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Author Topic: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7  (Read 58218 times)

Offline broli

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2011, 11:03:44 AM »
Found a local distributor for black painted steel strapping. They deliver all over europe:

http://www.recypack.co.uk/_london/index.php?search=steel&page=search&submit=Zoek#

Although it's hard to make out the dimension of the coil it seems to be rather very cheap.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2011, 11:03:44 AM »

Offline neptune

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2011, 05:00:27 PM »
@broli . Thanks for at least considering my request re illustration . The black steel strapping can often be found in skips [dumpsters] outside warehouses , construction sites and on docks and wharves . Anywhere heavy goods are strapped to pallets .

Offline teslaalset

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2011, 05:53:31 PM »
Hey Broli,

Excellent work being done here!
Sorry for not stepping in earlier, but I am too occupied with the stuff of Thane for the moment, as you are aware of.

Just a quick question/remark on your FEMM simulations:
I checked your lua file and something wondered me.
If you move one element (in either of the 4 four loops), you only obtain the force of the moved element.
But in my view, when you move an element, you should also check the forces on the other elements in my view, since they likely are influenced as well due to that movement.
I'll try to post a modified lua if I can find sufficient time, to see if this is valid or not.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2011, 05:53:31 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2011, 05:59:34 PM »
Hey Broli,

Excellent work being done here!
Sorry for not stepping in earlier, but I am too occupied with the stuff of Thane for the moment, as you are aware of.

Just a quick question/remark on your FEMM simulations:
I checked your lua file and something wondered me.
If you move one element (in either of the 4 four loops), you only obtain the force of the moved element.
But in my view, when you move an element, you should also check the forces on the other elements in my view, since they likely are influenced as well due to that movement.
I'll try to post a modified lua if I can find sufficient time, to see if this is valid or not.

I move either the magnets or cores simultaneously. The force on one magnet should be equal and opposite to the other magnet as the system is symmetrical. Also there's no need to look at the forces on the magnets when the cores are moving or vice versa, because when one is moving the other is kept stationary.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 06:37:13 PM by broli »

Offline teslaalset

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2011, 06:11:37 PM »
I move either the magnets or cores simultaneously. The force on one magnet should be equal and opposite to the other magnet as the system is symmetrical. Also there's no need to look at the forces on the magnets when the other cores are moving or vice versa, because when one is moving the other is kept stationary.

Doesn't keeping elements stationary when forces are present also consume energy?

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2011, 06:11:37 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2011, 06:36:40 PM »
Doesn't keeping elements stationary when forces are present also consume energy?

Work or energy is the integral of force over a path. If you don't move at all then there's no work being done.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2011, 11:21:18 PM »
In short: Consider all MOVING parts when calculating the energy.

VERY IMPORTANT WHEN USING FEMM!!
What really bugs FEMM some times are the "working space". I FEMM you have to determine a working space where you can put your experiment inside. The smaller this space are compared to the object being experimented with, the more inaccurate the readings are.

I do allways place a toroide of steel around the experiment, just to make sure most magnetic fields are taken into account. If not doing so, FEMM will "hide" some magnetic flux "outside" the working space from the equation when calculating forces, and therefor the results will not sum up correctly. You end up in sometimes considerably more output than input.

So, broli, try to either increase the working space considerably (which takes more proccessing time), or add a thick toroidal steel core around the experiment. Add a space of "Air" outside the toroide also. Now your results, if taken into account ALL moving parts, ALL in its respectively directions, you will probably end up in COP 1.

Because, a magnetic force, provided by a magnet, will ALLWAYS attract to the steel just as much as the steel are attracted to the magnet - they are both in the same boat, so to speak. Therfor magnetism, just as gravity, cannot be used as a source of energy. Both are conservative forces. A force isn't energy.

Vidar

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2011, 11:21:18 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2011, 11:40:28 PM »
In short: Consider all MOVING parts when calculating the energy.

VERY IMPORTANT WHEN USING FEMM!!
What really bugs FEMM some times are the "working space". I FEMM you have to determine a working space where you can put your experiment inside. The smaller this space are compared to the object being experimented with, the more inaccurate the readings are.

I do allways place a toroide of steel around the experiment, just to make sure most magnetic fields are taken into account. If not doing so, FEMM will "hide" some magnetic flux "outside" the working space from the equation when calculating forces, and therefor the results will not sum up correctly. You end up in sometimes considerably more output than input.

So, broli, try to either increase the working space considerably (which takes more proccessing time), or add a thick toroidal steel core around the experiment. Add a space of "Air" outside the toroide also. Now your results, if taken into account ALL moving parts, ALL in its respectively directions, you will probably end up in COP 1.

Because, a magnetic force, provided by a magnet, will ALLWAYS attract to the steel just as much as the steel are attracted to the magnet - they are both in the same boat, so to speak. Therfor magnetism, just as gravity, cannot be used as a source of energy. Both are conservative forces. A force isn't energy.

Vidar

This depends on your boundary conditions. I've used the mixed BC just like in that famous FEMM tutorial, 1/uo*R*mm where R is the radius of the boundary in mm. The calculation of force is quite far from this boundary especially for the magnets. You can actually see the paths for the force calculation.

And again calculating force or "work" on a stationary object is meaningless. I have no clue why this is even mentioned.

The simulation files have been posted, if you think there's something wrong with it I'd like to see your "corrected" results. It's easy to criticize, but contributing is something else.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2011, 11:42:44 PM »
@Low-Q, restrain from offering advise on matters you have limited or no understanding. @broli's calculations are correct, the efficiency (not COP) is indeed greater than 1 and it is supported by experiment. The problem is that the OU is so low (as low, if not lower, as in most of the studied constructions) that even the best workmanship would hardly end up
 in a working device. Some new concept, a real breakthrough is needed which would bring about greater OU needed for making a real working device.

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2011, 11:42:44 PM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2011, 09:57:23 AM »
...
This is not your forum, this is not a public place and your opinion is meaningless.
...
If you keep ignoring the polite request I'll ask for moderation of this thread and shut your anti progressive negative bullshit by force.

Therefore I presume overunity.com is Broli's forum!  ;D. Your request was not "polite" but insulting. Keep cool, guy.
Femm uses the laws of physics to modelize the systems. Thus if COPs>1 appear, they are software bugs (like with wm2d or ltspice, it is easy to build perpetual machines). Otherwise there is a hidden energy source which has to be identified. This forum is devoted to free energy in real life not in pious image.
We see in this thread useless designs with comments not supported by facts and observations, not even by theory, but very pretty cartoons (I don't deny the artistic side  :) ). It is the interest of experimenters to know it and not to waste time in cartoons with no future because based on flaws. One can have a different opinion, I respect different opinions, they must all be expressed, but mine too. May be you are not from a country of free speech. You should learn what it is.


Offline Omnibus

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2011, 10:12:21 AM »
The forum may not be @broli's own forum but the truth is it is infested with arrogant incompetents such as @exnihiloest. So what that femm uses the laws of physics to modelyze the system. As I have shown, the laws of standard physics taught in colleges and universities contains inherently violation of CoE, as I have already shown. This fact has been missed so far in theoretical physics but it desn't mean it isn't there. Therefore, there is nothing unusual for femm to uncover situations whereby OU shows itself. One such situation is the one studied by @broli and he deserves admirations and encouragement for that finding of his and not attacks by incompetents such as @exnihiloest.

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2011, 10:12:21 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2011, 11:55:25 PM »
At this point I will say that the energy gain exists when modeled in Maxwell 3D also. It's like the fields pushing against each other within the iron, exerts no force back into the magnets. The force needed to separate the iron when the magnets are close is greater than what is gained by moving the iron back to the magnets, but the energy gained from the separating magnets is still greater and in the end the process does show a large gain.
I also examined another modification (shown below) to this process by dividing the iron into two pieces and moving the iron apart in the same direction as the magnets would separate. Surprisingly, the iron already wants to separate when the magnets move into place and as the iron moves apart the magnets move apart with greater force which can be used to move the iron apart, which increases the force to move the magnets apart!
Something like a self starting separation that increases in force. After the magnets are separated, the iron will slide back to the opposing iron with no force and again the magnets can be moved back to center with no force to restart the event.

Offline fletcher

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2011, 12:53:02 AM »
Only a build will confirm the if the two different sim software results are accurate or not - two products showing the same or similar gain means either the sims have it right, which can be replicated in real world - OR - both sims are not sophisticated enough to model real world.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2011, 01:40:11 AM »
Like I said, the sims are correct in their OU conclusion because it coincides with the results from the experiment, as already seen.

Offline broli

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2011, 07:33:46 AM »
Thanks for your constructive contribution lumen.

This is a rather simple problem for such simulators which are used to accurately predict much more complex systems. It would defeat the purpose of simulating anything if these simulators couldn't predict such a simple system. To add insult to injury even vizimag shows the same behavior.

Again, we are talking about tens of joules in gained energy per complete cycle. on a palm sized setup, this is too enormous to just brush off as a "bug". Especially when experiments show similar behavior.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 08:51:21 AM by broli »

 

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