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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Low-Q on February 10, 2011, 01:48:07 PM

Title: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 10, 2011, 01:48:07 PM
Hi all,

I got a request from @Neptune about posting a link to www.peswiki.com (http://www.peswiki.com) regarding a simple zero point energy thing:

Here it is:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:_Claus_W._Turtur:_Zero_Point_Energy_Converter_in_the_Kilowatt_Range (http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:_Claus_W._Turtur:_Zero_Point_Energy_Converter_in_the_Kilowatt_Range)

Vidar
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: turbo on February 10, 2011, 01:53:49 PM
That's a rotary lifter.
Don't you see the sharp tips at the edges of the can?
It's just propelled by ion wind man.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 10, 2011, 02:04:21 PM
Maybe ;D I was just asked to help to create a new thread with this link. I have no clue whatsoever how this are suppose to work. Maybe some reading will help...

Vidar
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 10, 2011, 03:40:51 PM
First of all many thanks to Low-Q for starting this thread . I wanted to do it myself , but do not have the necessary computer skills . It seems to me that  Prof Turtur is a very well educated man , and in this article ,he describes the basic theory behind a practical FE motor , first analysing several different designs , and pointing out their shortcomings . He then goes on to describe his final design , which consists of no more than a simple magnet revolving inside a simple coil , across which is connected a capacitor . He goes on to describe the theory of how and why it should work as a motor , and how it could drive a load of 1Kw .
         Obviously there is more to it than that , and he goes on to talk about resonance .[ we have heard that before] Somewhere in the article he suggests a max speed for the magnet rotation of 6000RPM . Now IF I understand him ,the Tank circuit formed by the coil and capacitor must have a resonant frequency of 100 Hz . Because the output of the alternator formed by the magnet and coil will be at 100Hz . Based on what I remember from my Amateur Radio days , This will cause practical problems . Notice that the coil is air cored . So to resonate at this frequency we will need a huge coil and a huge capacitor . Can someone who is good at mathematics work out the value of these components .The other possibility is to tune the circuit to a higher , harmonic frequency , but he does not mention this . Any Ideas?
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: tak22 on February 10, 2011, 03:41:35 PM
Yes, reading is better, start here: http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=219 (http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=219)

tak
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 10, 2011, 06:01:16 PM
First of all many thanks to Low-Q for starting this thread . I wanted to do it myself , but do not have the necessary computer skills . It seems to me that  Prof Turtur is a very well educated man , and in this article ,he describes the basic theory behind a practical FE motor , first analysing several different designs , and pointing out their shortcomings . He then goes on to describe his final design , which consists of no more than a simple magnet revolving inside a simple coil , across which is connected a capacitor . He goes on to describe the theory of how and why it should work as a motor , and how it could drive a load of 1Kw .
         Obviously there is more to it than that , and he goes on to talk about resonance .[ we have heard that before] Somewhere in the article he suggests a max speed for the magnet rotation of 6000RPM . Now IF I understand him ,the Tank circuit formed by the coil and capacitor must have a resonant frequency of 100 Hz . Because the output of the alternator formed by the magnet and coil will be at 100Hz . Based on what I remember from my Amateur Radio days , This will cause practical problems . Notice that the coil is air cored . So to resonate at this frequency we will need a huge coil and a huge capacitor . Can someone who is good at mathematics work out the value of these components .The other possibility is to tune the circuit to a higher , harmonic frequency , but he does not mention this . Any Ideas?
Frequency = 1 / 2 x PI x (root[C x L])

If the coil (L) are 100mH, then the capacitor (C) will be 25uF at 100Hz resonance. To achieve this capacitor with just two parallell plates, the area would cover a quite big area...

The Q-value should be as high as possible, and will depend on the load, and choise of inductor and capacitor. A lower inductor value, means greater capacitor to achieve same resonant frecuency.

When this circuit are loaded, the Q-value will drop, and it require more energy input to maintain the amplitude of that given frequency. Also a lower Q (Low-Q) will result in a different resonant frequency.

To achieve harmonic frequencies, you need to apply distordtion into the system, a non-linear component can do that. How to implement such a device, I do not know except using a coil with iron core. These coils will generate a significant harmonic distrortion at the point when the iron core are significantly saturated with magnetic flux as the amplitude of the signal increase and more current can flow through the windings.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 10, 2011, 06:15:55 PM
@marco. Your comments dont seem to relate to the article in question . Are you sure we are discussing the same article ? I dont see any cans , or sharp edges .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: bourne on February 10, 2011, 06:32:45 PM
@marco. Your comments dont seem to relate to the article in question . Are you sure we are discussing the same article ? I dont see any cans , or sharp edges .

@neptune, marco is referring to the video about half way down the peswiki page. The video shows a cut down drinks can which has sharp edges bent out to form vanes.

Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 10, 2011, 06:37:39 PM
@Low-Q . once again I am indebted to you for your help .Thanks . I f you read the article very carefully , you will see that the capacitor does not have to be just two plates in the final version . The two plates design was for the earlier version . Never the less , we are talking a lot of capacitance at 25mf . An electrolytic capacitor is unsuitable . The author says a "commercial" capacitor is suitable ,but I would think that such a cap would be physically large . Same with the coil . I seem to recall that the author mentions a coil diameter of 7cms . Does anyone have any idea of the number of turns to achieve 100mH on a 7 cm former . As you rightly point out , the aim is a tank circuit with a high Q factor . This brings in to play , I seem to remember , coil shape factor [length/diameter ratio] and also , I think there is an optimum L to C  ratio . I do not say that these problems are insurmountable ,but the author talks about a unit the size of an electric drill . So it is not going to be as easy as building a crystal radio set ... On the other hand , If i built a 1Kw unit the size of a washing machine , I would be quite Happy .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 10, 2011, 06:39:04 PM
@bourne . Thanks.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 10, 2011, 06:59:30 PM
@Low-Q . once again I am indebted to you for your help .Thanks . I f you read the article very carefully , you will see that the capacitor does not have to be just two plates in the final version . The two plates design was for the earlier version . Never the less , we are talking a lot of capacitance at 25mf . An electrolytic capacitor is unsuitable . The author says a "commercial" capacitor is suitable ,but I would think that such a cap would be physically large . Same with the coil . I seem to recall that the author mentions a coil diameter of 7cms . Does anyone have any idea of the number of turns to achieve 100mH on a 7 cm former . As you rightly point out , the aim is a tank circuit with a high Q factor . This brings in to play , I seem to remember , coil shape factor [length/diameter ratio] and also , I think there is an optimum L to C  ratio . I do not say that these problems are insurmountable ,but the author talks about a unit the size of an electric drill . So it is not going to be as easy as building a crystal radio set ... On the other hand , If i built a 1Kw unit the size of a washing machine , I would be quite Happy .
You can use a smaller inductor, like any value, but the capacitor must also be adjusted to the approperiate value to maintain same frequency. The smaller the inductor are, the less resistance, hence higher Q. A 100mH air core inductor at only 7cm in diameter means quite many turns of thin wire. Use an even bigger oil, thicker wire and less turns. Make the coil as short as possible to increase the inductivity further.
However, with a 1000uF capacitor you need only 2.5mH inductor to meet the requirement of 100Hz resonance. Now the inductor can be made maller, with less resistance, and higher Q. However, in such circuit, the current flowing through the components will increase greately compared to a bigger coil and smaller capacitor. What do you need? High or low current flow?

I guess a "suitable" balance in component values can provide the highest efficiency. What values these are, are depending on the mechanical system and the load.

Vidar
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 10, 2011, 07:34:18 PM
@Low-Q . I have taken note of all the information you gave me . Thanks . It is true what you say about the highest efficiency being obtained by a suitable choice of component values . To start with , it would be enough to build a machine that would self rotate , without a load . Proof of concept . At this stage ,the actual current value would not matter as long as the wire used could carry it without melting . When we consider a load , we can then think about current and voltage . Initially ,the load could only consist of a purely resistive load with a neutral temperature coefficient , or it would de-tune the machine and stop it .
        In my radio days , I used a home made Grid Dip Oscillator to find the resonant frequency of tuned circuits . This method could not be used here due to the low frequency . One idea is to add a temporary extra feedback coil to the tank circuit , and build a one transistor audio oscillator . You could listen to the oscillation on headphones and compare it to the notes of an electric organ , or use a frequency counter . Although this device looks deceptively simple , I feel that success would only be achieved by someone who is very good at mathematics .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 10, 2011, 08:08:48 PM
Further to my last post . Re organ notes . find middle C , then work down one octave to the C below . now go down to the G below that . The frequency of that G is 98 Hz . Here is another thought . This design will either work or it will not work . Therefore , providing the tuned circuit has a reasonable Q , All you need to do is rotate the magnet by outside energy , and allow it to slow down until its speed is synchronised with the frequency of the tuned circuit . At this point it should "lock" and continue to run on its own . In practise this may need many tries . I remember trying to use a bicycle dynamo as a synchronous motor on a 6 volt 50 cycle supply . I could start it as above using a bit of string wound round the pulley , but the success rate was only about 10% .In the case of the zero point machine , it would be more difficult because the magnet has to turn at the correct speed for about 2 seconds for current to build up the electrical circuit .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 10, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
I will make one with 10 pcs. 100uF capacitors in parallell (1000uF) and use a regular crossover coil for loudspeakers. 2.5mH air core. Our coils have less than 0.3 ohm resistance, which is good for a 2.5mH air core coil. Lucky for me, I work as an engineer in a loudspeaker company (dynaBel AS in Norway - this is happy me:http://www.dynabel.no/vidar-web.jpg (http://www.dynabel.no/vidar-web.jpg), and have access to any parts needed to make a device such as this :)

Vidar.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 11, 2011, 01:22:19 AM
From the article... (final conception)

6000 RPM (magnet) mecanic part => 100Hz electric part

Coil:
1.0 mm^2 (wire)
n = 1600 turn
diamater of the coil 0.09m
length of the coil 0.01m

Capacitor:
0.23 E-6

magnet:
diam.: 2x (0.039m)
lenght: 0.01m
0.7 tesla
(iron +/- 7.8E3 density... unity ?)

LightRider

(information come form the source code)
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 11, 2011, 01:28:31 AM
Here is a print screen of the source code.
LightRider

ps.: it remains the math... to see if the resonant frequency of 100Hz is good.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 11, 2011, 02:26:12 AM
L = 404000 uH (approximation)
C = 0.23 uF (from source code)

Freq = 522.11 Hz

LightRider

edit1: L = (0.394 * r^2 * N^2) / (9r + 10A)   (In Metric Units "cm")
edit2: Freq = 1 / (2*pi*sqrt(L*C))
edit3:
r = 0.045 m
N = 1600 turn
A = 0.01 m

edit4: "copper wire from which the coil is made has a cross section area of 1.0 mm2, which is not too much for an electric alternating current of  Imax = 18 Ampere in the peak"

Look at the table 18 Gage SWG (or 16 Gage AWG) = 1.17mm^2 @ 22 amp max (3.7 amp )

Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 11, 2011, 03:26:08 AM
From "http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=219"
remark in "()" are from me...

"...We approach to the adjustment of the system parameters with all resistors being switched of (Ohm’s resistor and load resistor both being zero). Then we start the rotation of the magnet with a well defined number of revolutions per minute (6000 RPM). Under these conditions, we start to adjust the  electric LCR-oscillation-circuit to the same frequency as the rotation of the magnet has. At the beginning, the electrical circuit did not contain any energy. When the adjustment of the electrical oscillation-circuit is close enough to the frequency of the initial rotation, we have a state of the system, which can be understood as the double-resonance of the electrical and the mechanical parts. In this state, the system begins to build up classical energy by alone, and the new classical energy is coming from the zero-point reservoir.

As soon as we have found this point of operation, we can slowly introduce the Ohm’s resistance of the coil’s wire, in tiny steps, step by step, into the differential equations. But we have to perform very small steps for the enhancement of this Ohm’s resistance, and always to renew the adjustment the parameters of the electrical circuit (capacity, inductivity, number of coil’s windings) step by step, in order not to lose the state of operation, in which zero-point energy is gained. This procedure has to be done very carefully; otherwise we would lose the information about the good operation of the system. Step by step we learn how to operate the system in a way, that the power-gain from the zero-point-energy is large enough to support the complete coil (with its whole Ohm’s resistance) with power. Very carefully we give attention to the double-resonance in order not to lose it.

When this mode of operation is found, the rotor runs safe and reproducible with the system parameters we have found, to be a self-running engine...."

LightRider
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Omnibus on February 11, 2011, 03:47:24 AM
All this is well and good except for the zero point energy part. Just mentioning it in the text doesn't prove at all that the source of rotation is zero point energy. First things first -- has he actually achieved self-sustaining run? If yes, then this device has to be replicated without delay. Only replication of the self-sustaining run by independent parties may turn this into something worthwhile. We've seen way too many claims for self-sustaining devices that have never been proven to be so independently to take one more claim seriously. If he hasn't achieved self-sustaining run then very careful energy balance has to be done before attempts to explain theoretically (zpe shouldn't even be a candidate) something that hasn't even been proven to be OU.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 11, 2011, 05:01:46 AM
All this is well and good except for the zero point energy part. Just mentioning it in the text doesn't prove at all that the source of rotation is zero point energy. First things first -- has he actually achieved self-sustaining run? If yes, then this device has to be replicated without delay. Only replication of the self-sustaining run by independent parties may turn this into something worthwhile. We've seen way too many claims for self-sustaining devices that have never been proven to be so independently to take one more claim seriously. If he hasn't achieved self-sustaining run then very careful energy balance has to be done before attempts to explain theoretically (zpe shouldn't even be a candidate) something that hasn't even been proven to be OU.

This comme from "Professor Claus W. Turtur from the University of Applied Sciences in Germany".
"He is a highly regarded theoretician who proved zero-point energy conversion in a published paper" 

http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:_Claus_W._Turtur:_Zero_Point_Energy_Converter_in_the_Kilowatt_Range

have you read his published paper ?
(It's theories, computer simulations and some small experiments... interesting)

LightRider
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Omnibus on February 11, 2011, 05:53:58 AM
I know but what matters is is this really a self-sustaining rig or not? The theory itself has underlying problems pertaining to the fundamental problems of quantum mechanics and therefore it isn't essential. Zero point energy does come about from QM but that doesn't mean it is physical. There are other effects coming out from QM which are outright non-physical as well. The experiment is of the essence in all these studies.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 11, 2011, 09:48:47 AM
All this is well and good except for the zero point energy part. Just mentioning it in the text doesn't prove at all that the source of rotation is zero point energy. First things first -- has he actually achieved self-sustaining run? If yes, then this device has to be replicated without delay. Only replication of the self-sustaining run by independent parties may turn this into something worthwhile. We've seen way too many claims for self-sustaining devices that have never been proven to be so independently to take one more claim seriously. If he hasn't achieved self-sustaining run then very careful energy balance has to be done before attempts to explain theoretically (zpe shouldn't even be a candidate) something that hasn't even been proven to be OU.
I can't agree more. Good points!

I do hope there is something into this "ZPE" device - even if it shouldn't be called ZPE at all.

I will try to understand the concept, and build a simple rig with the necessary components.

Vidar
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 11, 2011, 02:37:15 PM
I know but what matters is is this really a self-sustaining rig or not? The theory itself has underlying problems pertaining to the fundamental problems of quantum mechanics and therefore it isn't essential. Zero point energy does come about from QM but that doesn't mean it is physical. There are other effects coming out from QM which are outright non-physical as well. The experiment is of the essence in all these studies.

I think what is really matters is to take concrete actions to contribute to this progress.
Words are words, used to develop a theory or even to analyze a theory.
What action have we made ourselves today to contribute to this progress? that's the question.

LightRider
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on February 11, 2011, 03:44:38 PM
So far the part list to build is:

1 motor 6krpm (or high speed drill)
1 diametric ring magnet in center of coil attached to drill.
16 Awg wire
Variable Capacitor to tweak the sweet spot
Resistive load

Am I leaving any parts out?
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 11, 2011, 04:32:03 PM
So far the part list to build is:

1 motor 6krpm (or high speed drill)
1 diametric ring magnet in center of coil attached to drill.
16 Awg wire
Variable Capacitor to tweak the sweet spot
Resistive load

Am I leaving any parts out?
It is easier to fine tune the coil I guess. Moving a piece of iron nearby a coil will change the inductance, and the resonant frequency.

Vidar
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: e2matrix on February 11, 2011, 07:05:29 PM
A quick thought for those needing variable capacitance.  This could apply here or any projects needing this.  Old Ham radio antenna tuners can sometimes be found for cheap.  They often contain one or two large variable caps as well as coils.  If you can get in the ballpark with a fixed cap and then put this variable tuner in line with it you may be able to more easily dial it right in.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 12, 2011, 04:25:27 AM
A quick thought for those needing variable capacitance.  This could apply here or any projects needing this.  Old Ham radio antenna tuners can sometimes be found for cheap.  They often contain one or two large variable caps as well as coils.  If you can get in the ballpark with a fixed cap and then put this variable tuner in line with it you may be able to more easily dial it right in.

like this?
LightRider
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: e2matrix on February 12, 2011, 07:52:37 AM
Nice.  Looks like that one is made for some fairly high power.  :D
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 12, 2011, 10:12:41 AM
Such open capacitors have very low value - maybe in the nano or pico farad range. It will change capacitance with temperature and humidity as the dielectrium are just an open space of air between the plates. These capacitors are designed for very high frequencies - in radio recievers, as an example.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: broli on February 12, 2011, 11:20:16 AM
You could always place them in a solution of baking soda:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/varelec.htm
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: exnihiloest on February 12, 2011, 11:44:46 AM
The capacitors are in the range of hundreds pF, typically 600-1200 pF max, but are not very sensitive to temperature/humidity, at least in temperate countries (nevertheless I don't hear about problems when used in tropical regions with 100% humidity, what is frequent during "DXepeditions" of ham operators).
Frequency range is typically 1.8 - 30 Mhz. To tune the system to the lowest frequencies of the range, generally below 5 Mhz, fixed capacitors are automatically switched on and added in parallel to the variable capacitor.
It must be emphasized that these capacitors work only when a load is connected (an antenna), otherwise voltage in resonant LC circuits rapidily exceeds the capacitor breakdown voltage which is rather low.
In the case of very high voltage, vacuum capacitors are much more  preferable but not at the same price!
http://www.surplussales.com/vaccumvarcaps/VVC6.html


Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: broli on February 12, 2011, 12:02:12 PM
Made a quick cap and it has quite a good capacitance.

Just one small cup of water and 1 tea spoon baking soda. Biased aluminum electrode positively with power supply untill current dropped to zero. Maximum capacitance I can measure is 48.1uF.

Very easy to adjust by just pulling the electrode in and out. Attached a crappy pic.

Not bad for such a simple setup that can be improved a lot.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 12, 2011, 04:45:11 PM
My computer has been off the air 24 hours due to virus .Good to see people discussing this . The way i see it is that this device is so simple , and in theory so promising that I hope someone builds . I know Omnibus is not a believer in Zero point , but we must leave no stone unturned in our quest . Just a couple of thoughts at this time , more later . First frequency . I get the impression that the actual frequency is not critical ,and higher is better . The limiting factor being mechanical constraints . This means that if the capacitor value is in the right ball park ,  the device can be "tuned" simply by varying the speed of the starter motor in small increments . Remember the device needs to be in resonance for a couple of seconds before it will "lock" . The coil and magnet form an alternator . One possibility is to use a cycle dynamo [alternator .]After all it has bearings designed to run at up to 20,000 rpm at a road speed of 20mph .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 12, 2011, 08:29:33 PM
For those who have never taken one apart ,here is the description of a bicycle dynamo . In spite of its name , a so-called bike dynamo is actually an alternator . It is driven by friction from the bicycle tyre , resulting in a step up gear ratio pf about 33 to 1 . Inside there is a cylindrical magnet mounted on the shaft .This magnet is magnetised across the diameter . There is a horseshoe shaped core of laminated iron or ferrite on which a coil is wound . The magnet spins between the poles of the horseshoe , which usually has its poles shaped in a semicircular fashion to give a small uniform airgap between core and magnet . Happily for our purpose , the core will add considerably to the inductance of the coil . It would seem that Prof Turtur has experimentally proved the reality of Zero point energy . Does anyone know a cheap easy way to measure the  inductance of this coil? Given a suitable capacitor , all that is needed is a variable speed motor , and ideally a scope to monitor the voltage accross  the cap , to reveal when synchronisation hapens . Then it is just a case of disconnecting the drive .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: infringer on February 12, 2011, 10:01:11 PM
The so called "magnet" in an alternator is actually an electromagnet. And secondly the bearings used in an alternator suck the big one because they are magnetic and does cause drag in the charging system if someone were to build some 203 stainless non magnetic versions of the bearings in an alternator they would surely increase fuel economy in a vehicle. I know this may seem hard to believe or swallow but you learn these things when you try to build wind turbines out of your car alternator. Surely find it out yourself the hard way but it is accurate. And it is also cited somewhere that over time the stainless could potentially become magnetic with wear but I've used brand spanking new parts for my builds to find a major flaw in these units. Enjoy -infringer-

EDIT:
Nice to see the ole fashioned baking soda cap lol good thinking simple and possibly effective.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 12, 2011, 10:16:53 PM
@infringer .If you read my post again carefully you will see that I am talking about an alternator from a BICYCLE and not one from a motor vehicle . BICYCLE alternators definitely have a PERMANENT MAGNET , NOT AN ELECTROMAGNET .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: infringer on February 13, 2011, 12:48:24 AM
indeed, you did I stand corrected. Damn AC Delco's roflmao

How are the bearings in bicycle motors??? Heavy on the ferrous ???

I am interested I still have only found a producer of a single bearing inside the ac delco alternator but the shaft end bearing which looks like a cap I have not been able to locate sucks the big one with these two things I could potentially have a good wind generator...

Anyhow just sharing things from my tests that may help your build not intended to detour you in any way from your path to FE believe me!

Again enjoy
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 13, 2011, 04:19:57 PM
@Infringer . No worries ! To be honest I have never really looked at the bearings on a bike alternator . They are designed for relatively short periods of use ,but have to work at 20,00 rpm plus . Should be adequate for a proof of concept job .I am a bit disappointed that there is not more interest in this , as it fairly easy to build and holds so much potential . I am unable to build myself at present due to health issues .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 13, 2011, 05:57:36 PM
Made a quick cap and it has quite a good capacitance.

Just one small cup of water and 1 tea spoon baking soda. Biased aluminum electrode positively with power supply untill current dropped to zero. Maximum capacitance I can measure is 48.1uF.

Very easy to adjust by just pulling the electrode in and out. Attached a crappy pic.

Not bad for such a simple setup that can be improved a lot.
You have made a resistor. Not a capacitor. Try to measure the resistance. In a capacitor, the resistance should be infinite, else there will leak current between the two plates.
The electrolyte cannot be conductive. Salt water are conductive.

Vidar
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: broli on February 13, 2011, 06:31:04 PM
You have made a resistor. Not a capacitor. Try to measure the resistance. In a capacitor, the resistance should be infinite, else there will leak current between the two plates.
The electrolyte cannot be conductive. Salt water are conductive.

Vidar

At least do some research dude. The idea behind applying a positive voltage on the aluminum electrode before use is in order to create an insulating oxide layer. Yes there's leakage like in any other capacitor but that depends on the applied voltage.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Low-Q on February 14, 2011, 10:01:45 AM
At least do some research dude. The idea behind applying a positive voltage on the aluminum electrode before use is in order to create an insulating oxide layer. Yes there's leakage like in any other capacitor but that depends on the applied voltage.
The capacitor you made are still just a resistor - mainly. A good capacitor can carry a charge for several weeks without dropping voltage. In order to make a good resonant system, the capacitor must not leak. On the other hand, an ideal inductor would be one with zero resistance. A capacitor with great current leak, combined with an inductor with high resistance, will make an oscillator which is hard to maintain the ampitude unless more energy are applied into the system.

I recomend you to use a polypropylene capacitor, and an inductor with low internal resistance which you can vary inductance by approaching a piece of iron.

Vidar
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: woopy on February 14, 2011, 02:46:13 PM
Here is a print screen of the source code.
LightRider

ps.: it remains the math... to see if the resonant frequency of 100Hz is good.

Hi Lightrider

thanks for this post

I read the entire paper from C.Turtur very interesting stuff and i made my mind on a preplication

So i am estonished because the coil should be very thin (0.01 meter =1 cm thickness ) and if the copper wire is 0.001 meter =1 mm diameter (and not square mm) i can only wind 10 turns per layer , that is to say for 1600 turns we need 160 layers.
So if the center body of the coil is 9 cm diameter, the outer diameter of the coil would be   9 cm + 16 cm + 16 cm = 41 cm diameter ?
So it is a very large and flat coil .
Or could it be a mistake in the code script ? Or do i miss something ?

what do you think?

good luck at all

laurent
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: woopy on February 14, 2011, 03:02:13 PM
So far the part list to build is:

1 motor 6krpm (or high speed drill)
1 diametric ring magnet in center of coil attached to drill.
16 Awg wire
Variable Capacitor to tweak the sweet spot
Resistive load

Am I leaving any parts out?


Hi DTB

In the paper of C.Turtur it is not clear if the disc magnet is diametricaly magnetised or normal (a north and a south face)
I agree with you it should be diametric but are you sure of that ?
And do you know what quality of magnet it is . In the code it is written 0.7 tesla for a diameter of 7.8 cm and a 1 cm thickness , so is it neodym or other material ?

Thanks

Laurent
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 14, 2011, 03:11:50 PM
I don't think that the magnetic material is specified . Neither is the orientation of the poles except in one of the diagrams where the words North and South [in German] are written on the magnet therfore I think it is magnetised diametrically . Given the strength of the magnet in Teslas , there are people here who can tell us if this is possible only with Neodymium , or if other materials will do the job . On the Peswiki page , an email address is given for prof Turtur , but I could not make it work , to invite him here . Could someone else try to email him ? Anyone got opinions on the coil dimensions?
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 14, 2011, 07:30:24 PM
Here are my latest thoughts on this . First of all the magnet material . If we look back on Lightriders post on the source code , we see a line that reads something like "rhom=7.8E3 density of magnetic material iron . It is very unlikely that one would use pure iron for a permanent magnet , so I assume it is probably an iron alloy such as ALNI or ALNICO . A source for this would be a cycle dynamo magnet , turned down in a lathe to the specified diameter .
       Another practical problem may be that the magnet shaft needs to actually penetrate the coil windings which is not very practical . An alternative would be to mount the whole magnet , shaft and bearing assembly within the coil former , and use a rubber wheel as a friction drive to the magnet . Ideally the shaft and bearings ought to be non ferrous ,and ultimately non conductive of eddy currents . I do not know how important these last two are .
       The more I think about it , the more I am reminded of the Bedini Windows Motor . I never was a Bedini fan , but it makes you think ... I seem to remember that the window motor had a shaft that penetrated the windings . I am still thinking about that coil shape , as the coil in the diagrams of Prof Turtur is a solenoid shape .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on February 14, 2011, 10:51:02 PM
Hi Laurent,

It looks to be diametric from his drawings. In Fig13 he shows the field lines as going through the magnet and perpendicular to the axis of rotation. In Fig28 he shows both Nord(North), Sud(South) on edges of magnet.

I'm not sure what the magnet material is. .7Tesla = 7000 Gauss. A 3" diametric ring magnet is hard to find, so we might have to play with the values for a smaller magnet.

I don't think my e-mail went through but I tried to contact Prof Turtur (c-w.turtur@ostfalia.de)(<- Is this correct?) to see if it was possible to calculate a new setup with a commercially available magnet. Here is a 1" ~7000 Gauss diametric magnet: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX024DIA

I think Neptune's idea of using a small rubber wheel to spin the magnet would be great. All you need are small indents inside the coils tube to hold the shaft for the magnet. The magnet is 3.07"(7.8cm) in diameter so it sticks above 0.2"(1/2cm) the coil which is 2.67"(6.8cm) high.

The hardest part is getting the magnet to spin freely in the middle of the coil. It sounds simple but the winds would have to be pulled around the shaft but far enough that they don't cause friction, get pulled in or distort the inductance. Anybody have other ideas on designing the coil?
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: penno64 on February 15, 2011, 12:43:30 AM
Hi all,

is this not on the same lines as -

http://www.youtube.com/user/64298#p/u/0/8_iyr_ng1Us

Penno
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 15, 2011, 01:11:31 AM
Hi Lightrider

thanks for this post

I read the entire paper from C.Turtur very interesting stuff and i made my mind on a preplication

So i am estonished because the coil should be very thin (0.01 meter =1 cm thickness ) and if the copper wire is 0.001 meter =1 mm diameter (and not square mm) i can only wind 10 turns per layer , that is to say for 1600 turns we need 160 layers.
So if the center body of the coil is 9 cm diameter, the outer diameter of the coil would be   9 cm + 16 cm + 16 cm = 41 cm diameter ?
So it is a very large and flat coil .
Or could it be a mistake in the code script ? Or do i miss something ?

what do you think?

good luck at all

laurent

Hi Laurent,

First, the paper say "...copper wire from which the coil is made has a cross section area of 1.0 mm^2..." (square mm) THIS is in the text.
But in the code source say "0.0010 m"

(...Anyway in one case it give 1.0mm Dia. and the other give 1.13mm Dia.)

160 layers seem to be a good calculation.
41 cm seem to be good too... (magnet is 0.078mm Dia. so the coil can't be much smaller that 0.09mm)

"So it is a very large and flat coil" => agree

It seem to be the difference between a "Simulated reality" and "The reality".
It is unclear whether this physical configuration has a major impact on a real experience.

Thanks for taking the time to raise this information, which doesn't jump to the eye at first glance.

LightRider
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 15, 2011, 01:40:44 AM

Hi DTB

In the paper of C.Turtur it is not clear if the disc magnet is diametricaly magnetised or normal (a north and a south face)
I agree with you it should be diametric but are you sure of that ?
And do you know what quality of magnet it is . In the code it is written 0.7 tesla for a diameter of 7.8 cm and a 1 cm thickness , so is it neodym or other material ?

Thanks

Laurent


Magnetic properties: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_magnet

Nd2Fe14B (sintered)    1.0–1.4 Br (T)
Nd2Fe14B (bonded)    0.6–0.7 Br (T)
SmCo5 (sintered)    0.8–1.1 Br (T)
Sm(Co,Fe,Cu,Zr)7 (sintered)    0.9–1.15  Br (T)
Alnico (sintered)    0.6–1.4 Br (T)   
Sr-ferrite (sintered)    0.2–0.4 Br (T)

LightRider

Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 15, 2011, 11:38:51 AM
@DreamThinkBuild . I think you missed my shaft/bearing idea .Imagine a short shaft that only protrudes 1cm each side of the magnet . Bearings are fitted to the shaft ends , and are supported by vertical members going down to a base board .The coil is then fitted over the above assembly and supported to the correct height on spacers to the baseboard. thus the total shaft length of the shaft is shorter than the inside diameter of the hole in the center of the coil . That was the idea of the rubber wheel , as access to the shaft ends would now not be possible . Great idea to get the Prof to re design it around a commercial magnet , even if this gives a reduced performance .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 15, 2011, 11:50:59 AM
LATEST NEWS . Recieved an email from the Professor himself . He has agreed to answer some questions . Got to work now ,more later.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 15, 2011, 03:47:28 PM
The professor is a very busy man , working 100 plus hours a week in medicine . He has no time to join us here . He asked me for a phone number so he could me and answer questions . I am not the ideal man for the job due to my limited mathematics . Could we elect a spokesperson such as Woopy , Lightrider ,Low-Q or anyone who is mathematically fluent . Send him an email with your phone number . c-w.turtur@ostfalia.de   but we need to agree a list of questions . Here are mine .
1 What is shape of coil , pancake?
2can it be redisigned with a commercial magnet {we need to agree a particular magnet]
3 Can it be designed to run at any frequency [is higher freq better?]
4 Material of magnet.
5 Can it be started by adjusting the magnet speed rather than the tuned circuit?
6 Will varying the resistance of the load cause detuning and stop the machine .
Feel free
 to add questions .
I thought an Algorithm was a drunken dance!
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: teslaalset on February 15, 2011, 04:09:07 PM
All,

Prof. Turtur sent me usefull information on his work.
One of this is the Windows executable program of his simulation as posted in the article's appendix.

The program uses an additional parameter file where you can alter the parameters and then run the program again. Put both files in the same directory and it should just run fine.
The output is send to a text file that you can import to Excel.

Both files are attached. Double click the .exe file and a dos window opens with some output info.
I zipped both files because .exe and .dat files are not allowed to be uploaded here, so first unzip both files first before you use them.

B.t.w. I found a small glitch in his article.
The article discusses a motor with the dimensions of 9 x 6.8 cm and output of 1.07 KW.
However, in his simulation data he uses a coil of 9 x 1 cm.
Applying 6.8 cm coil hight in the parameter file results in 27.7 KW something.
So, a bit of parameter tuning is required to get more realistic values. The attached files can help doing that.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 15, 2011, 07:12:35 PM
All,

Prof. Turtur sent me usefull information on his work.
One of this is the Windows executable program of his simulation as posted in the article's appendix.

The program uses an additional parameter file where you can alter the parameters and then run the program again. Put both files in the same directory and it should just run fine.
The output is send to a text file that you can import to Excel.

Both files are attached. Double click the .exe file and a dos window opens with some output info.
I zipped both files because .exe and .dat files are not allowed to be uploaded here, so first unzip both files first before you use them.

B.t.w. I found a small glitch in his article.
The article discusses a motor with the dimensions of 9 x 6.8 cm and output of 1.07 KW.
However, in his simulation data he uses a coil of 9 x 1 cm.
Applying 6.8 cm coil hight in the parameter file results in 27.7 KW something.

So, a bit of parameter tuning is required to get more realistic values. The attached files can help doing that.

Hi teslaalset,
Thanks for the files.

The paper say (in the last conception) "...This magnet has to rotate inside a coil with "n" windings. All windings can be located at the same position in good approximation. Other then in section 5, this is a good approximation here, because the magnet interacts with the coil not by translation but by rotation..."

Maybe this wasn't a good approximation ?

Let's try this program ! ;)

LightRider
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 15, 2011, 07:24:11 PM
Here is the english "google" translation (parameter only... just copy/past... save)

1600     {n:=number of turns of the coil}
0.09     {di:=spool diameter, m}
0.0010   {Dd:=wire diameter, m}
0.700    {Bo:=magnetic field (amplitude) of the permanent magnet, Tesla}
0.01     {ls:=length of the cylindrical coil body, meters}
0.23E-6   {C:=capacitance of the capacitor, farad}
0.039    {rm:=radius of the cylindrical permanent magnets, meters}
0.01     {dm:=thickness of the cylindrical permanent magnets, meters}
7.8E3    {rhom:=density of the magnetic material, iron, Kohlrausch vol.3 kg/m^3}
1.7E-8   {rho:=Spec Resistance of copper,  Ohm*m}
100      {UmAn:=Start value: revolutions per second at the start of the rotor}
28       {Rlast:=static load resistance, Ohm}
0.0001   {dt:=size of time steps, sec}
1        {Abstd:=What number = Everyone points to be plotted}

LightRider
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 15, 2011, 07:42:10 PM
B.t.w. I found a small glitch in his article.
The article discusses a motor with the dimensions of 9 x 6.8 cm and output of 1.07 KW.
However, in his simulation data he uses a coil of 9 x 1 cm.
Applying 6.8 cm coil hight in the parameter file results in 27.7 KW something.
So, a bit of parameter tuning is required to get more realistic values. The attached files can help doing that.

@ teslaalset :

It seem more (ls) is high the more Watt (limit of the simulation?)
(is) = 0.10m => 237 Kw
(is) = 0.90m => 46387 Kw

Worst with :
(di) = 0.70m => 88825909 Kw
(di) = 0.71m => 0.01 Kw
(di) = 0.80m => 47770 Kw
(di) = 0.81m => 0.007 Kw

... what do you think ?

LightRider



Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 15, 2011, 09:40:30 PM
@Lightrider . You are obviously very computer literate . Could you use this computer program to forecast if the machine would work with a different magnet diameter , preferably one of commercially available size .O r even make a table as in your last post showing a range of commercial sizes and the resultant out put? This would be a great further step towards a practical design .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: teslaalset on February 15, 2011, 09:51:33 PM
@ teslaalset :

It seem more (ls) is high the more Watt (limit of the simulation?)
(is) = 0.10m => 237 Kw
(is) = 0.90m => 46387 Kw

Worst with :
(di) = 0.70m => 88825909 Kw
(di) = 0.71m => 0.01 Kw
(di) = 0.80m => 47770 Kw
(di) = 0.81m => 0.007 Kw

... what do you think ?

LightRider

The whole setup is quite critical but with the default parameter set, Turtur gave us a 'realistic' model. Wire diameter is the one that should be chosen a realistic value.
You can obtain much more output, as you showed, but then you need superconducting wire.
Some parameter combinations will not give you any output, as you showed with some of your settings. It's all about finetuning into realistic values here.

@neptune,
You can use the program and the parameter file to change the magnet dimensions and see whether you can find your desired outcome. It's pretty simple, you don't need to be a computer wizzerd.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: woopy on February 15, 2011, 11:04:53 PM
Wow !!

good thread indeed

Thanks very much Teslaalset Fantastic easy program  i will certainly spend some time on it.

@ Neptune

For the question to Prof Turtur  for me now is only 1, is it a diametricaly magnetisation and material of the magnet. For the rest all is in the program so far.

Neptune you only have to download the 2 files that Teslaalset gave above. Than you unzip the 2 files in 1 directory For instance your Document under a file named TURTUR. Than in the TURTUR file, you have to open the file "parameter" (open it with a WINDOW NOTEPAD* program, so you can modify all the datas as you will, than, when you are finished with your modifications, you simply clic on " register " in the "file menu. And than you click on the icon of the program in the TURTUR file and you get the result on the bottom line of the DOS presentation. No need to be a freak really easy Thank's Prof Turtur.

So you can test all dimension of coil , magnet diameter and thickness,wire diameter coil diameter etc  really simple. It is in german language but thanks to Lightrider the english translation is just some post above.


For instance i changed the wire diameter at 0.3 mm and it gives only 8.6 watt against 1047 watt for a 1mm diameter wire, just for fun

hope this helps

good luck at all :)

Laurent
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 16, 2011, 11:43:24 AM
Thanks to all for computer help and advice .@Woopy . I have emailed prof Turtur with some questions and am awaiting a reply . Among these questions is magnetic material and pole orientation , so hopefully we will soon know . If this thing works , and I am pretty well convinced by his earlier experiments , the main problems I foresee are these . I believe that it will be relatively easy to make a self runner with no load . An executive toy , if you like . The real problems will start when you add a load . If the load is a simple resistor , it will change resistance as it heats up ,enough to upset the parameters of the device , and break synchronisation . The probable solution would be some form of microcontroller to monitor things and make adjustments as needed . It is even possible that a working model with a varying load will need a small variable speed DC motor on the shaft to accelerate or decelerate the magnet as needed.But all this technology is proven and relatively cheap .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Feb2006 on February 16, 2011, 12:02:08 PM
I think the "ls" parameter is meant to be the length where magnetic field cuts cylindrical coil.
The thickness of magnet.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 16, 2011, 03:50:20 PM
The whole setup is quite critical but with the default parameter set, Turtur gave us a 'realistic' model. Wire diameter is the one that should be chosen a realistic value.
You can obtain much more output, as you showed, but then you need superconducting wire.
Some parameter combinations will not give you any output, as you showed with some of your settings. It's all about finetuning into realistic values here.

@neptune,
You can use the program and the parameter file to change the magnet dimensions and see whether you can find your desired outcome. It's pretty simple, you don't need to be a computer wizzerd.



@ teslaalset,

"I don't know about the 'realistic' model..."

di => {di:=spool diameter, m} (this is NOT the wire diameter {Dd:=wire diameter, m} OR wire conductivity of cupper)

When we put:

(di) = 0.70m => 88825909 Kw
(di) = 0.71m => 0.01 Kw

This meen, when the coil diameter = 0.7 m (27.559") we have an output of 88000000 Kw AND with the coil ONLY 0.01m (0.394") bigger we get 0.01 Kw ... this make no sense to me.

"...finetuning into realistic values here..." a coil of 0.7m is big, agree, BUT IT'S NOT a un-realistic values. (like 5m and more would probably be)

And what about "superconducting wire" ? It's not about superconducting parameter but about the size (diameter) of the coil only.... this don't influence, from what i understand, any "superconducting" behavior...



I'm not sure to understand you, you're probably good in superconductivity field, not me ... could you explain how superconductivity is at stake in this program ... thanks.



LightRider


PS.: you can get any type of result, if a program is poorly designed or if the approximation done in the progam is unknown to the users... you can finetune as much as you want...  but first you have to know the program limite"
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: teslaalset on February 16, 2011, 03:58:21 PM


@ teslaalset,

"I don't know about the 'realistic' model..."

di => {di:=spool diameter, m} (this is NOT the wire diameter {Dd:=wire diameter, m} OR wire conductivity of cupper)

When we put:

(di) = 0.70m => 88825909 Kw
(di) = 0.71m => 0.01 Kw

This meen, when the coil diameter = 0.7 m (27.559") we have an output of 88000000 Kw AND with the coil ONLY 0.01m (0.394") bigger we get 0.01 Kw ... this make no sense to me.

"...finetuning into realistic values here..." a coil of 0.7m is big, agree, BUT IT'S NOT a un-realistic values. (like 5m and more would probably be)

And what about "superconducting wire" ? It's not about superconducting parameter but about the size (diameter) of the coil only.... this don't influence, from what i understand, any "superconducting" behavior...



I'm not sure to understand you, you're probably good in superconductivity field, not me ... could you explain how superconductivity is at stake in this program ... thanks.



LightRider

@LightRider,

My main issue with 'realistic models' is that copper wire does have a certain ohmic resistance.
If you apply too many KW in a device, the copper wire will be destroyed because part of the many KW will be used to heat up the copper wire.
I mentioned super conductive wires because when you cool down an aluminum wire below 1.2 degrees Kelvin, the wire becomes super conductive and loose all of its ohmic resistance (resistance is ZERO!).

Besides, I don't think that the applied magnet (with a diameter of 3.9 cm) in combination with a coil of 0.7 meters will generate 88825909 KW, simply because the magnetic fields that cross the coil winding will in that case be too weak.

So, the model looks nice but I doubt whether you can use it with all kind of desired dimensions.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: teslaalset on February 16, 2011, 04:44:21 PM
Here's the field strength profile of a 4cm N52 NdFeB type magnet in air.
You can see that around approximately 3 times the diameter the field strength is almost completely gone.

(the purple circle is the actual magnet)
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 16, 2011, 06:46:43 PM
Here's the field strength profile of a 4cm N52 NdFeB type magnet in air.
You can see that around approximately 3 times the diameter the field strength is almost completely gone.

(the purple circle is the actual magnet)

Thanks teslaalset, understand better what you meant.
LightRider
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 16, 2011, 09:40:29 PM
Still waiting for info from the Prof , who is a busy man .I have been doing some research on the feasibility of the rotating magnet . A quick look on Ebay shows few disc shaped neo magnets of suitable size  .A nd if price is proportional to volume , a suitable size would probably cost £100 .Smaller disc magnets that are available lack the central hole and are generally not diametrically magnetised . Drilling a hole with conventional machine tools is next to impossible . The material is brittle , and can burn fiercely giving off toxic fumes . If the material MUST be neo , we are looking at custom made magnets with high cost , long waits , and possibly minimum quantities .
          What are the alternatives . I do not know if other magnetic materials have the necessary field strength . Ceramic magnets might do , but are not readily available .Weaker still and expensive is silver steel .
           Question . Is  it possible to de-magnetise/remagnetise a ceramic magnet ,as found in the magnetron of a microwave oven?
           One other possibility . curved neo magnets are/were available for making a wind generater from a ACmotor . You could bolt 2 of these on a steel core .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: LightRider on February 17, 2011, 12:30:42 AM
Still waiting for info from the Prof , who is a busy man .I have been doing some research on the feasibility of the rotating magnet . A quick look on Ebay shows few disc shaped neo magnets of suitable size  .A nd if price is proportional to volume , a suitable size would probably cost £100 .Smaller disc magnets that are available lack the central hole and are generally not diametrically magnetised . Drilling a hole with conventional machine tools is next to impossible . The material is brittle , and can burn fiercely giving off toxic fumes . If the material MUST be neo , we are looking at custom made magnets with high cost , long waits , and possibly minimum quantities .
          What are the alternatives . I do not know if other magnetic materials have the necessary field strength . Ceramic magnets might do , but are not readily available .Weaker still and expensive is silver steel .
           Question . Is  it possible to de-magnetise/remagnetise a ceramic magnet ,as found in the magnetron of a microwave oven?
           One other possibility . curved neo magnets are/were available for making a wind generater from a ACmotor . You could bolt 2 of these on a steel core .


Hi neptune,

Magnetization diametrically/Axially is more an options than a "custom" magnet...

A custom magnet "the shape" is high cost because they need to compact the powder into the shape you want and for that they need to make mold (matrix)... mold = $$$... but the direction of magnetization is a very simple thing for manufacturers to change.

LightRider

( http://www.kjmagnetics.com/magdir.asp )
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: woopy on February 17, 2011, 12:47:07 AM
Hi Neptune

As i have a diametricaly neomag but very small diameter , 1.5 cm diameter per 1.5 cm length  and probably around 1.3 Tesla .
I made the calculation on a possible coil with 0.3 mm diameter wire ( that i have in my workshop )

I wounded a coil with 800 turns and see the pix , i wonder if prof Turtur could give an advice for the continous of this experiment, because the soft gives about 77 watt output , but as LIGHTRIDER noticed the soft gives very different results per very tiny differences in the datas.

hope this helps

laurent
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on February 17, 2011, 01:24:28 AM
Hi All,

I've converted Prof TurTur code from Pascal over to Octave. I'm having one issue with the code. I've run through it dozen's of times but I'm not getting the same values back on the simulation part with the same values that the professor used. I do remember when I programmed in Delphi/Pascal for database applications I had issues with formulas having to be re-arranged when converting to C/C++. That may be it but I would like a new set of eyes to look through the code maybe I missed something obvious.

This is a straight copy of his code. I see a lot of places that could use optimization and structure but refrained just to get the original values working first. With a better structure for the sim we should be able to plot a 3D graph of say x=magnet size vs y=coil size z=watt output instead of manually running the sim for each value change.

Software I'm using for those who want to play with the code:

Open Source Octave (Matlab like clone)
http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/

GUI Octave for IDE front end under windows
https://sites.google.com/site/guioctave/
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: teslaalset on February 17, 2011, 09:36:49 AM
Deleted
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 17, 2011, 11:45:30 AM
As so often happens ,a simple device turns out not to be so simple after all . I read on another forum[ I cant remember where] that someone else reported similar problems with this computer programme in that small changes in parameters cause illogical large changes in results . The prof promised to look at this , but it may be a month before he has time . I feel that it is the software that is at fault , not the underlying theory of the machine . I feel that it would be difficult to reach a successful build without the software . There may be others who can sort this . If not , we have waited thousands of years for this , what is another month?
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 17, 2011, 07:03:04 PM
@Woopy . As I said , direct help and advice from the prof is unlikely in the immediate future . One factor which will influence how easy success will be is this .Is the magnet speed of 6000 RPM critical , or can the system be tuned at a different frequency . We can answer this question by looking at the computer program . The big question is , is RPM one of the parameters that can be changed in the program? If it is , the task becomes easier . We can adjust RPM to suit whatever is the resonant frequency of the tuned circuit . On reflection I have realised also that having the shaft inside a tube that passes between the windings is unlikely to influence results , because these shaft tubes are not in the part of the winding near the poles , where the action occurs . I feel that it is important to build a self runner before worrying about adding a load . Any info I get from the Prof will be passed on immediately .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: woopy on February 17, 2011, 11:19:11 PM
@Woopy . As I said , direct help and advice from the prof is unlikely in the immediate future . One factor which will influence how easy success will be is this .Is the magnet speed of 6000 RPM critical , or can the system be tuned at a different frequency . We can answer this question by looking at the computer program . The big question is , is RPM one of the parameters that can be changed in the program? If it is , the task becomes easier . We can adjust RPM to suit whatever is the resonant frequency of the tuned circuit . On reflection I have realised also that having the shaft inside a tube that passes between the windings is unlikely to influence results , because these shaft tubes are not in the part of the winding near the poles , where the action occurs . I feel that it is important to build a self runner before worrying about adding a load . Any info I get from the Prof will be passed on immediately .

Hi Neptune

yes you can modify the RPM  of the magnet "at will " in the program.
So i did for my coil simulation to get 77 watt output. I spin the magnet at 3000 rpm and it goes (see pix in red )

But i can not go further so long i don't know if the magnet is diametricaly magnetised or not.  So i hope that Prof Turtur will answer on this point.

and good luck at all

Laurent
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: haithar on February 18, 2011, 12:08:01 AM
Hi All,

I've converted Prof TurTur code from Pascal over to Octave. I'm having one issue with the code. I've run through it dozen's of times but I'm not getting the same values back on the simulation part with the same values that the professor used. I do remember when I programmed in Delphi/Pascal for database applications I had issues with formulas having to be re-arranged when converting to C/C++. That may be it but I would like a new set of eyes to look through the code maybe I missed something obvious.

This is a straight copy of his code. I see a lot of places that could use optimization and structure but refrained just to get the original values working first. With a better structure for the sim we should be able to plot a 3D graph of say x=magnet size vs y=coil size z=watt output instead of manually running the sim for each value change.

Software I'm using for those who want to play with the code:

Open Source Octave (Matlab like clone)
http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/

GUI Octave for IDE front end under windows
https://sites.google.com/site/guioctave/
Hi,
i created a c++ version of his algorithm and mailed Prof. Turtur with some questions i had.
It also has a matlab exporter, if the syntax is the same for Octave it would probably help you. Write me a PM if you want the source code.

here is a picture, the german headlines are english in the current version.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: tomd000 on February 18, 2011, 01:01:51 AM
It seems that one of Dr. Stiffler's systems is in prototype production - http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3934-high-voltage-thin-air-69.html
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 18, 2011, 02:51:11 PM
@ Woopy .Thanks for the info re RPM .That , to me is very reassuring . However we have to realise that lower RPM = lower frequency =Larger values of L and C . In my mind there can be no doubt that the magnet is diametrically magnetised , because this is shown in two separate diagrams by Prof Turtur . Why would you therefore be in any doubt ? Is the magnet shown in your photograph diametrically magnetised ?I have already emailed the prof with this question and as soon as he replies I will post his answer .
          These days I can not do much in the way of a build due to health issues . I keep getting a few ideas though ,and sooner or later I might say something which will help someone .A cheap way round the magnet problem would be to embed two cubic neo magnets in a wheel cast from epoxy resin . Possible issues would be , magnets would try to escape at very high RPM . Further into development it might be possible to have multiple magnets/poles ,leading to higher frequencies at lower RPM .   I believe higher frequencies = greater output . 
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 18, 2011, 09:45:01 PM
For anyone contemplating a build ,as we have discussed earlier , there is the problem of the coil and the shaft needing to occupy the same space . Earlier I showed how to overcome this using a short shaft . However for those who wish to use a longer shaft running through the coil here is a suggestion . Google  Bedini-Cole window motor ". I You should easily find pictures and diagrams that show the shaft arrangement , which can be adapted for the current device .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on February 21, 2011, 01:37:29 AM
Hi All,

I've modified the Octave code with help from Haithar although I'm still getting strange readings. This formula is very touchy because it calculates off itself each proceeding value in a 10000row*6column matrix. One small value change creates a cascading amplified effect of any error. I've attached the latest code for those who want to try it. If you see any errors or fixes let me know.

@Neptune,

Sorry to hear of your health. Your input is greatly appreciated you never know what phrase will spark a great idea. You are right in the simulation increasing the 100rpm speed to 200 greatly increases the output.

@Laurent,

I'm pretty sure the magnet is diametric. If you place a diametric magnet on a strip of metal it should have resistance when you try to roll it from one pole to another. If it's not diametric N/S on the top/bottom it should roll with little resistance on the same strip.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 21, 2011, 08:03:04 PM
@DreamThinkBuild .Thanks for the kind words .My big problem is I have gone blind in one eye ,and the other one has a cateract . But they say that in the land of the blind , the one eyed man is king,so no worries .
          I took another look at a bike dynamo today . It is years since I stripped one down . The magnet used to be a steel cylinder , but later ones are a ferrite type material , and possibly by now , neodymium . At the top of the device is a "neck" about 2inches long and a half inch in diameter .This contains the shaft and bearings . If you removed everything except the magnet , shaft and bearings you would have the basis of a small device , but the outside diameter of the coil would be limited to about 4 inches .
, or it would cover the pulley . I cant help thinking you could use thedynamo [alternator ]  just as it is and connect a suitable cap across it . These dynamos are very inexpensive[$10 ?] to buy .The big problem is to determine the resonant frequency of the resultant parallel tuned circuit .Does anyone have a circuit for a simple LC oscillator circuit without a coil tap that will work at about 100Hz?
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: haithar on February 22, 2011, 09:35:32 PM
I wrote you a personal message neptune, you can test my C++ version with easy user interface for Turturs algorithm, it's not yet ready for public but you can use it without any problems.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 23, 2011, 07:49:29 PM
@Haithar .Many thanks for that I will certainly give it a try . A couple of other thoughts while I am here . My electronic knowledge such as it is , was the result of being a Radio Amateur back in the 1980s . I used to love playing with home made circuits , especially RF oscillators and tuned circuits . I used a grid dip oscillator to determine the frequency of tuned circuits , but of course , that was at much higher frequencies than we are dealing with here . Another way was to make the circuit oscillate , and listen to it on a radio receiver . Here we are talking about low audio frequencies . I mentioned in an earlier post the possibility of listening to the oscillations using a coupling coil and headphones . Here in the UK the frequency of the electric supply is 50 Hz ,and probably in most of Europe .So if you listen to the mains , 100Hz is a note exactly one octave higher .Also , frequency counters are very cheap now , and even some multimeters have a frequency counter working up to 20 Mhz,
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: caru on February 24, 2011, 05:24:59 AM
That's a rotary lifter.
Don't you see the sharp tips at the edges of the can?
It's just propelled by ion wind man.

Turtur also did the same experiment in the vacuum, using oil instead of water... doesn't this exclude the "ion wind" explanation?
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: caru on February 24, 2011, 05:31:57 AM
yes you can modify the RPM  of the magnet "at will " in the program.
So i did for my coil simulation to get 77 watt output. I spin the magnet at 3000 rpm and it goes (see pix in red )

I don't think you can choose actual magnet RPM. That's only the initial constant velocity given to the magnet.
For instance, you can see that by applying 6,000 RPM initially, it then goes up to 10,000 RPM (look in the output .dat file, in the 5th column you can see rad/s).
Please let me know if this doesn't make sense and I'm completely wrong.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: caru on February 24, 2011, 05:35:18 AM
6 Will varying the resistance of the load cause detuning and stop the machine .

I don't think so, since the device should be load-following, eg: adjust itself to the load by varying its own resonant frequency... but let's see what Dr. Turtur has to say about this.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: haithar on February 24, 2011, 12:59:01 PM
I don't think you can choose actual magnet RPM. That's only the initial constant velocity given to the magnet.
For instance, you can see that by applying 6,000 RPM initially, it then goes up to 10,000 RPM (look in the output .dat file, in the 5th column you can see rad/s).
Please let me know if this doesn't make sense and I'm completely wrong.
Yes that's how i understood it too.
You bring the magnet up to the initial rpm you determined in the software and then flick a switch and let the thing run.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on February 25, 2011, 07:26:28 PM
Re bicycle dynamos . On stripping a modern bike dynamo [which I picked up on the road!] I was disappointed to find that the magnet has more than 2 poles , and so is not suitable for use in this experiment . You can test this without stripping by simply counting the cogs in the cogging effect . Oh well , back to the drawing board .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: haithar on March 04, 2011, 02:48:47 PM
I have uploaded my software for everyone to use and try things out: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10467
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on March 06, 2011, 05:56:46 PM
I recently received an email from Prof Turtur . He answered some of my questions . He confirms the shape of the coil as a disc shape , small height large diameter . He recommends a neo magnet because of its high field strength . He says it can be as small as 8cms diameter . He has concerns however about it flying apart at the necessary speed of 50 ,000 to100,000 RPM . He talks about plastic encapsulation .He says the only way to start it is with a starter motor at 30- to 50 ,000 RPM , and suggests an overrun clutch  , so when the device starts due to correct tuning , it will accelerate . Total capacitance needs to be 10 to 100 microfarads , capable of being varied . { could be a combination of fixed and variable caps ] Cap needs to withstand 1- to2,000 volts . Hope this helps .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Super God on March 07, 2011, 09:22:45 AM
I recently received an email from Prof Turtur . He answered some of my questions . He confirms the shape of the coil as a disc shape , small height large diameter . He recommends a neo magnet because of its high field strength . He says it can be as small as 8cms diameter . He has concerns however about it flying apart at the necessary speed of 50 ,000 to100,000 RPM . He talks about plastic encapsulation .He says the only way to start it is with a starter motor at 30- to 50 ,000 RPM , and suggests an overrun clutch  , so when the device starts due to correct tuning , it will accelerate . Total capacitance needs to be 10 to 100 microfarads , capable of being varied . { could be a combination of fixed and variable caps ] Cap needs to withstand 1- to2,000 volts . Hope this helps .

Did he mention the inductance of the coil?
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: neptune on March 07, 2011, 03:27:28 PM
@Super God. He does not state the inductance of the coil .However , the tuned circuit needs to resonate at 30,000 RPM = 500 cycles/sec [Hz]. coil inductance depends on capacitance . I would choose a capictance near the upper limit of what he says , as this then =less inductance =less wire=less parasitic resistance =higher Q factor .Hope this helps .
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: Super God on March 08, 2011, 10:29:04 PM
I would assume the speed of the magnet has to be incredibly fast, so that when the field propagates it is at a different state at the coil than when it left the magnet.
Title: Re: 1 kW zero point energy @ Peswiki.com
Post by: teslaalset on March 09, 2011, 02:19:43 PM
There were some clear doubts whether the model is correct as presented by Turtur in his original article due to too low sample rates.
E.g. as indicated here: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=738.msg11732#msg11732

Looking into this potential flaw, I agree that the sample rate of the original simulation is quite poor.
Attached the sample rate of the last few periods of the energy in the external load resistor.

In addition I performed a simulation where I increased the number of samples to 10 fold and at the same time decrease the initial rotation speed of the magnet.
The results are attached as third and fourth picture.

What can be observed from this initial experiment with increased sample rate is that power is increasing.
Due to the limit of the maximum allowed nr. of samples calculations stopped in the still increasing power period.
I've asked Haithar, who developed the software that includes Turtur's algorithm, whether it is possible to increase the max. nr. of samples.
He will have a look at this, but indicated this is not easy to implement.