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Author Topic: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric  (Read 370389 times)

Offline Slovenia

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Transducer Update
« Reply #570 on: April 28, 2011, 12:52:27 PM »
Well, I found a transducer supplier in China who will sell you one 40 KHz ultrasonic cleaning transducer for $6.50 but the shipping is still high at $32.00, but I ordered one anyway.  They want to ship them out fast and that's the reason for the expensive postage.  Mine is FEDEX Air.  Anyway, it's a better shipping cost than Mary's.  Hers was $61 shipping for one or ten.  The website I used was: http://www.bjccwy.com

I found this company on Aliexpress.  Aliexpress was one of the sites recommended by Power To Be.

I'm finding that most of the transducer sites won't get back to me for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 01:13:47 PM by Slovenia »

Offline Slovenia

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Power To Be Query
« Reply #571 on: April 28, 2011, 12:58:09 PM »
Hi Power To Be,

I hope you are still hanging around.  You mentioned in one of your posts that the transducers needed to be attached in a certain way inside the cell but you didn't explain how.  Would you please elaborate on that.  Thanks!!

Best Regards,
Slovenia

Offline superman9976

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #572 on: April 30, 2011, 06:33:53 AM »
Hey Solvenia,

Sorry I have been busy this week with my cdi.  My brother and I figured out how to delay the firing of the ignition by intercepting the ecm signal for a few ms.  Since it wasn't running right because it was firing too soon.  Then we wanna change the injector pulse width by intercepting it and make it shorter by 1 - 2 ms to force lean.  I have some krupa plugs on the way now too.  I also am working on my mag heater changing a box fan into a heater.   I wanted to share this link with you it is very similar to what power to be has proposed and it put some new ideas in my head.  I think about this stuff everyday and work on it when I can. 
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=210

I'm glad you received your parts so you can start having some fun.    Did you notice power to be hasn't been online here since april 12th?  I wonder what he's up too?

I still can't figure out how to really attach zinc to a substrate.  I draw a blank on what material to use.
chris

Offline altrez

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #573 on: April 30, 2011, 01:00:44 PM »
Hey Solvenia,

Sorry I have been busy this week with my cdi.  My brother and I figured out how to delay the firing of the ignition by intercepting the ecm signal for a few ms.  Since it wasn't running right because it was firing too soon.  Then we wanna change the injector pulse width by intercepting it and make it shorter by 1 - 2 ms to force lean.  I have some krupa plugs on the way now too.  I also am working on my mag heater changing a box fan into a heater.   I wanted to share this link with you it is very similar to what power to be has proposed and it put some new ideas in my head.  I think about this stuff everyday and work on it when I can. 
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=210

I'm glad you received your parts so you can start having some fun.    Did you notice power to be hasn't been online here since april 12th?  I wonder what he's up too?

I still can't figure out how to really attach zinc to a substrate.  I draw a blank on what material to use.
chris

Chris,

I am interested in the Mag Heater can you please post some direct links to how its constructed. I have looked all over but cant seem to find any information.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Offline Slovenia

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Power To Be
« Reply #574 on: April 30, 2011, 02:37:51 PM »
Hi Chris,

Wow, Krupa plugs.  How do some of the rest of us get hooked up with your supplier?  Thanks.

Hopefully Power To Be is still in the wings waiting for us to show him some good results before he will respond.  I know he was very frustrated because everyone wasn't duplicating his stuff quickly and showing positive results.  He gave us much information but with many loose ends, so I hope he will be willing to share some more information with us soon.  My problem is that I'm just as interested in his higher self info as I am in this projects info, so my interests are split in the middle which is slowing me down because I have spent as much time as I could in both areas.  I figure if I figure out how to utilize that power he kept referring to that it would really help me with this project.  Anyway, I've found a lot of dead ends with respect to the higher self thing and so that's caused some frustration for me. 

With regard to my parts, they have all arrived for the JT now and also my function generator has arrived.  My wiring setup is a real mess, so I'm going to have to redo it on some hardboard to tidy it up.

Thanks for sharing your results.

It looks like most of the guys who were interested in this project have either dropped out or decided to go their own way.

Best Regards,
Slovenia

Hey Solvenia,

Sorry I have been busy this week with my cdi.  My brother and I figured out how to delay the firing of the ignition by intercepting the ecm signal for a few ms.  Since it wasn't running right because it was firing too soon.  Then we wanna change the injector pulse width by intercepting it and make it shorter by 1 - 2 ms to force lean.  I have some krupa plugs on the way now too.  I also am working on my mag heater changing a box fan into a heater.   I wanted to share this link with you it is very similar to what power to be has proposed and it put some new ideas in my head.  I think about this stuff everyday and work on it when I can. 
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=210

I'm glad you received your parts so you can start having some fun.    Did you notice power to be hasn't been online here since april 12th?  I wonder what he's up too?

I still can't figure out how to really attach zinc to a substrate.  I draw a blank on what material to use.
chris

Offline Slovenia

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Chinese Co Engineer
« Reply #575 on: April 30, 2011, 02:44:43 PM »
The Chinese company I purchased my transducer from had me contact their engineer and he said he could help us with regard to any transducer question.  So, he might be able to help us get the exact transducer we need for this project.  This company does not manufacture a 45 KHz transducer but they make about every other kind.  I might be able to convince him to make us the exact frequency range we need but for starters, he might make us some 45 KHz.  I'll check into that.  He's a really nice guy and very interested in this project.

Offline Blue_serge_00

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #576 on: April 30, 2011, 05:24:36 PM »
Hello to everyone!

I have been following this thread and the one on Energetic Forum for awhile now and I wanted to share my progress with everyone.

Crystals:

I created my crystals using the process described by "Power to be".

I used household cleaning ammonium (1.5L) bought from Wal-Mart. There was no indication as to what percentage of ammonium was inside the solution so I processed it until I got a very strong solution. I basically just froze the household ammonium in the freezer to 0 degrees then kept it in the freezer for another hour so the water freezes but not the ammonium. Then I just poured out the frozen solution through a coffee filter to eliminate the ice from the solution. I repeated this process about 4 times to get a strong concentration of ammonium. Unfortunately I have no clue as to the percentage, but I can tell you this. If you get your eyes or nose anywhere close to the solution it will burn and you will smell ammonium for the next couple of hours. Not a pleasant smell, so I caution everyone working with ammonium.

I mixed about 30 grams of Zinc Oxide nano power bought from http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-104/Zinc-Oxide-Powder-1/Detail with 300ml of ammonium. I used a magnetic stirrer for about 30mins to mix the powder properly then capped the solution. Once mixed I placed the solution in the freezer at the coldest my fridge would go. Took a temperature reading around 2 hours later and it was 0 degrees. I left it in the freezer for another hour before doing the reflux.

Once the solution was taken out of the freezer I placed it in a water bath at room temperature for about 15 minutes. Then I placed the water bath and the solution on top of a hot plate and brought the temperature inside the solution to 60 degrees (temperature reading was taken with an infrared meter). Once it reached 60 degrees I started the timer for 2 hours with the reflux tube setup. I also made a second batch and did not use a reflux tube. Instead, I caped the opening of the flask with a surgical glove and just watched the expansion of the glove as an indication of pressure inside. I also placed a cold wet paper towel over the glove to reduce the pressure inside the flask. You need to have some pressure inside the container while you are cooking it for 2 hours at 60 degrees because I believe the pressure it the key to combining ammonium and zinc oxide together. I studied a bit of Walter Russell's work and according to his chemical chart there needs to be pressure to combine these two elements (I don't know if this is correct but it makes sense to me).

Once I finished cooking for 2 hours I let the solution rest for about 2 hours. The Zinc will settle to the bottom at which point I poured out the clear solution into another flask for later use. I then poured about the Zinc solution into couple of Petri dished and left them by my window to dry out. It took about 2 days for the Zinc to dry out and form crystals. They still look like Zinc Oxide power but they feel coarse to the touch unlike the Zinc nano powder.

Atomizing Chamber:

I constructed my water tank with a 2 inch diameter PVC tube with a height of 5 inches. I purchased my transducer from http://www.mainlandmart.com/foggers.html and got their M001 model which had a 20mm disc. The transducer was placed at the bottom of the tube and the tube was capped off on the top end. I drilled 2 holes on the top end cap. One was for the output to the air intake of engine and the second one was for the wire leading out from the transducer. The transducer by the way was operating at 1.7Mhz @ 24V (factory default). I also just dropped the crystals into the water directly. I did not have any suitable material to attach the crystals to.

I started with a leaf blower engine which was a 2 stroke engine with 1 spark plug. I started the engine first with gas then tried to connect the output tube from the atomizing chamber to the air intake. At first the engine shut off as soon as I connected the tube. I realized there wasn't enough air to the engine, so I drilled another whole on the end cap of the PVC tube so a vacuum is created and more air can flow into the engine from the atomizing chamber. I started the engine again and connected the tube from the atomizing chamber to the air intake and the engine did not stop. I wanted to see if the RPM would increase at idle when I connected the tube from the atomizing chamber. It did not. The engine sounded like it was struggling as though it wanted to increase in RMP but kept dropping back down to idle speed. I don't have a RMP meter so I had to use my ear instead. I can also visually see atomized water being sucked into the engine through the tube. I stopped the test at this point because I realized some problems with my design for the atomizing chamber.

Here is my conclusion:

The atomizing chamber needs to have more surface area so enough gas can be produced for the specific engine we need to work with. The consumption rate must much the engine. My 2 inch diameter PVC tube was just not cutting it.

Also the transducers can only operate with a water level about 2 inches from its surface. Anything more and the water will not be atomized. Which lead me to the conclusion I need a rectangular shaped chamber. The water level has to be about 2 inches above the transducer and I also need another 1 inch of spacing above the water level so there is room for the atomized water to occupy. I had decided for my next chamber I will use a 12 inch by 6 inch rectangular shape with a height of 4 inches. 1 inch for the transducer, 2 inches for the water and 1 inch of spacing for the atomized water.

I also think the crystals are not resonating properly at 1.7Mhz. I will create a new circuit for the transducer so I can bring the frequency down to about 44KHz to 60KHz and up the voltage from 24V to 36V. For the next chamber I will also use 3 transducers wired in parallel at 36V with a lower frequency. I have a function generation as well which I will use to test different frequencies for the highest HHO production rate. I will post that data once I done the tests. 

Also the water becomes somewhat thick when the crystals are dropped directly into it. The transducer was having problems atomizing the water. So I would suggest the crystals should be attached to something and placed about ½ inch over the transducer. I was thinking of electroplating a metal plate but I don’t have any experience in this area. I would appreciate help if anyone knows how to electroplate these crystals to a metal plate properly. Or if someone has a better idea about how these crystals should be attached and what materials I should use, I’m all ears.

By the way there was some Hydrogen production from the chamber I built. I tested this by running the output tube into a beer can held upside down then igniting inside of the beer can. There was a very small burst of flame. This also indicates there was not enough hydrogen production from my chamber and this could be due to many reasons. Hopefully my next chamber will produce some better results.

Questions for “Power to Be”

If “Power to be” is still around I could use some input as to why there was not enough hydrogen produced from my build and if I heading in the right direction.
1.   Should I use bigger transducers discs?
2.   Is the problem due to surface area of the atomized water?
3.   Can you suggest a better method for the crystal placement?
4.   I also created a dome shaped receiver from brass metal which I was going to attach the crystals to and place the receiver just above the transducer. This way the wave would bounce off the receiver dome and be directed back down again to the floor of the atomizing chamber then back up again to the surface of the water. Would this increase HHO production?

On a final note,

Guys don’t give up on this method of hydrogen production because the concept does work but it still needs more refining before we get higher production rates. Fortunately I have the resources financially and time wise to work on this project. So any suggestions will also be appreciated from everyone. I will keep you guys posted on my progress and will post some pictures later.

Thank you and good luck to everyone.

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #577 on: April 30, 2011, 08:47:25 PM »
Thanks Blue_serge_00 for posting your results in such a well documented manner.  A couple of thoughts I'll mention.  I think we may do better with ignition of both H and water fog if we are using a much hotter spark than normal.  A Plasma spark would be ideal for this as there is a lot of evidence it directly ignites the water which is in a fog or ultrasonic mist state. 
   I do think we definitely need a fair sized container as you concluded and I think some larger or additional ultrasonic units will be needed for most any size engine.

 I have mentioned using silicone as a way to attach crystals to a container but I don't know if it will be a good way or not.  I know it will work to attach them and be waterproof but I'm not sure if it is a good idea from the resonance standpoint.  I would simply get a $4 (more or less) 10 ounce caulking gun size tube of silicone and smear it all over a surface in your container and then sprinkle the Zinc oxide crystals onto it.  You have about 10 minutes working time at least after putting on the silicone to sprinkle on your Zinc oxide crystals although the sooner you can do it the better I believe.  I have not tried this so I'm just taking a guess on this but I have used 100% silicone for many projects and find it easy and cheap to work with. 

Offline Blue_serge_00

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #578 on: April 30, 2011, 09:23:11 PM »
Thank for the feedback. I will try silcon next and see if that works. The spark plug was the other problem as well. I will look into a plasma spark plug. Thanks again for the idea.

Offline Slovenia

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #579 on: May 01, 2011, 12:37:10 PM »
Hi Blue_serge,

Thanks for sharing with us.  I had computer problems yesterday or I would have responded then.  Anyway, Power To Be left a lot of details in his posts all over the place that talk to a lot of some of the questions you are asking.  Do you have a copy of my compilation on all of Power To Be's posts?  It's a lot of reading at 168 pages but it tells us a lot of stuff.  That is all his information from about five separate threads on Energetic Forum and this thread on OU.  Anyway, I would like to help you if I may.  You have the resources and are willing to help us all and since I put together all the archived files on Power To Be, I remember a lot of what he posted.  Let me know if I can help you with any clarification.  You can just pm me if you like.  Here is a link to where you can download Power To Be's compilation of posts.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52177573/Compilation-of-Power1-Posts

Thanks again for sharing with us.

Best Regards,
Slovenia

Thank for the feedback. I will try silcon next and see if that works. The spark plug was the other problem as well. I will look into a plasma spark plug. Thanks again for the idea.

Offline superman9976

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #580 on: May 01, 2011, 08:30:17 PM »
Solvenia and Altrez,
To make a krupa plug you need a tig welder so you can weld a blob of inconel on the tip of the electrode.  I bought NGK   7317 plugs they are a resistorless racing plug.  You need some dremel sanders to help shape the blob.  I have a friend with the tig welder so he's gonna do that part then I'll chuck them in a drill and turn them until they have a nice dome shape to them.  I will be careful not to breathe the filings cause I guess they are pretty toxic.   

Altrez if you go to magtransauto.com and look under the albertson link on the left side and scroll down you'll see an example of what I'm talking about.  I tried the box fan motor but it is a tad too weak and doesn't spin fast enough.  Its rated at 2.4 amps and about 1800 rpm.  So far I found about 3000 rpm and a motor that draws 3.5 amps or higher works the best. Drill press motor seems to have enough torque and speed with pulleys to make lots of heat.  It also doesn't draw too much current.  If send me your email I could send you some pics of what I got.  Don't want to get off topic too much here.  Since your into electrical engineering did you have a look at the article I posted?  I figure I'll learn a lot from trying it out.  All this stuff seems tied together high voltage potential low current and frequencies.  There isn't any one frequency but many that work.  It varies with water levels and capacitence in the cell.  Maybe your the one who could design the microprocessor to maintain the system?

Offline altrez

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #581 on: May 02, 2011, 04:54:59 PM »
Solvenia and Altrez,
To make a krupa plug you need a tig welder so you can weld a blob of inconel on the tip of the electrode.  I bought NGK   7317 plugs they are a resistorless racing plug.  You need some dremel sanders to help shape the blob.  I have a friend with the tig welder so he's gonna do that part then I'll chuck them in a drill and turn them until they have a nice dome shape to them.  I will be careful not to breathe the filings cause I guess they are pretty toxic.   

Altrez if you go to magtransauto.com and look under the albertson link on the left side and scroll down you'll see an example of what I'm talking about.  I tried the box fan motor but it is a tad too weak and doesn't spin fast enough.  Its rated at 2.4 amps and about 1800 rpm.  So far I found about 3000 rpm and a motor that draws 3.5 amps or higher works the best. Drill press motor seems to have enough torque and speed with pulleys to make lots of heat.  It also doesn't draw too much current.  If send me your email I could send you some pics of what I got.  Don't want to get off topic too much here.  Since your into electrical engineering did you have a look at the article I posted?  I figure I'll learn a lot from trying it out.  All this stuff seems tied together high voltage potential low current and frequencies.  There isn't any one frequency but many that work.  It varies with water levels and capacitence in the cell.  Maybe your the one who could design the microprocessor to maintain the system?

I could defiantly program the microprocessor. I will send you my email. I never could get the rar to work. I have winrar an don't have any issues with any other files. Can you post just the files?

-Altrez

Offline Slovenia

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40 KHz Transducer Arrived from China
« Reply #582 on: May 02, 2011, 04:55:41 PM »
Well, today my 40 KHz transducer arrived from China.  It's quite a spectacular assembly for $6.50.  It's very well machined and manufactured.  I'll put some pics up later.

Power To Be, I hope you are still around.  You said in one of your posts that the transducers had to be attached in the cells in a particular way, and that you would share how to do that.  Well, I am ready to attach mine and have no idea what I'm doing with that aspect.  Thanks for any light you are willing to share on this.  I hope you are very well!!  You opened my eyes to many things.  I have a mentor now who is a genius trying to share with me about the consciousness aspects you shared.  Thanks so much for that info.!!


Offline fishman

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Re: Power To Be Query
« Reply #583 on: May 02, 2011, 05:07:14 PM »
Hi Power To Be,

I hope you are still hanging around.  You mentioned in one of your posts that the transducers needed to be attached in a certain way inside the cell but you didn't explain how.  Would you please elaborate on that.  Thanks!!

Best Regards,
Slovenia
FWIW
I'm not sure if this is what you are refereeing to. I think he did refer to a 15 degree angle.
It seems that most foggers have a little dimple on the bottom that  raises one side to get that 15 degree mark.

Offline Slovenia

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Re: Power To Be Query
« Reply #584 on: May 02, 2011, 05:53:41 PM »
Hi Fishman,

What I have is the real deal, transducer, and not the fogger.  I have a fogger too, but saw it wasn't going to do what I wanted, so went ahead and purchased a transducer from China.  I'll post a pic of my transducer assembly later today.  Thanks for sharing!

Best Regards,
Slovenia



FWIW
I'm not sure if this is what you are refereeing to. I think he did refer to a 15 degree angle.
It seems that most foggers have a little dimple on the bottom that  raises one side to get that 15 degree mark.