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Author Topic: Shorting coil gives back more power  (Read 362334 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #420 on: March 29, 2011, 12:36:05 AM »
Hi Joe,

It is possible the mechanical setup as a whole you happen to use has got the inherent 'property' of not letting the control pulses be shorter... maybe you wish to use a small reed switch instead of the Hall to control the 4421 as a last test in this respect.  Of course this is up to you, likewise if you really wish to build another setup and not wanting to explore further behaviors of the present one like changing series capacitors, several reed switches in series like Romero mentioned for getting narrower shorting time etc.
Unfortunately I cannot answer your questions on the number of  magnets, or the type of magnets, sorry.

Keep up the good work.

Gyula



Hi Gyula

I tested today the coil shorting with circuit which is using only hall sensor and mosfet ( without TC4421 driver ).
I got the exactly same result, the coil is shorted too long.
So I am thinking that this wheel setup is not good for testing coil shorting, because trigger magnets are positioned on inside part of the wheel.
I put smaller trigger magnets as showed in the video, but because they spin slower the result is almost the same that before I used generator magnets to trigger.

So i will build the new wheel, something in this way at the bottom photo:

I ask this two questions in previous post and I ask for suggestion if anyone has more experience with this:
I will be using 8 coils but I need proposal what will be better to use 7 magnet, 8 magnets or 9 magnets?

And what diameter size of bottom magnets would be fine for good power generation with coil shorting (charging caps with spikes and then dump to battery ):
1. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N
2. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N
3. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N
4. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N

Joe

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #420 on: March 29, 2011, 12:36:05 AM »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #421 on: March 29, 2011, 05:40:18 AM »
Hi Gyula

I tested today the coil shorting with circuit which is using only hall sensor and mosfet ( without TC4421 driver ).
I got the exactly same result, the coil is shorted too long.
So I am thinking that this wheel setup is not good for testing coil shorting, because trigger magnets are positioned on inside part of the wheel.
I put smaller trigger magnets as showed in the video, but because they spin slower the result is almost the same that before I used generator magnets to trigger.

So i will build the new wheel, something in this way at the bottom photo:

I ask this two questions in previous post and I ask for suggestion if anyone has more experience with this:
I will be using 8 coils but I need proposal what will be better to use 7 magnet, 8 magnets or 9 magnets?

And what diameter size of bottom magnets would be fine for good power generation with coil shorting (charging caps with spikes and then dump to battery ):
1. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-20-10-N
2. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-30-10-N
3. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-35-05-N
4. http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/S-60-05-N

Joe


Maybe optical sensors would be more exacting.  I have found that magnets, even from the same batch can be a bit different from one another. Ive been able to adjust my reeds away from the rotor just enough that just one of the 16 magnets activate the reed. The same may go for hall sensors. But optical will be as exact as the positions set for the sensor to read.  Most printers have optical wheels that it is hard to even see the gaps in the wheel. So timing on/off can be made absolutely predictable.  =]

Mags

Offline Thaelin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #422 on: March 29, 2011, 06:18:47 AM »
   If you want to go with optical trigger, I know a place that has N type optical transistors and they will work very well with either laser pointer or hi output  leds. I just got 30 of them for $.95 each. You can order on line as well.   Try at Surplus Gizmo's. They have say a couple a thousand of them.

thay

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #422 on: March 29, 2011, 06:18:47 AM »
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Offline Tito L. Oracion

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #423 on: March 29, 2011, 10:41:22 AM »
off course shorting coil gives more back power because of the input and the effect of the input, and it gives back more power depends on material and the design you make, they will all contribute for addition.  :)

just crossing   :)  ;)

Offline joefr

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #424 on: March 29, 2011, 11:19:50 AM »
Hi Mags
Maybe optical sensors would be more exacting
This is great idea thanks.

Hi Thay
Can you please post a link to this N type optical transistors.

Joe

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #424 on: March 29, 2011, 11:19:50 AM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #425 on: March 29, 2011, 01:07:05 PM »
@Joe:

I post a circuit which uses optical gap sensors to switch ON and OFF at an adjustable angle very precisely. It was not intended for coil shorting but can be adapted easily. One needs as many "fingers" as magnets, but only one pair of optical sensors (defining the angle). The optical sensors are triggered by the leading edge of the "fingers".

The "fingers" switching the two optical sensors could be on the circumference of the wheel with the magnets (not necessarily on a separate wheel).

The optical sensors worked much better than any hall sensor or reed switch solution I tried. Although, the optical sensors need about 5 mA to drive the LEDs (shining in the gaps).

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Tudi

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #426 on: March 29, 2011, 02:48:20 PM »
Guys. Pls, 1 simple question : What is input P and what is output P ?
As I understand that P=U*I, here you guys get nice U(volts) as output but probably with the cost of I.
Can anyone post a conversion factor for this whole ghizmo ? It's really nice to see a lot of enthusiasts, but if you drive to achieve a 100% conversion ratio you would need to eliminate everything. It makes logical that the more things you add they will convert more power ( P ) = you will get a lower conversion ratio. So before we start adding more and more components to simply get nicer visuals on an osciloscope let's try to focus on the basics ? As i see this is a simple resonant circuit that stores input energy in the coil and capacitor and from time to time it dumps to a batery. This is all nice and logical, not sure why people think there is any gain in this. It's just a I to U convertor circuit.
ps: i know i'm a day 1 sceptic :(

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #426 on: March 29, 2011, 02:48:20 PM »
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Offline joefr

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #427 on: March 29, 2011, 10:43:29 PM »
Hi Conrad

You have nice setup

Thanks for circuit schematic and picture of your setup.

Joe

Offline joefr

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #428 on: March 29, 2011, 11:18:16 PM »
Hi Gyula

Can you please help me choose which optical switch to use:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Nr=AND%28avl%3auk%2csearchDiscon_uk%3aN%29&N=4294571106+4294909763&Ns=Maximum%20Rise%20Time&Nso=0#resultArrow
I was thinking the first model in the row ( Slotted IR optical switch,OPB460T11 )
Here is the datashet: http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/025c/0900766b8025c2fe.pdf

And can you please change this schematic to use optical switch instead of the hall sensor:

Joe



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #428 on: March 29, 2011, 11:18:16 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #429 on: March 29, 2011, 11:50:31 PM »
Hi Joe,

Ok,  tomorrow I will upload the modified schematic with the opto added.

The type OPB460-T11 seems already a good choice (it has an output rise and fall time of 50ns, maybe an overkill in this application for the present some hundred RPM, if you choose this type it will never ever be a limiting factor in speed, that is sure).
If you read the data sheet of the TCST2103,
http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0e30/0900766b80e30a58.pdf
 its turn on and turn off times are specified as 10us and 8us, respectively. This is about a thousand times slower than the above one but I believe it still good for here. Conrad surely found it good for his practical setups.
So if you choose the OPB type I will make the schematic with it tomorrow.

Gyula

Offline minoly

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #430 on: March 30, 2011, 05:59:22 AM »
Very Nice!
I like where this thread has been going since I last had a peek.
We finally figured out the simple method of using the SSG to short the coil
"http://tinyurl.com/SSGshort"
will have to give the Opto a try.
Thanks,
Patrick

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #430 on: March 30, 2011, 05:59:22 AM »
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Offline Thaelin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #431 on: March 30, 2011, 06:04:50 AM »
   Pdf of the transistors is here
   http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/B/P/X/4/BPX43-4.shtml

  N type  880 nm triggered.

thay

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #432 on: March 30, 2011, 06:11:54 AM »
Im glad you guys are seriously considering the optical idea.
What is great about it is, you will be able to have many on/off periods in a small area, where the magnets/reeds make that virtually impossible.
And the speed of the sensing should be fantastic as said in a previous post.
You could even print coded bars on transparent sticky sheets.

Good luck. =]

Mags

Offline Tudi

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #433 on: March 30, 2011, 11:20:56 AM »
I hate to be a spammer. But i would love to assemble such a device for experimenting. And i think i'm asking for a very small thing. : What is the input and output power ratio ?
It's just a simple Amper measurement besides the Voltage increase.

Is it just drawing more power from the batter at once stacking it up at the output ? Is this peak draw so fast that the multi meter cannot measure it (it does an avg over time)?
I was watching the osciloscope outputs ( much finer value sampling then multimeter) just makes me think that there is voltage spike that guys harvest and then there is a period of silence (not mentioning the BEMF ) to wait for the recharge from the battery of the coil. So basicly the multi meter is measuring the spikes at the output and probably just skipping the input spikes ? Just a wild guess. I'm simply trying to understand the magics behind of it. Such simple circuits tend to hold no magic. Even if the coil is harvesting ambient energy, you should feel some sort of radio signal loss, or maybe heat loss ( EMF are everywhere )..

Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #434 on: March 30, 2011, 03:44:10 PM »
I hate to be a spammer. But i would love to assemble such a device for experimenting. And i think i'm asking for a very small thing. : What is the input and output power ratio ?
It's just a simple Amper measurement besides the Voltage increase.

Is it just drawing more power from the batter at once stacking it up at the output ? Is this peak draw so fast that the multi meter cannot measure it (it does an avg over time)?
I was watching the osciloscope outputs ( much finer value sampling then multimeter) just makes me think that there is voltage spike that guys harvest and then there is a period of silence (not mentioning the BEMF ) to wait for the recharge from the battery of the coil. So basicly the multi meter is measuring the spikes at the output and probably just skipping the input spikes ? Just a wild guess. I'm simply trying to understand the magics behind of it. Such simple circuits tend to hold no magic. Even if the coil is harvesting ambient energy, you should feel some sort of radio signal loss, or maybe heat loss ( EMF are everywhere )..

Tudi,

These individuals on this thread are experimenting.  The concept is based on Ismael's electric car.  Go find that thread, read through it.  Then experiment.  No one hear will give you what you want.  No one here is even close to that stage.  So please either experiment and post some information, or simply watch.

Thank you and have a nice day,

Bruce

 

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