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Author Topic: Shorting coil gives back more power  (Read 352912 times)

Offline woopy

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #150 on: March 03, 2011, 11:42:05 PM »
Hi Gyula

Yes we crossed our post yesterday but no problem at all

Just for your question yes i use the exact described circuit in the video but i think that after your recent post it is OK

For the hall sensor i used the same SS443A but one is simply flipped 180 degree, so one is actuated by a south pole and the second by a North pole. It is why i get the posituve and negative shorted trace on the scope. The advantage of the 2 hall sensor is that i can tune each indepedantly exactly at the right place along the rotor.
Just to notice on my drawing in the video i try to represent the second flipped Hall sensor but i have inverted the + and 0 please correct it.

And now thank's for the schematic without the Mosfet driver i will also try it ASAP  ( don't worry i am not racing but simply very motivated)

Now and not least  i noticed with this experiment that the shorting of the coil produces  the same voltage INDEPENDENTLY of the rotor speed but DEPENDENTLY of the load resistance.

I mean if as per the video "test 5" i have 13 LED in parallel the shorting voltage produces  about 4.2 volts(on my setup of course) at all speed of the rotor.

That means that as per the same setup with the same load resistance,, from a  very low rotor speed up to very high rotor speed the PRODUCED SHORTED  VOLTAGE is constant ??

In the same config if i install a Neon bulb instead of the 13 LED in parallel , the produced shorted voltage will be about 90 volts at all speed.

So it iseems to be not necessary to have high rotor speed to get more PRODUCED SHORTED VOLTAGE (PSV), as if the basic setup (coilwinding , impedance , inductance, magnet gauss etc ) once in the SHORTING MODE  stays constant indepedantly of the speed.

And of course  i can not prevent me to think at the FERRIS wheel of John Bedini which spin very slowly . Is JB  using also a kind of shorting the coils in the device  ??


OK enough for tonight

Hope this helps

and good luck at all

Laurent

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #150 on: March 03, 2011, 11:42:05 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #151 on: March 04, 2011, 12:08:27 AM »
HI Laurent,

I must finish again, now all I wish to say is that single white LED behaves exactly like it would be a 3.3V Zener diode (paralleling many of them slightly reduced this voltage towards 2.9-3V or so). I say this because this behavior is what makes you believe you wrote in red whenever you have the LEDs as the load.  Any time you do not have the LEDs in place but have other loads like a resistor the voltage level will be higher than 3-4V and will be RPM dependent. Tomorrow will comment some more.

Gyula

Offline desa

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #152 on: March 04, 2011, 03:17:42 AM »
@gyulasun 
Thank you on your circuit. It is something I was looking for long time. I am setting it up to make replication. One thing I am unsure so please clarify if possible. The charge battery SW1, can you please explain function of this switch. Is it simply on switch or the component of some sort as the timing function.
@ Laurant
Great videos. Keep it coming. It helps so much to see it. Some of us are more visually inclined. I would eventually like to integrate this circuit in my Windmill to bust capacity and eliminate heating problem in the coils.
David.

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #152 on: March 04, 2011, 03:17:42 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #153 on: March 04, 2011, 12:20:47 PM »
---snip---
Bipolar Switch Hall-Effect:
Bipolar sensor ICs are designed to be sensitive switches. (Note that the term "bipolar" refers to magnetic polarities, and is not related to bipolar semiconductor chip structures.) A bipolar switch has consistent hysteresis, but individual units have switchpoints that occur in either relatively more positive or more negative ranges. These devices find application where closely-spaced, alternating north and south poles are used, resulting in minimal required magnetic signal amplitude, ΔB, because the alternation of magnetic field polarity ensures switching, and the consistent hysteresis ensures periodicity.
http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/bipolar/index.asp

Hi joefr,

Yes, it seems the best choice for alternatingly positioned magnets to use the bipolar type Hall sensor, that responds to both magnetic poles. I have not used such, only unipolar types. It is interesting Laurent finds the SS443A Hall sensor type reacts to the opposite pole from its back side, I never tried it with my types, lol  (I used Infineon TLE series TLE4905 unipolar in the past.)
If some type of Hall sensor operates correctly from its back side to the North  pole and also correctly from its front side to the South pole, then there is no need for a bipolar type Hall device.  (hmmm...)

Thanks, Gyula

EDIT:  Will draw schematic with a 4421, maybe tonight.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 01:35:59 PM by gyulasun »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #154 on: March 04, 2011, 12:47:48 PM »
@gyulasun 
Thank you on your circuit. It is something I was looking for long time. I am setting it up to make replication. One thing I am unsure so please clarify if possible. The charge battery SW1, can you please explain function of this switch. Is it simply on switch or the component of some sort as the timing function.
....

Hi David,

This is what I drew
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10398.0;attach=51183   and all the rest of the schematics (except my modification of yesterday) shown in the thread on coil shorting is drawn by Doug Konzen and he tested them too, I am not sure if he tested the switch SW1 you asking. He wrote at EVGRAY yahoo group that the timing for SW1 should be as follows:
When the puffer capacitor (shown as 3500uF/100V) is charged up via the diode bridge, SW1 should be open. And when there is no charging current coming from the bridge, SW1 is activated, its duty cycle needs experimenting.
So it sounds as SW1 is operated in between the spikes that are caused by the MOSFET switch, charging time for the puffer cap is to be considered too.

rgds,  Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #154 on: March 04, 2011, 12:47:48 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #155 on: March 04, 2011, 04:26:14 PM »
Hi Gyula and all

i can not open your drawing the picture encounters problem at opening.

The Hall sensor TLE 4905 is unipolar and has low ma amp draw, but my dealer  run out of stock and i had to buy the cheaper but more consumer SS443A. Both of them work on the 2 sides (one side with a north pole and the other side on a south). Just for info the TLE 4935 is bipolar but turn on on a south pole and STAYS ON  until a north pole faces it. So it is not as a reed switch which  turn on and than cut off when a pole faces it (north or south). So for fast switching i would prefer unipolar Hall sensor. I don't know if it exists a hall sensor which works as a reed switch ?

For completing my previous post, i made 3 test . where i replace the led with a resistor

1- resistor of 100 ohm  = about 2 ma  and 5 volt peak pulsed (produced shorted voltage) at all speed
2- resistor of 220 ohm =  about 1+ ma and 10 volts peak pulsed (PSV) at all speed
3- resistor 1 kohm      =  about nothing (can not read on the meter) and 20 peak pulsed (PSV) at all speed

seems to be in adequation with my red writing.

Any idea ?

hope this helps.

Laurent




Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #156 on: March 04, 2011, 06:27:10 PM »
Hi Laurent,

Which picture you cannot open? The link I gave to David in my reply #156
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10398.0;attach=51183
directly links to the picture what I uploaded in my earlier post here (it is the same):
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276291#msg276291

Ok on the SS443A unipolar sensor: once it works for both poles for you, no need for using another type.
Regarding the bipolar type sensors, as I wrote I have never used them, once you find they remain ON till the other pole comes, then they are not good for the task here. So no need to buy and use them.

Laurent, please consider the following:
if you used so far the two SS443A sensors which were driving the two FETs like in the schematic here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276272#msg276272 and assuming you build and use a correct schematic then it means that the two FETs are always switched ON, except for the moments when any one of the Halls switches them off! A crazy situation I tried to explain in my Reply #150 (the first in this page) and I mention this just to emphesize it again. This is why an inverting circuit (represented by a 2N2222 transistor) should be used between the Hall output and the FETs input, as I showed it in my modified schematic in my Reply #150 too.

So I ask whether your results with the 3 tests shown in your last post above were received with a transistor already between the Hall and the FETs or without a transistor? 

Thanks,  Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #156 on: March 04, 2011, 06:27:10 PM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #157 on: March 04, 2011, 11:42:51 PM »
woopy,  Download the picture and rename the picture changing the extension from .jpg to .png and it will open (it's a .png file). 

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #158 on: March 04, 2011, 11:50:59 PM »

I will be ordering components for this setup, so could you please draw new schematic with the 4421 driver too.


Hi joefr,

I attached a driver circuit schematic with 4421 inverting type chip, it has the same pinout like the 4422.
Here is a data sheet to both chips, Page 7 is to be studied for advice on supply bypassing and grounding.
http://www.micrel.com/_PDF/mic4421.pdf

Gyula

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #158 on: March 04, 2011, 11:50:59 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #159 on: March 05, 2011, 12:03:12 AM »
Hi gyula

Yes the picture of your reply  156 to David does not open for me.

The 3 test are made without the Transistor circuit. i use the circuit as per the  included pix, i also tried the modification you have proposed for this circuit but it did not work for me. I know that this circuit seems strange but it works as it is, i mean  with the connection between the 0 of the Hall sensor and the Source of the fets.  Doug seems to also use it in his schematic.
Finally i replicated the circuit with the transistor 2N2222A as per your recent schematic and got no succes, as if it does not short the coil at all . I will check all this tomorrow.

Anyway thanks for the input and good night

Laurent

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #160 on: March 05, 2011, 12:29:34 AM »
Hi Laurent,

Ok, I will study your schematic and comment it tomorrow.

Sorry for the picture problem, somehow it got renamed to extension jpg but it was a png file.  Now I fixed it to be a real jpg file and attached it here. It is the same schematic I showed you here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276291#msg276291 using the simplest reed control for the two FETs.

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #160 on: March 05, 2011, 12:29:34 AM »
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Offline Qwert

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #161 on: March 05, 2011, 08:39:52 AM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #162 on: March 05, 2011, 11:59:23 AM »
Hi gyula

Yes the picture of your reply  156 to David does not open for me.

The 3 test are made without the Transistor circuit. i use the circuit as per the  included pix, i also tried the modification you have proposed for this circuit but it did not work for me. I know that this circuit seems strange but it works as it is, i mean  with the connection between the 0 of the Hall sensor and the Source of the fets.  Doug seems to also use it in his schematic.
Finally i replicated the circuit with the transistor 2N2222A as per your recent schematic and got no succes, as if it does not short the coil at all . I will check all this tomorrow.

Anyway thanks for the input and good night

Laurent

Hi Laurent,

I studied the schematic you show above. Now I understand it and although it is a strange interpretation of using a Hall sensor, it is correct. In fact I never checked it critically because Doug wrote it worked (he drew it first) and I did not check how the Hall device is connected. 
The strange thing in it is that the positive supply pin of the Hall directly goes to the gates of the FETs, hence the positive 9V (or any supply voltage up to 18V or so) is also directly goes into the gates. And the output of the Hall sensor goes directly to the source of the FETs and the 10k resistor is between the gates and sources, i.e. between the positive supply pin and the output pin of the Hall. And there is no any connection between the negative point of the 9V supply and any other points of the FETs.  When the Hall sensor is activated by a coming magnet the output pin of the Hall simply connects the negative polarity of the 9V battery to the source electrodes of the FETs, hence the FETs can conduct and when the Hall switches off its output pin goes open circuit again and the FETs gate-source capacitance is disharged by the 10k resistor, this is how the FETs switch off.
Now it is clear that my earlier suggestion with the gray and blue wires in this link is wrong: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276272#msg276272  and very sorry for not giving a deeper understanding of your (i.e. Doug) schematic on the Hall connections EARLIER.
(Normally the positive pin of a Hall sensor goes to the gates of the FETs via a resistor (of 5k-10k-22KOhm) and never directly, and normally the negative pin of a Hall goes directly to the sources of the FETs, and normally the output pin of a Hall goes directly to the gates to control them.)

Regarding the 2N2222 circuit, if it still does not work for you, I suggest some measurements with a voltmeter when the 9V battery is connected but there is no any magnet near any of the Hall sensors. In this situation (I refer to the schematic here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10398.msg276614#msg276614 ) please measure the voltage directly between the base and emmitter of the 2N2222: it should show any value between 0.62 to 0.7V, i.e. a normal forward bias for a Silicon transistor. (DC voltmeter positive probe goes to the base, negative probe goes to the emitter)
And then please measure also the voltage between the collector and emitter of the 2N2222: it should be under 0.2V i.e. the saturation voltage (Vsat) of the transistor. (DC voltmeter positive probe goes to the collector, negative probe goes to the emitter)
Now if these two voltages are ok, then please put a magnet with correct pole near to one of the Hall sensors and check whether the collector-emitter voltage of the earlier 0.2V changes immediately to the 9V battery voltage? If not, there is something wrong: either connection problems, wrong wire places, wrong transistor, wrong Hall device etc. And then repeat the same test with the other magnet pole for the other Hall sensor, it should cause the same changes in the voltages as the previous pole did.

Thanks,  Gyula
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 12:22:12 PM by gyulasun »

Offline woopy

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #163 on: March 06, 2011, 09:54:11 PM »
Hi Gyula

thanks for input

now we are OK on the basic circuit. Just for info i tried the same circuit with only 1 FET and it doesn 't give good results.

So now i am trying to test different coils and core to see if i can increase the "produced shortage voltage" and the spectrum seems to be really large. as each system produces very different results . But so far the constant direction remains.
 For a given system, the shorted pulsed  produced voltage stays constant at all rotor speed.
 So to be very clear ,if the speed of the rotor increases, you get more pulses of the same voltage, but never  a higher voltage.

OK it is only the beginning and perhaps tomorrow will bring better ideas

Good luck at all

Laurent

Offline bolt

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #164 on: March 06, 2011, 09:54:13 PM »
This is quite old technology for a few of us although some of you have only just started to use it. Kone has been shorting coils on his generators for a few years now and advancing to multiple shorts per sine wave PEAKS only. For each time you hit the coil peak sine wave the power is amplified again and again reaching hundreds of volts from what would normally be just a few volts without shorting. Its a hammer on the bell!

To do this properly requires an AVR/ Arduino/PIC  micro processor to sample the incoming wave form then apply 5 to 100 shorts each lasting just a couple of uS's right on TOP of the sine starting 2 degrees BTDC and ending 2 degrees ATDC creates incredible high power and high frequency harmonics.

The "poor mans" version is to use 555's in order of Zero Point Schmitt trigger, Sine wave peak delay, Window Width generator, Coil shorting Spike Astable running usually at least 20 to 100 times faster than carrier the o/p goes into coil shorting IGBT's rated at least 1500v and very low turn on ohms. This type of setup with a large heavy coils should generate hundreds of watts.

This modulates the carrier and these harmonics can then be pulled off using series resonance tuned RF alike demodulator power stages more advanced then just adding a cap and hoping for the best. Requires RF tuning and matching skills to capture this properly without wasting it.

Its the basis for Ismael Aviso MEG technology once you get up to shorting coils of several thousands of volts and dumping into HV oil caps.

BTW try adding neo magnets in 5 to 1 ratio as Magnacoaster and drive only at the Bloch Wall. Now you have solid state generator and dump those reed switches and halls no longer required.

 

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