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Author Topic: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7  (Read 58353 times)

Offline broli

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2011, 02:58:32 PM »
In designing a practical version of this machine , much attention needs to be paid to the side bars . They need to be as light as possible consistant with performance .These bars need to move fast , and so heavy weight will cause problems with inertia and momentum . Either by calculation or experiment , their dimensions need to be minimised . A composite material , probably ferrite like in nature might serve . Is ferrite lighter than iron ? this would have the added benefit of eliminating eddy currents .

Yes this was on my mind, if we use cams there's a chance that the cores won't follow nicely at high speeds due to inertia. I thought of using springs to remedy this.

As for core material, I would use laminated iron, steel or even better silicon steel. These are easier to get or fabricate than large ferrite cores of the same dimensions. But indeed much heavier.

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2011, 02:58:32 PM »

Offline lumen

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2011, 03:07:25 PM »
I would think a crankshaft would be best for both the magnets and the bars. Time them using elliptical gearing for the best overlap in operation. Something like a stirling engine but with magnets!
This way all parts are locked together for both push and pull operation and can recover all forces of every component.
 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 06:29:49 PM by lumen »

Offline neptune

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2011, 03:47:41 PM »
Re core material .I have ofter thought that it would be possible to construct your own ferrite-like core . First you need a powder with magnetic properties , such as iron oxide , iron filings , or pulverised ferrite rods from old AM radios . Then you need a binding agent such as car body repair paste , epoxy resin , or possibly even plaster of Paris . Mix your materials , put it in a mould and allow to solidify . The resultant cores could be trimmed using glass paper if necessary . Going back to weight of cores , this is the same as using light weight valves of exotic materials in a fourstroke racing engine .

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2011, 03:47:41 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2011, 04:03:18 PM »
Re core material .I have ofter thought that it would be possible to construct your own ferrite-like core . First you need a powder with magnetic properties , such as iron oxide , iron filings , or pulverised ferrite rods from old AM radios . Then you need a binding agent such as car body repair paste , epoxy resin , or possibly even plaster of Paris . Mix your materials , put it in a mould and allow to solidify . The resultant cores could be trimmed using glass paper if necessary . Going back to weight of cores , this is the same as using light weight valves of exotic materials in a fourstroke racing engine .

To be honest I think you'll find that process to be truly hell. You'll have to spend a lot of time and potentially find out it doesn't meet the needs. If possible I would buy it ready made and save a lot of effort, time and even money.

Offline phoneboy

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2011, 04:38:22 PM »
@ broli, thanks for the suggestion, I have to wrap my mind around it and I'll make some mods to the design. A suggestion for the core, form my design I intended to use three large c8 sheet magnets http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=256 and heat them past their curie point.  In the course of reading about processing materials I came across microwave sintering, I don't know how well a microwave susceptor the magnets would be but if not you could surround them with magnetite powder (great susceptor) in a alumina brick surround, nuke them for while to demagnetize, and then grind them to shape.

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2011, 04:38:22 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2011, 01:47:53 AM »
I would think a crankshaft would be best for both the magnets and the bars. Time them using elliptical gearing for the best overlap in operation. Something like a stirling engine but with magnets!
This way all parts are locked together for both push and pull operation and can recover all forces of every component.

The problem of course is that there isn't any source of energy in the magnet-only design. Not like in an alpha Stirling.... in this case the energy source is the difference in temperature between the top and bottom endplates of the displacer cylinder. That is, the Stirling displacer is located in an area of energy flow. No energy flows from permanent magnets, sorry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYovJzmCLdw

Offline Omnibus

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2011, 02:19:33 AM »
In fact there is no need for an external source of energy because the motor is producing excess energy "out of nothing" from within. From @broli's data it is seen that, the output energy is about 1.15 times the input energy.

Now, that's a small OU but it's a matter of principle as far as violation of CoE is concerned. Science isn't interested in how small or how big is the OU. Even if OU were 1.0000000001 this motor violates CoE and produces excess energy "out of nothing".

That's the pivotal conclusion which adds the motor in question to a number of other motors violating CoE.

A completely separate question is whether or not one can use the produced excess energy for he purposes of a perpetuum mobile. That's an entirely engineering question having nothing at all to do with the fundamental problem of violating CoE. In this specific case the excess energy produced is relatively low and exceptional engineering skills and infrastructure are needed, beyond what almost anyone here can afford, to make a working self-sustaining device.  Therefore, conditions or constructions with greater excess energy are needed to be found out, which will make the manufacturing of a working self-sustaining device easier.

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2011, 02:19:33 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2011, 03:10:51 AM »
It is easy to see how the motion of the alpha stirling engine is almost what is needed and in fact may be close enough if timed out correctly. By using two cranks linked together with two elliptical gears, the motion could be made to be nearly square. Like the ends of the link arms following around a square block instead of the circular crank.

@Omnibus "the output energy is about 1.15 times the input energy" What is the input energy?

Offline Omnibus

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2011, 03:41:27 AM »
@lumen,

The input energy is the energy ewuivalent to the work needed to separate the magnets (observe the device in Butch's sense) plus the energy equivalent to the work needed to pull the cores apart. The enery obtained is equivalent to the work done when the magnets move towards each other spontaneously, attracting each other (the cores being apart) plus the energy equivalent to the work done when the cores close up.

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2011, 03:41:27 AM »
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Offline spinn_MP

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2011, 12:05:54 PM »
I would not trust FEMM or any other sim program, showing OU.

One of the main problems with Steorn's 2007 Kinetica fiasco (beside the lighting and doubters) was a FEMM program showing OU....

Offline neptune

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2011, 01:11:36 PM »
Omnibus makes the point that we have very little spare energy available , and the way forward is to either increase the available energy , or improve the engineering . The second option is the one available right now . I accept that a very high degree of craftsmanship is required , But on the other hand look at the work of Clanzer for example. There are also others of the same caliber . There are also some
excellent model engineers out there , and clock makers . Success will come from the combination of the right design and the right man to build it . The correct design will be a compromise , as always . Look at the work of Finsrud . Even if it is fake , you have got to admire the engineering . The correct design will have a minimum of moving parts , two or three max , even .if that means that the path of the moving cores is less than ideal .

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2011, 01:11:36 PM »
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Offline neptune

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2011, 01:25:03 PM »
A possible simple design .Imagine a wheel with a horizontal axis . near the perimeter is a magnet [one magnet in the simple version . more later .] Suspended above the wheel is another magnet . As the two magnets approach each other they attract . When they reach the cosest point , the core comes into play .The core consists of an iron channel [ a square tube with one side removed .] The open side of the channel is downwards . It is mounted on a pivoted arm and it drops down to cover the two magnets .It is controlled by a cam . The principle is a bit like the Roberts33 motor combined with the action of Bruce's "magnetic toy" shown on his you tube Chanel , but the channel of the magnetic toy is now inverted . There you go , only two moving parts .

Offline broli

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2011, 01:42:40 PM »
I would not trust FEMM or any other sim program, showing OU.

One of the main problems with Steorn's 2007 Kinetica fiasco (beside the lighting and doubters) was a FEMM program showing OU....

As far as I recall PM orbo shows an energy increase per cycle using a torque transducer, but this increase is in the mJ range so almost useless for practical purposes.

The sim I did is based on an experimental proof of concept that shows similar behavior. The energy gain per cycle is tens of J's which is very real and big.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2011, 02:37:07 PM »
Where is the FEMM program showing OU in Orbo? Also, can you give a link to Bruce's 'magnetic toy'?

Offline neptune

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Re: FEMM simulation showing COP 3 and 7
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2011, 05:38:02 PM »
@Omnibus remagnetic toy . I do not know how to create a link . Go to reply#
1 page one of this thread by Broli . There you will find a link to Bruces motor A3 . this link takes you to a Youtube page , and you will see the magnetic toy vid listed in the column on the right .

 

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