oriented so they trigger mosfets only at positive part of the sine wave.

MAybe a series capacitor in the some uF (or higher) range is the clue for this, as shown in Doug Konzen schematic, see the 40uF cap labeled as 'high bypass filter' in series with the AC input leg of the full wave diode bridge:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276614#msg276614
Yes I am using this circuit with 40uF series cap but with your circuit mosfet TC4421 driver

I record new video and show all the steps which all of you suggested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPagVQGfDDU

Joe

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #415 on: March 27, 2011, 01:24:14 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #416 on: March 27, 2011, 02:13:35 PM »
Hi Joe,

Thanks for the good informative video.

Please check the FETs gate-source pulse width how many millisecond it is?  (shown as starting in video at 0:55) Also check what is a shortest pulse width you can achive? (by moving the Hall sensor radially away from the trigger magnets)

If I suppose you use the 5 ms/DIV setting in the video when showing the gate pulses then what I can make out is the pulse width changes roughly between 2.5ms to 4ms: this is STILL very wide for the shorting, considering your one full sine wave time is about 8-9ms.  It would mean the shorting pulse would lay over almost for the total half sine wave (if I consider only shorting one half of the sine wave) and this would explain why it is like the gate control pulse would be inverted: using the shorting on both polarities of the sine wave the shorting times cover up both halves of the sinewave and this tricks us all.

(you have chosen good types of MOSFETs and Hall sensors.)

Thanks,  Gyula

Offline joefr

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #417 on: March 27, 2011, 07:21:57 PM »
Hi Gyula

I tested today the coil shorting with circuit which is using only hall sensor and mosfet ( without TC4421 driver ).
I got the exactly same result, the coil is shorted too long.
So I am thinking that this wheel setup is not good for testing coil shorting, because trigger magnets are positioned on inside part of the wheel.
I put smaller trigger magnets as showed in the video, but because they spin slower the result is almost the same that before I used generator magnets to trigger.

So i will build the new wheel, something in this way at the bottom photo:

I ask this two questions in previous post and I ask for suggestion if anyone has more experience with this:
I will be using 8 coils but I need proposal what will be better to use 7 magnet, 8 magnets or 9 magnets?

And what diameter size of bottom magnets would be fine for good power generation with coil shorting (charging caps with spikes and then dump to battery ):
1. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N
2. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N
3. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N
4. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N

Joe

Offline Feynman

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #418 on: March 27, 2011, 08:08:04 PM »
Hey guys,

I have a 4.5cm x 0.5cm ferrite rod with about 100-150 turns of 30AWG enameled magnet wire in one layer.  From your experience in coil shorting, what is the best configuration for an electromagnet?   One layer of wire?  More than one layer?  Can I wind the seperate layers individually, and connect the layers input leads with alligator clips or is this too much stray inductance for a 50khz pulsed electromagnet? (Should the multiple layers be continuous?)

Thanks,
Feynman

Offline Arthurs

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #419 on: March 28, 2011, 09:32:24 PM »
I made a simple coil short-circuit test, but it seems just the circuit voltage increases, the total energy has not increased.
Specific:
1) If a direct short reed switch coil, the speed decreased. Speed ​​drop means reduced output energy.
2) a reed switch if the series capacitor (0.47-47uf all done between the experiment), and then in parallel with the coil, the speed has not changed. But the voltage and current output has decreased significantly.

I think we proved that this method can really increase the output energy, you must use incandescent experiments.
Using the LED does not prove anything. While the use of short-circuit mode LED will light, but this is just the voltage increases to the LED's forward voltage.
But I do not have a big magnet for incandescent bulbs in the experiment.

Where is my experiment is not correct?

 

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