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Author Topic: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?  (Read 44584 times)

Offline spinn_MP

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2011, 09:32:25 PM »
The point is the following: thermodynamics only considers the energy of the ball itself, that is, how much energy a ball has at a given moment. When lifting the ball at the moment it reaches height h it not only has energy of position mgh but also has kinetic energy (1/2)mv^2. The ball has it, right? Thus, the ball at height h in this case has energy mgh + (1/2)mv^2. If we decide to keep it at height h, have it there at rest, the ball now will only have energy mgh and if we then let it go back to the floor only that energy mgh will be recovered. The kinetic energy (1/2)mv^2 will not be recovered. There is nothing that can comensate for the kinetic energy (1/2)mv^2 which was lost by the ball. That's a violation of CoE in purely classical terms, inherent in theoretical mechanics. Is that clearer?

I'm not sure for how long will people here tolerate such a BS.

It's quite obvious that this OmniBus doesn't have a clue what he's been preaching here and elsewhere, for years.
It's sad...

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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2011, 09:38:38 PM »
Obviously what is not to be tolerated by people is gibberish as that in the above post. That person impudently continues to clutter the thread with his nonsense and someone should put a stop to that.

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2011, 10:14:39 PM »
The kinetic energy (1/2)mv^2 will not be recovered. There is nothing that can comensate for the kinetic energy (1/2)mv^2 which was lost by the ball. That's a violation of CoE in purely classical terms, inherent in theoretical mechanics. Is that clearer?

OK, if you can picture the ball raising up. This time I will give it some velocity while it's in your hand. As long as your hand is pushing it at a specific velocity it has that momentum; but as soon as your hand places the ball down on say a shelf at a higher level, the momentum is gone because the hand no longer is pushing it at a velocity. This doesn't violate the laws of physics at all. Your hand was the force that kept the momentum going. Now the force is gone.

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2011, 10:14:39 PM »
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Offline brian334

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2011, 10:27:12 PM »
The topic is - is there proof gravity can not be a energy source.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2011, 10:29:18 PM »
Again, it is the energy of the ball itself (not of anything else, hand and such) that is considered when pondering about CoE. Undoubtedly, when you're lifting the ball at bring it to height h the ball does have potential energy there (at height h) equal to mgh but it has also a kinetic energy there (at height h) equal to (1/2)mv^2. That is undeniable. The ball itself, not anything else, has under these conditions energy mgh + (1/2)mv^2 the that height h. Now, you hve decided ahead of time that when you lift the ball at height h you'll freeze your hand there (at height h). It is indeed what you are doing but, again, we're interested in what happens with the energy of the ball frozen at that height h. Now, being frozen at height h has no more kinetic energy (1/2)mv^2 simply bevause you (mind you, 'you') have stopped it from moving. Thus, the ball at height h only has energy mgh to recover. The kinetic energy (1/2)mv^2 is lost. It cannot be recovered. CoE is violated.

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2011, 10:29:18 PM »
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Offline spinn_MP

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2011, 10:42:18 PM »
Again, it is the energy of the ball itself (not of anything else, hand and such) that is considered when pondering about CoE. Undoubtedly, when you're lifting the ball at bring it to height h the ball does have potential energy there (at height h) equal to mgh but it has also a kinetic energy there (at height h) equal to (1/2)mv^2. That is undeniable. The ball itself, not anything else, has under these conditions energy mgh + (1/2)mv^2 the that height h. Now, you hve decided ahead of time that when you lift the ball at height h you'll freeze your hand there (at height h). It is indeed what you are doing but, again, we're interested in what happens with the energy of the ball frozen at that height h. Now, being frozen at height h has no more kinetic energy (1/2)mv^2 simply bevause you (mind you, 'you') have stopped it from moving. Thus, the ball at height h only has energy mgh to recover. The kinetic energy (1/2)mv^2 is lost. It cannot be recovered. CoE is violated.

This is - simply, unbelievable.

Try to get some help, please.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2011, 10:51:01 PM »
Isn't there someone to take care of the spammer @spinn_MP? His impudent disruptions of multiple threads with sheer gibberish should be noticed by someone who can free the forum from nuisance such as @spinner_MP's clutter.

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2011, 10:51:01 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2011, 10:53:00 PM »
The topic is - is there proof gravity can not be a energy source.

That question was already answered. Gravity is not an energy source by definition. Gravity is force. Force is not an energy source.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2011, 11:41:39 PM »
Brian33 .. Force = mass x acceleration.

Gravity Force = mass x 'g' ... where 'g' ... = acceleration due to gravity, approx 9.80665 Newton's.

So, gravity is an acceleration, or a field potential, where an object with mass within the field will experience an acceleration, providing it has Potential Energy [Pe = mgh] of Position & is free to displace
.

Once an object is free to move [unrestrained] it loses Pe & gains Kinetic Energy [Ke = 1/2mv^2] - at any height after release the amount of Pe lost [in Joules, which is Newton meters] is exactly the same as the amount of Ke [in Joules] it gained - so a Potential is converted into Kinetic Movement.

Where this becomes relevant to your question is in applying mechanics - Work Done [a physics term] = Force x Distance [displacement] - WD is also measured in Joules [Nm].

This means that Pe; Ke; & Work Done are measured in the same units & are therefore interchangeable [these are Energy equivalents]

In short : ENERGY IS THE CAPACITY FOR WORK !

So, if we know how much Pe a mass has, or how much Ke a mass has, we know how much Capacity for Work it also has [all in Joules].

---------------------------------

So, to summarise, gravity is an acceleration [m/s^2] - but combine that with a mass & we can determine a Force - Force x Displacement = Work Done [Capacity to do Work].

If we do the Work first [i.e. expend energy] & raise a mass in a gravity field to give it Pe of position it can return the same amount of Work back to us, assuming no losses for simplicity.

Does that make gravity Energy ? - No, it is an acceleration that needs a mass to be raised by expending Energy [Input Energy] from something else before it can give back that same Energy [Output Energy].

---------------------------------------------

So, we need to raise a mass - we fling a ball skywards until it reaches top of climb - we expended a large force for a short period then momentum carries it upward until it can not attain anymore vertical height - take a snap shot there when it is suspended - it has Pe only equal to the Input Energy we gave it to rise to there - it begins to fall & at the moment it reaches the height we began to hoist it from it has the same Ke we gave it to start with, assuming no losses.

That's why gravity is described as a Conservative Force - it can't give back more energy than it received.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 12:15:35 AM by fletcher »

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2011, 11:41:39 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2011, 12:12:47 AM »
This has already been explained a numner of times and therefore it need not be repeated over and over again in bulkier and bulkier posts.

One thing, however, shouldn't happen. No further confusion should be instilled in his already confused enough wqy of understanding elementary physics, namely, acceleration should not be equated with gravity. Gravity is not acceleration as any force is not acceleration. If it were acceleration then we will not have the use for the term 'force' or 'gravity' for that matter. And , it is obvious that acceleration is not a substitute for gravity because an apple at rest on a table is acted upon by gravity but it isn't observed to experience acceleration. The most one can say if one wants to mention acceleration and force in the same sentence is to say that when a nody of mass m is moving its acceleration can be expressed as the ratio F/m. That, however, is trivial and one need not dwell into trivialities to overexplain a simple question (with the aim to appear very learned) thus confusing the student.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2011, 12:23:40 AM »
Brian33 - an apple resting on a table IS experiencing a constant acceleration due to gravity of 9.80665 N's [assumes at earths surface].

It is just unable to move vertically, but the acceleration 'g' is there always - since it can't move vertically it doesn't have any Ke or ability to do Work - it does have Pe but that is unrealised until the table is moved out of the way etc & it can move downward.

N.B.1. these fundamental equations are based on Newton's Laws & Newton mechanics & hold true for 100% of the time we discuss things like masses on wheels etc.

N.B.2. note that when discussing Gravity Force we have to introduce MASS into the equation & have it multiplied by acceleration to get Newton's of Force.

e.g. to find the number of N's that a 10 kg mass has we use ... F = m x a where a = 'g'

therefore m = F/a  => 10 kg = F / 9.80665 = 98.0665 N's.

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2011, 12:23:40 AM »
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Offline camelherder49

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2011, 12:26:44 AM »
As an analogy, there is a way to return the gravitational fuel (water)
in the instance of Niagara Falls, back to its' original starting position
using far less input energy than is being created, with a pseudo "sun" process handling the water cycle circulation.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2011, 12:35:56 AM »
This has already been explained a numner of times and therefore it need not be repeated over and over again in bulkier and bulkier posts.

One thing, however, shouldn't happen. No further confusion should be instilled in his already confused enough wqy of understanding elementary physics, .. snip ..

We agree on one thing omnibust.

Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2011, 10:11:25 AM »
That question was already answered. Gravity is not an energy source by definition. Gravity is force. Force is not an energy source.

4 statements above, 2 false assertions due to ignorance or stupidity.

There is energy in the gravity field. Gravity is not force.
When two bodies attract one each other, and accelerate, energy is taken from their gravitational field, whose energy density decreases while the field redistributes in space, changing of topology due to the bodies movement.
Gravity field energy density is: D = g²/(8*pi*G).
It is the same as the energy density of an electric field (1/2*epsilon0 * E2) or magnetic field (1/(2*mu0) * B2). It is a general law when fields are the source of 1/r2 forces.


Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Is there proof gravity can not be a energy source?
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2011, 12:35:51 PM »
The topic is - is there proof gravity can not be a energy source.
4 statements above, 2 false assertions due to ignorance or stupidity.

There is energy in the gravity field. Gravity is not force.
When two bodies attract one each other, and accelerate, energy is taken from their gravitational field, whose energy density decreases while the field redistributes in space, changing of topology due to the bodies movement.
Gravity field energy density is: D = g²/(8*pi*G).
It is the same as the energy density of an electric field (1/2*epsilon0 * E2) or magnetic field (1/(2*mu0) * B2). It is a general law when fields are the source of 1/r2 forces.

So the question is answered.



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