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Solid States Devices => Joule Thief => Topic started by: lasersaber on December 29, 2010, 08:19:43 PM

Title: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on December 29, 2010, 08:19:43 PM
This is the first time I have been able to keep a Joule Thief type device running a CFL on just an electrolytic capacitor.

Video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEXCweMxhk
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 29, 2010, 09:20:21 PM
bravo!  illegitimi non carborundum...
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: ramset on December 30, 2010, 02:41:43 AM
Sir
You must have the patience of a saint,and the touch of a surgeon!
Very tricky to do ! well done thanks for sharing!

Chet
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: happyfunball on December 30, 2010, 02:45:18 AM
Could this not extend battery life exponentially? It's pulling a load, for God's sake.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on December 30, 2010, 08:02:08 AM
@Lasersaber

Great work again !

I can't wait to see the schematic and wonderful video's you will be making .

Mark

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2010, 08:21:52 AM
@lasersaber,

What are the incoming and outgoing voltages and amps. I just wanna see if I'd be able to measure them accurately with my equipment.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lakes on December 30, 2010, 11:17:57 AM
Interesting that it works with the smaller caps, but not the SuperCap.

After the initial "power up" with the battery how long before the light goes out?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on December 30, 2010, 12:39:17 PM
Quote
After the initial "power up" with the battery how long before the light goes out?

I have not really tried to do a record duration. I did do a test duration run once with a fluorescent tube and my 10000uF 10 volt caps filled to 8 volts. The tube stayed lit for 48 minutes. The last 20 minutes the circuit was still ringing but the tube was lit very dimly.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2010, 09:36:41 PM
Wow, you are doing great work.

Is the circuit a combination of the captret circuit you have been using?
(All my stuff is in boxes. Darn! I may need to open the boxes again.)

Thank you again and again,

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on December 31, 2010, 05:13:46 AM
Very nice !   I think this is the first joule out of the hundreds of pages of JT stuff that I could get really excited about.  It looks like you've hit a very nice resonance.   And I think electroyics have 'PFM' yet to be understood....    BTW nice pocket o-scope.  What type/brand/where can those be found?   Cheers !
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: The Observer on January 01, 2011, 08:21:51 PM
Laser,

You are brilliant.

I assume when you say RINGING you mean that You are Resonating the Transformer.
YES !

This works because you are using a Ferromagntic Substance that amplifies the magnetic field of a coil by 1000's of times
 
                     and

You are using Resonance.


Two USEs (Unrecognized Sources of Energy)

Because I don't have time right now, I am posting a portion of a previous post that explains this.
Quote
3. The possible USEs that I am interested in involve these interesting phenomena...

    a. Magnetic Permeability... There is an internal magnetic moment that can be utilized in Ferromagnetic Materials.
         -A coil's magnetic field is amplified by orders of magnitude by the insertion of a Ferro Material. (ie... 100, 000 times)
           * I'm sure you know this is the result of previously randomly oriented magnetic dipoles lining up with the weak field of the coil.

              To comprehend how we tap into this energy, consider a speaker that can exchange magnets.
              The more powerful the magnet, the more sound the speaker emits, yet from the same input.
 
     b. Resonance... The phenomenon that an object will store energy vibrationally,
                               then interact with the surrounding enviroment
                               at an amplitude of vibration consistent with the energy it is storing.

         - When an energy wave is modified to a larger amplitude (without loss of duration)... it is fair to say it has been amplified.
         - When an energy wave (without losing amplitude) is extended.. it is fair to say it has amplified.

         - Two tuning forks ringing louder AND longer than one... is a clear demonstration of sound energy being amplified.
            If you prefer the Dictionary's definiton...
            5. An Intensification and Prolongation of Sound, Especially of Musical Tone, produced by Sympathetic Vibration.

4. When you combine 3a and 3b you get a Resonating Transformer. (I am not doing Ferro Resonance, just to be clear)

    a. When an audio transformer is resonated with a 1.5 V battery, you can light up a 3 V LED on the StepDown Side with ~ 4 V pulses !
        ---> this is only at 1 frequency ... Primary is 900 ohms, Secondary is 8 ohms...<---
    b. Same set up as above but.. the Primary will burn out LEDs with ~90 V pulses.
    c. Because it only happens at 1 frequency, it fair to say that the Energy Output of a Resonating Transformer is Non-Linear.

5. A Joule Thief traditionally uses the crashing magnetic field in a blocking oscillator to create a large voltage pulse.
    a. The Higher the Magnetic Permeability of the Core, the Higher the Internal Mag Field (that crashes), the More Impressive the Output (see 3a)
    b. Extraordinary Feats like lighting a 13 W CFL light bulb for the better part of a day with a SINGLE 1.5 V battery can be done.
        - There are 3 ways to do this that I have seen.
           (1) Use a large High Perm Core (torroid) with lots of turns.
           (2) Use a modified Camera Flash Circuit. .
           (3) Use the output of an Average Joule Thief to Resonate an Auto Ignition Coil. (my favorite !)

Because I have taken alot of guff over the years about these statements (been making them for years),
              I really really appreciate your experiment that shows Resonance and FerroMagnetics are very intersting indeed.

GodSpeed Laser,
                         The Observer
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on January 02, 2011, 02:58:54 PM
I have now been able to make successful replications of my Joule Ringer circuit.  I reduced everything to the minimum number of parts needed.  I found out the the number 2 coil can be an air core coil.  I will post a DIY video with lots of new details and schematic later tonight after I get back from Church.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: The Observer on January 02, 2011, 04:40:54 PM
Laser,

You found out that an air core will work for the second transformer ?

1. Are you resonating the Air Coil also?
2. Does it last as long as the Ferro Core Experiment?

GodSpeed,
               The Observer
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: kooler on January 02, 2011, 05:44:42 PM
lasersaber
 is it just your output from the camera transformer going thru the aircoil and then the secondary of the aircoil back to input..

robbie
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: kooler on January 03, 2011, 02:55:02 AM
kool
your feedback is coming from the neg on the secondary..
weird but kool..


robbie
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: bsibille on January 03, 2011, 03:23:04 AM
Please do post, would love to build this!
Best,
Blane
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: happyfunball on January 03, 2011, 03:49:49 AM
Please do post, would love to build this!
Best,
Blane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLQATOjZhE
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: kooler on January 03, 2011, 03:56:02 AM
his schematic
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on January 03, 2011, 06:47:49 AM
Awesome work lasersaber!   You do very good video's too.  Beside being bifilar and I believe air core are Doc Stiffler's coils different in some other ways?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: bolt on January 03, 2011, 12:59:05 PM
Its quite an interesting. I would like to know the effects of the diodes and how the quantity effects the overall circuit.  Overall its a Joule Thief where the secondary tap is used for feedback on to the base of the transistor. Nothing odd about this part its a normal oscillator. The real magic is in the bifilar coil as that is setup as a negative inductor as the inductance is self canceling and pumps energy back into the supply on alternate cycles that are being sent to the load. Its is an OU device except the COP is not quite enough yet to maintain the losses. It needs to be vastly scaled up so core losses are  reduced.

This circuit is very similar to GENESIS which created about 250 watts OU. Many said it was a hoax but thats another story of partial disclosure.  The tall tower bifilar was the RE recovery device.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 03, 2011, 02:44:23 PM
Congratulations @lasersaber!!!!

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: void109 on January 03, 2011, 05:37:10 PM
I'm confused about the transformer and its function/schematic.  Can anyone post a link to a datasheet for this or a similar transformer?  I'm likely missing the obvious, but I just see a primary with two leads and a secondary with four leads and I have no idea how the secondary is wound, let alone anything about the core material, ratio, etc.  Seems wide open.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 03, 2011, 05:54:36 PM
The transformer appears to be an aa version fuji or larger size than the aaa fuji. Its actually a primary with a center tapped secondary so 5 wires . the sixth connection is open . SO two are the primary and three are the secondary . Maybe a better schematic can be made so other camera transformers might work .i will trace out the aaa transformer when i complete the replication . I want to use leds instead of a cfl bulb . Good work lightsaber and thank you for sharing !
Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: bolt on January 03, 2011, 06:30:32 PM
The only reason i didnt use a center tap on the circuit is becuase i thought it had 2 secondaries. But the library has a center tap IF thats what it is.

If its just a center tapped secondary it makes it very easy to replicate by almost anything. There is nothing special about these transformers. They have a little ferrite core so they can handle higher frequencies for charging the flash cap.

 In fact you can use  ferrite ring like a joule thief. Wind about 100 turns of thin wire, loop it and twist for a center tap then another 100 turns for the secondary. Then make a 10 turn thick wire primary. Almost any decent ratio to give some volts should work it depends how long you want to sit there winding coils!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 03, 2011, 07:29:46 PM
The only reason i didnt use a center tap on the circuit is becuase i thought it had 2 secondaries. But the library has a center tap IF thats what it is.

If its just a center tapped secondary it makes it very easy to replicate by almost anything. There is nothing special about these transformers. They have a little ferrite core so they can handle higher frequencies for charging the flash cap.

 In fact you can use  ferrite ring like a joule thief. Wind about 100 turns of thin wire, loop it and twist for a center tap then another 100 turns for the secondary. Then make a 10 turn thick wire primary. Almost any decent ratio to give some volts should work it depends how long you want to sit there winding coils!
Thank you bolt . I didnt mean your schemitic is wrong . i can read it and apply what i know about those transformers . I remember way back in the jt thread we did pinouts on various modle of the fuji and deturmined there were 5 pins . the primary is 6 to 8 turns on the outside of these transformers so its easy to find  primary however the secondary has to be ohmed out to determin the three legs.  the secondary is about 1750 turns of fine wire so in that respect they are a bit special for their size.Yes we can and have build many rings and they can be used as well i suspect . If you have that symbol in your schemitic  that would make it a bit easier for replicators . on the lightsaber  pictorial i think the two on one side is primary and the three on the bottom are secondary. Attaches is pinout jesus did a while back.Keep in mind this schemitic is covering only a few of the variations of the camera transformers.

Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: bsibille on January 03, 2011, 08:21:03 PM
not to take off topic, but bifilar wound with copper et other rings of Steven Mark's TPU, wound with maybe copper and tinned? But, seems dissimilar copper et other is significant?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: bolt on January 03, 2011, 08:25:48 PM
I been asked to clarify EXACT coil winding details to make these bifilar coils. Is it 2 wire pair wound up at the same time OR 2 separate layers with the second layer wound counter direction and back.

Thanks MK1!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2011, 08:45:45 PM
I been asked to clarify EXACT coil winding details to make these bifilar coils. Is it 2 wire pair wound up at the same time OR 2 separate layers with the second layer wound counter direction and back.

Back and forth 2 wires at a time , at least 6 layers .

Mark
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 04, 2011, 12:06:55 AM
Well my first replication failed . It goes out as soon as the battery is removed . There are some varibles not clear . the coil is clear . the transformer is not . those AA versions are hard to find items as i checked three stores and a camera center and they are all aaa versions with tiny transformers . Sooo. I only have two AA versions and i wont take them apart cause they are already in fixtures and stay lit 28+hours for emergency . If lightsaber is watching i would love to have a camera circuit from your source , Also i am having a hard time finding small 10000uf caps at 10 volts . not a common part in this area. will keep at it .
Gadget.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: bolt on January 04, 2011, 12:40:46 AM
Well my first replication failed . It goes out as soon as the battery is removed . There are some varibles not clear . the coil is clear . the transformer is not . those AA versions are hard to find items as i checked three stores and a camera center and they are all aaa versions with tiny transformers . Sooo. I only have two AA versions and i wont take them apart cause they are already in fixtures and stay lit 28+hours for emergency . If lightsaber is watching i would love to have a camera circuit from your source , Also i am having a hard time finding small 10000uf caps at 10 volts . not a common part in this area. will keep at it .
Gadget.

Caps not important usually 16v are available everywhere the more uF the better its only for storage not a timing device. The little transformers need more clarification i  agree but in essence the bifilar MUST see like 500v spikes because this is the only thing that recovers used energy in the circuit and send it back to recharge the cap like a JT OR it goes off within 1 second under load and no battery. Some people are bound to have trouble getting this to even oscillate especially  using other transistors. Remember at heart its a Joule Thief and all the usual biasing and feedback caps and resistors can be used to get the tranny working.

Later when the finer details worked out. Existing JT's can be enhanced to self runners:)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2011, 03:52:08 AM
I got this form another source

Skaght at nrgtikforum

"      I'm getting the same effect by replacing the bifilar coil completely with a leaky capacitor. I put a ~50 nF cap with 20 MEG ohm resistance in parallel across it and the circuit works!!!! (although the fluorescent flashes a lot more) That's much easier than building a huge bifilar and you don't need any germanium diodes...

I will say that my fluorescent is not very bright, although it wasn't with my bifilar either...  "




He doesn't say how long it works , only Lasersaber could validate officially .

But my guess is that a coil with a high capacitance is needed .

Mark
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: bolt on January 04, 2011, 06:35:42 AM
I found it and without building anything other than SIM's.....The reason why caps and resistors work is because you are setting the DC bias level on the base of the transistor. However without a bifilar coil all you do is set the bias so it works and drains the cap so it works like a normal JT.

The only possible way is IF the bifilar really is adding energy back into the circuit. The diodes set the DC bias and using leaky ones acts like a zener but at 0.3v drop per diode to set the base. In reverse voltage spike the diodes conduct the other way and push the RE charge back towards the capacitor keeping it topped up. SO germanium diodes could be replaced by 1n4007's then set the bias on the transistor properly using resistors.

This is why if you hold the ends of the bifilar coil the light gets brighter as you push more current on the transistor base!

Now at this point we have to assume the bifilar really adds energy back to the system as he spent time already winding several versions and the large ones work best so there IS something going on.

More.......found out ONE 1n4007 should work unless it gets killed by over volts. Break the base and add proper biasing in there and a 100ohm resistor in series with the transformer trigger base lead.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Omnibus on January 04, 2011, 06:43:37 AM
So, why, then, he doesn't place the device in a Faraday cage as someone already suggested?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: bolt on January 04, 2011, 10:02:06 AM
I believe this is the raw circuit.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 04, 2011, 07:28:56 PM
hey bolt . switch the Hv out and the top secondary connection . Hv out would be on top .
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Laserrod on January 05, 2011, 01:57:11 AM
Hi Lasorsaber.
Best FE U-T video I've seen. Great communication and complete narration of important observations.

Do you find the circuit must have a CFL to work at the high levels you've achieved?
Have U tried other than "leaky diodes"?

I believe the plasma with KR-85 gas gives JT that extra kick! Plasma cause charge separation
& CFT has good chance of containing a # of nano curies of KR gas. Try a Phillips CF, read the box for caution notice.

Thanks man.

Paste answer to... also.
I have asked same on your U-T "light keeps....) video
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on January 05, 2011, 07:58:46 PM
@ Laserrod

Thanks for your kind comments.

Quote
Do you find the circuit must have a CFL to work at the high levels you've achieved?

Yes, A CFL seems critical to getting it working.

Quote
Have U tried other than "leaky diodes"?

Yes, as shown in my last video touching the wires works just as well.  I have also used two copper pipes in the ground set 30 feet apart. I have also used citrus fruit peels.  I tried resistors but I did not own any that would work.


Quote
Try a Phillips CF, read the box for caution notice.

I will have to give it a try.

@Everybody

Dragon over on energetic forums has replicated this and is getting 15 minute run times.


Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on January 05, 2011, 11:01:32 PM
@LS

fantastic vid and discovery!  I think you have found something special with this circuit, not we need to understand whats going on in it.  Have you tried 1000uf caps with your ringer?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: mscoffman on January 05, 2011, 11:46:02 PM
@All;

I just wanted to suggest the similarity of this JT circuit to the "IMHOTEP
Emergency Light
” that was used to light a CFL using an (unsatisfactory)
electromagnetic relay to do the oscillating function and an std. automobile
ignition coil (three terminal HV transformer) as the step-up coil. This post
is so others might be able to use some of the ideas. A Web Link follows;

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5296.0

Others found that they were able to connect additional multiple CFL’s in
parallel with the first, without totally disrupting the unit's operation over
“flying” HV leads. This strongly suggest the availability of free electrons
from the environment - extra electrons stimulated to flow in the wire circuit
due to the presents of the initial HV AC signal.

I suggested that using a five sided cube of solarcells located around the
CFL (especially if you can get some of the new Spectrolab 35% efficient cells),
like it should produce a provable and viable OU energy supply.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2011, 05:30:51 AM
@all

Lidmotor second attempt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJrutcVNtbs

Mark

Some thought

It seem also that the direction of the diodes is important , but since he mentioned that they are leaking , it means it works like a single wire both ways , but he got really different results depending on the direction , the diodes have to have a second function . I think is to capture the Bemf and send it back in the coil .

Title: Congratulations LaserSaber
Post by: Lattice333 on January 06, 2011, 08:20:52 AM
@LaserSaber
Congratulations Lasersaber - amazing circuit - never seen anything quite like it. Love your work. PTL  :)
I have replicated and it works just as you show on your videos. Mine will run 15w CFL dimly for 10mins after disconnecting the power source.

@Everyone
I deviated from LaserSabers coil and used a prewound Bedini trifilar and 15000uf. When I have time I will wind a coil as suggested.

There has been alot of speculation about the schematic on this thread. Attached is my version of the schematic together with LaserSabers original drawing. Enjoy. I hope this helps other replicators.

Be encouraged everyone!

Jonathan
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Omnibus on January 06, 2011, 08:29:44 AM
@Lattice333,

Can you place your device in a Faraday cage and see if it will work the same way? Let's get this out of the way.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lattice333 on January 06, 2011, 11:17:43 AM
@Lattice333,

Can you place your device in a Faraday cage and see if it will work the same way? Let's get this out of the way.

Sure. I dropped the circuit on a dinner plate and placed it in the microwave oven. Ran just as easily inside the microwave with the door closed.
Title: Replicated
Post by: Lattice333 on January 06, 2011, 03:19:21 PM
@Everyone

I tried changing from my 15w spiral CFL to a smaller 8w spiral CFL. The smaller CFL would not light at all and I could hear the HV arcing in several places on the transformer.

I then switched to a larger 25w spiral CFL and it worked best of all. I could then raise the starting voltage higher before arcing began. Also it was brighter and ran for 16 minutes after the power supply was removed.

If you are replicating please try starting with 15+watt CFL. I think the circuit sees a small tube diameter as a resistance. Lasersaber got it to work with a small CFL in the video but his coils used much finer gauge wire than my Bedini trifilar (0.8mm) and probably generate a higher voltage to overcome the additional resistance that a small CFL presents.

I have attached a revised schematic.

Hope this helps!

Jonathan
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Omnibus on January 06, 2011, 03:53:29 PM
Sure. I dropped the circuit on a dinner plate and placed it in the microwave oven. Ran just as easily inside the microwave with the door closed.

Great. Thanks. So, now we have to worry about the power balance. What order of magnitude are the current and the voltage, can you tell?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: minoly on January 06, 2011, 05:49:14 PM
Is anyone popping these values into "Spice"?

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LTspice/

it would sure be nice to get some values on some of these coils & CFL's.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: bolt on January 06, 2011, 09:32:30 PM
Spice doesn't recognize Radiant Energy or OU its a closed mathematics system. If you want to do some math calculate the joules required to run a CFL for one second. Now work out the joules in the power cap (its about 3 joules) and multiply the 15 mins you will see its finding some 20,000 joules from "somewhere"
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 07, 2011, 12:48:35 AM
Hi Guys . This is a very interesting project . I posted in the wrong thread my replication and additions to lightsabers joule ringer . I cannot make it ring but it will reguage and keep the battery and cap the same volts for over 16 hours . I see the effect and i am waiting for the correct caps . Somthing to note is that supercaps and ultra boost caps actually run down faster with this circuit than a rechargable battery . max time i could get out og a 650 farad 2.7 volt ultra cap with a 3500AMP reserve was 30 minuits :(
a C cell ni-mh battery went 16 hours and had no drop in voltage before and after standing volts . WOW ! so here is the link  . I am fusionchip on EGforum
Gadget
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg269827#msg269827
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: minoly on January 07, 2011, 04:41:35 AM
Spice doesn't recognize Radiant Energy or OU its a closed mathematics system. If you want to do some math calculate the joules required to run a CFL for one second. Now work out the joules in the power cap (its about 3 joules) and multiply the 15 mins you will see its finding some 20,000 joules from "somewhere"

Isn't this a type of RLC? even if spice does not recognize OU, it can still figure out the necessary values to get things to balance out (in a near ballpark), that is except for that CFL :-)
IF LS or anyone else that is getting positive results could share the H values, that would be a start.
We've seen the Tesla Switch in spice, the SSG, and several others. It helps, only wish we new how to use it... perhaps this is a calling.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 07, 2011, 07:20:54 PM
Happy new year to the community!!!

@lasersaber

My question is: How many bifilar turns the coil has?
I ask that because if you said it on your videos I could not catch it.

Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2011, 08:20:43 PM
Happy new year to the community!!!

@lasersaber

My question is: How many bifilar turns the coil has?
I ask that because if you said it on your videos I could not catch it.

Thank you in advance.

Hi Jesus

Laser didn't say , i wish he did . But my bet is that he has not found his best coil yet .  But what fun would that be , we will have to do it like in the old days in the JT tread, trail and error . Or evolution .

I still have hope this old site is still alive with good experimenter , well the sky seems the limit now ...

Mark
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 08, 2011, 12:23:10 AM
@mk1

You are the master on that part.  The best coil maker a few years back.
At least there are still good experimenters to get the job done!

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on January 08, 2011, 01:34:55 AM
@mk1

You are the master on that part.  The best coil maker a few years back.
At least there are still good experimenters to get the job done!

Jesus

I agree and ill help out soon too.

 ;D
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2011, 02:47:56 AM
@Jesus

I would not go that far but thanks , my luck was that a wise man told me at a young age ...

 " No one knows the about coil anymore , that is a shame you can do magic with them ... "

I am still learning  :)

Mark

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 08, 2011, 05:14:06 AM
Hi Guys . Jesus i have another schematic that eliminates the bifailar coil i would love for you to fix it Please . I.ll upload shortly .
I agree also that Mark is the king of coils ;) for real .
here is a scope shot on my hazens coil lightsaber Jringer version 4 with no bifialar.its been running for over 40 hours lighting a cfl and led off the secondary . on a rechargable c cell . can someone decipher what i am seeing here .Looks like a large negitive spike(reguage pulse) on the bottom going back to the emmiter and battery . Top wave is checked  where collector meets the cathode of the first germanium in a chain of 5 and one 220 ohn resistor  . then bottom wave is checked at the reverse germanium where it connects to pot which is the chain of components folllow . the 1.0mfd cap is not a  polorized cap . .
Jesus here is my mess can you fix it  :) just eliminate the bifialar if you could please . You do so neat work .
Gadget :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on January 08, 2011, 02:53:22 PM
Gadget, how long will it last without the battery?  Just off a quick charge?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 08, 2011, 02:53:36 PM
Guys we are here to succeed.

@stprue, @mk1 and @gadgetmall also all the others that want to get in.

@gadgetmall I will mix the other schematic with the new one.

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on January 08, 2011, 04:17:26 PM
Hi Guys . This is a very interesting project . I posted in the wrong thread my replication and additions to lightsabers joule ringer . I cannot make it ring but it will reguage and keep the battery and cap the same volts for over 16 hours . I see the effect and i am waiting for the correct caps . Somthing to note is that supercaps and ultra boost caps actually run down faster with this circuit than a rechargable battery . max time i could get out og a 650 farad 2.7 volt ultra cap with a 3500AMP reserve was 30 minuits :(
a C cell ni-mh battery went 16 hours and had no drop in voltage before and after standing volts . WOW ! so here is the link  . I am fusionchip on EGforum
Gadget
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg269827#msg269827

I am not sure why you are surprised at the performance difference between the battery and the capacitor.

The total energy in a typical rechargeable C cell can be as much as (8000 mA-H)(1.25 volts)(60)(60) which is 36,000 Joules of energy, most of which will be delivered at 1.25 volts... the voltage won't drop in a modern battery until it's nearly discharged.

A 650 Farad capacitor charged to 2.7 volts contains about 4750 Joules -- but you can't use all that to power your Joule Thief because the voltage starts dropping right away when you use it....and the JT shuts off at some threshold voltage, say 0.7 volts. So you can only IN THE BEST CASE use something like 4000 Joules or less of the capacitor's total energy before the voltage drops to the point where the JT circuit shuts off.

In addition, since your "regauging" LOL spikes far exceed the voltage rating of the capacitor, you are likely damaging it by feeding them back into the cap. Many modern capacitors can "self-heal" to a certain extent so a few radical low energy overvoltages won't kill them. But that voltage rating on the cap should be respected.... for correct operation you should NEVER feed the capacitor a signal with more p-p voltage than the cap is rated for.

Batteries you can low-energy spike charge all day long and it will take a while before you damage them significantly.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 08, 2011, 04:44:19 PM
I am not sure why you are surprised at the performance difference between the battery and the capacitor.

The total energy in a typical rechargeable C cell can be as much as (8000 mA-H)(1.25 volts)(60)(60) which is 36,000 Joules of energy, most of which will be delivered at 1.25 volts... the voltage won't drop in a modern battery until it's nearly discharged.

A 650 Farad capacitor charged to 2.7 volts contains about 4750 Joules -- but you can't use all that to power your Joule Thief because the voltage starts dropping right away when you use it....and the JT shuts off at some threshold voltage, say 0.7 volts. So you can only IN THE BEST CASE use something like 4000 Joules or less of the capacitor's total energy before the voltage drops to the point where the JT circuit shuts off.

In addition, since your "regauging" LOL spikes far exceed the voltage rating of the capacitor, you are likely damaging it by feeding them back into the cap. Many modern capacitors can "self-heal" to a certain extent so a few radical low energy overvoltages won't kill them. But that voltage rating on the cap should be respected.... for correct operation you should NEVER feed the capacitor a signal with more p-p voltage than the cap is rated for.

Batteries you can low-energy spike charge all day long and it will take a while before you damage them significantly.
The "Surprize is it dont like super Capacitors or ultracapacitors . With a 650 farad  2.7 volts i have circuits like this that will run for days but on this circuit it will die within 30 minuits .I am not going to get into andiscussion on ultra caps every again they can and do hold high amperage and release it slowly .The reason they will not work on this circuit is because there internal resistance is very low,close to a Short  where as  certain electrolytic capacitors and my ni mh batteries are high resistance. Also The circuit is a variant of Lasersabers who can run his circuit practaly indefinatly off just a 10000uf capacitor .We dont care about "damage"we care about running on less than a milliamp  and yes without any feed back others have called reguaging so i will also it wont last long . ANd batteries can take low or high energy spikes for years beyond there normal life. In fact every battery i have ever used was conditioned to take those spikes from bedini  who know the reguaging effect better than anyone .This includes Throw away alkaline.
IF you did any experiment with a fuji you know that the most you can light a cfl with an aa battery maximium time was 18 to 24 hours . well this circuit goes far and beyound that . THe one  using hazens coil is now going on 39 hours and the battery is still 1.2 volts standing .The circuit is in test now but the last test i did with lasersabers coil plus hazens  was still oscillating when the cfl stopped lighting . IF some one replicates it would be nice to see how long 100's of leds instead of cfl to see if any energy is being recycled .

Stpru i am waiting for the right caps so i have nocapacitor to ring it with . this is why i am just keeping busy untile parts arrive .
@Jesus  Thanks the last circuit is still running a cfl brightley for 39+ hours on one cell

Albert
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 08, 2011, 05:01:37 PM
@gadgetmall

The resistor that is at the top of the IN60 diodes reads 1kohm but on the explanation you wrote 220ohm.
Which one you want as the label of that resistor?
The other question is: What does it say on the words at the secondary coil?

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 08, 2011, 05:08:09 PM
@Jesus  the resistor in this circuit on the hazens coil in series with 5 germanium diodes is 7 k . all the other resistors are the same as last . a 1 k pot and the other is 22 ohms .
thanks so much .

Albert
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 08, 2011, 05:20:57 PM
@gadgetmall

What does it say on the words at the secondary coil?

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on January 08, 2011, 05:26:53 PM
Ah. I see. You aren't concerned about input/output energy balances at all. You are simply trying to energize a CF bulb enough to glow visibly for the longest time. Well, it's very simple actually, and your circuit is converging on the correct way to do it. You use recognized principles of induction and resonance to produce voltage pulses that are high enough to energize the phosphors in the bulb to whatever brilliance you like, then you shorten those pulses to reduce the energy in them until the bulb begins to dim visibly. The phosphor will continue to glow for much longer than the applied pulse, if you give it enough voltage. You can arrive at the correct values for your components by simple calculations or by substitution of values into a sim or a real circuit, as you are doing. If you get the frequency right you won't even need to hook the bulb up with wires, it will light wirelessly. See my videos for ample proof of this.

But you will get higher voltages, shorter pulse times, and much better efficiency if you use air-core coils properly coupled and energizing pulses to the coil's primary that have as fast a rise and fall time as possible: that is, rectangular pulses. This requires careful layout and component choices because stray inductances can destroy your waveshape.
The advantage of the type of circuit you are working with here is that it is self-triggering and makes a fairly good spike on the output. There's a lot that can be done yet to optimize it though.

You are right about the relative internal resistances of the battery vs. the capacitor, of course. That is why the capacitor can produce a faster pulse and a better risetime into the primary, and it is also one reason that the capacitor in your circuit runs down quickly relative to a battery. The comparisons you are making to other circuits that run a long time on a capacitor are really not relevant. I've got an LED simply hooked up across a 5 Farad 3.5 volt cap that will stay lit for hours, so what, and a JT that I just threw together out of spare parts -- I used an unmodified miniature toroid already wound from a PC power supply -- will run for a couple of days on a dead AA battery, so what.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2011, 06:02:48 PM
@TinselKoala

I hope you have ideas on how to improve the laser saber circuit , the one the lights a Cfl on a 10 000 mf for over 30 mins .

@gadget

I got a idea , lets say we get it kicking for over 30 min like lasersaber , we could build a really small jt on a watch battery to charge the cap to 9 v or so . I believe i can do this less then 5 seconds , so the actual battery would only need to work for 4 min a day . But i am sure i have other ways of charging a secondary cap ...

I was thinking what if you put the air core coil over the fuji transformer , it should do interesting stuff it could capture the em field with out screwing with it if well placed . I was also wondering if the voltage was high enough to put a sparkgap parallel to the diodes , to act as a sort of resistor .

Mark

edit
I just came back from the store they did not have 10000 , pretty hard to get bummer , but got 20 of 22 000(0.022F) at 10 cent each , i know they are not good ,but maybe if i make cap bank series and parallel it might improve my chances . Plus only 2 bucks  ???



 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 08, 2011, 06:36:15 PM
Hi Mark . I have My ideas about using the circuit Ground loop made for me on my previous Heater light project . If we can get the cfl to light for 30+mins like lightsaber then this circuit alex made can be programmed to give a pulse back to the electrocaps and possible run for a year or more on an aa battery . The circuit only requires 60 microamps at 1 volt to run all those chips on that board . I do have about 20 boards he made and will gladly pass them out if i can find wher i put them .
ALSO , @TinselKoala
 there are other things at work here and this might apply to reguaging and even verify the recharge effect of a benidi . Its a signal on the plates to a battery or capacitor.
Check this out .its a repost .
a New way to charge batteries is in the works . It takes the charge time down from hours to mins using a 25 gighertz signal on the plates to accept ions easly . Check this link http://www.physorg.com/news187554124.html

As a Ham radio operator this is very interesting quote:researchers simulated the lithium-ion battery-charging process by simulating the intercalation (i.e. “insertion”) of lithium ions into the battery’s graphite anode. Although intercalation is just one part of the charging process (along with diffusion), it dominates the charging time.

In the charging process, lithium ions first diffuse within the battery’s electrolyte until they reach the graphite anode. At this interface, ions must overcome an energy barrier in order to be intercalated into the anode.

In their simulations, Hamad and his team found that an additional oscillating electric field can lower this energy barrier, enabling lithium ions to intercalate more quickly into the anode. The oscillating field also increases the diffusion rate, which helps further reduce the overall charging time, albeit to a lesser extent.

This may have somthing to do with the effect i am getting also with reguaging . there is a signal stimulating the plates..

Also the CFL lamp is bright enuff to read by and light a room and this circuit will light the cfl with one wire .I noticed that right off . Its the feedback i am interested in that is prolonging and adding to the transistor running power  is what i am inteseted in .The Modification i am doing to LIGHTSABERS CIRCUIT is simular in that i am adding power back in the circuit at some frequency thru the cfl ionized gas  and the further rectify it with a germanium diod to make a really big negitive spike  on top of a signal..

Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 08, 2011, 06:37:41 PM
@gadgetmall

What does it say on the words at the secondary coil?

Jesus
Hi it says to LEDS -- EXTRA POWER .. it could go to a bridge i suspect also . thank you Jesus .
Albert
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: kooler on January 09, 2011, 04:59:10 AM
ok
i final got a fuji transformer that lights a cfl bright and it was the camera everyone told us not to buy..
and it will do 40 ma's with a 9 watt cfl.. and it is the AAA battery camera.. it has a ver small transformer in it..
i strip off every thing on board and breadboarded it and it work perfect..
now i can go back to working on this lasersaber thingy..
i also found a awesome transistor.. i was stripping some laptop psu's down and found it..
it is a 2sc2334-y  works good for low volt and current or high power.. its a to-220
i was running 12 volts thru it with my other device with no heatsink..

sorry if it is off topic..

robbie
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 09, 2011, 01:21:55 PM
@gadgetmall

I do not understand why you say that it has no bifilar, when the toroid is based on a bifilar winding.
But here it is,

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 09, 2011, 04:06:38 PM
Thats it! I appreciate you Jesus , thanks . I meant no lasersaber bifialar(air core) when i labled it that and i know i have a weird way of labeling stuff but it was someting i could remember . .The only thing is different on your art is i use 5 germaniums but if someone wants to build it they can try as many as they like . This one has ran over 40 hours and still running a CFl light  . there is something to his discovery as adding another coil really does reduce or recycle the power needed to run it with good light  . I noticed on another one i am making using air core coils i made after it starts i can dissconnect the collector and one wire from the top germaniums bifialar connection and it still lights a neon on one battery . . I really do not undrestand that at all. .i see no way it could still oscillate without those connections unless there is some serious capacitance in the coil and the circuit board i am using .  .
Kooler glad you are in the ballgame now . I am using aaa fuji also . i just got two old aa fugi circuits in a pack of two cameras. they have the neon. but havent tore them up yet . One aaa fugi will not light the cfl and its hooked up exactly like the one above but it lights a neon .  . there must be a defect in some of the transformers or it need more primary windings . I am having a blast messing with it because i beat my old time running one on an single cell. The c battery i have is rated 2500mah and so is my aa battery so the size of the battery dosnt matter if they are rated the same . When the power goes off  i'll have good light . It goes off a lot here as i am far away from a town and there is still lots of trees hangingon wires for miles . I don't think they will ever run high speed internet here :(
Albert
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on January 09, 2011, 07:31:55 PM
I have been trying to understand what is going on in this circuit.

There is alot I do not understand about how it works

I do have a theory about the string of leaky diodes.

In my opinion the string of diodes is just raising the inductance so the impulses can do their thing.
If I am right a LED array of the right size might work well
A small high voltage capacitor might work well too. (probably less than  .1uF )

I have 3  AA camera circuits from E Goldmine somewhere around here .
When I find them I will give this circuit a try.


gary

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 09, 2011, 07:44:46 PM
I have been trying to understand what is going on in this circuit.

There is alot I do not understand about how it works

I do have a theory about the string of leaky diodes.

In my opinion the string of diodes is just raising the inductance so the impulses can do their thing.
If I am right a LED array of the right size might work well
A small high voltage capacitor might work well too. (probably less than  .1uF )

I have 3  AA camera circuits from E Goldmine somewhere around here .
When I find them I will give this circuit a try.


gary
Hey Gary i tried those and i could not get them to work off board . the transformer has only 4 pins and it used 6 other components including two inductors to make it oscillate. Best way on these i havent tried is to do it on board.
Albert
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on January 10, 2011, 01:39:29 AM
4 CFLs + 80 LEDs running on one 32000uF 20V Capacitor.  Runtime is just over 5 minutes on one capacitor.  I have now learned how to use multiple bifilar coils to my advantage in this circuit.  It may be possiple to use something other than bifilar coils but I have found them to work best for me so far.  I will post a video soon.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: shylo on January 10, 2011, 01:45:14 AM
FANTASTIC............shylo
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 10, 2011, 03:37:30 AM
No way . Could you teach us here how to wind a good coil Please !.We see you improving your circuit and we are struggling to get just one going:)

Albert
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on January 10, 2011, 04:11:46 AM
@Mk1: Yep, use air core coils and try for higher voltages, that will help. Also even at these "low" frequencies, improving pulse rise and fall times will help efficiencies a lot. This means cleaning up layouts and paying attention to stray inductances, as well as minimizing the inductances of the operating coils.

@gadgetmall: one of the things about true bifilars that isn't always appreciated is that they have much higher self-capacitance than a normally wound coil with the same wire. You can do lots of interesting things with resonating air core bifilar coils.
Thanks for the battery charging link...good stuff....

@lasersaber: nice work !! now if you can just do it wirelessly....   ;)

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on January 10, 2011, 03:15:52 PM
Joule Ringer update video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiaxDJuw4-Q
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 10, 2011, 04:55:29 PM
@lasersaber

You are really a good experimenter!!

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: tagor on January 10, 2011, 05:17:34 PM
@lasersaber: nice work !! now if you can just do it wirelessly....   ;)

this one ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLQATOjZhE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLQATOjZhE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Taylor1992 on January 10, 2011, 05:48:54 PM
Hey everyone, I got tired of jumping around everyone's pages on youtube, so I went ahead and made a new account called JouleRinger.
The Account info is [User name: jonathan_michel32@yahoo.com] [Password: jouleringer]

Let me know if you do not want your video's posted on the account, or just remove them yourself.

It would really be nice if everyone could post videos about any progress with this circuit on there ;)

Either way, I'll continue to update the account whenever I have some spare time.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on January 10, 2011, 06:50:22 PM
I like your idea but I prefer to keep my videos on my channel.  In the past I've had problems when others copied my videos (such as them selling scam information in connection with my video).  I'm not worried that you or anyone here would do so, but I'd prefer to stick to my policy.  Besides that, I also make a small amount from the ads that play on the bottom of my videos.  It's not much, but it helps pay for wire and other stuff I use in the experiments.  What I did do is go and add my joule ringer videos as favorites in your youtube channel.  That should accomplish the same goal.  Thanks for taking the time to do this.

Best regards,
LaserSaber
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: shylo on January 10, 2011, 10:47:34 PM
Hi Lasersaber ,It took me all day but I finally got to watch your latest video ,totally amazing!! I see how you added a secondary coil because you said you burnt out a couple of transformers . Can you give more info on what types of transformer can be used , were they all identical or is there some tolerance there, also pin #'s. I wish I had half the talent you have keep up the great work!.......I have two caps that are 12000uf 56wv ,is this 56 volts??They charge up to 5volts after 15mins hooked to 2.4volt water battery, does this make any sense??......sorry for rambiling just have a thousand thoughts running through my brain,you can probably smell the smoke lol..........thanx shylo
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on January 11, 2011, 12:38:09 AM
Fantastic vid LS! WOW

This circuit seems so simple, I bet you could run this thing off of a solar calculator cell because it seems to drain so slowly.

Keep up the inspiring work
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: The Observer on January 11, 2011, 07:34:08 AM
Joule Ringers,

---> Thanks to everyone for your research and experimentation. ! <---

I have a suggestion, I think Gadget has mentioned something to this effect.
However, I would like to state my version of it.

Use an Untampered Camera Circuit to charge the Joule Ringer's Capacitor intermittently... with a 1.5 V Battery.

                                                Fuji Camera Output ----> Capacitor -----> Joule Ringer

                                        Because the basic Camera Circuit can charge a 300 uf Cap to 100 V
                                                       in about one second from a 1.5 V Battery,
                                                                   this might be a good idea.

GodSpeed,
                The Observer
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 11, 2011, 01:15:09 PM
@observer

Exactly that is what I am trying to do.

To have a high voltage circuit that fires itself once each minute or once each hour to replenish the power source with a strong spike that will be accepted by the running battery without affecting its work and maintaining the circuit self running until the battery gets to its charge discharge limit.

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: neptune on January 11, 2011, 04:06:39 PM
@the Observer. Charging the cap to 100 volts will almost certainly blow your transistor .
@ lasersabre . Not everyone has a camera transformer . What are your thoughts on making your own on a toroidal core . Could you perhaps suggest a suitable core and turns ratio ?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on January 11, 2011, 05:28:06 PM
Hello i have a thought about torroids . we have done that and been there . The torroid you will need cost 25-50 dollars from what i remember . If you search jeanna's light you will see somewhere in the middle of the joule thief thread that we all finally got a replacment for a fuji transformer . unfortunatly they are 10 times the cost of a 5 dollar disposable camer and are LARGE high permability rings somewhere arount 4 to 5 inches in diameter and are very special . other core did not work no matter how many turns of copper . Lasersaber may have other thoughts but you can ask almost anyone here who has lit Cfls with Toroids and they will all tell you the same thing and that is it is way more expensive and time consuming . Also fuji camers are 7 to 8 dollars for a pack of two anywhere .

Albert
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: neptune on January 11, 2011, 05:41:15 PM
@Gadgetmall . Thanks for that info.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: The Observer on January 11, 2011, 06:01:30 PM
nievesoliveras,

I said...
Quote
Use an Untampered Camera Circuit to charge the Joule Ringer's Capacitor intermittently... with a 1.5 V Battery.

                                                Fuji Camera Output ----> Capacitor -----> Joule Ringer

                                        Because the basic Camera Circuit can charge a 300 uf Cap to 100 V
                                                       in about one second from a 1.5 V Battery,
                                                                   this might be a good idea.
You said,
Quote
Exactly that is what I am trying to do.
Brilliant.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
neptune,

You said,
Quote
@the Observer. Charging the cap to 100 volts will almost certainly blow your transistor .
Probably true... admittedly a great demonstration showing a plain camera circuit is something worth pondering over !
However, perhaps the camera circuit runs for like 1/8th of a second.. to charge the cap to desired voltage (say 15 Volts).

Best Regards,
                    The Observer
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 11, 2011, 08:03:05 PM
Starting with a SlayerExciter circuit with tower-coil, pancake-coil and a MPSA06 transistor, I tried to replicate LserSaber's idea with the bifilar coil on the basis of the transistor.

At 4 Volt and with the bifilar coil L3 on the basis of the transistor the circuit uses about 5 times less power than the basic SlayerExciter (about 10 mA versus about 50 mA), but the little 220V-FL-tube is also a bit dimmer.

The bifilar coil L3 has too little windings (only 20 turns). I will wind a better one (similar to LaserSaber's coils) for further tests. And it is a bit of problem how to terminate the bifilar coil L3. I finally used a 1 M resistor and a 33 pF capacitor. Touching the two ends works best.

This experiment shows, that one can reproduce the effect with air coils too (instead of using a little transformer). It needs further work, specially measurements with a scope, to find out what is happening.

What I have seen so far, the bifilar coil on the basis of the transistor reduces the oscillation frequency of the circuit dramatically.

Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 11, 2011, 08:56:21 PM
@conradelektro

There is also another sec exciter that uses just a small camera trigger transformer and a couple of aluminum trays and works very well at lighting cfls wireless.

Maybe a combination of the three configurations would be a good thing.

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on January 12, 2011, 01:18:57 AM
Jesus here are a few of the vid's you were referring to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXI7B0j0Ajc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXI7B0j0Ajc&feature=related

and here's one I did using a large cap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI3t8JcAfjw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 12, 2011, 03:11:55 AM
@stprue

Nice equipment you have and good work you have done.
The playlist of your videos is kind of slow on my machine.
I saw as many as I could.

The how to make a sec is the one configuration I was talking about with a camera trigger.

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on January 12, 2011, 11:46:46 AM
This post is a response to a post from Lidmotor on the other forum in regards to his new video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5CKK_lFoZw


@Lidmotor

Great job! I have seen those same exciter effects on all my units.

Now that you have made a working bifilar coil I am sure you can see why I did not really feel the need to try and give exact specs for making one. I had a lot of bifilar coils just sitting around my shop from NS coil projects. Because of this I had a lot of them on hand to test with and they all worked pretty well. I think I first noticed this "Joule Ringer" effect a long time ago while trying to power an exciter with a dry NS coil. Because the NS coil was made with cotton covered wire the mostly dry cotton must have acted like the leaking diodes because I just hooked up to the two outer wires and left the two inner wires free. Anyone who has worked with NS coils very much knows that they also act like a capacitor. In the end I had that exciter running on almost nothing it ran the tube lit for a couple days on a 650F Bcap while dropping in voltage very little. At the time I did not know what was really happening. So later when I decided to try and get a Fuji circuit running on capacitors alone it was pretty natural to try throwing a NS coil in the mix. Since I had a lot of coils sitting around including non galvanic ones, like the floral wire coil you just made, it did not take very long to notice this effect all over again. It's kind of funny how one thing leads to another.

@everybody
I started using a tip31 and an avromenko plug feeding back to the Cap from the lights. With this setup I can run it on well over 100V input with no problems. The tip31 stays stone cold. I will show it in my next video.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 12, 2011, 10:45:20 PM
Now it runs about 1 minute on a total of 20.000 μF caps:

Using a better bifilar coil on the basis of the transistor helped. The bifilar coil (3 layers of about 70 turns each, 0.5 mm enameled copper wire, on a 25 mm diameter plastic pipe) allows a 25 Volt power supply. The circuit uses about 10 mA at 25 Volt. The circuit needs a higher Voltage (more than 10 Volt) to work well.

Termination of the bifilar coil still poses a problem. Because I do not have any 1N60 diodes, I used a wet paper towel, which kind of works. One end is in the wet part and the other in a dryer part of the paper towel. If both ends are in the wet part, power consumption (and brightness of the lamp) shoots up. Be careful, shortening the ends of the bifilar coil burns the transistor with a bang (also using diodes in the wrong direction).

I found little fly back transformers (from these cold cathode lamp sets which I bought a few years ago http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/998859/KALT-KATHODE-10CM-BLAU/SHOP_AREA_17692&promotionareaSearchDetail=005) and will continue with them (because the big tower coil is not very practical).

Xee2's ideas look very good too. I ordered some surplus fly back transformers (from old PC monitors  http://oppermann-electronic.de/html/fernsehersatzteile.html ZT1 and ZT2).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: slayer007 on January 13, 2011, 12:07:01 AM
Now it runs about 1 minute on a total of 20.000 μF caps:

Using a better bifilar coil on the basis of the transistor helped. The bifilar coil (3 layers of about 70 turns each, 0.5 mm enameled copper wire, on a 25 mm diameter plastic pipe) allows a 25 Volt power supply. The circuit uses about 10 mA at 25 Volt. The circuit needs a higher Voltage (more than 10 Volt) to work well.

Termination of the bifilar coil still poses a problem. Because I do not have any 1N60 diodes, I used a wet paper towel, which kind of works. One end is in the wet part and the other in a dryer part of the paper towel. If both ends are in the wet part, power consumption (and brightness of the lamp) shoots up. Be careful, shortening the ends of the bifilar coil burns the transistor with a bang (also using diodes in the wrong direction).

I found little fly back transformers (from these cold cathode lamp sets which I bought a few years ago http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/998859/KALT-KATHODE-10CM-BLAU/SHOP_AREA_17692&promotionareaSearchDetail=005) and will continue with them (because the big tower coil is not very practical).

Xee2's ideas look very good too. I ordered some surplus fly back transformers (from old PC monitors  http://oppermann-electronic.de/html/fernsehersatzteile.html ZT1 and ZT2).

Greetings, Conrad


Nice one Conrad.

A variable capacitor from the emitter to the base will help with current intake also.

Also removing the LED( But not the diodes) and replace it with a coil the same size as L2 coil(I use a pancake coil the same as the L2 coil).This will make a big difference when running it on low voltage like one AA battery.

You can also add another tower and put the second pancake coil around it.And collect power from the two open ends of the second tower.

Maybe put the second pancake coil around your bifilar coil. ;)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on January 13, 2011, 12:18:13 AM
@stprue

Nice equipment you have and good work you have done.
The playlist of your videos is kind of slow on my machine.
I saw as many as I could.

The how to make a sec is the one configuration I was talking about with a camera trigger.

Jesus

Sorry about the slow speed, I upload in hi def.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on January 13, 2011, 01:39:49 AM
Just a thought for lasersaber or others who have been having success with getting CFL's lit to maybe make this a self runner.  I've noticed CFL's do power solar cells fairly well as opposed to LED'S which barely can move a voltmeter on most solar cells.  I just laid a 20 watt CFL on a very small solar cell and got 17.98 volts although only about 2.5 ma.  That is running full brightness from mains power but maybe 4 of them at lower brightness would do that much or more. 
   
   I know solar cells are very inefficient and there may be other ways to harness the energy but no use in throwing away the light if it could tip the scales to the point of self running. 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on January 13, 2011, 09:37:18 AM
Finally the sweet smell of success :D   That is after blowing out my Fuji transistor after about a 1 or 2 second run.  My Fuji AA camera had a D2607 transistor.  It wasn't working but after some playing around and reseating the transistor on my board it fired up the 14 watt CFL quite bright but instead of using a cap on that try (after reseating ) I was using a 12 volt Ni-cad pack at about 13.5 volts.  The magic smoke appeared in about 1 second.  I tried a couple 2n2222a but no luck.  Next up a IRF640N - I'll try anything.  I'm sure this is not a great choice but success!  It was dimmer than with the Fuji transistor but this one lasted and lasted.  I got 4 minutes and 35 seconds on a 40,000 uf cap charged to 13.55 volts.  I used a good 1N4937 diode paralled with a 2.0 Megohm resistor across the bifilar.  The bifilar BTW is an oddity itself as it's one wrapping on a roughly 8" diameter toroid made of copper tubing (the type used for coolers which is 1/4" inside diameter) and the tubing is about 15 turns making an 8" diameter toroid outside with inside about 6" diameter.   Light went out when the cap reached 3.3 volts on this one
   I also ran the test with one 8200 uf cap and that lasted 47 seconds with a starting charge of 13.3 volts.
Another test with a 31,000 uf cap with a starting charge of 12.15 volts lasted 3 minutes 25 seconds.  All the caps of have are quite old and have kicked around a lot with a fair bit of abuse I'd say. 
   I had some fairly odd results using a 10,000 uf cap charged to 13.5 volts.  In both cases it blew out my IRF640N.   It had less charge than the 40,000 uf cap so I don't know what happened there. 
   Fascinating circuit.  I hope I can find an affordable transistor that can run this brighter beside the Fuji.  I think the Fuji would have lasted if I had started with the cap only and used a lower voltage.  Did any one else have a D2607 out of a Fuji camera?

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 13, 2011, 10:44:13 AM
Update on the wet paper towel (look at my last post four posts up):

I had some success replacing the wet paper towel (terminating the bifilar coil on the base of the transistor) with a resistor:

25 Volt , 200 K  --> power consumption about 20 mA (runs about 60 seconds when switched off)

25 Volt , 100 K  --> power consumption about 40 mA (runs about 30 seconds when switched off)

12,5 Volt, 200 K  --> power consumption about 10 mA (runs about 30 seconds when switched off)

12,5 Volt, 50 K --> power consumption about 40 mA (runs about 10 seconds when switched off)

When the power supply is switched off the brightness of the lamp decreases slowly till it goes out completely.


@ LaserSaber:

Did you ever try a resistor around 100 K instead of the four 1N60 diodes to terminate the bifilar coil (on the base of the Transistor)?


@ slayer007:

The number of turns (9 to 12) and the thickness of the wire (thicker is better) for the pancake coil seem to be very critical in a Slayer circuit. I still have not got an optimal pancake coil. Winding a 2.5 mm2 plastic insulated wire (normally used for wall sockets in a 220 Volt installation) in a loose spiral (about 9 to 12 turns) around the tower seems to work equally well.


Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on January 13, 2011, 01:04:46 PM
I am in general pleased with the progress being made in this thread. Keep up the good work ! We are all learning a lot, I hope.

The reason the MOSFET works well in this circuit is that it has a faster switching time and a lower on-state resistance than the stock transistor. It's more expensive though. There is a small cheap MOSFET that might work well in the circuit, the 2n7000. You will need a resistor in series with the gate, start at 10K and work down until the mosfet switches nicely. This might be the reason for the failure of the IRF640, if you didn't use a gate resistor; if they see a voltage spike on the gate they can fail easily. It's possible that the smaller cap delivered its pulse more quickly and caused an inductive spike to hit the gate, whereas the larger cap with the same or even more charge on it might have made a slower pulse hence less voltage in the spike, so the mosfet survived. Also, the gate can be protected by a reverse-biased Zener that will shunt a spike to ground (the mosfet source pin).

The pancake coil is a really good place to use the bifilar geometry that Tesla patented in #512,340. I've got some vids where I compare the performance of a Tesla bifilar pancake with a normally-wound spiral pancake using the same wire and the difference is obvious. The interturn capacitance of the bifilar is much higher and so the coil stores more energy, partitioning it into the magnetic and electrical fields around the coil.
I think this makes the square-wave response of the coil faster, which in turn helps the induction in any tuned secondary nearby.

The wet paper towel is a neat idea. I think it's sort of a nonlinear semiconductor element, functioning as a diode/resistor. It might be interesting to stick another lead in there and see if you can get some transistor action out of it !!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on January 13, 2011, 08:04:39 PM
TinselKoala,  Thanks for the explanations on the results I was seeing and thanks for the suggestions.  This is definitely a fun circuit to work with.  I see it even caught Bedini's interest where he posted briefly in a Joule ringer thread on another forum.  And thank you again Lasersaber for finding this!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on January 13, 2011, 08:50:41 PM
 TinselKoala,  As luck would have it I just found a 2n7000 on an old circuit board.  I'll try it later and report here how it works if I can get it unsoldered without damaging it.  Thanks again for the tips. 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: shylo on January 14, 2011, 03:27:39 PM
Hi e2, could you possibly post a picture of the 2n7000 ,so I know what to look for on the old circut boards? .I scrounge all my componets,half the time I don't know what I'm looking at........thanx .....shylo
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gyulasun on January 14, 2011, 08:32:34 PM
Hi e2, could you possibly post a picture of the 2n7000 ,so I know what to look for on the old circut boards? .I scrounge all my componets,half the time I don't know what I'm looking at........thanx .....shylo

Hi shylo,

here is a small picture on it:
http://www2.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/2N7000TA/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv4eh0jmGe023MliyXefJyw9eRs0eHX0dI%3d 

You can also see it in its data sheet:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N7000.pdf

Gyula
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on January 14, 2011, 08:44:50 PM
Yep it's just one of those small black plastic looking ones like gyulasun posted in that pic from mouser.  It has the number 2N7000  on the face.  Unfortunately I haven't been able to find my solder sucker and in the process of removing it broke a leg right at the base.  I tried soldering one back on but I think it's heat damaged now.  So I never got to try it. 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 14, 2011, 10:55:50 PM
Update on the SlayerExciter type Joule Ringer (look at my older posts, 7 and 12 posts up)

A TIP31C works instead of the MPSA06. The termination of the bifilar coil on the base of the transistor is a 33K resistor.

Power consumption at 20 Volt is less than 20 mA. If the terminating resistor is 10 K, power consumption goes to 100 mA and the lamp becomes very bright.

After shut off, the lamp slowly goes off in about 45 seconds. An Avramenko-Plug (near the tower at the same time) with three LEDs goes off after about 90 seconds.

Experiments with this circuit without a lamp but with a LED-Avramenko plug:

Termination of bifilar coil is 100K, power supply is 20 Volt, no lamp connected, power consumption below my measurement capabilities (below 10 mA)    -->    the Avramenko plug with three LEDs near the tower stays bright to fairly bright for about 120 seconds after disconnection of the power supply (and is completely dark after about 150 seconds)

Termination of bifilar coil is 300K, power supply is 20 Volt, no lamp connected, power consumption below my measurement capabilities (below 10 mA)    -->    the Avramenko plug with three LEDs near the tower is only fairly bright and stays fairly bright for about 180 seconds after disconnection of the power supply (and is completely dark after about 240 seconds). A single red LED Avramenko plug takes about 10 minutes to go completely off, showing that the circuit keeps ringing (on a low level) for a rather long time.

Termination of bifilar coil is 100K, power supply is 10 Volt, no lamp connected, power consumption below my measurement capabilities (way below 10 mA)    -->    the Avramenko plug with three LEDs near the tower is only fairly bright and stays fairly bright for about 60 seconds after disconnection of the power supply (and is completely dark after about 90 seconds)


I have to experiment with the pancake coil on the tower to adjust the circuit better.

May be one can build a small tower coil with the right pancake coil to light LEDs on an Avramenko plug for a long time from caps? The "Voltage step up" of the small tower coil does not have to be high for a few LEDs on an Avramenko plug.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 17, 2011, 08:06:26 PM
Joule Ringer according to xee2

I found a little fly back transformer in a cold cathode lamp driver. With this transformer and a TIP31C transistor I could replicate the circuit from xee2.

Using a bifilar coil instead of the resistor-capacitor combination on the base of the transistor did not improve the circuit.

With the resistor and the capacitor the brightness (and the power consumption) can be adjusted.

With 50 K and 100 nF the consumption is way below 10 mA at 12 Volt, and with 100 K and 200 nF even less (but the lamp is also less bright and stays on for about 180 seconds with the caps).

The original driver needs more than 100 mA at 12 Volt !! I fried the original transistors 2SD1616A, so I moved to a more sturdy TIP31C. Only one collector coil of the little fly back transformer is used.

I will try a Darlington pair soon. Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2011, 05:02:33 AM
@ conradelektro

You might want to try this circuit. I found it works a little bit better.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 18, 2011, 11:02:24 AM
@ conradelektro      You might want to try this circuit. I found it works a little bit better.

@xee2

I could do some power consumption measurements over an 1 Ohm resistor (voltage drop):

The circuit from my last post (with 100K and 200nF) with a CFL needs about 2 mA at 12 Volt. (With my smallest cold cathode lamp it only needs close to 1 mA at 12 Volt.)

With your modification (33K, 10 μF) it needs about 3 mA at 12 Volt and the lamp flickers.


The "stay on time" with a 9400 μF cap agrees with theory:
C = 0.0094 Farat = 9400 μF, 12 Volt, 2 mA
12 V and 0.002A --> 0.024 Watt
0.5 * C * V * V = 0.5 * 0.0094 * 12 * 12 = 0.6768 Joules (Wattseconds) in the caps
0.6768 / 0.024 = 28,2 seconds

In practice the lamp stays on about twice or even tree times as long on the caps because voltage and with that power consumption and brightness decrease as the caps discharge slowly.


The circuit is very sensitive and depends on the lamp, the transistor and the resistor-capacitor combination (with a given transformer and supply Voltage).

Whenever I get the lamp bright (with a certain resistor-capacitor combination) the power consumption goes up to about 20mA or even 200mA, even more depending on the lamp. This also agrees with theory, because my lamps need up to 4 Watt to shine very bright.

Really bad is switching lamps when the power is on, that can fry the transistor.

What I see so far: one can probably bring down the power consumption to may be 0.1 mA by reducing the frequency of the circuit to 50 Hz and adjusting everything very carefully, but then the lamp will be rather dim and prone to flickering. But still, it is a nice way to dimly light a gas discharge lamp with little power. As a novelty item, dimly lit gas discharge lamps look nice and interesting. And it is an interesting and educational experiment. It also teaches you how sensitive the eye is and how difficult it is to judge brightness without a Lumen-meter.

If one wants to light the lamp according to its specified brightness potential, the Watts have to go up to specification. Put the same lamp (unmodified) in a wall socket next to an identical lamp in a Joule Ringer circuit and you will be surprise as to how bright the lamp in the wall socket is (you can't even look at it without hurting your eyes).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on January 18, 2011, 04:33:42 PM
    @ Conrad and All:
      Thanks for keeping us informed of your tests , and letting us know what you've found with these joule ringer circuits. 
    I'm trying to get the Captret- Jt combination working. Although I see that at times for some unknown reason, the led(s) are bright and the (8 too 10 caps) caps are charging slightly. But most of the time the charge is dropping, until the batteries need to be recharged.  If I only use one led, ( and not all leds work the same), the circuit can maintain itself to some degree, but if I add any more leds... there goes the charge. Once the battery charges get to less than about 15 volts, the leds start getting dimmer and dimmer. 
  I have not tried the CFLs as my coil would need to be bigger for that, and I can't find big toroids here, nor am I interested in lighting only CFLs, as I don't like their light.
  Looks to me like the ringer system is very similar the the big Jtc., only using CFLs instead of leds, and a different and bigger coil.
 It does look like the CFL is part of what make this circuit work, as possibly just with using the Leds will not provide for the same ringer effect.
  Has anybody gotten this to work with Leds, without the CFLs?

   My feeling is that using a battery connected to a small solar panel to back up the ringer circuit will make it run for a very, very, long time.
Otherwise it just a set of previously charged caps, discharging for a little while, until there is no more light.  NOT self running...  but, very efficient use of power in any case. 
   I'm still hoping to find the solution to a self runner.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 18, 2011, 05:09:17 PM
Update on the xee2 Joule Ringer --> Darlington Pair, 0.5 mA at 12 Volt

I could bring down the power consumption at 12 Volt to 0.5 mA with a Darlington pair (2 x TIP31C). The blue cold cathode tube stays rather dim with this circuit and stays on about 1 minute with a 4700 μF cap in agreement with conventional theory. I think to see some flickering, so the frequency must be around 20 to 30 Hz.

C = 0.0047 Farat = 4700 μF, 12 Volt, 0.5 mA
12 V at 0.0005A --> 0.006 Watt
0.5 * 0.0047 * 12 * 12 = 0.3384 Joule (Wattseconds) in the cap
0.3384 / 0.006 = 56.4 seconds

@NickZ: For LEDs I would not use a fly back transformer. A hand wound coil looks more promising and a Darlington pair with two C547B transistors. I think about a coil in principle like a fly back transformer, but fewer turns, on a 25 mm plastic tube. The trick is to get the number of turns just right (may be 300 turns for the HV coil, 40 turns for the driver coil on the collector and 10 turns for the trigger coil on the base of the transistor, for 10 LEDs in a row on the HV coil). For LEDs I also would go down to a 1.2 Volt rechargeable AAA battery instead of a 12 Volt battery or power supply. The interesting part is to get the power consumption below 1 mW. I came up with a "night light" which needs about 2 mW for one white LED (you find it in my posts in the Joule Thief thread).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 18, 2011, 10:17:59 PM
Hi Lasersaber and all,
great circuit and replications.

Lasersaber,
what is your starting voltage at the 32.000 uF cap ?

About 20 Volts ?

As with the forumula:
E= 0.5 C V^2

this means about an  energy of just 6.4 Wattsseconds starting at the cap,
so lighting a 1 Watts load should only last about 6.4 seconds
until the cap is empty...
And in the last video it looks like Lasersaber is using much more than a 1 Watt load !

So running it a few minutes is REALLY SOMETHING !

Definately OverUnity !

Now what we have seen so far in all the
replications is, that the power seems to be
extracted in Burst pulses which are fast enough, so that the human eye
thinks it is a contineous light.

Lidmotor did show this very nicely on his scopeshote on youtube in one
of his videos.

Now, what I am really missing are the
most wanted scope shots, to see what is exactly going on
in the cap, if it will be recharged during these burst pulses
or not.

So really a scope shot with 2 traces is needed which will
show the voltage at the capacitor versus the current
out of the cap on a 1 or 10 ohm shunt.

So this would show us, how the capacitor voltage will
drop or rise and how the current is drawn or is recharging
the capacitor.

Maybe somebody please can post such a scopeshot ?

Also single trace scopehots of just the cap voltage
and just the cap current on a shunt would be okay to
see, what is going on.
Please show at least a few cycles on the scope, so one
can see the whole "picture".

Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 18, 2011, 10:41:36 PM
P.S: the question is also,
if the bifilar coil from Lasersaber is somehow inducing current
back into the cap, so replacing it with just a cap and a resistor
as Lidmotor and some others have done it
will not show the same recharging effects of the cap as in
Lasersaber´s videos.

So that is really also why we really need a few good scopeshots of the
supply capacitor voltage and also scopeshots of the
current of this cap at a shunt.

Only this way we will find out, if there is any additional recharge
induction is taking place, that will recharge the cap from
this bifilar coil system.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 09:58:07 AM
@conradelektro
can you please show scopeshots of your input current at a shunt and
also the cap voltage ?

Does the cap voltage rise and fall, or just fall ?

I wonder, why this circuit has such a low input current.

Does the cap get recharged during some burst spikes ?

We really have to know this.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 19, 2011, 02:51:44 PM
Scope shots over 10 Ohm shunt, collector-emitter and lamp of xee2 type circuit.

@ Stefan (hartiberlin) and all interested parties:

The scope shots show a frequency of about 160Hz and very short transistor on times in the order of 5 μsec.

This might explain the low power consumption of about 1 mA and less (the scope and a 10 Ohm shunt show about 1 mA, a good Multimeter and a 1 Ohm shunt show around 0.7 mA).

There are very short spikes in the order of 5 μsec at 160 Hz over the shunt and therefore also on the 4700 μF cap. To expect a real re-charging of the cap by these spikes seems to be a bit bold.

Draw your own conclusions, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 19, 2011, 02:54:06 PM
Scope shots over 10 Ohm shunt, collector-emitter and lamp of xee2 type circuit.

@ Stefan (hartiberlin) and all interested parties:

The circuit and the spots where I connected the scope.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 03:06:25 PM
Many thanks conradelektro  !

But you measured it at the power supply.

I just wanted to see it at the selfrunning state,
where it only runs from the capacitor.

But I already see from these spikes,
that the capacitor gets a recharge from the spikes also.

I will post a modified measurement circuit and please measure it like this.
Many thanks again for your great help.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 03:14:22 PM
Please Conradelektro,
can you please try it this way ?

We also have to see the cap voltage.
Please set the scope to DC inputs and good
amplification to see millivolts changes in the cap voltage when the
spikes occurr.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 19, 2011, 03:15:49 PM
Scope shots over 10 Ohm shunt, collector-emitter and lamp of xee2 type circuit.

@ Stefan (hartiberlin) and all interested parties:

I will do the scope shot with cap only (no power supply). Here a scope shot that shows in more detail the very short transistor on time.

Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 03:31:27 PM
Many thanks Conrad,
now we really need to see the cap voltage in the selfrunning mode.

Many thanks in advance.

Seems this about 160 Hz pulses on the Fl tube
looks like it is always ON, but the human eye does
not see, that is is only very shortly on, so the
cap energy holds very long time...
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 03:48:05 PM
hi Conrad,
do you also get somewhere in your circuit the
scopeshot from Lasersaber in his video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEXCweMxhk

Look at around Minute 6:00 and ongoing.

Is this the voltage at the Basis to emitter of the transistor ?

Or where did he measure this voltage ?

Please let uns know.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 19, 2011, 04:08:49 PM
Scope shots of xee2 type Joule Ringer circuit, the problems.

@ Stefan (hartiberlin) and all interested parties:

The problem with this circuit and scope shots: the circuit is very very very sensitive.

Removing the 4700 μF cap increases the power consumption to about 60 mA.

Introducing a 10 Ohm shunt at the positive side of the 4700 μF cap (as Stefan suggest) also increases the power consumption to about 60 mA. That is the reason why I put the 10 Ohm shunt between the power supply and the circuit. The 4700 μF cap itself determines important parameters of the circuit, like frequency and transistor on time. And if one separates the 4700 μF cap, e.g. with a 10 Ohm shunt, the circuit behaves differently. I can not measure over a 1 Ohm shunt, my scope is not that good.

I can not measure anything else than straight 12 Volt over the 4700 μF cap. That might be a problem of my scope or a lack of skill. Or the 4700 μF cap dampens all spikes.

We have to come up with an "indirect way" to measure input to the the 4700 μF cap. Or we might conclude from the spikes over the 10 Ohm shut between the power supply and the circuit, that the 4700 μF cap "absorbs" the spikes (we see the inverse of these spikes on the shunt). But even if that is the case, the energy in the 5 μsec spikes is very little.

My guess, the short "transistor on time" and the low frequency of this "on time" around 160 Hz is the key to understand the circuit and its low power consumption. Keep in mind, the lamp is rather dim! And when the power consumption goes up to 60 mA (e.g. by removing the 4700 μF cap), the lamp immediately becomes very much brighter (because energy input goes up 60 times).

Greetings, Conrad

Added: I think LaserSaber measured over collector-emitter as I did above.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 04:26:36 PM
Hi Conrad,
just forget the 10 Ohm shunt and just measure alone
the voltage at the cap WITHOUT any power supply connected.

To do this well, just set the scope input channel to AC (not DC)  and then use the
best amplification of your scope channel so you can see also millivolt
changes.
Setting the scope to AC lets you filter out the overlayed 12 Volts DC part,
so you don´t need to offset this voltage and can go
further up into the amplification settings of the scope.

I really need to see the cap voltage alone in the selfrunning mode
with a resolution of around at least 50 MilliVolts/div
and a horizontal deflection setting of around 10 millisec/div and another of 10 usec/div.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 04:31:03 PM
P.S: You need to really show the millivolt changes in the 12 Volts voltage of the 4700 uF cap
when it is not connected to the power supply.

Only this way we can see, if the cap is charging up, when the spikes occurr.

To really see this you HAVE to set your scope input to AC to be able to amplify it enough
and to compensate for the 12 Volts DC it is already getting...
So we really need to see any millivolts spikes there on the 12 Volts cap voltage.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 19, 2011, 05:31:57 PM
Finally, a scope shot over the 4700 μF cap

@ Stefan (hartiberlin) and all interested parties:

Thanks to Stefan's coaching I managed to do a scope shot over the 4700 μF cap with and WITHOUT POWER SUPPLY.

My scope has a high trigger threshold, therefor a bit of the left side of the signal is missing. The pre-trigger does not work in single shot.

I placed a 1 Ohm shunt after the cap as Stefan suggested and the frequency went to about 300 Hz and power consumption to 1.5 mA at 12 Volt. One can not see the 1.5 mV on the scope but the spikes are visible because they are up to 200 mV.

Please let me know what you conclude from this scope shots over the 4700 μF?

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: Let me know what I could do better in order to see more details over the cap.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 19, 2011, 06:07:55 PM
Finally, a scope shot over the 4700 μF cap and no shunt in the circuit

@ Stefan (hartiberlin) and all interested parties:

I also managed to measure over the 4700 μF cap without any shunt in the circuit (so that the original 160 Hz and about 0.7 mA power consumption at 12 Volt are achieved).

The trick is "AC setting" on the scope to overcome the 12 Volt offset. The spikes are very short, therefore the scope only sees them when measuring at shorter time slices. Only at a high magnification (very short time slice) the true form of the pulse can be see.

The high magnification shot over the 4700 μF cap was done WITHOUT POWER SUPPLY, the circuit is running from the cap.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 07:08:32 PM
Many thanks Conrad.

Now we see the real "beef" !

The capacitor is slightly recharged during these spikes when the
voltage spike also goes a bit up.

So there really is a recharge effect during the first interval of the spikes,
but on average the voltage is decreasing, cause the spike voltage area below the
12 Volts line is bigger than the spike area above the 12 Volts line.

So all in all the 12 Volts is decreasing, but very very slowly.

The question is, if the energy drawn in one single spike pulse
and converted to light is higher than the energy drain on the capacitor.

It could be that Lenz law is here violated and that the
induction is putting some voltage back into the capacitor,
so that is really slower discharges than normal.

I really would like to see the same measurements from
Lasersaber, as his latest device seems to put out much
more energy than the other devices presented here from Conrad and
Lidmotor, etc....

If Lasersaber could also show how the cap voltage behaves at his latest
circuit, mabe at his circuit the voltage drop and the voltage rise areas are
almost identical, so that his circuit even needs less current and thus
holds longer the cap charge ?

Now we have to find out, what part of the circuit recharges the cap over the 12 Volts line
in this example and scale this recharge pulse up.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 07:19:42 PM
Hi Conrad and all,
unfortunately you only showed one zoomed cycle of the spike as it already
begun for a few nanoseconds....

Here in this scopeshot I painted the area green, where the voltage of the
cap is rising ( very left side missing due to your triggering issue..)
and the dropping voltage area in red color, where the cap is loosing
its voltage.

So we have to find out, which part of the whole circuit is
responsible for the green part and maximize this.

This is probably a Lenz law problem to feed the counter induction voltage pulse
right back to the cap at the right time and scale.

If the green area will get bigger than the red area, the cap voltage will
rise and we will have a selfrunning system that will last and must be shut down,
otherwise it will runaway and explode...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 19, 2011, 08:38:26 PM
Update, bifilar coil with 4 germanium diodes 1N60, CFL, this time I hope, the right scope shots:

I managed to get the scope shots over the 4700 uF cap a bit better. When I start the single shot measurement several times, eventually the scope triggers a bit earlier and shows the whole pulse. The upper scope shot is with power supply and the lower scope shot is running from the cap after 20 seconds. The pulse deteriorates while the cap slowly discharges.

Notice, the number of 1N60 diodes at the other end of the bifilar coil allows to adjust the power consumption and consequently the brightness of the CFL. With 4 diodes at 1.5 mA at 12 Volt the CFL is rather dim, with 1 diode and 38 mA pretty bright, but still a long way to its full brightness with 200 Volt and 5 Watt.

Frequency went to about 500 Hz with 4 diodes (1.5 mA at 12 Volt).

When I bridge the diodes with two fingers of my hand, the CFL becomes very bright and power consumption shoots up to 200 mA (at 12 Volt).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2011, 09:48:47 PM
Fantastic work being done over here!

Stefan:

I think your idea of the spikes placing a small charge back to the caps is right on the money.  I have seen this a while back with my EB and supercaps charging using nothing but those spikes.  In my opinion, these spikes get "lost" in a battery but the caps store them as usable power.  There may indeed be a way to to maximize this effect and keep the ratio more in our favor.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 11:42:49 PM
Okay Conrad and Bill,
great new scopeshots, now one can really see it all much better.

Now you can see, that the recharge spike, (when the voltage rises over the 12 Volts)
has  almost  exactly the same area as the first spike discharging the cap.
Only the next 3rd smaller discharge spike has to be avoided somehow.

To see it even more better we need to have 2 channel scopeshots.
So simulataneously show the input current waveform (scope channel B)
with the cap voltage ( scope channel A)

Please do it like this and post again the scope shots.

This way we will see, what the input current is doing while
the cap voltage rises or falls.

Then after this we need to find out via other scopeshots at the
transistor(s) and coils, where we can suppress the 3rd spike and
make the recharge spike faster...

You see, we really need the right scopeshots at the right locations to analyze this better
and to exactly produce the right waveforms, which will recharge the cap even better
and to know, from which pulses the cap is recharged the best way.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2011, 11:59:52 PM
Okay,
so here is another analysation from Conrad´s scopeshots,
where the cap voltage over time is shown:

When we open the transistor some current pulse will flow,
so that the cap voltage drops.
This is the red area in the attached scopeshot.

Now we have a recovery phase, where some coil components
fire BackEMF current back to the cap and this will recharge the
cap. This is the green area, where the cap voltage rises again.

Then there will be these blue marked areas, where the cap voltage
is decreasing via these 2 spikes.
These areas could be suppressed via some diodes or simular, so
that in these time intervalls no current will be drawn from the cap.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 12:59:33 AM
As we are looking here at the cap voltage,
we could even switch the cap away from the circuit,
when the positive spike has charged the cap up over the
starting voltage !

This way we could start the next cycle a few milliseconds later
and the cap will charge up and up again and the voltage will rise
on it...

This only needs a sophisticated peak voltage comparator and a fast
on-off switch.

So you see what kind of joy already these waveform show us ,
if you analyse them the correct way !
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2011, 03:02:18 AM
Stefan:

Great idea!  The only thing I can think of that can switch that fast might be a small transistor...say the 2N3904 or something that takes so little to run maybe?  This is getting more and more interesting.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2011, 04:28:38 AM
So you see what kind of joy already these waveform show us ,
if you analyse them the correct way !

I do not think you are interpreting the waveforms correctly. What they are showing is the voltage developed across the internal resistance of the capacitor due to current flow. You can consider this to be a small resistor in series with the capacitor. When current is flowing out of the capacitor the voltage developed across the resistor subtracts from the static voltage of the capacitor. When current is flowing into the capacitor the voltage adds to the static voltage of the capacitor. The area under the curves is the energy leaving the capacitor and the energy returning to the capacitor. The interesting thing that the waveforms show is that the energy going back into the capacitor is almost the same as the energy coming out of the capacitor during each cycle. Thus the net loss of capacitor energy is very small in spite of the currents flowing out of it (since most of the energy is returned).

If you try to put a switch on the capacitor, the voltage will disappear as soon as the switch is opened since there would no longer be any current to generate the voltage.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2011, 04:38:13 AM
Great to see you Xee2, it has been a while.  Surely there is some work around for this as you have described it?  What about a larger farad cap in parallel?  If we got the specs right, could we not take advantage of that where it dumps into the second cap and that keeps the current flowing but then helps recharge the primary cap?

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 12:12:46 PM
I do not think you are interpreting the waveforms correctly. What they are showing is the voltage developed across the internal resistance of the capacitor due to current flow. You can consider this to be a small resistor in series with the capacitor. When current is flowing out of the capacitor the voltage developed across the resistor subtracts from the static voltage of the capacitor. When current is flowing into the capacitor the voltage adds to the static voltage of the capacitor. The area under the curves is the energy leaving the capacitor and the energy returning to the capacitor. The interesting thing that the waveforms show is that the energy going back into the capacitor is almost the same as the energy coming out of the capacitor during each cycle. Thus the net loss of capacitor energy is very small in spite of the currents flowing out of it (since most of the energy is returned).

If you try to put a switch on the capacitor, the voltage will disappear as soon as the switch is opened since there would no longer be any current to generate the voltage.

Hi Xee2,
normally the cap has a resistor parallel to his plates in the compensation circuit diagramm.
What you are referring to would be an additional inductance or okay, an additional series
resistor.
Okay, could be that these spikes show voltagedrops at these internal series resistor or
inductances.

But that is why I asked for the dual channel scope shot of showing also the current
on the shunt.
Only this will tell us, what current is really flowing into or out of the cap and
thus we will know, if the cap gets really recharged in some spikes.

Looking forward to see such scopeshots.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 01:10:57 PM
Here is the internal compensation circuit diagramm
of an electrolytic capacitor:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Electrolytic_capacitor_model.svg

We really need to see the current on the shunt in the circuit to
say more.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 20, 2011, 01:49:31 PM
Two channel scope shots as suggested by Stephan

The attached photos should tell it all (look at the circuit, third picture). I went back to the circuit with the resistor-capacitor combination instead of the bifilar coil and the blue cold cathode lamp. The frequency is about 300 Hz, varying between 280 and 340 Hz. Frequency goes slowly down when the power supply is disconnected and the circuit winds down on the 4700 uF cap.

The scope shot with 2 usec is without power supply, the circuit runs on the 4700 uF cap.

The bifilar coil does not change much, power consumption is slightly higher (2 mA instead of around 1 mA) and the frequency is a bit higher up to 500 Hz.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 04:28:25 PM
Many great thanks Conrad.
Please give me a few minutes to analyse them !
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2011, 05:03:17 PM
@ Conrad

It might be interesting to redo the plot without the tube in order to find out if the circled spike is from the tube turning on and off.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 05:29:41 PM
Hi Conrad,
where did you set the ground line for the shunt voltage ( pink curve ) ?
There where the triangle is at the left side ?

If that is the case we can see, that the input current does not go negative and is always
consuming current from the cap and is not recharging it.

But please let me know, if I am right, that the pink triangle
at the left side shows the ground line (zero inpuut current) for
the pink trace.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 05:41:18 PM
Hi Conrad,
well, did you already invert Channel 2 (voltage at the shunt)  for this scopeshot ?
Cause of the ground problems you have to take the channel 2 shot inverted
and then need to press the invert button for channel 2 to show it the right way,
so that an upgoing curve will show current going from the capacitor into the circuit
and not the other way around.
Surely we then have to know, where the zero line ( groundline) is located on the scope.

Also what comes next is right what Xee2 asked, where exactly does the lamp
turn on and off...?
Can you measusre this with another dual channel scopeshot please ?

Then you can measure with one channel the input current and with the other
the voltage at the bulb for instance and then we can compare the 2 scope shots
and will know, when the bulb turns on and off.

Many thanks.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 20, 2011, 06:04:04 PM
Comparison with and without lamp

The same scope connection points as before.

Ground line is green, each chanel can have its own ground line on the screen (but the two "grounds" are of course identical).

No invert on my cheap USB scope, I copied the "panel" with all setting possibilities into the picture.

I can not measure HV coil and anything else in the circuit together because the GND of both channels is identical and when I connect the HV coil to GND the circuit stops. So, I can only measure the HV side alone with my 1:100 probe.

Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
@ Conrad

My guess as to what is happening for first spike. I do not even have a guess as to what the second spike is.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 07:06:43 PM
Sorry Conrad, I was wrong.
The channel 2 must not be inverted.

As it is shown it is okay.
Thanks for showing the groundline.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 07:19:43 PM
@xee2
yes, what the second spike is is mysterious.
For better efficiency this should be suppressed.

Conrad, can you do please again a 1 channel scopeshot
with a deflection of 2 or 5 usec
just showing the voltage at the tube ?

Then we can compare this to the input current / cap voltage shot
and can say more about the timings.

Many thanks.

Regards, STefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 20, 2011, 07:20:43 PM
Reason for the second trigger (bump) is may be the 100 nF (or 200 nF) and 500 K combination on the base of the transistor.


When I change the capacitor from 200 nF to 100 nF the form of the scope shots changes.

The capacitor is absolutely necessary, without capacitor (only 500 K) the circuit stops. This capacitor-resistor combination (or a bifilar coil terminated with 1N60 diodes) is the whole point of the Joule Ringer. Otherwise we go back to an ordinary Joule Thief.

Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 07:27:08 PM
Hi Conrad, yes, this second spike could depend
on the ringing of the basis coil with the 200nf/100nF cap.

Do you have a pulse generator ?

Then one could just see with a pulse generator instead
of the 200nF/500KOhm parts to pulse an about 1 usec pulse
to the basis of the darlington and see, how the cap voltage behaves...


It seems that short current spikes do not discharge the electrolytic
cap so much...
Maybe the cap wants to keep its voltage level and somehow recharges
itsself from the environment or something simular.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 07:36:46 PM
It would be really interesting to see what happens,
if the transistor is just pulsed with a pulsegenerator that
has 2 Mikroseconds Ontime and 3 milliseconds  Offtime.

This will be a frequency of around 333 Hz with extremly short ontime only..

How fast will the cap discharge then ?
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 07:48:22 PM
Also it really all depends on how long your cables are
and how good all is soldered or only
connected via croco cables as this video from
TinselKoala shows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWDfrzBIxoQ

So build up this circuit with the shortest wires you can have.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 20, 2011, 07:54:27 PM
Scope shot over the lamp.

Sorry, no pulse or function generator in my house.

Let's just think for a while, and may be others replicate this circuit to see for themselves what can be done. Any odd fly back transformer will do, many transistors work (e.g. MPSA06, TIP31C).

Triggering the base with a "capacitor-resistor combination" or a "bifilar coil terminated with 1N60 diodes or a resistor" causes a low oscillation rate (which is good), short transistor on time (which is good), but also some complexities and instabilities.

Ladies and gentlemen, it is your turn now to show a real experiment and good mesurements.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2011, 08:15:31 PM
@ Conrad

I do not want to interfere with what you and Stefan are doing. But measuring the voltage across a 1 ohm resistor between pin 2 and the timing capacitor would show how the current is flowing between the timing capacitor and the base coil. It should flow into the base coil to turn on the transistor and then gradually decrease until the transistor turns off and then (I think) have a reverse surge when the magnetic field collapses. Maybe the surge is forward instead of reversed. In that case the transistor would tun back on. I have never been able to investigate this myself. Or perhaps it would be better to put the resistor between the base coil and the base of the transistor. That would show what is actually going into the transistor base.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 20, 2011, 09:23:31 PM
@ xee2, as requested

Case 1:  1 Ohm shunt between point 2 of trigger coil and 200pF-500K combination.

Case 2: 1 Ohm shunt between point 1 of trigger coil and base of resistor


I managed to bring the lamp into play, by connecting probe A to the lamp, but without using the ground of probe A. The Voltage on the lamp is high enough to cause a week signal never the less.

So, one sees, the lamp gets a pulse when the transistor opens. It does not matter much for the lamp (or the transformer) that the transistor opens up two times. But it seems that the pulse over the lamp is a bit widened at the right side because of this.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2011, 09:51:43 PM
@ Conrad

It looks to me like the transistor is being turned on twice. Does it loo that way to you? I do not recall every seeing that in a Joule thief before. But, that may be because no one has ever made such good measurements. If you are not yet tired of taking measurements, this could be confirmed by putting the 1 ohm resistor between the collector and the collector coil. I think it would be better to measure with the probe at one end of resistor and the ground for the probe at the other end of the resistor. That way you know that other currents floating on the negative terminal of the battery are not getting mixed into the measurement. If this does not show the transistor turning on twice, then you were getting current coupled in through the ground on your measurements.

CAUTION - this may be a bad idea. The collector get large voltage spikes and they may be too high for your scope.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 20, 2011, 10:30:42 PM
@ xee2, 1 Ohm shunt between collector coil and collector of transistor:


Good idea xee2, that confirms that the transistor opens two times in a row (within about 2 μsec).

I guess it is the 200pF capacitor over the 500K resistor.

Green is ground line. Cyan is the measurment over the 1 Ohm shunt. Probe B is at coil, ground of probe B is a collector of transistor.

Again the white line is the lamp (without connecting to scope ground, kind of floating).

I will make the same kind of measurements at my next circuit.

A nice fact: using a 100pF - 80K combination in this circuit makes a 15 Watt spiral CFL shine a pleasant yellow light with about 15 mA at 12 Volt. (The measurements were done with 200pF-500K and a 120 mm long blue cold cathode tube.)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 20, 2011, 11:00:23 PM
Many thanks Conrad for all your help.
Yes, as Xee2 says, the transistor seems to switch on 2 times
in this interval.
Now it would be interesting to see, if one could
find out a circuit variation, that makes it only switch on 1 time
in this interval as this will consume less current from the cap
and see, what this will get us for the light output.

P.S: Are you saying you get a 15 Watt light bulbs fully lit up
with just 12 Volts and 15 mA which is just about 0.18 Watts ?

How bright is it ?
What is then the frequency of these burst pulses ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2011, 11:13:14 PM
@ Conrad

Well, I think that is pretty clear that the transistor is turning on twice. Interesting results. Thank you for posting all of these great measurements.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2011, 11:32:26 PM
I guess it is the 200pF capacitor over the 500K resistor.

I think it is probably the current induced in the base coil by the collapsing magnetic field. The time delay is most likely the turn on time of the transistor (even longer for a darlington). But, why does it not happen again when the transistor turns off the second time? Still not fully clear, but great progress. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 20, 2011, 11:36:56 PM
15 Watt spiral CFL, 100K-100pF, about 2200 Hz, 12 Volt about 12 mA

The 15 Watt CFL is not very bright, I call it a "pleasant yellow". To read a book, the lamp has to be at 200 mm from the book. So, it is not even a decent reading lamp. I like to see it as an "atmosphere" lamp to chill out.

It looks like that:

The circuit is very sensitive to the capacitor-resistor combination between trigger coil and +12V.

It is mostly the frequency that gets changed. Higher resistor ---> lower frequency.

Varying the capacitor is more tricky and there the double triggering comes in. Higher capacitor ---> double triggering but also lower frequency.

One has to analyse this capacitor-resistor pair in order to get more insight and to avoid the double triggering.

The capacitor is necessary, without capacitor there is no oscillation. May be there could be oscillation without capacitor if one biases the transistor.

Also the 4700 uF cap plays a role. The circuit behaves completely different if one disconnects the 4700 uF cap, the power consumption shoots up, also the brightness of the lamp.

The really low power consumption around 1 mA at 12V (and a rather dim lamp) starts with 500K or 1M and 200 pF at about 200Hz to 300Hz. There is also erratic flickering at this low power.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2011, 11:59:19 PM
Conrad:

Nice work man.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 21, 2011, 12:38:06 AM
Hi Conrad,
nice work.

You could try to put a diode (like 1N4148 or a 1 N4007 or something simular)
parallel to the 500 KOhm resistor
and see, what polarity of the diode will work best.
Maybe this way, only one triggering of the Darlington will happen  ?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: ltseung888 on January 21, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Does any one here thought of the two oscilloscope experiment to determine whether COP can be greater than 1?

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=538.msg9575#msg9575
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 21, 2011, 11:32:17 AM
Remarks on the circuit we discussed in the many posts with the scope shots:

Power consumption and frequency depend on R1, C1 and C2 (see circuit in the picture below).

The values R1=200K, C1=110pF and C2=1000μF lead to about 1KHz oscillation, still double triggering of transistor within about 6μs and a power consumption of about 7 mA at 12V. The 15 Watt spiral CFL has a nice yellow hue, not very bright. It also works with smaller CFLs (8 Watt or 5 Watt) and power consumption goes down to around 5 mA with smaller spiral CFLs.

A diode instead of R1 or in parallel of R1 acts as a resistor (be careful to have the cathode at +12V or the transistor is gone) and does not prohibit double triggering.

Very interesting is the influence of the electrolytic capacitor C2 (R1 and C1 left at 200K and 110pF):
removal or less than about 10μF --> power consumption goes up to 120 mA
10μF to 100μF --> power consumption goes down to about 20 mA - 30mA
1000μF and up --> power consumption varies according to make of cap around 7mA to 10mA

With all the settings of R1, C1 and C2 tested, double triggering was still there. Be aware that also the type of the transistor has a huge influence and whether you use a Darlington pair or not. With the TIP31C a Darlington pair keeps the power consumption down, because R1 can be higher than with only one transistor. R1 keeps the frequency down, high R1 --> low frequency.

C1 must be there, lowers the frequency, but can only be changed in a narrow range with a given R1, with R1=200K from 10nF to 300nF:
 10nF  and 200K --> 100 mA (lamp brighter, but not spectacular)
110nF and 200K  --> 7 mA (lamp has a nice yellow hue)
210nF and 200K -->  3 mA (lamp dim)
300nF and 200K --> 1 mA (lamp almost out)

My plans to proceed:
I got tired of the circuit as it is, because it needs 12 Volt. I wait for the fly back transformers (from PC monitors), because I want this circuit with a 1 Volt power supply (AA rechargeable battery at 1 to 1.2 Volt).  You will hear the results, but it will take a while.

Bifilar coil instead of R1-C1:
I did not see any benefit in the bifilar coil. One can also adjust the frequency and the power consumption with the resistor that terminates the coil (can be 1N60 diodes). The bifilar coils seems to play the role of C1, but is more difficult to adjust (because the number of turns has to be changed).

Over unity: well, I never saw any OU in a Joule Thief and also not in this circuit. Nevertheless, it is nice to (dimly) light CFLs or LEDs with little power. For me the practical use is as a novelty item. Specially a Slayer Exciter with a big tower coil and its ghostly lighting of FLs and CFLs when brought near the tower always impresses people. It is a modern Tesla coil and allows similar experiments. Also the AV-plugs with one LED or many LEDs are catching. So, there is entertainment value in the Joule Thief type circuits. To get OU, keep trying!

Greetings, Conrad

My last post (scroll up) shows a photo of the circuit with R1=100K, C1=100nF, C2=4700uF at about 2KHz ,with a power consumption of about 12 mA at 12 Volt.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 21, 2011, 05:18:03 PM
Hi Conrad,
at what frequency and what input current does the CFL bulb shine bright,
so that it illumintes a bit a dark room and that you could read  a book about 1 Meter away from it ?

Maybe this could be powered by a series stack of aluminium air battery cells
run with K2CO3 and water as the electrolyte, as one cell is then giving out about 1.3 Volts,
so you would need about 9 to 10 cells in series for this.

P.S: Look at the latest Videos here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITzAZFYFo_0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8Z_LoWoLY

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 21, 2011, 06:06:39 PM
@Stefan, bright CFL needs Watts, circuit does not like Watts

Even at 1 or 2 Watt (100mA to 200mA) the CFL is not really bright enough to count for a decent lamp. But already at 1 to 2 Watt the TIP31C transistors in the Joule Ringer circuit (or any Joule Thief circuit) overheat slowly (would need some decent cooling).

The only way I found to light CFLs according to their specified Wattage and brightness is the classical two transistor fly back circuit as shown below. You also find a similar thing inside the CFL lamps when you take them apart.

All Joule Thief type circuits are very hard on the transistor when the energy throughput goes up. There is no good way to adjust frequency, base-emitter current and transistor on time at the same time.

I found that Joule Thief type circuits are fun for low power and low voltage.

One has to be careful that base voltage does not go below ground and above collector voltage (which is easily induced by the trigger coil), both situations are bad for the transistor and damage it easily (especially when running from 12 Volt or higher). Also voltage spikes from the collector coil can cause very high voltages on the collector beyond 100 Volt easily (again when using higher supply voltages above 12 Volt).

Look at this page http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Flyback#High_Power_Drivers , it says it all very clearly (scroll up to read about the "Simple Circuits", which are the Joule Thieves).

I am very much a fan of Joule Thieves, but one has to use common sense when playing with them. There are no miracles and there are better circuits in case one needs useful Wattage.

I like the Slayer Exciter very much, because it is a safe way to build a Tesla Coil like thing. But its usefulness beyond a novelty item is doubtful.

The self made batteries are also very nice. May be not really useful, but educational. Some people said to me when I showed them some battery experiments: "Incredible, there is electricity everywhere once two metals are available". And this is the educational value.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on January 21, 2011, 07:22:50 PM
@conrad

Great post!

Although i do hope for more from exciters/joule thieves/flyback oscillators, i have to admit that what ive seen so far is exactly as you explain.  Thanks for all your circuits and diagrams - they have helped me immensely in understanding better and better these kind of oscillators.

@all

I can get the same ringing effect with a small xenon flash salvaged from a disposable camera.  It will continue for longer than 5 mins if left undisturbed, but the flash through the xenon gets weaker and less frequent as time goes by - the energy of the cap just seems to slosh back and forth, but each time becoming weaker and weaker (like a pendulum left undisturbed).  The xenon is smaller than 3cm end to end, and the starting pulse can be from a 12V, or 9V, or 1AA emergency charger combo.....though obviously the 12V is much more impressive!  Im using the tip31C darligton pair on a flyback circuit that conrad posted, except im using a neon in place of the high value resistor - i dont have any resistors in the megaohm range, and a 1 microfarad cap, as well as a 10000 microfarad cap to power it.   

Heres a poor quality vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jBqg63sYKY

@stephan
sorry - no idea about voltages as all multimetres are broken.  Also i dont know what kind of voltage is necessary to light a xenon.  But im sure there are some clever lads here who do.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 21, 2011, 07:47:11 PM
@flathunter

Since I plan to go into fly back transformers (from PC monitors, the ones with the suction cap on the HV output) I am very interested in the fly back transformer you used in your xenon-flash-video:

- The fly back transformer should have two drive coils, or is that not so?

- Do you have the data sheet of your fly back transformer? If yes, I would like to know how they label the pins (names or letter codes), and which pins you used in the Joule Ringer circuit? May be you can give a link to the data sheet on the internet?

- Is the trigger coil (the one you put on the base of the transistor) completely independent of the drive coil (the one that goes to the collector of the transistor) or are they internally connected (like having a common ground)?

- Does it have an internal HV-diode?

- Would it be possible to remove the core of your fly back transformer? Or would one damage it completely when trying to do that?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on January 21, 2011, 08:03:28 PM
@Conrad
Im glad you're interested, but unfortunately im afraid ill be very little help.  I have no datasheet on the flyback - there is a sticker on it with the word SAMPO and some numbers - will they give us a clue?  Ill write them out if so.

Im using pins 1 and 2 (2 goes to collector)

5 and 9 (9 goes to base) (7 is also part of this coil....my multimetre would make the sound that means same coil.  And it'll work with 7, though not so well - perhaps a tap lead)

8 and rubber sucker as HV output

As for internal diodes - havent the foggiest.  Kooler told me that there may be internal caps when i first built a simple flyback/tranny circuit to drive a small jacobs ladder.  This was because i kept getting really jolting shocks - not just like your average HV tickle, but more like a cap discharge.

Internal connections between coils - sorry, no idea without datasheet.

My ability to take it apart it surely lacking - Im certain i would wreck it!  But people who know flybacks better than me could maybe do it.

Ive got another flyback of a much more ''old school'' variety which im gonna try very very soon.

Thanks again for the darlington pair idea - nothing would work till i tried it  ;)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 21, 2011, 08:25:52 PM
@flathunter

Please let us have the exact numbers, letters and symbols on the transformer. Is it too much to ask for a photo? I am pretty sure something can be found in the Weird Wide Wonderful net.

I am so (inexcusably) insistent because you got your fly back transformer to work in a Joule Ringer and very much can be learned from that about the connections.

The Darlington arrangement makes the base of the pair much more sensitive to the trigger coil pulses than a single TIP31C. That makes it easier to make the circuit oscillate. It was Bedini who proposed that in a post far up in this thread (or was it in energetic forum?).

I suck in all the ideas I see in the Joule Thief related threads and try to build something nice. Had great fun so far. I am not an electronic engineer, but I learned a lot since I started this hobby a year ago. Using the scope was a big hurdle and luckily it survived my learning curve. Now I want a better scope. May be I find an older second hand monster scope with two hundred buttons. My USB scope is nice, but very limited. Many transistors went to the trash pin, I could even burn capacitors and resistors.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2011, 09:53:09 PM
@ Conrad

These are the pins I use on the $4 Electronic Goldmine flyback transformer. There are no standard pin assignments for flybacks, they all seem to be different.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: shylo on January 21, 2011, 10:17:10 PM
Hi all ,I was just asking this in another thread,Xees your diagram only shows 5 pins in use what are the other ones for?? I have very little knowledge about these just that they ethier step up or step down,either voltage or current but, not both.....thanx     ..shylo
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on January 21, 2011, 10:36:02 PM
Sorry but photo just wont work with my terrible camera - ive been trying to take one but just cant get the letters in focus.  Heres whats printed on it

''159S-06-33AS
  0607.  F    C''

on a different side in big letters:

''1059  S''

and

''SAMPO''


and FOCUS next to a screw, and SCREEN


Its working very nicely now with a long and thin 14W cylinder CFL.  But im sure theres plenty of room for improvement  ;)

Good luck!

PS  Ill measure ohmic resistances on my coils after Monday when ill get a chance to visit the radio market and buy a new multimetre.......and some new caps i think too
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2011, 11:23:38 PM
Hi all ,I was just asking this in another thread,Xees your diagram only shows 5 pins in use what are the other ones for?? I have very little knowledge about these just that they ethier step up or step down,either voltage or current but, not both.....thanx     ..shylo

I have no idea what the pins are for. There is no data sheet. This is how I have been using it.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 22, 2011, 02:37:31 PM
@ shylo, flathunter and xee2:   concerning fly-back transformers

There is some information on the pins of a fly back transformer:
http://www.electronicrepairguide.com/flyback-transformer-pinout.html

Flathunter's flyback seems to have the part number SAMPO 159S-06-33AS,
shylo's flyback seems to have the part number SAMPO FE1B4OAT
(but that did not help to find anything).

http://www.sampo.com.tw/  -- Is there a reader of these posts who can read Chinese, one should be able to get some info from SAMPO?

Here at least some diagrams of Sampo fly-backs:
http://www.donberg.ie/descript/h/hr_7692.htm (click on the GIF-image, only negative pulse on pin 4)
http://www.donberg.ie/descript/h/hr_46088.htm (click on the GIF-image, three nice pulses on pins 6,8,9)
http://www.donberg.ie/search?query=SAMPO&wordflag=and&maxlines=100&group=00 (gives many SAMPO fly back diagrams, one can search for other manufacturers too)
They are probably completely different to shylo's and flathunter's SAMPO-flyback, but may be they use similar pin-outs on many products (like a habit within a manufacturer). One sees that not all 10 pins are used. The HV side looks interesting, diodes, capacitor, even resistors.

It is probably a good idea to buy the $4 fly-back from Goldmine in order to know what one is dealing with.

xee2 could you please post the names of the pins, as they are called in the specs or datasheet of the your $4 Goldmine fly-back (to compare the pins with the description at http://www.electronicrepairguide.com/flyback-transformer-pinout.html or http://www.donberg.ie/descript/h/hr_7692.htm). Sorry, I see that Goldmine does not provide any info (what a bummer).

Kooler in the thread "GBluer(Slayer) Exiter" describes a Slayer Exciter with a fly-back that runs on 1 Volt (he removed the core). This 1 Volt operation of a fly-back to drive a CFL interests me very much and is the reason why I ordered ten fly-backs and why I nag people about their fly-backs.

I appreciate all information (specially about the right pins to use) from experimenters who successfully used a fly-back transformer in a Joule Thief type circuit. My guess:
AFC pin (Automatic Frequency Control) and GND pin --> trigger coil on the base of the transistor. May be "horizontal collector pin" could be use instead of AFC pin?
B+ pin and VCC pin --> collector coil.

I should get 10 surplus fly back transformers for PC-monitors (CRT) any day now. Then I will try really hard to get some data about them.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on January 23, 2011, 05:02:50 PM
Hi guys,

I had some good results today with my exciter on 1 AA in an emergency charger. I hooked my 10 000 microfarad cap which powers my flyback ringer to an av plug which i joined to a large aluminium toroid suspended above (but not connected to) the secondary of my exciter. When i turned the exciter on, the cap quickly charged and within 10 seconds a 14W CFL or 6 W xenon connected to the output of my ringer would be fully lit - I was very excited by this as usually i cant get the 6W xenon beaker to light with just 1AA in a charger (not with an exciter, or flyback oscillator). But what made me even happier was that i could light two other CFLs at the same time that stood by my exciter. So i had the xenon and 2CFLs fully lit with one tiny battery. On disconnecting the battery the 2CFLs would naturally extinguish, but the xenon continued ringing for the usual extra few minutes.

Lovely! Give it a go lads - hook your caps up to an av plug and connect it to a large metal plate/sphere/toroid hung above your exciter. Your caps will charge fast!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH_cyX6pSt8
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 23, 2011, 05:38:09 PM
Well done Flathunter,
maybe you can draw up a schematic diagramm of how you connected it all ?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: kooler on January 24, 2011, 07:09:34 AM
well guys
i have tried a 2000 turn bifilar coil and a 1150 turn with no luck..
those were from my sweet builds..
so i went to my 700 turn.. no luck
400 turn.. just made it today.. no luck.. 30 awg
200 turn 30 awg ..nada
550 turn 22 awg.. big  0 ..
50 turn 26 awg.. nope
best yet is a 1 min run then it blinks for ever..
with just a resistor and cap across.. get the very same results..
the same shit we have been doing for way over 3 years now..
i am tired of over volting the small transistors.. and smoking them..
and then frying the transformers.. they arc bad at 10-12 volts..
this project was a total waste for me..
60 dollars in magnet wire .. and the cost camera's..
i never could get the long run time as lasersaber did..
if you use the fuji camera transformer from a aaa battery camera then it will take 15 volts..


robbie
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on January 24, 2011, 01:09:31 PM
@kooler

"if you use the fuji camera transformer from a aaa battery camera then it will take 15 volts"

I was never able to get much of an effect out of any other transformer other than the Fuji AA.  I have tried fly back coils, HV transformers, other camera transformers and every thing else you can imagine.  With the Fuji AA I was able to run the Joule Ringer from 1V to well over 100V input with no problems.  No my latest work has been in winding my own large E core transformer from scratch.  It's huge, took forever to wind and was worth every once of effort.  If anybody thought my last Joule Ringer videos were cool just wait until see the next update.


@Everybody

Thanks for sharing all your hard work on this.  I enjoyed all you videos and scope shots.

I have an idea for testing the efficiency of the Joule Ringer that should work pretty well.  On my latest unit I can drive it really hard!  It's transformer is really loud and screams and buzzes like it's the end of the world.  I actually find being able to hear this high pitched buzz great for testing.  It's so helpful to be able to hear the frequency loud and clear.  I had this unit driving a large load and pulling a lot of current off the batteries!  When i got it tuned correctly in this configuration I was able to to disconnect the batteries and let the circuit ring.  When tuned correctly It would run along at the same frequency for much longer then I would have expected.  Then after a little while you could hear the frequency change and drop all of a sudden and the lights would dim a little as it dropped out of this optimum range it had been running in.  This made me wonder if we could calculate the efficiency by just comparing it's current draw at a certain frequency while on battery versus it's run time at that same frequency with the same load while disconnected from the batteries.  If my load is half an amp at 30 volts while on batteries and I disconnect the batteries and it keeps ringing that load for any length of time on my 9000uF Cap then I should be able to come up with an approximant efficiency.  I know that technically the frequency will be dropping slowly during that given time but that is something we can easily account for.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 24, 2011, 01:29:27 PM
I studied some more the basics of capacitors and what we probably have here with the
Joule Ringer is, that the short discharge pulses are just recharged by dielectric absorption:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption

Dielectric absorption is the name given to the effect by which a capacitor that has been charged for a long time discharges only incompletely when briefly discharged. Although an ideal capacitor would remain at zero volts after being discharged, real capacitors will develop a small voltage, a phenomenon that is also called soakage or battery action. For some dielectrics, such as many polymer films, the resulting voltage may be less than 1-2% of the original voltage, but it can be as much as 15 - 25% for electrolytic capacitors or supercapacitors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_capacitor#Dielectric_absorption_.28soakage.29

Some types of dielectrics, when they have been holding a voltage for a long time, maintain a "memory" of that voltage: after they have been quickly fully discharged and left without an applied voltage, a voltage will gradually be established which is some fraction of the original voltage. For some dielectrics 10% or more of the original voltage may reappear. This phenomenon of unwanted charge storage is called dielectric absorption or soakage, and it effectively creates a hysteresis or memory effect in capacitors.

The percentage of the original voltage restored depends upon the dielectric and is a non-linear function of original voltage.[2]

In many applications of capacitors dielectric absorption is not a problem but in some applications, such as long-time-constant integrators, sample-and-hold circuits, switched-capacitor analog-to-digital converters, and very low-distortion filters, it is important that the capacitor does not recover a residual charge after full discharge, and capacitors with low absorption are specified[3]. For safety, high-voltage capacitors are often stored with their terminals short circuited.

Some dielectrics have very low dielectric absorption, e.g., polystyrene, polypropylene, NPO ceramic, and Teflon. Others, in particular those used in electrolytic and supercapacitors, tend to have high absorption.


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondensator_%28Elektrotechnik%29#Temperaturabh.C3.A4ngigkeit

Kondensatortyp                                                     Dielektrische Absorption
Kunststoff-Folienkondensatoren, Polyesterdielektrikum    0,2 bis 0,25 %
Kunststoff-Folienkondensatoren, Polypropylendielektrikum    0,01 bis 0,05 %
Keramikkondensatoren, X7R                                            0,6 bis 1 %
Keramikkondensatoren, Z5U                                            2,0 bis 2,5 %
Aluminium-Elektrolytkondensatoren                                    etwa 10 bis 15 %


So alufoil electrolyte caps can have an automatic  recharge rate of 15 % due to
dielectric absorption !

So it really depends also on what kind of electrolyte capacitor you are using for the Joule Ringer circuit.

It must be a cap that has a high dielectric absorption !
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: shylo on January 24, 2011, 02:44:16 PM
Hi Stefan, Yes I see this with the caps I'm using as well ,it's too bad we can't increase this recharge effect,or can we? Is there any way to use larger caps to help in the recharge of a bank of smaller caps???.........thanx for any ideas.........shylo
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: ltseung888 on January 24, 2011, 08:17:50 PM
Dear All,

I have done a rough Area comparison with the Output Power Curve and the Input Power Curve with the FLEET Prototype A.  The screen shots were done by PhysicsProf on Jan 22, 2011.  It is obvious that the COP is greater than 1.  Please see reply 350 on that thread and the following link:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=538.msg9822;topicseen#msg9822

I am sure that the Joule Ringer undergoing the similar two oscilloscope test will also show that the true COP > 1.

Great Work and God bless you all.

Lawrence
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2011, 10:21:30 PM
@itseung888

Ok now it seems you managed to get others to see the potential of the Joule thief

Good work ! But now we need to address the real issue here .

You showed poor judgment in changing the name of the JT to your fleet shit , this doesn't give you the right to steel work from others and get the credit for it .

I personally think you did a good job , because no one would have done what you have done , lets clarify that you did not invent the fleet because it was already there and called the Joule thief , thousands of people put there efforts together for a common goal , and that goal was no to provide you with retirement money , we are in this mess because of people taking advantage of others , prove to use you are not one of those , stop calling the JT something else then a JOULE THIEF .

I must say i feel cheated by the fact that you try to steel the JT from the people that  conceived it , i personally put 2 years of my time in this project , and that was a gift to the world not to you , you are part of the world and deserve access to it but not to take it as your own , you may think you did great by proving what most of us know , the only problem in doing that is that you removed our anonymity , now we will be a target , more work for everyone fighting all the trolls , our relative peace in conducting our experiment may be a thing of the past .

Now you know why others did not pursue the cop verification , but since you are simple man you did not catch that , i tried to tell you !

All and all , thank for helping the JT cause . 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 24, 2011, 10:31:54 PM
The circuit became a little bit better, still double triggering of transistor!

Sorry, nothing spectacular, but I could make the circuit with the little fly back transformer and the 15 Watt CFL at 12V a bit better.

It needed a 1nF capacitor parallel to a diode in between the trigger coil and the base of the transistor to give more light for the same power supplied.

At 0.6 Watt the CFL starts to be a useful lamp, may be as a reading lamp. At 0.15 Watt it is just nice to look at (nice yellow hue).

There still is a problem: the pulse from the trigger coil does not cleanly switch the transistor, a double triggering occurs.

The scope shots on the left are done between GND and the base of the transistor, and the scope shots at the right over a 1 Ohm shunt in between the drive coil and the collector of the transistor. One sees that the transistor does not switch cleanly. The diode and even better a 1nF cap parallel to the diode (in between trigger coil and base) does shape the trigger pulse better, but still not good enough. The diode is important to avoid a high negative voltage on the base (base below emitter is very bad for the transistor).

It looks like the current from the trigger coil brakes down a little bit when the transistor starts to open, hence not a clean switching. I think one needs a more powerful trigger coil (more windings) to overcome that. Which is difficult to set right in a salvaged fly back transformer.

Be aware that the circuit is very sensitive. It is optimized for a 12 Volt battery, any other Voltage would need readjustment of R1 and C1 and higher Voltages pose a real problem, because the transformer is not built for that, it will shorten. Lower voltages (below 7 Volt) do not ignite the CFL because the step up rate of the transformer is too little.

I understand why LaserSaber built his own transformer. This is the only way to control all parameters of this circuit and to move forward.

I hope that others will try the diode and parallel cap in between the trigger coil and the base of the transistor and report their findings. Once I get more fly back transformers, I will try with them.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 25, 2011, 12:23:05 AM
@Lawrence

Please post this topic in the Joule Thief board.
Who did these measurements and are these from a multiplying scope,
so power is calculated on the fly ?

@conrad´,
well done.
Maybe you can still add one or two 1N4148 diodes in series with its cathode from the basis
of your darlington transitor to the ground, so the anode will be at the ground.
This shunts away all the negative spikes at the basis and might help to
make the current pulse better inside the darlington.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: poynt99 on January 25, 2011, 02:15:34 AM
@itseung888

Ok now it seems you managed to get others to see the potential of the Joule thief

Good work ! But now we need to address the real issue here .

You showed poor judgment in changing the name of the JT to your fleet shit , this doesn't give you the right to steel work from others and get the credit for it .

I personally think you did a good job , because no one would have done what you have done , lets clarify that you did not invent the fleet because it was already there and called the Joule thief , thousands of people put there efforts together for a common goal , and that goal was no to provide you with retirement money , we are in this mess because of people taking advantage of others , prove to use you are not one of those , stop calling the JT something else then a JOULE THIEF .

I must say i feel cheated by the fact that you try to steel the JT from the people that  conceived it , i personally put 2 years of my time in this project , and that was a gift to the world not to you , you are part of the world and deserve access to it but not to take it as your own , you may think you did great by proving what most of us know , the only problem in doing that is that you removed our anonymity , now we will be a target , more work for everyone fighting all the trolls , our relative peace in conducting our experiment may be a thing of the past .

Now you know why others did not pursue the cop verification , but since you are simple man you did not catch that , i tried to tell you !

All and all , thank for helping the JT cause .

With all due respect Mk1, there is nothing new, novel, or unique about LT's (or whomever) version of the JT. The same goes for the JT itself. The blocking oscillator (BO) was "invented" before you were probably even born, so reality is that no one of recent times has any claim to the concept actually. Sure, there have been 100's of variations (LT's) and improvements over the years, but fundamentally the circuit is the same.

You spent two years tweaking, learning, and improving on the basic JT and that's great. No one is ever going to be able to take that away from you. However, how can anyone lay claim to what is and always has been fundamentally a BO, designed many many years ago?

What precisely did Lawrence 'steal'? The addition of a secondary? That's actually quite basic for all that know transformer theory. The truth is, the device could be made more efficient without that secondary, and the output taken from the 'primary'. One only need dig into some modern buck/boost converter designs in order to learn about the best circuit configurations.

ION has been designing and working with BO circuits for about 50 years, and he has indicated that LT's design exhibits an efficiency of only about 75% or so, maximum. There are more advanced techniques (and better components) which were developed over the last 10 to 20 years that can allow for efficiencies as high as 95%.

.99
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2011, 02:31:17 AM
With all due respect Mk1, there is nothing new, novel, or unique about LT's (or whomever) version of the JT. The same goes for the JT itself. The blocking oscillator (BO) was "invented" before you were probably even born, so reality is that no one of recent times has any claim to the concept actually. Sure, there have been 100's of variations (LT's) and improvements over the years, but fundamentally the circuit is the same.

You spent two years tweaking, learning, and improving on the basic JT and that's great. No one is ever going to be able to take that away from you. However, how can anyone lay claim to what is and always has been fundamentally a BO, designed many many years ago?

What precisely did Lawrence 'steal'? The addition of a secondary? That's actually quite basic for all that know transformer theory. The truth is, the device could be made more efficient without that secondary, and the output taken from the 'primary'. One only need dig into some modern buck/boost converter designs in order to learn about the best circuit configurations.

ION has been designing and working with BO circuits for about 50 years, and he has indicated that LT's design exhibits an efficiency of only about 75% or so, maximum. There are more advanced techniques (and better components) which were developed over the last 10 to 20 years that can allow for efficiencies as high as 95%.

.99

Sorry , but you are exactly what i was talking about ...

Yes i did not invent it nor did you or Lawrence . My point is a spent many hours helping people and teaching them , many things . First even if really basic the addition of a secondary was never done on a JT circuit until i showed and promoted it , go read the tread yes the long one , then be judge ...  i spent my time so everyone would benefit , but no one in particular not even me.

But this tread is not related to lawrence in anyway except that he posted here .

So i will refrain form making anymore comment  , until a proper tread is created ,  since this tread is on the JR form LaserSaber.

It will not be allowed to go out of hand .
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on January 25, 2011, 12:57:04 PM
Lucky me!

I found a 58000 microfarad cap at the radio market - it'll keep my xenon running for 10 mins with no battery (of course, not full brightness for ten mins). The flyback is very noisy when it hits resonance - like lasersaber, i find the pitch and tempo of the ringing in the flyback EXTREMELY useful for getting resonance. I use a radio on the floor and an AV plug to check if it has reached that point. When im charging with the exciter, my hand approaches the exciter tower and the flyback screams and gets to resonance also.

Heres my setup - I'll post a video soon.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on January 25, 2011, 01:32:31 PM
Sorry for the unbelievably large pic - im terrible with computers.

Heres the vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPYUtBJOPdY
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 25, 2011, 05:33:53 PM
@flathunter

Interesting use of an AV-plug!

May be one should try to limit the Voltage in your AV-plug with a Zener-Diode as indicated in the drawing below? As long as the big capacitor stays charged well enough to drive the fly back, the voltage would stay at e.g. 13 Volt (with a 13 V Zener Diode).

I guess, it is the neon at the base of the transistor that discharges excess Voltage? Once Voltage is stabilized with the Zener diode, one could use a resistor there.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on January 25, 2011, 06:58:45 PM
Nice work conrad.  I found a TIP41C last night.  Do you think those would work about the same as the TIP31c?  I haven't tried using a diode on the base as I found it last night but so far no luck with it. 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 25, 2011, 08:23:25 PM
Again I little better, MPSA06 and TIP31C Darlington pair.

With this strange Darlington pair (MPSA06 and TIP31C) and C3=100pF, I get the impression that the 0.6 Watt version is a little brighter than with two TIP31Cs. Still there is this strange double triggering at the base of the transistor (which probably prohibits even better performance).

@Stefan (hartiberlin): a diode between base of transistor and GND does not prohibit the formation of negative spikes, it is the diode between trigger coil and base that does this. A zener diode between base and GND could limit the positive spike at the base (but it is so small anyway in my circuit).

@e2matrix: TIP41C should work (I do not have any), especially in combination with a MPSA06. I think your trigger coil is the problem. It is not so easy to find a good trigger coil in a fly back transformer, some might not have any useful trigger coil at all. One could try a Slayer Exciter version in this case (secondary at the base of the transistor, as some people did successfully with their fly back transformer). Further up in this thread I posted a Slayer Exciter with a big tower coil and you could use this circuit with your fly back transformer.

It is also difficult to get C1 and R1 right. One should start with R1 = 100K and change C1 between 1 nF, 10nF, 100nF and 1000nF till it works. Once it works, careful adjustment of R1 then defines the power consumption.

I find, that the diode between trigger coil and base of the transistor is important. C3 (parallel to this diode) is only a little touch.

Also C2 has an influence, should be at least 100 uF.

I am still waiting for delivery of ten different fly back transformers (for obsolete PC-monitors). Once they are here, I will go into that "trigger coil problem". I also think that my little (yellow) fly back transformer (which I used for all the circuits I talked about lately) has a no good trigger coil, hence this strange double triggering I am measuring. The trigger coil in a Joule Thief type circuit must have a certain strength (Voltage of the signal and Amperage to sustain it over the switching of the transistor). If the trigger signal is too strong, one can do something (diode between trigger coil and base, and zener diode between base and GND), but if the signal is too weak, no luck.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 26, 2011, 02:33:00 AM
Heres my setup - I'll post a video soon.
@flathunter , in regard to Reply #187, Page 13
I like the circuit, but the photo size is extensive, all over the screen, until I invoke the .JPG link at the bottom.  It fills up the page then, and it printable.

It really is an unusual diagram.  Reminds me of a Tesla coil with a power takeoff coil over the tower coil.

Have you built one yet?  If so, did you get it to function in electrical resonance?

--Lee
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nul-points on January 26, 2011, 02:21:27 PM
the schematic above is drawn with the 2 diodes on the AV plug reversed

as shown they'll charge the capacitor with a -ve voltage for the darlington collector supply (NPN needs +ve supply)

they should be pointing in the same sense as the Zener diode addition given by Conrad
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: wings on January 26, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
I studied some more the basics of capacitors and what we probably have here with the
Joule Ringer is, that the short discharge pulses are just recharged by dielectric absorption:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption

Dielectric absorption is the name given to the effect by which a capacitor that has been charged for a long time discharges only incompletely when briefly discharged. Although an ideal capacitor would remain at zero volts after being discharged, real capacitors will develop a small voltage, a phenomenon that is also called soakage or battery action. For some dielectrics, such as many polymer films, the resulting voltage may be less than 1-2% of the original voltage, but it can be as much as 15 - 25% for electrolytic capacitors or supercapacitors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_capacitor#Dielectric_absorption_.28soakage.29

Some types of dielectrics, when they have been holding a voltage for a long time, maintain a "memory" of that voltage: after they have been quickly fully discharged and left without an applied voltage, a voltage will gradually be established which is some fraction of the original voltage. For some dielectrics 10% or more of the original voltage may reappear. This phenomenon of unwanted charge storage is called dielectric absorption or soakage, and it effectively creates a hysteresis or memory effect in capacitors.

The percentage of the original voltage restored depends upon the dielectric and is a non-linear function of original voltage.[2]

In many applications of capacitors dielectric absorption is not a problem but in some applications, such as long-time-constant integrators, sample-and-hold circuits, switched-capacitor analog-to-digital converters, and very low-distortion filters, it is important that the capacitor does not recover a residual charge after full discharge, and capacitors with low absorption are specified[3]. For safety, high-voltage capacitors are often stored with their terminals short circuited.

Some dielectrics have very low dielectric absorption, e.g., polystyrene, polypropylene, NPO ceramic, and Teflon. Others, in particular those used in electrolytic and supercapacitors, tend to have high absorption.


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondensator_%28Elektrotechnik%29#Temperaturabh.C3.A4ngigkeit

Kondensatortyp                                                     Dielektrische Absorption
Kunststoff-Folienkondensatoren, Polyesterdielektrikum    0,2 bis 0,25 %
Kunststoff-Folienkondensatoren, Polypropylendielektrikum    0,01 bis 0,05 %
Keramikkondensatoren, X7R                                            0,6 bis 1 %
Keramikkondensatoren, Z5U                                            2,0 bis 2,5 %
Aluminium-Elektrolytkondensatoren                                    etwa 10 bis 15 %


So alufoil electrolyte caps can have an automatic  recharge rate of 15 % due to
dielectric absorption !

So it really depends also on what kind of electrolyte capacitor you are using for the Joule Ringer circuit.

It must be a cap that has a high dielectric absorption !
from:
http://www.keith-snook.info/capacitor-soakage.html

"For any fixed charge { Q } on the plates of a capacitor the voltage will fall if the plates move together { V=Q/C } and will increase if the plates move apart — If a dielectric material can be readily compressed and relax back because it is made of fibrous paper soaked in oil and or the foil of the plates is loosely wound then the plates will move together as the capacitor is charged — The value of C will increase and give a greater charge Q for any applied voltage

After a rapid charge and removal of the supply — the voltage across a capacitor can rise beyond the supply voltage which is most likely due to the compressed dielectric relaxing back to its natural position and its original value of C — After a rapid discharge — where the high current pulls the plates together — the remaining low voltage will rise as the residual charge on the plates is again subjected to decreasing C as the dielectric relaxes back — These effects are easy to measure but not easy to isolate from other effects like chemical and molecular changes in the dielectric"

parametric effect?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 26, 2011, 09:57:50 PM
Double triggering of transistor TIP31C solved, more efficient

I connected the collector of the MPSA06 to 12V with a 500 Ohm resistor. This resolved the double triggering and made the the circuit a bit more efficient. May be it is wishful thinking, but the CFL looks now as bright with 0.3 Watt as it was before with 0.6 Watt. (Increasing Wattage by using a R1 below 100K just heats up the TIP31C and does not bring a spectacular brightness.)

My playing with this circuit showed, that the trigger pulse is very important and should have a nice shape to switch the circuit cleanly. Using the MPSA06 as an amplifier for the trigger pulse helped, because the trigger pulse from my little fly back transformer is rather week.

It would be nice to have a short and strong trigger pulse (may be 5 Volt) with about 1 KHz. But higher frequency would not hurt if the pulses are shorter (but still strong).

I promise, this is the last post about this circuit, it has outlived itself. I have to go on with a different fly back transformer or a good tower coil.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2011, 12:55:40 AM
@all

I watched a video made by John Bedini , please watch it too !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8vnHVV25tU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Ok the important part is that a iron coil wound in the same way as a copper coil will exhibit opposite polarity .

If both coil setup are the same , the North and South of the magnet will be at the opposite end .

Now why is this important , lets say you make a bifillar copper and iron and pulse the copper coil the emf induced in the second coil usually is in the opposite direction but not with iron , the induced field will be going in the same direction as the current , this would suggest that using a bifillar copper coil would need to be either both coil wound in opposite direction or swapping polarity on on coil .


Now why would i write all that , well this is a highway system each wire there own respective side , what happen you use the pair as a secondary ?

But i see it more as a blood system veins and arteries are the same each have there own direction , emptying the cap and filling it back up at the same time .

Also the iron/copper pair theoretically should cancel each other , but the NS coil works , there is something there we can not see ,but it still is there !

That would really explain Leedskalnin suction effect , like to spring stuck together ...

Mark
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on January 27, 2011, 11:33:59 AM
@conrad,
well done.
Looking forward to see your new flyback coil experiments.

@MK1
well iron coils have totally different BackEmf properties, than copper coils.

P.S: I like the Pyrite-Magnesium battery of Bedini.

I played recently also with Pyrite, but did not try it with
Magnesium, so great what John found out how to
get usable power out of this rock battery.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: ltseung888 on January 29, 2011, 05:17:20 AM
From the Joule Ringer Thread in Overunity.com (Reply 182)

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10179.msg272131#msg272131

@itseung888

Ok now it seems you managed to get others to see the potential of the Joule thief

Good work ! But now we need to address the real issue here .

You showed poor judgment in changing the name of the JT to your fleet shit , this doesn't give you the right to steal work from others and get the credit for it .

I personally think you did a good job , because no one would have done what you have done , lets clarify that you did not invent the fleet because it was already there and called the Joule thief , thousands of people put there efforts together for a common goal , and that goal was not to provide you with retirement money , we are in this mess because of people taking advantage of others , to prove you are not one of those , stop calling the JT something else then a JOULE THIEF .

I must say i feel cheated by the fact that you try to steal the JT from the people that  conceived it , i personally put 2 years of my time in this project , and that was a gift to the world not to you , you are part of the world and deserve access to it but not to take it as your own , you may think you did great by proving what most of us know , the only problem in doing that is that you removed our anonymity , now we will be a target , more work for everyone fighting all the trolls , our relative peace in conducting our experiment may be a thing of the past .

Now you know why others did not pursue the cop verification , but since you are simple man you did not catch that , i tried to tell you !

All and all , thank for helping the JT cause .

Dear Mk1,

You gave a reason for the Joule Thief and Joule Ringer people not pursing the COP verification.  I accept that.

However, I hold a totally different view.  I believe that we should conclusively demonstrate that COP can be greater than 1 to benefit the World.  We should invite the established academic establishment (e.g. PhysicsProf) to verify and confirm that.  The resulting publicity will provide much more support and funding to this kind of research.

Poynt99 is probably the only one in the OUR forum with two good oscilloscopes at his disposal.  I thought that I was deprived when I had two oscilloscopes in my bedroom in Hong Kong.  The working space was less than 50 square feet.  Now I realized that it was a luxury compared with the researchers in USA.  Many of the outspoken forum members do not even have one oscilloscope and they claim to have years of experience! 

If you traced the history of FLEET (from the Pulsed DC transformer with Embedded Magnets Thread) in the overunity.com forum, you will find that the term was coined even before I used the Joule Thief as the oscillating power source.  The original oscillating power source was the cheap signal generator from China!

You can use a different term such as LT-JT instead of FLEET.  The LT-JT is different from the standard JT with a secondary because the COP must be tuned to be greater than 1 to be qualified as FLEET.  As PhysicsProf have confirmed – not every JT with a secondary can have COP greater than 1.  He lowered the input power and the COP dropped to below 1. 

Sorry that I blew away your collective cover and anonymity.  Ask Stefan to watch out for the trolls and kick them out.  I regret that I did not do that.  Now I enjoy my moderator privilege at my OUR bench.

Lawrence Tseung
Director
Help Seedlings Innovate Foundation Limited
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on January 29, 2011, 05:34:28 AM
@Lt

I will say this , i hope you understand this .

The problem is not the people its the system , showing them is useless .

Plus if you ever get big company involved it will only mean a making money opportunity for them , this can't solve anything .

It need to be so simple and easy to do that everyone can make there own from scrap and trash .

Give the power to the people to make it them self .

I know you agree with all the previous , but don't get too far of your self .

Yes you seem to have some good JT , but i don't think they are that good i have seen better really . And ingenious ways of using it .

I do admire your persistence , even if i don't agree with all you say and do .

But on the most part  :D , you are a good Human .


Mark   
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on January 29, 2011, 09:18:39 AM
Sorry guys!

I made a little mistake in the circuit of my flyback oscillator (use of the word ''my'' is dubious....the schematic is an improvised version of slayers exciter and conrad and xees and koolers flyback designs.)

The correct version can be found on energeticforum.com - im afraid to post any more pics on here as it seems to screw up the screen.  Sorry again!  (IN WORDS - the secondary on the flyback connects directly to the plus on the cap - it doesnt go between the resistor and small cap)

Please try using an av plug near an exciter field to charge the caps on your joule ringers - i think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the excellent results.  Have patience and use an LED/av to sniff out when the flyback (or trigger transformer) reaches resonance - if it suddenly loses resonance, just put your arm near the exciter tower.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on January 31, 2011, 03:35:47 AM
Here my latest build.  50v 9700uf.

E Core  (ICH) 0P-45224-KIT:

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerPotC/FerPotC-2.html

Transistor taken from:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G9614
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Taylor1992 on January 31, 2011, 04:46:02 AM
I'm dying to see this next video
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 31, 2011, 01:24:10 PM
@lasersaber:

Without a circuit diagram and details about transformer and coils, it remains some sort of a teaser.

I believe it is working as you say, but I could not replicate the alleged performance (see my many posts in this thread).

+ @all:

My tests (with a little fly back transformer) showed not difference between a "resistor-capacitor pair" and a "coil terminated with four 1N60 diodes" connecting the trigger coil to +V. Obviously I am doing something wrong. My best performance was a power consumption of around 5 mA with 12 Volt and around 300 Hz. The brightness of the 15 Watt CFL was low (like one of the small CFLs on your latest photo). For a decent brightness (reading at 30 cm distance) I needed 35 mA with 12 Volt.

May be the secondary has to sit on the base of the transistor (or on the other end of the trigger coil) like in a Slayer Exciter?

I got ten surplus fly back transformers (for PC-Monitors), all different. Removing the core (of two transformers) was no problem (I leave the others as they are for the moment). Without core (as kooler did) I hope to be able to run the circuit at a higher frequency (which should result in higher brightness of the CFL).

A question at experts: One of my fly back transformers has the HV-cable (the one with the suction cap) missing. Examination of the "hole" where the cable should be, showed no metal part in it. Is it possible that the HV-cable is not actually connected to the secondary coil but receives the high voltage by induction? (Just being very near the coil along its whole height?) I do not want to rip out the HV-cable from one of my other fly back transformers (to have a look) for fear of not being able to reconnect it properly.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on January 31, 2011, 01:49:55 PM
@Conrad

Quote
Without a circuit diagram and details about transformer and coils, it remains some sort of a teaser.

I will post a video showing step by step how to build this device in the near future.  The delay on that has been because I do not want to have to remake the video again and again as the device improves.  I am now at a reasonable level of performance, I have found exact parts and where they can be ordered from and I know how to wind the transformer from scratch.  When I get the video done it will be all that's needed to replicate the device as seen in my last photo.
 
Quote
I believe it is working as you say, but I could not replicate the alleged performance (see my many posts in this thread).

Which camera transformers did you use?  The only ones I have gotten to work were the Fuji AA version.  The transistor that comes with that camera works best as well.  Did you ever replicate the circuit as shown in my video titled "Joule Ringer update + schematic."  The only difference between that version and my newest one is that I made the new transformer myself, used a different transistor and added the second coil to smooth it out a little.  I works almost the same without the second coil and is just as bright.

Quote
+ @My tests (with a little fly back transformer) showed not difference between a "resistor-capacitor pair" and a "coil terminated with four 1N60 diodes" connecting the trigger coil to +V. Obviously I am doing something wrong. My best performance was a power consumption of around 5 mA with 12 Volt and around 300 Hz. The brightness of the 15 Watt CFL was low (like one of the small CFLs on your latest photo). For a decent brightness (reading at 30 cm distance) I needed 35 mA with 12 Volt.

I am amazed you and others have gotten this to work so well using a fly back transformer.  I will have to try again but I could never get it to work very well with one.  Thanks sharing all your work on this project.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on January 31, 2011, 02:52:01 PM
@lasersaber:  Thank you for your reply, I understand your hesitation to talk about unfinished work. Making a good video is also a lot of work.

I did not use the transformer from a disposable camera. My choice was the little fly back transformer depicted in the photo below, because I found it in my collection of forgotten and useless things. But winding your own transformer is best because one can control the parameters.

I could make it work with a tower coil (75 mm diameter, 1000 turns, 0.3 mm enameled coper wire) and a 9 turn pancake driver coil (0.8 mm enameled copper wire). But it also had quite a high power consumption near 15 mA at up to 24 Volt in the best case (see at the beginning of page 8 in this thread, also on page 7).

My feeling is, that the Slayer type driving of the base of the transistor is the trick. But I could not do this with the little yellow transformer, only with the tower coil. The interesting thing with a Slayer type circuit is the absence of a trigger coil (because the secondary acts as the trigger).

Strange things are going on at the base of the transistor with the little yellow transformer and I could never solve this issues to my satisfaction. The base going several Volts below the emitter seems to be the worst and I could only solve this with a diode, either like Slayer does, a diode from base to GND, cathode at base; or a diode between trigger coil and base of transistor, also cathode at base, as depicted in my last diagram posted.

I am looking forward to transformer and coil winding according to lasersaber. Somewhere in my house there is a transformer core (similar to what you are showing on the photo), I only have to find it. But I rather believe in big air coils, if only because they look so cool; like Frankenstein technology from the 19th century. Strange claims have to be backed up with strange looking contraptions, otherwise people do not believe them. So, if you want a huge audience for your YouTube videos, put some huge coils in them.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on January 31, 2011, 04:57:54 PM
Heres a flyback ringer being charged by an exciter on 1AA in a phone charger.  Powers a 36W CFL brighter than ive ever seen when just using an exciter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsRxtgrdRh4

Ive tried the same setup with 32V @ 1A.  Everything in the room lights up and the ringer rings for a loooong time  ;D

 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on February 01, 2011, 11:31:42 PM
Here is a quick update video showing my latest build running in a few different configurations.  Sorry about how dark the video is, before I uploaded it to YouTube it looked much better.

Video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0NTJIa331w
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Munetaka on February 01, 2011, 11:56:55 PM
Hi Laser Saber, nice to meet you.

I have some questions of your joule ringer.

I see that you use a bifilar coil, but if you don't use bifilar, the cap it discharge faster?

How much miliamps do you get from the secondary with the CFL and bifilar?

In your other joule ringer videos I see that the part of bifilar circuit, it was open for a few seconds and you were shorting with your fingers. I thought that it was the feedback circuit, but the caps didn't discharge at all(without feedback) can you exaplain me that part ,i'm confuse. U_U

--

That's not so important but, how can you get HV with the tiny transformer from tiny joule ringer circuit? I mean, the transformer it was smaller than a coin. How many turns from primary and secondary?


well, that's all for now, thank you!
And sorry for some english mistakes(i'm spanish), bye!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: kooler on February 02, 2011, 01:56:31 AM
hey guys
this is the transistor that is in the high voltage board that lasersaber showed
h1061 is the number

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/143890/PMC/H1061.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/143890/PMC/H1061.html)

robbie
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on February 02, 2011, 10:21:08 AM
@lasersaber:

I do not know about the other readers of this thread, but I feel let down and teased again. No circuit diagram, what is the second coil doing, how many turns and which wire on the transformer and the coils? Is that so difficult to tell?

Do you want other people to replicate this circuit or do you want to brag in a rather strange way? Look what I have got, but I like to hold back the only interesting stuff to get some attention! Have fun with that, but it is not my kind of fun.

Well, either we talk about your circuit in a serious way or we play sucker games. I do not like the video, this is not a practical way to talk to technically oriented readers. The intention is not to transmit information, I wounder what intentions are behind it. Must be a Freudian thing beyond me. This Forum is full of such psychological interactions. I suggest a video art forum if the point is a well made video for entertainment purposes and self-portrayal. Take a photo of a simple hand drawing with some notes on it, that is more than enough for electronics buffs.

There are a handful of folks handing out information in this thread, but I do not understand what you want to say? Do you want to tell us how great you are? We should set up a thread with the title "Look what I have got, but I won't tell, because I or the thingy are too good for you low lifers".

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: happyfunball on February 02, 2011, 10:33:15 AM
@lasersaber:

I do not know about the other readers of this thread, but I feel let down and teased again. No circuit diagram, what is the second coil doing, how many turns and which wire on the transformer and the coils? Is that so difficult to tell?

Do you want other people to replicate this circuit or do you want to brag in a rather strange way? Look what I have got, but I like to hold back the only interesting stuff to get some attention! Have fun with that, but it is not my kind of fun.

Well, either we talk about your circuit in a serious way or we play sucker games. I do not like the video, this is not a practical way to talk to technically oriented readers. The intention is not to transmit information, I wounder what intentions are behind it. Must be a Freudian thing beyond me. This Forum is full of such psychological interactions. I suggest a video art forum if the point is a well made video for entertainment purposes and self-portrayal. Take a photo of a simple hand drawing with some notes on it, that is more than enough for electronics buffs.

There are a handful of folks handing out information in this thread, but I do not understand what you want to say? Do you want to tell us how great you are? We should set up a thread with the title "Look what I have got, but I won't tell, because I or the thingy are too good for you low lifers".

Greetings, Conrad

1) Lasersaber is not required to share the work he's doing with anyone

2) He normally does post schematics take a deep breath and be civil.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: penno64 on February 02, 2011, 10:37:44 AM
Ditto HFB
Penno
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on February 02, 2011, 11:17:22 AM
As I said, a low lifer like me wants to know how many turns of which wire to wind on which core and how to hook up the components. But I understand that bigger thinkers are way above such unimportant considerations.

If you do not want to share, why talk about it in riddles? If I want to keep something to my self I would not even hint at it and by all means I would not show a photo or a video. But I am a simpleton, not fit for the heady stuff.

I use a soldering iron, an oscilloscope and DMMs and I really build something. It is not important and not OU. But I like it and I like to talk about it with other interested folks who want to say something beyond "I am here" and also really build something they want to share.

(If you have made a great invention, do not even tell your best friends and family, they will steal it from you and become stinking rich, while you are left behind. Black men will come and get you! You know, they are monitoring specially this thread, because there are great treasures hidden here, which have to be suppressed. I am also constantly looking for stuff which I can sell for millions. So keep your secrets, just write some useless hints, then it will stay in your control and you will harvest the great benefits all alone while suckers like me will cringe in the dust. Oh, they are knocking on my door, I have to run. But I have lasersaber's videos on a USB-memory-stick hidden in the basement, they will not find it. I will sell them to the Chinese because the Russians are not buying any more.)

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I hope everybody gets it, that the phrases in parentheses are an attempt at humor.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: happyfunball on February 02, 2011, 11:33:24 AM
Conrad, give lasersaber time to post a schematic. Perhaps he feels none is necessary, as all of the components are in clear view and it's a highly simplified setup.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on February 02, 2011, 01:43:43 PM
@kooler

Thanks for looking that up.  That is the same transistor.  It seems to work really well.  A tip31 also works about the same but I am out right now and waiting for another hundred to arrive.  I have gone through at least fifty disposable cameras and all the transistors within many miles around playing with this circuit.

@conradelektro

The circuit diagram is the one on my video titled "Joule Ringer update + schematic." with the changes mentioned in the latest video.  Basically replace the diodes with a 4 mega ohm pot, use a tip31 or h1061 transistor and replace the transformer with the E Core  (ICH) 0P-45224-KIT.

Quote
what is the second coil doing,

The second coil I use when I want to optimally tune the circuit.  It has many bifilar layers with different wire gauges.  I just tap into it in different places to adjust the frequency on the device.  The neon's, spark gap and second coil are all there for making fine adjustments to the performance of the device and testing new ideas.

Quote
how many turns and which wire on the transformer and the coils? Is that so difficult to tell?

It actually is kind of is difficult to tell.  I have made two of these transformers.  The first one used 40 gauge wire.  I wound it until the bobbin was almost full.  I only left enough room for a layer of tape and two final layers of 18-gauge hookup wire.  This transformer performed really well until the fine 40 gauge wire started arcing and burning up on the inside.  The second one I made is the one you see on the video.  The only difference on it is that I used 30 gauge wire instead of 40 and one layer of hookup wire.  There are a number of fine points about the way it is wound that cannot be easily illustrated on paper.  I plan on showing the process in video or 3D graphics.

Quote
Well, either we talk about your circuit in a serious way or we play sucker games. I do not like the video, this is not a practical way to talk to technically oriented readers. The intention is not to transmit information, I wounder what intentions are behind it.

It was to transmit information about the current status of the device.  I also wanted to show that the new transformer works well.  We are no longer tied to having to use Fuji AA transformers.  Sorry that the video bugged you so much.

Quote
Must be a Freudian thing beyond me. This Forum is full of such psychological interactions. I suggest a video art forum if the point is a well made video for entertainment purposes and self-portrayal.

I find it strange that this is coming from you considering you were the one trying to encourage me to do things on my videos if for no other reason then to just to impress people.

"But I rather believe in big air coils, if only because they look so cool; like Frankenstein technology from the 19th century. Strange claims have to be backed up with strange looking contraptions, otherwise people do not believe them. So, if you want a huge audience for your YouTube videos, put some huge coils in them."
 
If I ever put huge coils in my videos it will be because they are crucial to the operation of the device, not to try an impress viewers of my videos.

Quote
Take a photo of a simple hand drawing with some notes on it, that is more than enough for electronics buffs.

There is more complexity to the transformer then can be shown in a simple hand drawing .  Take apart a Fuji AA transformer and you will see what I mean.  Everything else that is important I have already shown in a simple drawing.

Quote
There are a handful of folks handing out information in this thread, but I do not understand what you want to say? Do you want to tell us how great you are? We should set up a thread with the title "Look what I have got, but I won't tell, because I or the thingy are too good for you low lifers".

While you are waiting for me to share more information you could try replicating the circuit schematic I already shared in in the past with the actual parts specified in the schematic.  I think it's cool that you got it working with the fly back but it's not the same as what I specified in the schematic.  It probably has a different amount of "turns" and "wire" than a Fuji AA transformer has.

The reason I am still waiting on doing the build video is that the parts for building it are all on order.  I do not really want to take apart something just to rebuild it on video.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 02, 2011, 04:12:35 PM
Because no body is giving @lasersaber any money to buy parts, he said that he make videos and allow ads on it in order to cover the expenses he has experimenting to share with us.

The least we should do to support him is to watch his videos once in a while instead of downloading them and watching them from our hardisks.

That way he can keep sharing with us his knowledge.

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Munetaka on February 02, 2011, 04:49:07 PM
Neves Oliveras

Jesus, tu entiendes el circuito de lasersaber?
Es decir, la parte del transformador alto voltaje y la parte del secundario y su bobina bifilar.

Espero que entiendas español ^^

un saludo
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on February 02, 2011, 05:03:30 PM
@lasersaber:

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate that. For me the message of your videos was "replicate that, so that we learn more". Well, my question therefore was "What do you you want me to replicate".

To go on after that misunderstanding, I post your circuit as I understand it. My main issue with your circuit is the coil at pins 2 and 4 (which I labeled coil H in the drawing):

- If it is left out, we are back at Slayer's circuit, which I tried with self-wound coils and I got good results (still 10 to 20 mA power draw at 12 Volt or even 24 Volt). See at the beginning of page 8 in this thread and on page 7.

- If it is there, I would call it a "trigger coil", which triggers the switching on (rather than off) of the transistor.

This "trigger coil" gave me much trouble with my little fly back transformer. May be it is there where the Fuji-Camera-Transformer comes in. I now got some 10 fly back transformers (all different, for obsolete PC-monitors). And before I go into them I want to learn more about this "trigger coil", because it is crucial according to my tests. At least it is a reason for me to go into self wound coils or transformers, in oder to shape this trigger pulse just right (by adjusting the number of turns of this coil).

Since your circuit seems to perform interestingly well as far as power consumption is concerned, I hoped to get some solid hints from you about this trigger coil?

Drive coil and secondary coil will work within a wide margin (the only real drawback in case of error will be less Voltage), but the trigger coil is the determining factor for success.

Bifilar coil: I could not see a benefit in the bifilar coil over a capacitor (connecting the base of the transistor to +Vcc), but I keep my mind open. Bifilar coil or capacitor, it is there where the "slowing down" of the frequency happens. The trigger pulses are short and should rapidly follow each other (going to over a Megahertz, like in the Slayer circuit), but they come far apart because the base of the transistor somehow does not recover quickly. To me it looks like the base goes below the emitter and the transistor takes its time to recover from that normally unwanted situation, because the base finds high resistance everywhere to offload a negative charge.

The high resistor (1N60 diodes or Mega-ohms) between base of the transistor and +Vcc (via the bifilar coil or a capacitor) does not pull the transistor up (into the ON-state) because the current is too little. It is the current from the trigger coil or the secondary which does it. And it seems to be the negative part (of the sin-curve) that causes the delay (because of the situation "base below emitter"). Remember, in an ordinary Joule Thief, the base is pulled down by the trigger coil (the transistor is shut OFF).

In general: May be I always misunderstand the purpose of this forum (in my unbounded naivety). Isn't it to share? Or I am completely wrong? And I get disappointed when people make it so difficult to follow what they are doing. If you show something to people, don't you want them to understand as well as possible what you are offering them? Or is the purpose something else than offering information? Well, I am too dumb to get it, excuse me for my thickness.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on February 02, 2011, 07:33:05 PM
@Conrad

give lasersaber a break.  You do nice circuits, but he was the only guy who openly shared this project - as such its really his thread.  By combining various bits and bobs that you and xee and kooler and lasersaber showed, i can now get a 36W CFL lit for ages with no battery - IM CHUFFED!  And its all thank to sharing - which we all do as best we can.

@ Lasersaber

keep posting - theres a good reason why you get a lot of views and fans out there in the land of internet.  Its precisely because you do show openly how to make interesting devices.  Thanks!

@everyone else

where are the next ringers?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Montec on February 02, 2011, 10:23:59 PM
Hello all
I am not sure this is the best place to post this information but here goes.
If you are looking for a schematic on a fly back transformer, try using the information on the transformer and this site http://www.icxinyi.com/zlk.php?id=1876002 (http://www.icxinyi.com/zlk.php?id=1876002) to find the HR number.  Then go this pdf http://tvservice.org/files/HR_trafos.pdf (http://tvservice.org/files/HR_trafos.pdf) to find the schematic of the transformer in question. You can also do a search on the HR number.
:)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on February 02, 2011, 11:29:42 PM
@Montec

Thank you for the links to fly back transformer information, this is always useful.

Unfortunately I could not find the ones I got (KÖNIG might be spelled as KOENIG):

KÖNIG MAT33402
ELDOR 1182.0587
ELDOR 1072.0453
KÖNIG MAT33052
KÖNIG MAT33047
KÖNIG MAT33013
KÖNIG MAT33417 
+ three transformers without any readable ID

I could figure out the pins of the simplest one (no ID at all) and the pins of a second one are mostly identified (also has no ID). I started with the most odd ones, because I removed the core (which might not be a good idea in the end).

This site has a lot of info (but also nothing about my fly backs)  http://www.donberg.ie

And this is useful  http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/labhvps/tht.htm

I also would like to know how the HV-cable is normally connected to the secondary of a fly back transformer. I looked carefully at a transformer that has the cable missing, and I did not find any metal part where the HV-cable could have been connected to. The "hole" where the HV-cable was is obvious, but there is no clue as to how it got a connection to the secondary. I do not want to rip off the HV-cable from one of other transformers, because I might not be able to reconnect it.

Are there people in this forum who used a fly back transformer that had the HV cable missing?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 03, 2011, 03:31:32 AM
Neves Oliveras

Jesus, tu entiendes el circuito de lasersaber?
Es decir, la parte del transformador alto voltaje y la parte del secundario y su bobina bifilar.

Espero que entiendas español ^^

un saludo

Saludos @munetaka!

Entiendo español.  Acerca del circuito de @lasersaber, para mi todavia es un misterio la configuracion del transformador.
El problema estriba en que el no explica claro los detalles.

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2011, 01:34:07 AM
@lasersaber:

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate that. For me the message of your videos was "replicate that, so that we learn more". Well, my question therefore was "What do you you want me to replicate".

To go on after that misunderstanding, I post your circuit as I understand it. My main issue with your circuit is the coil at pins 2 and 4 (which I labeled coil H in the drawing):

- If it is left out, we are back at Slayer's circuit, which I tried with self-wound coils and I got good results (still 10 to 20 mA power draw at 12 Volt or even 24 Volt). See at the beginning of page 8 in this thread and on page 7.

- If it is there, I would call it a "trigger coil", which triggers the switching on (rather than off) of the transistor.

This "trigger coil" gave me much trouble with my little fly back transformer. May be it is there where the Fuji-Camera-Transformer comes in. I now got some 10 fly back transformers (all different, for obsolete PC-monitors). And before I go into them I want to learn more about this "trigger coil", because it is crucial according to my tests. At least it is a reason for me to go into self wound coils or transformers, in oder to shape this trigger pulse just right (by adjusting the number of turns of this coil).

Since your circuit seems to perform interestingly well as far as power consumption is concerned, I hoped to get some solid hints from you about this trigger coil?

Drive coil and secondary coil will work within a wide margin (the only real drawback in case of error will be less Voltage), but the trigger coil is the determining factor for success.

Bifilar coil: I could not see a benefit in the bifilar coil over a capacitor (connecting the base of the transistor to +Vcc), but I keep my mind open. Bifilar coil or capacitor, it is there where the "slowing down" of the frequency happens. The trigger pulses are short and should rapidly follow each other (going to over a Megahertz, like in the Slayer circuit), but they come far apart because the base of the transistor somehow does not recover quickly. To me it looks like the base goes below the emitter and the transistor takes its time to recover from that normally unwanted situation, because the base finds high resistance everywhere to offload a negative charge.

The high resistor (1N60 diodes or Mega-ohms) between base of the transistor and +Vcc (via the bifilar coil or a capacitor) does not pull the transistor up (into the ON-state) because the current is too little. It is the current from the trigger coil or the secondary which does it. And it seems to be the negative part (of the sin-curve) that causes the delay (because of the situation "base below emitter"). Remember, in an ordinary Joule Thief, the base is pulled down by the trigger coil (the transistor is shut OFF).

In general: May be I always misunderstand the purpose of this forum (in my unbounded naivety). Isn't it to share? Or I am completely wrong? And I get disappointed when people make it so difficult to follow what they are doing. If you show something to people, don't you want them to understand as well as possible what you are offering them? Or is the purpose something else than offering information? Well, I am too dumb to get it, excuse me for my thickness.

Greetings, Conrad
Conrad this is his schematic . If failure persist for you then you should use his first EXACT parts . All other modifications would come after you completed his original design rather than forming some kind of exciter using forign materials and not getting Lasersabers results . Pin 1 is not connected to anything and is a dummy pin on the AA fuji transformer.
Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 04, 2011, 02:49:03 AM

I also would like to know how the HV-cable is normally connected to the secondary of a fly back transformer. I looked carefully at a transformer that has the cable missing, and I did not find any metal part where the HV-cable could have been connected to. The "hole" where the HV-cable was is obvious, but there is no clue as to how it got a connection to the secondary. I do not want to rip off the HV-cable from one of other transformers, because I might not be able to reconnect it.

Are there people in this forum who used a fly back transformer that had the HV cable missing?

Greetings, Conrad

Conrad

I have never seen a flyback transformer that used a connector  of any kind on the secondary......... I am sure your flyback with the missing coil is damaged.

gary
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 04, 2011, 04:07:26 AM
This might be a little off topic .

In this video a dialogue box pops up a minute or so into the video
In the box it explains a little about the electronics.

Something like  alot of resonant circuits with bifilar coils.
It sounds like he is using something similar to a ringer to amplify the power to the motor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3CYFlQbtV0&feature=related


gary
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Magluvin on February 04, 2011, 04:36:07 AM
Hey Resman

Im in the process of building an electric car, a fiero, and been studying it for a couple years.

In this vid the vehicle seems to be in a very very low gear, and believe it or not, the 12v bat will drive that motor. Not to 20mph, maybe only 10mph.   I work at a corvette restoration facility, and had a chance to sit on a rolling chassis and make it go by just turning the bare axle u joint on the differential by hand. I was testing this to imagine a Warp 11   an 11in motor from Netgain driving the drive shaft by bypassing the transmission, as is being done out there already.  My fiero is getting a Warp9    9in motor.  I will be able to do bout 70mph and have tons of torque in the bottom end, as electric motors are opposite of gas engines. 

But just a bit of info for thought.  Im not saying he is not doing the power conversion that he is claiming, as in using rf equip, but always be wary. ;]

According to Tesla, an ac induction motor would be best, and since this guy is into rf, an ac motor might be better.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: wings on February 04, 2011, 05:28:52 PM
This might be a little off topic .

In this video a dialogue box pops up a minute or so into the video
In the box it explains a little about the electronics.

Something like  alot of resonant circuits with bifilar coils.
It sounds like he is using something similar to a ringer to amplify the power to the motor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3CYFlQbtV0&feature=related


gary

also this one might be a little off topic but see the "Ismael Aviso antenna"  ... Tariel Kapanadze ... and this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGPeyrmlw_8
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: wings on February 05, 2011, 06:24:25 PM
also this one might be a little off topic but see the "Ismael Aviso antenna"  ... Tariel Kapanadze ... and this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGPeyrmlw_8

this one OU for sure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE2S_so0dR8&feature=player_embedded#
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on February 06, 2011, 01:28:24 AM
Hey Resman

Im in the process of building an electric car, a fiero, and been studying it for a couple years.

In this vid the vehicle seems to be in a very very low gear, and believe it or not, the 12v bat will drive that motor. Not to 20mph, maybe only 10mph.   I work at a corvette restoration facility, and had a chance to sit on a rolling chassis and make it go by just turning the bare axle u joint on the differential by hand. I was testing this to imagine a Warp 11   an 11in motor from Netgain driving the drive shaft by bypassing the transmission, as is being done out there already.  My fiero is getting a Warp9    9in motor.  I will be able to do bout 70mph and have tons of torque in the bottom end, as electric motors are opposite of gas engines. 

But just a bit of info for thought.  Im not saying he is not doing the power conversion that he is claiming, as in using rf equip, but always be wary. ;]

According to Tesla, an ac induction motor would be best, and since this guy is into rf, an ac motor might be better.

Mags
I know a bit about Ismael and his motor.  He's for real.  He's got some serious credentials as an engineer and Doug Konzen (well known motor builder energy researcher for many years) went with Ismael to see about selling the idea to Volvo if I recall correctly (or maybe BMW ?).  They got screwed over or at least that's the jest of what I remember about it.  Ismael is onto something with the repelling force as can be seen in some videos where a very small battery (AA I think) sends something like a 2 pound weight rocketing into the air some 30 feet or so. 
   I am not sure how this came up as it seems a bit off topic to the Joule Ringer I think so I apologize but just wanted to say I think Ismael is one of the good guys and has something real IMHO. 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on February 06, 2011, 02:18:54 AM
this one OU for sure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE2S_so0dR8&feature=player_embedded#

What does that have to do with OU or the Joule Ringer?  A guy playing an electric guitar ???    Did you get your link right?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2011, 06:14:49 AM
Hey Resman

Im in the process of building an electric car, a fiero, and been studying it for a couple years.

In this vid the vehicle seems to be in a very very low gear, and believe it or not, the 12v bat will drive that motor. Not to 20mph, maybe only 10mph.   I work at a corvette restoration facility, and had a chance to sit on a rolling chassis and make it go by just turning the bare axle u joint on the differential by hand. I was testing this to imagine a Warp 11   an 11in motor from Netgain driving the drive shaft by bypassing the transmission, as is being done out there already.  My fiero is getting a Warp9    9in motor.  I will be able to do bout 70mph and have tons of torque in the bottom end, as electric motors are opposite of gas engines. 

But just a bit of info for thought.  Im not saying he is not doing the power conversion that he is claiming, as in using rf equip, but always be wary. ;]

According to Tesla, an ac induction motor would be best, and since this guy is into rf, an ac motor might be better.

Mags

Mags

good luck with your project.
I looked at the netgain site........interesting motor.

gary
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Doug1 on February 06, 2011, 12:28:30 PM
http://www.l-3com.com/edd/products_traveling_wave_tube.htm
 These tubes work have been working for some time are in use and the working theory behind them can not be argued. Less all your cell phones and microwave ovens are a mass dillusion. How they work physically and for real in their most basic princable should be noted to scale and adjust to other levels of energy.
  Would you really pull a cold beer from an RV refrigerator which works off amonia absorption without a pump and claim it can not work without an electric pump?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2011, 09:01:18 PM
http://www.l-3com.com/edd/products_traveling_wave_tube.htm
 These tubes work have been working for some time are in use and the working theory behind them can not be argued. Less all your cell phones and microwave ovens are a mass dillusion. How they work physically and for real in their most basic princable should be noted to scale and adjust to other levels of energy.
  Would you really pull a cold beer from an RV refrigerator which works off amonia absorption without a pump and claim it can not work without an electric pump?

Doug

The animated gif on  your link is very good........
Do you have any experience with these tubes?
Do  you know how  powerful the magnets along the tube are?

The way I see it working is ....... the electron gun  shoots out a beam of electrons........ these electrons  travel down the tube with magnets around it.......the electron beam  has to fight the flux of the magnets all the way .......this slows it down and  adds to its effective energy.
When  the  beam reaches the collector  it is transformed  back into usable energy.

Is this  how you see it working?

If this is right it may  be possible  to make something similar but without the high tech stuff........like the electron gun and the collector to turn the beam back into a form of energy we can use for everyday stuff.

While looking for a way to get the effect of LARGE toroids without actually using large toroids I came up  with what I call a candy cane coil....... I named it after a candy cane because if you wrap  a few windings  around each toroid of a string of toroids with all the wraps in the same direction the windings progress around the string of toroids like the stripes of a candy cane.

Using  a long string  of toroids on a candy cane coil  you could set up a wave structure similar to what is described in your link.....A JT could possibly be used but I would think you would want a signal generator or something for a more stable frequency.

The toroids would  look alot like the magnets in the animated gif in your link.....except they would have the windings spiraling around them .

The second  part  ........the magnetic  field could  be created with a tube, some magnets and some tape .......
If magnets were stuck to a piece of tape  all with the same poles facing the same way....and that tape wrapped around a tube......it would make  a tube with the N pole either on the inside of the tube or the outside....I doubt if it really matters

anyway ....... if the candy cane  coil is put inside the tube  wrapped with magnets ......the  magnets  will subject the toroids to a specific  flux level..... overcoming this flux should slow down the pulses traveling along the candy cane coil at some specific power level.

It will be a balancing act......... to much power and the flux will not slow down the pulses much.........to little power and it will choke the pulses off.

Others here have tried attaching magnets to toroids and some have seemed to have some success.
In my tests sticking magnets to toroids  mostly  just raised the turn on voltage of the JT

running  a toroid coil in a magnetic field should be much different than sticking a magnet  to a toroid.
Sticking a magnet to a toroid should  act kind of like cutting a gap in the toroid........ the magnetic domains saturated by the magnet are effectively gone from the toroid as far as the circuit is concerned.

I would think with this device we would not want to saturate any of the toroids with magnetic flux...... All we would want to do is line up the magnetic domains and give them a little resistance to change .

If the right balance is achieved some of the flux of the magnets should be entrained by the pulses.

I think JT type pulses would work best....a high amplitude spike would have a wider bandwidth than standard RF making the flux level of the magnets less critical.

gary



 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: kooler on February 08, 2011, 06:44:30 AM
11volts..
3300uf cap..
flyback coil..
no bifilar..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATMDcRL3vF0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATMDcRL3vF0)

robbie
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on February 08, 2011, 11:02:47 AM
11volts..
3300uf cap..
flyback coil..
no bifilar..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATMDcRL3vF0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATMDcRL3vF0)

robbie

Great vid kooler!

5V (1AA in charger)
58000 micF cap
exciter charging flyback coil j.ringer
no bifilar
neon used in place of large Mohm resistor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewG-5MQI6K4
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: kooler on February 12, 2011, 05:24:48 AM
seth
i been working on a bunch on pc's lately so i haven't been able to get back here for 2 days..
so i was using a 300v 500ma transistor..
and my bwjt circuit on that small flyback..
i have a few other ideas to try soon..
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Doug1 on February 12, 2011, 12:30:23 PM
Gary
 Ive seen pictures of the candy cane.
 Your discribing the back wards wave tube. You can find data on the perticulars of that design floating around.It's used for satalite comunications it can carry serveral data streams in the form of different freq's at the same time. The fields in the coil around the conductor actually slow down the what is in the conductor but in doing so some energy in the form of magnetic feild strength is imparted to the coil from stream in the conductor.It would have to go through a second unit to increase the wave diameter using a reversal of the dirst unit. One or the other I suspect would have to be of a different length and width to get the desired results.
  I find it kind of strange how they are able to impart some of the strength of the magnetic feild into the energy stream of a week signal with a magnet to increase it at all. Im still working on a mental model in 3D. Try to take notice their use of winding directions. Im still leaning towards it needing to be incased in a copper tube with a earth ground and a antanna. Maybe a tube with speaker magnets at the ends.I like it ,its compact uses very little material.Best of all they did all the explaining and it is in use.No room for arguments.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 13, 2011, 03:16:02 AM
It would have to go through a second unit to increase the wave diameter using a reversal of the dirst unit. One or the other I suspect would have to be of a different length and width to get the desired results.

Doug

I am not so sure a second unit would be needed

It looks to me like they are just pushing a signal throuugh a magnetic field that is just strong enough to slow the signal down.

With their technology  they have to have a stage to make the electron beam and another stage to transform the electron  beam back into normal electricity.

With my version all that is needed is the candy cane coil a tube with magnets around it and something to make the pulses.

The ferrite in the toroids should  be very effective in capturing any magnetic energy entrained by the pulses.

If I have time I might play with the idea a little tomorrow.
I am not sure about the tube size.........but I am sure that because of the toroids we would  need alot less magnetic field than they use for the electron beam version.

I am thinking of keeping it simple........ set up a JT..... use a LED array or CFL as a load......(after the candy cane) ...........then slide the candy cane into the tube........if it goes out.....the magnets are to strong ......if the light stays the same ......either the magnets are to weak.........or I am wrong about the whole thing.


If the light gets brighter....... YOU have to come up with a name for the circuit

:)

gary

 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Doug1 on February 13, 2011, 01:10:50 PM
Well you must see it different then me then. I would have made it like the gaphic first.
 Maybe with a pencil a spring and a small donut type magnet using the pencil for the coil form since it already has a conductor in it just find one thin enough or sand one down. The outer spring has to have the right pitch enough to produce little bitty ringlets of fields that reach the inside conductor so it can interact with the conductor in the center of the pencil.
Gary you might also want to tuck this file away someplace for when you need it.To build your own test rig for your own uses.
HB, MS 01-21-2011 google will return the correct response.
Also i didnt see your question before<Do  you know how  powerful the magnets along the tube are?> week ,not greater then the magnetic feild caused in the reverse action from central conductor to coil around it except when looking for the opposite effect to increase the magnetic component of the coil by robbing inertia from the beam.
 I dont do names I have people who do that for me.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Doug1 on February 13, 2011, 03:14:37 PM
Graphite will enable you to determine if you are actually influencing the electrons with the outer magnetic feild of the coil and not the conductor meterial.Besides pencils are cheap.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 14, 2011, 01:20:39 AM
Graphite will enable you to determine if you are actually influencing the electrons with the outer magnetic feild of the coil and not the conductor meterial.Besides pencils are cheap.

Doug

I am not sure how graphite can show  if you are influencing the electrons

I also have some questions about the parts you talked about using
The parts you describe are very small and for the most part not low resistance........
One magnet may be enough  to prove something is possible........but the original unit had many magnets....It seems to me that if you use 1 magnet or dozens  you still only want to have enough magnetic flux to slow down the pulse............the big difference is how much time  you have to entrain then capture extra energy
My plan was to have my magnetic tube at least a ft long....


gary
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Doug1 on February 15, 2011, 12:40:31 PM
The pitch or angle of the feilds created from the coil around the conductor will have to be worked out experimentally .Tuned for the intended application.Thats why small parts.Working units are very small to begin with only a few centimeters for microwave range. If the parts you already have to play with are large then go for it. There are only two magnets required one for each termination of the outer coil which is fed with a signal as well. I beleive the magnets are to polarize while the signal is for bunching up the wave guide so it can grow in magnetic amplitude at the ends.
  Im still looking over the letter from Otto post.Very interesting stuff regarding materials.Not to much of a shock when you think about it. A vacume tube uses materials that work well in a vac. That doesnt mean there are no materials that will work well in open air just means they chose not to go that route back in the day.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 18, 2011, 05:09:46 AM
The pitch or angle of the feilds created from the coil around the conductor will have to be worked out experimentally .Tuned for the intended application.Thats why small parts.Working units are very small to begin with only a few centimeters for microwave range. If the parts you already have to play with are large then go for it. There are only two magnets required one for each termination of the outer coil which is fed with a signal as well. I beleive the magnets are to polarize while the signal is for bunching up the wave guide so it can grow in magnetic amplitude at the ends.
  Im still looking over the letter from Otto post.Very interesting stuff regarding materials.Not to much of a shock when you think about it. A vacume tube uses materials that work well in a vac. That doesnt mean there are no materials that will work well in open air just means they chose not to go that route back in the day.

Doug 

Are you sure that there are only 2 magnets?
I have watched the animation in your link several times
The word Magnets is a yellow color ........for a second or 2 what looks to me like a row of ring magnets is highlighted in the same yellow color then the magnets and the word magnets is pulsed a few times.


gary
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Doug1 on February 20, 2011, 04:15:10 PM
Your correct Gary
 I found autobiography on one of the inventors. The evntually ended up using farite beads with washers between them to create the effect of multible magnets.They also played with alternating stationary magnets between beads. It's a cool read so passing the link to ya.
http://www.smecc.org/john_r__pierce____electron_tubes.htm (http://www.smecc.org/john_r__pierce____electron_tubes.htm)
  I finally stumbled on the Daniel Dinggle vid where he clearly states that his gov could not help him or even consider getting involved with the HHO car because they have a signed agreement with world bank that prevents such efforts.Very depressing. I wonder if there is a copy of chaarter for the world bank floating around to confirm this is part of their charter. It would be nice to know with validation who's door step we should be crapping on and making it public.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 21, 2011, 05:19:10 AM
Your correct Gary
 I found autobiography on one of the inventors. The evntually ended up using farite beads with washers between them to create the effect of multible magnets.They also played with alternating stationary magnets between beads. It's a cool read so passing the link to ya.
http://www.smecc.org/john_r__pierce____electron_tubes.htm (http://www.smecc.org/john_r__pierce____electron_tubes.htm)
  I finally stumbled on the Daniel Dinggle vid where he clearly states that his gov could not help him or even consider getting involved with the HHO car because they have a signed agreement with world bank that prevents such efforts.Very depressing. I wonder if there is a copy of chaarter for the world bank floating around to confirm this is part of their charter. It would be nice to know with validation who's door step we should be crapping on and making it public.

Doug   

Thanks for the link
It gave me alot to think about.

The 2 frequency thing kept reminding me of the TPU
..... they use 3 frequencys....... what if one frequency was used kind of like an electro magnet   and the other 2 worked like  a Traveling wave tube?

I am wondering  about the helix...... how to  incorporate it into my design.

I have some basic ideas but nothing solid yet


Sense I plan on using pulses .......small disruptive discharges.
The coils will need to be high impedance .....
I was thinking the frequency of the second coil could be a lower harmonic of the original frequency.... in other words the second coil would  be in effect open except for every few cycles its transistor would  conduct and clip the peak off  of a cycle.......letting some power out while still maintaining over all resonance

It is my opinion that in alot of  experiments  with resonance  the experimenter tries to take to much power out effectively dampening the resonance itself.

gary
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 21, 2011, 05:47:10 AM
Your correct Gary
 I found autobiography on one of the inventors. The evntually ended up using farite beads with washers between them to create the effect of multible magnets.They also played with alternating stationary magnets between beads. It's a cool read so passing the link to ya.
http://www.smecc.org/john_r__pierce____electron_tubes.htm (http://www.smecc.org/john_r__pierce____electron_tubes.htm)
  I finally stumbled on the Daniel Dinggle vid where he clearly states that his gov could not help him or even consider getting involved with the HHO car because they have a signed agreement with world bank that prevents such efforts.Very depressing. I wonder if there is a copy of chaarter for the world bank floating around to confirm this is part of their charter. It would be nice to know with validation who's door step we should be crapping on and making it public.

Doug

I agree with the  making it public as public as possible is a good idea..........but I do not think  you will find what you are looking for in the  charter........it would  be written in legalese......only an expert can really know  what it means......... that is the way all the current laws are now........even a small simple bill is 1000 pages or better......it has to be written so  no one can understand it  ........if you understood all that is in  the bill you would want to kill some elected officials.

I think  the people behind the world bank and other organizations like that will get what is coming to them
They have a plan .......they call it the NEW WORLD ORDER.
There new world order involves one world goverment  with the super rich pulling the strings ..........in effect we ALL would be their slaves.

Luckily for us we are living in a very interesting time.
A NEW WORLD ORDER is starting to take hold .
Just watch the mideast

Those that are leading the way so far have it easy compared to us........ the corruption  they are fighting is out in the open.
The corruption of the free world governments  is much  harder to fight......it is well hidden for the most part.


I think that  every country  needs a bunch of people " Walking like an Egyption " to get rid of the corruption


gary



Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 22, 2011, 11:25:03 AM
@lasersaber:

I do not know about the other readers of this thread, but I feel let down and teased again. No circuit diagram, what is the second coil doing, how many turns and which wire on the transformer and the coils? Is that so difficult to tell?

Do you want other people to replicate this circuit or do you want to brag in a rather strange way? Look what I have got, but I like to hold back the only interesting stuff to get some attention! Have fun with that, but it is not my kind of fun.

Well, either we talk about your circuit in a serious way or we play sucker games. I do not like the video, this is not a practical way to talk to technically oriented readers. The intention is not to transmit information, I wounder what intentions are behind it. Must be a Freudian thing beyond me. This Forum is full of such psychological interactions. I suggest a video art forum if the point is a well made video for entertainment purposes and self-portrayal. Take a photo of a simple hand drawing with some notes on it, that is more than enough for electronics buffs.

There are a handful of folks handing out information in this thread, but I do not understand what you want to say? Do you want to tell us how great you are? We should set up a thread with the title "Look what I have got, but I won't tell, because I or the thingy are too good for you low lifers".

Greetings, Conrad

To the best of my understanding, I have used dot notation to illustrate the transformer, please see attached. And here I would briefly explain how I understand the working of the Joule Ringer. Note that I am no expert, so please excuse my rather brute way of expressing my thoughts below.

Static analysis of the Joule Ringer circuit:

1. The points of interest in the circuit: the pins 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 of the transformer; the + and - pin of the electrolytic capacitor; the E, B, C of the transistor.

2. The circuit consists of three loops (loops will be shown by visiting the points of interest as given above). Loop (1): +, 5, 6, C, E, - (this is the Joule Thief type driving loop). Loop (2): +, 4, 2, B, E, - (this is the Joule Thief type trigger loop, which clearly includes the bifiler coil, as does the next loop). Loop (3): +, 4, 3, - (this is the Big Joule Thief type power loop, which also includes the modified CFL).

Once identified these three loops in the circuit, let's call them driving, trigger, and power loops, and each loop contains exactly one part of the coil in the transformer, and let's call those coils the driving, trigger, and power coils.

Dynamic analysis of the Joule Ringer circuit:

The circuit works cyclically. Let's say the cycle starts at the moment when the driving coil 5,6 has no current.

The driving and trigger loops work almost the same way as the Joule Thief circuit, which I will pass for now (however, scope shots suggests that the transistor could switch on twice in one cycle will be explained later, let's ignore such subtlety for the time being, which won't really hurt much of the understanding of the first order effects).
Basically, the current in the driving coil climbs up flowing from pin 5 to 6, then at a certain point, the transistor turns off, and the current drops to zero all in a sudden, causing great spike of voltages in the other coils. As the current in the driving coil drops down to zero, the cycle starts again.

The power loop. When the current in the driving coil is climbing up, some induced induced voltage over the power coil (from pin 4 to 3), but the current should be tiny by reason of the diodes and the induced voltage being relatively small compared to what will happen next. Next, when the current in the driving coil collapses all in a sudden, huge spike of voltage is induced in the power coil (arching could be observed at this moment), the direction is from pin 2 to 4, causing a brief recharging of the electrolytic capacitor through the bifiler and diodes.

At the recharging moment, by reason of the capacitance of bifiler, big voltage is developed across it, and if the voltage is high enough (higher than the induced voltage in the trigger coil at that moment), the transistor could be turned on again briefly. That is why the scope shots suggests that the transistor could switch on twice in one cycle.

Comments on the bifiler and diodes

From the analysis above, the ideal function of the bifiler+diodes in the power loop is to encourage recharging of the electrolytic capacitor in the collapsing stage and discourage the current flow from the electrolytic capacitor in the building stage (when the current of the driving coil climbs up).  Replacing the diodes by a pot may still work because of the induced voltages on the power coil during the two stages are dramatically different in magnitude.

Finally, this analysis is limited in traditional wisdom, I can not exclude the possibility that some abnormal thing happened during the recharging stage, maybe in the bifiler coil or somewhere else.

Hope this somehow helps replicating.

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 22, 2011, 04:45:40 PM
Based on the understanding I have, I would like to propose a modified Joule Ringer circuit as in the attached. A diode is used to encourage recharging and forbid discharging. The value 1N4007 is tentative (ideally, it should have high breaking voltage and fast response). The 4M pot is for standard Joule Thief trigger coil configuration, which will regulate the frequency.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on February 22, 2011, 05:10:17 PM
@lanenal

That looks great!  I am on the road with work right now but I will give it a try when I get back in town.

@All

I am almost ready to post the DIY videos on how to build a joule ringer including the transformer.

I have also discovered that the Joule Ringer will run a lit CFL for a couple seconds after the power is disconnected, even with no electrolytic capacitor in the circuit. It just runs on the coils alone for a few seconds. I will also show this effect in my next videos.  Here is the circuit that I use when running with no capacitor.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Bizzy on February 22, 2011, 05:23:43 PM
@lanenal

That looks great!  I am on the road with work right now but I will give it a try when I get back in town.

@All

I am almost ready to post the DIY videos on how to build a joule ringer including the transformer.

I have also discovered that the Joule Ringer will run a lit CFL for a couple seconds after the power is disconnected, even with no electrolytic capacitor in the circuit. It just runs on the coils alone for a few seconds. I will also show this effect in my next videos.  Here is the circuit that I use when running with no capacitor.
Hi lasersaber
that is great news. I have been so busy with the air batteries I haven't had time to explore your joule ringer that much, so I am looking forward to your DIY video!!!
Thanks
Bizzy
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on February 23, 2011, 01:08:41 AM
Great news lasersaber !

Maybe your bifilar coil then acts as a cap,
as in your bigger designs it probably has about 100 nF capacitance between
the 2 wires...

Looking forward to see the videos.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 23, 2011, 01:46:07 AM
@lanenal

That looks great!  I am on the road with work right now but I will give it a try when I get back in town.

@All

I am almost ready to post the DIY videos on how to build a joule ringer including the transformer.

I have also discovered that the Joule Ringer will run a lit CFL for a couple seconds after the power is disconnected, even with no electrolytic capacitor in the circuit. It just runs on the coils alone for a few seconds. I will also show this effect in my next videos.  Here is the circuit that I use when running with no capacitor.

@lasersaber: I am so thrilled that you will give the modified circuit a try! Please let me know your result. Look forward to your new video, expecting myself to be shocked again.

@all: Here is a kickback joule ringer circuit. This time I have added a diode across the C and E pins of the transistor, and a 70pF capacitor in parallel with the driving coil. The main purpose of these two new elements is to help kickback the energy stored in the driving coil in the collapsing phase. When the transistor is turned off, the driving coil will oscillate with the 40pF capacitor, but only for half a cycle, thus when the current in the driving coil is reversed, the diode across CE start to conduct and the energy in the driving coil is kicked back to the 10,000uF capacitor.

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 24, 2011, 01:47:40 AM
Based on the understanding I have, I would like to propose a modified Joule Ringer circuit as in the attached. A diode is used to encourage recharging and forbid discharging. The value 1N4007 is tentative (ideally, it should have high breaking voltage and fast response). The 4M pot is for standard Joule Thief trigger coil configuration, which will regulate the frequency.

Clearly, the huge spike picked up by the power coil is directly dumped onto the cap. This is something to be careful about.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: 4Tesla on February 24, 2011, 02:26:55 AM
This reminds me of the Micro TPU!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3599.30

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on February 24, 2011, 03:20:17 AM
To the best of my understanding, I have used dot notation to illustrate the transformer, please see attached. And here I would briefly explain how I understand the working of the Joule Ringer. Note that I am no expert, so please excuse my rather brute way of expressing my thoughts below.

Static analysis of the Joule Ringer circuit:

1. The points of interest in the circuit: the pins 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 of the transformer; the + and - pin of the electrolytic capacitor; the E, B, C of the transistor.

2. The circuit consists of three loops (loops will be shown by visiting the points of interest as given above). Loop (1): +, 5, 6, C, E, - (this is the Joule Thief type driving loop). Loop (2): +, 4, 2, B, E, - (this is the Joule Thief type trigger loop, which clearly includes the bifiler coil, as does the next loop). Loop (3): +, 4, 3, - (this is the Big Joule Thief type power loop, which also includes the modified CFL).

Once identified these three loops in the circuit, let's call them driving, trigger, and power loops, and each loop contains exactly one part of the coil in the transformer, and let's call those coils the driving, trigger, and power coils.

Dynamic analysis of the Joule Ringer circuit:

The circuit works cyclically. Let's say the cycle starts at the moment when the driving coil 5,6 has no current.

The driving and trigger loops work almost the same way as the Joule Thief circuit, which I will pass for now (however, scope shots suggests that the transistor could switch on twice in one cycle will be explained later, let's ignore such subtlety for the time being, which won't really hurt much of the understanding of the first order effects).
Basically, the current in the driving coil climbs up flowing from pin 5 to 6, then at a certain point, the transistor turns off, and the current drops to zero all in a sudden, causing great spike of voltages in the other coils. As the current in the driving coil drops down to zero, the cycle starts again.

The power loop. When the current in the driving coil is climbing up, some induced induced voltage over the power coil (from pin 4 to 3), but the current should be tiny by reason of the diodes and the induced voltage being relatively small compared to what will happen next. Next, when the current in the driving coil collapses all in a sudden, huge spike of voltage is induced in the power coil (arching could be observed at this moment), the direction is from pin 2 to 4, causing a brief recharging of the electrolytic capacitor through the bifiler and diodes.

At the recharging moment, by reason of the capacitance of bifiler, big voltage is developed across it, and if the voltage is high enough (higher than the induced voltage in the trigger coil at that moment), the transistor could be turned on again briefly. That is why the scope shots suggests that the transistor could switch on twice in one cycle.

Comments on the bifiler and diodes

From the analysis above, the ideal function of the bifiler+diodes in the power loop is to encourage recharging of the electrolytic capacitor in the collapsing stage and discourage the current flow from the electrolytic capacitor in the building stage (when the current of the driving coil climbs up).  Replacing the diodes by a pot may still work because of the induced voltages on the power coil during the two stages are dramatically different in magnitude.

Finally, this analysis is limited in traditional wisdom, I can not exclude the possibility that some abnormal thing happened during the recharging stage, maybe in the bifiler coil or somewhere else.

Hope this somehow helps replicating.

lanenal

lanenal

Thanks for taking the time  to post your analysis

I found it very helpful


gary
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 24, 2011, 07:37:18 AM
This reminds me of the Micro TPU!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3599.30

Thanks for digging that out and bringing the similarity up. BTW, is that source cap also electrolytic?

Modify: went to the thread and found out that it is indeed an electrolytic cap. The scope shots there seems to indicate that the Micro TPU works at a very low frequency (below 1Hz?).

So, maybe the joule ringer can also be implemented using a toroid core.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 24, 2011, 10:04:51 AM
Thanks for digging that out and bringing the similarity up. BTW, is that source cap also electrolytic?

Modify: went to the thread and found out that it is indeed an electrolytic cap. The scope shots there seems to indicate that the Micro TPU works at a very low frequency (below 1Hz?).

So, maybe the joule ringer can also be implemented using a toroid core.

It might be of interest to replicators to make it as simple as possible, I would like to post a 2-coil schematic. Basically, the trigger coil and the power coil are replaced by one coil that actually performs both functionality.

lanenal

Edit: some comments are in order.

1. The number of turns are not specified, you may try 100:100 bifiler on a toroid or something, as a starting point, then increase the turns on the right side (with the CFL).

2. If the voltage is not high enough to lit the CFL, you can try put a magnet near the core (this idea comes from slayer who discovered huge voltage increase when a magnet is nearby a big joule thief.

3. The idea implemented in the Kickback Joule Ringer (a few posts before) to kickback the energy stored in the driving coil can be incorporated into this one almost as is.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: 4Tesla on February 25, 2011, 03:15:45 AM
Here is another similar topic:
Gadgetmall's Fuji Mod light CFL from 1 AA/AAA for - 12 hrs +
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6932.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.10
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6934.0

Which of the circuits in this thread has given the longest run time?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 25, 2011, 07:53:23 AM
Here is another similar topic:
Gadgetmall's Fuji Mod light CFL from 1 AA/AAA for - 12 hrs +
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6932.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.10
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6934.0

Which of the circuits in this thread has given the longest run time?

The objective here is to run the CFL from a small cap say 10mF
for a good duration, say half an hour. If I understood correctly,
with proper setup, an AA/AAA bat could be used to recharge
the cap many times, thus the total run time could be months.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 25, 2011, 07:54:21 AM
lanenal

Thanks for taking the time  to post your analysis

I found it very helpful


gary

gary,

thanks for the encouraging words.

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: 4Tesla on February 25, 2011, 09:24:34 AM
The objective here is to run the CFL from a small cap say 10mF
for a good duration, say half an hour. If I understood correctly,
with proper setup, an AA/AAA bat could be used to recharge
the cap many times, thus the total run time could be months.

I know, but thought the schematics might be useful.

Anyone try all these different circuits?  I was wondering which one has had the longest run time.

Thanks,
Tesla
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 25, 2011, 12:41:57 PM
The 2-Coil Joule Ringer schematic really looks like a Joule Thief.
If the magic is in the bifiler+pot combination, then one should
replace the diode by that combination.

Really look forward to the tutorial video of lasersaber,
I will follow that and start my replication.
Sorry Tesla, I haven't built that before, once I got started,
it won't seem to be hard to build that as well.

Meanwhile, could lasersaber please also post an "official" schematic in the video,
I bet that will be tremendously helpful for replicators and thus create a lot of
faithful followers (the one posted before with a real-object-like transformer
is helpful  but inadequate, unfortunately, because the transformer is a black
box and nobody knows exactly how it is wired inside, thus some crucial
information is lacking, and I think clear schematics are a precise tool of
communication for this kind of work).

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: 4Tesla on February 25, 2011, 09:51:42 PM
The 2-Coil Joule Ringer schematic really looks like a Joule Thief.
If the magic is in the bifiler+pot combination, then one should
replace the diode by that combination.

Really look forward to the tutorial video of lasersaber,
I will follow that and start my replication.
Sorry Tesla, I haven't built that before, once I got started,
it won't seem to be hard to build that as well.

Meanwhile, could lasersaber please also post an "official" schematic in the video,
I bet that will be tremendously helpful for replicators and thus create a lot of
faithful followers (the one posted before with a real-object-like transformer
is helpful  but inadequate, unfortunately, because the transformer is a black
box and nobody knows exactly how it is wired inside, thus some crucial
information is lacking, and I think clear schematics are a precise tool of
communication for this kind of work).

lanenal

Look forward to your results.  Have you tried all the circuits in this thread?  That is what I'm curious about.  I'm looking forward to lasersaber's how-to video also.

I have bought a fuji camera and a 4 watt cfl.. I'll be experimenting soon.

Tesla
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on February 28, 2011, 01:34:08 AM
Look forward to your results.  Have you tried all the circuits in this thread?  That is what I'm curious about.  I'm looking forward to lasersaber's how-to video also.

I have bought a fuji camera and a 4 watt cfl.. I'll be experimenting soon.

Tesla

Tesla, Look forward to yours too. It is good to experiment with a variety of set ups, then we will know what works, and what won't, and by comparing them, we might be able to figure out what is the most important factor to improve efficiency.

I built a pulsing circuit of my own design before, but failed in that I didn't achieve some desired result I was expecting. Now lasersaber's great results can be obtained with such an elegant and simple set up, I am sure I want to replicate it. It is definitely a nice gadget to show off to friends.

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on February 28, 2011, 08:31:16 AM
Impressive.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: 4Tesla on February 28, 2011, 09:22:06 AM
I found these ccfl kits which include two easy to hook up bulbs that would be great for this project.. I'm going to order one:

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=ccfl&search_type=all
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on March 01, 2011, 03:38:20 AM
I found these ccfl kits which include two easy to hook up bulbs that would be great for this project.. I'm going to order one:

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=ccfl&search_type=all

That's nice. I'm also buying things to get ready for the replication...

BTW: here people are doing COP calculations of Joule thief, and they got OU results, though they need to recheck and verify.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=717.msg11327#msg11327
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 01, 2011, 06:13:08 AM
I think Joule Thief , and now lasersaber's Joule Ringer, are very important circuits for study for solid-state OU due to their simplicity and anomalous nature.

LaserSaber and others:  You might want to try to bring a neo magnet in proximity to your bifilar coil on Joule Thief / Joule Ringer, with the attempt of partially (not fully) saturating magnetic permeability in the core.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/images/2Sgenhyst.jpg


http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2011, 06:28:48 AM
I think Joule Thief , and now lasersaber's Joule Ringer, are very important circuits for study for solid-state OU due to their simplicity and anomalous nature.

LaserSaber and others:  You might want to try to bring a neo magnet in proximity to your bifilar coil on Joule Thief / Joule Ringer, with the attempt of partially (not fully) saturating magnetic permeability in the core.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/images/2Sgenhyst.jpg (http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/images/2Sgenhyst.jpg)


http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm)

I have done this many times with my circuits and, it seems all it does is just raise the freq. which is a good thing because, on my Jeanna's light replication, that large toroid screamed until I stuck a few strong neos on the toroid which was high perm to begin with.  There very well may be other advantages to doing this but I have not heard of them or explored them as of yet.  I will look at the links that you posted.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 01, 2011, 07:34:07 AM
Naudin's experiments seem to indicate , that in a pulsed DC setup (200hz - 10khz or so) fed to a monofilar wound toroid... that with input to a partially saturated toroid, *only* in the presence of a magnet, can induce a rather powerful impulse during toroid core demagnetization, strong enough to light lamps via nearby collector coils.

There have been multiple succesful replications of Naudin's work.  No one has claimed OU, although Naudin's phenomenon is certainly strange. OU may be possible if the square-wave discharge impulses are recaptured somehow, because the secondary is apparently independent, because it is fully EM decoupled.  Or so Naudin claims.

That said, from what I can tell, Naudin is using cores with permeabilities of
u=6000
to
u=90000

The other dissimilarity with Joule Thief are the input and output waveforms, but the other parts were to just too close for me not to bring up the subject.

Glad to hear you've tried saturating the core with magnets...  I think the trick may be high-permeability cores with partial magnetic saturation under sharp-gradient pulsed-DC conditions, but it will be a few weeks until I get all my parts in.

Just figured I'd drop the idea since ya'll are already bringing in the Tesla-style spark gaps, haha.

Good luck!
-Feynman

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2011, 07:42:08 AM
The large 3 3/8" toroids used in the Jeanna circuit were 10,000 on the perm ratings, for whatever that is worth.  But, they were not bifilar but had 3 separate coils wound on them.

Hey, to me, all of this is related in some way or another.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 02, 2011, 12:57:54 AM
I posted regarding the relationships between these various experimental OU devices at OUResearch:

----
Joule Ringer:

LaserSaber, from overunity.com, is to my knowledge the first to run a Joule Thief off purely a capacitor without a battery.  He uses the resonance to light CFLs for 5mins at a time and up.  From my understanding, he is also using some extra coils /transformer pulled out of a disposable camera flashbulp power supply.   This modified circuit (and it's derivatives) are known as 'Joule Ringers'.

... continued on ...

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=302.msg11510#msg11510
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 02, 2011, 04:01:22 AM
I posted regarding the relationships between these various experimental OU devices at OUResearch:

----
Joule Ringer:

LaserSaber, from overunity.com, is to my knowledge the first to run a Joule Thief off purely a capacitor without a battery.  He uses the resonance to light CFLs for 5mins at a time and up.  From my understanding, he is also using some extra coils /transformer pulled out of a disposable camera flashbulp power supply.   This modified circuit (and it's derivatives) are known as 'Joule Ringers'.

... continued on ...

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=302.msg11510#msg11510 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=302.msg11510#msg11510)


Well, I ran a JT circuit from a supercap back in 2009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNGUJdQACU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNGUJdQACU)

Over 2 years ago for whatever that is worth. This was posted at that time on the JT topic.  Don't believe everything you read over at OUR.  Some of those guys over there do not understand the JT circuit at all.

Having said that, Laser has done some incredible work and he has my total respect and admiration.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 02, 2011, 09:32:33 AM
Okay I will modify the article when I post to my blog to give you credit .  I've been away from this scene for a couple of years , so I'm not up on the details. 

I just wrote some wave heterodyning modeling software in PureData though, it's pretty amazing.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 04, 2011, 06:28:10 AM
Preliminary measurements may indicate Joule Thief has COP>1.  (COP = 1.08 to 1.4 somewhere).   Results pending community assessment and further confirmation.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=717.msg11577#msg11577
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on March 07, 2011, 02:09:31 PM
It might be of interest to replicators to make it as simple as possible, I would like to post a 2-coil schematic. Basically, the trigger coil and the power coil are replaced by one coil that actually performs both functionality.

lanenal

Edit: some comments are in order.

1. The number of turns are not specified, you may try 100:100 bifiler on a toroid or something, as a starting point, then increase the turns on the right side (with the CFL).

2. If the voltage is not high enough to lit the CFL, you can try put a magnet near the core (this idea comes from slayer who discovered huge voltage increase when a magnet is nearby a big joule thief.

3. The idea implemented in the Kickback Joule Ringer (a few posts before) to kickback the energy stored in the driving coil can be incorporated into this one almost as is.

While we are waiting lasersaber, I am stretching my legs and get myself ready by playing with the joule thief kind of thing, but reversed somehow (the post above has its joule ringer correspondence with circuit attached). And it worked just as I have expected! Tomorrow I will see how long a cap will run that thingy. See below for a comparison of the traditional JT and this reversed JT.

Note that when the LED is on, the battery is getting recharged -- that's the major difference.

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 07, 2011, 08:19:05 PM
Okay, so further tests indicate the COP>1 operation possibly accomplished by PhysicsProf, if the evidence holds and the circuit is replicable, probably does not apply to all Joule Thieves.

The vast majority of Joule Thieves, at least with conventional JT circuits, are probably in the range of 60%-90% efficiency.  The way to determine this is to integrate the area under the Power_in vs the Power_out curve for a unit of time (t), where COP=Power_out / Power_in, and then average this value over long periods of time.

COP Measurement in JT:
Lanenal has determined an excellent method of measurement of JT circuits for Power_in vs Power_Out by dividing the circuit into sections.   Lanenal's measurement methods can be found here:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=717.msg11528#msg11528 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=717.msg11528#msg11528)

Most of PhysicsProfs JT circuits were COP<1.   He has found one which is apparently overunity.

PhysicsProf's COP=1.13 Performance may be due to PHASE issues in Joule Thief
PhysicsProf, the individual who managed COP=1.13 performance in a JT, could originally not replicate his overunity COP>1 setup.  Most Joule Theives he tested produced COP<1, with COP around 0.6-0.9.

PhysicsProf's abnormal Joule Thief which appeared to produce COP>1 had different phase relationship to itself!  The circuit's phase was strange.  The abnormal scope shots are attached.

Upon discussion, he has managed to replicate the original waveform with a COP around 1.0 by replacing the JT LED with a 1K variable resistor.  Tuning this variable resistor reproduces the abnormal phase issues, but not the exact COP>1 waveform, on the scope. 

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=717.msg11707#msg11707 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=717.msg11707#msg11707)

So these JT phase issues are promising, but need replication.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: ramset on March 07, 2011, 10:25:49 PM
Feynman
You have to resize the images,Or we have to walk back and forth to read this.

Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 08, 2011, 03:09:49 AM
Okay, got it
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Munetaka on March 08, 2011, 09:26:27 PM
Laser Saber or anyone:

What function does the bifilar coil in the joule thief ringing circuit? could you explain to me please?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 09, 2011, 04:07:46 AM
That's a good question; I don't know.  Build one and try it out!

I think PhysicsProf's version of JouleRinger had a lower COP (0.60 or 0.70 or so), but I think it really depends on your setup.  There may be a COP>1 possibility.
Title: Re: hand wound coil of Lasersaber's Joule Ringer
Post by: aaron5120 on March 09, 2011, 06:49:16 AM
my latest work has been in winding my own large E core transformer from scratch.  It's huge, took forever to wind and was worth every once of effort.  If anybody thought my last Joule Ringer videos were cool just wait until see the next update.
Lasersaber
Hi Lasersaber,
I had wound two transformers with the E core recommended by Lasersaber, bought from surplussales.com but neither of them worked.
The circuit just does not want to oscillate. Lasersaber if you are hanging around here please give us a hand!
How much turns and at what gauges should the primary, trigger and secondary coils be wounded? Should they be winded clockwise or counterclockwise?
I use 2N5551 and 2SC5525 to form a Darlington pair, tried also TIP3055, none of them worked with the E core transformer. Please just tell us the wire info, we can live without your DIY video at the moment!
Thanks!
aaron5120
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on March 10, 2011, 12:26:24 AM
...
And it worked just as I have expected! Tomorrow I will see how long a cap will run that thingy. See below for a comparison of the traditional JT and this reversed JT.

Note that when the LED is on, the battery is getting recharged -- that's the major difference.

Well, I used a cap (1000uF, 16V) instead of a bat, and it does not seem to work -- the LED won't lit for any discernible moment.  This result is disappointing, which makes lasersaber's discovery even more interesting...looking forward to replicating his ringer.

I suspect that there is very high frequency oscillation between the bifiler (probably functioning as a tiny capacitor) and the high voltage coil.

@lasersaber: Could you use a multimeter to measure the capacitance of your bifiler (just disconnect the 4M pot and measure the two ends where you disconnected the pot)? That should be very helpful. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: poynt99 on March 10, 2011, 04:25:07 AM
Don't believe everything you read over at OUR.  Some of those guys over there do not understand the JT circuit at all.

Bill

That may be true Bill, and I may be one of them. Does anyone here understand the JT circuit and how it works?

At OUR, I've blown away the misconception that a JT functions by way of a saturated core, and I've spent a number of hours working on the problem of "how it actually works", but I've not yet come to a complete answer.

I'd be grateful if someone here could enlighten me.

Thanks,
.99
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on March 10, 2011, 04:47:16 AM
That may be true Bill, and I may be one of them. Does anyone here understand the JT circuit and how it works?

At OUR, I've blown away the misconception that a JT functions by way of a saturated core, and I've spent a number of hours working on the problem of "how it actually works", but I've not yet come to a complete answer.

I'd be grateful if someone here could enlighten me.

Thanks,
.99

poynt99

This was posted quite a while ago
It is in my opinion the best description  of how a JT works that I have seen.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 10, 2011, 06:49:50 AM
That's a good description; best I've seen so far.   But it does not explain what happens when the circuit gets out of phase.

I snagged my trifilar joule thief  and my analog scope today... I'll be replacing the LED with a 1k pot to see how it effects the circuit's scope traces.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 10, 2011, 08:07:49 AM
That may be true Bill, and I may be one of them. Does anyone here understand the JT circuit and how it works?

At OUR, I've blown away the misconception that a JT functions by way of a saturated core, and I've spent a number of hours working on the problem of "how it actually works", but I've not yet come to a complete answer.

I'd be grateful if someone here could enlighten me.

Thanks,
.99

Well, that is an honest response and I will give you another.  I, for one, do not totally understand how this circuit works, and what it can really do.  My research and experiments thus far are documented, and others have replicated some of them.  I think Larry is a bit off on his measurements and hopes but, if he shows OU then I will be the first to congratulate him.

The main thing about the JT circuit that has bothered me from the start is that a lot of EE's kept claiming that this is well known and there is nothing new here.  OK, fine.  Then why can I rebuild a simple LED flashlight that took 3 AA's and run it on a "dead" AA that make the light brighter and last much longer than with the 3 AA's?

I have never, ever claimed OU with this circuit.  The only thing I am on record for is saying that I believe the JT circuit might be part of an actual OU circuit.  That is all.

Thank you for your intelligent response.  I appreciate it.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: teslaalset on March 10, 2011, 10:16:20 AM
That may be true Bill, and I may be one of them. Does anyone here understand the JT circuit and how it works?

At OUR, I've blown away the misconception that a JT functions by way of a saturated core, and I've spent a number of hours working on the problem of "how it actually works", but I've not yet come to a complete answer.

I'd be grateful if someone here could enlighten me.

Thanks,
.99

Poynt,
The Joule Thief is nothing more than what is called a 'blocking oscillator'.
There is a massive amount of information on variations of the concept and the theory how these oscillators work.

Attached is reference book info that I use to understand the basics with very good detailed explanation.
This book is available on usenet, if you are familiar with downloading from usenet.
You also might try this link : http://www.mediafire.com/?6fp0pjli0dbyi3p and download it from there.
Blocking oscillators are explained from page 3-58 to 3-99.

Note: [in my country, the Netherlands,  downloading (e)books is legally allowed, you might check your situation first before doing so]
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on March 10, 2011, 10:49:58 AM
That may be true Bill, and I may be one of them. Does anyone here understand the JT circuit and how it works?

At OUR, I've blown away the misconception that a JT functions by way of a saturated core, and I've spent a number of hours working on the problem of "how it actually works", but I've not yet come to a complete answer.

I'd be grateful if someone here could enlighten me.

Thanks,
.99

I will give you my 2 cents , both coil have the same potential , when one coil is closed the bemf is induced in the second coil since they are out of phase ...

Mark

Btw the joule ringer is also working in that manner (the bifilar coil no one actually see the need for ) A clues is that with the same current direction the copper and the iron coil have opposite poles so the emf is in the same direction as the bemf of the opposite wire if the pair .

 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: poynt99 on March 10, 2011, 02:31:30 PM
poynt99

This was posted quite a while ago
It is in my opinion the best description  of how a JT works that I have seen.

Yes, I think I saw that description quite some time ago here.

It is exactly the notion I started with when I began looking at the wave forms in detail in my simulation, and I believe this is most likely the true "turn off" mechanism involved. It is difficult to "see" all this happening as it all happens simultaneously, so one has to extrapolate what they know into what they see, and I think xee2 has done a good job of that.

The JT is one of only a few transistor circuits that operates in all four possible bias modes throughout it's cycle; forward-active, cutoff, saturation, and reverse-active. I was looking at the "saturation" mode as a possible turn-off mechanism, because appreciable current may flow in the collector, even though Vce may be quite small, smaller than Vcesat.

Anyway, I'll look at the simulation again when I have time and see if I can prove it all out, one way or the other.

Thanks,
.99
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: poynt99 on March 10, 2011, 02:41:02 PM
The main thing about the JT circuit that has bothered me from the start is that a lot of EE's kept claiming that this is well known and there is nothing new here.  OK, fine.  Then why can I rebuild a simple LED flashlight that took 3 AA's and run it on a "dead" AA that make the light brighter and last much longer than with the 3 AA's?

It's quite simple really. A "dead" battery may have little voltage available at its terminals, but it still contains energy and current can still be drawn from it by shorting it out. The JT shorts out the battery through the collector coil and draws current. When the transistor turns off, the inductive kickback manifests as a high voltage spike which is much higher in amplitude than is required to turn on the LED.

So in effect, the JT is a converter of sorts; it converts a current (which we can still extract from the dead battery) into a high voltage, which is able to forward bias a LED or string of LEDs.

Does that make sense?

Bill, have you ever installed a high power audio amplifier in your vehicle? It works on a similar principle, but the goal there is to increase the power amplification beyond what can be achieved using only the 12VDC available from the vehicle battery. A large part of the after-market power amplifier is the power supply; it converts (i.e. raises the voltage) 12VDC to perhaps +/- 35V or so, similar to what your home theatre amplifier might use.

.99
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Omnibus on March 10, 2011, 02:45:55 PM
@poynt99,

This seems somewhat connected to the topic at hand -- would you be interested in making a PSpice simulation of this schematic: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10174.msg268372#msg268372 ? Would be interesting to see if that's really the same violation as what I'm observing in the simple RC circuit (by analyzing the raw data transparently in Excel and not using the PSpice analysis tool).
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2011, 12:40:27 AM
It's quite simple really. A "dead" battery may have little voltage available at its terminals, but it still contains energy and current can still be drawn from it by shorting it out. The JT shorts out the battery through the collector coil and draws current. When the transistor turns off, the inductive kickback manifests as a high voltage spike which is much higher in amplitude than is required to turn on the LED.

So in effect, the JT is a converter of sorts; it converts a current (which we can still extract from the dead battery) into a high voltage, which is able to forward bias a LED or string of LEDs.

Does that make sense?

Bill, have you ever installed a high power audio amplifier in your vehicle? It works on a similar principle, but the goal there is to increase the power amplification beyond what can be achieved using only the 12VDC available from the vehicle battery. A large part of the after-market power amplifier is the power supply; it converts (i.e. raises the voltage) 12VDC to perhaps +/- 35V or so, similar to what your home theatre amplifier might use.

.99

Yes, I agree with your explanation but, I was meaning something else.  What I was trying to say was, if these have been around forever, and are totally understood, why can't we buy commercially produced devices that utilize this circuit?  Like my flashlight example.  More light, brighter and longer lasting on a single AA instead of 3.

I have to admit that the tiny circuits inside of some of the solar led garden lights I have been playing with lately appear to be pretty efficient in acting both as a controller for the charging of the bat. and stepping up the voltage from 1.2 to 3.2 volts.

The most efficient JT circuits I have built do not use batteries at all.  I use supercaps which charge up right away and last a longer time, possibly for the same reason as you mentioned above for the batteries.  I first began doing this about 3 years ago but now, the supercaps are both cheaper, and larger in capacity.

Thanks,

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: MrMag on March 11, 2011, 12:54:03 AM
Yes, I agree with your explanation but, I was meaning something else.  What I was trying to say was, if these have been around forever, and are totally understood, why can't we buy commercially produced devices that utilize this circuit?  Like my flashlight example.  More light, brighter and longer lasting on a single AA instead of 3.

Most of the flashlights are built by the battery companies :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on March 11, 2011, 03:11:57 AM
Hi folks, I can vouch for mrmag on that one, the frys store near me use to have an ok selection of rechargeable batteries, now they are almost non-existent.
Can we seriously believe with all these high drain electronic devices, like cameras, that people don't want rechargeable batteries, i doubt it.
There is obviously conspiracies to prevent any real progress right down to gumballs, sheesh. ::)
peace love light
Tyson
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Artic_Knight on March 11, 2011, 03:40:03 AM
bill thats a good question why haven't more efficient circuits been used in lights? i would have to agree that one option is a commercial influence such as the battery companies or also perhaps the designers of the lights are not aware of "fad" circuits. i know when i have spoken to ee's in the past they stick their nose up at this kind of research. they say that the most efficient circuits are currently in use or have patents. that is of course another option. perhaps theres a patent we missed preventing the use of it.

i have seen available on the market a more efficient circuit for lighting the 40 watt floro tubes and why isnt that in use? well its very pricey. but guess what they use? a higher frequency higher voltage circuit.

everyone is just out to make a buck they dont care about efficiency unless it translates into dollars.

i for one can see that efficiency will lead to dollars as it will open the doors for many new and invaluable products.

sorry i have been away for so long. ive had quite a bit of research into resonance and tesla and now have a rug rat of 10 months to chase :) shes an energetic one.

stephen
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Artic_Knight on March 11, 2011, 03:43:17 AM
by the way i see you and jenna have been busy. laser sabers batteries and some pretty good joule thief's to boot. some very interesting work. and a thumbs up to laser saber. he seems to be doing quite well.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on March 11, 2011, 04:40:22 AM

@All

I am almost ready to post the DIY videos on how to build a joule ringer including the transformer.

I have also discovered that the Joule Ringer will run a lit CFL for a couple seconds after the power is disconnected, even with no electrolytic capacitor in the circuit. It just runs on the coils alone for a few seconds. I will also show this effect in my next videos.  Here is the circuit that I use when running with no capacitor.

@lasersaber:

That is amazing...without a capacitor! I suspect that if you could perfect it, it might just run forever! That phenomenon is certainly very thought provoking, and partly explains why Joule Ringer is running for so long.  Really look forward to the video. Thanks!

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on March 11, 2011, 04:42:54 AM
I will give you my 2 cents , both coil have the same potential , when one coil is closed the bemf is induced in the second coil since they are out of phase ...

Mark

Btw the joule ringer is also working in that manner (the bifilar coil no one actually see the need for ) A clues is that with the same current direction the copper and the iron coil have opposite poles so the emf is in the same direction as the bemf of the opposite wire if the pair .

@Mark: what you said about the iron coil is just incredible, because it simply means that modern electro-magnetic theory is wrong at its very foundation! Are you only kidding us or have you verified it yourself?

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2011, 07:07:16 AM
Stephen:

Good to see you again man.  Congrats on the little one, a full time job to be sure, ha ha.  Thanks for your kind words.  There has been a lot of cool stuff being worked on and I am way behind the curve myself due to lack of money and working all of the hours that I can.

I look forward to seeing your participation and projects.  Lasersaber's work is certainly very interesting and has opened many more doors in my opinion.  He has certainly raised the bar for the rest of us.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Goat on March 11, 2011, 07:15:17 AM
Hi All

e2matrix posted a circuit that seems related in that it can drive a load through capacitors and coils and last a long time on one charge.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10480.msg277323#msg277323

It seems to be a spice simulation theory at first glance but it might be worth looking into if anyone is interested.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2011, 10:03:15 AM
@Mark: what you said about the iron coil is just incredible, because it simply means that modern electro-magnetic theory is wrong at its very foundation! Are you only kidding us or have you verified it yourself?

lanenal

Its is based on my observation of a video made by John Bedini , he made 2 identical coil one of iron and one of copper . For the iron coil to work in the same way the copper coil did he had to reverse the battery .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8vnHVV25tU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

It seems trivial at first but explains why Laser saber and others made report of no galvanic NS coil working .

Mark 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on March 11, 2011, 12:38:00 PM
Its is based on my observation of a video made by John Bedini , he made 2 identical coil one of iron and one of copper . For the iron coil to work in the same way the copper coil did he had to reverse the battery .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8vnHVV25tU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

It seems trivial at first but explains why Laser saber and others made report of no galvanic NS coil working .

Mark

Sorry, what do you mean by "NS coil"? I might just wind an iron coil and give it a test myself. I don't think this can be true, but who knows. Or it might just be a bad joke from John.

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2011, 01:04:32 PM
Sorry, what do you mean by "NS coil"? I might just wind an iron coil and give it a test myself. I don't think this can be true, but who knows. Or it might just be a bad joke from John.

lanenal

I asked John to make sure there was no mistake , NS for Nathan Stublefield Coil.

You need the good iron .

Mark
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: poynt99 on March 11, 2011, 03:59:13 PM
@poynt99,

This seems somewhat connected to the topic at hand -- would you be interested in making a PSpice simulation of this schematic: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10174.msg268372#msg268372 ? Would be interesting to see if that's really the same violation as what I'm observing in the simple RC circuit (by analyzing the raw data transparently in Excel and not using the PSpice analysis tool).

Omnibus,

I've looked at and simulated Sandy's circuits quite some time ago, and there is no OU to report in the simulations.

.99
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 04:35:47 PM
I mean c'mon guys, just because SPICE doesn't simulate something doesn't mean it's not there. I have no idea about NS coil in particular, but I'm just saying

Can SPICE simulate the behavior of scalar waves?   Sure it's good for doing conventional EM behavior, but it's missing large parts of electrodynamics.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on March 12, 2011, 05:35:45 AM
I asked John to make sure there was no mistake , NS for Nathan Stublefield Coil.

You need the good iron .

Mark

Thanks. If I replicate this, what kind of iron would be good for it?

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on March 12, 2011, 05:40:24 AM
Thanks. If I replicate this, what kind of iron would be good for it?

lanenal

It needs to be soft iron , not steel .

I am working on a simpler design , i will post soon .

Mark
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nul-points on March 13, 2011, 10:02:46 AM

[[Quote from: Omnibus
     @poynt99,
    ...would you be interested in making a PSpice simulation of this schematic:     
    http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10174.msg268372#msg268372 ? (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10174.msg268372#msg268372 ?)]]

Omnibus,

I've looked at and simulated Sandy's circuits quite some time ago, and there is no OU to report in the simulations.

.99


LOL  you can always rely on someone in the overunity community to bring a smile to your face


so, you're saying that because you simulated one circuit of somebody's, back in 2008, you know that you don't need to simulate a completely different circuit of theirs in 2011 to decide that it's not OU?

hey, with a skill like that, who needs simulators?!?


first schematic below is the circuit for which you posted some Sim results (back in 2008, one of the circuits from my Switched Cap thread)

next schematic below is the circuit (posted a few months back, in my thread about a self-sustaining DIY cell) which Omni just asked if you could simulate


almost as funny is the fact that this recent circuit isn't claimed to be OU anyway

as i poynt out in the first line of the link which Omni gave you:
  "as far as i know, this particular circuit used here as a load is not critical to the behaviour of the system"

folks, i think we have to question just how carefully Mr Poynt "looks at" people's circuits  (and posts)   ;)

can we have more entertainment like this please, gentlemen?
 
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on March 14, 2011, 04:36:26 AM
I asked John to make sure there was no mistake , NS for Nathan Stublefield Coil.

You need the good iron .

Mark

So John simply would a traditional coil but with soft iron wire, correct? Or do you mean there is a complicated design? If it is complicated, there maybe something in it that can be explained by the traditional theory. Anyway, a design is highly welcome.

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Mk1 on March 14, 2011, 07:19:12 AM
So John simply would a traditional coil but with soft iron wire, correct? Or do you mean there is a complicated design? If it is complicated, there maybe something in it that can be explained by the traditional theory. Anyway, a design is highly welcome.

lanenal

Yes its only a iron coil , but to have the effect of the bifillar coil on the joule ringer you need a iron copper pair. Traditional thinking is not a problem here once you know that both coil will have opposed field.

Mark
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on March 31, 2011, 02:03:27 AM
How to build the Joule Ringer transformer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVWFlpRmLkE
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on March 31, 2011, 05:55:01 AM
Thanks for the update and directions lasersaber.  Looks like you've really got it dialed in.  Are you still using the Fuji transistor?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on March 31, 2011, 01:44:54 PM
@lasersaber: thank you for the nice video!

Because I want to wind such a transformer, I made a little drawing. It will serve as a note when winding the transformer.

Please have a look at it, is it right? The free end of the twisted length is embedded in the coil (not connected to any pin)?

What transistor do you use? What is the Voltage of the starting charge of the electrolytic capacitor?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: e2matrix on March 31, 2011, 06:33:27 PM
Conrad,  I think he said the twisted wire was a trigger wire.  Not sure if that helps but I thought both of the twisted wires were hooked together (but I could easily be wrong and haven't looked again at the vid). 
   Like you I'm also hoping he chimes in here about the transistor as it would be nice to know a replacement for the one in the Fuji as that one bit the dust early and while I found others worked most did not work as well. 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on March 31, 2011, 07:24:23 PM
@conradelektro

That drawing looks right on to me.  You did a nice job drawing that out.  As you noticed there is a free end on the twisted wire buried in the coil.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 08, 2011, 02:56:35 PM
@lasersaber: thank you for the nice video! It is nice because everybody is saying so...But unfortunately I can't view it because I am in China... youtube is blocked and it is probably for good. But with the postings and discussions here I hope I can get hold of it -- I'm like a blind man probing around here...sorry if I am asking stupid questions.

@conrad: Thanks for the drawing, I still have a question: the word "counter wound" is not quite informative unless you also know the coil is wound from which end to which end. For example, the coil on pin 5 and 6, do you wind from 5 to 6 or the other way around? Or is there a convention that you always start from a lower numbered pin and end with a higher numbered pin? Thanks!

lanenal




Because I want to wind such a transformer, I made a little drawing. It will serve as a note when winding the transformer.

Please have a look at it, is it right? The free end of the twisted length is embedded in the coil (not connected to any pin)?

What transistor do you use? What is the Voltage of the starting charge of the electrolytic capacitor?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Taylor1992 on April 08, 2011, 03:06:11 PM
@lanenal I could try to send you the video file through an email message if you would like. What format would you like the file to be in?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 08, 2011, 03:23:23 PM
@lanenal I could try to send you the video file through an email message if you would like. What format would you like the file to be in?

@Taylor: thank you! I think any common video format would be fine, there is a open source video player called vlc (www.videolan.org/vlc/), very versatile. It plays flash, mpg4, wmv, etc. I'll PM you my email address. You saved my day! Thank you very much!

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on April 08, 2011, 07:57:42 PM
@laneal: the pin numbers do not matter, they are just numbers to be able to talk about it.

You start winding the 21 layers in a direction that pleases you. And with "counter wound" I mean the other (opposite) direction.

So, the 21 layers and the twisted section are wound in one direction with a thin enameled wire. And the 6 feet starting at pin 4 (just a number, does not mean anything) are wound in the opposite direction with the same type of wire.

The winding with the red wire is done with a plastic insulated wire (just one layer) and is also wound in the opposite direction as the 21 layers.

Sounds complicated, but it is rather simple. Seeing the video helps.

Feel free to ask more questions.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 10, 2011, 08:57:35 AM
@conrad:

Thank you, that helps. And thanks to Taylor, now I saw the video  :). But I am still a little unsure about how to connect things together. You see, when you wind the coil, you first fix one end of the wire (let's call it the starting end) to the bobin, then after winding the whole coil, you fix the other end (let's call it the ending end) to the bobin. So what I am not clear about is this: in the diagram you draw for us, which pin # is for the starting end of the coil, and which pin # is for the ending end? If you could label that out on the diagram, I believe it would be great to go with the video and help people replicate this. That's also why people use dot notation to have the coil polarity labeled out on transformers (if current flows from the dotted end to the other end, which is not dotted, of a coil, the induced magnetic field would be in the same direction as when the current flows in another coil on the transformer from the dotted end to the other).

Maybe I missed something in the video, sorry if this is apparent from the video. Have to go now. Good luck with your replication!

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: ltseung888 on April 10, 2011, 03:15:58 PM
Quote
Quick Summary of the three Divine Revelations

Revelation 1 – Bringing-in kinetic energy of air molecules.  This is the simplest of all the experiments and such experiments have been done thousands of times already.  Strike one tuning fork.  One or more identical tuning forks nearby will go into sympathetic vibrations.  The resulting sound is louder and last longer.  The extra sound energy comes from the kinetic energy of air molecules.  Resonance condition is required.  At present, this Revelation is used for theoretical understanding.  No product based on this Revelation is planned.

Revelation 2 – Bringing-in gravitational or magnetic energy.  A horizontally pulse-pushed pendulum can bring-in gravitation energy.  The COP for small angles is approximately 1.5.  So long as there is tension in the string, gravitational energy can be brought-in.  If we replace the pendulum bob with a magnet and place other magnets around, we can bring-in magnetic energy.  Magnetic energy is better because it can be greater, have different directions and can be turned on or off.  The oscillation can be replaced by pulsed rotation (resonance pulsing).  The secret is in the exact turning on and off of the pulsing that depends on the load.  Precision engineering and computer programming is needed for best results.  Examples include Tong, Newman, Bedini, Adams, Wang, Liang, 225 HP wheels, etc.

Revelation 3 – Bringing-in Electron Motion Energy.  We can use LCR circuits to produce resonance or oscillation circuits.  A LCR circuit can be thought of as a tuning fork.  We can have multiple LCR circuits in resonance and electron motion energy can be brought-in.  The use of two oscilloscopes to display Input and Output waveforms and Power simultaneously is best.  Examples include FLEET, Joule Ringer, Steven Mark Device, Stan Meyer HHO generator, Rosemary Circuit etc.  This line of products is expected to mushroom quickly as it has no moving parts and the size can be much smaller.

With the three Divine Revelations, the mystery of Bring-in Energy devices is clarified.  The water has been turned into wine.  We just need more servers to interpret and produce products for the Masses.  Amen.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7434-lee-tseung-lead-out-bring-energy-theory-4.html

The theroy is complete.  Enjoy your experiments. ;)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 13, 2011, 06:32:22 AM
@Conrad:
@lasersaber:

After carefully reviewing the video sent to me by Taylor several times, I have been able to pinpoint the pins 2,3, and 4, but not 5 and 6 (which I provided a guess). Please see attached and comments are welcome!

Now I am glad that the polarity of the coils as revealed in the video should agree with the dot notation I have provided a while back (see post http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10179.msg275610#msg275610).

cheers,

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 13, 2011, 07:03:06 AM
Hi,

I have two entry level questions:

1. How do you generally make a bifiler? do you first twist the two wires before you start winding? 

2. How do you prepare the CFL? Do you rip off the circuits inside the CFL first?

Thanks!

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 13, 2011, 07:20:20 AM
Thanks for the update and directions lasersaber.  Looks like you've really got it dialed in.  Are you still using the Fuji transistor?

The transistor seems to be H1061, see page 17 of this thread, where lasersaber gave an updated diagram, talking about running JR for a few seconds WITHOUT the capacitor.

modify: see attached.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on April 13, 2011, 09:19:36 AM
Hi,

I have two entry level questions:

1. How do you generally make a bifiler? do you first twist the two wires before you start winding? 

2. How do you prepare the CFL? Do you rip off the circuits inside the CFL first?

Thanks!

lanenal

Answer to question 1: Do not twist the wires when winding a bifilar coil, just wind them like they are one wire (in parallel, next to each other).

Answer to question 2: I always remove the electronics hidden in the base of a CFL when I use the CFL for Joule Thief or Joule Ringer type experiments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Elektronstarterp.jpg

Be careful when you open the base of the lamp. Best insert the blade of a knife in the circular slit (barely visible) and twist to make the slit wider till it springs open; one can easily break the glass tube, take care and take time to do it.

Carefully unwind the rather stiff wires coming from the glass-tube from the little poles on the little circuit board. In some models, the wires coming from the glass-tube are fixed to the circuit board by clips, just cut the wires and leave them as long as possible. The wires coming from the glass tube break easily when bent often.

From each end of the tube (spiral glass tube or U-shaped glass tube) two wires stick out. I twist them together or use just one from each end. I have seen CFLs with two independent glass-tubes.

I always leave the glass-tube on the disk-shaped plastic support to which it is glued by some cement.

It is against all safety regulations to open up the base of a CFL, you do it at your own risk. People with two left hands should not do it.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 13, 2011, 12:09:10 PM
Answer to question 1: Do not twist the wires when winding a bifilar coil, just wind them like they are one wire (in parallel, next to each other).

Answer to question 2: I always remove the electronics hidden in the base of a CFL when I use the CFL for Joule Thief or Joule Ringer type experiments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Elektronstarterp.jpg

Be careful when you open the base of the lamp. Best insert the blade of a knife in the circular slit (barely visible) and twist to make the slit wider till it springs open; one can easily break the glass tube, take care and take time to do it.

Carefully unwind the rather stiff wires coming from the glass-tube from the little poles on the little circuit board. In some models, the wires coming from the glass-tube are fixed to the circuit board by clips, just cut the wires and leave them as long as possible. The wires coming from the glass tube break easily when bent often.

From each end of the tube (spiral glass tube or U-shaped glass tube) two wires stick out. I twist them together or use just one from each end. I have seen CFLs with two independent glass-tubes.

I always leave the glass-tube on the disk-shaped plastic support to which it is glued by some cement.

It is against all safety regulations to open up the base of a CFL, you do it at your own risk. People with two left hands should not do it.

Greetings, Conrad

Thank you Conrad, that is really very helpful!

For those who are interested, here is a datasheet for H1061. see attached.

cheers,

lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Montec on April 13, 2011, 05:16:21 PM
Hello lanenel

I think the red dot at post 5 should be at post 6 for the red wire to be counter wound to the 21 layer winding.

The schematic looks good otherwise.

:)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on April 14, 2011, 02:18:30 PM
May be it is off topic, I did some tests about the power consumption when driving a CFL by help of a fly back transformer:

Attached see a circuit which is in essence a MOSFET with a pulse width modulated signal at its gate. The MOSFET drives the primary of a fly back transformer.

By programming a TI-launch pad

http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/MSP430_LaunchPad_(MSP-EXP430G2)?DCMP=launchpad&HQS=Other+OT+launchpadwiki

I can create whatever pulse signal I want.

The best result is a 300 Hz signal with a 0.9% duty cycle. At 2 Volts it lights up a 15 Watt CFL with about 3 mA.  This 6 Milliwatt operation is the lowest I could get. The CFL is nicely visible in the dark (like a night light) but does not have any use.

To get useful light I need 10.000 Hz with a duty cycle of 30%. This means 150 mA at 2 Volt, i.e. 0.3 Watt.

If one is modest, 3000 Hz with a duty cycle of 8% needs about 25 mA at 2 Volt, i.e. 50 Milliwatt, and produces a modest light which allows you to pass through a room without hitting anything.

Never mind the crude contraption, it is only to test many MOSFETs and fly back transformers. I will build a nicer lamp, but the program still needs some more work. The microprocessor needs less than a Milliwatt and the whole Launch Pad costs less than 5 Euros (including the USB-cable), so it can stay in the finished lamp.

The MOSFET used is crutial, because many MOSFETS do not operate well below 3 Volt.

The best I found: VISHAY SILICONIX - SI2377EDS-T1-GE3 - MOSFET,P KANAL,20V,4.4A,DIODE,ESD,SOT23
Farnell Order Code: 1858946  (0.48 Euro)
0.1 Ohm at 1.8 Volt
(this MOSFET is terribly small, a pain to solder and to use, P-channel, 1 = OFF, 0 = ON)

This experiment serves to show what sort of low power operation of a CFL can be done with "conventional means".

But LaserSaber's circuit and his famous transformer seem to light a CFL much more efficiently, although it seems to need quite a high Voltage (up to 80 Volt) to start it up and to work for some minutes on an electrolytic capacitor. (The initial power input might well be in the Watts.)

This experiment also shows that it is indeed necessary to build "something unconventional" to have it "ring" for some minutes with only an electrolytic capacitor.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 14, 2011, 02:57:31 PM
May be it is off topic, I did some tests about the power consumption when driving a CFL by help of a fly back transformer:

Attached see a circuit which is in essence a MOSFET with a pulse width modulated signal at its gate. The MOSFET drives the primary of a fly back transformer.

By programming a TI-launch pad

http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/MSP430_LaunchPad_(MSP-EXP430G2)?DCMP=launchpad&HQS=Other+OT+launchpadwiki (http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/MSP430_LaunchPad_%28MSP-EXP430G2%29?DCMP=launchpad&HQS=Other+OT+launchpadwiki)

I can create whatever pulse signal I want.

The best result is a 300 Hz signal with a 0.9% duty cycle. At 2 Volts it lights up a 15 Watt CFL with about 3 mA.  This 6 Milliwatt operation is the lowest I could get. The CFL is nicely visible in the dark (like a night light) but does not have any use.

To get useful light I need 10.000 Hz with a duty cycle of 30%. This means 150 mA at 2 Volt, i.e. 0.3 Watt.

If one is modest, 3000 Hz with a duty cycle of 8% needs about 25 mA at 2 Volt, i.e. 50 Milliwatt, and produces a modest light which allows you to pass through a room without hitting anything.

Never mind the crude contraption, it is only to test many MOSFETs and fly back transformers. I will build a nicer lamp, but the program still needs some more work. The microprocessor needs less than a Milliwatt an the whole Launch Pad costs less than 5 Euros (including the USB-cable), so it can stay in the finished lamp.

The MOSFET used is crutial, because many MOSFETS do not operate well below 3 Volt.

The best I found: VISHAY SILICONIX - SI2377EDS-T1-GE3 - MOSFET,P KANAL,20V,4.4A,DIODE,ESD,SOT23
Farnell Order Code: 1858946  (0.48 Euro)
0.1 Ohm at 1.8 Volt
(this MOSFET is terribly small, a pain to solder and to use, P-channel, 1 = OFF, 0 = ON)

This experiment serves to show what sort of low power operation of a CFL can be done with "conventional means".

But LaserSaber's circuit and his famous transformer seem to light a CFL much more efficiently, although it seems to need quite a high Voltage (up to 80 Volt) to start it up and to work for some minutes on an electrolytic capacitor. (The initial power input might well be in the Watts.)

This experiment also shows that it is indeed necessary to build "something unconventional" to have it "ring" for some minutes with only an electrolytic capacitor.

Greetings, Conrad

Conrad:

Very nice build over there.  I have used a JT outputting about 1,000 volts to light a cfl and I still did not like the light output.  This was from an AA battery and I have no idea what the amp draw was.  I am working now with led bulbs designed to run on grid power and they are waaaay brighter than any cfl I ever did on about 350-400 volts. (Also powered by a single AA.)

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on April 14, 2011, 03:34:58 PM
Bill:

The way to go is of course LEDs, if saving power when producing light is the objective.

But a big spiral CFL when softly glowing in the dark (with little power) is very cool and I like to use it instead of a candle, just for the effect.

By using different pulses, the light from the CFL can be from orange to white. Not useful, but nice.

I will test LEDs with my microprocessor/MOSFET combination, using an air coil. This should give a nice reading light with 100 Milliwatts. A Joule Thief would be better in the sense, that the batteries can run lower and it still works. The microprocessor stops working at 1.8 Volt, but one can keep the brightness constant over the falling Voltage (from 3 volt to 1.8 Volt when using 2 batteries). Using three batteries (4.5 down to 1.8 Volts) would allow to run them down to 0.6 Volts each.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 14, 2011, 04:09:23 PM
Conrad:

I understand.  If you are interested, check out my latest video where i compare my newest JT powered twin led bulb light to that of a JT driven cfl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb7HUuFFJnM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb7HUuFFJnM)

The shutter on my cam ramps down and it is a little hard to see the real difference but, my single led bulb (27 chip leds) is at least 2 times as much light as the cfl circuit.  Then I show my twin set-up which is way brighter still.  I will do amp draw tests as I have been asked for them but, I have been running these lights for a while now and they are still bright so , I am guessing it is not all that high.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on April 15, 2011, 09:00:36 AM
Conrad:

I understand.  If you are interested, check out my latest video where i compare my newest JT powered twin led bulb light to that of a JT driven cfl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb7HUuFFJnM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb7HUuFFJnM)

Bill

A question concerning these LED bulb lights:

They are intended for 110V alternating current (in the USA)? Do you remove anything from the base of the lamp to use them with the FUJI-circuit?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2011, 10:41:02 AM
Conrad:

No.  I just hook them up the way they come from the store.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on April 15, 2011, 05:28:08 PM
Anybody see this video by lasersaber?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cughym4y7Ow

Is this April fools or what?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on April 15, 2011, 05:36:15 PM
Working A-F-P "Dr Lirpa Sloof" technology exposed!

lirpa=april

sloof=fools

nice one Laser Saber
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 16, 2011, 09:34:44 AM
Hello lanenel

I think the red dot at post 5 should be at post 6 for the red wire to be counter wound to the 21 layer winding.

The schematic looks good otherwise.

:)

Hi Montec,

Thanks for the comments.

Yeah, I don't know for sure about that yet, only lasersaber can verify it beyond any doubt: that is, if he counter wound it from pin 6 to pin 5 or not. If he did, then my dot notation should be correct.

Then why I put the dot at pin 5? That's because I suppose it has a joule-thief background, and my analysis of the circuit support it.

I'd love to know why you think the dot should be at pin 6.

cheers,

lanenal

P.S.: it might not be crucial which is which, for if the circuit doesn't work this way, simply swap the two ends (pin 5&6), then you should have it right the latter way.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: sergdo on April 17, 2011, 04:39:12 PM
That made under the scheme which is your forum has been taken, a small toy (a very good toy works) on the bifilar coil.
But I do not iron nraivtsya, I want to peredlat iron core.
Video and circuit inside the video - for povtoroeniya experiment, can someone be interested.
PS
hlchu also now having the oscillator spark economic examine the effect Hatchinkinsa

With respect to the readers and writers Sergei Dobrozhansky
sergeij.dobrojanskij @ gmail.com


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bVxfctSy1s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_AZLsyV4vg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8u0HDsVMZI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwl_sYtQ_qM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bVxfctSy1s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bVxfctSy1s)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_AZLsyV4vg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_AZLsyV4vg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8u0HDsVMZI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8u0HDsVMZI)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwl_sYtQ_qM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwl_sYtQ_qM)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: sergdo on April 18, 2011, 03:57:59 PM
http://sergdo.livejournal.com/
there are many interesting links and some interesting information can read through the Google translator translate.google.com your forum and read through translate.google.com 
and ---
http://www.google.com/reader/bundle/user%2F07084693184705643035%2Fbundle%2Fsergdo
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 19, 2011, 08:20:01 AM
Believe it or not, when the media is talking about China as the world factory, I can't get a China made ferrite core that is fit for Joule Ringer as posted by lasersaber, I was told that China made ones are much inferior, they can't meet the high AL-value (nH/N2). That's so unfortunate.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 19, 2011, 10:25:33 AM
Believe it or not, when the media is talking about China as the world factory, I can't get a China made ferrite core that is fit for Joule Ringer as posted by lasersaber, I was told that China made ones are much inferior, they can't meet the high AL-value (nH/N2). That's so unfortunate.

Therefore a question: what is the original core in the fuji transformer? Is it also ferrite or something else?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 19, 2011, 11:33:32 AM
Therefore a question: what is the original core in the fuji transformer? Is it also ferrite or something else?

Fuji has many different styles of transformers out there that are used but, all of the ones I am familiar with have ferrite cores.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on April 19, 2011, 12:46:43 PM
Fuji has many different styles of transformers out there that are used but, all of the ones I am familiar with have ferrite cores.

Bill

Thanks. I might just grab an inferior one and give it a try first. With almost half Al value, the current consumption will double...

Another question: what is the core material used in the bifiler coil? I looked into a book, and it seems even a bifiler should have an inductance, maybe around 50 uH, depending on the core material -- in fact, everything has an inductance.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 19, 2011, 01:02:55 PM
Thanks. I might just grab an inferior one and give it a try first. With almost half Al value, the current consumption will double...

Another question: what is the core material used in the bifiler coil? I looked into a book, and it seems even a bifiler should have an inductance, maybe around 50 uH, depending on the core material -- in fact, everything has an inductance.

A bifilar coil may or may not have a core at all.  It all depends upon what you are trying to do.  Bifilar just means 2 wires wound together so core material can vary or it can be an air core also.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 23, 2011, 08:43:46 PM
Anybody see this video by lasersaber?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cughym4y7Ow

Is this April fools or what?
I just saw the video.
I can imagine the large incandescent bulb took up some power, but a large frost-free refrigerator would take up a lot more.  The power drill-type of demonstration would take up to 1500 watts or more, depending how hard he presses the drill speed trigger or button.  Would a power drill work?  If so, and the device is duplicatable, then he's on to something.  He might have to hide from the power company thugs or MIB's.

I find it hard to try and reverse engineer the thing in the video by me just looking at it.  It looks a lot simpler than the drawing on Reply #323, this thread, page 22.  The drawing in Reply #325 is more like it.

I thought he might have powered it from a hidden power line cord under the table, but then he picked the whole thing up to light up the dark room he was in.

He said it worked like a tank circuit, so component values may be important.

--Lee
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Taylor1992 on April 23, 2011, 09:14:43 PM
It screams April Fools, and it was even posted on April 1st. And the doctor's name is just April Fools backwards(Lipra Sloof). AFP=April Fools Prank.
But it does kind of make me wonder if it really was a joke or not after seeing his latest work.
I would just think it was a few 9 volt batteries inside of the strip and a 12 volt bulb maybe?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 24, 2011, 12:04:10 AM
It screams April Fools, and it was even posted on April 1st. And the doctor's name is just April Fools backwards(Lipra Sloof). AFP=April Fools Prank.
But it does kind of make me wonder if it really was a joke or not after seeing his latest work.
I would just think it was a few 9 volt batteries inside of the strip and a 12 volt bulb maybe?
I was an electronic technician in the past.  That bulb should be more than 12 VDC or AC.  It's got an industry standard base that goes to a 110 VAC outlet.  The light bulb doesn't look like it's fully bright, but he can actually plug in more strips and more bulbs to see what happens and then tape that demonstration for all to see.

Okay, he (lasersaber), has an updated video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLQATOjZhE&NR=1

--Lee
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: FittySense on May 01, 2011, 02:52:06 AM
I know a way to power that and it would work really well. All you need is a satellite dish and LNA from dish network. The LNA puts out a lot of voltage when it is pointed at the satellite. More than you would be comfortable holding on to.

Combined with your JT circuit, you would never run out of free light.

It is kind of a round about way of building a solar cell since the satellite is powered by them, which converts it into microwave and downlinks it to your home.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: nievesoliveras on May 01, 2011, 01:57:27 PM
I know a way to power that and it would work really well. All you need is a satellite dish and LNA from dish network. The LNA puts out a lot of voltage when it is pointed at the satellite. More than you would be comfortable holding on to.

Combined with your JT circuit, you would never run out of free light.

It is kind of a round about way of building a solar cell since the satellite is powered by them, which converts it into microwave and downlinks it to your home.
Welcome!

What is an LNA?

Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: ElectricGoose on May 01, 2011, 03:13:35 PM
I know a way to power that and it would work really well. All you need is a satellite dish and LNA from dish network. The LNA puts out a lot of voltage when it is pointed at the satellite. More than you would be comfortable holding on to.

Combined with your JT circuit, you would never run out of free light.

It is kind of a round about way of building a solar cell since the satellite is powered by them, which converts it into microwave and downlinks it to your home.

Dont be stupid.  LNA = Low Noise Amplifier.  Like any amp you need power in the first place to amplify that incoming signal. 

Your Sat Dish and LNA are not a free energy device that require no power to operate.

Gawd...the suggestions are becoming dumber everyday.

E-Goose
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 01, 2011, 06:58:35 PM
Dont be stupid.  LNA = Low Noise Amplifier.  Like any amp you need power in the first place to amplify that incoming signal. 

Your Sat Dish and LNA are not a free energy device that require no power to operate.

Gawd...the suggestions are becoming dumber everyday.

E-Goose

To be fair, that is not what he said.  He said that this was a round about way for solar power as the sats are powered by solar and microwaved down to the dish.  So, yes free energy, not OU.  I thought it was a great suggestion as I had no idea of those power levels.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: FittySense on May 01, 2011, 07:06:09 PM
Dont be stupid.  LNA = Low Noise Amplifier.  Like any amp you need power in the first place to amplify that incoming signal. 

Your Sat Dish and LNA are not a free energy device that require no power to operate.

Gawd...the suggestions are becoming dumber everyday.

E-Goose

Stupid? Why don't get a grip and tone it down a bit. Anyone making a JT probably isn't an electronics genius to begin with which probably includes you.

The coax goes through a box that is attached to the power companies ground plane. Maybe that has something to do with it.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: 4Tesla on May 06, 2011, 07:47:32 PM
What happened to lasersaber?  No new videos on YouTube since his April Fools posting.  I hope the MIB didn't think he was serious.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on May 06, 2011, 08:24:29 PM
No, I still here.  I have just been really busy traveling and working.
 
I really do need to post some videos showing a few of my new projects.  I will not post another AFP type video until next April 1.

I may try replicating Romerouk's Muller build as my next project.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: sergdo on May 08, 2011, 03:57:57 PM
ook may be interested in the idea of ​​such a device ktoroya can think boldly called overtone air transformer.


coil L0 - tone
has a height of 157 mm winding
winding diameter of 50 mm
 
Coil L (+1) - first overtone
has a height of 314 mm winding
winding diameter of 25 mm
 
Coil L (-1) j return ("negative") overtone
has a height of 78.5 mm winding
winding diameter of 100 mm
 
 
According to a preliminary idea - the coil L (+1) L0 and L (-1) connected in parallel.
surface coil L0 - tonal wound litz - inductor ...
 
-----
 concept ideas.
 with the induction coil tones - L0, there will arise
in any case, the harmonics - overtones.
 coil L (+1) L (-1) are not only the coils of air
transformer, and at the same time and radiators
emissivity due to its configuration
L (+1) first overtone voice-coil L0 and
L (-1) lower (negative) overtone tone coil L0, ...
that, in this configuration, the transformer winding air,
shall, in connection with the resonance phenomenon to increase the amplitude of the wave
in the coil L0.
 
PS
 Also in this gipotetichskom air transformer is observed
equal masses of copper, due to the peculiarity of the configuration of coils,
 as indicated by N. Tesla. (Equality of the masses of wire) that ultimately must
  also provide amplification of the wave amplitude in the coil L0.
http://pics.livejournal.com/sergdo/pic/000bs2ek.jpg (http://pics.livejournal.com/sergdo/pic/000bs2ek.jpg)

http://sergdo.livejournal.com/340942.html (http://sergdo.livejournal.com/340942.html)

http://sergdo.livejournal.com/339991.html (http://sergdo.livejournal.com/339991.html)

http://sergdo.livejournal.com/339991.html

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 12, 2011, 01:07:39 AM
No, I still here.  I have just been really busy traveling and working.
 
I really do need to post some videos showing a few of my new projects.  I will not post another AFP type video until next April 1.

I may try replicating Romerouk's Muller build as my next project.

  I've been enjoying your videos, lasersaber.  Keep up the good work!  One of these fine days...
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Shokac on June 11, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Hi!

Did someone once tried to make Joule Thief with a 220V DC power supply and air core transformer?

Regards!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: resonanceman on June 12, 2011, 03:07:48 AM
Hi!

Did someone once tried to make Joule Thief with a 220V DC power supply and air core transformer?

Regards!

Shokac

I am pretty  sure no one has done that

I am not sure how you would limit the voltage for the base .

Making a JT that would run bigger coils and higher voltages is on my to do list
The way I would do it would be to make a very small normal JT.... then use the output of that JT to drive the  base of an IGBP  or SCR......something that would handle lots of voltage.

IST  played around  driving  MOTs and stuff in a way similar to what I am thinking of........he made some pretty big sparks.
He suggested using NPN and PNP in push pull configuration.

The limit  of  the voltage you could pulse  your coil with would  be limited only by your transistors.......pretty much any coil could  be pulsed.

gary
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 14, 2011, 12:39:57 AM
Hi!
Did someone once tried to make Joule Thief with a 220V DC power supply and air core transformer?
Regards!
@Shokac
By that do you mean replace the one battery with a 220VAC mains input and a diode or diode string?
I do have enough Radio Shack battery holders to string together and make an aggregate 120VDC.  Maybe a boost transformer after that?  And an air core toroid?

--Lee
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Shokac on June 14, 2011, 08:47:37 AM
In some ways yes. It would be better to put the DC / AC inverter (12 / 110 or 220) and diode bridge.
Batteries are also pretty good solution.

Why do you ask?
Because JT idling consumes a lot of energy to their work. If you would put a greater source then the exit get a lot more energy, and for JT and would be again the same forces. (I hope). Probably in that case had enough energy for his work and for the load? OU???
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 14, 2011, 11:19:41 PM
In some ways yes. It would be better to put the DC / AC inverter (12 / 110 or 220) and diode bridge.
Batteries are also pretty good solution.
I see.  For me, the batteries are fairly cheap and low enough in voltage.
Quote
Why do you ask?
I have a Bench Forum at OUR  ( http://www.overunityresearch.com ) that deals with my personal experiments in low voltage OU.  A couple threads may be applicable to your concepts, but not exactly.
Quote
Because JT idling consumes a lot of energy to their work. If you would put a greater source then the exit get a lot more energy, and for JT and would be again the same forces. (I hope). Probably in that case had enough energy for his work and for the load? OU???
Yes, true.  The Joule Ringer is well known for that performance if the transformer is a toroid.

--Lee
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: LeaningGreen on June 23, 2011, 11:43:48 PM
@Pirate88179
Hi Bill,
What watt were the LOA's you used in the vid? The ones with 27LED's in them...

Conrad:

I understand.  If you are interested, check out my latest video where i compare my newest JT powered twin led bulb light to that of a JT driven cfl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb7HUuFFJnM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb7HUuFFJnM)


@Conrad,
I like seeing a cfl on an AA too. lol

@lasersaber,
4ua is very impressive even for one special LED. The low power 555's take abt 18ua, but they allow more versatility on a 30% on duty cycle.
4ua is so low I'm amazed you can't recover enough to sustain it.
I know it's not an easy process getting a current draw that low to operate anything with.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 24, 2011, 10:13:10 AM
@Pirate88179
Hi Bill,
What watt were the LOA's you used in the vid? The ones with 27LED's in them...

@Conrad,
I like seeing a cfl on an AA too. lol

@lasersaber,
4ua is very impressive even for one special LED. The low power 555's take abt 18ua, but they allow more versatility on a 30% on duty cycle.
4ua is so low I'm amazed you can't recover enough to sustain it.
I know it's not an easy process getting a current draw that low to operate anything with.

Well, I didn't really know until I just read on the side of one of them.  It says:

120 v 2W 45mA's.  I am sure on the package it gave the equivalent wattage of an Edison based bulb but I no longer have that and do not remember what it said.  If I can find it on the net, I will edit my post here.

Bill

***EDIT***  According to Google, it says 40w equivalent for those bulbs for what that is worth.  They put out a lot of light for the money.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: LeaningGreen on June 24, 2011, 07:11:30 PM
@Pirate88179
Thanks Bill,
I could find the specs of 27LED uses 2w, but not much else on that light. It looks much brighter than what most advertize of a 10w output. Wife just headed to Lowes and hope they have them. The website listing didn't look promising. They have LED lights in that size, but list them as 1-10w.
I'll probably have to order them. From your vid, 40 watts looks more reasonable. That will make a nice addition to my collection!

Edit: Well Lowes here has nothing close so thats gonna be an order LED. The closest they have is 1/2 in Sylvania. sigh.. Also, The local Family Dollar store has 60w small spiral cfl's for $1 ea. ! I bought 2 and they look good if you like the soft white look. I prefer the higher K rating myself, but for $1 it's a deal.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 25, 2011, 07:40:41 AM
Walmart is the one that carries those LOA bulbs in my area.  About $7.00 each.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: LeaningGreen on June 26, 2011, 07:31:13 AM
I had to use the buy 3 and free shipping from Amazon. lol
Not a store with in 75mi of me had them.

Thanks for all the info Bill. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 26, 2011, 01:42:14 PM
I had to use the buy 3 and free shipping from Amazon. lol
Not a store with in 75mi of me had them.

Thanks for all the info Bill. Much appreciated.

No problem at all.

You will put those three to good use I am sure.  When you see how great they light compared to a cfl on the same JT, you will love them.

PS  I did not mod the bulbs in any way and used the Edison base to hook up my wires.  I have no idea why that works, but it does.  I ended up taking one apart and ran my wires directly to the leds to compare and I saw no real difference.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: LeaningGreen on June 26, 2011, 11:55:53 PM
I saw where you used the base as is. Pretty neat. I plan to do the same. My guess is the base only has 2 diodes in it and runs the LEDs on 1/2wave DC. The output of a JT from the coil is AC so that would work. I have seen an LED light on low AC. My only explanation is the diode itself rectifies the AC from a + & - sinewave. CFL circuitry is much more specific on its needs.

My wife had called me with a cpl she found while shopping and I looked them up but the specs were nothing close to the LOA ones you posted so I passed and just placed the order. They were all abt 50% of the LOA in wattage, low K(orange) and the current draw was high.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: cwyong on July 30, 2011, 05:12:20 AM
I have now been able to make successful replications of my Joule Ringer circuit.  I reduced everything to the minimum number of parts needed.  I found out the the number 2 coil can be an air core coil.  I will post a DIY video with lots of new details and schematic later tonight after I get back from Church.


Wow...Great Job.
Nice and simple.








http://led-lighting-world.blogspot.com
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on August 26, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
I have this working with a solar system in my workshop.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRuwV9IlaY



Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 26, 2011, 07:53:56 PM
I have this working with a solar system in my workshop.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRuwV9IlaY
thumbs up!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 26, 2011, 09:11:57 PM
I have this working with a solar system in my workshop.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRuwV9IlaY
@lasersaber
Yes, impressive.  I myself can light a couple of fluorescent tubes in series with wall mains power, but your research prototype is a whole lot better.

Can you upload a schematic?  Possibly a similar circuit found on the 'Web that you have the address to?

--Lee
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on August 27, 2011, 03:34:08 AM
Very well done Lasersaber.

Maybe you can offer a kit for it ?

Or would be great, if you could post a circuit diagram.

Many thanks for your great work.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on August 27, 2011, 03:35:43 AM
P.S: What input power is this drawing ?

12 Volts x 200 Milliamps ?
So 2.4 Watts only ?

Are these CFLs bulbs or LEDs ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: LeaningGreen on August 27, 2011, 04:48:29 AM
Very nice work lasersaber!
That's some output.
A schematic would be appreciated. Even if we can't find the exact toroid it should be a good start to work from with another one.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on August 29, 2011, 08:23:44 AM
Is a big ring - ferrite? Is coils bi-filiar or Caducey?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on September 24, 2011, 12:19:19 AM
http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/joule_thief/
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: sergdo on October 11, 2011, 08:46:31 PM
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FCNnk-yAzq8/ToAEwp4wF5I/AAAAAAAAAUE/KdSa6dTq8G8/s720/sxemakachalki.jpg
 (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FCNnk-yAzq8/ToAEwp4wF5I/AAAAAAAAAUE/KdSa6dTq8G8/s720/sxemakachalki.jpg)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aPCjW6I-9-c/TnMk95PlPpI/AAAAAAAAAS8/F5_qKZpbYho/s720/000f2eqf.jpg (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aPCjW6I-9-c/TnMk95PlPpI/AAAAAAAAAS8/F5_qKZpbYho/s720/000f2eqf.jpg)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: LeaningGreen on October 12, 2011, 12:13:25 AM
For those of you that use the fuji or kodak type circuit Goldmine has them on sale for $0.49 ea!
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610&utm_source=Goldmine&utm_campaign=fe7d19f680-Sept10&utm_medium=email
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on October 18, 2011, 04:30:27 PM
here is a new device of russian inventor Zusanna

http://youtu.be/p4nyWQOwRTc
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Taylor1992 on October 18, 2011, 06:31:15 PM
here is a new device of russian inventor Zusanna

http://youtu.be/p4nyWQOwRTc


Looks like a crystal radio
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lakes on October 18, 2011, 08:49:03 PM
Must be some really high power RF there to light those lamps, maybe he lives next door to the transmitter station. :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on October 19, 2011, 11:27:37 AM
there are two bulbs power is 1,5 Watt - it is not possible to get it from radio no way!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: wings on October 19, 2011, 11:43:45 AM
there are two bulbs power is 1,5 Watt - it is not possible to get it from radio no way!

please post the diagram
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Taylor1992 on October 19, 2011, 04:10:48 PM
there are two bulbs power is 1,5 Watt - it is not possible to get it from radio no way!

They have LED styles of those bulbs available. And he says below the video that it doesn't work in a Faraday cage. But this isn't the thread for this discussion
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on October 22, 2011, 04:12:43 PM
there are two bulbs power is 1,5 Watt - it is not possible to get it from radio no way!
here is schematic diagram
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gyulasun on October 22, 2011, 10:25:19 PM
here is schematic diagram

Hi Ganzha,

Is it known how much DC current is taken from the 3V battery by the oscillator?
What is the type of diode D9? Also a Germanium like the transistor?

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on October 23, 2011, 04:49:29 AM
D9 is well known old type of USSR Germanium Diod, P411A is a military type Germanium transistor with Working FQ 400 MHz for variety RF oscillators and etc. It is not discontinued untill now.
This deviced is self suplayed and 3 Volt is for small lithyum battery and It is needs for start then it should be removed from device, for ever.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on October 23, 2011, 05:38:58 AM
here is Datasheet for P411A
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gyulasun on October 23, 2011, 03:31:47 PM
...
This deviced is self suplayed and 3 Volt is for small lithyum battery and It is needs for start then it should be removed from device, for ever.

Hi Ganzha,

Thanks for the two components details.  Diode D9 could be substitued by OA160, OA5 or 1N34 types, all small signal Germanium diodes.

You have shown a scope shot on the oscillator waveform in your Reply #383 in the previous page.  It resembles very much an Amplitude Modulated (AM) radio signal, see this link on such typical AM waveform:
http://content.esotericteaching.org/content/0801/images/Amplitude-Modulation.jpg

I think the best check on this waveform in the oscillator shown in the video would be to make another short video where this waveform could be seen on the oscilloscope while the oscillator is working.  This way it would become clear whether the antenna wire attached receives an AM broadcast station in the 500 - 1500 kHz MW band (near 720 kHz from the scope shot) because the change of the modulation (music or speech) would continously be seen on the oscilloscope display. 
Unfortunately, the 1.5 Watt is possible to get from radio broadcast, it is a question of the distance from the AM transmitter. Whether the modulation waveform continuosly changes or not from the music or speech of an AM broadcast station nearby, it could be a good method to check and show it on the scope. 
Please do not get this as an insult, I fully believe the bulbs are lit when the 3V starter battery is removed and the antenna wire is connected. Just want to help to clear this 'mistery'.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on October 26, 2011, 02:31:54 AM
This signal is a from "radio pointer" - part of "navigation sysnem' from local airoport.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gyulasun on October 26, 2011, 09:45:16 AM
This signal is a from "radio pointer" - part of "navigation sysnem' from local airoport.

Hi Ganzha,

Thank you for this info! Honesty is a very much needed feature in seeking excess energy.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on October 26, 2011, 11:00:27 PM
This signal is a from "radio pointer" - part of "navigation sysnem' from local airoport.

The question is, if this radio pointer from the airport really has so much power,
that it can light up these 2 bulbs ?

Or is this only an exiting frequency to tap other background radiation
or because the circuit generates its own power somehow like
for instance Morray has shown ? ( Although Morray used
radioactive excited LC circuits to amplify the input excitation waveform...!)

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
P.S: Ganzha, can you let us know, where they stated that it is a signal
from the airport ? Please post the URL of this statement.
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on October 27, 2011, 02:12:32 PM
This signal is a from "radio pointer" - part of "navigation sysnem' from local airoport.

This being said, can it be replicated by people not near an airport?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on October 28, 2011, 03:35:02 AM
Video: http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4 (http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4)

Check here for more info:  http://www.laserhacker.com/index.html (http://www.laserhacker.com/index.html)

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: T-1000 on October 28, 2011, 04:31:18 AM
Video: http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4 (http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4)

Cool stuff :)

I waited for the truth almost 3 months. As you are tinker, you might try play with ringing ferrite ring on CW+CCW winding and play around with scalar magnetic fields so load would be separated from input. Also there is cool feature about magnifying power so CFLs might be changed to eddy bulbs/other load in success.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: wings on October 28, 2011, 08:33:26 AM
Cool stuff :)

I waited for the truth almost 3 months. As you are tinker, you might try play with ringing ferrite ring on CW+CCW winding and play around with scalar magnetic fields so load would be separated from input. Also there is cool feature about magnifying power so CFLs might be changed to eddy bulbs/other load in success.

Good luck!


like in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIFJ5o1eqsE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on October 28, 2011, 12:05:08 PM
Video: http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4 (http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4)

Check here for more info:  http://www.laserhacker.com/index.html (http://www.laserhacker.com/index.html)

Thanks , Thanks , Thanks ......
Ačiu ...Ačiu ...Ačiu ...

http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/joule_thief/

Antanas
Lithuania
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on October 28, 2011, 01:58:51 PM
Video: http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4 (http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4)

Check here for more info:  http://www.laserhacker.com/index.html (http://www.laserhacker.com/index.html)

Great circuit Lasersaber !

Can you put any kind of damping material around the core so that it does
not make this annoying sound ?

Do you also charge with the BackEMF pulses the batteries ?

With Li-Ion batteries it is dangerous to use the BackEMF pulses to charge them.
But you are using Li-Iron Phospate LiFeYPO4  batteries, so is this still critical ?

P.S: How did you wind the primary 20 windings ?
In parrallel, so they are bifilar ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: woopy on October 28, 2011, 05:11:55 PM
Wow !! Lasersaber

well done

i will have a go on this one

I looked on ebay but the only RED big and thin toroids i have found are not METGLAS.

Are you sure that the red toroid is Metglas and have you eventually a number or something helpfull in order to find this part ?

Do you think that a big ferrite torroid could work , or no chance.?

Thank's for sharing

Laurent
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: T-1000 on October 28, 2011, 08:38:38 PM
like in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIFJ5o1eqsE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

There are many ways for accomplishment on same result :)
I would prefer AV diode plug charging capacitor (remember LEDs lighted up in exciter?) then discharge to coil over Schmitt diodes or similar components (for general idea please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmitt_trigger ). The secondary coil could have connected to exciter so you would have coil-capacitor there for the link to first exciter. Also there are interesting power amplification result after scalar magnetic impulse forming so you get secondary exciter there :)
In my team lab this is done with high voltages and stuff but should be possible also with lower energy levels.

Have fun and good new experience! :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on October 29, 2011, 03:50:40 AM
I wrote down the circuit diagramm for this circuit and
it must be noted, that it is a Joule Thief circuit.

The primary 2 x 10 Windings coils wound in parallel
must NOT be connected to the transistor case at the top where in the pictured
the +13 Volts is stated !

The +13 Volts is only just connected to the 2 coils,
but not to the transistor case !
Very important !
Otherwise you would produce a shortcircuit of the battery !


The 750 Winding coil is just the 3rd coil as a pickup coil
which outputs the High Voltage AC.
As it is only about  2 to 4 Khz range ( estimated from
the annoying tone)
this AC voltage could be quite lethal, so avoid to touch and get shocked
by it !

Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on October 29, 2011, 10:05:24 AM
This is what the circuit seems to be.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: zhak on October 29, 2011, 11:42:54 AM
Video: http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4 (http://youtu.be/a0ni3noZMQ4)

Check here for more info:  http://www.laserhacker.com/index.html (http://www.laserhacker.com/index.html)

Dip the ferrite ring in the epoxy, it will not be so loud beep to make sounds
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on October 30, 2011, 09:15:57 AM
Thanks xee2 for posting the drawing of the circuit.

Yes, that seems to be the circuit.
The question is, if the primary windings are 2 x 20 windings
or 2 x 10 windings.

Maybe Lasersaber can confirm this ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on October 30, 2011, 09:46:27 AM
????????????????

 2 x 20 windings = ???? mm
    750 windings = ???? mm
????????????????????
THANKS....
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on October 31, 2011, 04:25:25 PM
It's 2 x 20 windings.  I have not measured the wire gauge.

I updated my website with more pictures and a source for the bulbs.

http://www.laserhacker.com/ (http://www.laserhacker.com/)

More to come soon.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on October 31, 2011, 05:06:20 PM

It's 2 x 20 windings.  I have not measured the wire gauge.

I updated my website with more pictures and a source for the bulbs.

http://www.laserhacker.com/ (http://www.laserhacker.com/)

More to come soon.

THANKS.. THANKS....

http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/joule_thief/

NEW INFO FREE ENERGY......

http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/aidas/
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: woopy on November 01, 2011, 12:12:23 AM
Hi Lasersaber

thank's for the new pix

ouch!! the 750 winding probably some hours of hard finger pain.

Any knews about the material of toroid , can you confirm that it is  METGLAS , and if yes any idea where you got it?

I have made some testing with my TV toroid (the biggest i have at the present ) I could light 1 LED bulb as yours but not very bright , but i think to do better this next times. Just for fun i get enough electrical exitation of the surrounding in my shop that i remember the Slayer experiment.

Will go on the test, very interesting. Just for info my actual secondary is made with 7 stranded 0.125 mm copper (Romero's purpose ) and i separated each strand to make different testing. With only one strand i could lit the LED bulb. So yep let's go on.

Thank's for sharing

Laurent

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on November 01, 2011, 04:27:36 PM
Great schematics from LaserSaber!!!! Thank you very much!!!!!

Suzanna is published a new schematics of zero point reciever
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on November 04, 2011, 10:04:47 AM
Schematics from Suzanna (last one) has an improvement that conversed this device inro Joule Ringer! Look carefully
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on November 05, 2011, 05:08:02 AM
Susanna confirmed that we can use 2N2222 (KT315- KT361) instead of "Artefact from Warenhouse 13" -  P411A  ;D
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on November 05, 2011, 05:32:16 AM
Practically Lasersaber had used so called Barkhausen Noises look!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on November 05, 2011, 09:16:51 AM
I have to say that shematics of all Joule Tiffs Joule Ringers is from russian inventor. His name ius Maksimatchuk and he already publised his Schematics since 1970
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: flathunter on November 29, 2011, 09:59:08 PM
Hi Guys!


I've managed to get some great results with a very simple circuit which may interest you.   600 - 800 microamps lighting lots of CFLs and xenons on 1AA.  The circuit is just a darlinton pair (TIP 31C) a 280 ohm resistor, and a flyback.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD4YOpzKxBQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD4YOpzKxBQ)


And here is another video of a very similar circuit demonstrating the ''ringing'' effect that Laser showed us all those months ago (Thanks Laser!  Im a big fan :))....it also shows the current draw with the CFL lit all the way down the (literally) the last microamp....Im using 1AA in an emergency charger to give the 58000 microfarad cap the initial blast of energy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSBh939T2TM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSBh939T2TM&feature=related)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: quantumtangles on March 09, 2012, 04:04:11 AM
@ Laser et al,


Interesting video from Laser on Youtube (the toroid combo lighting an array of (120v?) bulbs. Fairly serious and non-delirious. I shall upgrade my vanilla flavoured joule thief.

But I wonder (as commentators on YT have also asked), whether this is an abstraction event, which is to say, that by resonant induction, the ferrite toroid (with multiple windings) is really grabbing electricity parasitically by induction from the surrounding electrical crunchiness (e.g. from the mains voltage supply in nearby walls etc).

Is this parasitic abstraction (we could use other words) of electricity by resonant induction (getting free electricity from wires in the wall)?  Or does Laser's ringer work more than say 20m away from any electrical mains wires and sockets as well?

Finally, and only slightly off topic, another wonderful youtube publisher (aside from laser) is Afrotechmods....and, getting closer to being on topic, he has some fascinating inductor and transistor videos; the best I have seen on Youtube. His video entitled 'Fun with Ultracapacitors' is funny. I sprayed the tea I was drinking over my power-supply. Certainly the most amusing electrical engineering video. Coin collectors may find the video hard to watch. ;D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoWMF3VkI6U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoWMF3VkI6U)


kind regards,
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 12, 2012, 05:43:16 PM
Great schematics from LaserSaber!!!! Thank you very much!!!!!

Suzanna is published a new schematics of zero point reciever
I drew a similar diagram with an input of 2 long wires to two counterwound coils.   The output was immediately rectified and taken to a battery.   The drawing is still somewhere, but mot necessarily on my old Sandisk thumb drive that doesn't work with newer software.   I might have to look for it later amongst my notes.

--Lee
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Johnnyhou on March 22, 2012, 07:58:44 PM
I have read the entire thread on the joule ringer and watched the related videos, find it quite interesting to produce such ample light with such a small current draw. I like the idea of building a small V.A.W.T. to produce enough electricity from the wind to light an area. I was wondering about the torroid itself being difficult to find, and I did some experiments using other materials. Soft iron has the tendency to become magnetized so it would not work for this kind of circuit, but if a soft iron core is pulsed with DC pulses where the polarity of the input is reversed every other pulse, I think it is possible to use a core made of something as simple as bale wire. I am not experienced or very knowlegable of electrical circuits, so if there is someone out there who can recognize some problem with this idea I certainly would appreciate being enlightened.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Johnnyhou on March 25, 2012, 08:11:21 AM
Nice of you all not to address my newbie ignorance of using a soft iron core, after some testing it seems that quite a bit of amperage is needed to induce a magnetic flux into an iron core so the efficiency goes right out the door. I did find that alot of speakers use perhaps Mumetal backings on the magnets. I believe that cutting the center out of these large round speaker magnet backings will yeild a large flat washer looking ring that could perhaps be used as a torroidial core. Should I get my hands on one I'll be sure to post the results of my findings. Happy experimenting!
   
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: 27Bubba on March 27, 2012, 09:54:54 PM
Hi All,

What about cutting large Tv yoke in half, would this work for the YT toroid? I successfully cut one with diamond cutoff wheel mounted on pneumatic die grinder while back.  It is very dusty job so do it in well ventilated space and wear mask...  Soon I'm going to wind one so I post the results and pictures.. ;)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on March 29, 2012, 05:45:48 AM
Has anybody made a joule ringer with the base on the transistor disconnected?  Where you would normally put the resistor - just leave the circuit open at that point.  I have been seeing some very interesting results running my new joule ringer in this mode.  I will post a video update soon. This new design is super easy to build using standard parts.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TimmyWah on April 16, 2012, 05:25:10 PM
Hi all,this is my first post and I am not sure if I am in the right area.
I need to say "Thank you" to Lidmotor for suggesting "use anything you have".
Now this is a 273-1365A Radio Shack transformer with MJ13007 trans,orange 225ppw 100DC cap and a decade/resistor wheel.Running off an auto battery 14.8v-my meter says 12.6v.
After being annoyed about the price to import(Melbourne-AU)Lights of America LED's I came across GU10.
Have any of you worked with GU10's?
I did some comparison tests with CFL's also and am now sticking with GU10's.
I am posting this picture to show I am replicating and need help/advice.
Is there better transistors and caps to use in these circuits?
I am waiting for some IRF530's to arrive and will try them with an inductor on the base.
I have also ran this circuit using a AA1.5v joule thief and 5v cell phone chargers,but I might stick to auto battery as I may change to 12v SLA for Solar.
Any help kindly appreciated,
Tim.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Peanutbutter29 on April 18, 2012, 01:10:51 AM
Just wanted to say thanks Lasersaber for the super efficient circuit.  I've been using it for battery testing and it works well. 

Also, I tried another coil for the driver (as I'm playing a bit) that seems to work well. It won't turn on at quite as low of voltage as with the ferrite in your circuit; but seems to work through and past LED conduction?!  I posted a first video just to show what's going on, but ya;  need to test some more. 

It shows the same basic circuit. Power in across a 10uF, and same 2n2222a and same 5M dual audio. I changed the cap across pot. to 10pf.  And these two flat coils are laid for opposing winds.  I say in the video what's connected where for the coil. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTvnL2HMVow&context=C4c1290aADvjVQa1PpcFPFfx6ZklIUC1rsLOrQVBXU4ajj1gGHw24=

I'm going to play around with some other things, but I wanted to post this curious effect too. 

Thanks
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Peanutbutter29 on April 20, 2012, 03:53:53 AM
I added a dc converter- rectifier output to the circuit I posted, that seems to work well!  I believe I give all the values for things in the video.  But I was able to light 5 leds (startup min.) at .9v and at 3.6v it draws about what 1 LED is rated for.  Seems to allow for a very smooth and fairly regulated output (about 1v variation on the output with about 4v input change.  I didn't point in the video that there's an extra 640mv drop across the 1N914 diodes in the rectifier
  I dunno, maybe adding this onto some of the JT circuits can help for powering small loads that need DC.  I imagine you could run pulse and timer circuits off it, who knows.  At least it's not clamping the V rise across the CE bridge anymore, yay!  just playing around I supose. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElLQWP3MYKI&context=C440043bADvjVQa1PpcFM_FOEtEp-AEsEAWqO00PXaWjC48gIdryc=
maybe it can help.
Thanks
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on April 27, 2012, 08:59:24 PM

All info here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=homZvbKZHlU
Schematic here:  http://laserhacker.com/
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on April 27, 2012, 09:07:33 PM
All info here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=homZvbKZHlU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=homZvbKZHlU)
Schematic here:  http://laserhacker.com/ (http://laserhacker.com/)

THANKS ....

FULL  SCHEMATIC ????


www.freeenergylt.narod2.ru/joule_thief/
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on April 27, 2012, 09:55:47 PM
Quote
FULL  SCHEMATIC ????

It's on my website.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on April 27, 2012, 09:58:11 PM

It's on my website.
PHOTO -YES ...
SCHEMATIC ??? ?
CORECT ADRESSS IMAGE ,LINK IMAGE ??? ??
TURN COIL ???
CONDENCATOR ???
TRANZISTOR ??? ?

...............
VIEV LINK ....

www.freeenergylt.narod2.ru/joule_thief/LaserSaber_circuit_2.jpg

THANKS ....
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Peanutbutter29 on April 27, 2012, 10:55:04 PM
Thanks for the new video!

I was anxious to see if you could get it working without a Square BH or not, but Yay!  Ty for the circuit link also! I have a larger transformer that I've been playing with, but this may be a great way to connect it instead!  So, far I was just running a normal JT connection with 6 LED's on the secondary and either 2 LED's or a battery (yup charging) on the primary @ 1v.  (Edit: posted vid of this setup before tearing down: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3qAGGhEfFc )However, I definitely will try this method of connection. 

Great Job Laser!

PS- I don't want to make a thread and not sure where to put, but I made a video of a JT for low power (380mv+) that does not need a toroid core.  I figured it would be good for those who can't find toroids or have trouble.  I personally hate winding them.  Anyhoo;  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjvkUFBog-o

Thanks
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on April 28, 2012, 11:58:21 AM
Lasersaber! Grear video and great job! Thanks!!!!!!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on April 29, 2012, 01:24:10 AM
Lasersaber well done !

Here is his new circuit:

http://laserhacker.com/SuperJouleRinger2.html


P.S: Why do you use this bifilar coil for the primary and in your circuit
diagram it is not mentioned ?
Does this not connected primary coil have any effect like
a stray capacitance or stray inductance ?

Any current measurement for the input yet ?

Many thanks for your great work !


Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on April 29, 2012, 05:38:44 AM
First replication!


http://youtu.be/0eWhB76toq0


I use bifilar because it spaces out the primary wire better.  I could also use string.  It also gives you the option of hooking it up as a standard joule thief if need be.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on April 30, 2012, 12:37:04 AM
Nice replication of Mopozco !

Lasersaber if you use the standard bifilar design with these 2 interwooven primaries
connected in series. does it get better then and will it use less input power
as these 2 coils will have more stray capacitance which can store more energy ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Peanutbutter29 on April 30, 2012, 02:04:00 AM
Just wanted to say I was able to replicate the super joule thief 2.0!!!  Yay!

Takes a bit of fiddling though.  I tried a TIP31 (not c) and it didn't get a full light.  I have the correct on order though, so I ended up getting a 2n3055 to work well.   The iron core has a bit more loss and doesn't allow as high of frequency, BUT it is extremely quiet.  I think the video shows everything for input and such.  I just wanted to post my "first light"  with this before I start playing ;).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR6pB30DgdM

Coil from Laser 88mH primary 480mH secondary
Feit Electric 13w Compact Fluorescent daylight bulb (not seen a PC fully light before with a JT)
Input @ full light 16.5v @ .47ma (about 8w) lighting 13w fully!
I also checked the Fo of the circuit and it's around 1-1.5Khz depending on voltage.

I figured out also how to start oscillation when you have troubles, so ya' don't have to shake wires.  When your at or near the oscillation voltage (was 4v for the TIP and 10v for the 2N), you just have to "bump" the base with your hand.  The added capacitance is enough to start the oscillation.  This is the same reason peeps put a cap across the resistor to the base on a normal Joule thief. 

I'll do some more playing around with things and see what more I can find.

Thanks again LS for the great use application of a feedback oscillator as opposed to the normal JT blocking type!!! Great job!

Last, if you play around with these circuits, it seems the highest risk is the B-E junction roasting.  So be cautious of that. I mention the reasoning in the video.

Thanks
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Peanutbutter29 on April 30, 2012, 04:30:44 AM
Sorry to double post, but to make this separate.  I posted 2 videos (one still processing) that shows some improvements for this circuit that should come in handy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYL5P4V87Ok

*Fix for the negative bias against the base (potential failure point)
*Fix for the oscillation start up, now starts at 500mV
*Integration for frequency adjust with fine adjustments (raise and lower)
*Integration (in second video) for Capacitors to further adjust frequency (lower of course)

I think the pot connection is pretty key to guarantee an oscillation start and reduce risk of frying the B-E junction.

Thanks
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hoptoad on April 30, 2012, 08:11:50 AM
snip..
Input @ full light 16.5v @ .47ma (about 8w) lighting 13w fully!
snip..

Do you mean .47 Amps (i.e. 470ma) ??

If you really meant .47ma then your consumption would only be a miniscule 7.755 milliWatts not 7.755 watts, (about 8w) lighting 13w fully!   :o

Cheers

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Peanutbutter29 on May 02, 2012, 05:08:27 AM
Ya, sorry for the listing incorrectly there.  I started with .47 and and changed to .470ma, but then must have accidentally erased the zero instead of the decimal.
So it was 7.755w

Also, I was able to get 11 of the 7.5W LED bulbs and try getting more power out of the system.  I think everything's covered in the video, but max power was 29.2w for the 82w total bulbs connected (though not quite as bright as connected to 120vac). I'll have to wait until they get more bulbs in to see if I can run more and might need a bigger source;  but the transformer should take a lot, if I can drive it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ncciyB6SKc

Thanks
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2012, 05:21:10 AM
Hey Peanut

Did you rewind your transformer as Laser has shown? Or are you using a pre wound unit?

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Peanutbutter29 on May 02, 2012, 07:51:12 AM
The coil I'm using is from an old salvage out of a 50Kva Laser supply from a local university.  This is a setup transformer (88mh to 480mh), though was not a high power section.  Also the output wires are 600v rated so it was not HV either.  Also, it was 60hz driven and is iron core, so not designed for HF.  The core is a "loop" laminate design.  Secondaries coils are wrapped on either side and the primary is wound AROUND (EDIT 2: it is possible these are wound on one end of the bobbins after looking more) the outer of both coils.  It IS left in stock wind configuration, I haven't changed anything with it.  Just kept it around because I thought it may be useful someday.

I have another couple, more common transformers;  I'll see if I can get those to work also. 

I believe the biggest loss in this design is from the core and low Q.   Since, the only magical material to solve this is restricted to military (heh, metglas);  the optimal design may be difficult to find.
** If we can find ANY amorphous core with a Square BH we're in business!  I have found 3 manufacturers but only contacted Metglas so far, with the usual run-around.  Otherwise there are some square BH ferrites, and then it would be to finding the highest Al and permeability with the lowest core loss per cm2.

I have an E-core coming that's a bit larger, higher Al and more permeability;  with the same core loss per set (overall area) as Lasersaber's.  We'll see if that makes some difference. 

Ultimately though, it seems our max output may be related to the Energy stored in the secondary (primarily in Inductance) and the maximum flux we can impose on the primary (restricted by transistor power, Impedance, volts, etc).  I believe with the Bias resistor we can drive the primary up to our source or transistor Temp max.  So, then it would seem the trick is to attain as high of Q secondary as possible to maximize output. 

just rambling lol,
Thanks

OH EDIT:  The primary is center tapped but not used here.  If you measure the inductance of either half, you get 9mH;  however across the ends is 88mH.  So the primary winds are in opposition (as pointed out in the earlier LED vids with this trans.), least that's my take.  I may have to remove that covering sometime to better see its' construction.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on May 02, 2012, 10:57:02 PM
Hi Lasersaber,

Great work on the circuit, thanks for posting.

Hi Peanutbutter,

Thank you for your modification, I was able to make it work off a standard transformer with your bias resistor addition. I noticed that one 20watt incandescent light (15vdc,40ma) I can tap the resistor to positive then take it off it will continue to oscillate. For most though they did not show this effect in the current setup.

I have it setup where I'm popping pieces in and out to test so it doesn't look very pretty. (attached pic)

First off this IS NOT an exact replication of Lasersaber's. The parts I'm using have been salvaged from TV/CRT monitors.

The input voltage is 15vdc from ultra-caps.

The working NPN transistors I have tried are TD880, TD1426, C1061. All pulls from CRT's.

I went through a bunch of small transformers and couldn't get them to work with my setup. Seemed like the larger gauge windings the better. The current one has primary of 3.03mh and secondary of 2.7mh. I've got an e-core coming in so I can build Laser's setup.

Now something that is very interesting with this circuit is how it seems to match the load. If you place a bridge rectifier on the output and feed it to a DC motor as the motor speeds up the current drops but the oscillation(whine) will also increase. I used a standard bridge and a 18vdc Dewalt drill motor. It initially draws 15vdc,3amps but as the oscillation increases it speeds up and current drops to 2.89amps. This is unloaded so it's not much of real world example but I found it interesting, maybe someone else can try.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: powercat on May 03, 2012, 01:29:32 AM
One from Lidmotor Super Joule Ringer 2.0  -- My Replicationhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fCQghOQ-E&feature=uploademail
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Peanutbutter29 on May 03, 2012, 01:20:20 PM
@Dream, glad to see you got one working and the resistor helped.  It seems to guarantee about any coil can oscillate;  power out on the other hand is Q and Core loss related. 
  I posted a video giving light output comparisons with the same LED on 120 mains;  using a light meter.  I also explain more how the system works, and the resistor.  Also,  how to know if you can oscillate without a base connection.  Finally I show another improvement with the addition of a L3 coil AFTER the load.
All necessary measures are taken to show input, light, and then % base output. 
  Shows that oscillation without the base can be more finicky.  Just me changing my caps I've been using across L1 and L2 made the single bulb not able to oscillate without the bias tie. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw_-2c19YwI&feature=youtu.be
I've got part 2 uploading, but will list that in a new thread; as it's pretty well a different system.  Not possible without Lasersaber's base design!!! Ty again there.

Hope this helps
Thanks
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: 27Bubba on May 03, 2012, 02:08:39 PM
Impressive! The transformer you are using is single output secondary?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 04, 2012, 10:14:42 AM
Air core Super Joule Ringer

I could replicate the Lasersaber Super Joule Ringer with a big air core (diameter of coil 255 mm, 200 turns secondary at base of transistor, 2 turns primary at collector of transistor). See the attached circuit diagram and the photo.

This coil stems from other experiments and I think the primary at the collector of the transistor needs a few more turns. When I find time I will play with different number of turns for the primary. My guess based on Joule Thief experience, about 20 turns will be right. Also the position of the primary on the secondary (near one end) is important.

As with the Joule Thief type circuits in general, the air core allows for higher frequencies (in the inaudible range), in my case it is about 300 kHz.

The idea of Peanutbutter29 to bias the base of the transistor with a resistor towards the positive rail works really well. It allows tuning. Without this tuning mechanism it is difficult to make the circuit swing. Tests with different lamps showed that the resistor should be near 1 K (up and down).

The circuit also works like a "exciter" (see the Avramenko plug with a blue LED in the midle of the coil).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: powercat on May 04, 2012, 11:11:45 AM
from Lidmotor
Lasersaber Super Joule Ringer 2.0 --With multiple bulbshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVHfruW22PA&feature=uploademail
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 04, 2012, 07:33:52 PM
Air core super Joule Ringer

I found an other coil from earlier experiments and could use it for a super Joule Ringer. Again I think that a lower step up rate from primary to secondary would do better (in order to transfer more current) and I will try it when I find the time.

The variable resistor between base of the transistor and positive rail allows to adjust the power consumption to a certain degree and also changes the frequency of oscillation. I set the power consumption  to the same values as in my previous experiment (6 V, 150 mA, ~ 1 Watt). Higher values are possible (e.g. 10 Volt, 300 mA,  ~ 3 W) but the brightness of the lamp was not much better (and the transistor gets hot easily).

It seems that one can transfer more power with a ferrite core transformer than with my air coils (but one has to accept the low audible frequency).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 06, 2012, 03:18:43 PM
I love the simplicity of the Joule Ringer 2.0.  The usefulness of a small 12 volt powered circuit that can light multiple lights is a powerful breakthrough.  The fact that it self adjusts to load opens up the real possibility of home lighting run off 12 volts.  Very cool.

I wondered if the one transistor would work with an air core coil.  I do a lot of work with wind power and have been building controllers using the 2N2222 because of its non linear amplification.  The power in the wind is non-linear so this transistor type works well to capture available power in very low winds.
I built a small coil with a transistor/LED that powers a 14 watt CFL.  Very simple circuit.  At 6 volts the power consumed in the LED and CFL is less than a watt.  At 9 volts 2.5 watts.  I haven't tried 12 volts yet but my guess is that with a non-lenear amplifier, power consumed will be closer to 7 watts.  The 2N222 can handle .6 amps so it may work.  The Tesla type exciter doesn't draw more power as you add lights so the amp draw is limited.

Challenge:  see if you can improve and make this more efficient without adding components!

Thank you for your work and sharing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCbTVGYnWdc&list=UUGIblCTNadascluwDyRFobQ&index=1&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCbTVGYnWdc&list=UUGIblCTNadascluwDyRFobQ&index=1&feature=plcp)


Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 06, 2012, 07:49:53 PM
Hi folks, Hi lynxsteam, thanks for sharing the lamp idea.
I happen to just finish a coil tower yesterday, though it has 24 gauge wire and is 9-1/2" tall X 3" diameter, it's a pringles chips can with metal bottom removed.
I'm going to make some tests starting with 24 gauge bifilar wrapped around bottom 1/4 of coil tower and see how it goes with your wiring setup, then try some different things just to see.
Here is a pic of the pringles chips tower.

peace love light
tyson :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 06, 2012, 07:54:05 PM
@Lynxsteam:

Nice lamp! That is how I imagined the use of a big air core coil in a lamp, it looks so retro.

I am impressed by the fact that the 2N222 does not become hot at 6V and 150 mA (I guess it also supports 9V at 250 mA for some time).

I just tried a LED (from the base of the transistor to ground) instead of the bias resistor (from the base of the transistor to the positive rail) and it did not work (besides, I am using the MJE13007 transistor). With my air core coils I seem to need the bias resistor. With the bias resistor the LED does not light up and does not make any difference.

Your trigger coil seems to do the trick. Nice idea to use three coils (primary from positive rail to collector of the transistor, trigger coil at the base and the big secondary just for the lamp). This circuit is so simple, but still there are endless variations.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 06, 2012, 08:02:08 PM
I just checked the amp draw off a typical 12/120 volt inverter to power the same 14 watt CFL.
1.875 amps or 23 watts to power the bulb. 

I also tried powering my Teslamp circuit with 12 volts.  .372 amps or 4.68 watts, not any brighter than the 9 volt.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 06, 2012, 08:06:29 PM
@SkyWatcher123:

Great, some more air coils! A retro trend is starting.

The nicety of air coils: one can build them at home rather easily and they seem to swing at a higher inaudible frequency above 100 KHz. May be the frequency comes down once really huge coils achieve an inductance comparable to ferrite core coils. But I hope that with a careful design one can build a more delicate circuit with a frequency above 100 KHz.

I have some smaller CFLs which only need 3 to 5 Watt at the 220V mains and seem to glow bright enough to be useful with 0,5 to 1 Watt on a super Joule Ringer type circuit. A retro lamp has to be dimmer to underline the 19th century atmosphere  ;) .

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 06, 2012, 09:28:17 PM
Hi folks, Hi conrad, i tried the setup, though I think the 24 gauge main tower coil is too thick of a gauge wire to get the needed high voltage for the cfl.
I have 30 gauge wire, I am going to rewind the tower coil, will take a little while to wind it again.
peace love light
tyson :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Magluvin on May 06, 2012, 10:38:10 PM
Hi folks, Hi lynxsteam, thanks for sharing the lamp idea.
I happen to just finish a coil tower yesterday, though it has 24 gauge wire and is 9-1/2" tall X 3" diameter, it's a pringles chips can with metal bottom removed.
I'm going to make some tests starting with 24 gauge bifilar wrapped around bottom 1/4 of coil tower and see how it goes with your wiring setup, then try some different things just to see.
Here is a pic of the pringles chips tower.

peace love light
tyson :)

I wonder if the foil inside the pringles tube is conductive. Might be some loss there.

Pringles pizza flavor. ;]

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Magluvin on May 07, 2012, 01:01:16 AM
Also those rings at the top and bottom of the can. They will suck the energy out before you can say "Pip"   Get rid of those and make some scores in the inside of the can length wise. it should do, but i would even try to peal that inner layer off if you can. Ive seen setups with thicker wire and fewer turns do the job. Give it a try before you unwind. ;]

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 07, 2012, 02:33:43 AM
Hi folks, Hi magluvin, lol, no, sour cream and onion, hehe.
No i checked to see if the inner part was conductive, it is not and I removed the bottom metal cap, there was none on the top.
I finished rewinding with 30 awg wire and am using speaker wire for primary, just trying different wires and types, i think its 20 or 22 gauge, stranded of course.
I had enough single speaker wire piece for 25 turns, if this does not fire up, then i will add lynxsteam's trigger wire idea.
peace love light
tyson ;D
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 07, 2012, 04:59:59 PM
A new 50 turn primary on my old 1000 turn (50 mm diameter) tower coil improved the output of the super Joule Ringer circuit.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 07, 2012, 05:58:00 PM
That is a very similar result to what I am seeing.  I only have 30 turns of primary.  I will try 50 turns.
I tried my circuit with a 2N4401 transistor and it works well.  ConradElektro, what transistor are you using?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 07, 2012, 07:34:34 PM
That is a very similar result to what I am seeing.  I only have 30 turns of primary.  I will try 50 turns.
I tried my circuit with a 2N4401 transistor and it works well.  ConradElektro, what transistor are you using?

@Lynxsteam: at the moment I use the MJE13007 transistor (because it takes a lot of abuse when testing strange coils). Others are using the 2N3055, and  I guess TIP3055 or TIP31 should work as well. I suspect the MJE13007 overheats to much in this type of circuit, so it probably is not the best choice.

The other day it came to my mind that this circuit will not fulfil the requirements of "radio regulations" because it emits a lot of stray emissions. I can light a blue LED with an Avramenco plug (no connection, just a piece of wire as an antenna and my body as virtual ground) up to 50 cm away from the coil. With 12 Volt operation the distance goes up to a meter. Some shielding will have to be done eventually. Using a ferrite core coil at e.g. 3 to   6 KHz will be not so critical in this respect, although the audible whine can be a nuisance.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 07, 2012, 07:45:24 PM
I have always used the power transistors for this type of experimenting but recently learned a lot about small signal transistors from my work with wind turbine controllers.  Whereas with power transistors being fully on or off, small signal transistors are amplifiers and are non-linear in the way they follow voltage.  So by reducing voltage we can also reduce amperage draw.  They also don't saturate the way power transistors do.
I will try your 50 turns idea later today and see how the power draw/brightness is affected.
Also I want to get back to 6 volts so I can solar charge easier.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 08, 2012, 02:45:30 PM
I updated the circuit schematic for my Tesla Lamp.  The trigger coil wasn't doing anything so I got rid of it.  Its the HV feedback off the bulb that triggers the base as in Laser Saber's JRV2.0.
I tried a power transistor, switching 3055 and the results were about the same but slightly dimmer.  I replaced the LED with a leaking diode 1N4148 and the bulb runs brighter.  Also, the primary runs the full length of the secondary.  500 turns secondary, 25 turns primary.

The nice thing about a small signal amplifier transistor like a 2N2222 or 2N4401 is the CFL will light dimly with 2 volts and get brighter as the voltage goes up.  Or conversely, as the battery runs down the circuit still gives off light. 

There is nothing spectacular about this device.  But what I like is that you can make one very simply with no exotic components and run it off a wide range of DC voltages. 

http://youtu.be/fZtHdDWrM6E (http://youtu.be/fZtHdDWrM6E)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 08, 2012, 04:43:46 PM
The nice thing about a small signal amplifier transistor like a 2N2222 or 2N4401 is the CFL will light dimly with 2 volts and get brighter as the voltage goes up.  Or conversely, as the battery runs down the circuit still gives off light. 

Thank you for showing your tests. Going through my collection of components I found the 2N4401 and the 2N2222, so I will make some tests with them.

At the moment I am building a new coil based on a plastic evacuation pipe with a diameter of 162 mm. For the secondary I will use two times 200 meter of silk insulated copper wire 0.3 mm2 (opposing coil halves, each halve about 380 turns). And for the primary I will try plastic insulated copper wire 1.5 mm2 as used for electrical installations (also opposing coil halves). The intention is to cover the secondary as much as possible with the primary, hence this massive wire.

Testing different ratios of turns (primary/secondary, the long secondary will be left unchanged because it is the more difficult to wind) I hope to be able to find a step up factor suitable for a 12 Volt power supply and a 220 Volt 9 Watt or 5 Watt LED-lamp.

The tubes of the CFLs (built in circuit removed) need at least 600 Volt. The LED lamps should work nicely with 220 Volt. The LED lamps should give the most light for a given wattage, even better than the CFLs.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: b_rads on May 08, 2012, 05:04:24 PM
I updated the circuit schematic for my Tesla Lamp.  The trigger coil wasn't doing anything so I got rid of it.  Its the HV feedback off the bulb that triggers the base as in Laser Saber's JRV2.0.

http://youtu.be/fZtHdDWrM6E (http://youtu.be/fZtHdDWrM6E)

Thank You for the updated schematic.  I attempted to replicate this last night and after watching your new video, I see some things I did wrong.  I used 1" PVC - (Outside diameter measures 1 3/8") and wound 30g magnet wire 11".  Do I need to remove some of this wire?  Also I noted that the L1 is not tightly wrapped.  Does this need to be loose?  And Finally, the CFL that I gutted (13 watt) has two wires on each side.  How does this connect?  Sorry for all the questions, this is a newbie asking.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 08, 2012, 05:47:04 PM
Nice Build!  No, you didn't do anything wrong just need to make a few adjustments.

Your taller secondary probably has a lot more wire than mine so you will probably need to increase your primary windings to 30-50 and then adjust from there.
I do this by starting with an plastic insulated wire from the positive lead around the bottom of the tower and winding up.  Keep it a little loose and wind to the top.  There will be space between turns.  Keep the end long for now so you can add more turns if needed.  Temporarily connect this ending L1 wire from the top down to the emitter of your transistor.  Use an alligator clip. 
Make sure your HV (high voltage) wire is clean of insulation a 1/2" back.  Heat and sandpaper til you get to copper. 
It matters that the correct ends off the secondary go where shown.
On the CFL twist the two leads from each tube together with the correct HV wire.  After the HV passes through the CFL it goes down and connects to the Base of the transistor with a 12" or so piece of 30 awg wire.
It matters which way the diode goes.  Make sure the positive mark is towards the base of the transistor.
Mine will start right up with 2 volts all the way up to 15 volts.
You will probably be able to light more CFL bulbs than I can, but you will push the transistor to its ma limit.  The 4401 is good for 500 ma, the 2222 is good for 680 ma.  Start testing with 6 volts and work up and down testing.  Hopefully you have a couple spare transistors because we all burn them up testing.  Once you get it working and adjusted, solder and glue gun everything tidy.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: b_rads on May 08, 2012, 08:56:28 PM
Nice Build!  No, you didn't do anything wrong just need to make a few adjustments.

Your taller secondary probably has a lot more wire than mine so you will probably need to increase your primary windings to 30-50 and then adjust from there.
I do this by starting with an plastic insulated wire from the positive lead around the bottom of the tower and winding up.  Keep it a little loose and wind to the top.  There will be space between turns.  Keep the end long for now so you can add more turns if needed.  Temporarily connect this ending L1 wire from the top down to the emitter of your transistor.  Use an alligator clip. 
Make sure your HV (high voltage) wire is clean of insulation a 1/2" back.  Heat and sandpaper til you get to copper. 
It matters that the correct ends off the secondary go where shown.
On the CFL twist the two leads from each tube together with the correct HV wire.  After the HV passes through the CFL it goes down and connects to the Base of the transistor with a 12" or so piece of 30 awg wire.
It matters which way the diode goes.  Make sure the positive mark is towards the base of the transistor.
Mine will start right up with 2 volts all the way up to 15 volts.
You will probably be able to light more CFL bulbs than I can, but you will push the transistor to its ma limit.  The 4401 is good for 500 ma, the 2222 is good for 680 ma.  Start testing with 6 volts and work up and down testing.  Hopefully you have a couple spare transistors because we all burn them up testing.  Once you get it working and adjusted, solder and glue gun everything tidy.

Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.  I have several of both transistors you mentioned.  I will attempt to get this running this evening - with some luck.  I hope to be able to run this off the USB port on several devices I have.  5 Volts off my 12 Volt battery that is solar charged would be nice, or even my laptop USB.  Correct me if I misunderstand this calculation - Volts X Amps = Watts.  6 volts X .2 Amps (200 mA) = 1.2 watts to light a 13/14 watt CFL.  If light output is similiar, this sounds pretty darn efficient to me.  Thanks again,
Brad S
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 08, 2012, 09:10:38 PM
Wouldn't it be great if we got 14 watt equivalent light with just 1.2 watts input.  No, the light will be brighter and brighter as you approach the watt rating of the CFL bulb.  What's remarkable is that this circuit can light this CFL at very low voltage or higher too.  A dimmable CFL is hard to do usually.
Lets say you run a solar charged battery and the battery is run down a bit.  The light will still come on.  Try that with an ordinary 12/120 volt inverter!

p.s. - take your time and really make sure the transistor is oriented correctly.  and that all other wires are placed correctly. You may want to mark on some paper around the transistor what goes where.  Its so easy to get something backwards and you'll blow the transistor, or it wont work.  Once you get it working notice the effect of your hand near the coil near the top vs bottom.  Hold an LED by one end and notice where it lights.  Try some AV plugs with LED or another CFL.  Fun, fun, fun !  As long as the primary goes end to end on the secondary I don't notice any tuning at all, or much difference how many turns the primary is.  That may affect volts vs amps though.  Yes, volts x amps = watts   
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: 27Bubba on May 09, 2012, 01:17:40 AM
Simply avesome job by everybody. I'm going to try do the same thing as soon as my two 16V solar panels are finished. ;D
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 09, 2012, 06:36:13 PM
Interesting thing about reverse biasing a transistor - power is 2-3 times less than rated max so you wont ever burn them up on 12 volts.  That is what I am seeing with my little 2N2222 which can handle 680 ma.  I am seeing 200-225 ma.  I don't know if it is possible but I will try paralleling two primary coils, two transistors on the one secondary.  I don't know if they will synchronize or if the bias voltage/current will be split and result in the same power output anyway, but I have the room on the coil for another primary, and I can just plug in another transistor.

LaserSaber used two primaries on his Super Joule ringer and left one unconnected.  LaserSaber also notes that the circuit self adjusts to load so maybe the transistors in parallel will both be biased equally and double power output for more load.  Or maybe this is totally unnecessary.

I am starting my DIY tutorial on YouTube tonight on how to make this single transistor air core coil lamp.  Parts for four lamps $16.  "Labor of love"
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: b_rads on May 09, 2012, 07:51:54 PM

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am starting my DIY tutorial on YouTube tonight on how to make this single transistor air core coil lamp.  Parts for four lamps $16.  "Labor of love"

I very much look forward to the DIY.  I had very little time last night to rework my replication, but what I tried did not work.  Not happy with the wire I am using for L1, and will go purchase some new wire.  My local home improvement stores only carry 20 guage bell wire and RS has 22 guage hook-up wire.  Any preference on these two choices.  Please post the link to your DIY when completed.
Thanks,
Brad S
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 09, 2012, 09:50:16 PM
Hi folks, I have not had much luck yet either with lynxsteams air coil lamp, though I did get a 13 watt gutted cfl to light up partially, think I have to make some changes to my primary-transistor combo, or use a smaller coil tower, less turns.
Though I did have fairly good success using my ferrite e-core salvaged from a TV.
I wound 6 layers of bifilar 24 awg wire for the oscillator part and almost fully fulled on top with 30 awg wire,it ran the 13 cfl, though not too bright.
Then I hooked 30 leds up to the secondary output and fried a few of the leds before disconnecting, way too much voltage for the leds in series, so I unwound many layers of 30 awg and it is brightly lighting 21 leds in series.
When using my 12 volt battery, draws 110 milliamps.
Leds are the way to go, though cfls are cheap and so are good alternative for short term emergency lighting.
Just to add, Before I wound the 30 gauge secondary, I used a 4 turn secondary of plastic insulated 18 gauge wire for powering leds in parallel and the resistance of that wire caused excessive heating of TIP42C transistor.
Then I removed the 18 gauge and used 24 gauge and it reduced the heat in the transistor to a large degree.
Though the 30 awg secondary powering leds in series seems to be the most efficient way to go, providing brighter leds for less input and less stress on the transistor.
Right now, I am using a wall transformer, rated 9 volts, 400 milliamps, which gives around 11.7 volts no load, which runs the leds pretty well, since I intend to use this as a bathroom light or hallway light, full time usage, with the idea in mind of quickly being able to switch to 12 volt battery if needed.
peace love light
tyson
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 10, 2012, 06:06:34 PM
The Lynx Joule Lamp is finicky if it isn't done right.  Since I am still experimenting I still can't say what's best.  But, this morning I wound the primary a lot more carefully on a larger diameter and amps dropped from .224 down to .093 with the same light.  But I had also reduced the turns so I am sure voltage was higher.  That was pretty neat on 6 volts to get that much light with a 1/2 watt. 
Tried it with 12 volts and fried the transistor with a flash on the bulb.  Voltage back to the base was probably exceeding the rating.
I will try to refine this setup as soon as possible so people don't get frustrated.  But here's my guess at to where it's headed.

Secondary, 8.5" long 500 turns 30 awg on 3/4" PVC (1.2" D)
Primary, 8.5" long 30 turns, solid heavy copper wire to hold shape on a 2" ID.

From there I will clip onto different turns of copper to determine best brightness on 12-14 volts without blowing the transistor.  30 turns is probably safe for 12 volts  because I know it works.  25 turns is brighter and is pushing it a little, but with the larger diameter primary it may be different.

I tried the two transistors, slightly brighter but not worth the trouble.  Better to carefully tune the circuit.

I am hoping for 12.4 volts x .200 amps = 2.48 watts to light the 40 watt equivalent bulb at half brightness (very bright).  This CFL is rated for 9 watts full brightness.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 10, 2012, 07:32:33 PM
Here is a schematic showing where components go.  Its very important that the start and ends of coils go to the right place in the circuit.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2012, 12:48:40 AM
I repaired the thread.
The last posted picture

Lynx Joule Ringer lamp circuit diagram

was somehow to big and a bit corrupted.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 20, 2012, 04:16:49 AM
By request, here is a video of "How to make the SJR2.0"  I made some mods but followed the basic idea.  You can see that you can "hotrod" the basic joule ringer with more turns, you can use a tip2N3055, use magnet wire, skip the extra primary.  The LEDs light brightly off a 9 volt, or super bright off 12 volts.  I think a 11:1 ratio is necessary to get the voltage up so that the voltage doesn't drop too much across the bulbs.  But the 10:1 ratio is very low power draw.
Running two 110 volt bulbs off a small 9 volt really demonstrates what a Joule Thief does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROwdzpbISB4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROwdzpbISB4)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 21, 2012, 04:26:20 PM
Something I should have mentioned in the video linked above.  Once the "Goop" adhesive sets up the ringing stops.  In the video the adhesive had only been on for about ten minutes.  And it will separate easily if you want to disassemble later.  The amount of adhesive actually between the E-cores is less than paper thin.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 21, 2012, 05:08:57 PM
Here is a chart for the four Joule Ringers Circuits I have made. 

SJR2.0 9:90 is an E core type using telephone wire.  Very close to what LaserSaber designed
SJR 2.0 16:200 is an E core type I made with bell wire and 30awg magnet wire
LJL 36:368 is an air core type using 12 awg primary and 20 awg magnet wire
LJL 68:680 is an aircore type using bell wire primary and 30 awg magnet wire
Bulbs were Utiltech 7.5 watt warm LED bulbs
Amps were measured into the DC leads to the primary
Input Voltage was 12 Volts
Brightness varied. Best for the Modded ECore.  Aircore types and SJR 2.0 about the same, at @60% brightness.
My conclusion?  Insulation on the wire is important.  Magnet wire is not the way to go even though it works.  This thicker insulation provides capacitance between turns which helps with the oscillation.  E-Core entraps almost all of the input energy and the single transistor efficiently converts to AC.  Very little wasted energy in this circuit.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on May 21, 2012, 06:19:38 PM
Quote
My conclusion?  Insulation on the wire is important.  Magnet wire is not the way to go even though it works.

You got it.  I did lots of trial and error coming up with this design and one thing I learned was that the insulation on the wire is very important.  I want to explore this effect more.  In the past I have seen joule ringers running lights with the base on the transistor completely disconnected. :o   If you then connect the base to a large antenna and ground one of the free primary wires you can achieve some pretty strange stuff!  I plan on posting a video showing this kind of stuff soon.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 21, 2012, 07:04:18 PM
I have two more things to try.  This may help confirm the importance of a heavier insulated secondary. 

I am going to make another air-core LJL with 20 awg bell wire on the secondary and 14 awg heavy insulated primary wire.  If there is no difference in power consumption we can attribute it to the low inductance of the air core, if there is a lower power consumption we can attribute it to the insulated secondary.

The other thing I will try is an aircore coil wound on a 1" ID x 2.5" OD, (Brooks coil).  I will use insulated bell wire, and wind the secondary with a Tesla Parallel winding on the outside of the primary and one without the parallel winding.

I may quietly try some of your magic tricks but wont still your thunder. :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 21, 2012, 09:35:12 PM
I still have not found the right core. Today I tried a toroid which I had from earlier Joule Thief experiments. I could not properly light big LED bulbs (5 Watt or 9 Watt), they blinked. Also unmodified CFLs only lit up a little. I could see a little light with incandescent bulbs, but the circuit behaved strangely.

The frequency was about 28 KHz. The circuit worked very well with a 2.5 Watt LED lamp (see the attached photo and circuit). I tried 3 turns, 6 turns and finally the 9 turns primary. For 10 to 14 Volt operation (12 Volt accumulator), the 9 turn primary worked best.

The little modifications I made to the circuit (copied from Lidmotor and Peanutbutter29) kept the transistor very cool and ensured start of oscillation at power on (down to 3 Volt).

I also tried a transformer core, but it must be a HF transformer core, because the frequency was about 110 KHz. Also, only the 2.5 Watt LED lamp worked nicely. I had the core in my collection since many years and do not know its specification any more.

It seems I need a core with a higher inductance to match the performance I see from Lasersaber's or Lynsteam's experiments. I guess the frequency has to go down to a few KHz and power transfer (through the transformer) up to at least 4 Watt in order to make stronger LED lamps and unmodified CFLs work.

I did not succeed to achieve a low frequency and high power transfer with air cores, therefore I am now exploring ferrite cores and toroids. It is difficult to get the US-cores and US-transformers in Europe, so I look for good replacements available over here.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 21, 2012, 11:03:13 PM
I think I found a core comparable to Lasersaber's core:

Lasersaber recommends: http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerPotC/FerPotC-2.html (http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerPotC/FerPotC-2.html)

I found: http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/etd54-28-19-3c90/core-half-etd54-3c90/dp/3056429 (http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/etd54-28-19-3c90/core-half-etd54-3c90/dp/3056429) (two required)
             http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/cph-etd54-1s-22p/bobbin-etd54-1-section-22pin/dp/137029 (http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/cph-etd54-1s-22p/bobbin-etd54-1-section-22pin/dp/137029) (bobbin)
             http://at.farnell.com/epcos/b66396a2000x/clip-etd54/dp/1422754 (http://at.farnell.com/epcos/b66396a2000x/clip-etd54/dp/1422754) (clip)

May be some knowledgeable people could comment?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 21, 2012, 11:08:54 PM
Conrad,

Don't restrict yourself with that Torroid.  36:9 (4:1 ratio) turns isn't what LaserSaber suggested.  Before giving up on that Torroid, be bold and try 90:9, or 100:10 turns.  Yes, that will be a lot of wire, but give it a try.  That Torroid you have can handle high frequency.  And if it is a gapped Torroid it will be even better.  The black ones wont work.

You might try the circuit with just the transistor and delete the other components for now.  My guess is with another try you will be pleased.  Don't over think it, it is so easy, just a simple 10:1 ratio on an aircore, ferrite core, torroid and the one transistor.  The heavy insulated wire is important.

With the turns ratio 10:1 you wont light CFL bulbs and especially if they are left unmodified.  The 10:1 ratio works well for LED bulbs.

Try it one more time!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 21, 2012, 11:30:04 PM
@Lynxsteam:
 
Thank you for the reply. Trying one more time is no problem.
 
My reasoning:
 
The toroid (Ferrite material 3E27) can handle the high frequency, but some unmodified LED-lamps (which I bought) can not handle high frequency and the unmodified CFLs can not handle it either.
 
The right Ferrite material is 3C90 or 3C85, and its high inductance will cause a low frequency (around 1 KHz, up to 3 KHz).

Bigger laminated iron core transformers will also cause a low frequency (because of their high inductance).
 
But I might be wrong, trial and error is better than "over thinking".
 
Greetings, Conrad
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 22, 2012, 04:39:04 AM
I wanted to report back on my experiments.

The aircore LJL with heavy insulated secondary made no difference.  It was actually a bit worse because I couldn't get as many turns in the same space.  The bulb is very bright but amp draw is slightly higher. 
The aircore coil with Tesla Parallel windings for the secondary was even worse.  Very high amp draw, very bright.
I rewound my second Super Joule Ringer e-core with the right bell wire and proper turns.  Very bright bulb and 400 ma.  This is slightly higher amp draw than my first SJR2.0 but brightness is superb.
Is this circuit also back charging the source battery between pulses with DC component?  Are we reusing current through the circuit?  Is there a reverberating bounce of magnetic field?  Something isn't right that we are seeing this many watts of work with so little input.

Below is an updated chart showing the 2nd Super Joule Ringer 2.0 with 22:220 turns of telephone wire 24 awg.  The bulb brightness is very good up to three bulbs.  The 4th bulb causes the brightness to drop but so does the amp draw.  I didn't chart the newer LJL aircores, because without lumens/lux it doesn't mean much.  What i find interesting is that with the aircore the amp draw increases with each bulb, whereas with the SJR 2.0 the amp draw rises and plateaus.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 22, 2012, 07:43:15 AM
I wanted to report back on my experiments.

The aircore LJL with heavy insulated secondary made no difference.  It was actually a bit worse because I couldn't get as many turns in the same space.  The bulb is very bright but amp draw is slightly higher. 
The aircore coil with Tesla Parallel windings for the secondary was even worse.  Very high amp draw, very bright.
I rewound my second Super Joule Ringer e-core with the right bell wire and proper turns.  Very bright bulb and 400 ma.  This is slightly higher amp draw than my first SJR2.0 but brightness is superb.
Is this circuit also back charging the source battery between pulses with DC component?  Are we reusing current through the circuit?  Is there a reverberating bounce of magnetic field?  Something isn't right that we are seeing this many watts of work with so little input.

Below is an updated chart showing the 2nd Super Joule Ringer 2.0 with 22:220 turns of telephone wire 24 awg.  The bulb brightness is very good up to three bulbs.  The 4th bulb causes the brightness to drop but so does the amp draw.  I didn't chart the newer LJL aircores, because without lumens/lux it doesn't mean much.  What i find interesting is that with the aircore the amp draw increases with each bulb, whereas with the SJR 2.0 the amp draw rises and plateaus.

Wanted to express my appreciation for all this work, Lynxsteam.   The graph is particularly instructive.

Well done!!

ADDED:

Now if I may request detail:
Quote
Below is an updated chart showing the 2nd Super Joule Ringer 2.0 with 22:220 turns of telephone wire 24 awg.

Single or double -- "telephone" wire?  solid or stranded?  Would you recommend 24 awg, rather than a thicker wire?  for both secondary and primary?Did you use the cores recommended by Lasersaber, from Nebraska I think, or some other E-core?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 22, 2012, 10:42:33 AM
I am using an EA-77-625 Ferrite E-Core out of a power supply.  I had two of these and they are rated for 200 watts.  The wire I am using for the primary and the secondary is 24 gauge solid copper telephone wire scavenged from some 6 pair telephone cable.  Bell wire is a little too thick and stiff for these smaller E-Cores.

The dimensions on the E-Core are 1-11/16" x .625"  The Bobbin will accept about 259 turns total of insulated 24 awg wire if you are really careful winding.  I used 22 turns on the primary, 220 on the secondary and had a little room to spare.

On this second unit I used the pair of primary wires leaving one of the two disconnected. 

These units will light all 6 LED bulbs nicely with no noise and no heat. 3-4 Bulbs brightly, 6 bulbs at 60%.  One transistor is all you need.  There is no adjustment necessary from 1 bulb to 6.

EA-77-625
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lasersaber on May 22, 2012, 01:41:38 PM
Quote
What i find interesting is that with the aircore the amp draw increases with each bulb, whereas with the SJR 2.0 the amp draw rises and plateaus.

This is right in line with my findings.  The only way I could find to light up ten LED bulbs super bright on low current as I show in my video was to use my largest ferrite E core and bell wire.  I think the phone wire would be better suited to the smaller E core that I give the link to on laserhacker.com.  I would really like to try a super huge ferrite E core with a much larger gauge heavy insulated wire.  I think the results would be amazing!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: powercat on May 22, 2012, 04:07:36 PM
Lidmotor
LED Light testing at 3 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA8_aO9rVDA&feature=uploademail
Title: So Simple - A Caveman Can Do It!
Post by: b_rads on May 22, 2012, 05:59:52 PM
In my feeble attempt to replicate Lasersaber’s SJR, I did everything wrong and it still worked.  While it did not work well, it did light 2 120VAC LED’s.  The E-Core transformer was way too small.  It was one salvaged from some junk electronic (printer I think).  I used stranded CAT-5e wire and was only able to get 6 winds primary and 60 winds secondary and was barely able to close the transformer.  I connected it as per Lasersaber’s diagram posted on his website and it fired right off using a Lights of America 2 watt bulb running very bright.  Added a FEIT 1.2 watt bulb and both bulbs lit, the FEIT was very dim though.  Connected only the FEIT and it was very bright when ran alone.  The source was 12 volts and the current draw was ½ Amp, the 2n3055 ran very warm.  I will not try this one again until I can get a better suited core and the correct wire.
 
For lighting a single LED bulb, it is hard to beat the circuit posted by Xee2.  This circuit uses a RadioShack transformer, 1 transistor, 1 resistor, and 1 cap.  I have this connected to the USB port on my laptop and power it up several times a week for the last 5 months.  At 5 volts it only uses about 150 mA and runs cool.  I have the transistor on a heat sink, but it is not required.  It runs very well on AA battery as well.  This does not handle multiple bulbs very well though.  Here is a video of that build.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyiaYaZqtAs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyiaYaZqtAs)
 
On my AIR CORE – Lynx Joule Lamp, I have not changed anything until I get my light meter in to check bulb brightness.  I very much like the CFL’s for light distribution over the LED’s even though they might not be as environmentally friendly, plus CFL’s are very cheap in comparison to LED’s.  For fun, you might try this, suspend a CFL in a clear plastic jar or glass canning jar and fill with mineral oil.  The effect is really cool.  I would only do this on a modified bulb though.
 
BTW: thanks Lasersaber for the “Low Power Joule Ringer”.  I have replicated this and have a couple running at the moment.  They have been running the light 24/7 for over a month now on an AA battery.  In the picture below, the black project box holds this circuit.
 
Brad S  :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 22, 2012, 06:21:42 PM
LaserSaber:  How big an E-Core would you like?  What would be your goal for performance? Are you looking to drop power vs light output or just light more bulbs? 

Incidentally, I have a very large Ferrite Torroid that weighs 3-4 Lbs.  Its 4.5" D x 1.5" thick.  I believe its gapped around the circumference with a plastic piece between two Torroids.  I'll see what it can do.

I never knew how much useful junk was in my shop!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 23, 2012, 04:35:43 AM
The best way to describe this Joule Ringer is

Ladies and Gentlemen - KONG

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: b_rads on May 23, 2012, 03:56:51 PM
 ;D  OK - got my aircore LJL to light LED's.  Using 30g magnet wire for a length of 8" and 2 conductor 24g solid speaker wire.  On the primary I wrapped 60 turns which covered the entire secondary.  I had to connect the end of the first conductor to the beginning of the second conductor to get my current draw to tolerable limits.  This gives me 120 turns on the primary for a current draw of 250mA and lit up 2 LED's very well. 
 
 ???  Has anyone tried this?  It seems everyone has been testing with matching bulbs.  I connected a 0.4w LED night light to the circuit and the current draw jumps up way over 1 Amp.  With or without other LED's on the load.  Anyone have any idea why this happens and does this happen on the ferrite core builds?
 
Brad S
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 23, 2012, 05:50:19 PM
Great that you got it running!  Nice amp draw too!  I'll have to try the increased turns on the primary.  More turns definitely drops the amp draw on the aircore.

No I haven't seen the problem with mixed LED bulbs on an aircore.  Definitely mixing CFL or tubes and LED bulbs doesn't work.  There may be some circuitry in the Nite Lite that is dropping voltage which would probably send amp draw up. 

Easy fix - don't use the Nite Lite. :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 23, 2012, 06:11:41 PM
The best way to describe this Joule Ringer is

Ladies and Gentlemen - KONG

KONG -- lol...  Can you tell us about this sucker, and what kind of power draw you found (compared with your smaller cores)?

I have been thinking along similar (toroidal) lines, I guess -- yesterday I used a high-permeability core, wound in bifilar mode 75 turns for the secondary. (I actually wound this some months ago for another purpose).  I added 8 turns bell wire for the primary to give the approx 10:1 ratio.

I then built the simple Lasersaber 2.0 circuit also used by Lynx, with a 9.5W LED lamp.  Would not light up.  I also built the Lidmotor circuit shown in the photo, with added diagnostic circuitry.  The "white" LED lights up showing current to the base, but the LED would not light up...
Hmmmm.... 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 23, 2012, 07:03:39 PM
If you are using a Torroid, that is a very different animal.

Try a couple of things:
1.  Switch leads on the primary. + and C switch, nothing else
2.  Try cutting a little insulation at every turn on the primary where you can poke into it with a probe.  10:1 doesn't work so well with Torroids.  You may find you hit resonance with fewer turns.  Back off a turn (increase by one turn) and then dial in with your potentiometer for best amp draw.

"Kong" is pretty cool.  It does ring.  Left alone (single component transistor) it puts out 50 watts and plateaus.  I don't think I would ever want to run 20 LED bulbs so I am tinkering to see if I can calm it down with capacitors, and an adjustable base tie.  I got it to dimly light one LED bulb on 40 ma.  I have to go shopping for the right resistors and pot.  I will probably try Slider's 3 color LED indicator.  Torroid Joule Thiefs have been exhaustively looked at, I am just doing this to try the one transistor and to see how a large Torroid behaves.  It is not something to replicate because it is a $377 torroid transformer new.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: b_rads on May 24, 2012, 04:33:28 PM
 :)   My Lux Meter arrived yesterday and I now have three different setups to test.  The LJL with multiple taps for CFL’s, the LJL with speaker wire for LED’s, and a third setup which I will describe.  Have not made the box yet to test the bulbs,  
The third setup can be seen below.  I found a transformer that I had salvaged from a speaker system some time back.  This was a Harman/kardon 10 year old system that went bad.  The transformer is a 120VAC 60Hz input with 18VAC 3A output.  This setup is very sensitive to get started, but when it does, it performs very well.  I placed a string of 50 LED’s rated at 4.8 watts, a LOA rated at 2 watts, and a FEIT Bathroom and Vanity rated at 1.2 watts on the circuit for a total of 8 watts load.  Running off a 12 Volt battery, the current draw was 240mA resulting in 2.88 watts.  Using my new Lux Meter I tested the LOA on AC and the meter showed 660.  Running off the circuit the meter showed 1450.  Those numbers are approximations since the numbers were bouncing around a bit.  With these readings being totally unexpected, I performed the test a second time and the results confirmed the first test.
 
Brad S
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 24, 2012, 07:28:17 PM
:)   My Lux Meter arrived yesterday and I now have three different setups to test.  The LJL with multiple taps for CFL’s, the LJL with speaker wire for LED’s, and a third setup which I will describe.  Have not made the box yet to test the bulbs, 
The third setup can be seen below.  I found a transformer that I had salvaged from a speaker system some time back.  This was a Harman/kardon 10 year old system that went bad.  The transformer is a 120VAC 60Hz input with 18VAC 3A output.  This setup is very sensitive to get started, but when it does, it performs very well.  I placed a string of 50 LED’s rated at 4.8 watts, a LOA rated at 2 watts, and a FEIT Bathroom and Vanity rated at 1.2 watts on the circuit for a total of 8 watts load.  Running off a 12 Volt battery, the current draw was 240mA resulting in 2.88 watts. Using my new Lux Meter I tested the LOA on AC and the meter showed 660.  Running off the circuit the meter showed 1450.  Those numbers are approximations since the numbers were bouncing around a bit.  With these readings being totally unexpected, I performed the test a second time and the results confirmed the first test.
 
Brad S

Isn't it great to have actual NUMBERS MEASURED -- 1450 lux with the SJR and 600 lux with the grid...   Exciting-- however, I ask that you PLEASE PUT THE LUX METER AND THE BULB(S) IN A FIXED POSITION IN A FOIL-LINED "LIGHT BOX". 

In this way, you can be sure that the meter and bulb do not shift around when taking measurements.  Also, you can put in known bulbs, known Lumens output, and calibrate your light-box (as described earlier in this thread), getting Lumens/Lux conversion factor for your box.  THEN you can calculate Lumens (out)/ Watts (in).
Photo of my light box, as an example, is shown earlier in the thread.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 24, 2012, 08:37:09 PM
   LynxSteam was kind to send me one of his air-coils for testing, with the Lasersaber 2.0 circuit; see photo.  Thanks, Lynxsteam!!!  Primary has 34 windings, secondary has 368 windings.    I used the light box for the tests, described earlier.

       Photo also shows the DSO waveform when a 13W CFL bulb was the load (left) -- approx sinusoidal.  The right waveforme is for a 3.5 W LED bulb -- almost a square wave.  So the load clearly changes the waveform; and also the frequency of the output signal, as shown in the table.

   Gotta run -- please study the table and ask questions as you wish.  Shows the versatility and ease-of-use of the light box.  Note that I'm only getting about 23 Lumens (out)/ Watt (in) max with this  -- not bad for an air core, IMO.  These LED lamps running on the grid-AC put out about 60 Lumens/Watt.      More runs coming!   
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 24, 2012, 10:42:57 PM
I got an E-Core transformer (FERROXCUBE ETD49/25/16-3C90 FERRITE CORE, Farnell order code 3056417) which oscillates at about 8 KHz with the circuit below. The little circuit modifications help to start the oscillations and keep the transistor cool.

The 8 KHz still seem to be too high because some lamps perform poorly, others perform really well. This depends I guess on the internal circuit of the lamp.

I have some CFLs (unmodified) which light up very bright with less power consumption as specified by the manufacture at 220V. Some other CFLs I have only light up when they consume more than specified.

Only my small LED lamps (0.8 Watt, 1 Watt and 2.5 Watt) perform very well but only at 6 Volt (12 Volt would blow them up), they are very bright at about 70% of their specified power consumption (of course my judgement by eyesight is inaccurate). But the two big LED lamps (5 Watt and 9 Watt) need more power than specified.

Also incandescent lamps light a little (red glow) and consume much less than specified (about 6 Watt) but give almost no light, they just become hot.

I attribute the high power consumption of some CFLs and some LED lamps to the still too high frequency of about 8 KHz (which does not agree with the internal circuit of some lamps). If you look at the table posted by LynxSteam, you also see that some lamps perform poorly probably because the frequency of his air core is 30 KHz to 100 KHz.

So, how can I bring down the frequency of my E-Core transformer? How do I have to modify the circuit? Capacitors, where?

The screeching is just awful, with all lamps at 12 Volt (only with the little LED lamps at 6 Volt I hear nothing).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Number Crunch Time
Post by: b_rads on May 25, 2012, 04:56:23 AM
Professor - here goes!  I recorded some numbers and I hope you can make some sense of them.  First let me say that the transformer reguired the 4.8 watt LED string connected to get it to run.  It runs in the 240 to 280mA range for a while and then it jumped to 450mA.  I got my readings when it was at 450.  All readings used 12 Volt source.
 
1.2 watt FEIT rated at 74 Lumens.
AC Power - 1030 Lux
AirCore LJL - 580 mA - 1672 Lux
Torid Transformer - 450 mA - 2290 Lux
 
2.0 watt LOA rated at 110 Lumens
AC Power - 1370 Lux
AirCore LJL - 620 mA - 1595 Lux
Torid Transformer - 450 mA - 2090 Lux
 
Both Bulbs Together
AC Power - 2620 Lux
AirCore LJL - 640 mA - 1824 Lux
Torid Transformer - 480 mA - 2480 Lux
 
BTW - I now understand the importance of the light box, Thanks!
Brad S   :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 25, 2012, 04:58:15 AM
ConradElektro

It looks like you setup that E-Core exactly as Laser Saber specified, although his drawing shows 20:200 turns I think.  My latest has 16:160 turns.  I use just a tiny amount of adhesive between the E-Cores.  Its called "Shoe Goop" or just "Goop" brand.  It is flexible when set up, but very tough adhesive.  I think even double sided tape would work.  You just need something to cushion the chattering of the two cores together.

As for amp draw.  I am finding that more total turns (total of secondary and primary) lowers amp draw.  More turns equals more induction.  I am starting to wonder with my air-cores if turns ratio even matters.  I doubled the primary turns on my latest air-core and the bulbs still light nicely and the amp draw dropped by half.  So what happens if I double primary turns again?  We are not transforming AC/AC in a ratio.  This is a flyback transformer, so whatever AC voltage we generate the High Voltage spikes from flyback will ride on that waveform.

JouleSeeker's Lux/lumens findings vs watts input matches what I saw with the first prototype.  Now I am finding that I can drop the amps dramatically by increasing primary turns.

The other thing I find with the E-Cores and AirCores s that you wont see the full efficiency until you add more bulbs.  The air-core gets more and more impressive as you add bulbs.  One bulb takes 400 ma, 2 bulbs 500 ma.  Each added bulb only consumes 100 ma more.  The E-Core is a little different.  It will consume only about 400 ma and little more as you add more bulbs.  So a one bulb test doesn't tell the whole story on these devices.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 25, 2012, 07:32:34 AM
Great comments.  Thanks Lynxsteam -- and that light box of yours is LOOKING GREAT, Brad! I see you're using the Lux meter I recommended also; same as I use.    It was easy to build, huh?

 Fast calibration -- run with the full set of bulbs (1 but Lynx and Peanutbutter say use more, like four or SIX) in place in the light box, using the GRID AC.  Add up the rated lumens for THESE bulbs, and measure the LUX on your meter; divide to get the { rated-Lumens/observed-Lux ratio} for your light box (and meter).    This is your calibration factor.
 
 Then, without moving any bulbs, power the bulbs up using the blocking oscillator (whatever one wants to call it!  ;) ) -- and measure the Lux output!   Multiply by the Lm/Lux-ratio above, and this gives the Lumens output.
 Finally, divide Lumens by Watts input -- voila, Lm/W!  Then we can make comparisons and measure our progress to GREATER and greater Lm/W...
 


 Now -- I've made some progress today after the "honey-do's" were done.
The best I could do this morning was about 23 Lm/W.  Well, I managed to double that.  Here's how.
 
 First, I finally rec'd a couple of high-efficiency bulbs I'd ordered, and these run at about 1 W using the mains and put out nearly 80 Lumens in the light box -- 80 Lm/W, which is great! 
So I used this bulb, and immediately the yield with the AIR core SJR-2.0 jumped up to about 40 Lm/ W. I varied the voltage; here is near the optimum with changing only the bulb from previous runs this morning:
 
 9V in; 0.8 A, so 7.2 W in.
 3700 Lux in the light box, times 0.08 (my calibration-conversion factor for this box) = 296 Lumens.
 296Lm/7.2W = 41 Lm/W -- not bad.

 PS -- freq = 157 KHz; V-rms output = 104 V with this load.


Note: at 12V, I get just 29 Lm/W...  So there is some tuning associated with varying the voltage.  A broad maximum -- from 7V to 9V input, the yield stays near 40 Lm/W.
 
 OH -- note that the bulb says it is for 220V, 50 Hz -- but it works just fine with the above conditions!  Someone asked about that; I think it was Jules.  Here's the bulb I'd now recommend, Jules:
 Cheap E27 1.5W 36 LED 252LM White Light LED Light Bulb AC180~240V;50HZ,5500~6000K | Everbuying.com (http://www.everbuying.com/product40140.html)
 -- and only $8.93 each if you buy 2... 
 It does not put out the Lm/W advertised on-line, but at about 80 Lm/W measured in my light box, it is better than other LED bulbs I've tested (typically 55-65 Lm/W).
 
 Next, I tried a trick used by Lynx earlier, I compressed the primary winding down to about 3" along the base of the coil -- so it covers now maybe 1/4 of the secondary coil... starting to look like a Tesla coil now.
 
 Results -- my best to date -- follow:
 9V in; 0.33 A, so 3 W in.
 1990 Lux in the light box, times 0.08 (my calibration-conversion factor for this box) = 159 Lumens.
 
 159Lm/3W = 53 Lm/W
-- a big improvement from 23 max this morning! 
 
 PS -- freq = 178 KHz; V-rms output = 84 V with this new bulb and the primary coil concentrated at the bottom.
 
 Whew!    (PS -- I'm not claiming OU at this stage!!)
Title: Re: Number Crunch Time
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 25, 2012, 08:16:44 AM
My calculations in bold:

Professor - here goes!  I recorded some numbers and I hope you can make some sense of them.  First let me say that the transformer reguired the 4.8 watt LED string connected to get it to run.  It runs in the 240 to 280mA range for a while and then it jumped to 450mA.  I got my readings when it was at 450.  All readings used 12 Volt source.
 
1.2 watt FEIT rated at 74 Lumens.
AC Power - 1030 Lux
  calibration factor:  74/1030 = 0.072

 
2.0 watt LOA rated at 110 Lumens
AC Power - 1370 Lux
  calibration factor:  110/1370 = 0.08; average calibration factor is 0.076.  With more bulbs of known Lumens, you could improve the accuracy...  0.076 is close enough for now -- you evidently have about the same conditions as in my box, factor = 0.080 in mine.Now, for the tests with the Lynx-type air core SJR:

AirCore LJL - 580 mA - 1672 Lux
  1672 * 0.076 = 127 Lm;  127/7 W = 18.  (about what I found this morning with the air core SJR, 20 -- good agreement actually)
Torid Transformer - 450 mA - 2290 Lux
  2290 * 0.076 = 174 / 12*0.45 = 174/5.4 = 32 Lm/W -- improving!


AirCore LJL - 620 mA - 1595 Lux
  121 Lm/ 7.4W = 16 Lm/W
Torid Transformer - 450 mA - 2090 Lux
  159 Lm/5.4 = 29 Lm/W
 
Both Bulbs Together
AC Power - 2620 Lux  (but I will use the same factor; tired, after midnight )
   AirCore LJL - 640 mA - 1824 Lux
1824 * .076 = 139 Lm   139/ 7.7W = 18 Lm/W
Torid Transformer - 480 mA - 2480 Lux
   188 Lm / 5.8 = 32 Lm/W.

 
BTW - I now understand the importance of the light box, Thanks!
Brad S   :)


You're most welcome!

Great progress and tests, Brad!  thanks for this work and for recording the numbers.  Now -- note that the "record" sits at 53 Lm/W (see post above) for actually measured Lumens using a calibrated box...I think you will get there and past soon.   :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 25, 2012, 02:19:15 PM
ConradElektro

It looks like you set up that E-Core exactly as Laser Saber specified, although his drawing shows 20:200 turns I think.  My latest has 16:160 turns.  I use just a tiny amount of adhesive between the E-Cores.  Its called "Shoe Goop" or just "Goop" brand.  It is flexible when set up, but very tough adhesive.  I think even double sided tape would work.  You just need something to cushion the chattering of the two cores together.

As for amp draw.  I am finding that more total turns (total of secondary and primary) lowers amp draw.  More turns equals more induction.  I am starting to wonder with my air-cores if turns ratio even matters.  I doubled the primary turns on my latest air-core and the bulbs still light nicely and the amp draw dropped by half.  So what happens if I double primary turns again?  We are not transforming AC/AC in a ratio.  This is a flyback transformer, so whatever AC voltage we generate the High Voltage spikes from flyback will ride on that waveform.

JouleSeeker's Lux/lumens findings vs watts input matches what I saw with the first prototype.  Now I am finding that I can drop the amps dramatically by increasing primary turns.

The other thing I find with the E-Cores and AirCores s that you wont see the full efficiency until you add more bulbs.  The air-core gets more and more impressive as you add bulbs.  One bulb takes 400 ma, 2 bulbs 500 ma.  Each added bulb only consumes 100 ma more.  The E-Core is a little different.  It will consume only about 400 ma and little more as you add more bulbs.  So a one bulb test doesn't tell the whole story on these devices.

@Lynxsteam

Thank you for the comments, that helps. The glue is a good idea, I have some which hardens into a rubber like substance.

My E-core has a primary of 2 wires wound in parallel with 10 turns and a secondary of 100 turns (all bell wire). So, using just one wire of the primary (the other stays unconnected) results in a step up ratio of 1:10. My last post reported the results with this 1:10 ratio.

Today I connected the two primary wires in series which results in a step up ration of 20:100 = 1:5. This reduced the power draw of the big 9 Watt LED lamp almost by halve (at 12 V was ~1.3 A and is now ~ 0.7 A).

Other lamps are showing some difficulties with the 20:100 = 1:5 ratio:

The 5 W LED lamp needs 18 Volt to start, but I then can reduce to 13 Volt 0.4 A. (also a reduction of Amp draw).

The (unmodified) CFLs need 18V to 20V to start up, but can then be reduced to 12 Volt and also draw significantly less.

I will try 20:200 step up by rewinding the secondary with thinner enamelled copper wire (otherwise 200 turns will not fit on the bobbin). I also will hook up something to connect more light bulbs in a safe way.

My E-Core:
http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/etd49-25-16-3c90/ferrite-core-half-etd49-3c90/dp/3056417 (http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/etd49-25-16-3c90/ferrite-core-half-etd49-3c90/dp/3056417)
http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/cli-etd49/ferritringkern-klammer/dp/105778 (http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/cli-etd49/ferritringkern-klammer/dp/105778)
http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/cph-etd49-1s-20p/bobbin-etd49-1-section-20pin/dp/3056338 (http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/cph-etd49-1s-20p/bobbin-etd49-1-section-20pin/dp/3056338)

In the depth of my house I found "Core-Zilla" hiding in a dark corner for decades. It stems from a process-computer power supply (more than 1 KW) from the 1970-ies. We will see what I can do with it. Unfortunately the bobbins are lost, I have to build two from cardboard or acrylic or a combination of.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 25, 2012, 02:53:42 PM
This is fantastic teamwork for people who have never met!  We are discovering and learning on a daily basis and putting the knowledge to work.

ConradElektro, thanks for confirming what I am seeing with increasing the primary turns.  I don't even bother with fluorescents now.  But as you have found they can be used with a high startup voltage.  But that requires some complication.  I am designing for the average person who doesn't want to be bothered with taking CFLs apart.

Can I suggest that we (JouleSeeker) start a new thread in regards to the Light Box testing?  Your work is very interesting and will get lost in everyone's different Joule Ringers.  Its definitely a new and important Phase in the development of two different setups, perhaps three.  SJR 2.0, LJL, and Torroid transformers.

Today I will make another LJL of the same size, but with 14 awg primary the full length of the secondary with multiple tap points.  My hunch is power draw can come down further with the AirCore and Induction can stay high.

Lastly, if anyone is out there, can someone diagram the current flow in the SJR 2.0 circuit with just one transistor?  It seems that the Flyback has to push back through the source battery between pulses.  Its like the battery is in the LC circuit getting charged between pulses.  Is this correct?  I would be happy to animate the circuit on YouTube if someone could diagram the action.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 25, 2012, 04:37:43 PM
This is fantastic teamwork for people who have never met!  We are discovering and learning on a daily basis and putting the knowledge to work.

ConradElektro, thanks for confirming what I am seeing with increasing the primary turns.  I don't even bother with fluorescents now.  But as you have found they can be used with a high startup voltage.  But that requires some complication.  I am designing for the average person who doesn't want to be bothered with taking CFLs apart.

Can I suggest that we (JouleSeeker) start a new thread in regards to the Light Box testing?  Your work is very interesting and will get lost in everyone's different Joule Ringers.  Its definitely a new and important Phase in the development of two different setups, perhaps three.  SJR 2.0, LJL, and Torroid transformers.
[snip]


  Thanks for the encouragement, Lynxsteam - however, would rather not "proliferate threads" as this makes it difficult to follow the progress, with too many threads.  Already, I try to keep up with several...  and there is a parallel thread to this one at EF.

@all:  note that the Lux meter that Brad and I are using is available now at Amazon (Prime) for only $13.30 -- a big savings.
http://www.amazon.com/Light-Meter-LX1010B-Luxmeter-display/dp/B000JWUT6O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337954180&sr=8-1
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: b_rads on May 25, 2012, 05:41:55 PM
This is fantastic teamwork for people who have never met!  We are discovering and learning on a daily basis and putting the knowledge to work.

Lynxsteam - you are preaching to the choir, I could not agree more.  As you have said, this is just so darn much fun.  Regret that I do not have more time to devote to this project.
 
ConradElektro - connecting those 2 primaries in series really does lower the current draw.  I think it might be time to replace my transistor as my current levels are jumping around some without changing anything.  I have really abused that tranny with testing and I want to get back to the lower current draw.
 
JouleSeeker - I cannot thank you enough for sorting out my numbers for me.  I am thrilled that we see similiar results.  For all, cannot stress enough the importance of the light box.  Without confirmation from the Professor on this, everything else is speculative.
 
Afterthought - when making your light box, choose a power strip that does not have the on button indicator light.  I replaced mine and it did make a small difference.
 
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on May 25, 2012, 07:53:02 PM
   
   Guys: 
   Thanks to all for your great tests. It certainly saves the rest of us all the time to go through the same experimental process. Especially when using several bulbs, this has already saved much of the normal output consumption and expense. And makes the use of smaller solar panels and much cheaper storage batteries now very feasible to many people anywhere in the world.
   The question that I have is: Has anyone tried to place the 10 or so primary windings over on the outside of any preexisting windings on already wound E-cores? As possibly by doing so, some of the used already wound E-cores can be made to be used, as they come, with only a little modification to their original windings or connection points.
  Is this even possible???
                                      NickZ
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 26, 2012, 03:12:48 PM
I did some more tests and some scope shots (see attached picture).

What I think is happening:  The power supply tries to prohibit a current feedback from the circuit. So, it will be better to use a battery instead of a power supply, because the power supply becomes part of the circuit and influences it (by attempting to regulate voltage).

I put some double sided sticky tape between the halves of the E-Core and it practically eliminated the screeching (and one can pull the Ferrite halves apart when needed, which would be difficult when glue is used).

The tests and scope shots where done at 12 Volt with a 9 Watt unmodified LED lamp for 110V - 240V.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 26, 2012, 03:41:49 PM
Conradelektro - I am glad the double sided tape worked for you.  The screeching isn't tolerable, is it?  And you are right you can take apart while experimenting.  I glued mine because I was happy with performance and I can't get more wire in.  Try a second layer of tape and it might just quiet down.  I know in some applications gapped E-Cores are specified and that is about what we get when we separate the E-Cores with tape or glue.

Nick - I like your idea about using "found" E cores but how will you know what you have for turns.  I suppose you could just give it a try.  I thought it was easier to just cut off all the windings and start new.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on May 26, 2012, 03:59:38 PM
   Conradelektro and All:
   I've just seen a video (I forget which one it was now) where one half of the E-core was pulled away from the other half slightly, and the light got brighter yet, and noise stopped, entirely. But, the wattage and draw went up somewhat as a result. So, for higher light output that can be tried, especially if the draw is not much of a concern, as when using solar as a source.

  Thanks for the tip on using tape in between the two halves of the E-core. 
  Someone also mentioned to dip the whole core into varnish, or to use E-poxy glue.
That noise would not be acceptable to me, as it would drive me nuts, and I just would not be able to handle it.
  Thanks again, and good luck with your tests.
                                                                                                                   
   NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on May 26, 2012, 04:56:30 PM
  Slider has even used a regular AC wall adapter as a Joule Ringer transformer, and has made them work, as they come. So, I thought that used E-cores can also be made to work,  as they come,  or possibly just winding the additional primary on the outside, as is sometimes done with axial inductors.  It may be better to remove the original windings, but not easier.
  Some E-cores are only inductors, and not transformers. I have several bigger E-cores also that are transformers.  More and more transformers are been made from the ferrite E-cores now.
   Testing the primary turn ratios can be done by leaving longer wire ends not wound, and adding or removing winds as needed, a couple at a time. That's where the "light box"  would come in handy.
  Slider, just uses a toilet paper tube (a paper towel tube would also work) as a light box, to put the smaller 1 to 2.5 watt light bulbs into, and a small solar cell (like the ones that come on calculators) on the other end of the tube, to measure the lights voltage given off by the different bulbs, or circuits being tested.  A regular volt meter would also work to see the output. A bigger version of that idea would also work, for the larger bulbs.
Not as scientific, but No costs are involved.   
 In my case, just my eyes work well enough for me. If I can't tell the difference in bulb intensity, I don't really care.
                                                                             
  Nick
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 26, 2012, 06:48:54 PM
The transistor matters, use 2N3055

Finally I gave up the MJE13007 and used the 2N3055 (yes, I am stubborn). This was an important step, because the 2N3055 works without any additional components. A 100K resistor between the base of the transistor and the positive rail helps sometimes to start up oscillation.

I am still using my E-Core from FERROXCUBE ETD49/25/16-3C90 with 20 turn primary (2 parallel wires wound in 10 turns and then connected in series) and a 100 turn secondary, which results in a 2:5 step up ratio.

This set up (see the attached picture) produces reasonable results with a 5W and 2.5W LED lamp. My 9W LED lamp and various unmodified CFLs do not work.

When I use a 1:10 step up ratio with the 2N3055, all lamps I have work (LEDs, unmodified CFLs) but the power draw is very high, about double as should be (double as specified by the manufacturer of the lamp).

What I conclude from this:

1) Use the 2N3055 transistor (very important, no other components needed; in case you want to be super clever, use a 100K resistor between base of transistor and positive rail)

2) The windings on my E-Core are not right. I will try 20 turns primary and a tapped secondary with 120/160/200 turns.

I still have to get more LED lamps in order to try more than one of the same type in parallel.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 27, 2012, 07:09:49 AM
Conrad -- agreed on the importance of the transistor, 2n3055 works well.  I did burn one out, accidental short on the output. 

Nick -- the cardboard box is cheap; the light meter recommended is only $13.30 on Amazon (prime) right now, and easy to use.  And repeatable.  And allows experimenters to calibrate easily and compare Lumen/Watt -- quantitatively.    Anyway, we may disagree on this point but I appreciate your input.

Here is a new vid by Peanutbutter, showing how straightforward it is to build a light-box.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3xuXKqMnjM&feature=em-uploademail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3xuXKqMnjM&feature=em-uploademail)

@all -- don't underestimate Lynxsteam's air-core, near-Tesla coil.  I like his approach!  I'm amazed frankly at how easy it is to start oscillating, and how well it works overall.

-Steve
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on May 27, 2012, 08:20:56 AM
 There is no disagreement Steven, the light box is of course better. But, some of us are half way around the world from Amazon, and import duty, international shipping charges and delivery fees, as well as other issues are also involved. Otherwise the $13 cost is very reasonable.  If you see what I mean...

  What I am wondering is what happened with the Lasersabers 10 led bulbs lighting on 200 mA???   If resonance is not involved with that, was is. Some guys are actually drawing more amps than when using a regular AC 110v grid source. So, we really need to get this down, and the use of the "light box" may be very helpful with that.
 
  Lighting a small house or shop, from a 10 watt solar panel 24/7 like totoalas is doing now is also great news.  I'm on that one like a cat following a mouse.

  Stefan does have a point though, concerning the damaging effect of super bright daylight spectrum 5000 or higher rated Led bulbs. The warm whites are more user friendly, and safer. Also, as no mercury is involved, as with the CFLs. I had forgotten about that as CFLs are so cheap and obtainable everywhere now. But, CFLs don't seam to last very long in my climate though, nor do the cheaper Leds, as I have a pile of dead CFLs ready to be converted over and gutted for further use with the Exciter, or Ringer circuits, if they'll work for that also.
  In any case,  this is all very exciting stuff...
                                                                     Nick
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 27, 2012, 05:28:01 PM
I don't get good results using a 3w Phillips LED bulb.  It draws more off this circuit than its rated for.  Lidmotor speculates that there is something in the circuit of the dimmable LED bulbs that is working with this simple JR circuit.  I agree with that.  So don't stop at those low watt LEDs and assume your circuit isn't working.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 27, 2012, 10:11:20 PM
I rewound my ETD49 3C90 core, see the attached picture. The taps give me options when connecting different bulbs.

I also have trouble with the Philips LED bulbs, 5 Watt and 9 Watt, specified for 220V - 240V. With the newly wound transformer they use 6 Watt and 12 Watt at 1:8 step up rate (the 5 Watt also likes 1:11 and 1:14, but the 9 Watt needs 1:8.

My best bulb is a 2.5 Watt LED from China (see attached photo), it uses about 2.2 Watt at 1:6 step up rate and it looks like I can connect some more with little power increase (I will buy a few more).

5 Watt and 7 Watt unmodified CFLs work very well with a little less power than specified at 1:16 step up rate (they are specified for 220V - 240V).

12 Watt and 15 Watt unmodified CFLs work but behave strangely. They have difficulties to start up and then draw about 8 Watt at 1:11, the brightness is not optimal. I guess that the transformer has trouble to transfer more than 10 Watt or it is my crappy power supply. I have to get a good 12 Volt Accumulator.

It looks like one has to carefully select a bulb and then to optimise the transformer for that specific bulb (also when using more than one bulb, one has to proceed in this way).

The circuit is very simple but also very sensitive to

- supply voltage ( I want to use a 12 Volt accumulator, charged by a solar pannel),
- transformer type and number of windings
- and type of light bulb.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 28, 2012, 05:03:28 AM
Conradelektro,

It is important to use a heavier insulated wire like bell wire prescribed by LaserSaber.  The heavier insulation acts as a capacitor and helps form the LC circuit.  I have tried the magnet wire primary and it doesn't work well.  I have good performance using magnet wire for the secondary on the air-core, but with the E-Core even the secondary needs to be the insulated wire. 

There is also the issue of what type of material the E-Core is made of.  I know with torroids there is a big difference in materials and I assume the same is ture for E-Cores.  At high frequencies the core may saturate.  Its the difference between banging on a drum and banging on a pillow.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NTesla on May 28, 2012, 08:49:34 AM
Has anyone tried to replicate this circuit using a bi-filar tesla pancake coil? I have thought of making such coils - perhaps both primary and secondary bi-filars but with the primary a thicker wire and appropriate ratio of turns. One could use a stack of ferrite toroids in the middle to couple the coils if required.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 28, 2012, 11:10:40 AM
Conradelektro,

It is important to use a heavier insulated wire like bell wire prescribed by LaserSaber.  The heavier insulation acts as a capacitor and helps form the LC circuit.  I have tried the magnet wire primary and it doesn't work well.  I have good performance using magnet wire for the secondary on the air-core, but with the E-Core even the secondary needs to be the insulated wire. 

There is also the issue of what type of material the E-Core is made of.  I know with torroids there is a big difference in materials and I assume the same is ture for E-Cores.  At high frequencies the core may saturate.  Its the difference between banging on a drum and banging on a pillow.

Material as I understand: high saturation level; Ferrite grade 3C30, 3C34, 3C90, 3C92, 3C96; or very big iron cores. One wants "ferrites for power applications".

This document explains a lot: http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/sfappl.pdf (http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/sfappl.pdf) (storage of energy page 18)

This page http://www.ferroxcube.com/appl/applicmain.htm (http://www.ferroxcube.com/appl/applicmain.htm) leads to a lot of info about ferrite materials and products. Also this page helps http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/prodmain.htm (http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/prodmain.htm) .

The heavy insulated wire poses a problem in case one wants a step up ratio of around 1:20 as required in Europe for bulbs designed for 220 Volt. In the US one gets away with a step up ratio of around 1:10 because the bulbs are built for 110 Volt. To make things complicated, there are bulbs built for 110V - 240V, which work with a 1:10 step up ratio.

I had to go back to enamelled wire because the number of turns required for a 1:20 step up ratio would not fit on my E-Core ETD49/25/16-3C90.

I also have a bigger E-Core FERROXCUBE ETD59/31/22-3C90 FERRITE CORE (Farnell order code 3056430). May be I can wind 15 and 300 turns of bell wire on it. The primary needs some turns to reach a useful saturation range.

Since I realised that most of the bulbs in Europe are made for 220 Volt (in contrast to 110 Volt in the US) it started to make sense and I raised the step up ratio to at least 1:16 (1:20 would be better). Now the 5 to 10 Watt CFLs (unmodified, as bought) work very well with less power draw (about 80% of the specified wattage). The 5 Watt Philips LED and smaller LED-bulbs work with about nominal power draw.

Only power hogs (more than 10 Watt power draw) still behave strangely. This might be, because my core becomes saturated at this Wattage (would need a bigger core and more turns of wire for primary and secondary).

We move into transformer design area. And this has little to do with wire insulation. It is all about core material (saturation level) and power transfer (number of turns).

The photo shows two 5 Watt CFLs driven with about 8,3 Watt. Of course, they might be a little less bright than driven with 220 V AC. It is difficult to judge by eye sight, but I suspect they are slightly brighter with the Joule Ringer.

I play with the CFLs because I have a lot of them at home and I only have a few LED bulbs (because they are still very expensive where I live).

Even the old incandescent light bulbs now show some light (step up ration 1:16) and one sees the saturation of the core at about 12 Watt. The incandescent bulbs draw 25 Watt upwards, but the core can only deliver up to 12 Watt.

My opinion:

The reason why Lasesaber's transformer does not draw more Ampere when more LED bulbs are connected is because it reaches saturation and therefore can not deliver more Wattage. This effect seems to be useful with some LED bulb types sold in the US. This effect seems also to be useful with bare CFL tubes (electronics taken out of the socket) and certain air core coils. The air core has a very low saturation level (also because of the very high frequency of a few 100KHz) and therefore limits power draw to a few Watts.

Once the right Voltage (220 V in Europe, 110 V in the US) and the right amount of power (Amperage, saturation of the core comes into the equation) is delivered to the light bulbs, all starts to be normal and as expected. The higher frequency of the Joule Ringer (a few Kilohertz) seems to induce a slightly higher brightness but might brake the bulbs sooner than specified (because they are designed for 50Hz or 60Hz).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 28, 2012, 01:58:57 PM
I am finding the turns ratio is less important than the material the wire is made from.  My best LJL so far has a turns ratio of 1:5. 

The E-Cores I made ignored turns ratio.  I just wound one layer of heavy insulated primary first and then as much telephone wire as I could.  The ratio was  less than 10:1.

Now if this were just a transformer then the voltage on my LJL 5:1 should be 60 vac.  But it is lighting 110 v LEDs very well.  If you look at scope output for the sawtooth wave the peaks can be quite high and at high frequency.  It may not be important what the rms is.  In fact a lower rms might be a good thing.  If we just light the bulb with our peaks at high frequency the bulb spends more time off and uses less power.  The eye can't see the flicker at high frequency.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on May 28, 2012, 08:25:21 PM
  Although I don't follow every ones replications on the Joule Ringer 2.0 design, it seams to me that no one has actually replicated the 2.0 circuit exactly as he is showing, for one reason or another.  This is the first step in trying to figure out how he has been able to obtain the results that he is showing, which no one else has been able obtain to the same degree.

  ConradE: It may be that the core saturates and can't provide for or can't self tune itself for any higher output when adding all the other bulbs, as you mentioned. But wouldn't the light intensity then be lowered instead, by all the additional bulbs all sharing the limited output. This does not seem to happen, to the same degree as it would normally be expected  Why?  It seams to me that as more bulbs are added, a higher or improved degree of resonance is obtained throughout the circuit, that counter balances the normal diminishing light effect. What else could it be??? If 5 more bulbs were added, the circuit would not then be as well "tuned", and not be able to keep up with them, and the normal effect of diminishing light intensity would then be seen. Re-tuning may then be needed, as is done with the Kacher devices by using the large variable capacitors, etz...
  Dr. Stiffler was able to light many leds (50 or more) from a low or restricted input source, while observing a very low mA draw. The same low draw that would light the one single tuning led, would like all 50 or more. Just like a radio signal is not dependent on how many radios are tuned to receiving that frequency.
Is this not the same effect that we are seeing here? 
  It also seams to me that the Kacher, the Joule Ringer, as well as the Stiffler devices are all somewhat related, and working from the same basic principal. Even though the HV frequencies may be different with the different designs, as tuning for one set frequency may not the goal, but tuning for resonance probably has got a lot to do with it.

  In any case, I'm so excited about all this that I hardly can sleep at night. while my mind continues working even non-stop on my own circuit replication of the Exciter type devices. As they only use maybe 1/10 the amount of power or draw compared to the  Ringer design, and will hopefully also be a very cost effective lighting solution, once mastered.
  My thanks to all for what you've shared so far.           
                                                                      NickZ
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 29, 2012, 07:16:55 PM
    ConradE: It may be that the core saturates and can't provide for or can't self tune itself for any higher output when adding all the other bulbs, as you mentioned. But wouldn't the light intensity then be lowered instead, by all the additional bulbs all sharing the limited output. This does not seem to happen, to the same degree as it would normally be expected  Why?  It seams to me that as more bulbs are added, a higher or improved degree of resonance is obtained throughout the circuit, that counter balances the normal diminishing light effect.
                                                                      NickZ

Well, more bulbs do not provide more light once saturation of the core is reached. And Peanutbutter291 shows it in his video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lmuI2hMA3A&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lmuI2hMA3A&feature=plcp) and apologizes for making a false assumption before properly measuring light output. I measured the effects of saturation, but I do not try to force anybody to believe me. It is always better to check oneself. The video shows that others get similar results to mine.

It is an interesting circuit, but there is no magic. The circuit is more efficient than commercially available 12V/110V(220V) converters (in a certain power range, about 3 Watt to 10 Watt, depending very much on the core size and material), but it is not OU.

It still might be advantageous to use more bulbs (with about the same light output as one bulb), because one can distribute the light better.

Further, one still has to test how long the bulb will survive the rather high frequency and the spikes created by the circuit. It might not be dramatic, the bulbs might still last many hours.

I am not criticising the circuit nor the inventor, but one has to stay realistic.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 29, 2012, 10:22:28 PM
Yes, this is not magic, except that if you are on a watt budget and want to use solar or wind power, I haven't found a better way to light a room.  With a wind turbine if you hook up a 10 watt bulb the turbine stops and wont start.  With solar, if you power bulbs directly using an inverter or via a battery bank through inverter the amp consumption is pretty bad.  Try it sometime.  If you are just trying to light bulbs fully bright, plug em in and pay the power company.

I recently plugged in just two 7.5 watt LED bulbs through my watt meter and into the house grid.  0.3 amps at 124 vac, 36 watts.  Through my LJL air core the watts were 6 running off a 12 volt battery.  As much light?  I don't trust my Lightbox so I am waiting for some confirmation.  I have a hunch that a lot of power is wasted using house grid.  Maybe in internal resistors.  The other factor is light perception.  Our eye may interpret brightness different from how a meter does.  At higher frequency there may be an adjustment in the way we perceive the light.

While the bulbs may not be as empirically bright,
I can as you say, 'add a few more' and spread the light!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on May 29, 2012, 11:33:55 PM
   Sounds to me like pretty good results, and fairly efficient,  all in all.
  What Lasersaber is showing is not a trick, so if 10 led bulbs can be lit off of a small battery like he is showing, at 200 mA, or 3 watts, then that is what it is. Most replicators have not really used the same exact bulbs, transformer, wiring turns, wire size, and even the 2n3055 transistor can and do vary in output. Magic may have nothing to do with it, but technology or even resonance effects might. 

  Dr. Stiffers PSEC circuit has also not been properly replicated, but that does not mean that it does not work as he has shown. Many times when things get to the nitty gritty, the inventor, or forum participation, or people just plain stop posting, no more videos, or even sometimes just stop in their tracks. Like John Bedini, Dr. Stiffler, Steven Marks, etz...
I'm glad to see that this has not been the case, here. As this is a very important project.
  It is up to us now to take the ball and run with it, and both of you have done a great job so far.
 I am playing in a different ball game right now, but am watching this with full anticipation, ready to jump into the water, once the pool warms up a bit.
  Your thoughts and tests are much appreciated.
                                                                         NickZ
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Peanutbutter29 on May 30, 2012, 02:27:35 AM
I did not / do not plan to post here.   I Like your work Conrad and am sorry your upset.  However, I'm not sure how you connect what I say to saturation.  I've learned some about that coil and it's rated for 380va.....its NOT saturating.  I don't believe the "Shacks" are either, as we are well below rated current on secondary (de-rated for higher fo). 
   Now as we approach higher power levels in a given bulb, is the core IN the bulb saturating and losing efficiency....very possible.  I think, at this point we can get an improvement if we can reverse engineer these some. 

About OU, I've stated to everyone and everywhere I didn't feel it was OU.  There is no disappointment here for me.  My disappointment was providing in-accurate information;  in regards to lumen output.  Tuning shown, improved 20%+ in Lu/W (25Lu/w to 31Lu/w), so that applies to that coil for sure.  Is there still a point to these, why sure.  I'll have a new video up soon hopefully explaining some more, showing some general thoughts on efficiency and tuning;  also some new numbers.  I have a box and can get good info, so it's as if I'm starting over in some aspects.

About "recreating" LS Overdrive.....that's a bit expensive to me.  Not sure if you saw on EF, but that core is 650.00, so outta my range.  If you want the core properties, here's the link for what was used in his experiment. http://www.metglas.com/products/page5_1_2_6.htm
Btw, it was annealed....

Another point, is that was hooked up still in a "normal" JR fashion with an isolated secondary (not tied to transistor).  I stated thanks many times and am still quite impressed that he figured out 2.0!  Again he was trying to provide something everyone could do and had to change circuit designs. 

The only point here is, I'm not sure THAT overdrive CAN be re-created (well 660.00).  We don't know lumens, but can you light that many for that low? Sure, I showed with 11 bulbs.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ncciyB6SKc&feature=plcp
go to around 4:45 and watch.  My shown minimum with 11 bulbs lit was 3.7v @ .75a or 2.775w   Compare to 13v @200ma 2.6w.  Check.
EDIT: Again, I tossed this one aside for the same reason...can't find it.  I didn't want to put more time in, I'd rather come up with something re-creatable.


I guess the 2.0 is a whole different beast from Lasersaber than the Overdrive was.  Either way we have potential......just one can be made simply.  Thanks again to Laser for showing that design!

Suppose that's it, Sorry to have butted in.
Take care all,
PB


EDIT:  give me a few days for the 220's.  I've not had as much time for those and don't have a bulb.  However, I DO think I have a solution w/o efficiency loss vs. our ratio :P.   I'm working on the higher volts too.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 30, 2012, 03:02:50 AM
     I have continued experiments with the SJR 2.0 using an air-core xformer (my thanks to LynxSteam -- good air-core design!).  Note that this is the straightforward 2.0 of Lasersaber and Lidmotor -- there is no bias from the + rail to the base.  Yet it generally starts right up and runs well.

  I need to note that since my last report on this air-core 2.0, I managed to short something out and thus I fried a transistor.  This happened while I was trying to light a bare CFL (i.e., guts removed, just the lamp).  So I had to replace the 2n3055.

PS -- the bare CFL did light up, but not brightly.  I much prefer the LED lamps and I've tested a bunch.  Of these, I still prefer the 1-watt "corn-cob" LED lamp from T-mart that I delineated earlier.  That's what I used today (first one bulb, then two).

  When I replaced the transistor with another 2n3055 that I have, I could no longer get the 53 Lumens/Watt that I discussed earlier.   It is possible some else changed, like connection - resistances; but I tried to keep things constant while I swapped out the 2n3055.  But, by moving the primary windings around a bit, I found today a maximum of 48 Lm/W, which is pretty good I think.

    The experiments today were run mostly at 10 Volts input from a PS.  I had already determined with this set-up that I got optimal light from about 8.5 to 11.5 volts.  10 V DC input makes calculating the input power easy...

  The photo shows 12-gauge wire on the primary concentrated at both ends of the tube.  I had taps on the red wire where I had removed some of the insulation.  I counted the windings and tapped the + voltage in at winding 31, 35, etc.  Note that with fewer windings on the primary, the output current (and voltage) are higher as expected, but the ratio Lumens out/Watts-in = Lm/W is not necessarily larger.  My goal remains to increase Lm/W.

   I'm using the calibrated light-box for measuring Lumens, with the calibration factor 0.08 Lumens/observed-Lux for my box as delineated in an earlier post.

 Here are salient results from today's experiments:

One LED bulb, with wires concentrated at left end, tapping at winding number

14   0.8A  2000 lux --> 160Lm, 160 Lm/8W = 20 Lm/W
31  0.60A   2030 lux--> 162 Lm, 162 Lm/6W = 27 Lm/W
40  0.19A  720 lux--> 58 Lm, 58 Lm/1.9W =   30 Lm/W
45  0.10A  310 lux--> 25 Lm, 25 Lm/1.0W = 25 Lm/W

I'm going to shorten the straightforward part, now that you see the pattern, to save typing time...
One LED bulb, with wires concentrated at both ends as in the photo attached, tapping at winding number

31   0.54A  152Lm,  28 Lm/W
35   0.45A  132Lm,  29 Lm/W
37   0.23A    78Lm,  34 Lm/W
40   0.25A   86Lm,  34 Lm/W

One LED bulb, with wires EVENED OUT along the length of the secondary coil; tapping at winding number

31   0.66A  240Lm,  36 Lm/W
37   0.61A  290Lm,  48 Lm/W   154 Khz on the DSO, 58 Vrms (output)
40   0.45A   169Lm,  39 Lm/W

Note the difference in Lm/W with the number of windings (tap) on the primary coil.

TWO  LED bulbs, same type, 1W 220V-AC bulbs, with wires EVENED OUT along the length of the secondary coil; tapping at winding number

31   0.74A  276Lm,  37 Lm/W
37   0.66A  291Lm,  44 Lm/W   72 Khz on the DSO (output)
  Note the drop in resonant frequency with 2 LED bulbs instead of one.  Lm/W drops a little/or roughly the same with 2 bulbs.

40   0.48A  192Lm,  40 Lm/W
45   0.39A  144Lm,  37 Lm/W

Conclusions:  windings spaced roughly evenly on primary is best; tapping at winding 37 for this set-up provides maximum, 47 Lm/W
(at least as high as winding 45 -- I did not test higher as the Lm/W was dropping).
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: SeaMonkey on May 30, 2012, 06:59:34 AM
I've just done some Spec Sheet checking on various LED Bulbs/Tubes and
some LED Lamp Driver Circuits.

The input voltage range specification is actually very broad and some
are capable of being powered by both DC and AC.

The listed efficiency of the various driver circuits is >80% which is
reasonably good for a commercial mass produced product line -
but, it could be much better.

Has anyone yet opened up an Led Lamp to investigate the driver
circuit?  With CFL drivers the input is a full wave voltage doubler
and I'm wondering whether the LED Lamp drivers are similarly
configured.

The capacitors in the voltage doublers of CFL drivers are quite
small to enable Power Factor Correction and the drivers are able
to be powered over a fairly broad voltage range as well.  CFL
drivers do not tolerate DC well though - in time the "unused"
capacitor in the voltage doubler will fail.

It takes a pretty high voltage to "strike" a fluoresecent lamp tube
when powered directly from a transformer winding.  For maximum
efficiency a ballast capacitor should be used in series with the
fluoresent lamp tube when AC operated from a high voltage
transformer winding.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on May 30, 2012, 09:21:50 AM
I did not / do not plan to post here.   I Like your work Conrad and am sorry your upset.  However, I'm not sure how you connect what I say to saturation.  I've learned some about that coil and it's rated for 380va.....its NOT saturating.  I don't believe the "Shacks" are either, as we are well below rated current on secondary (de-rated for higher fo). 
   Now as we approach higher power levels in a given bulb, is the core IN the bulb saturating and losing efficiency....very possible.  I think, at this point we can get an improvement if we can reverse engineer these some. 

@Peanutbutter:

The crucial experiment:

Take an ordinary incandescent light bulb (it has no internal circuit, just a filament in a glass bulb) e.g. a 25 Watt or a 40 Watt. Put this incandescent light bulb into the circuit (where you normally would put the LED-bulb or the CFL) and watch the power drawn by the circuit.

The power draw does not go anywhere near 25 Watt or 40 Watt, it stays at what I think is the "saturation region" of whatever transformer (defined by core type and number of windings for primary and secondary) one uses.

In my opinion, one crucial point is the number of turns for the primary (which then of course determines the number of turns for the secondary in order to reach a certain step up ratio). The more turns for the primary, the more power can be transferred. But the size of the core limits the number of possible turns. So, a bigger core might be helpful for more power.

Also the frequency is very important, lower frequency allows more power to be transferred. And this circuit runs at a few Kilohertz, so we are limited by the rather high frequency.

I have to dig out some book about transformer design and do the mathematics. The transformers taken out of power supplies are all optimised for 50Hz - 60Hz and the Joule Ringer works at a few Kilohertz. And in case of air cores up to a few 100 KHz, I observed 400 KHz with smaller air core coils.

If a core is rated for higher frequencies (like my E-core for FERROXCUBE) it will support higher frequencies up to 30 KHz, but power transfer is still smaller for higher frequencies than for lower frequencies. Take into consideration that 50Hz is 100 times less than 5000 Hz. So, the power one can transfer is 100 times less at 5000 KHz than at 50 Hz. So, the power supply you took the core from was able to provide 1000 Watt with a 50Hz input, and with the 5000 Hz input you can only reach 10 Watt.

One can see the "saturation" much easier with low inductance cores for pulse transformers (e.g. ferrite grade 3E27). When I used such cores, the power transfer was limited to one or two Watt (similar to the air cores).

The factors which determine the Wattage possible to be transferred:

- core type (material of the core)
- core size
- number of turns for primary (which determines the number of turns necessary for the secondary)
- frequency

And it is not easy to do the mathematics, specially "core type" and "core size" are hard to factor in. Also the number of turns is not as trivial as it sounds when doing the mathematics, because the diameter of the wire and the changing diameter of the windings play a role too. It all comes down to the fact, that my knowledge for doing the correct mathematics is limited. But the tests give a good indication of the limits of power transfer.

This said, I do not want to discourage people to work with this circuit. Just look carefully before drawing conclusions. Read through the posts and you will see that all experimenters observe this "limits for power transfer", specially with air cores (because they have low inductance). The "magic" of this circuit is, that power draw does not rise after a certain number of bulbs is connected. So, power transfer is limited.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 30, 2012, 02:40:30 PM
The latest results may enter into the discussion of saturation.

The experiment I posted above showed quite a lot of Lm/W, but it gets better and gives me hope...  The rating on most LED bulbs is approx 50-65 Lm/W typically.

  First, I went to 9V instead of 10, got nearly the same as at 10 V -- 49 Lm/W @ 170 KHz on the output, air-core.

I had two FERRITE RODS lying around, 20 cm long and approx 9mm diameter.  I simply placed these inside the air-core xformer, laid them in there.  Result:

One LED bulb, with wires EVENED OUT along the length of the secondary coil; tapping at primary winding number 37; 2 ferrite rods lying INSIDE the inner tube:

9V  0.22A  128Lm, [SIZE="5"]64 Lm/W[/SIZE] 111 Khz on the DSO (output)


Taking my dear wife to airport -- gotta run!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 30, 2012, 03:05:57 PM
Great work JouleSeeker!  64Lm/watt.  How much do you want?

I am glad the discussion and exploration continues.  The "Magic" is partly that we are exploring, trying different things and having fun doing something useful.  We could all be drinking beer watching basketball (nothing wrong with that).

A couple notes: 
I can't get anywhere near beating the E-Core with the Aircore (to be expected). 
There are some resonant points on the aircore that give really good results
Without the HV hooked up to a load I got quite a shock off the 12v positive lead while hooking up the aircore.  I am pretty sure the battery is part of the LC tank circuit and its charging between cycles.  Put a diode on the negative side of the battery and the circuit doesn't work.  If this is the case the battery may also be part of the limiting factor and part of the tuning.  I get better results with a large lead acid 12 v rather than a small nicad pack.  If the oscillations occur without the LED bulb then perhaps the bulb is not the big factor in the circuit but more along for the ride.

I am where Joule Seeker is with playing with ferrite, but with an enclosed magnetic field around the aircore.  This then is no longer an aircore.   I am playing with completely enclosing the coils to see what difference it makes.

My goal is to get total power up so that the ten bulbs are closer to fully bright and that we maintain the self adjusting ability of the circuit.  I want to avoid core losses and eddy currents in the core material as much as possible.

PB291 says the core is not saturating, Conrad says yes it is.  Could it be the Battery resistance is the limiting factor and confounding everyone's results?  Batteries have resistance and it is very difficult to measure.  It is usually between 1-4 Ohms.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 30, 2012, 10:58:06 PM
I don't know who reads these posts but perhaps you can pass this along to the offended parties.  It was not my intention to "rob" anyone of anything, circuit designs, their rightful place in our esteem, their turf.  I just bumped into this stuff (joule thiefs, joule ringers...) trying to find better ways to use wind power.  Using an aircore transformer, induction coils, alternator coils, is something I have been using for quite a while now.  I thought it was very clever to try LaserSaber's simple circuit with the aircore.  Evidently, that was a "no-no".  The aircore is not great or better than what LaserSaber shows, just different.  But apparently not different enough to start a new thread.  I apologize and I am sure the thread will fade off.

Anyway, sorry for the encroachment, I will bow out of this area of exploration.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: SeaMonkey on May 31, 2012, 12:14:28 AM
Quote from: Lynxsteam
I don't know who reads these posts but perhaps you can pass this
along to the offended parties...
...

I apologize and I am sure the thread will fade off.

Anyway, sorry for the encroachment, I will bow out of this area of exploration.

It is difficult to comprehend how anyone could feel "offended" by the
development of the discussion and all that has been included.

There is really nothing new under the sun.  Each circuit and its several
different variations that have been presented are all "re-hashes" of what
has been done by others long ago.  As one who's been working with
semiconductors since 1960 I can assure all concerned that the Joule
Thief/Joule Ringer circuits (even those with the 'load' in the base drive
sub-portion of the circuit) have been conceived/tested/evaluated by
many, many experimenters in the past.

The ONLY aspect of the circuits which is new and revolutionary is the
Light Emitting Diode.

It is difficult now to find documentation relative to the early work done
with these circuits since the hobbyist magazines have largely disapperared.
I happen to still have a copy of an old document MIL-HDBK-215 dated
15 June 1960 which is titled "MILITARY STANDARDIZATION HANDBOOK,
SELECTED SEMICONDUCTOR CIRCUITS."

Within its over 300 pages of circuits nearly every conceivable transistor
configuration is dealt with - including several versions of the blocking
oscillator which has come to be known as the Joule Thief.

The earliest home made Capacitor Discharge Ignition Systems which
many of us constructed in the '60s relied upon flyback generated high
voltage (400 - 500 Volts) which was produced in several versions of
single transistor blocking oscillator.

For anyone to think that they've found something new and incredible
which hasn't been seen before in transistor power oscillators is just a
bit disingenuous.

I cannot see where Lynxsteam should feel any need to make apology.

I can see, on the other hand, where some may wish to look into the past.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on May 31, 2012, 12:35:15 AM
  Although I don't know what is going on with that, just wanted to let you know that your input is really, really apreciated. This project is one of the most important things happening.
   So, please don't let the flies spoil the cake. Just shoo them off, and forget about them,   please, just do it for us.
   Thank you,
                     Nick
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 31, 2012, 02:05:32 AM
I don't know who reads these posts but perhaps you can pass this along to the offended parties.  It was not my intention to "rob" anyone of anything, circuit designs, their rightful place in our esteem, their turf.  I just bumped into this stuff (joule thiefs, joule ringers...) trying to find better ways to use wind power.  Using an aircore transformer, induction coils, alternator coils, is something I have been using for quite a while now.  I thought it was very clever to try LaserSaber's simple circuit with the aircore.  Evidently, that was a "no-no".  The aircore is not great or better than what LaserSaber shows, just different.  But apparently not different enough to start a new thread.  I apologize and I am sure the thread will fade off.

Anyway, sorry for the encroachment, I will bow out of this area of exploration.

Huh?    I've been on these forums for approaching two years now and any time someone puts an idea or circuit up PUBLICLY, it is "open sourced" that is, you are free to take it and run with it however you wish.  And your contributions BACK into the community are much appreciated!  You don't have to, but YOU do, and that is great!

  No one owns any "turf" on the air-core or JR or SJR circuit, that I know of.   
I wouldn't worry about that.   

Please do NOT " bow out of this area of exploration."  I'm certainly not going to.  And I intend to keep sharing also.
I agree with comments of Nick and Seamonkey above.

PS -- this is too fun to let egos get in the way of the fun... although, sure, we are human.  Faraday and Sir Humphrey Davy come to mind -- but Faraday continued despite the opposition nonsense from Davy.

  This is an OPEN_SOURCE forum; we are working together, most of us, to see what we can learn and do.  Most have altruistic motives for humanity, I believe, but also just having fun with electronics and discovery. 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 31, 2012, 04:43:10 AM
Great work JouleSeeker!  64Lm/watt.  How much do you want?

I'd like to beat the "world record" for a commercially-available LED bulb -- currently around 135 Lm/W (based on a quick literature search some weeks ago.)  A few mods to my set-up and I'm up to 71 Lm/W this evening.

Quote
I am glad the discussion and exploration continues.  The "Magic" is partly that we are exploring, trying different things and having fun doing something useful. 

I totally  agree.

Quote
A couple notes: 
I can't get anywhere near beating the E-Core with the Aircore (to be expected). 

Can you tell me -- how many windings on the primary and the secondary did you use?  Primary first on the spool? easier to tap if on the outside...

Did you use the LS 2.0 circuit without adding any diodes or connection (through a resistor) of the base to the positive rail?

T
Quote
here are some resonant points on the aircore that give really good results
Without the HV hooked up to a load I got quite a shock off the 12v positive lead while hooking up the aircore.  I am pretty sure the battery is part of the LC tank circuit and its charging between cycles.  Put a diode on the negative side of the battery and the circuit doesn't work.  If this is the case the battery may also be part of the limiting factor and part of the tuning.  I get better results with a large lead acid 12 v rather than a small nicad pack.  If the oscillations occur without the LED bulb then perhaps the bulb is not the big factor in the circuit but more along for the ride.


Very interesting!  How do we capture the energy kicking back to the battery?

Quote
I am where Joule Seeker is with playing with ferrite, but with an enclosed magnetic field around the aircore.  This then is no longer an aircore.   I am playing with completely enclosing the coils to see what difference it makes.

My goal is to get total power up so that the ten bulbs are closer to fully bright and that we maintain the self adjusting ability of the circuit.  I want to avoid core losses and eddy currents in the core material as much as possible.

PB291 says the core is not saturating, Conrad says yes it is.  Could it be the Battery resistance is the limiting factor and confounding everyone's results?  Batteries have resistance and it is very difficult to measure.  It is usually between 1-4 Ohms.


Right!  this is "no longer an air core".    (So Pls don't worry about somebody's turf....  I must say, the remark about an air core idea being "robbed" - strong word - over at EF has me perplexed and annoyed a bit.  Hopefully there will be an explanation.  Meanwhile, guess I'll stay away from the "air core 2.0" for a while myself... was planning to anyway...  ;) )
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Lynxsteam on May 31, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Somewhere a couple pages back I posted specs on the E-Core I have been using.  I used 16 turns primary, 160 turns secondary - telephone wire 24 awg.  I used the single 2N3055 transistor.  Primary wound solid across spool and one wound with two primaries, one unused.  Primary wound first.  Diodes anywhere in the circuit are not so good.  Resistors anywhere just burn amps.  Caps have little effect.  # of turns on either primary/secondary don't matter for oscillation.  HV can be connected or not.

I would love to hear how you got 71 L/W.

Tank circuit.  Think about that.  Why is it called a tank?  Do we want a teacup or a swimming pool?

 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 31, 2012, 07:27:04 PM
Somewhere a couple pages back I posted specs on the E-Core I have been using.  I used 16 turns primary, 160 turns secondary - telephone wire 24 awg.  I used the single 2N3055 transistor.  Primary wound solid across spool and one wound with two primaries, one unused.  Primary wound first.  Diodes anywhere in the circuit are not so good.  Resistors anywhere just burn amps.  Caps have little effect.  # of turns on either primary/secondary don't matter for oscillation.  HV can be connected or not.

I would love to hear how you got 71 L/W.

Tank circuit.  Think about that.  Why is it called a tank?  Do we want a teacup or a swimming pool?

Thanks for showing interest --  going from 64 Lm/W with the air core PLUS two 20cm Ferrite cores laid into it, 71 Lm/W was achieved by simply moving down the taps, from primary winding 37 (64 Lm/W) to 31 (71Lm/W).  Going further, the efficacy dropped off -- at winding 25, 61 Lm/W.

OK -- I have some wire and I have the e-core recommended by Lasersaber.  I will use heavier wire for the 16 turns, lighter wire for the secondary, NO caps or resistors -- see if I can get it to fly.

Tank circuit?  makes me think of an LC circuit.  Without caps, the only C is in the turns... could still be a tank circuit I think -- Is this what you are saying?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on June 01, 2012, 12:41:02 AM
So today I wound the Lasersaber -recommended E-core, and fired her up!  worked great, after a little fiddling. 
Thanks for input -- especially Lasersaber, Lidmotor and Lynxsteam.  (The three L's?  ;)  )

Video shows the result:  http://youtu.be/XGZf0_T_e14 (http://youtu.be/XGZf0_T_e14)

If you see the voice out-of-sync with the picture, let me know, would you?  I'm seeing that problem.

 Here's the description with it:
Quote
I did a replication of Lasersaber's 2.0 super-Joule-ringer, described here:
http://laserhacker.com/SuperJouleRinger2.html (http://laserhacker.com/SuperJouleRinger2.html)
First runs at 10V from the power supply, at about 0.08A.  I measured the Lux output from a 1.5W LED bulb, shown in the vid, in my calibrated light-box:   440 Lux, so 35 Lumens.
The input power is 10V * 0.08A = 0.8W (from the power supply readings). 
So we have for Lasersaber's 2.0 operating at 10V input, 35Lm/0.8W =  about 44 Lm/W.

This is less than I had with Lynxsteam's air-core system shown in background in the vid. BUT, in next vid at 17 Volts, the E-core system gets up to 74 Lm/W, which is better than I ever got with the air-core system (even adding Ferrite rods into the air-core system).

Since this is my first winding of the Lasersaber E-core, I'm quite sure even higher Lm/W yields can be achieved. 

I highly recommend use of the straightforward light-box (described at energeticforum.com and overunity.com) to get quantitative Lumens/Watt readings -- much more reliable than the naked eye!

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on June 01, 2012, 01:07:41 AM
   Thanks Steven, looking good. Lets keep at it, you might beat all expectations.
   The super Joule Ringer  2.0 video is currently unavailable for viewing. 
Any one know what's going on, or it is just me?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on June 03, 2012, 12:19:44 AM
  OK, I've done a vid on a few more tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlYzx8_wKFs&feature=youtu.be

Nothing spectacular, but lots of fun.
From my description of the vid:

Quote
More experiments on my replication of Lasersaber's super-Joule-ringer 2.0 (described at Laserhacker.com).   Here I add one 82 pF cap across the LED lamp (a test recommended by Lynxsteam-- thanks!).  I also show the effect of varying the voltage on the current draw and on the light output.  At 17V input, the system reaches about 70-72 Lumens/Watt.  One hand on the voltage control, the other holding the video camera... Happy experimenting!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on June 03, 2012, 02:08:37 AM
  This is very interesting -- latest vid from Lynxsteam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ykrx133qdc&feature=em-uploademail

Good work, Lynx!
Steve
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: b_rads on June 04, 2012, 04:59:51 PM
Looks like I have a lot of catching up to do.  I have been on vacation and out of touch with this project for a week.  I did have a little time yesterday to get back into playing around on the bench.  I saw this page a while back and finally got around to experimenting with the circuit.
 
http://tacashi.tripod.com/elctrncs/inverter/inverter.htm (http://tacashi.tripod.com/elctrncs/inverter/inverter.htm)
 
I did not have any of the parts specified, but what I did have worked very well.  I used a 470 Ohm and 1K resistor, 0.047uF and 0.01uF caps, 26g and 30g magnet wire, TIP31c transistor, and a slightly larger transformer core than what is shown on the link.  18 turns for the trigger, 35 turns for the primary and 275 turns on the secondary.  With these components the current draw is 110mA using 4 AAA batteries @ 6volts.  It lights 2 – 2watt each LED bulbs nicely.  Will do the light box test to determine how it is performing. When using 2 0.047uF caps, this circuit will light a modified CFL as well. 
 
Enjoy – Brad S   :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: jbignes5 on June 28, 2012, 07:21:12 PM



 Heys guys. I wanted to ask some of the better techs here if they could design a 10 led 3.2v 24ma 30000mcd led headlamp for my scooter. I just need the best circuit with the lowest draw ever from a small battery pack. I have read all the pages and still have not been able to figure this out. I'm no expert in the joule thief circuit.


 I appreciate the help guys.


 Where has everyone been as of late.. Almost a month without posts???
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 02, 2012, 06:56:23 PM
...


 Where has everyone been as of late.. Almost a month without posts???

A related discussion (based on an air-core design) continues here:
http://www.overunity.com/12340/joule-lamp/new/#new

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on August 13, 2012, 03:06:36 AM
here is interesting experiment of Russian inventor

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on August 24, 2012, 03:38:22 AM
here my Joule Ringer with Bulb
http://youtu.be/zhxFcyh-CuM
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 24, 2012, 04:58:47 AM
here my Joule Ringer with Bulb
http://youtu.be/zhxFcyh-CuM (http://youtu.be/zhxFcyh-CuM)

Great job!  This is a great circuit.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Ganzha on August 25, 2012, 03:53:16 AM
Thanks Bill!!!!!
here is practically this schematic
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on August 29, 2012, 06:08:14 AM
A related discussion (based on an air-core design) continues here:
http://www.overunity.com/12340/joule-lamp/new/#new (http://www.overunity.com/12340/joule-lamp/new/#new)


I never got it to work as first described running for a very long time on 10,000uf caps . that was my goal and after it didn't happen i proceeded in private. The thing is i have 70 AA Jt circuits so no shortage there . The Thought of running multiple Cfl tubes on an Electrolytic's microamps would have gone far .The Latest E-core thingy is cool but i do it with Big toroid on one c cell or a fuji on one aa... One thing i learned is i did increase a Fugi circuit with the air core to run way longer than i had previously  between 20-28 hours running cfl but it still is drawing MA's not micro ma's . I know a few replicated it like Lidmotor but even his results were close but not the same . So if it is ever replicated an aa battery could run the fabled Joule Ringer for many years by pulsing a good jt to quickly charge up a  few 10,000uf caps . Didn't happen to my knowledge  .I guess it was a part we could not not get . Like when i discovered i could run a Bedeni's output back to the source instead of a secondary battery with a Huge Vintage  RCA rectifier they don't make anymore . People Didn't believe that either until fausto\ replicated it and eventually replaced it with something Else that works just as well . It's all good and Glad Everyone is still having a blast Lighting lights for a fraction of the amp ! I haven't gave up on it and there are a few in the background still working on the original JR using Fugi.I am sticking with 1.2 volts and lower on all inputs because that is easy to obtain rather that 12 volts +
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on August 30, 2012, 01:52:19 PM
BTW , winding fugi transformer windings   was determined way back in 2008 by the jule thief group . Slayer was the first one to wind a replacement fugi transformer  with toroids and light Clfs with 1 volt . . I really don't see the the new E-core winding as an improvement or related to a Joule Anything because of the higher input voltage and current involved to make it run other than it is easier to wind for unexperienced winders  .I know i seem negative but the main thread was about running on a simple cap charged up to 8  volts and got sidetracked to a totally different beast . the first one was cool because it was claimed to run a fugi after the power was removed from the 10,000uf cap . This in my opinion was over unity but it was not replicated .
Lasersaber do you have thee "Ver 2.0" running like the original ?IF so How ? The Initial Statement was quoted By lasersaber after this question was asked at the Initial announcement Lasersaber made.
 Quote<blockquote>After the initial "power up" with the battery how long before the light goes out?</blockquote>
I have not really tried to do a record duration. I did do a test duration run once with a fluorescent tube and my 10000uF 10 volt caps filled to 8 volts. The tube stayed lit for 48 minutes. The last 20 minutes the circuit was still ringing but the tube was lit very dimly.

Could someone explain why we are not seeing this on our replication ? after all it was air core with ferrite  torroids on the ends?  and did not use an expensive Metglas core?

You know 30 seconds alone would be nice on any replication using fugi/cfl  but not even making 2 seconds ? HOW is is Delaying the input voltage supposedly stored in the :ringing: coil?You know Delay line coils were used in Color Tv with Tube Displays but ran at  ultrasonic it delays the colour signal for 64µs (fraction of a second) If we can figure out why his coil delays an hour and then  that  can be applied to all joule thief designs.what did he do different ? The april fools video did not help one bit with the photo shop edit and cast doubt but the original video caught the attention of everyone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEXCweMxhk
gadget
   
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on August 30, 2012, 02:28:54 PM
I think we should look into delay line construction ., Here is a link to build one http://www.hawestv.com/mtv_color%5Cdelayline.htm (http://www.hawestv.com/mtv_color%5Cdelayline.htm) 
this Delay line is 23 inches long and is over 2800 winds of what i call tesla wire #38. It explains how to make a coil like a capacitor using coax cable as a core with it's center removed and using the rf shield braid inside the winding as a core along with layers of paper and foil around the windings.It is conceivable to add many of these in series/parallel to obtain a few seconds of energy delay to loop the fugi output and feedback the circuit to self sustain with a 10,000uf capacitor initially charged to a nominal voltage  . Mind you the supercap will not work probably due to its internal Resistance. The following was borrowed from the above site and is credited to Original art by James T. Hawes who replicated this delay line for a replacement in old color tv's.

Cover the winding with a very thin dielectric paper. You'll find such paper inside old capacitors. Pull out the paper and reuse it.
Cover the dielectric paper with tin foil. The foil must extend past the end of the paper. Make sure that the foil doesn't touch the winding.
Ground the tin foil to the inside braid. Be careful not to short the winding to the grounding foil.
Remove the metal rod.
Cover the entire winding with electrical tape.

If anyone is still onboard i would like your opinions.I think the "ringing" is really stored capacitance in the external coil matching or exceeding the specs of a 10,000uf capacitor he used to power up.So ineffect the starting capacitor is actually depleted at start but recharged by this delay line coil in a fraction of a second and therfor the "ring" or feedback which is enuff to keep the transistor oscillating . I know it will oscillate lower than 2 ma however 2 ma at 1.5 volts is not enuff to light a cfl BUT 2ma @ 6 volts probably will.
I also suspect the delay line theory is the key to many claims of free energy including the SM TPU,kapanadze device,Witts and others. Could it be as simple as wraping our coils with paper and foil in Layers as described ..
Kooler and Mk1 if you are still around can you give some input . I will attempt this when time allows but i needed to get this information out now.For those of you who have Camera Flash circuits lets get back to the original concept in the picture .
Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: baroutologos on August 30, 2012, 07:47:35 PM
i always thought that joule ringer worked by having a " wet battery-coil" that provides voltage and some (minute) current for running the system.
Delay line? No galvanic action?


 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on August 31, 2012, 03:07:59 AM
i always thought that joule ringer worked by having a " wet battery-coil" that provides voltage and some (minute) current for running the system.
Delay line? No galvanic action?


 
No it was a Coil and not an Air battery . He  made some air batterys but this one was just a coil wound a certain way and runs off a standard 10,000 uf electrolytic cap  alone
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 31, 2012, 05:18:02 AM
Gadget:

Did he ever try a supercap in that circuit?  I know it would be just like having a battery in the circuit BUT, my question is....can we get a supercap to ring in resonance like he did with the one he used?

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on August 31, 2012, 06:05:08 AM
Gadget:

Did he ever try a supercap in that circuit?  I know it would be just like having a battery in the circuit BUT, my question is....can we get a supercap to ring in resonance like he did with the one he used?

Bill
Hi Bill
recap on this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEXCweMxhk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEXCweMxhk) he showed replacing the rail with a supercap. YEp we know the fuji will run on a super cap and i remember you ran one charged from your EB.

yes he did try a supercap and it didnt work for a min..i am still trying to do this replication like his . I got plenty of those parts it;s just a mystery on the coil part . I suspect he made the coil hold energy  like a cap and Delayline and you know he fead back the HV from the CFL back to the 10,000ufcap so it could charge instantly.I myself  have one led E light that is recharging it self running for years now BUT i don't remember how i did it and encased it so i won't mess it up .I used a couple of very tiny ferrite beads and lots of fine wire and several caps and germaniums and a special transistor and i tried to take it apart to retrace and draw the schematic to share and messed it up and snapped  tiny wires .i couldn't take it apart because i used epoxy on parts of it . I found it fixed it and encased the circuit in Lucite . I was just poking around with new e-light circuits and wala .Now people don't believe this but i already knew it can be done.The question remains if it runs forever in a feedback mode . I doubt it .Either the nimh battery will eventually fail or the led will burn out . I have seen an led burn out of its  life on a pal-light i have . look em up they stay lit so you can find them and i always kept a fresh 9 volt in in . It eventually stopped lightning after years and years and i suspect is ran over its rated hours . I replaced it and good to go .My little light will run until a component fails. I believe Lasersaber stumbled on a simular thing .
you know Lidmotor could not replicate it with a standard cap and he did use a supercap although just not the same .
I ain't giving up on this one  . so many projects and My Daughter just started 5th grade...wheew...
BTW i am waiting for winter for my Nitinol project . Cool is a problem and i cannot get the wire to phase change fast enuff yet with all the hot weather ,rain every day ,, Ahh winter..
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on September 01, 2012, 10:39:16 PM
here is a small version using parts from dvd player C-core on a broken home dvd player circuit board . it has two windings i did not wind or modify and hooked it up just like a normal jt except put a cap across the pot legs . it will pulse at one click per second and SCREAM and make lots of noise to well over 20 hz . it light up led bulbs unmodified or just one led . it is self regulating .it won't light a cfl on 1.2 volts as is and because i dont know how many winds are on the small C-Core transformer it just lights led  efficiently . this one has been running for two days now with me playing with it and leaving it lit night and day . 1.2 volt input . named it JOULE SCREAMER.i put a small plastic"amplifier" on top of the C -core junction . that is where all the sound comes from . i can make a vid if any one want me too.It is very LOUD and Vibrates .My daughter hate the sounds because her ears can hear the highest pitch . even a dog whistle and every Jt we have made . I can't but i can hear and feel this one . .its self starting and the small cap is not hooked up . just wire a jt and put a cap across a 9 k pot
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on September 25, 2012, 03:30:21 PM
Lasersaber published a new Super Joule Ringer 3.0 Video, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFHZMhnV2g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFHZMhnV2g) .

I tried the new circuit where the output of the lamp is connected to the collector (in contrast to a connection to the emitter as in Super Joule Ringer 2.0).

But I could not wind the new transformer because Lasersaber has not yet published specifics of his new Ferrite rod and not yet a link to a source of his new Ferrite rod.

So, I use an old transformer which I had wound for testing the Super Joule Ringer 2.0, see the attached photos and circuit.

With this old transformer I can now also light incandescent lamps (dimly) and various CFLs and LED-lamps. But here in Europe they are all designed for 220 Volt (and not for 110 Volt as in the USofA). Therefore one needs an other set of windings. With a 60 turn primary and a 970 turn secondary I need at least 13 Volt to light various lamps. Specially lamps with a high Wattage (more than 5 Watt) need the 13 Volt to turn on reliably.

Once Lasersaber publishes specifics about his new Ferrite rod, I will try to find a winding ratio with works for a 220 Volt output.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I used a 2N3055 transistor and the photo shows the circuit with a 5 Watt 220 Volt LED lamp.

P.S.: Lasersaber just published his Super Joule Ringer 3.0 http://laserhacker.com/SuperJouleRinger3.html (http://laserhacker.com/SuperJouleRinger3.html) and I will try to get a similar Ferrite rod.

I found this Ferrite rod http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180969160977 (http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180969160977) , but it will take some time till I get it.


Update:

I did some more tests and found that my power supply can not deliver more than 3 Amps. When I did tests with a 12 Volt battery I could light all 220 Volt CFLs and LED lamps I have reliably. The higher Wattage lamps draw a lot of Amps for a short time (some milliseconds) when they power up, then the power draw goes back to the specified value.

Windings on the transformer: 60 turns primary, 970 turns secondary, 1 : 16 ratio

So, the new Super Joule Ringer 3.0 circuit works well also with a transformer for the Super Joule Ringer 2.0.

The advantage of the new Ferrite rod transformer is first of all the rather low price for the rod (in comparisson to my big transformer core) and the simpler winding (handling of a rod is simpler than handling of my two part transformer which needs clamps and sticky tape to inhibit chatter).

Further Update:

The circuit swings at about 8,6 KHz.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 26, 2012, 06:55:04 AM
Conrad:

Nice work.

Laser:

Great job.  This appears to be a large step forward.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on September 26, 2012, 01:18:07 PM
Lasersaber published a new Super Joule Ringer 3.0 Video, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFHZMhnV2g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFHZMhnV2g) .

I tried the new circuit where the output of the lamp is connected to the collector (in contrast to a connection to the emitter as in Super Joule Ringer 2.0).

But I could not wind the new transformer because Lasersaber has not yet published specifics of his new Ferrite rod and not yet a link to a source of his new Ferrite rod.

So, I use an old transformer which I had wound for testing the Super Joule Ringer 2.0, see the attached photos and circuit.

With this old transformer I can now also light incandescent lamps (dimly) and various CFLs and LED-lamps. But here in Europe they are all designed for 220 Volt (and not for 110 Volt as in the USofA). Therefore one needs an other set of windings. With a 60 turn primary and a 970 turn secondary I need at least 13 Volt to light various lamps. Specially lamps with a high Wattage (more than 5 Watt) need the 13 Volt to turn on reliably.

Once Lasersaber publishes specifics about his new Ferrite rod, I will try to find a winding ratio with works for a 220 Volt output.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I used a 2N3055 transistor and the photo shows the circuit with a 5 Watt 220 Volt LED lamp.

P.S.: Lasersaber just published his Super Joule Ringer 3.0 http://laserhacker.com/SuperJouleRinger3.html (http://laserhacker.com/SuperJouleRinger3.html) and I will try to get a similar Ferrite rod.

I found this Ferrite rod http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&;;item=180969160977 (http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180969160977) , but it will take some time till I get it.


Update:

I did some more tests and found that my power supply can not deliver more than 3 Amps. When I did tests with a 12 Volt battery I could light all 220 Volt CFLs and LED lamps I have reliably. The higher Wattage lamps draw a lot of Amps for a short time (some milliseconds) when they power up, then the power draw goes back to the specified value.

Windings on the transformer: 60 turns primary, 970 turns secondary, 1 : 16 ratio

So, the new Super Joule Ringer 3.0 circuit works well also with a transformer for the Super Joule Ringer 2.0.

The advantage of the new Ferrite rod transformer is first of all the rather low price for the rod (in comparisson to my big transformer core) and the simpler winding (handling of a rod is simpler than handling of my two part transformer which needs clamps and sticky tape to inhibit chatter).

Further Update:

The circuit swings at about 8,6 KHz.

Good news thank you .. I got mine in and am winding today. thank you for posting this and sharing, this Joule ringer has been on my mind for over a year now . I am still working with the original one though . I will never give up my 1.2 volt inputs supply volts though.
And i still have my theory  as to the effect of JR1 running so long . The Delay line (Cap-coil) i think is the key .

Using air core made of diletric materials and winding layers of wire and separating them with waxpaper,aluminium foil,waxpaper then repeat windings as so on . Also this delayline should have connections to each layer of foil so as to have an extra wire.. more  on that later .

Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Dave45 on September 26, 2012, 01:49:56 PM
 8) marking thread
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: synchro1 on September 28, 2012, 06:39:56 PM
JLN's 2Sgen "6" demonstrates a Lambda of 13.7. This is the ratio of demagnatization power to magnatization power. Lasersaber's Super JR "3" is an overunity generator of the same kind. A standard transformer uses steel laminations to regulate this unwanted side effect of voltage increase. The solid ferrite core and the single wrap 14 & 28 gauge primary and secondary makes  Lasersaber's Super JR 3 identical to one side of a "COOK BATTERY" not a transformer. JLN'S formula can help determine the "Lambda". I believe this version has a good chance to loop back to source and self sustain due to it's very low control power requirement. The power source needs to be a rechargable Ni-Cad battery. The top wire of the secondary and the wire from the transistor collector that attach to the light bulb in the schematic need to go to a capacitor and fast switching diode in series. The battery would then attach to the positive and negative poles of the battery from respective poles of the capacitor. The capacitor voltage has to be two or three volts over the battery voltage for it to work. When the battery voltage begins to climb, one needs to attach a load to avoid an explosion. A bank of LEDS would work fine. Again, Lasersaber's video hyperlink:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFHZMhnV2g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFHZMhnV2g)
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on September 28, 2012, 06:56:59 PM
Good news thank you .. I got mine in and am winding today. thank you for posting this and sharing, this Joule ringer has been on my mind for over a year now . I am still working with the original one though . I will never give up my 1.2 volt inputs supply volts though.
And i still have my theory  as to the effect of JR1 running so long . The Delay line (Cap-coil) i think is the key .

Using air core made of diletric materials and winding layers of wire and separating them with waxpaper,aluminium foil,waxpaper then repeat windings as so on . Also this delayline should have connections to each layer of foil so as to have an extra wire.. more  on that later .

Gadget

Any updates? I have all of the necessary parts for this build....maybe this weekend!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on September 28, 2012, 09:14:08 PM

And i still have my theory  as to the effect of JR1 running so long . The Delay line (Cap-coil) i think is the key .

Using air core made of dielectric materials and winding layers of wire and separating them with waxpaper,aluminium foil,waxpaper then repeat windings as so on . Also this delayline should have connections to each layer of foil so as to have an extra wire.. more  on that later .

Gadget

@Gadget:

Your special air core (cap coil with waxpaper - aluminium foil - waxpaper between the windings) sounds very interesting. Please publish a circuit that also shows how to connect the aluminium foil to this "delay line".

I like air core coils because one can build them easily at home. It is always a hassle to find and to buy the right Ferrite cores. An air core also gives a much nicer sine wave type signal in comparison to a coil with a metal core. I do not mind size, bigger things are easier to build.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on September 29, 2012, 08:33:41 PM
Hello All,

Maybe someone can help me with me replication.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EdlzlZoJU&feature=plcp
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gyulasun on September 29, 2012, 10:52:07 PM
Hello All,

Maybe someone can help me with me replication.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EdlzlZoJU&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EdlzlZoJU&feature=plcp)

Hi sprue,

Please read this post I wrote to Skywatcher, maybe it can help you. 
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7051-joule-ringer-51.html#post210112 
I am not sure: you use a neon bulb as the light bulb?  then just use a parallel variable resistor to give start current to the base of the transistor.

Gyula
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: stprue on September 29, 2012, 10:59:40 PM
Hi sprue,

Please read this post I wrote to Skywatcher, maybe it can help you. 
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7051-joule-ringer-51.html#post210112 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7051-joule-ringer-51.html#post210112) 
I am not sure: you use a neon bulb as the light bulb?  then just use a parallel variable resistor to give start current to the base of the transistor.

Gyula

Hello,

I will try this, but Lasersaber did not need a base resistance for his crt to auto start.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: jbignes5 on September 30, 2012, 02:24:43 AM



 I heard someone talking about looping back to the source. If you do this make sure you do it via a good isolation transformer and diode bridge with cap. This should work extremely well.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on September 30, 2012, 02:59:58 AM
Hi The basic concept of the delay line is post 550 . I would two of those e cores . But different  . I used #36 wire inside about 5000 turns and centertapped another layer about 1000 turns and put the paper foil paper and then wrapped my plastic coated bell wire the length . with 1 .2 volts feeding the 1000 turns and outside bell wire as a normal jy hook up i get about 900 volts from the inside 5000 secondary . it light led bulbs nicely and will dimly light a cfl bulb . not happy . I know i can throw  5 volts to it and go bright on the cfl .. its been running for 24 hours buzzing and lighting that  cfl  nightlight style with an 1500 farad ultracap . it started at 2.687 and is 2.508 after 24 hours . I want to kill it and see how many days it will go . In the meantime i bought one of those EXPENSIVE Ferrite rods . That thing was 29 dollars for that fat rod. I thought he said they were 2 dollars . WRONG. anyways i will have his exact stuff . i want to see a 60watt filament burn off one battery like he showed . If it does im shooting it 12 volts and sticking in a power strip . :)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on September 30, 2012, 03:05:56 AM
    I've replicated Lasersaber's 3.0, based on an operating 2.0 version that I had previously.  Then, I simply took the output wire that was connected to the emitter on the 2N3055 (2.0 version) and moved it to the collector.  It worked great! 

    I then ran with 6 LED bulbs in my light-box, as I had done with the 2.0.  I found that the light output was about the same for the two versions (109 Lm/W for the 3.0 versus 112 Lm/W for the older 2.0 -- at 12.8V input). 

    Next, I hooked up the output to my "Davey-bell" system and observed a LOT of electrolysis;  but no xs heat.  (I've pointed out elsewhere how I see many similarities between so-called "cold-fusion" experiments which I've done for many years and the Davey invention patented in 1944 by Peter Davey.  Both have electrodes and electrolysis; both claim "excess (xs) heat" under certain circumstances.  )

 I made a quick vid of this effort today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DtvKnZk9iM&feature=youtu.be 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on September 30, 2012, 04:09:21 AM
Jouleseeker are you saying you could not get the same results with version three with the ferrite rod? If not why?

@conradelektro   (http://www.overunity.com/profile/conradelektro.22881/)
\ (http://www.overunity.com/profile/conradelektro.22881/)

The Schematic you got off Ls site looks wrong to me . On his ferrite rod i know there are more than twenty turns on that , there has got to be at least 400  to 600 turns on his inside coil and for sure more than 200 on the outside looking at the video and the length of these things . what do think? he said #30 . that is fine wire . also that roll of insulated wire is big and given the size twenty turns would not go an inch on that rod. I will try it buy i don't want to spend a year and half on it like i did the jr1 .
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: synchro1 on September 30, 2012, 05:10:50 AM
@Gadgetmall,
                      Lasersaber's Super JT 3 has 200 turns of 28 gauge magnet wire for the single wrap primary, wound directly over the ferrite rod, covered by 20 turns of 14 gauge household wire wound in the same direction.
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on September 30, 2012, 09:17:15 AM
Jouleseeker are you saying you could not get the same results with version three with the ferrite rod? If not why?


I didn't say that, please note what I said:
 
Quote
  I then ran with 6 LED bulbs in my light-box, as I had done with the 2.0.  I found that the light output was about the same for the two versions (109 Lm/W for the 3.0 versus 112 Lm/W for the older 2.0 -- at 12.8V input).

So, about the same results.  Both my version 2 and version 3 use three ferrite-rods inserted axially in the air-core xformer seen in the video.  I discussed the version 2 with ferrite rods months ago; it was an idea back then to insert one, two and then three ferrite rods into the air core xformer of the joule-ringer 2.0.  See for example this vid I posted back in June:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=ZaNt74D4Ee8

What surprises me is the large amount of electrolysis occurring after about 15 seconds of running, as shown in the video.  Still puzzling over that.  The waveform from my version 3 output as seen on my oscilloscope is attached.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: jbignes5 on September 30, 2012, 03:05:43 PM


 What happens to that wave form if you put a smoothing cap in there? Will it clean that signal up and make it less dirty?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on September 30, 2012, 06:02:48 PM
@Gadgetmall,
                      Lasersaber's Super JT 3 has 200 turns of 28 gauge magnet wire for the single wrap primary, wound directly over the ferrite rod, covered by 20 turns of 14 gauge household wire wound in the same direction.
 
Ahh thank you . that explains it .  BTW that ebay seller is getting greedy ans the are over 31 dollars now . you can save a heck of a lot of money buying it from his site directly @ http://www.rgb52.com/8-by-5-8-625-ferrite-rod-good-for-hf-balun-011.htm (http://www.rgb52.com/8-by-5-8-625-ferrite-rod-good-for-hf-balun-011.htm)   they are 16 dollars there today


Yes Jouleseeker i know you didn't exactly that . I can do the same thing with one cell. I was wondering after your replication did you get the results as Ls did. thats all .  .
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on September 30, 2012, 08:29:35 PM
   JouleSeeker:
   Thanks for the explanation. It looks like your circuit is working well whether the  lamp is connected to the transistor control, or the emitter.  So, the bigger ferrite rod does make a difference, as compared to the air core coils without the ferrite.

   I made a smaller version of the 3.0.  I don't have a big ferrite rod, but I do have a 3 inch one that came out of a older am/fm radio.  So, I used it, and wound a 20 turn primary, and about 200 turn secondary, directly over this ferrite rod.  I can't find the 2n3055 here at the Shack, so I used what I had on hand, a TIP 31, which is actually a TJE 3055.  Anyways, it did not work, at all. So, I tried the small transistors that I use on my Exciters, and did get it to work lighting any Cfl, even the 65 watt ones, 25watt, 15watt, etz...  BUT, not brightly, and not as bright as the Exciters will output wirelessly using the same 6 to 10v input.
  Although this circuit will light better on 12v, but the transistors get hot.
  So, I'm still working on it, in the meantime, here's a couple of pictures. The first pic is the same coil running as an Exciter.
  When I get this further along I'll make a short video, as It's pretty impressive to see this small a coil lighting bigger 65watt Cfls.
          NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gyulasun on September 30, 2012, 09:54:58 PM
Folks,

Here are some ebay offers for ferrite rods:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=ferrite+rod&_sacat=0&_from=R40 

Gyula
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 01, 2012, 04:19:42 AM
Here is one of two  E=core transformers on 2.5 volts . http://youtu.be/ogTlIlkzYaA

I am Doing a Drain test on an ultracap . so far 38 hours lights a cfl dim but current drain is little . It is hooked up like a JT so it is not a joule ringer .

about 5000 winds #36 and another 2000 winds same direction and another 30 turns bell wire on the outside . I am using the 2000 and the 30 for the jt with a 2n3055 . the 5000 winds will bite hard built the low frequency i have it running faintly lights a clf . it will run an led bulb bright at 1.5 volts . I will make a video on that later .

Waiting for my golden rods that cost a fortune (credit) :)

Thanks for the links Gyula !! I might get some if some one else tried it first . I want exactly what LS used because the ferrite also have permeability ratings .. Different core might be the difference between a good ferrite ring and a metglas one . big difference//possibly .

I want to see a filament light up with a 1.2 volt battery like he did . if it will do that i am looping it .

Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: JouleSeeker on October 01, 2012, 01:12:46 PM
Good work, NickZ and others, too!


 What happens to that wave form if you put a smoothing cap in there? Will it clean that signal up and make it less dirty?

Here you go:
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: jbignes5 on October 01, 2012, 02:28:58 PM
 Ahh that is on the output? Strange how the pulse is still there in the middle of the waves. My thinking was to put the cap on the output to smooth the output wave and make it look more like a sine wave.

 Second question what does it do to the load now with the cap there?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 03, 2012, 03:11:22 AM
Hi . Well While i am waiting for my golden rods i  do have a 6 inch long rod about 3/8 diameter  .
Couldn't resist .
IT WORKS ! ! Lights that 60 watt Filament right up on 12 volts but the 2n3055 gets smoking hot soooo... it does work but eats amps .Draws almost 3.4 AMPS  and the 60 watt bulb is not fully lit  .also tried a microwave oven bulb and it is still not fully lit . if you disconnect the bulb the coils are open so the circuit shuts off .This needs another transformer in series . i will try tomorrow .
That is a hell of a lot for a battery pack. I think it needs more than 200 windings soooo will try 400 to 600 and see if the same light lights but drops those amps and cools down. I also tried the collector and emitter reverse . maybe just a bit less like 3.3 amps draw .. It will not light a cfl . It will light led bulbs so the current is there but the high volts to light cfls is not. It also will not light an unmodified one either .One mod i tried to reduce the  base voltage and current was put a pot between the base and coil . It Smoked it in a flat second and burnt out like i plugged  it in a wall outlet . It needs more turns either  on the primary or the secondary to cool this sucker down running Incandescent bulbs . The lowest i could make a  filament glow  was 3.5 volts at 1.1 amps ..about 10 mins of testing and My Hi amp 13.5 volts battery pack needs recharging again .
I recommend a fan cooled heat sink for this circuits transistor and a car battery with this one .

Very nice none the less . thanks lasersaber for your sharing this cool circuit . 
Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 03, 2012, 06:54:52 AM
 I added another layer of 28 gauge wire on top of the first layer of the secondary windings,  of the small 3 inch ferrite rod core coil. It's the same coil as is pictured a couple of posts back. I replaced the small transistor with the MJE 3055, again, to have another go at it, as I have three of those and they all tested fine.
   At first nothing, zilch,  so I kept tinkering as this circuit does need to be kick started.  When I got it going it lit the 65 watt CFL bulb, still dimly. On 12volts the transistor gets real hot in just seconds...  So, I added a diode or two off of the base rail, now the circuits flashes very brightly, the heat on the transistor is gone, at least for now.
BUT,  It gave me such a shock that I almost threw the diode across the room from the zap it gave me. So, there's hope.  I'm still working on it...

   

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 03, 2012, 12:43:03 PM
Thanks Nickz  . there needs to be a higher resistance in there i will try some microwave diodes on that base .

here is what i have so far . amp guzzler thought still and i can smell the transistor cooking ,
.

http://youtu.be/qm8O1hMXpRs (http://youtu.be/qm8O1hMXpRs)

Last pic is one of lasersabers golden rods . two cost me dearly nearly 60 bucks . don;t waste your money buy the 10mm X200mm for a few bucks.

My radio rod is 6 inches and it made no difference at all with these new rods.
 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 03, 2012, 06:59:06 PM
Any heatsink is better than none! You can boil water with a 2n3055 and it will still work, but you can damage them from heat if they are just naked like that and you get into higher power levels.
Just drill some holes in a bit of aluminum or iron plate and screw the transistor down, with a little silicone grease. Just remember the collector is the case so your heatsink will be too. You can insulate it but why bother, if the single transistor is the only thing on it.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 03, 2012, 09:54:34 PM
Lighting NE-2 with 1.2 volts input, using a "slight modification" to Lasersaber's jt3: the addition of the diode allows the oscillations to start and make spikes high enough to light up the NE-2. It blows LEDs easily.

ETA: Works well with 2n3055 too, probably brighter NE-2 but uses more current too. Certainly louder "hum".


Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 03, 2012, 11:55:04 PM
Nice Going TK . that is sweet ..Current draw?  Hums huh? the Joule rattler :} I like that . Thank you for that circuit also .

Laser sabers won't light a cfl but it lights led bulbs ok which is good and it lights up 60watt incandescent which is cool  but no hv . However it is enough to kill you running on 14.5 volts soo . It's fun. thanks  for the heat sink thing . i some big ones around here some where but sucking my battery's dry in minutes is not something i like doing because the normally last months .



@Gadgetmall,
                      Lasersaber's Super JT 3 has 200 turns of 28 gauge magnet wire for the single wrap primary, wound directly over the ferrite rod, covered by 20 turns of 14 gauge household wire wound in the same direction.
 
Thanks
Yea thats what he said . In no way is the circuit even close to ou .I have all the exact parts in to day and that rod wound 200 turns of #24 leaves 2 1/2 inches uncovered so i  left 1 1/4 inches on either side and would the #14 20 times . It lights the exact same as my 6 inch rod nearly identical massive current draw ..so . I am Disappointed . I don't see any difference . i counted the windings 200 #24  / and twenty #14 and it lit up the bulb but the transistor still gets so hot you can't touch it . I also cannot light the filament up with a 1.5 volt battery as he did in the  video . Nor can i swap emitter and collector like i can with the other radio rod :  So i unwound it and this time i used # 20 wire all the way from end to end again and it ended up being 350 turns end to end using bigger wire that 24 , So if he used # 24 in the video as he said it will take quite a bit more turns than 200 to go end to end .With 200 turns of #24 wire i have over one inch on each end not covered in wire . So 350 turns #20 and 30 turns of house wire . I could go 50 turns but ran out .i used 4 1/2 feet for 30 turns . .
Results . Just a bit brighter but the transistor still sucks 3.2 amps and gets very hot . I tried a ceramic resistor on the base  and you can roast a weenie near it . Transistor still hot . Soo . I don't know what else to do to it right now .
 I might try 4 layers of #20 on the inside and 100 turns of house wire on the outside of the next rod and see what that does,... If that don't work like i want it to i will wind 2000 turns on the inside and experiment with different wires on the outside . They are easy to wind and unwind .

Goal here is get the input volts and current way down like 1.2 volts //////////////// I might try a big Darlington on it before i do any more mods also . If it is any different that what i had i will post it in a vid.

Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 04, 2012, 01:52:54 AM
  Gadget:
   Thanks for the information on the new rod.  There is something wrong with the info on the amount of turns, I believe it to be 60 turns for the primary, and about 600 for the secondary. If you look at his video, you can count the turns of the red primary wire, and is it a lot more than just 20 turns. He mentioned to totally cover the single layer of 28 gauge secondary the full width of the rod. Not just 200 turns, which would only be a couple of inches.
  So, we need more information to replicate this properly.  There is more than one mistery to this circuit, and we need to discover them. Everyone is frying eggs on their transistors... and he doesn't even use a heat sink.
  Try adding a couple of diodes on the base. That is how I got the HV to light the Cfls.  This circuit can shock the living Sh!t out of you, so be careful.
                                                     Nick

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 04, 2012, 03:23:37 AM
Yea . no diodes don't work . resistors don;t work  caps don't work . It will almost fire an unmodified cfl not quite . It lights any led unmodified bulb . light all filiment lamps but no HV , tomorrow i am going to visit  my mom so i won't have time tomorrow but i am going for the gusto on the other rod . I also have tried winding the outside both ways just in case . there is no difference either way .you just have to go to one end or the other for the bulb connection and the pos . Yea he didn't count them like i said i have his rod and if he used 28 wire then yea its 600 plus turns from ens to end. i tried 24 and no where near the end . then tried heaver 20 . it took 350 turns . that is not enuff either . but it sure will carry the current . see yall later .
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2012, 04:29:15 AM
The circuit I posted earlier, with a 2n3055,  will flash a 13 W unmodified CFL about once every two seconds, running on less than 1.2 volts input. Just take out the NE-2 and hook the CFL across the diode. Try both polarities.



Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 05, 2012, 07:28:39 PM
I am building one like your too Tk . thats surprises me . It is right on the verge of firing that cfl . I bet of you hit the bulb with a blow dryer and get it hot it might fire right off .

I now have finished one rod to my liking . it will also run from a 1.2 volt battery and light led bulbs and make filaments glow .
I just posted a video of it running on just 5 volt caps(ultra of coarse) lighting anything i screw in in . It fires a clf FULL bright and hot just like house current would . http://youtu.be/8_0OsJUNlgw (http://youtu.be/8_0OsJUNlgw) This is a major improvement from LS 14.5 volts . And this is Real world power that can kill you from a few batteries . This One is a keeper . I also have an extra 350 turn secondary on this one .. I wound another one too and put twp layers of secondary one on the other . I taped the first one then continued with the same wire back to the start then tapped it . and then wrapped it with house wire . this is my small one . She blew three darn transistors on anything over 5 volts . I blew an expensive Darlington power tab also . This is why i hate working over 1.2 volts . need more neons for protection . this 6 inch one will be my 1.2 volt power house .
In the picture is a microwave 130 volt oven bulb glowing off 1.2 volts with my 6 inch radio rod.MAx volts is 3 volt dc running TIP3055 with a neon to protect it .

 http://youtu.be/8_0OsJUNlgw (http://youtu.be/8_0OsJUNlgw)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2012, 10:59:34 AM
I got a major improvement in current (way lower) and also general performance by putting in, first, a 220 R in series with the base, and now I'm using 1K and parallel 60 nF in series with the base. Here's the circuit I'm using now, and I just made a video, showing lighting a 110 V incandescent.

I am using more input voltage than you are at this point for the CFL and incandescent, but my neon NE2 will burn using a 1.2 volt AAA battery very nicely.

With 20 VDC from my power supply I can light the 110 V 15 W bulb but very dimly. Using the same 20 V I can get the bulb lit up brilliantly, and in series with the NE-2/diode !!

Also, with no load and 20 V input, I can start an oscillation that is perfectly sinusoidal and apparently over 1000 V p-p, and this lights up the CFL---- but with only one wire connected. I can't get the CFL to light with both wires connected !! What am I doing wrong, or right, or something ? I also haven't managed to blow a single transistor yet.... but I am getting plenty of hot RF burns on my fingers again.....

You all have probably covered this ground before... but it's pretty neat stuff to be able to light a NE-2 on less than 1.2 volts, I think.

The oscillation that lights up the CFL and makes my fingers burn isn't a normal transistor triggered oscillation. It doesn't seem to matter what I do at the base, during this oscillation. The fact that it is perfectly sinusoidal, rather than a pulse like normal, makes me think it is a resonant feedback oscillation rather than a triggered, transistor-switched pulsation.


Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 06, 2012, 04:50:55 PM
Sweet .. your frequency has to be much higher . I noticed with these heavier  wire primary's (outside) using different power transistors the frequency is radically different . Seems the higher the frequency the less it likes shorts on the out (filament bulbs)put but the higher the voltage is and the less the current is . So lower frequency's make more current .I tried using resistors and it don't work for me . I had to double the secondary because it is what is connects to the base .I might try putting a bulb in series with the base today ..

Tk ? what is the diode doing ? Is it protecting the transistor and how can you get sine from half wave ? where are you measuring it? I need to go look at your video . can you post your link .

One more thing . When you are measuring current with a good meter . in my case i have 300ma setting and 10 amp setting, do we really need a resistor to read across? Will it not show a false reading because the  meter already has them built in . this is something i have never understood . When i check current i put the meter in series and it becomes part of the circuit . Some  say this is incorrect and i do not understand how when i was taught the meters have a shunt already?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2012, 06:14:38 PM
Hmm...
As far as measuring current with a DMM: Yes, you put them in series with your circuit, and yes, they do it by measuring voltage drop across a calibrated shunt. This means that the meter will have a series resistance when used as an ammeter: mine has 1.8 ohms series resistance. This can be significant for some circuits, and that's why sometimes you don't want to use them this way. For low power circuits, 1.8 ohms can be a lot of resistance!
Current is measured by digital meters in two ways normally: by looking at the voltage drop across a known low resistance (shunt) or by looking at the magnetic field the current produces (current transformers, Hall effect probes). For DC especially it is almost always done by voltage drop across a shunt but we've all seen and used clamp-on current meters for AC: cheap ones are current transformers and more expensive ones can use Hall sensors.
So inside the DMM meter there is a small resistance, very accurately known, and the meter is actually reading the voltage drop across this resistance and computing I=V/R to give you the current through this internal shunt.
You can obviously do this externally too, by using the meter's voltage function and your own, accurately known, external shunt. Or use the oscilloscope to look at the waveform across your external shunt and compute the current at each instant of a complex waveform.

As to my circuit variant of Lasersaber's one:....  The diode. Yes. Hmm. I could not get the neon to light at low input voltages without the diode. I tried many different diodes and resistors and capacitors.... the circuit is very sensitive here and I even went through a pile of 4002s to find the one that worked the best (lowest turn-on voltage for the NE-2). But to get the sine wave oscillation that makes the highest voltage, this is with the NE-2 and diode out of the circuit. With the diode I only measure half-wave at the load, as you'd expect. The incandescent lights up with or without the diode and NE-2.... weird.

I can't remember the frequencies this morning, just got up, but it can be all over the place. It varies greatly with applied voltage, and it also flips into several different stable modes, like 2x and even 1.5 x some base frequency at times.  I suppose I should measure it, rather than just looking at the pretty spikes on the screen.  :P

Putting in some resistance in the base leg cut my current by a factor of 5 in some cases...... from 250 mA down to 50 mA for example.... did make the turn-on voltage a bit higher but even the added 220R 3W made a big difference in input current, but the 1K+60 nF is working the best now. A .01 uF between C and E doesn't seem to do much for me, but between C and B, or B and E, it can have big effect or little effect, depending on input voltage.

There are subtleties to this little circuit that are fascinating, and it's not as simple as it looks.

My whole setup with this particular experiment was basically to see how necessary the magic rod ferrites really are..... I'm actually kind of surprised that the bead works so well, it's very cheap and low-quality material I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11cBBjjd2qA



Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on October 06, 2012, 11:01:14 PM
@ TinselKoala (http://www.overunity.com/profile/tinselkoala.13644/)

If you remove the diode and the ne-2, you will see that your circuit is a slayer exciter. This is a resonant oscillator that automatically adjusts to the resonant frequency of the output coil. This is why you are getting sine waves. You should be able to light a fluorescent tube wirelessly when the circuit is oscillating. Thanks for sharing your results.

see  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54vdg4DzMfM&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54vdg4DzMfM&feature=plcp)


Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2012, 12:11:16 AM
Thanks, unfortunately not wirelessly. I need to have just one wire hooked to the coil side of the "gap" where the NE2 and diode goes, with the collector side open. I guess it needs an antenna or something. It certainly makes the 1000 v p-p sine oscillation very nicely, and lights a straight tube or a CFL with a touch of a single wire... but not a glimmer wirelessly.

The sine oscillation is at about 245 kHz.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on October 07, 2012, 12:18:57 AM
Thanks, unfortunately not wirelessly. I need to have just one wire hooked to the coil side of the "gap" where the NE2 and diode goes, with the collector side open. I guess it needs an antenna or something. It certainly makes the 1000 v p-p sine oscillation very nicely, and lights a straight tube or a CFL with a touch of a single wire... but not a glimmer wirelessly.

The sine oscillation is at about 245 kHz.


Have you tried just a tube? It is hard to get the CFL to light wirelessly with the circuit attached.
EDIT:  Opps, sorry I see you tried a straight tube. You probably need a higher output voltage (more turns).
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on October 07, 2012, 03:53:13 AM
@ TinselKoala (http://www.overunity.com/profile/tinselkoala.13644/)


After studying your circuit some more, I do not think it is a variation of the slayer exciter. Your base resistor is not connected to the battery plus terminal directly and your added components significantly modify the circuit. So I think it should be considered as something new.


When you are lighting the filament bulb brightly in the video I think the meters are reading 10.3 volts and 1.8 amps. Is that about the correct values (about 18 watts in)?
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Billxx on October 07, 2012, 05:45:11 PM
The oscillation that lights up the CFL and makes my fingers burn isn't a normal transistor triggered oscillation. It doesn't seem to matter what I do at the base, during this oscillation. The fact that it is perfectly sinusoidal, rather than a pulse like normal, makes me think it is a resonant feedback oscillation rather than a triggered, transistor-switched pulsation.

@TinselKoala

Excellent observation, seems the entire circuit is oscillating and tuned to a certain frequency based on a certain voltage?

Just inquiring, thanks.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 07, 2012, 07:23:12 PM
  It appears that your rattler is what is making a difference, similar to Johhy Davro's piezo buzzer idea.
Your Cfl is still not being lit 100% though, even at 20 volts and almost 2 amps. It may be the neon that is helping to keep the transistor from frying at those high voltage/current levels.
  I'm going to try something similar using a 2.5 inch crt monitor ferrite yoke, as I can't get the big rods, nor want to spend that much on them if it can be done much cheaper, or for free.  The E-cores will work fine in any case, but it's ferrite that's the key to being able to use much smaller coils to get the same effect generation.
  I really see no point to being able to have a wireless circuit, as it can only be use within a couple of feet from the source. On the other hand a one wire connection can be taken to light bulbs throughout the whole house, if needed.
  Thanks for sharing.

   NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2012, 07:26:34 PM
I've put a switch and a 3.3 nF cap in series with the neon/diode now. The additional cap seems to make a big difference at higher voltages, but maybe it's just fooling my regulated power supply into going out of regulation.

The circuit has at least three modes of operation. I'll show a video a bit later on today. But when it's making the nice sinusoidal oscillation, the frequency doesn't seem to depend on the input voltage. The frequency is constant at around 220 kHz and only varies slightly with input voltage, but the p-p output voltage is dependent on the input. But in the low-current mode with the NE-2, making the usual transistor spike pulsations, this frequency is very dependent on voltage, and varies from 40 kHz to 60 kHz or so, and the output voltage is less dependent on input.

Then there is the "supernova" mode, where something about the circuit messes with the regulation of my power supply and strange things happen, the neon glows extremely bright and hot and gets kind of purplish or pinkish rather than orange..... this happens during the high-voltage oscillations.

This is the schematic I'm looking at now, and what I'll show in the next video. Thanks for comments, I would really like to understand this circuit.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 07, 2012, 07:38:30 PM
  I also get the very high pulses at times, which changes the color of the neon to purpleish-white, and burns the transistors which can't handle the much higher current, that will burn ones fingers, with hot current, not just RF.  It may be some type of resonance kicking in at times. I get this when I hold a diode and touch it to parts of the circuit. This happens when I use a wall adapter at about 14v, so I suggest to try a 12v battery instead, so that your power supply output  is not being influenced by the circuit.
 
   Here is Jonny's video on the buzzer idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PNgpWUJGB4&feature=channel&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PNgpWUJGB4&feature=channel&list=UL)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Djoko on October 08, 2012, 02:34:49 AM
@ All,

Here my replication on SJR 3.0 using 10 mm dia ferite rod. I wind 340 turn of 0.4 mm mag. wire for secondary and 34 turn of 1 mm stranded insulated wire. It can light up Unmod CFL as well as LED bulb. The 11 watt CFL draw around 1 Amp while LED drink a lot of Amp (7 Amp). Transistor fairly cold when driving CFL but very HOT while driving LED. I tried on 680 : 34 winding ratio but it could not work.
Here my vid. :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMSdXNGgrBE

Rgd
Djoko

 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 08, 2012, 04:19:42 AM
Weird . Mine don't draw hardly anything running 110vac led bulbs . a meer 27 milliamps . Mine runs off one aa battery  and glows a 130 volt fliiament  and runs cfls full bright !  you need 700 or more turns on the secondary and 60 or more on the primary using #12 or # 14 house wire solid copper . .. here is my setup using a 6 inch  rod   700 turns inside #20 16 outside #12  using tip3055 and one aa battery .  draw on this 40 watt led bulb full bright is 27 ma .

http://youtu.be/K7SMrTSklv0
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: penno64 on October 08, 2012, 05:16:17 AM
@gadget
 
You sure on those numbers?
 
I am extremely impressed!
 
Penno
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Djoko on October 08, 2012, 05:24:41 AM
@ GM

Thank for your kind advice. So I may conclude :
60 : 700 turn ratio for 12 V
16 : 700 turn ratio for 1.5 V ,
Actually I already have 2 layer total 680 turn but on those vid I just set for 34 : 340. Sure I will build as yours since 6" rode is very cheap here (less then 1 BUG).

Rgd

Dj
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on October 08, 2012, 06:22:40 AM
one aa battery .  draw on this 40 watt led bulb full bright is 27 ma .


 :)  Great results. Congratulations.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 08, 2012, 06:49:53 AM
@gadget
 
You sure on those numbers?
 
I am extremely impressed!
 
Penno
Penno . Yes i am sure on the led bulbs it is very low .and i have the pot cap i put on here all the way to 4 k (using 4 kpot) it auto starts my led bulbs but i only run one at a time on this small voltage . Now  filament bulbs are sucking power like 500ma with  the pot cranked all the way to 0 ohms and i can back it off just a bit to glow it and its 300 ma any more and i cant see it glow . I am not messing with  this one any more and i have two fat rods i wrapped and one it doing great at 5 volts . I am probably going to case that one too .
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2012, 03:19:28 PM
Well, I finally got a video up with waveforms and measurements.
I am nowhere near the performance of gadgetmall! That is superior, congratulations.

 I'm exploring a high-power operation mode, although it will light neon down to very low battery voltage if I use only a 220R base resistor. But it's doing some weird stuff, frequency-wise.

I'm still not convinced that the rod ferrite is totally necessary.... but then, I can't light my CFL quite as bright as it should be, either....
 :-\

However, I am at least starting to fry some components....
 ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCGyolq1knc

(huh? Four views before I even posted a link?? Should I be expecting a visit from the MiBs soon?)
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 08, 2012, 04:38:21 PM
So TK .That was an impressive presentation.  We have created a Current and voltage amplifier ? I am wondering if a ring's ability is somehow different that a rod's ? One thing i wonder about i haven't tried is, is there any usable voltage on the ends of the rod .Like a wire . unlike a tube or a ring .
In order for those cfls to fire you have to get the filaments inside the cfl tube glowing enuff to vaporize the mercury drop .  This will allow the hv circuit at the cfl base to connect that gas and fire that thing off bright. This is most exciting  stuff to fire cfls unmodified . way cool . I think you will find that the surface area of the ferrite does make the difference it helping current radiate thru to the secondary . I believe if we had a 6 inch wide rod 5 feet long  could power a house winding it with #12 and using #8 as the primary .....hey i can dream . . I wonder if i can wrap graphite rods . I have several one inch thick and two feet long .. any thoughts on why graphite won't work?

I am going to try it with a smaller one 1 foot long and see if it does anything .

Syncro1. I said 40 watt led . that is not correct . It produces the lumen's of a 40 watt bulb but it takes actually 7 actual watts . my other bulb with 50 led takes 12 watts  in a house socket . I have been lighting led bulbs unmodified for a very long time off my large toroidal power unit with a c cell battery for 3-5 days so this is nothing new to me but lighting cfls and incandescence certainly is off 1.5 volts . My tpu can light any led screw in bulb with 1.2 volts and current in it is 12 ma so it is much more efficient that these LS3 are in doing that .
I measure current with my meter in series with  the battery  I do not use a resistor and the way i do it does not seem to affect the operation of my circuits . .
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: synchro1 on October 08, 2012, 06:56:24 PM
Gadgetmall,

                  A rough calculation puts your COP at >1000xO.U. That's a thousand times overunity! This factor would make Nuclear Fission and every other type of energy generation obsolete. This would amount to no small accomplishment! This has me really wondering if your measurements are accurate? I'm hopeing your right.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on October 08, 2012, 07:04:39 PM
Thanks to LS for simplifying everything, now it is so simple yet still more powerful and fun! I would like to replicate too. I did a simulation in LTSpice first and it seems that only if the coils are hooked up in the way below (note the dot notation in the circuit diagram).


In plain words, if the coils are wound in the same direction, then the dotted ends denote the starting ends of both coils (or the ending ends of both coils); if wound in different direction, then the dotted ends denote a starting end of one coil and the ending end of another.


Regards,
lanenal
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on October 09, 2012, 12:23:11 AM
I did a test using a Joule thief circuit to see if it could light a 120 VAC LED bulb using a toroid and a 1.5 volt AA battery. It can, but the bulb is not very bright. A resonant circuit is more efficient (more light for less power).


video >>>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLbfmcjGsQM
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on October 09, 2012, 03:11:16 AM
Weird . Mine don't draw hardly anything running 110vac led bulbs . a meer 27 milliamps . Mine runs off one aa battery  and glows a 130 volt fliiament  and runs cfls full bright !  you need 700 or more turns on the secondary and 60 or more on the primary using #12 or # 14 house wire solid copper . .. here is my setup using a 6 inch  rod   700 turns inside #20 16 outside #12  using tip3055 and one aa battery .  draw on this 40 watt led bulb full bright is 27 ma .

http://youtu.be/K7SMrTSklv0 (http://youtu.be/K7SMrTSklv0)


The simulation below seems to confirm the current measurement.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 09, 2012, 04:07:30 AM
Gadgetmall,

                  A rough calculation puts your COP at >1000xO.U. That's a thousand times overunity! This factor would make Nuclear Fission and every other type of energy generation obsolete. This would amount to no small accomplishment! This has me really wondering if your measurements are accurate? I'm hoping your right.
I don't know how your figuring this but it can't be right . I did say my led bulbs were 40 watts and that is incorrect however . They produce light equal to a 40 watt incandescent white bulb but only draw 7 watt s. now recalculate that and see if it is more reasonable  . to me 27 ma is high to light these because  i have done it before with half that with this
    http://youtu.be/UOPfqsH6_-U (http://youtu.be/UOPfqsH6_-U)  but what is different is the current it produces to light cfl's full on  and glow filaments from a battey cell  . this is cool .

incase you missed my TPU running leds bulbs .

http://youtu.be/3EPx7Zq46MI http://youtu.be/3EPx7Zq46MI
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 09, 2012, 05:01:04 AM
  I've been testing transistors to see if I can find some that will work, and last a while also.  As you can see from the picture below I gone through a few of them...
  So, I'm also making a new coil from an old crt monitor ferrite yoke. I'm almost done with it. Here's a picture of the small 3 inch radio rod coil, as well as the new yoke coil.
  I'm making the replication from this video, as the yoke has been able to do just about as well as the bigger ferrite rod like Lasersabers uses.
   
   Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=e3wifl_FnZo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=e3wifl_FnZo)
   


 

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 09, 2012, 06:13:19 AM
  I've been testing transistors to see if I can find some that will work, and last a while also.  As you can see from the picture below I gone through a few of them...
  So, I'm also making a new coil from an old crt monitor ferrite yoke. I'm almost done with it. Here's a picture of the small 3 inch radio rod coil, as well as the new yoke coil.
  I'm making the replication from this video, as the yoke has been able to do just about as well as the bigger ferrite rod like Lasersabers uses.
   
   Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=e3wifl_FnZo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=e3wifl_FnZo)
   
AWESOME NICKZ !!! . I love it . care to share the voltage input . Its look super cool and i know you are proud of it. Thanks for hanig in here with  us creating new ways to get some power . Some details on how you wound it and if you used just one half of the core ?

Great Job!!
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Groundloop on October 09, 2012, 09:48:34 AM
Hi All,

I have made my version of the Lasersaber Joule Ringer version 3.

I use an air core (see image for plastic bobbin size) coil in my design.
The oscillator runs at a center frequency of 167KHz. I light up a 12 Volt
1,8 Watt LED bulb (real Watt used if run from 12 Volt DC) and the LED
bulb is light at full brightness. I get a little over 13 VAC out with the LED
bulb as a load. My circuit runs from two AA batteries in series.

Added: The transistor and coils stays cool when running, but the circuit uses
too much current from the batteries, so the batteries get hot (approx. 40 degrees Celsius)
when running. So I need to see if there is a possibility to reduce the input current usage.

Added: I have tested the circuit on one AA battery. The circuit did use 0,5 Ampere and the
output was 11,7 VAC with the LED bulb as a load.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: conradelektro on October 09, 2012, 12:07:11 PM
Hi All,

I have made my version of the Lasersaber Joule Ringer version 3.

I use an air core (see image for plastic bobbin size) coil in my design.
The oscillator runs at a center frequency of 167KHz. I light up a 12 Volt
1,8 Watt LED bulb (real Watt used if run from 12 Volt DC) and the LED
bulb is light at full brightness. I get a little over 13 VAC out with the LED
bulb as a load. My circuit runs from two AA batteries in series.

Added: The transistor and coils stays cool when running, but the circuit uses
too much current from the batteries, so the batteries get hot (approx. 40 degrees Celsius)
when running. So I need to see if there is a possibility to reduce the input current usage.

Added: I have tested the circuit on one AA battery. The circuit did use 0,5 Ampere and the
output was 11,7 VAC with the LED bulb as a load.

Groundloop.

The important thing in this circuit is the "electromagnetic flux" in the coil:

When using a big Ferrite core, a high "electromagnetic flux" with a relative small number of wire turns can be reached, which translates into a high Wattage of the lamps which can be lit to full brightness. Therefore we see people light incandescent lamps which need 20 to 40 Watts with big Ferrite cores.

Air cores have in theory no saturation (in contrast to Ferrite, therefore size matters when using Ferrite cores), but one needs a very high number of wire turns to achieve a high "electromagnetic flux".

Groundloop's air core needs at least 5000 to 10.000 turns for the secondary and 500 to 1000 turns for the primary to get what he expects.

With an air core geometry becomes a factor. To achieve a high electromagnetic flux, one needs to put many turns of wire in a small space. That translates into "thin wire", which has a practical limit.


Limiting the current draw of the circuit:

To limit the current draw a resistor is needed between secondary and base (e.g. try a variable 1 K resistor). But of course, when limiting the current draw less current will be available to light a lamp. When trying to light a 10 Watt lamp to full brightness at least 10 Watt have to flow into the circuit.

Many lamps (e.g. LED lamps) look fairly bright when feeding less than the specified Wattage into them. And in some applications the limited light output might be sufficient.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Audio Transformer Joule Ringer
Post by: b_rads on October 09, 2012, 03:13:04 PM
Here is a very simple 120VAC LED Bulb inverter using Lasersabor’s Joule Ringer 3.0 Circuit.   I used a RS (Radio Shack) 12V center tap transformer for the 6VDC and 12VDC tests and a 9VDC transformer liberated from a wall wart power supply.  Power from 12V 5Ah AGM Battery.  Results posted using a 7.5watt Utilitech LED 120VAC Bulb
-   6VDC connection ~ 830 mA = 9.96watt, Bulb extremely bright.
-   9VDC connection ~ 350 mA = 4.2watt, Very nice light output.
-   12VDC connection ~ 25 mA = 0.3watt, Very dim light output.

Using LOA 1.2watt LED 120VAC Fan Bulb
-   6VDC Connection ~ 1.4watt – extremely bright.
-   2 bulbs ~ 1.45watt – extremely bright.

Transistor runs cool on all tests conducted.  I will video and get some LUX readings this weekend and post.

Thanks,
Brad S
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: lanenal on October 09, 2012, 05:01:26 PM
I rearranged the components a little bit to make the circuit diagram easier to read. Hope this helps replication.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 09, 2012, 09:47:05 PM
  Here is a couple of pictures of my yoke core. It has 20 turns primary on one side of the yoke, and about 250 on the opposite side of the yoke of 28gauge. It's working pretty good considering that there is not a lot of turns on it. Transistor is a MJE (TIP) 3055. Running on a bad 12v battery. Transistor is stone cold,  like its not even being used.  NO HEAT, at all.  Showing a 25wtt Cfl, and the circuit will brightly light 65 watt Cfls, also, but not full on, yet.
 

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 09, 2012, 10:26:24 PM
Looks pretty good to me..... I'd mount the light fixture in the center of the yoke, that would look cool!

Meanwhile here's my latest neon rattler, using an inductor/transformer I pulled out of an old TV set. It has 9 turns on the primary. The secondaries are buried and are connected funny, I couldn't figure it out, so I just used a function generator to drive the primary and probed the secondary pins until I found the pair with the highest output voltage. I was able to light the NE-2 using only the output of the FG, once I found the 700kHz resonant frequency.  I'm getting very short spikes that go to 600 volts peak, from the AAA battery, which will run the NE-2 as long as the battery voltage is above 1.18 v.

I still haven't been able to get a CFL to light up using the AAA battery, though. Off to find more ferrite beads to play with now.


Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Groundloop on October 10, 2012, 01:37:19 AM
All,

I did add a germanium diode as shown in the drawing. I also added a small bias
current to the base of the resistor. Put a LED there also so that I got a nice ON indicator.

Adding the diode did lower the current usage from the batteries a little bit. The circuit
still maintain full brightness on my 12 Volt LED bulb.

GL.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 10, 2012, 10:47:34 AM
Joule Rattler powers a Ring Oscillator of NE-2s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HqdlDAeRRA


Schematic for the ring oscillator below. You can extend to any odd number of stages. Flash rate is set by voltage and by the RC constant.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: gadgetmall on October 10, 2012, 02:38:37 PM
Thats awesome guys . Nice Mods to a cool circuit . I have to yake it easy going to hospital for a while but i will be back some time . I still have a lot to do yet.


Tk . that circuit reminds me of something a guy gave me when i was 12 . It was a dark green rectangle wax battery from the military / He was a Navy radio guy and built it for me . It had a tube socket on it with a plug in circuit like yours with a blinking neon lamp . It blinked for years and years off that wax battery . Good memories.

Gadget
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Groundloop on October 10, 2012, 03:01:08 PM
TK,

That was a really nice oscillator. :-)

Can't stop watching the blinking lights......................  :-)

GL.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Groundloop on October 10, 2012, 03:44:28 PM
All,

I have now tested this circuit variant. The circuit is designed to not waste any power.
The base current is also going through the primary coil. The negative spikes from
the high turn coil is channeled back to the minus rail through the Germanium diode.
The circuit overall current usage has gone down compared to the former circuit.
I also noted that the best input voltage for this new circuit is approx. 1,5 Volt.

EDIT: I did a little drawing mistake in my circuit drawing. The bias is at the other side
of the high coil as shown in this corrected drawing.

GL.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 11, 2012, 08:37:01 AM
  Tinselkoala, Gadgetmall, and All:
   You suggested that I mount the Cfl (65 watt) inside of the ferrite yoke, well, here it is:
   
   

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 11, 2012, 10:18:01 AM
@Groundloop: outstanding... the NTE109 is the germanium diode.... equivalent to 1n60, a little higher voltage than the venerable 1n34 of crystal set fame, right? Why did you choose germanium here, I am curious.  I think in motor pulse speed controllers a Schottky diode is used in the corresponding position.... 


@NickZ: Wowsers!! That is amazing, I didn't know it was so big....  very classy! 
I still can't get my CFL to light with both wires connected... it lights about half-way brilliance with only one wire, though.....


And I've made another video of the Joule Rattler running on 3 and 5 volts, charging an external capacitor while running the ring oscillator.... I'm exploring the high voltage capability, but I'm also able to run the ring oscillator for quite a while on two AAA batteries. And earlier today ..... a very weird thing happened to two D cells I was using to run it..... they started sizzling and leaking fluid bigtime but weren't even warm at all .......

http://youtu.be/_0SfDwyM7Kk (http://youtu.be/_0SfDwyM7Kk)   (Still uploading, sorry)

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Groundloop on October 11, 2012, 11:51:52 AM
@Groundloop: outstanding... the NTE109 is the germanium diode.... equivalent to 1n60, a little higher voltage than the venerable 1n34 of crystal set fame, right? Why did you choose germanium here, I am curious.  I think in motor pulse speed controllers a Schottky diode is used in the corresponding position.... 


@NickZ: Wowsers!! That is amazing, I didn't know it was so big....  very classy! 
I still can't get my CFL to light with both wires connected... it lights about half-way brilliance with only one wire, though.....


And I've made another video of the Joule Rattler running on 3 and 5 volts, charging an external capacitor while running the ring oscillator.... I'm exploring the high voltage capability, but I'm also able to run the ring oscillator for quite a while on two AAA batteries. And earlier today ..... a very weird thing happened to two D cells I was using to run it..... they started sizzling and leaking fluid bigtime but weren't even warm at all .......

http://youtu.be/_0SfDwyM7Kk (http://youtu.be/_0SfDwyM7Kk)   (Still uploading, sorry)

TK,

I trying to figure out how low voltage I can run this circuit on and still light one single LED.

I'm using the NTE109 Germanium diode because I have a lot of them.
(Did make an error in the past when ordering, thought I clicked the 100 pcs. but did clik the 1000 pcs. :-)

I have tested this circuit to run and still light my normal green LED at a input
voltage of 0,35 Volt. But the circuit needs a voltage over 1 Volt to start oscillating.

I'm currently working on a new coil (smaller more compact = more turns for less copper used).

GL.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 11, 2012, 06:38:51 PM
  Tinselkoala:
   You might want to try to change the polarity of both the primary as well as the secondary wire connections, as it can make all the difference. Mine would not even start until I changed the polarity.
I also have the same problem of not being able to connect the bulb back to the transistor, without it ringing, or not even starting.  But the way I have it now it does not ring at all, but I still need to put my hand on the bulb to get it to light more brightly. So, I'm still working on that.  Any ideas are welcome.

   NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: TinselKoala on October 12, 2012, 05:33:13 AM
  Tinselkoala:
   You might want to try to change the polarity of both the primary as well as the secondary wire connections, as it can make all the difference. Mine would not even start until I changed the polarity.
I also have the same problem of not being able to connect the bulb back to the transistor, without it ringing, or not even starting.  But the way I have it now it does not ring at all, but I still need to put my hand on the bulb to get it to light more brightly. So, I'm still working on that.  Any ideas are welcome.

   NickZ

I've tried all four possible combinations; two work and two don't. The two that do, I can't tell any difference.

But... I was able to get my NErattler that powers the Ring Oscillator to start oscillating right away when power is applied, by adding a 10K resistor between the base and the positive rail. It also makes it run down to lower voltages before shutting down. It starts reliably now, even with the lowest applied voltage.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 12, 2012, 07:48:29 AM
  Tinselkoala:
  Well, that's good news.
 
   I also have some good news today. I finally got my Joule Ringer to work like it should, and produce the brightness that I imagined was possible. I redid all my connections, and added an earth ground to the positive rail. Now I can connect the Cfl bulb's negative back to the transistor collector, as Lasersaber mentioned. and don't need to hold or touch the bulb to have it fully lit.  The output is so bright it's practically blinding.  I'm lighting my whole house, from a single 65 watt Cfl bulb now, and it's light even goes out across the back yard.. Unbelievable!
 The pictures don't do it justice...


Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Groundloop on October 12, 2012, 08:03:52 AM
I've tried all four possible combinations; two work and two don't. The two that do, I can't tell any difference.

But... I was able to get my NErattler that powers the Ring Oscillator to start oscillating right away when power is applied, by adding a 10K resistor between the base and the positive rail. It also makes it run down to lower voltages before shutting down. It starts reliably now, even with the lowest applied voltage.

TK,

I also found that the circuit did need a low resistance load to start oscillating. But I wanted the circuit to start anyway
because some of the loads I needed to test on was a high resistance load. Some of the Osram LED bulbs sold
here in Norway does not have any DC resistance at all, and probably have a capacitive input. The circuit will not
start at those bulbs. So I used a 3K3 Ohm resistor as bias and later found out that I could put a LED in series with
the resistor to get a nice ON indicator also. Works great, my circuit start up every time if the input voltage is above
1 Volt. Once started, I can run the circuit at input voltages as low as 0,32 Volt. And I'm currently testing how low I can
go before the circuits stops. At 0,32 Volt circuit input, I still have a good green light in my power on indicator LED
and my output LED lamp still has two of the LEDs lighted, but very dim. I'm working on a new circuit and coil where
I will try to make a night light. I will be using one LED only and run the circuit from a 50 Farad 2,5 Volt capacitor.
By using the known "capacitor self recharge effect" I will see if the circuit can light a ultra bright LED (dim) for a
very long time since the circuit only need a very low voltage to run and a very low current to keep the LED light.

ADDED: Could not get this circuit to perform well. Seems to me that a smaller diameter coil with less copper wire
is NOT the way to go in this circuit. So I just connected my 50 Farad 2,5 Volt capacitor to my first version circuit and
will see how low voltage the circuit can run on.

ADDED: My first version circuit did run until the voltage over the capacitor went down to 0,188 Volt.
I have attached the circuit drawing I'm using in this test.

GL.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Groundloop on October 12, 2012, 08:10:06 AM
  Tinselkoala:
  Well, that's good news.
 
   I also have some good news today. I finally got my Joule Ringer to work like it should, and produce the brightness that I imagined was possible. I redid all my connections, and added an earth ground to the positive rail. Now I can connect the Cfl bulb's negative back to the transistor collector, as Lasersaber mentioned. and don't need to hold or touch the bulb to have it fully lit.  The output is so bright it's practically blinding.  I'm lighting my whole house, from a single 65 watt Cfl bulb now, and it's light even goes out across the back yard.. Unbelievable!
 The pictures don't do it justice...

NickZ,

Very nice done! :-)

How much input voltage and current do you need to keep that CFL fully bright?

GL.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 12, 2012, 09:25:41 AM
   Right now I'm using a wall adapter with 14volts, and 1 amp input to the circuit.
  Since my analog meter is not working on the higher mA setting I'm not sure what the circuit is drawing. Tomorrow, actually today as it's 1am, I plan on connecting this set up to 4 small motion light solar panels, that are all connected in parallel. They probably output about 300mA, or so, at 11.5 volts, in full sun.
The main thing for me is that the MJE 3055 is stone cold, as if no current is going through it. So, I would think that it could take even higher voltage/current levels, than I'm giving it now.
 I don't know if the bulb is fully 100% lit, but it is certainly bright enough for me. Since I have several 65watt Cfls, I'll see just how many I can light with this system as is. There is slight ringing now, even though I put masking tape between the two yoke halves. But, other than that,  I'm a happy camper now.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: synchro1 on October 12, 2012, 02:18:13 PM
@Nickz,
 
         That's gotta be the coolest looking light gadget of all time! I wondered where you were headed with that conical ferrite yoke. The idea that it's projecting an intensified field into the 65 watt CFL bulb base and adding to the brightness is fantastic. Congratulations on a really impressive put together! 
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 13, 2012, 06:59:49 AM
  Thank you for the nice compliments Synchro1, I appreciate it.

   Here is a very short video showing the Joule Ringer Lamp lighting my dinning table.
If the video volume is too low, just turn it up, as this camera has low volume levels.
  Thanks for watching,
                                  NickZ

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iTdrjIRiwo&feature=youtu.be
 
                             

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: powercat on October 13, 2012, 01:27:07 PM
@Nickz
That is looking very nice and bright, looking forward to your solar panel test,
I try this myself and found my best results with two panels in series and then connect the two pairs.

It would be interesting if you can run your light of a capacitor, first without solar panels
and then with the solar panels to see how much longer you can get.

There must come a point when one of these Joule lights will be self sustaining and for that to be provable
Surely it must be able to run from a capacitor as most of us know battery chemistry can be unpredictable

This is currently one of the best threads on the forum, no extravagant claims, all the information available,
and good honest people sharing their work openly for everyone to see.

All the best
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 14, 2012, 02:24:27 AM
  Powercat:
  I will try your suggestion tomorrow, of two panels in series, and two in parallel. As the way they are now would not light the 65watt Cfl bulb, fully bright.  My panels don't have enough current output. But, I'll give your idea a try anyway, you never know...
  The four small panels are all in parallel, but can't provide enough current to fully light the big bulb. But, it did light the bulb fairly well even directly connected to the panels. I will do more testing tomorrow with a 12 battery to see how bright it will light the bulbs.

  I don't have high voltage capacitors to try on this system, as this inverter system does have a lot of current output also, not just fluffy voltage, and it will light a neon extremely bright, and will also shock the living sh!t out of you.

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: powercat on October 14, 2012, 02:45:03 PM
  Powercat:
  I will try your suggestion tomorrow, of two panels in series, and two in parallel.

Sorry for any confusion,
take two panels and put them in series then take the other two panels and do the same thing,
So now you have two pairs of panels in series, then connect the pairs in parallel.

When I tried this combination with my 4 big panels I got the best results,
I'm not expecting you to achieve self sustaining, though it would be interesting to have an idea
on how much more efficient these types of circuits can get by recycling the light energy.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 14, 2012, 09:59:32 PM
  Powercat:
  Ok, I got that. It's overcast and raining here today, so no solar panels work until the weather clears, but I'll give that a try.
  I do believe this system is more than just a simple DC to AC inverter.  Yes, the neon lights both sides, extremely bright.  I think that in the collapse of the coil there is additional energy being drawn in.  I can't prove it, but I feel this is true. Especially when I see the brightness of the neon, and the intensity of the shocks.  If it were just a simple inverter there would be much less current, as it gets converted and reduced  to create the much higher voltages. But, there is still a lot of current present also, enough to light a 60 watt or higher wattage bulb.  Therefore my assumption...  I could be wrong, but, I could be right, as well. This needs to be proven, once and for all.

         NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: b_rads on October 15, 2012, 04:30:18 PM
@TinselKoala:
I gave your inductor/transformer a quick try this weekend.  I was able to light 2 X 1.2w LED 120VAC fan bulbs.  The transformer is a ferrite E-Core liberated from a power supply that had eight pins.  Once I found the correct pin pair for the positive connection and connection to the collector, the three other sets of pins all worked at various output levels.  This did not work with the 7.5w Utilitech LED Bulb.  This setup used the very simple Lasersaber 3.0 Joule Ringer circuit using the 2n3055.  I did not run current or light output tests on this setup, but I think when I do that the results will be very positive.
I did run efficiency tests using the RS center tap ac-dc 12v transformer as well as the ac-dc 9v transformer mentioned earlier.  Both of these are the steel laminated type transformers.  The 9v transformer gave me an 80% efficiency in my rudimentary tests.  The RS transformer did not fair as well.  I conclude that the quality of transformer makes a big difference and would like to see numbers run on the hand-wound ferrites. 
Edit: Remember, there is a double set of losses built into this setup.  First is the conversion of battery DC into AC, then at the bulb we are converting the AC back into DC.
Sorry, I do not have the link available here at work as Youtube is blocked, however if you would like to see the video posted it is named:
LSJR3.0 Mod Easy LED 120vac Bulb Inverter – Oubrads

I agree with the comment by @powercat:
“This is currently one of the best threads on the forum, no extravagant claims, all the information available, and good honest people sharing their work openly for everyone to see.”

@NickZ:
The beauty of this setup is that you can run your bulb a considerable distance from the circuit.  Keep the batteries, Ringer, chargers in an area where the ringing is not a problem and run a cord to the light.  This should alleviate the ringing problem you have.

Brad S
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 17, 2012, 09:14:09 PM
  Guys:
   Lasersaber has done it again...
   Here is his newest version of the Joule Ringer incorporated into an all in one device:  SOLN1
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy9wT7Vvkdw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy9wT7Vvkdw)

   He has mentioned that he doesn't have the time to deal with all the questions, on all the different forums, so he has now made his own forum to focus on this,
   Solar Joule Ringer Device, the SOLN1
   http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php (http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php)

    NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 19, 2012, 05:21:53 AM
  Here's a couple of pictures of my Ringer Lamp running both a 50 watt incandescent, as well as a 65 watt Cfl bulb. Last pic is an led running wireless on an inductor placed next to the coil. You can see the 2 snake eggs magnets, now keeping the coils frequency high enough that I can't hear the ringing, at all.
  NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: xee2 on October 19, 2012, 08:49:36 PM
@ NickZ


Very impressive. What voltage and current are required to light the 50 watt incandescent bulb?





Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 20, 2012, 01:40:54 AM
  Thanks Xee2.
   I've been having the best results using a 15 volts, 1000mA from a wall adapter. Which seams to work better than 12 volt  batteries, as it has slightly higher voltage. Both higher voltage, as well as higher current levels are needed to run this circuit. It takes the above input well, but needs more juice to obtain brighter lighting.   I can't light my house on mAs, I wish that I could. The combination of Led, or Cfl light along with incandescent together is more pleasing than one, or the other separately.

  I just filled the 2nd half of my ferrite yoke core with double the secondary winds, and more primary turns, also, but, the frequency seams to be too high. The neon bulb heats up, and looks so bright, like it's going to blow,  (too bright). The other bulbs didn't like the change.
   I'm still working on the turn ratio, etz... not as easy as it seams.

  Brad:  I think that you may be right about double losses when using 120v bulbs instead of the 12volt bulbs of the same version. Need to look into this further. Maybe high voltage circuits aren't really needed.
As Gbluer is able to light 2 watt bulbs once gutted on just 12v, 28mA, and that small pyramid shape led bulb was fairly bright.

                    NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Djoko on October 23, 2012, 05:56:35 AM
Hi guys,

Here my boxed SJR 3.0. CFL 220 V 18 Watt. 1 Amp drawn.
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 23, 2012, 07:10:32 PM
  Djoko:
  Looks like a nice amount of light output. Can you tell us what is your battery voltage,  if your transistor is overheated, if the Cfl has the internal circuit, or not. A picture and explanation of your coil, and it's winding would also help.
     
   NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Djoko on October 24, 2012, 02:39:55 AM
NickZ,

Sure, its bright. I use 12V 6Ah Sealed Lead Acid battery. Runing on around 1 Amp, thr transistor stay cold to hold on with my finger. The Un-gutted 220V CFL 18 Watt. Ferite rod 10 mm dia x 180 mm length (this size only I can get here in my place, primary winding was 2 layer @ 365 turn (total 730 turn) using 0.4 mm mag. wire, seconadry was 72 turn of around 1 mm solid electric wire. On the primary, overlap winding I used. Here the shoot on the coil.

Rgd
Djoko
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 24, 2012, 04:57:45 AM
   Thank you for the reply and information. It is important to know when someone has some success on these circuits, and how they did it. Does that circuit ring loudly?
  I have not had to much luck on ungutted Cfls. I have one that is 25 watts, and can only get it to blink rapidly, without taking the circuit out of it.  I have two secondary coils on my ferrite yoke core,so I'm working on either combining them like you did, or having them light separate bulbs.
My circuit need at least one amp and 15 volts. I've tried connecting two of my small solar panels in series to obtain about 22 volts, but without enough amps it just won't light the bulbs fully, at least so far.
  Thanks again for the information,
                                                        NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Djoko on October 24, 2012, 05:26:05 AM
No ringing at all. I got even brigther light when the primary is 51 turn and the amp draw at 1.250A but I decide on this final set up since it just for emergency. My goal is getting lowest amp draw. Now I build the other circuit with 2 ferrite glued together so I get the wider core area and I just finished the winding, 960 turn of 0.2 mm and 72 turn of 1 mm solid but I heve not test yet. I will updated here once I get tested

Djoko
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: NickZ on October 25, 2012, 08:03:47 AM
  Thanks again for the info. I took the liberty of placing your last picture and comments on the Energetic Forum, as I think that you have a nice replication to show, as well as explaining how you made the build.
 

Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: hoptoad on October 25, 2012, 08:21:12 AM
Hi guys,
Here my boxed SJR 3.0. CFL 220 V 18 Watt. 1 Amp drawn.

As a simple comparative measure, have you tried putting another CFL 220v 18 watt lamp connected to the mains supply (as it normally would be) next to your SJR.?

Just a thought.

Cheers
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Djoko on October 31, 2012, 03:55:45 AM
Here video of my SJR 3.0. It light up 2 CFL (18 watt & 11 Watt) and 3 LED bulb (3 Watt and two x 1 Watt).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtI_XbSbzKA
@Nickz,
Thank for your effort to share my SJR 3.0 on EF.
@Hoptoad,
Unfortunately I just have one 18 Watt CFL, but when I hooked Up 18 W CFL to the grid the amp draw was  120 mAmp.

Rgd
Djoko
Title: Re: Joule Ringer!
Post by: Djoko on October 31, 2012, 04:06:57 AM
Hi Guys,

I just build mini SJR 3.0. I am using inductor from burnt CFL. It contain around 200 turn of fine magnet wire ( I think # 32 or #34 gauge). I just add the 30 turn of 0.2 mm mganet wire primary coil over it. This thiny SJR able to light up 5 Watt Un-gutted CFL. It draw 400 mA. I put all part inside a E-37 fitting.
Here the video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i4kf-jGtck
Here the picture :