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Author Topic: Shorting coil gives back more power  (Read 355552 times)

Offline popolibero

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #270 on: March 11, 2011, 08:29:21 PM »
Btw, I have tried again to increase the shortings per peak, again playing with duty cycle as well. The circuit works well and clean, still, I'm positive that the result is that one spike charges more than multiple spikes. Also looking at the signal without output capacitor, One shorting creates one big spike plus ringings, while multiple shortings give more spikes but with less amplitude. The more shortings the smaller the amplitude gets.

Mario

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #270 on: March 11, 2011, 08:29:21 PM »

Offline giantkiller

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #271 on: March 11, 2011, 08:35:41 PM »
@Popolibero,
can you post a schematic of the shorting schematic?

Offline Feynman

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #272 on: March 11, 2011, 08:38:29 PM »
Quote
The iron core lowers the C.O.P. Better to have air or copper.
@GK

I agree 'air core' might be better for the devices being discussed, ie. these electromagnet style 'coil shorting' devices, but what about a Boyce TPU?  That uses a powdered iron core with somewhat intermediate permeability 'u' to mix precisely controlled pwm square waves , square waves of 60V potential and of <10% duty cycle (realistically like 1-2% duty cycle) with precise phase control. 

Like bolt says, a TPU -- whether it's a Boyce TPU or a SM TPU, both have COP of >1000.  So does Floyd Sweet VTA.   These 'coil shorting' devices have a COP 1 to 2 orders of magnitude lower (COP=2-3, COP=10, etc).    (Here is where I'd be curious to know the COP of the 5kW device of which bolt posted photographs).   In any case, I'd be careful to say they all have common mechanism of action.  Even the SM TPU and Boyce TPU might have a different mechanism of action.

I'm not convinced that it's the same mechanism of action between the TPU devices and these 'coil shorting' devices.   But that's just my personal opinion at the moment. 

The only thing all these devices have in common seems to be the modulation of magnetic flux.

Anyway I'm off to do inventory of my parts and organize them.  Good luck this weekend GK and anyone else on the bench.

P.S.
Regardless , we need to get an open-source ,easily-replicable COP>1 device (even if it's just COP=1.5).  That way it will spread virally and we can publish PDF instructions on how to replicate.  It will be especially useful if it's a self-runner without battery banks (capacitors instead) , and if the parts cost less than $100, and if it's entirely solid-state.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #272 on: March 11, 2011, 08:38:29 PM »
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Offline popolibero

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #273 on: March 11, 2011, 09:18:50 PM »
GK, I don't have the full schematic on paper and am at work anyway, but the shorting basis you can see here:

https://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/shorting-coils-circuits

On my rotor setup I used halls, now that I'm using solid state (if you go back a few pages I explained in detail what I'm doing) I use a 555 circuit both to drive the setup and short the generator coil since the impulse happens to be at the same time. I posted my basic 555 circuit a couple pages back, although others have posted other circuits as well. I use that circuit to drive both the drive and shorting fets.

Mario

Offline popolibero

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #274 on: March 11, 2011, 09:24:28 PM »
I agree that shorting might have a lower COP, but if you make the magnetic field you're shorting very strong with neos you'll get a hell of a bang I'd say.

Mario

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #274 on: March 11, 2011, 09:24:28 PM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #275 on: March 11, 2011, 09:46:50 PM »
The circuit of the scope shot of the shorting on the peaks hasn't shown up yet. It is zero crossing.
Anybody got an idea for one?
Thinking of using 555s myself.

Yeah GK, I posted mine on message #223

Ron

Offline giantkiller

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #276 on: March 11, 2011, 10:59:56 PM »
Yeah GK, I posted mine on message #223

Ron

I simulated that with 555s in www.falstad.com
Here is falstad.com model
It is dependant on 44hz. The 555 timing needs modification to accomodate input frequency.
do not include quotes
Quote
$ 1 5.0E-6 6.724437240923179 62 5.0 50
w -32 64 16 64 0
R -32 64 -32 32 0 0 40.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
r -192 192 -128 192 0 4700.0
w -80 176 -32 176 0
v -208 64 -304 64 0 1 44.0 12.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
d -304 144 -256 192 1 0.805904783
d -256 96 -304 144 1 0.805904783
d -256 96 -208 144 1 0.805904783
d -208 144 -256 192 1 0.805904783
w -208 64 -208 144 0
w -304 64 -304 144 0
w -256 96 -256 128 0
w -192 192 -256 192 0
g -256 128 -256 144 0
t -128 192 -80 192 0 1 -4.95481979958797 0.04518019757182915 100.0
g -128 256 -128 304 0
g -80 208 -80 304 0
r -80 176 -80 64 0 4700.0
w -80 64 -32 64 0
162 -32 112 -32 176 1 2.1024259 1.0 0.0 0.0
r -32 64 -32 112 0 100.0
p -128 192 -128 144 0
174 -128 192 -128 256 0 1000.0 0.35150000000000003 Peak bias
w -128 256 -112 256 0
w -112 256 -112 224 0
165 64 96 144 96 2 5.0
w 64 224 64 128 0
w 64 64 128 64 0
w 64 64 16 64 0
c 64 224 64 288 0 1.0E-5 2.8358623894302473
g 64 288 64 320 0
c 128 256 128 288 0 1.0E-5 3.3333333333264257
g 128 288 128 320 0
r 192 128 192 64 0 100.0
w 192 64 128 64 0
174 64 64 32 128 0 1000.0 0.5495000000000001 one shot time
w 64 128 32 96 0
165 336 96 352 96 2 0.0
w 336 192 336 224 0
w 192 64 336 64 0
w 336 64 400 64 0
r 336 64 336 128 0 500.0
r 336 128 336 192 0 500.0
c 336 224 336 288 0 1.0000000000000002E-6 4.31397408759221
g 336 288 336 320 0
c 400 256 400 288 0 1.0E-5 3.3333333333264257
g 400 288 400 320 0
w 400 64 464 64 0
r 464 64 464 128 0 10000.0
M 464 160 496 160 0 2.5
I -32 176 48 176 0 0.5
w 48 176 64 192 0
d 192 160 336 192 1 0.805904783
p 464 160 480 208 0
x 100 167 139 173 0 24 555
x 375 172 414 178 0 24 555
o 4 64 0 35 20.0 0.003125 0 -1
o 49 64 0 34 5.0 9.765625E-5 0 -1
o 21 64 0 34 1.25 9.765625E-5 0 -1
o 53 64 0 34 5.0 9.765625E-5 1 -1
do not include quotes
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 12:30:41 AM by giantkiller »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #276 on: March 11, 2011, 10:59:56 PM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #277 on: March 12, 2011, 03:08:42 AM »
I simulated that with 555s in www.falstad.com
Here is falstad.com model
It is dependant on 44hz. The 555 timing needs modification to accomodate input frequency.
do not include quotesdo not include quotes

LOL, afraid that is beyond me

Ron

Offline tagor

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #278 on: March 12, 2011, 06:30:13 PM »
what do think of this schematic ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #278 on: March 12, 2011, 06:30:13 PM »
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Offline Feynman

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #279 on: March 12, 2011, 06:47:09 PM »
GK, I don't have the full schematic on paper and am at work anyway, but the shorting basis you can see here:

https://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/shorting-coils-circuits

On my rotor setup I used halls, now that I'm using solid state (if you go back a few pages I explained in detail what I'm doing) I use a 555 circuit both to drive the setup and short the generator coil since the impulse happens to be at the same time. I posted my basic 555 circuit a couple pages back, although others have posted other circuits as well. I use that circuit to drive both the drive and shorting fets.

Mario

@popolibero

Thank you , this is EXACTLY what I was looking for.   The one thing that is missing is schematics for 'solid state' coil shorting circuit   , but this is a start.   Thanks.

Offline Feynman

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #280 on: March 12, 2011, 06:49:09 PM »
I agree that shorting might have a lower COP, but if you make the magnetic field you're shorting very strong with neos you'll get a hell of a bang I'd say.

Mario

Also coil shorting devices are much simpler to make and require much less specialized components.   Thus , more people , potentially , can replicate and experiment.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #280 on: March 12, 2011, 06:49:09 PM »
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Offline Feynman

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #281 on: March 12, 2011, 06:51:15 PM »
what do think of this schematic ?

This helps too -- thanks .   My one question now (forgive my complete ignorance on these circuits) is where does the input AC come from in 'solid-state' coil shorting devices? 

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #282 on: March 12, 2011, 07:05:11 PM »
@popolibero

Thank you , this is EXACTLY what I was looking for.   The one thing that is missing is schematics for 'solid state' coil shorting circuit   , but this is a start.   Thanks.

Hi Feynman,

The 'missing schematics' for solid state switching is not missing lol it is just there in the link popolibero linked to.

There are two schematics above the scope shot and the two left hand side arrows with the "To Coil" label goes exactly the the coil to be shorted.

And the two schematics under the scope shot includes an SW1 switch which symbolizes the solid state switch. 

So the solid state switch is the two MOSFETs as shown connected in the first two schematics above the scope shot, ok? 

To answer your last question just above: the input AC comes by induction into the coil(s).

Gyula

Offline popolibero

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #283 on: March 12, 2011, 07:24:58 PM »
Maybe there has been a misunderstanding. One thing is to short the coil in solid state, this is shown in the hall triggered two fet circuit (link).
The other thing is to induce AC into the coil to be shorted. This you can do with magnets on a rotor or solid state, which is what I explained in an earlier post. In order to get rid of the motor/moving magnets I replaced that with a coil that has a parallel cap tuned to be resonant at a certain frequency. This coil I drive with a 555 circuit + fet with very short pulses. At resonance the resulting wave in this power coil becomes a sine wave. This means the magnetic field does the same, it induces an alternating field into the generator coil (the same I used in the rotored version) sitting on top of the drive coil, so the result is the same as having a moving magnet.

What comes in handy in this setup is that since the DRIVE pulse happens at the peak of the resonant AC wave, I can use the same 555 signal to drive the shorting circuit of the generator coil.

Mario

Offline Feynman

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #284 on: March 12, 2011, 07:27:29 PM »
Haha okay , I thought this had moving parts since the magnet is shown in different positions in the lower set of diagrams  (thought it was a magnet on a rotor).  My mistake...

I'll pick up a hall effect and reed switch today... I'm surprised that a reed switch can be closed by the field from a small electromagnet but the bench does not lie...    this looks really really interesting, and much easier (and cheaper) than to play with than programming microcontroller interrupts for Boyce's stuff...

Thanks guys

@bolt ,all

That 160W overunity device you mentioned , the one created by magnacoaster, do you have any comments on details on how the schematic might be organized?  I am very interesting in trying to get coil shorting to work in closed-loop mode...

 

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