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Author Topic: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric  (Read 382941 times)

Offline petar113507

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Transducer update
« Reply #150 on: March 16, 2011, 08:11:01 PM »
Rad HHO, as you slowed down the frequency, the voltage went up?  I would think that you would have hit a standstill (a point which thereafter, the pizeo-electric would not respond).  I think that may be limited by your input voltage.

My thought here, is that the two are co-related.  Except with increasing the frequency, you would need more voltage to compensate.  I do not know why, but this is just the route that I would normally investigate with the wave-generators.  (Edit:  This is what e2matrix said.  :)  Thanks for the info!  ;D )

I have found some circut-boards.  China markets are pretty diverse, and can find a lot of stuff.  You just gotta look carefully:
http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/hainetec1/product-detailFMOQVpBKMHkI/China-Ultrasonic-Generator-Ultrasonic-PCB-.html

Thoughts there? ???

On the off chance that anyone can look -- why not just look into a high frequencey ultrasonic transducer?
I am finding some transducers which are of novel cost (I'd assume shipping is the kicker):
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/352922184/10w_50Khz_Ultrasonic_transducer.html

If the pizeo's do not work  (or if we cannot easily adapt the input voltage to match the frequency), then I would imagine that these kind of transducers may fit the bill.

My next questions: Do we know if we are trying to hit 43 KHZ exactly, or just above the 43 KHZ range?
Next, why are we looking for the dis-association frequencey?  How do the crystals just "help" the dis-association (does it work better at certain frequencies, or is it just the electrical oscilation of the crystal that rips water molecules apart?)

Is it not the electric force that we are breaking, through the pizeoelectric oscilations at a set frequency?  Or does this somehow infer that through sound that we can manipulate the electric nature of matter?  I would imagine "constructive intereference" to be coupling together, amplifying itself at at certain resonant frequencies to produce electric effects? 
If this is the case, this would sound like a base, in the work that keeley was associated with.

These questions are posed to everyone -- they are questions which I would normally ask myself.  In this case, I have not yet found the answers to them, so instead of reporting back with the answer, I am merely asking the question.

I hope it sparks someone else to discuss,
==Romo

Offline RAD-HHO

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #151 on: March 16, 2011, 09:36:12 PM »
RAD-HHO,  Thanks for your info and tests on this.  Very interesting results and not at all what I expected.  This is considerably different than what I thought based on the circuit I built many years ago. 

I think it would be great if we could get some input now from Power to Be on how to get the frequency up to the target 43-45 Khz.  If this is as different as it seems then maybe simply increasing the voltage may be a way to increase the frequency but I wouldn't want anyone to risk ruining their setup based on that assumption.  I've got a function generator that will do sawtooth so I'll try to get time to test that. 

  Also if the piezo is putting out 1.73 Mhz that is way above the 43 Khz.  How does this result in producing the apparent 30 Khz range we were told they run in?  I'm lost now...     I'm curious how you were able to read the frequency with the piezo in the circuit?  I think the electrical frequency across the piezo is not the actual frequency it vibrates at since 1.73 Mhz is way above ultrasonic frequency.  I'm guessing here but it sounds like we may need to raise that frequency to get a higher vibration output at the disk.

If you look at the last photo http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10388.0;attach=51510;image, you can see I used jumper wires with alligator clips and a small spring to connect the piezo disc.

Offline petar113507

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #152 on: March 16, 2011, 09:57:40 PM »
So, the pizeo-ceramic discs:

http://www.annon.com.cn/product/PZT-atomizing.htm

The driving circut board:
http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/hainetec1/product-detailFMOQVpBKMHkI/China-Ultrasonic-Generator-Ultrasonic-PCB-.html

I would only like a clear "that should work" before I buy the units.  The pond foggers are nice trinkets, but I don't have the expertise to modify them myself.
I have since, been looking for high frequency transducers, or variable frequency humidifiers.

Written a few emails to a few companies, will wait for replies to point me towards the right product, which should 'fit the bill' for this project.

Cheers,
==Romo

Offline RAD-HHO

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #153 on: March 16, 2011, 10:12:58 PM »
So, the pizeo-ceramic discs:

http://www.annon.com.cn/product/PZT-atomizing.htm

The driving circut board:
http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/hainetec1/product-detailFMOQVpBKMHkI/China-Ultrasonic-Generator-Ultrasonic-PCB-.html

I would only like a clear "that should work" before I buy the units.  The pond foggers are nice trinkets, but I don't have the expertise to modify them myself.
I have since, been looking for high frequency transducers, or variable frequency humidifiers.

Written a few emails to a few companies, will wait for replies to point me towards the right product, which should 'fit the bill' for this project.

Cheers,
==Romo

Here is where I'm confused.  If you will notice all of the atomizer piezos are in the range 1.7 to 2.4 Mhz. The piezos used for cleaning are in the 43 khz range.  Can we drive the 1.7 Mhz piezo with the 43 Khz driver?  That is the question.  I'm not so sure.   :-\


Offline RAD-HHO

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #154 on: March 16, 2011, 10:15:36 PM »
More testing, or more input from someone who knows is needed......

Offline petar113507

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #155 on: March 16, 2011, 11:22:50 PM »
Here is where I'm confused.  If you will notice all of the atomizer piezos are in the range 1.7 to 2.4 Mhz. The piezos used for cleaning are in the 43 khz range.  Can we drive the 1.7 Mhz piezo with the 43 Khz driver?  That is the question.  I'm not so sure.   :-\

I'm calling the manufacturer for a few ultrasonic humidifiers. 

I'll post what I find out from them.  From what it sounds like so far -- You have to compensate at a higher input voltage, of offset the "inefficiencies" that ocurr at higher frequencies of the vibrating transducer.

I think it may be easiest (for the primary working model at least) to have an oscilator/humidifier that runs between 40-50 KHZ.

I asked about the frequencies, because if we are just using the crystals in HHO production, we can use a jewlery cleaner for the extra HHO liberation.  Thereafter -- use the pond fogger, and the "ionizer" to pump the air + hho into the intake manifold of the engine.

(These are my plans)
I am not trying for a selfrunner -- just a proof-of-concept model, that you can run an engine on sheerly HHO, and water.  Afterwards, I have generated sufficent interest in a working model, that I can investigate soley using the cheaper pond foggers, and the ionizers to produce the nescessary HHO to make it a selfrunner.  This might have the potential cut out the pizeo-electric crystals entirely -- I do not yet know.  Tests, and funds are further required for that.

I am simply trying to get SOMETHING to produce the HHO nescessary to make a primary model.  So far, I can either modify the pond fogger (might not work, I have not found solid information -- after to days searching, it is a little frustrating.  I don't know if I'm looking for the correct keywords or information about the foggers.)

Any ideas?
==Romo

Edit:
Open mouth = inserted foot
(Look in Comments section for further keyword searching: http://www.instructables.com/community/Pond-Misters/ )

Offline Slovenia

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Pond Foggers
« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2011, 02:26:11 AM »
Hi Romo,

You are doing a terrific job.  You have a lot of well focused energy and a great mind.  Thanks so much for sharing with all of us.

In several posts Powerme said we had all the information we needed to go forward with this project, so I've been going back and doing a lot of reading to see if there was something he shared earlier that I might have missed.  Well today, I saw that in one post he had ordered for himself 10 piezo ceramic at $3.00 each delivered.  I didn't find anything about the electronics he used in conjunction with the devices though.  I did see a post on Aaron's Gray Plug, where Powerme said he never used circuits as such.  So, I'm not exactly sure what he was doing.  I also saw in a more recent post where he said there were professional / industrial models of the piezo transducers available that  were fully tunable to the necessary specs.  In an even later post though, Powerme tells us to take care and not make it to complicated.  He's got a lot of clues out there but nothing has really clicked for me yet.  He also said in one post that it would be best for us all to got out and do our own research now instead of working with others.  Well, I'm glad we're working on this project as a team, because I'm not connected with my higher self yet and I need the help of others as we try to tie in all the loose ends here.

Thanks Powerme for all you have shared.  This is for sure a very interesting enlightening project.

Best Regards,
Slovenia


Any ideas?
==Romo


Offline superman9976

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #157 on: March 17, 2011, 04:34:43 AM »
Hello everyone

Thanks for all your efforts!  I love all the enthusiasm.  I was thinking the other night and did you think the reason there are two piezos in the water tank for running a 2.0L  motor is because they are two separate frequencies?  Like say what Mike is doing like one at say 45khz and one at 270khz?  Spacing of 6 times apart to fracture the water.  So then the crystals are adhered to some sort of sheets and hung into the tank?  This is going to magnify the effect?  The increase in voltage from 24 to 36 helps the piezo produce more(magnify the effect through the many more now oscillating crystals).

Chris

Offline Slovenia

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Mega Upload Book Package Query
« Reply #158 on: March 17, 2011, 11:11:58 AM »
Hi Romo,

I'm unable to download your book package from Megaupload.  Thanks!!

Best Regards,
Slovenia


The books contained in "book package"
(Lemme know if the link goes down)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=533MBGYE

Thank you for all your help so far,
==Romo

Offline Slovenia

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Sharp Electrical Guys
« Reply #159 on: March 17, 2011, 11:16:30 AM »
Hi Romo,

There are two really sharp electrical guys on Energetic who may be willing to help us briefly on the tuning of the China Piezo.  They have not been involved in this project as far as I know and are quite busy on other projects, but I have worked with them before and know them to be very good with electrical applications and such.  I think they are both inventors.  Their names on Energetic are Dragon & John_G.  Anyway, I will contact them ans see if I can spark any interest or help from them.

Best Regards,
Slovenia

Offline Slovenia

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Piezo Site (In USA)
« Reply #160 on: March 17, 2011, 01:46:47 PM »
John_G sent this site to me.  He was trying to do something else with the piezos and was driving his with a signal generator.  Anyway, he's very busy and doesn't have time to help right now.  Here's the site he recommended that might have information for us.

http://www.americanpiezo.com/knowledge-center/piezo-theory/applications.html

Offline RAD-HHO

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Re: Piezo frequency
« Reply #161 on: March 17, 2011, 02:44:12 PM »
Hey guys,
I finally got a chance to hook a scope to my piezo.  It's not as simple as it seems.  The piezo disc is part of the circuit.  The oscillator circuit looks to be sending the piezo disc a sawtooth wave @ 120 Hz.
When you hook the piezo disc to the circuit, it turns into a perfect sine wave @ 1.73 Mhz.  This is the frequency the manufacturer said it should be.  This might be a little tricky. :-\

More  to do....

Rick

Ignore this post!

I did not have the water sensor bypassed!  :-[

SORRY!

I am not able to modify it though!

I will post new results soon.......

Offline RAD-HHO

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Piezoelectric Frequency Test 2
« Reply #162 on: March 17, 2011, 05:59:01 PM »
I am soooooo sorry!  :-[

I knew something wasn't right about the voltage being so low.

For some reason when the fogger is plugged in, but the water sensor is not sensing water, there is a saw tooth wave at the output @ about a half a volt.

When I activated the water sensor, the readings changed a little.
The saw tooth changed to a perfect sine wave, but still @ 120 Hz. The voltage is more what I expected @ 31 volts.

When I connected the piezo disc, with the water sensor made, the 120 Hz has 1.7 Mhz modulated on top of it. The voltage went up to 120 volts.

As of yet I don't have a function generator powerful enough to drive the piezo disc at 43 Khz. I have some pwm circuits I will have to dig out and try.

Rick

Offline The Power To Be

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #163 on: March 18, 2011, 04:11:05 AM »
Guys, you are making this harder than it is. I had asked that you look at the Pierce oscillator circuit, the transducer is driven only by crystal transistor with capacitor. Oscillation can be altered by voltage, crystal angles or temperature. Wave frequency in the water needs to be 43khz +. If you keep increasing frequency, you will end up with abundant HHO from piezo only.

The Zno crystals amplifies the effect. What bonds H2+0, it has a property that you are controlling here. You need to be adhere ZnO to a permanent structure, what crystal geometry best amplifies wave frequency?. they are the same one used in electronics.

Nebulizer circuit, same as humidifier. http://www.tdk.co.jp/tefe02/ef441_nb.pdf

Look at the Sol-tec video, there's a comment on a patent application  there from Japan, research it. There are many ways to dissociate water into HHO with little energy expense.

You do not have much time, TIME is a luxury which you do not have. Earth is Changing!.



Offline petar113507

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IT WORKS!!
« Reply #164 on: March 18, 2011, 06:26:34 AM »
Guys! 
I have Great news!
The last batch of crystals did the trick.  I let them sit for longer than I usually would, and I thought that I was allowing it to grow longer crystals.  I didn't know if it worked or not until I had it dried.  It stopped raining today, and my crystals finally dried out.  Some of them that were stuck to the masonry jar.

So I scratched some of the crystals off the masonry jar.  Put it into a ziplock baggie.  Sucked out all the air I could.

http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/Romo_Land/SaltWater/0317012142.jpg

Put it in water, above the pizeoelectric.  The waves were heavily dampened by the ziplock bag, but after a few minutes, I could see a few air bubbles in there that were not present before.

Took a bigger ziplock bag, and more of that batch of crystals.  Still little bubbles seemed to add up over time.  Because the crystals were not "stuck" to any surface, they were constantly swooshing around the bag.  I could not easily discern, which were air bubbles,and which were little zinc oxide bits floating around.

So, I stuck the transducer inside the masonry jar, and left it on its side.  No mist was produced, but I hammered the insides of that jar with the pond fogger frequency.  It appeared to still be producing minute ammounts of air, out of the water.  Little bubbles rose to the surface.

The pictures are bad quality -- but you might be able to see them.  They liked to bubble up around the power chord.

http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/Romo_Land/SaltWater/0317012148.jpg

So, what have I concluded?

They DO work.  The crystals ARE pizeo-electric, and they produce HHO, in minute quantities.

So, what is the next step? 

We need to be making the crystals work better.

=================================

Powerme just mentioned a structure which amplified wave frequency.  I suspect a common household bowl, or "half basketball" shape would do the trick, if the ZnO were bound in the center somehow -- where the wave would be most compressed into the crystals.

Making the ultrasonic transducer run faster -- past 43 KHZ, also suposed to increase HHO production.  Peirce oscilator circut for the frequency mod. (Sorry, I missed that.  :( )

Making my own ZnO from zamak may be useful. (For the Al, and Mg. in small quantities in it)

The Ionizer to produce HHO, Post-mist-fogger in setup.

======================

I will be posting my further progress this week, in how I will be fine-tuning the system.
For now, the proof-of-concept -- IT WORKS.  :)

Happy thursday to a close,
I hope we make it in enough time.


On an off-tangent note -- Powerme, I do not quite know what I am preparing for. 
I only know that I am bracing against something to come.
Is there any way that I can know what I need to be prepared with?  Or how I need to be prepared?  If not from you, where may I learn it?  How long do we have?  It is driving me nuts to see everything slipping up a little bit, and not know how long I have.

Thank you for your time -- I am trying. 
So far, it seems to be working.  :)

==Romo