Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 517521
  • *Total Topics: 15429
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 3
  • *Guests: 20
  • *Total: 23

Author Topic: Shorting coil gives back more power  (Read 351867 times)

Offline romerouk

  • without_ads
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 365
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #180 on: March 07, 2011, 02:13:34 AM »
@bolt
Thank you for your tips.
I am only hopping to get it running without a battery as everyone here, I know is not easy task
I am not relying only on the shorting of the coils to get it self powered.
One other important factor here is also the mass of the rotor and the Hope is the last that goes.
It is already running from a capacitor and loses the power after about a minute but with small improvements everyday I can slowly increase that time, still I a hopping...
Regarding the SS AC Relay I am surprised to get that voltage increase without any signal applied to it, just the terminals connected to the coil.I am not using it now in my setup, I have tried it and saw that voltage increase and the wave changed..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #180 on: March 07, 2011, 02:13:34 AM »

Offline bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #181 on: March 07, 2011, 02:21:46 AM »
Also, when you found the output from the coils is still not enough to run from a capacitor then you had shorting on BOTH sine wave peaks or only on a single single peak like in the scope shot?
Thanks,  Gyula

Oh yes i forget you can short both side of the sine wave for even more power. Design gets pretty complex though because now all your electronic switching must be floating as no common ground. Use 2 separate tuned series caps thru a Pi Tank and you have to mix the two signals using a balun alike RF mixer to down convert impedance into dump cap via the FWBR. Please don't just try and stuff them together down one cap you will waste all your hard work and effort.

 The circuit will be balanced very much like 300 ohm feeder amplifiers if you want the best possible power transfer.

Offline bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #182 on: March 07, 2011, 02:38:23 AM »
@bolt
Thank you for your tips.
I am only hopping to get it running without a battery as everyone here, I know is not easy task
I am not relying only on the shorting of the coils to get it self powered.
One other important factor here is also the mass of the rotor and the Hope is the last that goes.
It is already running from a capacitor and loses the power after about a minute but with small improvements everyday I can slowly increase that time, still I a hopping...
Regarding the SS AC Relay I am surprised to get that voltage increase without any signal applied to it, just the terminals connected to the coil.I am not using it now in my setup, I have tried it and saw that voltage increase and the wave changed..

You are doing very well and learning fast. Im not knocking you for that as you have now proven to everyone that coil shorting is a very valid method but requires some refinement in the art to make it work ready for looping. I seen others go through the very same growing pains. If i can help get you there faster Im sure that's a good thing!

The capacitor is holding up well which means you need some more shorts, a bit more tuning and you will have a looper.  BTW the mass doesn't come into it in fact a small device has a much higher ratio of friction and losses compared to a large machine. For these generators to make serious power bigger is better. Of course eventually IMO solid state is the way to go which is why magnacoaster and kapadanze plus others all started with mechanical OU generators and now you know about coil shorting then go solid state from what you will learn.

There is no difference from a wheel going around with a magnet on it passing a coil OR have a coil with a magnet beside it and pulse it stationary. Only provision the trigger coils sits over the Bloch Wall so the coil collapse when sine shorted cuts the magnetic lines of force. The result is the same.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #182 on: March 07, 2011, 02:38:23 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline popolibero

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 81
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #183 on: March 07, 2011, 04:47:02 PM »
Hi guys,

I'm working on shorting coils as well. I started on a small bedini 3 coiler which I modified from 3 to 6 magnets (higher frequency for less work) and made it hall triggered. I then tried the conehead mosfet arrangement with two more halls which works well, although I run the hall signal through a schmitt-trigger gate to invert the signal. I also tried using the "shorting signal" to trigger a 555 timer circuit where I can adjust the duty cycle from 0 to 100% besides frequency, so that for one hall impulse I would get many shortings thanks to the 555. The drive circuits and mosfet have a very fast rise fall time (20-50 nS range..) so it should be quite close to a mecanical switch.

For now I don't have more out than in, btw forgot to mention that the collecting cap (50uF)gets pulsed at a lower frequency into a 240/110V - 12V step down transformer, then through a FWBR and to a load + low voltage cap.

I've put 4 generator coils in series for a total of about 150V which then gets shorted and give spikes to almost 1000V. But somehow pulsing more then once per peak didn't give a greater result, I got many smaller pulses or one big, but the result is about the same, as I can monitor that from the collecting cap voltage since it gets discharged from the step down circuit at a constant rate. These were generator coils with many windings and small gauge.

Since I can't fit bigger coils into that frame I decided to go solid state and simulate the "motor" with a tank circuit, coil and cap in parallel driven by 555 timer and fet as a "motor coil" with a very large generator coil sitting on top of it which then gets shorted in same manner. Still working on that trying different generator coils. Bifilar coils connected in series give a huge ringing (many vibrations that last a long time) but less voltage. I guess it's also about finding the right coil, but so far I think the higher the sine voltage the better? I have to modify the circuit to try many shortings per peak since it's solid state, so no hall. I'll let you knowhow it goes...

regards,
Mario

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4021
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #184 on: March 07, 2011, 07:10:41 PM »
Hi Romero,

Thanks for the scope shot on the parallel waves. I think your sentence: "The voltage is almost double when the AC SS relay is connected." is the possible explanation in that the SSR includes a snubber circuit across its output side (embedded in the body). Normally a snubber circuit for 50-60Hz mains frequency operation in such SSRs includes a series RC circuit, connected inside in parallel with the output of the SSR. The possible range is for R=120-200 Ohm and for C=47-100nF or around that range and I think you create a near resonance situation when you connect the SSR output to the coil.
You may check this if you have some similar value capacitor at hand (no need for the series R) and connect some caps (one at a time) in parallel with the coil and watch how the waveform amplitude changes, ok? 
Also, when you have the SSR connected in parallel with the coil, watch the output waveform and slow down the rotor mechanically because then you can 'tune' the created frequency which either sweeps through resonance or gets further away from it, you will see it from the amplitude change (highest amplitude is at resonance of course). You can do this 'tuning' when you connect capacitor(s) across the coil of course.

When you have done these tests please write the results.

Would you reflect to my yesterdays question on your shorting also the negative peaks of the sinewave when you described your running from capacitor?

Thanks, Gyula


@gyulasun
Picture with the wave when the SS AC Relay is connected.When nothing connected I get a normal single line sinewave.The voltage is almost double when the AC SS relay is connected.As I said before, I connect only the 240v side nothing on the input of the relay.I have more than one AC SS Relays and all are doing the same, normaly the system should not do anything without input to the relay.
Picture with the both relays I use, AC for shorting and DC to dump the charge from the capacitor, once for every rotation.
I hope there are some ather people to test what I am saying, I am very courious to see...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #184 on: March 07, 2011, 07:10:41 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline romerouk

  • without_ads
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 365
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #185 on: March 08, 2011, 02:18:47 AM »
@gyulasun
I was using the positive and negative wave peak for shorting when I tried to run from the capacitor only.
I have also tried what you suggested with the AC SS Relay and at any speed or with different capacitors connected as you suggested the parallel wave is close to the main one and I think that it is normal to be like that.
If I change the value of the capacitor in series with the AC relay then I get the parallel wave at different position or even shifted, I am sure is about resonance.
I have got the best results shorting the wave all the way, multiple times using a 555 circuit and SS DC Relay.
Today I am too tired to do more testing and pictures but I will post more results soon.

Offline bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #186 on: March 08, 2011, 03:54:19 PM »
Keep shorts top of sine where Voltage node is max and current node is tuned 90 degrees lagging. Use fets or IGBTS for shorting don't use those  SS DC relays they are designed to turn off and on slowly using snubber. Kone and others did all this YEARS ago.

AC SS relays are a 100% no no! They will only switch off the zero points which creates a secondary echo sine wave.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 04:20:04 PM by bolt »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #186 on: March 08, 2011, 03:54:19 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Mark69

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 277
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #187 on: March 08, 2011, 04:35:39 PM »
will the shorting cause the caps to eventually fail?  Understanding solid state is the way to go but will these components wear out as well?

Offline popolibero

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 81
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #188 on: March 08, 2011, 05:25:11 PM »
I've been going through the posts on this thread and would like to give my two cents on a few things I've noticed. Someone wrote you need N-S arrangement magnets to get a sine wave, well clearly he's never put a scope on a coil pulsed by an all N rotor  ;).

A few people seem to confuse the flyback kick when a charged coil is let loose with what is being discussed here.

Romerouk, you said that you get acceleration when you short the coil through most of the cycle, I get the same when I do that. This is "normal" with an open coil core, This is actually what the Kromrey generator principle is based on. You wouldn't get this result with a core closed on itself like all traditional transformer cores... I don't know if this is what we want in this application though, as Bolt pointed out.

Anyway, keep up the good work! ;D

regards,
Mario



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #188 on: March 08, 2011, 05:25:11 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4021
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #189 on: March 08, 2011, 06:03:53 PM »
Bolt:

Romero described how he connects the SS relay to the coil and also see his post here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276868#msg276868

I mention this because below your text means as if Romero had used the SS relay for coil shorting. He wrote he used the output side of the AC SS  parallel with the coil (and he did the shorting with one or two reeds) and he did not control the AC SS at all at its input pins.
And he used the DC SS to discharge the puffer capacitor once during one revolution. It surely does this task nicely. See here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276862#msg276862

I thought this needs to be clarified so that other readers who are not fully aware of the exact setup should not get wrong info.

Gyula

Keep shorts top of sine where Voltage node is max and current node is tuned 90 degrees lagging. Use fets or IGBTS for shorting don't use those  SS DC relays they are designed to turn off and on slowly using snubber. Kone and others did all this YEARS ago.

AC SS relays are a 100% no no! They will only switch off the zero points which creates a secondary echo sine wave.

Offline DreamThinkBuild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #190 on: March 08, 2011, 06:43:23 PM »
Hi All,

If you know your base frequency then you can divide it into quarters to find the frequency that will cut the peaks. So if your base frequency is 60hz, 60hz*4=240hz. 240hz will cut the 60hz signal 4 times 2 at the zero points and 2 at the +/- peaks. You could go 2 then just shift the phase also. So if you spike at 240hz to cascade at that peak it would be at 240hz*4hz=960hz. It will take a lot of phase tweaking or some kind of DSP chip to get it accurate at the next cascade.

Here is a example using circuit simulator (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/) :

Quote
$ 1 5.0E-6 27.727228452313398 50 5.0 50
159 320 432 320 304 0 20.0 1.0E10
T 224 304 320 432 0 2.0 1.0 -4.142115187299905 3.975745281449844 0.999
w 224 432 144 432 0
v 144 304 144 432 0 1 60.0 120.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
R 352 240 352 192 0 5 240.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 352 240 352 368 0
w 352 368 336 368 0
w 320 304 400 304 0
w 320 432 400 432 0
r 400 304 400 432 0 200.0
w 144 304 224 304 0
o 9 64 0 35 1280.0 6.4 0 -1

Doesn't have to be a sine wave input, a square wave signal will also work in the sim.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #190 on: March 08, 2011, 06:43:23 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #191 on: March 08, 2011, 06:58:36 PM »
will the shorting cause the caps to eventually fail?  Understanding solid state is the way to go but will these components wear out as well?

Eventually most things wear out. TV sets usually die after 10-15 years after the electrolytic caps dry out and fail and the solder ages causing dry joints especially around HV points.  For high power pulse system then you need AC motor run oil caps is the best thing to use.

Are you that worried for Solid State generator only lasting 15 years before it needs a service?  A flimsy homebuilt generator with revolving wheels and magnets lucky if it lasts 15 days! LOL

Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5761
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #192 on: March 08, 2011, 07:18:09 PM »
I never thought to use the Sim for shorting. Glad it works.  =]

But there is something I was afraid of. I learned it while experimenting with an AV plug setup.

I found that with the AV plug, that the input power increased when loading the cap charged by the av plug.  And we also have that here.

I copied your Sim code and changed the switch freq to 2400hz. 10 times faster, could be more but the constant switching recommended by Stefan is why I tried.  ;]

I made a change to the active switch also. If you edit it, they start at 20ohm on res. ;]

I also added a scope shot of the input power. The scope may not show up when imported, as it didnt with the above code. Right click on the resistor and add scope, and right click on the input supply and add scope.  Right click on the power in scope shot and mark it for power consumpsion and negative peak readings to know pos and neg peaks.

The spdt switch turnes the switching off to compare.  We get more out, but we suffer more in also.
That was what I was afraid of. =[

Get the circuit sim at falstad.com

here is my code....

$ 1 5.0E-6 27.727228452313398 50 5.0 50
159 384 352 384 224 0 0.1 1.0E10
T 288 224 384 352 0 2.0 1.0 -0.362521623216979 0.22798362054968843 0.999
w 288 352 208 352 0
v 208 224 208 352 0 1 60.0 120.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
R 400 160 400 112 0 5 2400.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 416 288 400 288 0
w 384 224 464 224 0
w 384 352 464 352 0
r 464 224 464 352 0 200.0
w 208 224 288 224 0
w 416 288 416 208 0
S 416 208 416 160 0 1 false 0
o 8 64 0 35 598.6310706507378 2.993155353253689 0 -1
o 3 64 1 291 640.0 9.765625E-5 1 -1


Mags

Edit   sorry for the nasty screen shot   Im at lunch  will repost later if anyone wants to see it more clearly. ;]    The switch was off for the first half of the scope shot and on for the second. You can see the power rise with multi pulsing, but power in also climbs. Not to say this has anything to do with using motor gen as input if there is no drag. ;]

Offline i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #193 on: March 08, 2011, 07:28:56 PM »
Kone and others did all this YEARS ago.


Not so. Kone started this in the spring of last year with some crude mechanical switching. He has progressed to the point of FET switching but is far from multiple switching at this time.

His published fet switching directly from the hall device is not good engineering. His claims are not repeatable by woopy or myself.

Ron



Offline bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #194 on: March 08, 2011, 07:52:51 PM »
SIM's are good i published plenty but remember they can not show Radiant Energy effects and any attempt for a simple math program to show a real gain creates an "impossible" divide by zero error and it crashes.

In practice keep the HF shorts on the sine peaks prevents i/p power lugging.

 

OneLink