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Author Topic: Joule Ringer!  (Read 831862 times)

resonanceman

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #285 on: March 10, 2011, 04:47:16 AM »
That may be true Bill, and I may be one of them. Does anyone here understand the JT circuit and how it works?

At OUR, I've blown away the misconception that a JT functions by way of a saturated core, and I've spent a number of hours working on the problem of "how it actually works", but I've not yet come to a complete answer.

I'd be grateful if someone here could enlighten me.

Thanks,
.99

poynt99

This was posted quite a while ago
It is in my opinion the best description  of how a JT works that I have seen.


Feynman

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #286 on: March 10, 2011, 06:49:50 AM »
That's a good description; best I've seen so far.   But it does not explain what happens when the circuit gets out of phase.

I snagged my trifilar joule thief  and my analog scope today... I'll be replacing the LED with a 1k pot to see how it effects the circuit's scope traces.

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #287 on: March 10, 2011, 08:07:49 AM »
That may be true Bill, and I may be one of them. Does anyone here understand the JT circuit and how it works?

At OUR, I've blown away the misconception that a JT functions by way of a saturated core, and I've spent a number of hours working on the problem of "how it actually works", but I've not yet come to a complete answer.

I'd be grateful if someone here could enlighten me.

Thanks,
.99

Well, that is an honest response and I will give you another.  I, for one, do not totally understand how this circuit works, and what it can really do.  My research and experiments thus far are documented, and others have replicated some of them.  I think Larry is a bit off on his measurements and hopes but, if he shows OU then I will be the first to congratulate him.

The main thing about the JT circuit that has bothered me from the start is that a lot of EE's kept claiming that this is well known and there is nothing new here.  OK, fine.  Then why can I rebuild a simple LED flashlight that took 3 AA's and run it on a "dead" AA that make the light brighter and last much longer than with the 3 AA's?

I have never, ever claimed OU with this circuit.  The only thing I am on record for is saying that I believe the JT circuit might be part of an actual OU circuit.  That is all.

Thank you for your intelligent response.  I appreciate it.

Bill

teslaalset

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #288 on: March 10, 2011, 10:16:20 AM »
That may be true Bill, and I may be one of them. Does anyone here understand the JT circuit and how it works?

At OUR, I've blown away the misconception that a JT functions by way of a saturated core, and I've spent a number of hours working on the problem of "how it actually works", but I've not yet come to a complete answer.

I'd be grateful if someone here could enlighten me.

Thanks,
.99

Poynt,
The Joule Thief is nothing more than what is called a 'blocking oscillator'.
There is a massive amount of information on variations of the concept and the theory how these oscillators work.

Attached is reference book info that I use to understand the basics with very good detailed explanation.
This book is available on usenet, if you are familiar with downloading from usenet.
You also might try this link : http://www.mediafire.com/?6fp0pjli0dbyi3p and download it from there.
Blocking oscillators are explained from page 3-58 to 3-99.

Note: [in my country, the Netherlands,  downloading (e)books is legally allowed, you might check your situation first before doing so]
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 10:46:56 AM by teslaalset »

Mk1

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #289 on: March 10, 2011, 10:49:58 AM »
That may be true Bill, and I may be one of them. Does anyone here understand the JT circuit and how it works?

At OUR, I've blown away the misconception that a JT functions by way of a saturated core, and I've spent a number of hours working on the problem of "how it actually works", but I've not yet come to a complete answer.

I'd be grateful if someone here could enlighten me.

Thanks,
.99

I will give you my 2 cents , both coil have the same potential , when one coil is closed the bemf is induced in the second coil since they are out of phase ...

Mark

Btw the joule ringer is also working in that manner (the bifilar coil no one actually see the need for ) A clues is that with the same current direction the copper and the iron coil have opposite poles so the emf is in the same direction as the bemf of the opposite wire if the pair .

 

poynt99

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #290 on: March 10, 2011, 02:31:30 PM »
poynt99

This was posted quite a while ago
It is in my opinion the best description  of how a JT works that I have seen.

Yes, I think I saw that description quite some time ago here.

It is exactly the notion I started with when I began looking at the wave forms in detail in my simulation, and I believe this is most likely the true "turn off" mechanism involved. It is difficult to "see" all this happening as it all happens simultaneously, so one has to extrapolate what they know into what they see, and I think xee2 has done a good job of that.

The JT is one of only a few transistor circuits that operates in all four possible bias modes throughout it's cycle; forward-active, cutoff, saturation, and reverse-active. I was looking at the "saturation" mode as a possible turn-off mechanism, because appreciable current may flow in the collector, even though Vce may be quite small, smaller than Vcesat.

Anyway, I'll look at the simulation again when I have time and see if I can prove it all out, one way or the other.

Thanks,
.99

poynt99

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #291 on: March 10, 2011, 02:41:02 PM »
The main thing about the JT circuit that has bothered me from the start is that a lot of EE's kept claiming that this is well known and there is nothing new here.  OK, fine.  Then why can I rebuild a simple LED flashlight that took 3 AA's and run it on a "dead" AA that make the light brighter and last much longer than with the 3 AA's?

It's quite simple really. A "dead" battery may have little voltage available at its terminals, but it still contains energy and current can still be drawn from it by shorting it out. The JT shorts out the battery through the collector coil and draws current. When the transistor turns off, the inductive kickback manifests as a high voltage spike which is much higher in amplitude than is required to turn on the LED.

So in effect, the JT is a converter of sorts; it converts a current (which we can still extract from the dead battery) into a high voltage, which is able to forward bias a LED or string of LEDs.

Does that make sense?

Bill, have you ever installed a high power audio amplifier in your vehicle? It works on a similar principle, but the goal there is to increase the power amplification beyond what can be achieved using only the 12VDC available from the vehicle battery. A large part of the after-market power amplifier is the power supply; it converts (i.e. raises the voltage) 12VDC to perhaps +/- 35V or so, similar to what your home theatre amplifier might use.

.99

Omnibus

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #292 on: March 10, 2011, 02:45:55 PM »
@poynt99,

This seems somewhat connected to the topic at hand -- would you be interested in making a PSpice simulation of this schematic: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10174.msg268372#msg268372 ? Would be interesting to see if that's really the same violation as what I'm observing in the simple RC circuit (by analyzing the raw data transparently in Excel and not using the PSpice analysis tool).

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #293 on: March 11, 2011, 12:40:27 AM »
It's quite simple really. A "dead" battery may have little voltage available at its terminals, but it still contains energy and current can still be drawn from it by shorting it out. The JT shorts out the battery through the collector coil and draws current. When the transistor turns off, the inductive kickback manifests as a high voltage spike which is much higher in amplitude than is required to turn on the LED.

So in effect, the JT is a converter of sorts; it converts a current (which we can still extract from the dead battery) into a high voltage, which is able to forward bias a LED or string of LEDs.

Does that make sense?

Bill, have you ever installed a high power audio amplifier in your vehicle? It works on a similar principle, but the goal there is to increase the power amplification beyond what can be achieved using only the 12VDC available from the vehicle battery. A large part of the after-market power amplifier is the power supply; it converts (i.e. raises the voltage) 12VDC to perhaps +/- 35V or so, similar to what your home theatre amplifier might use.

.99

Yes, I agree with your explanation but, I was meaning something else.  What I was trying to say was, if these have been around forever, and are totally understood, why can't we buy commercially produced devices that utilize this circuit?  Like my flashlight example.  More light, brighter and longer lasting on a single AA instead of 3.

I have to admit that the tiny circuits inside of some of the solar led garden lights I have been playing with lately appear to be pretty efficient in acting both as a controller for the charging of the bat. and stepping up the voltage from 1.2 to 3.2 volts.

The most efficient JT circuits I have built do not use batteries at all.  I use supercaps which charge up right away and last a longer time, possibly for the same reason as you mentioned above for the batteries.  I first began doing this about 3 years ago but now, the supercaps are both cheaper, and larger in capacity.

Thanks,

Bill

MrMag

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #294 on: March 11, 2011, 12:54:03 AM »
Yes, I agree with your explanation but, I was meaning something else.  What I was trying to say was, if these have been around forever, and are totally understood, why can't we buy commercially produced devices that utilize this circuit?  Like my flashlight example.  More light, brighter and longer lasting on a single AA instead of 3.

Most of the flashlights are built by the battery companies :)

SkyWatcher123

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #295 on: March 11, 2011, 03:11:57 AM »
Hi folks, I can vouch for mrmag on that one, the frys store near me use to have an ok selection of rechargeable batteries, now they are almost non-existent.
Can we seriously believe with all these high drain electronic devices, like cameras, that people don't want rechargeable batteries, i doubt it.
There is obviously conspiracies to prevent any real progress right down to gumballs, sheesh. ::)
peace love light
Tyson

Artic_Knight

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #296 on: March 11, 2011, 03:40:03 AM »
bill thats a good question why haven't more efficient circuits been used in lights? i would have to agree that one option is a commercial influence such as the battery companies or also perhaps the designers of the lights are not aware of "fad" circuits. i know when i have spoken to ee's in the past they stick their nose up at this kind of research. they say that the most efficient circuits are currently in use or have patents. that is of course another option. perhaps theres a patent we missed preventing the use of it.

i have seen available on the market a more efficient circuit for lighting the 40 watt floro tubes and why isnt that in use? well its very pricey. but guess what they use? a higher frequency higher voltage circuit.

everyone is just out to make a buck they dont care about efficiency unless it translates into dollars.

i for one can see that efficiency will lead to dollars as it will open the doors for many new and invaluable products.

sorry i have been away for so long. ive had quite a bit of research into resonance and tesla and now have a rug rat of 10 months to chase :) shes an energetic one.

stephen

Artic_Knight

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #297 on: March 11, 2011, 03:43:17 AM »
by the way i see you and jenna have been busy. laser sabers batteries and some pretty good joule thief's to boot. some very interesting work. and a thumbs up to laser saber. he seems to be doing quite well.

lanenal

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #298 on: March 11, 2011, 04:40:22 AM »

@All

I am almost ready to post the DIY videos on how to build a joule ringer including the transformer.

I have also discovered that the Joule Ringer will run a lit CFL for a couple seconds after the power is disconnected, even with no electrolytic capacitor in the circuit. It just runs on the coils alone for a few seconds. I will also show this effect in my next videos.  Here is the circuit that I use when running with no capacitor.

@lasersaber:

That is amazing...without a capacitor! I suspect that if you could perfect it, it might just run forever! That phenomenon is certainly very thought provoking, and partly explains why Joule Ringer is running for so long.  Really look forward to the video. Thanks!

lanenal

lanenal

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #299 on: March 11, 2011, 04:42:54 AM »
I will give you my 2 cents , both coil have the same potential , when one coil is closed the bemf is induced in the second coil since they are out of phase ...

Mark

Btw the joule ringer is also working in that manner (the bifilar coil no one actually see the need for ) A clues is that with the same current direction the copper and the iron coil have opposite poles so the emf is in the same direction as the bemf of the opposite wire if the pair .

@Mark: what you said about the iron coil is just incredible, because it simply means that modern electro-magnetic theory is wrong at its very foundation! Are you only kidding us or have you verified it yourself?

lanenal