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Author Topic: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric  (Read 383147 times)

Offline petar113507

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2011, 08:19:17 PM »
Romo,
Have you seen the video Power to be posted the link for a while back?  I almost missed it. His transducer is out of a humidifier and it operates at 48 Khz.  It has the driver circuit too.  Easy access for mods.  I may have to go to walmart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwWj-gcYPTg&feature=related

Great video. 

Thanks again Power to be.

Thanks for the link!  I totally missed that.

From the looks of things, as I am taking apart one of the two transducers I have -- They look like they're not going to give up their little circutboard easily.  This leads me to the conclusion, we will effectively have to build our own circutboard, or find one.

Circutry, gentlemen, is not my area of expertise. 
Is there any way we can have circutboards made through an onlinecompany, and then distributed through this group?  I might know a few of them that wouldn't be too expensive. 
Like I said though -- It is not my area of expertise.  I do not think I have the technical-know-how to build one of those things from scratch.  I'm currently looking up the how-to's -- but I think there must be a faster way.

So, what I am proposing, is to make a joint effort to create the circutboard/oscilator circut, and then we would purchase them, distribute them -- and effectively have the same working oscillator on the transducer in the end.

Please contact me via PM, or at askromo@gmail.com
I am looking to get this done as soon as possible (within a few days).
If you're on the ball for this project, I hope to hear from you.

On a side note -- has anyone given much consideration as to where to bind the crystals?

I was thinking of putting them on the inside of a copper-pipe and laying a very thin layer of expoxy or ceramic therein. (pipe as per-that last video)

I could then put the spark gap outside the pipe, and into a secondary mist chamber.  The primary "mister" would be governed by the "influencer" to produce more HHO.  The secondary chamber would be towards adding more water vapor, so that the mixture does not become too HHO rich.

Then, on to the inlet/intake manifold.

The valve on the side of the copper pipe would be attached to a refill-sensor (for a later build version), and added water when need be.

Like this,



==Romo

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #136 on: March 14, 2011, 11:11:53 PM »
petar113507,  Is the item in your hand in the last picture the inside bottom (or top) of the ultrasonic fogger?  If so it's no surprise that it appears to be encased in silicone or some other potting material since the unit has to be underwater.  If it's silicone rubber like it may be possible to peel away the silicone to get at the circuit but if it's a harder material it's probably going to difficult to avoid damaging the circuit.  I think it would be fairly easy to build a circuit but I would mostly be concerned about how well it would work with the existing disk if the frequency is much higher that the circuit feeding it now. 
The circuit below would be simple enough and is variable by VR1 from 40 to 50 Khz which is right in our target range.  Circuit description below from :http://www.electronic-circuits-diagrams.com/audioimages/audiockt10.shtml


"Circuit of a new type of remote control switch is described here. This circuit functions with inaudible (ultrasonic) sound. Sound of frequency up to 20 kHz is audible to human beings. The sound of frequency above 20 kHz is called ultrasonic sound. The circuit described generates (transmits) ultrasonic sound of frequency between 40 and 50 kHz. As with any other remote control system this cirucit too comprises a mini transmitter and a receiver circuit. Transmitter generates ultrasonic sound and the receiver senses ultrasonic sound from the transmitter and switches on a relay. The ultrasonic transmitter uses a 555 based astable multivibrator. It oscillates at a frequency of 40-50 kHz. An ultrasonic transmitter transducer is used here to transmit ultrasonic sound very effectively. The transmitter is powered from a 9-volt PP3 single cell. The ultrasonic receiver circuit uses an ultrasonic receiver transducer to sense ultrasonic signals. It also uses a two-stage amplifier, a rectifier stage, and an operational amplifier in inverting mode. Output of op-amp is connected to a relay through a complimentary relay driver stage. A 9-volt battery eliminator can be used for receiver circuit, if required. When switch S1 of transmitter is pressed, it generates ultrasonic sound. The sound is received by ultrasonic receiver transducer. It converts it to electrical variations of the same frequency. These signals are amplified by transistors T3 and T4. The amplified signals are then rectified and filtered. The filtered DC voltage is given to inverting pin of op-amp IC2. The non- inverting pin of IC2 is connected to a variable DC voltage via preset VR2 which determines the threshold value of ultrasonic signal received by receiver for operation of relay RL1. The inverted output of IC2 is used to bias transistor T5. When transistor T5 conducts, it supplies base bias to transistor T6. When transistor T6 conducts, it actuates the relay. The relay can be used to control any electrical or electronic equipment. Important hints:
1. Frequency of ultrasonic sound generated can be varied from 40 to 50 kHz range by adjusting VR1. Adjust it for maximum performance.
2. Ultrasonic sounds are highly directional. So when you are operating the switch the ultrasonic transmitter transducer of transmitter should be placed towards ultrasonic receiver transducer of receiver circuit for proper functioning.
3. Use a 9-volt PP3 battery for transmitter. The receiver can be powered from a battery eliminator and is always kept in switched on position.
4. For latch facility use a DPDT relay if you want to switch on and switch off the load. A flip-flop can be inserted between IC2 and relay. If you want only an �ON-time delay� use a 555 only at output of IC2. The relay will be energised for the required period determined by the timing components of 555 monostable multivibrator.
5. Ultrasonic waves are emitted by many natural sources. Therefore, sometimes, the circuit might get falsely triggered, espically when a flip-flop is used with the circuit, and there is no remedy for that."

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #137 on: March 14, 2011, 11:18:53 PM »
One other note on that circuit is I'm not sure the output power would be strong enough.  If not we might get some help from some others here to suggest some add ons for higher power.  Hopefully this doesn't seem to complex but it may be needed to hit the target frequency which I believe is important.  555 circuits and help in building them is abundant on the Internet.  They are really fairly simple and generally quite inexpensive to build.  No need for a circuit board even at these frequencies.   Last circuit I built around a 555 I just put it into a small box and filled it with Silicone.   

Offline Slovenia

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Circuit for Adjusting Piezo
« Reply #138 on: March 15, 2011, 01:18:47 PM »
I just remembered that I have a retired electrician friend in Canada who may be willing to help us.  He can make circuits for anything.  He owns Chemelec.  I'll contact him and see if he'd be willing to help us out.

Offline The Power To Be

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #139 on: March 15, 2011, 01:52:43 PM »
Great job guys, please keep it simple. Stay with the cheap china piezo, they have decent life, 1500 hrs average and is readily available. Someone mentioned the humidifiers,  some model comes with variable frequency, no further modification needed but a bit more costly.

e2matrix,  I had tried  Tesla oscillation  and it does work as well to ionize fog using tubular condensor, added bonus is  repulsion effect but it's a whole different approach.

Online ramset

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #140 on: March 15, 2011, 02:05:24 PM »
Fellows
I think its ROMO's pic
When you post at this forum ,if your image is to large
It makes the entire page huge and we have to scroll back and forth to read!
please keep your pics at the reccomended size?
Romo if you resize those pics the page will go back to normal.
Thanks
Chet

Offline Slovenia

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #141 on: March 15, 2011, 06:43:16 PM »
I just found a great deal on 29% ammonium hydroxide and ordered a 500 Ml container for $10 plus $10 S&H.  That's very cheap guys.

Offline Super God

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #142 on: March 15, 2011, 09:56:12 PM »
So the transducer itself has the circuit on it? Why don't we just use that and feed it with whatever voltage it needs?

Attached is my plan layout. One problem might be the crystals being exposed directly to water. If this causes the effect to disappear I'll try a wettable envelope (although I don't know what difference it will make?)

Offline petar113507

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #143 on: March 16, 2011, 04:34:54 AM »
Fellows
I think its ROMO's pic
When you post at this forum ,if your image is to large
It makes the entire page huge and we have to scroll back and forth to read!
please keep your pics at the reccomended size?
Romo if you resize those pics the page will go back to normal.
Thanks
Chet

Currentlyy having problems editing/finding the editbutton on that post.  I'll see what I can do.  :(

==Romo

Offline petar113507

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #144 on: March 16, 2011, 04:50:45 AM »
So the transducer itself has the circuit on it? Why don't we just use that and feed it with whatever voltage it needs?

Attached is my plan layout. One problem might be the crystals being exposed directly to water. If this causes the effect to disappear I'll try a wettable envelope (although I don't know what difference it will make?)

The ultrasonic pond foggers have an oscilator on them already.  Those oscilators, (for watever reason) were not made to be vibrating at the 43 KHZ that we want them to.  Currently, mine does not vibrate fast enough.

When you make them vibrate faster -- you encounter "ineffecinces" -- I would suspect that this may be the reason powerme has a 36 V input power -- so that the thing still runs or produces forceful enough oscilations.  I will see about keeping the same input transformer (24v) with a faster oscilator, and seeing if the voltage input needs to be stepped up or not.

As chance would have it, one of my room-mates father's is an electrical engineer.  I will be contacting him shortly, and he should also be able to give me his "two cents" about something that should work.

Progress will first be made by someone who posts what their "known electrical engineer" says about a circut.  Mine will contact me in a few days.  If anyone else's contacts them sooner -- please post info, so that we can each 'cross check' to see if one's methods will work or not.  (For me, double checking has been a good practice thus far)

My spark plug arrived today for the 160 CC engine.  So the fogger is the last bit that I need to get working (at the right frequencies), and then I should be able to confirm a replicated "water runner".  I have everything else on-hand, and ready.

At first, I will be testing a lead-acid battery envelopes -- and a will investigate a secondary way of sticking the crystals to some form of acrylic, or steel plates, with some kind of adhesive. 

This is all the progress I can report, aside from reading into some books that powerme might have also "suggested" (at least, a book related to his tangents left behind) to read about.

Will post some of these books shortly,
==Romo

Offline petar113507

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #145 on: March 16, 2011, 05:05:27 AM »
The books contained in "book package"
(Lemme know if the link goes down)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=533MBGYE

The life of henry caverndesh - This guy was also interested in igniting water.  He discovered hydrogen, and all sorts of quirks about water.  This book has given me the beginning of some tangents to press further into his works. (I.E. Looking up more stuff about him)

A treatise on cemistry - Metals (part I & II)

Zinc production and history -- A book about 18th century uses, and refining techniques for zinc.  This book has given me a general idea on how to process zamak -- as well as some of the "crystal" forms of zinc.  I have not carefully looked twice, but have not found that they knew about pizeoelectric properties of the crystals in this book.

Powerme, can you throw out any tangents that relate to these crystals?  How did you learn how to "make the honey of different nectars" with these crystals?  What kind of book/publication can we find the information about lead sulfide/oxide crystals that you are talking about growing?  Did they know in "olden days" what the properties of the crystals were?(I.E.what would they call the effects of the crystals that we would be making?)  What kind of process are we making the crystals with? What did they call those processes?

I am looking for more tangents to research, to 'get ahead' in crystal production -- what aim we will be having with the leaden crystals.  Any clear processes, or instructions are much valued.

For instance -- after you mentioned "influencing", I knew I should become aquainted with all the information about the subject that I could.  (Of which, I am still looking for more, to make the ionizer/wind pump).  Any other processes, or key words in those processes that will assist on what is going on with the crystals (how they draw energy from the enviroment) -- what kind of energy they will be harvesting (I suspect, infared radiation?) -- how we will be rectifying both sides of the wave (in the crystal oscilation), ETC.

That is, unless I am putting the cart before the horse here.

Anything is greatly appreciated.
Thank you for all your help so far,
==Romo
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:36:13 AM by petar113507 »

Offline CompuTutor

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2011, 05:18:21 AM »
Currentlyy having problems editing/finding the editbutton on that post.  I'll see what I can do.  :(

==Romo

Yeah, the button says "Modify",
it is upper right next to "Quote"
and it disappears after way to short a period of time...

Sadly, that is by design,
and the time limit is set way to low !

Offline RAD-HHO

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Piezo frequency
« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2011, 03:43:41 PM »
Hey guys,
I finally got a chance to hook a scope to my piezo.  It's not as simple as it seems.  The piezo disc is part of the circuit.  The oscillator circuit looks to be sending the piezo disc a sawtooth wave @ 120 Hz.
When you hook the piezo disc to the circuit, it turns into a perfect sine wave @ 1.73 Mhz.  This is the frequency the manufacturer said it should be.  This might be a little tricky. :-\

More  to do....

Rick

Offline RAD-HHO

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Piezoelectric Frequency
« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2011, 06:09:00 PM »
Added a 33uH inductor in series with the disc and dropped the frequency to about 1Mhz.  The interesting thing I noticed was the voltage jumped up to 206 volts!  :o

I tried driving the disc with a function generator.  I tried 120hz sine and square waves and I could not get anything out of the disc.  I also tried 20hz - 1.5Khz, and nothing got it going. :(  I did not try saw tooth wave, I dont have that function.  :-[
 ???

Rick
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:29:44 PM by RAD-HHO »

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric
« Reply #149 on: March 16, 2011, 07:39:15 PM »
RAD-HHO,  Thanks for your info and tests on this.  Very interesting results and not at all what I expected.  This is considerably different than what I thought based on the circuit I built many years ago. 

I think it would be great if we could get some input now from Power to Be on how to get the frequency up to the target 43-45 Khz.  If this is as different as it seems then maybe simply increasing the voltage may be a way to increase the frequency but I wouldn't want anyone to risk ruining their setup based on that assumption.  I've got a function generator that will do sawtooth so I'll try to get time to test that. 

  Also if the piezo is putting out 1.73 Mhz that is way above the 43 Khz.  How does this result in producing the apparent 30 Khz range we were told they run in?  I'm lost now...     I'm curious how you were able to read the frequency with the piezo in the circuit?  I think the electrical frequency across the piezo is not the actual frequency it vibrates at since 1.73 Mhz is way above ultrasonic frequency.  I'm guessing here but it sounds like we may need to raise that frequency to get a higher vibration output at the disk.