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Author Topic: Break through!  (Read 44857 times)

Butch LaFonte

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Improvement to already overunity design?
« Reply #105 on: February 11, 2011, 06:55:43 PM »
I believe that the the sliding Pseudo Solid Elements can be cog free by designing each to be connected with a second identical system but out of phase so as to have equal but opposite forces. That would leave near 100% of the rotor's work to be used external of the system. Will make drawing and post.
Thanks,
Butch

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Improvement to already overunity design?
« Reply #105 on: February 11, 2011, 06:55:43 PM »

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #106 on: February 11, 2011, 11:11:09 PM »
Butch;

Have you thought about using a square spline shaft so that
the endcaps rotate in synchronism with the magnet(s). It
would make the endcap assert/de-assert operation be the
only operation required.

If the encaps jam it might be possible to have a keyway in
the endcaps and have them ride in on a non-ferrous metal
strips of phosphor-bronze attached to the central magnet.

The endcaps could be retained in a carrier frame. Kinda
reminds one of something one might see in an old-style
typewriter. I feel a pendulum coming on too.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2011, 03:20:12 AM »
Butch;

Have you thought about using a square spline shaft so that
the endcaps rotate in synchronism with the magnet(s). It
would make the endcap assert/de-assert operation be the
only operation required.

If the encaps jam it might be possible to have a keyway in
the endcaps and have them ride in on a non-ferrous metal
strips of phosphor-bronze attached to the central magnet.

The endcaps could be retained in a carrier frame. Kinda
reminds one of something one might see in an old-style
typewriter. I feel a pendulum coming on too.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Well said!  I was thinking the same thing, but wasn't able to find the words to convey this (without overcomplicating it).  I think Butch has this all figured out.  The demo video was just a quick contraption to allow us to see the basic operation, along with being able to visualize the forces involved during the different phases.  I agree, the only operation required is to assert/de-assert the endcaps.  I like the terminology you're using (easy to describe and visualize).

Thanks,

GB

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Break through!
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2011, 03:20:12 AM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2011, 09:06:15 PM »

Thanks Gravityblock.  I of course will default to whatever Butch uses. I haven't
been more excited by an OU functional design for some time. My Dad's machine
shop had a "Magnetic Chuck" for holding pieces but turning the knob had lots
of drag, so it was not clear if it was OU or not at the time. I guess it proves
that a sheet fanner beats a magnetic chuck for demoing OU. I would hope Butch
focuses on doing a straight OU demo, rather then doing development for apps.
so we don't loose the implications and can celebrate. Believe me, if this works it
will not soon be forgotten.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2011, 08:00:12 PM »
@All

I thought I'd describe Butch's idea is in words:

This is a 3D three dimensional anisotropic magneto-mechanical [overunity amplifier]
modulator that allows mechanical to magnetic field modulation to occur in the
x,y plane and still allows machine phase evolution to occur in y,z plane.

... [..] => When prooven.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Break through!
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2011, 08:00:12 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Improvement to already overunity design?
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2011, 09:31:27 AM »
I believe that the the sliding Pseudo Solid Elements can be cog free by designing each to be connected with a second identical system but out of phase so as to have equal but opposite forces. That would leave near 100% of the rotor's work to be used external of the system. Will make drawing and post.
Thanks,
Butch
Even with more systems out of phase to reduce cogging, each system separately will cog. However, cogging is not a reason why your design shouldn't work, but several systems out of phase will ease start and stop of the rotor due to smoother run. Electromotors also cog a lot, but if there is excess energy in the system this energy should be sufficiant to keep the motor running - whether the energy are applied externally or created within the system/loop.

I have now started to question the energy required to separate and close the outer elements. I ran a few simulations with magnets, and translated into your design, it seems like it takes more energy to separate the outer elements when the main rotor are aligned vertically.
I cannot find a good explanation to this, but it seems that the potential energy applied to the main rotor in vertical position (Angular to the magnet alignment) are the same as the energy difference in separating and closing the outer elements. To me this sounds nuts, because there are not added mass, magnetism, or elements in the system to explain the difference (Which finally seems to stop the selfrun). But I will hopefully get som help by broli who are trying to make a LUA-script for calculating forces in a linear system I have simulated in FEMM. Then I will be able to increase the sample resolution in order to find a more exact average of the forces between distance A and B.
On the other hand, I have only simulated in 2D. If I had Maxwell 3D, it would be possible to simulate more accurately - I guess.

Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2011, 11:26:09 AM »
Any news here Butch?

PS! Don't let me, or anyone, stop you from trying, even if my last post seems a little pessimistic.

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Break through!
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2011, 11:26:09 AM »
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Butch LaFonte

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Super simple ou test fixture
« Reply #112 on: February 28, 2011, 09:49:24 PM »
See attached

Butch LaFonte

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We are going main stream with our group
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2011, 06:00:05 AM »
We are going main stream with our group's work and like any main stream business or research group we will only be dealing with people that can give use a full name, address and contact phone number. Thanks to all that have helped us over the years and check Youtube for updates on our progress. I will not be checking in here any more
after this post. I have asked Stefan to delete my profile, but he has not at this time.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
LaFonte Research Group

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

We are going main stream with our group
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2011, 06:00:05 AM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #114 on: April 03, 2011, 07:42:28 PM »
I had some pieces made so I could see exactly what kind of forces were at play in one of Butch's pseudo solid concepts from earlier in this thread.  I had modified the design somewhat to make it less expensive to machine if it showed enough promise.  I found that Butch had also posted the same modified version later:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XN42T2aSGg&feature=relmfu

Unfortunately I am now convinced that it will not work.  That became very clear once I had everything put together.

The problem lies in the force necessary to shift the center piece from side to side.  At the time we need to shift that piece it has much metal in front of the magnets on the side that it currently sits.  On the other side, it has no metal in front of the magnets since the slot is facing them.  The force it takes to push the center piece in the direction needed is very strong.  The magnets are pulling the center piece in the wrong direction with so much force that I think it is at least equal to the force that wants to rotate the individual end pieces from vertical to horizontal (in line with the magnets).  I see no way around this issue.

Fun project.

Thanks,

M.



Offline gyulasun

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2011, 08:38:13 PM »
Hi Mondrasek,

Very nice setup, thanks and it is unfortunate it did not come out as a winning idea in practice.  Maybe it would be good to inform Butch about your findings, just to learn from it. However, he has left this forum...

Found a Flicker link to his recent ideas:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lafonte_research_group/   

and on youtube he has a channel too:

http://www.youtube.com/user/LaFonteResearch

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Break through!
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2011, 08:38:13 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #116 on: April 03, 2011, 09:22:08 PM »
modrasek,

Your going to hate me, but I suggest you modify
the central piece of metal to be more like Butches.
That is: 1/3 (fork)<-> 1/3 (disc) <-> 1/3 (fork), right
and left forks in sync. Then mount the magnets central
to the forks rather then at the edges. Also you may
want to create a return iron path armature for the
magnets like he has to boost flux strength.

The reason I am saying this, is that magnet fields are like
electrical currents and they seek out the path of least
(magnetic) resistance. So the path for both magnetic
fluxes when the end pieces are deasserted is through
the central area, which needs to have low magnetic
resistance (called magnetic reluctance) to the magnetic
flux. It needs to be wide and direct. The Magnets need
to have good access to it.

Having the end pieces in synchronization may allow
them to share lateral z-axis assertion energy. Hoping
anyway.

Maybe you have tried the above already? I just want to
remind that we don't know what the optimized parameters
are for various distances so it's best to cut and try approach
based on what has come before.

Here are some suggestions:
(a) try larger diameter, implying stronger magnets
(b) move both the magnets slightly toward the center
to create some "pilot flux" through the disc section
(c) try reversing the polarity on magnets such that
the flux crosses the central point.
(d) try to determine if the end pieces are "contact
sticking" - use a strip of teflon, to test if a track
of non magnetic material can ease assertion energy by
disallowing contact sticking.  This could be a phosphor-
bronze key bearing track in a production version.


---

mondrasek, good work so far!

Yes! => If you can get the end piece assertion forces
down to where Butch' s apparently were in his version,
I've done *a lot* of thinking about what to do next,
which I would be glad to discuss. I'm not speaking for
him, but Butch has got a lot going on with various
magnetic methods, so he may not be able to follow
through on everything that might be desirable.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #117 on: April 04, 2011, 03:23:04 PM »
Mark,

There are several reasons for the geometry I went with.  A major consideration was to try and minimize the mass of the center piece since just accelerating it from side to side is a pure loss.  Secondly I planned to use the ½ inch x ½ inch neos that I had on hand.  I made the end pieces 20 mm square in cross section so as to be good targets for those neos and minimize the mass of the center piece.  The distance between the slots is ½ inch as well since I choose a ½ inch shaft diameter and this was a good bearing size.  The OD was drawn at 50mm, but the machinist asked to just use 2 inch stock which was close enough.  I had also drawn up a 6.4 mm cam groove that fit nicely between the slots and was to accept a ¼ inch cam follower that would have been mounted centrally and cause the side to side motion as the pieces rotated.  I did not ask to have that groove machined since it would be very expensive (for me) and I wanted to first feel the forces at play.

I have positioned the neos central to the forks, at the ends, towards the middle, etc.  I saw no improvements either way.  If you maximize the force to rotate the end pieces by centering on them, then the force required to slide the center piece is also strongest.  Moving the neos off center appears to weaken both those forces.  I’ve found no way to strengthen one while minimizing the other.

Return iron armature is therefore not helpful since increasing magnet strength increases the force needed to slide the center piece proportionally.

Not sure how you think having the two forks in sync can help?  Maybe I do not understand what you mean by in sync?

In response to your direct suggestions:

(a)   I don’t think scaling the size up gains anything.  It only makes it more cumbersome and dangerous to work on.  And it is contrary to minimizing the mass of the center piece.
(b)   & (c) have both been tried with no apparent improvements.
(d)   I see no contact sticking.  You can slide the end pieces in and out of the slots with virtually no force when compared to the forces applied by the neos.  The slots were ground to their running fit tolerances.  The end pieces were lapped into theirs.  Very precise slip fit.

I think a good way to visualize the problems with this concept is to do so without the end pieces.  Just think what the center piece would want to do if rotated in the presence of the magnets.

I want to play with it for a bit more, but then I would be happy to loan it to you if you want to feel for yourself.

Sadly I do not have access to free machining services in order to try other configurations without considerable expense.  This one build was my present to myself for now, but I can’t afford to do these regularly.

M.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #118 on: April 04, 2011, 10:22:01 PM »

I want to play with it for a bit more, but then I would be happy to loan it to you if you want to feel for yourself.

Sadly I do not have access to free machining services in order to try other configurations without considerable expense.  This one build was my present to myself for now, but I can’t afford to do these regularly.

M.

Thanks for the offer. I was thinking that Butch might be interested
in seeing some alternatives to what he did. He could better compare
loadings etc. I do think that mag. return path through the air is going
to reconnect through the rotor. It would really be nice of him if he
could make something comparable to his unit available for further
experimentation. Kind of tune things up and give a thumbs up or
down relative to his unit. Yours is really a nice looking unit though. He
simulates magnetic flux stuff heavily so I trust he has dimensions
"about" right. I'm afraid the central metal in your unit is going to
be a show stopper though.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline zapjosh

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Re: Break through!
« Reply #119 on: April 15, 2011, 06:17:48 PM »
Very one in the world has to see this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6gaN8gRs5A

 

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