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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Butch LaFonte on January 25, 2011, 07:10:58 AM
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Break through!
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hi Butch,
you've got my attention.
Regards, Penno
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@Butch
Alright, I'll bite ~ what's the news? ???
truesearch
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Break through!
Translation:
Gimme some attention please.
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::)
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Break through!
Interesting..., but whatever you do, do not search for investors.
Vidar
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I will put it on Youtube not this Friday, but next. No later that Sunday.
You will love this.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
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Translation:
Gimme some attention please.
Another one:
Look at me, look at me, I'm on the verge of successful free energy!!!
(it is what I proclaim for years at each one of my conventional assemblies)
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I will put it on Youtube not this Friday, but next. No later that Sunday.
You will love this.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
First we will love it, then someone will bust it.... ;D
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I have the link for Butch's break through design http://flickriver.com/photos/lafonte_research_group/popular-interesting/
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That is almost an exact copy of the work of Mr. Peter Lindemann....
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Nice work Butch, please keep me informed.
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That is almost an exact copy of the work of Mr. Peter Lindemann....
Nuts
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Nuts
Why don't we let the users decide? ::)
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Why don't we let the users decide? ::)
You don't know the first thing about magnet motors, your just another internet wacko hiding behind a screen name.
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That is almost an exact copy of the work of Mr. Peter Lindemann....
Well that was an extremely ignorant and useless post.
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Why don't we let the users decide? ::)
Why don't you build something and leave everybody alone.
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Why don't you build something and leave everybody alone.
You seriously want me to respond to that?
You open up this topic yourself...talking about your Breakthrough and when someone is a bit critical you just tell them to leave everybody alone?
That's not how it works bud.
And why don't you build something new in stead of copying others?
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You don't know the first thing about magnet motors.
You don't know either ::)
your just another internet wacko hiding behind a screen name.
Easy Butch...
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Before attacking the guy, why not wait and see what he has come up with?
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He started it Mark.
I just said it looks like Lindemann.
And it does.
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I'm no expert XS, you could tell me it looked like something in walmart and I wouldnt know LOL I am just saying lets see if it works. I would hate to have someone who has something, that will actually works, and before they reveal it, get chased away and then never see it. We are all on the same side here, to tell the oil companies to F off! ;D
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At least i know the difference between a simulation and reality ;)
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This link > http://www.youtube.com/user/LaFonteResearchGroup
Also, we will be up loading over 1200 of our designs and video's of over 100 different designs that were built and tested, twenty years worth.
Thanks for all the support over the years guys.
Butch
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Picture attached.
Thanks,
Butch
Video link > http://www.youtube.com/user/LaFonteResearchGroup
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I don't think that it would work at all due to the friction which cannot be overcome by the low excess energy produced. Many of us here have enough experience with these machines to know not to waste time with such designs.
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Translation:
I'm no expert also, to me it look like a part of MO oven fan,...
but as I see comments , XS-NRG wants to have a lot more attention as butch.
And XS-NRG please don't attack me (this is only my opinion), at least not in this thread - lets butch idea see the light first
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All testing I have done does indicate that energy can be gained in expanding thin metal sheets. This is provided the metal never leaves the magnetic field as this design seems to comply with. Even without any data on this design I think it shows merit. Further testing will indicate the hidden problems if any.
Butch, have you already tested this design?
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The Pseudo Solid aspect has been tested and posted on the web 20 different times by us. It is just common knowledge now that it works in that respect. The disks expanding was posted as many ways also by us in videos of tests. The bar aspect is being tested now and looks very good at this point. Every aspect is very elementary, the combination is what makes it unique. I really like this design, it just has a good feel about it.
Butch
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The Pseudo Solid aspect has been tested and posted on the web 20 different times by us. It is just common knowledge now that it works in that respect. The disks expanding was posted as many ways also by us in videos of tests. The bar aspect is being tested now and looks very good at this point. Every aspect is very elementary, the combination is what makes it unique. I really like this design, it just has a good feel about it.
Butch
How do you mean "tested"? You have a working model made of real materials, sitting on a bench and working? Is that what you mean by "tested" or you mean that you have modeled it via computer programs and that gives you the sense it might work in real life?
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I have one sitting on a bench and working.
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Of course, you do.
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I do.
That's why i can say that you are wrong.
I have not seen any of your:
interesting things
Nor did i:
becoming rich.
And nor do i see any:
unquestionable marketing success.
So once again:
You are wrong.
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Yes, of course.
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I really look forward to yet another sleepless night...trying to figure out how it work, and how it doesn't...
Anyway, I think Butch' idea are one of the most genious magnet motor attempts to date. Sure I will try to figure this out - it will take a while I'm afraid - loooong sleepless nights :)
The first thing I imagine, is how the outer "discs" are suppose to escape the magnetic field without spending energy on it. Another one is that those actions taken to rotate must be slightly offset in order to dertermind clockwise or counterclockwise rotation. When this offset are taken care of, the energy spent to slide the discs back and forth, would probably require just the energy required to get some energy out - which means it will probably not work.
The greatest torque would be present at approx 45 degrees offset, but the animation have 0 degree offset, which means it will not be possible to tell which way it will rotate - which in turn means that the present animation will not work in practice (?).
Time will show, so I do hope that Butch want to build this. Shouldn't take much time to do so. As far as the cogging conserns, I do not believe cogging should be a reason for a non-working motor, as cogging should be two equal repulsion and attractions present at two different points in the revolution, which should end up in zero energy loss anyways.
Vidar
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Yes, of course.
Fool
Why do people think that it will automatically start raining dollars?
There won't be any of that.
Omnibus you must be a very dumb person.
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Sure, you have an OU machine. You're not a fool. Only fools don't have one.
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XS, can you show us your machine, possibly in a video or something? Is it the same as Butch's new design?
Thanks,
Mark
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I used to think that nothing was harder to understand than the mechanics of Free Energy . Boy , how wrong can you be .The mechanics are as nothing compared to trying to understand the psychology of Free Energy. Why cant we keep things simple . Let us say what we mean , and mean what we say .
@xsNRG . If you have working machine , then show it . If you do not have one , why claim that you have?
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How do you mean "tested"? You have a working model made of real materials, sitting on a bench and working? Is that what you mean by "tested" or you mean that you have modeled it via computer programs and that gives you the sense it might work in real life?
Omnibus,
I will start up loading all past video's of shop testing. There are so many, it will take weeks to get them all up loaded. Yes, I was talking about actual tests of those principles.
Butch
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See, I'm not interested at all in demonstrations of tests of principles. We have more than enough of it. Violation of CoE has already been proven categorically. The problem is do you have an actual working pmm? Just one video will do.
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See, I'm not interested at all in demonstrations of tests of principles. We have more than enough of it. Violation of CoE has already been proven categorically. The problem is do you have an actual working pmm? Just one video will do.
A working permanent magnet motor is one that runs it's self and can be put on public display 24 hours a day 7 days a week. We can not do that because we have never had the money to get past the basic theory test stages. We build with shop scrap, old parts, regular shop steel. We put our designs, animations, videos of tests of basic principle with substandard materials and supplies in hopes that someone with money will carry it through the research and development stages to it's full potiental. That has never happened. It's kind of like discovering that a piston will move down a cylinder if a fuel air mixture is exploded in the cylinder, but not having the money to build the working four cycle engine. We can demostrate the operating basics, but the final machine takes money, something we don't have. But we don't let that stop us from trying to get an working principle out to the public to take to production.
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Look at attached picture, read text at bottom.
Thanks,
Butch
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Stop the Flaming.
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A working permanent magnet motor is one that runs it's self and can be put on public display 24 hours a day 7 days a week. We can not do that because we have never had the money to get past the basic theory test stages. We build with shop scrap, old parts, regular shop steel. We put our designs, animations, videos of tests of basic principle with substandard materials and supplies in hopes that someone with money will carry it through the research and development stages to it's full potiental. That has never happened. It's kind of like discovering that a piston will move down a cylinder if a fuel air mixture is exploded in the cylinder, but not having the money to build the working four cycle engine. We can demostrate the operating basics, but the final machine takes money, something we don't have. But we don't let that stop us from trying to get an working principle out to the public to take to production.
If it's a self-starter all you need to show is that the system makes more than one turn on its own. Don't need to have it running day and night.
On the funding part, I fully sympathize but that's the name of the game. It's a revolution and you can't expect to be supported by the forces you wanna overthrow. The only way to win the war is to demonstrate a working perpetuum mobile which unfortunately, you have to fund yourself. Under the current conditions I wouldn't even accept the money even if someone wants to give it to me. Unless there's a very clear stipulation that it is given for pure research and no ROI is ever expected from that research. So, tough. Don't ever claim you've made a breakthrough before you can demonstrate a working OU device and have it replicated by others.
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I have to agree with omnibus, theory and drawing are useless w/o a working device. Isn't there a theory that a 2 stroke engine wasn't supposed to work???
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I'll call it as I see it, thats my choice, yours is to not open my posts.
But if it bothers you that much I'll just post some where else, you guys fuss to much, always have.
Butch
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A working permanent magnet motor is one that runs it's self and can be put on public display 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
We can not do that
You can't but i can.
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Butch makes a very good point that research and development is a very expensive process . On the other hand , @XS-NRG , talking is very cheap...
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You can't but i can.
Your the biggest nut I have ever come across on overunity.com
I'm so glad I found you, I would have wasted so much time trying to help out the world, but you have made me realize it's just not worth the time and effort.
I'm out of here. I'll look for your self runner on the news.
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Why am i a nut?
Your designs are way too complex.
It's MUCH easier.
You will start crying when you see how easy it is.
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Why am i a nut?
Your designs are way too complex.
It's MUCH easier.
You will start crying when you see how easy it is.
Hi Marco,
Can we see it please? And when?
Thanks, Gyula
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@XS-NRG:
Yeah, come on and give us some direction with replicating your build! ???
truesearch
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One option in addition to this attached version is to remove the disks all together and make it a pure Pseudo Solid.
Use bars only, no disks, except for outer Fill Disks.
Butch
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See attached
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I have to agree with omnibus, theory and drawing are useless w/o a working device. Isn't there a theory that a 2 stroke engine wasn't supposed to work???
I am posting this for the efforts of our machinest Mark who has build for free hundrends of our designs for testing including videos of eash test for the web. We are not a theory and animations only or drawings only group. We are the hardest working team in overunity and have established that over the last fifteen years. Mark works long hard hours to give the public knowledge from our research. We have built more designs than any team in overunity. We design, we build, we test, we then give it to the public. As far as us not having a self runner or true overunity machine, well that puts us in some pretty good company, you see no one on the face of the earth has done it either.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
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You can't say all those things because you cannot know them.
There are many hard working grouops so why would you belong to the hardest working group.
And there are many people who did it including me.
You just don't know , your assuming.
Take my hint, your group's design is way too complicated.
Also look into the underying principles of magnetism don't just look at a magnet as some sort of magnetic battery because it is not.
Try to understand the underlying principles.
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I've got the video's of all the tests and they have been posted over the years, where are all of yours?
Don't give me any answer other than, "here they are"
I will match any one for video proof of projects over the last 15 years, any takers?
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I've got the video's of all the tests and they have been posted over the years, where are all of yours?
Don't give me any answer other than, "here they are"
I do not have a single photo nor a single video yet i have a working free energy device on my desk....
Pherhaps you can tell me why i need video's ?
They are not needed to build a working model. ::)
I think you wasted alot of time on all that video stuff :)
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I do not have a single photo nor a single video yet i have a working free energy device on my desk....
Pherhaps you can tell me why i need video's ?
They are not needed to build a working model. ::)
I think you wasted alot of time on all that video stuff :)
Can you please submit plans and schematics, theory of operation for replication?
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XS-NRG go take your device and shove it up your ass, we don't need it and we don't want you and your lousy piece of shit attitude. I just about had it with trolls/fools/dickheads like you. Either contribute or GET THE FUCK OUT!
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Why am i a nut?
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You give yourself the answer:
I do not have a single photo nor a single video yet i have a working free energy device on my desk....
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Only a nut can believe that one will take his word for it.
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The development of this thread prooves that a claim that says "Break through" without any hard facts, working devices etc. are present from the first post, ends up in discussion whether the "break through" ar for real or not, wheter there are scientific proofs of a working model or not. - all this ends up in arguing!
I would strongly recommend anyone who finds the holy grail, don't tell anyone before they have actually confirmd that it IS the holy grail.
A claim without proof are not worth a cent.
That said, I know I'm not perfect, but please let us turn this discussion into something ABOUT the subject. If you haven't anything to say other than arguing, do that via PM - NOT HERE. We have no interest in reading a thread filled with hate.
Vidar
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Either contribute or GET THE FUCK OUT!
Okay i'll go with the last one.
Can you please submit plans and schematics, theory of operation for replication?
You may BUY them.
OOOO no we don't want that...it has got to be FREE.
We are not going to PAY for FREE Energy.
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@XS-NRG. That's fair enough . Where are these plans available , and what is the cost please ? No one can be expected to buy a pig in a poke , so to speak , So details of build costs , performance of the present model , and scaleability would be reasonable things to ask . Over to you , old chap .
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XS,
I'd be cranky too,Take the stupid thing off your desk!
Looking at it every day and not being able to benefit some how is obviously not good for your Head.
They say misery loves company?
SOooo......... your spreadin the love HUH?
So far so good !
"Les Miserables"
This OU stuff always makes you so Happy HUH?
Thats why we're Open Source here,funny thing a while back you started a thread ,
and I remember you trying to share with us ,seems to me you really do have the "HEART",
you just get very angry, very easy ?
I don't know ??but I have seen your nice side
and I think It piss's you off that your Peers don't appreciate your efforts !
Hope you get it figured out !
Chet
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@Butch, I am no machinist, nor expert, but you expect everyone to believe you have something with "drawings" and computer simulations. Not everything works like it is supposed to on the drawing board and some things work that are not supposed to. So if you don't build it, then you never really know if it works or not. If I had the knowledge your team did and thought I had something I knew would run, why wouldn't I build it? If it did work, then you would win the Nobel Peace Prize (aka get a million dollars, tax free), and be one of the most famous people on the planet that "saved the world" from fossil fuels. You are gonna tell me you don't want that? But you would just rather think everything up, show that it works in a simulation then let someone else get all the glory, because you don't want to or "can't afford" to build just one prototype to prove your theory? You would have tons of investors lining up around your door to get this into production, even if you asked for donations from here. I donated to the Australian guy when he asked for donations to build his device that "was supposed" to work. When it didn't, I didn't ask for the money back either. So don't attack me.
There are people here that are machinists that might be willing to help you build it, why don't you ask for help instead of retreating?
Mark
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Mark,
Butch is building this one as we type!
He has Peeps that do that part!
Thanks Butch,
I don't know why some folks take your sharing here so badly.
Please don't think we're all so unappreciative
of your efforts!
Chet
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@ Chet, I thought Butch was talking about me. LOL
Sorry Butch, but if you do need some help, let me know what I can do to help.
Mark
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I don't think open source is sharing ideas about how something may work. Open source in my book is to have a really working device and help everybody else with sharing all the details to have it reproduced independently. Ideas have no value in this field, the actual working device does.
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Omni
Its a linear thing,First you need an Idea...................
Perhaps a thought?
Then you proceed!
If you resent Butch for his efforts,well Change the channel?
We really don't need thought police!
Chet
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No, of course, I don't resent Butch. All I'm saying is that we should follow the right perspective about open source.
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Omni
Good!
Hopefully we'll get to see what Open Source
Really means someday!
So we can actually get a perspective!
A working device, doing actual work!
Fully disclosed!For all to benefit!
Wouldn't that guy/gal be some kind of hero?
Chet
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He or she would most certainly be.
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I don't think open source is sharing ideas about how something may work. Open source in my book is to have a really working device and help everybody else with sharing all the details to have it reproduced independently. Ideas have no value in this field, the actual working device does.
Maybe we can work this out like adults. How about this we agree that there will be two types of open sourcing, Theory Open Sourcing and Working Device Open Sourcing?
The person states at the begining which class his work falls into. If one doesn't like working with theory then he stays off the thread by choice.
Every tree starts with a seed, we need all the ideas we can get.
We also need help in getting the working device verified and to market.
Each of these needs a place to be accepted and grow.
Thanks,
Butch
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I agree with Butch here. He is presenting an idea that from his mass of experience, he believes it may work. Nothing wrong wit dat. At least he shows, and shows, and shows. While many others show just nagging text like they rule er sumthin.
I still think getting the plates to separate will be a good trick, but he is right, its a great seed. We need to try and do anything and everything to accomplish this goal, no stone unturned. ;]
Well now I think maybe there should be 3 sections of this forum, the Nags at the entry level, then newbies can get elected to an intermediate level that accepts any experience level nag member, and then the elite level can elect from that level to join the best. This way everyone gets a fair chance to be part of the club. Everyone graduates to the next level by earning it. This would keep the real thinkers to the thinkin instead of replying to bs posts.
Keep it coming Butch Just ignore and just post the good stuff, cuz the nags feed on the replies. ;]
Mags
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Idea, see attached
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This is the correct drawing for Pure Pseudo Solid
Thanks,
Butch
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One problem I have is that the motor rotor doesn't seem to imply
any asymmetric force vectors? Why does this want to rotate except
by some sort of magnetic phase delay? Magnetic fields can equalize
instantaneously when they want to.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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Mark,
Look at the illustration in the upper right of the magnet and rotor.
Imagine the pseudo solid slugs not on the shaft, just the narrow flat square rotor.
When it is just past 90 degrees to the magnet poles the torque would pull it vertical to line up with the flux field with a very strong force. It would probably cut your finger off if you had it in the way.
Then the pseudo solid slugs move in and make it a solid steel bar in effect so it can rotate 90 degrees to start the cycle again.
Butch
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Maybe we can work this out like adults. How about this we agree that there will be two types of open sourcing, Theory Open Sourcing and Working Device Open Sourcing?
The person states at the begining which class his work falls into. If one doesn't like working with theory then he stays off the thread by choice.
Every tree starts with a seed, we need all the ideas we can get.
We also need help in getting the working device verified and to market.
Each of these needs a place to be accepted and grow.
Thanks,
Butch
Sounds right to me, Butch. All flamers and trolls, get outta here.
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Butch,
Just an idea: What if you use permanent springs to force the discs together. The magnetic field in phase 2 will go through the solid bar, so the springs are now able to press the discs together. In phase 1 the discs are closest to the magnets and will be forced apart due to the like pole all the discs are facing. In this phase there is less steel to guide the magnetic flux, so the magnets want to use the solid parts of the rotor. So then the rotor rotates to ligne up the solid steel. Now, the discs are out of the magnetic field and the springs will overcome the magnetic force and compress the discs together again to make a "solid" steel. This will in turn let the rotor continue into phase 1 again, and the cycle repeats.
The delay in the mass of the discs will be sufficient to make an offset which will make sure of a stable and continous rotation.
Just some thoughts.
Vidar
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Butch,
Just an idea: What if you use permanent springs to force the discs together. The magnetic field in phase 2 will go through the solid bar, so the springs are now able to press the discs together. In phase 1 the discs are closest to the magnets and will be forced apart due to the like pole all the discs are facing. In this phase there is less steel to guide the magnetic flux, so the magnets want to use the solid parts of the rotor. So then the rotor rotates to ligne up the solid steel. Now, the discs are out of the magnetic field and the springs will overcome the magnetic force and compress the discs together again to make a "solid" steel. This will in turn let the rotor continue into phase 1 again, and the cycle repeats.
The delay in the mass of the discs will be sufficient to make an offset which will make sure of a stable and continous rotation.
Just some thoughts.
Vidar
Great Idea! That should work.
Thanks,
Butch
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This link > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6DcYKe010
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This link > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6DcYKe010
When separated the outer parts have its greatest mass aligned with the magnetic field, and will not turn away, but will be kept locked in the magnetic field. I think your first example with the discs are better. If it works better i practice, I don't know.
Vidar
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Butch,
Just an idea: What if you use permanent springs to force the discs together. The magnetic field in phase 2 will go through the solid bar, so the springs are now able to press the discs together. In phase 1 the discs are closest to the magnets and will be forced apart due to the like pole all the discs are facing. In this phase there is less steel to guide the magnetic flux, so the magnets want to use the solid parts of the rotor. So then the rotor rotates to ligne up the solid steel. Now, the discs are out of the magnetic field and the springs will overcome the magnetic force and compress the discs together again to make a "solid" steel. This will in turn let the rotor continue into phase 1 again, and the cycle repeats.
The delay in the mass of the discs will be sufficient to make an offset which will make sure of a stable and continous rotation.
Just some thoughts.
Vidar
Hey Vidar
Are you saying that the disks or plates will repel each other while in close proximity to the stator magnet pole? Have you tried this?
Mags
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Sorry, my last post may have seemed rude. But if lets say we had iron filings instead of disks, would they separate when subject to the pole of a magnet?
Id love to hear more if what you guys are talking about works. Maybe I missed something
Mags
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Sorry, my last post may have seemed rude. But if lets say we had iron filings instead of disks, would they separate when subject to the pole of a magnet?
Id love to hear more if what you guys are talking about works. Maybe I missed something
Mags
It's OK :) No problem!
When you have a couple of iron discs stacked together, they want to separate in presence of a magnetic pole. This happens because all the discs are now small magnets with equal poles side by side. We know that equal poles repel eachother.
If the spring are not too hard on the discs, the magnetic field will try, end succeed in separating the discs to a sertain extent.
I have tried to stack a bunch of washers on a nonmagnetic rod. The washers will separate in presence of a magnetic pole.
Experiments also show that when the discs are separated, the attraction to the magnetic pole are greater. Hopefully, this will be compensated by outer discs which will in sum reduce the magnetic conductivity when the discs are separated so there will be greater attraction to the solid part of the rotor so it wants to rotate. When all the magnetic flux pass through the solid part, there will be less flux through the washers which in turn will be too little for the discs to be kept separated, so the spring will smash those discs together, making a solid iron part. At this phase, the rotor will freely continue to rotate because of the uniform rotor. A delay caused by the mass in the discs will allow the discs to separate "too late", so the rotor can rotate more than 90 degrees before they are fully separated. This delay also applies further, but that is a good thing as we want as much separation as possible for as long as possible to let the solid part of the rotor to enter a second round - then hopefully the rotor will continue.
However, I have a feeling that I have not taken into acount all important details about the real life physics, which will force the design to a stop anyways. I do hope for the best :)
Vidar
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Something everyone should keep in mind is that when the disks are touching the upper and lower bars or rather in slidding contact and are positioned directly under the magnet poles, there is no repulsion between them. The reason for this is that there is no air gap. The air gap is where all the repulsion takes place.
Butch
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When separated the outer parts have its greatest mass aligned with the magnetic field, and will not turn away, but will be kept locked in the magnetic field. I think your first example with the discs are better. If it works better i practice, I don't know.
Vidar
We found that the "locking force" on the outside elements is far less than the locking force on the center rotor.
So that is a net gain in energy. Will post video of tests tomorrow night.
Butch
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We found that the "locking force" on the outside elements is far less than the locking force on the center rotor.
So that is a net gain in energy. Will post video of tests tomorrow night.
Butch
Looking forward to watch the test.
Good luck!
Vidar
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See link > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMcJ8J8DX6Q
Pictures attached also here
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See link > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMcJ8J8DX6Q
Pictures attached also here
So, what measurements do you intend to do to demonstrate it's OU? It appears to be OU but hard data are needed to support the hunch.
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Very simple experiment, but one of the most exiting videos I have seen! I did not expect the two sliding pieces should snap in together, but rather be forced apart. Looks like you got the forces with you, so to speak.
Can you say anything about how the "slide forces" are compared to the torque in the center rotor?
I look forward to the follow up with a more complete product :)
I whish you good luck Butch!
Vidar
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See this link > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOQ-n1oCouY
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So, what measurements do you intend to do to demonstrate it's OU? It appears to be OU but hard data are needed to support the hunch.
Why don't you let him finish it first. If it does work like I hope, he shouldn't have to take any measurements. A working motor should be proof enough.
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Why don't you let him finish it first. If it does work like I hope, he shouldn't have to take any measurements. A working motor should be proof enough.
Because we don't have any money. That was built from scrap parts.
Butch
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Why don't you let him finish it first. If it does work like I hope, he shouldn't have to take any measurements. A working motor should be proof enough.
I do agree with that. A working self-sustaining motor doesn't need any measurements. This motor, however, is very difficult to make self-sustaining, however, which doesn't mean it isn't OU. Proving that the motor at hand is an OU machine through measurements, without making it self-sustaining, is much much more easy than beating yourself to death, underfunded, using substandard infrastructure, in order to satisfy someone's psychological or political needs.
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Because we don't have any money. That was built from scrap parts.
Butch
I whish I could help... How much do you need? (just curious)
PM me if you don't want to share it here...
Vidar
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Always good to see ideas materialize into reality even if they are basic. It's really sad that the creativity and ingenuity of man is limited by the invention of money. I hope the day comes everyone will have a 3d printer at home, one that can even print out metal parts ;D , do a youtube search on this . At least this revolution is slowly but surely happening already. They think the Internet is scary, but what happens if billions of people have the power to create anything they want very cheaply and fast.
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Always good to see ideas materialize into reality even if they are basic. It's really sad that the creativity and ingenuity of man is limited by the invention of money. I hope the day comes everyone will have a 3d printer at home, one that can even print out metal parts ;D , do a youtube search on this . At least this revolution is slowly but surely happening already. They think the Internet is scary, but what happens if billions of people have the power to create anything they want very cheaply and fast.
What more than 5-axis CNC machine can 3D printer bring? Such CNC machines exist but the problem is only very few can afford them.
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What more than 5-axis CNC machine can 3D printer bring? Such CNC machines exist but the problem is only very few can afford them.
I would say versatility, effeciency, size and as you mention cost. When you are depositing material layer by layer there's technically nothing going to waste. You can also create very intricate shapes with inner cavities that would be near impossible to achieve with a CNC router/mill/lathe. You could create bearings, tools, nuts/bolts, complex and organic structures like schaubergers machines, objects in objects. Basically one machine would do it all.
I really don't know what made inkjets cheaper than their cartridges but I hope something similar would happen with 3d printers and Direct Metal Laser Sintering.
Open source projects like makerbot, reprap or lasersaur are certainly a good boost in the right direction.
Anyway that's enough day dreaming for me.
Again good job team lafonte.
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Butch,
Money generally is not of primary importance when doing things.
Instrumentation is of prime importance because subsystem efficiency is
of prime concern. How the heck do you design something mechanically
complex and expect it to work efficiently the first time? Correct
instrumentation doesn't have to be expensive either.
From what I am seeing MIBS are always trying to bury important
projects too soon, and without proper analytical justification.
---
This is how I would do this.
I would link the center shaft to a flywheel mechanism. I would find one
that works ok in a toy vehicle first. I would then instrument the flywheel
with a white mark and an opto to read out flywheel RPMs.
1. Qenergy ~= flywheel RPM2-RPM1.
2. The speed of a demo motor during an OU demo can be arbitrarily slow.
3. The ability to store flywheel energy efficiently during the center magnet
"flip" is of fundamental importance to the project. The connection has to
be stiff.
I would use solenoid valve controlled compressed air to speed up the flywheel
when necessary.
a. Measure Qenergy decrease for 1/2 rotation with endcaps asserted.
b. Now deassert the endcaps use compressed air to keep flywheel RPM
constant during the charge up flip and stop applying air during the back side flip
where the magnet overruns the flywheel and charges it itself. This is what has
to happen efficiently.
c. Use the results from A and subtract during B the flywheel speed should
now be increasing. Qenergy = available for asserting and deasserting the
endcap.
d. Build a lego endcap asserter/deasserter. This would work on-the-fly of a
slowly rotating central magnet. It may need to store energy in hanging
weights so they can act instantly, input energy constantly.
e. Power it from the central axle.
f. Remove compressed air. Flywheel RPM continually increasing = success.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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Ferrofluids have friction-reducing capabilities. If a thin coating is applied to the surface of a strong enough magnet, it can cause the magnet to glide across smooth surfaces with minimal resistance and can reduce wear in moving parts.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrofluid#Mechanical_engineering )
GB
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Ferrofluids have friction-reducing capabilities. If a thin coating is applied to the surface of a strong enough magnet, it can cause the magnet to glide across smooth surfaces with minimal resistance and can reduce wear in moving parts.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrofluid#Mechanical_engineering )
GB
Good idea! There is magnetic oils in different qualities. I bought a dl on ebay once. This oil dries out after quite short time and get sticky, but there is oils which can maintain its liquid form for very long time - specially those oils which is used to cool the voicecoils in tweeters - by applying magnetic oil in the magnet gap. These oils cost more, but are worth the money. At work, we apply such oils into tweeters which is repairable.
Also copper-paste/grease are very good for reducing friction.
Vidar
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I believe that the the sliding Pseudo Solid Elements can be cog free by designing each to be connected with a second identical system but out of phase so as to have equal but opposite forces. That would leave near 100% of the rotor's work to be used external of the system. Will make drawing and post.
Thanks,
Butch
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Butch;
Have you thought about using a square spline shaft so that
the endcaps rotate in synchronism with the magnet(s). It
would make the endcap assert/de-assert operation be the
only operation required.
If the encaps jam it might be possible to have a keyway in
the endcaps and have them ride in on a non-ferrous metal
strips of phosphor-bronze attached to the central magnet.
The endcaps could be retained in a carrier frame. Kinda
reminds one of something one might see in an old-style
typewriter. I feel a pendulum coming on too.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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Butch;
Have you thought about using a square spline shaft so that
the endcaps rotate in synchronism with the magnet(s). It
would make the endcap assert/de-assert operation be the
only operation required.
If the encaps jam it might be possible to have a keyway in
the endcaps and have them ride in on a non-ferrous metal
strips of phosphor-bronze attached to the central magnet.
The endcaps could be retained in a carrier frame. Kinda
reminds one of something one might see in an old-style
typewriter. I feel a pendulum coming on too.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Well said! I was thinking the same thing, but wasn't able to find the words to convey this (without overcomplicating it). I think Butch has this all figured out. The demo video was just a quick contraption to allow us to see the basic operation, along with being able to visualize the forces involved during the different phases. I agree, the only operation required is to assert/de-assert the endcaps. I like the terminology you're using (easy to describe and visualize).
Thanks,
GB
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Thanks Gravityblock. I of course will default to whatever Butch uses. I haven't
been more excited by an OU functional design for some time. My Dad's machine
shop had a "Magnetic Chuck" for holding pieces but turning the knob had lots
of drag, so it was not clear if it was OU or not at the time. I guess it proves
that a sheet fanner beats a magnetic chuck for demoing OU. I would hope Butch
focuses on doing a straight OU demo, rather then doing development for apps.
so we don't loose the implications and can celebrate. Believe me, if this works it
will not soon be forgotten.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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@All
I thought I'd describe Butch's idea is in words:
This is a 3D three dimensional anisotropic magneto-mechanical [overunity amplifier]
modulator that allows mechanical to magnetic field modulation to occur in the
x,y plane and still allows machine phase evolution to occur in y,z plane.
... [..] => When prooven.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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I believe that the the sliding Pseudo Solid Elements can be cog free by designing each to be connected with a second identical system but out of phase so as to have equal but opposite forces. That would leave near 100% of the rotor's work to be used external of the system. Will make drawing and post.
Thanks,
Butch
Even with more systems out of phase to reduce cogging, each system separately will cog. However, cogging is not a reason why your design shouldn't work, but several systems out of phase will ease start and stop of the rotor due to smoother run. Electromotors also cog a lot, but if there is excess energy in the system this energy should be sufficiant to keep the motor running - whether the energy are applied externally or created within the system/loop.
I have now started to question the energy required to separate and close the outer elements. I ran a few simulations with magnets, and translated into your design, it seems like it takes more energy to separate the outer elements when the main rotor are aligned vertically.
I cannot find a good explanation to this, but it seems that the potential energy applied to the main rotor in vertical position (Angular to the magnet alignment) are the same as the energy difference in separating and closing the outer elements. To me this sounds nuts, because there are not added mass, magnetism, or elements in the system to explain the difference (Which finally seems to stop the selfrun). But I will hopefully get som help by broli who are trying to make a LUA-script for calculating forces in a linear system I have simulated in FEMM. Then I will be able to increase the sample resolution in order to find a more exact average of the forces between distance A and B.
On the other hand, I have only simulated in 2D. If I had Maxwell 3D, it would be possible to simulate more accurately - I guess.
Vidar
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Any news here Butch?
PS! Don't let me, or anyone, stop you from trying, even if my last post seems a little pessimistic.
Vidar
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See attached
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We are going main stream with our group's work and like any main stream business or research group we will only be dealing with people that can give use a full name, address and contact phone number. Thanks to all that have helped us over the years and check Youtube for updates on our progress. I will not be checking in here any more
after this post. I have asked Stefan to delete my profile, but he has not at this time.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
LaFonte Research Group
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I had some pieces made so I could see exactly what kind of forces were at play in one of Butch's pseudo solid concepts from earlier in this thread. I had modified the design somewhat to make it less expensive to machine if it showed enough promise. I found that Butch had also posted the same modified version later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XN42T2aSGg&feature=relmfu
Unfortunately I am now convinced that it will not work. That became very clear once I had everything put together.
The problem lies in the force necessary to shift the center piece from side to side. At the time we need to shift that piece it has much metal in front of the magnets on the side that it currently sits. On the other side, it has no metal in front of the magnets since the slot is facing them. The force it takes to push the center piece in the direction needed is very strong. The magnets are pulling the center piece in the wrong direction with so much force that I think it is at least equal to the force that wants to rotate the individual end pieces from vertical to horizontal (in line with the magnets). I see no way around this issue.
Fun project.
Thanks,
M.
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Hi Mondrasek,
Very nice setup, thanks and it is unfortunate it did not come out as a winning idea in practice. Maybe it would be good to inform Butch about your findings, just to learn from it. However, he has left this forum...
Found a Flicker link to his recent ideas:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lafonte_research_group/
and on youtube he has a channel too:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LaFonteResearch
Gyula
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modrasek,
Your going to hate me, but I suggest you modify
the central piece of metal to be more like Butches.
That is: 1/3 (fork)<-> 1/3 (disc) <-> 1/3 (fork), right
and left forks in sync. Then mount the magnets central
to the forks rather then at the edges. Also you may
want to create a return iron path armature for the
magnets like he has to boost flux strength.
The reason I am saying this, is that magnet fields are like
electrical currents and they seek out the path of least
(magnetic) resistance. So the path for both magnetic
fluxes when the end pieces are deasserted is through
the central area, which needs to have low magnetic
resistance (called magnetic reluctance) to the magnetic
flux. It needs to be wide and direct. The Magnets need
to have good access to it.
Having the end pieces in synchronization may allow
them to share lateral z-axis assertion energy. Hoping
anyway.
Maybe you have tried the above already? I just want to
remind that we don't know what the optimized parameters
are for various distances so it's best to cut and try approach
based on what has come before.
Here are some suggestions:
(a) try larger diameter, implying stronger magnets
(b) move both the magnets slightly toward the center
to create some "pilot flux" through the disc section
(c) try reversing the polarity on magnets such that
the flux crosses the central point.
(d) try to determine if the end pieces are "contact
sticking" - use a strip of teflon, to test if a track
of non magnetic material can ease assertion energy by
disallowing contact sticking. This could be a phosphor-
bronze key bearing track in a production version.
---
mondrasek, good work so far!
Yes! => If you can get the end piece assertion forces
down to where Butch' s apparently were in his version,
I've done *a lot* of thinking about what to do next,
which I would be glad to discuss. I'm not speaking for
him, but Butch has got a lot going on with various
magnetic methods, so he may not be able to follow
through on everything that might be desirable.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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Mark,
There are several reasons for the geometry I went with. A major consideration was to try and minimize the mass of the center piece since just accelerating it from side to side is a pure loss. Secondly I planned to use the ½ inch x ½ inch neos that I had on hand. I made the end pieces 20 mm square in cross section so as to be good targets for those neos and minimize the mass of the center piece. The distance between the slots is ½ inch as well since I choose a ½ inch shaft diameter and this was a good bearing size. The OD was drawn at 50mm, but the machinist asked to just use 2 inch stock which was close enough. I had also drawn up a 6.4 mm cam groove that fit nicely between the slots and was to accept a ¼ inch cam follower that would have been mounted centrally and cause the side to side motion as the pieces rotated. I did not ask to have that groove machined since it would be very expensive (for me) and I wanted to first feel the forces at play.
I have positioned the neos central to the forks, at the ends, towards the middle, etc. I saw no improvements either way. If you maximize the force to rotate the end pieces by centering on them, then the force required to slide the center piece is also strongest. Moving the neos off center appears to weaken both those forces. I’ve found no way to strengthen one while minimizing the other.
Return iron armature is therefore not helpful since increasing magnet strength increases the force needed to slide the center piece proportionally.
Not sure how you think having the two forks in sync can help? Maybe I do not understand what you mean by in sync?
In response to your direct suggestions:
(a) I don’t think scaling the size up gains anything. It only makes it more cumbersome and dangerous to work on. And it is contrary to minimizing the mass of the center piece.
(b) & (c) have both been tried with no apparent improvements.
(d) I see no contact sticking. You can slide the end pieces in and out of the slots with virtually no force when compared to the forces applied by the neos. The slots were ground to their running fit tolerances. The end pieces were lapped into theirs. Very precise slip fit.
I think a good way to visualize the problems with this concept is to do so without the end pieces. Just think what the center piece would want to do if rotated in the presence of the magnets.
I want to play with it for a bit more, but then I would be happy to loan it to you if you want to feel for yourself.
Sadly I do not have access to free machining services in order to try other configurations without considerable expense. This one build was my present to myself for now, but I can’t afford to do these regularly.
M.
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I want to play with it for a bit more, but then I would be happy to loan it to you if you want to feel for yourself.
Sadly I do not have access to free machining services in order to try other configurations without considerable expense. This one build was my present to myself for now, but I can’t afford to do these regularly.
M.
Thanks for the offer. I was thinking that Butch might be interested
in seeing some alternatives to what he did. He could better compare
loadings etc. I do think that mag. return path through the air is going
to reconnect through the rotor. It would really be nice of him if he
could make something comparable to his unit available for further
experimentation. Kind of tune things up and give a thumbs up or
down relative to his unit. Yours is really a nice looking unit though. He
simulates magnetic flux stuff heavily so I trust he has dimensions
"about" right. I'm afraid the central metal in your unit is going to
be a show stopper though.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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Very one in the world has to see this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6gaN8gRs5A
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Very one in the world has to see this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6gaN8gRs5A
I think the right thread for this would be here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9188.0