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Author Topic: Joule Ringer!  (Read 831887 times)

resonanceman

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #255 on: February 24, 2011, 03:20:17 AM »
To the best of my understanding, I have used dot notation to illustrate the transformer, please see attached. And here I would briefly explain how I understand the working of the Joule Ringer. Note that I am no expert, so please excuse my rather brute way of expressing my thoughts below.

Static analysis of the Joule Ringer circuit:

1. The points of interest in the circuit: the pins 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 of the transformer; the + and - pin of the electrolytic capacitor; the E, B, C of the transistor.

2. The circuit consists of three loops (loops will be shown by visiting the points of interest as given above). Loop (1): +, 5, 6, C, E, - (this is the Joule Thief type driving loop). Loop (2): +, 4, 2, B, E, - (this is the Joule Thief type trigger loop, which clearly includes the bifiler coil, as does the next loop). Loop (3): +, 4, 3, - (this is the Big Joule Thief type power loop, which also includes the modified CFL).

Once identified these three loops in the circuit, let's call them driving, trigger, and power loops, and each loop contains exactly one part of the coil in the transformer, and let's call those coils the driving, trigger, and power coils.

Dynamic analysis of the Joule Ringer circuit:

The circuit works cyclically. Let's say the cycle starts at the moment when the driving coil 5,6 has no current.

The driving and trigger loops work almost the same way as the Joule Thief circuit, which I will pass for now (however, scope shots suggests that the transistor could switch on twice in one cycle will be explained later, let's ignore such subtlety for the time being, which won't really hurt much of the understanding of the first order effects).
Basically, the current in the driving coil climbs up flowing from pin 5 to 6, then at a certain point, the transistor turns off, and the current drops to zero all in a sudden, causing great spike of voltages in the other coils. As the current in the driving coil drops down to zero, the cycle starts again.

The power loop. When the current in the driving coil is climbing up, some induced induced voltage over the power coil (from pin 4 to 3), but the current should be tiny by reason of the diodes and the induced voltage being relatively small compared to what will happen next. Next, when the current in the driving coil collapses all in a sudden, huge spike of voltage is induced in the power coil (arching could be observed at this moment), the direction is from pin 2 to 4, causing a brief recharging of the electrolytic capacitor through the bifiler and diodes.

At the recharging moment, by reason of the capacitance of bifiler, big voltage is developed across it, and if the voltage is high enough (higher than the induced voltage in the trigger coil at that moment), the transistor could be turned on again briefly. That is why the scope shots suggests that the transistor could switch on twice in one cycle.

Comments on the bifiler and diodes

From the analysis above, the ideal function of the bifiler+diodes in the power loop is to encourage recharging of the electrolytic capacitor in the collapsing stage and discourage the current flow from the electrolytic capacitor in the building stage (when the current of the driving coil climbs up).  Replacing the diodes by a pot may still work because of the induced voltages on the power coil during the two stages are dramatically different in magnitude.

Finally, this analysis is limited in traditional wisdom, I can not exclude the possibility that some abnormal thing happened during the recharging stage, maybe in the bifiler coil or somewhere else.

Hope this somehow helps replicating.

lanenal

lanenal

Thanks for taking the time  to post your analysis

I found it very helpful


gary

lanenal

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #256 on: February 24, 2011, 07:37:18 AM »
This reminds me of the Micro TPU!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3599.30

Thanks for digging that out and bringing the similarity up. BTW, is that source cap also electrolytic?

Modify: went to the thread and found out that it is indeed an electrolytic cap. The scope shots there seems to indicate that the Micro TPU works at a very low frequency (below 1Hz?).

So, maybe the joule ringer can also be implemented using a toroid core.

lanenal

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #257 on: February 24, 2011, 10:04:51 AM »
Thanks for digging that out and bringing the similarity up. BTW, is that source cap also electrolytic?

Modify: went to the thread and found out that it is indeed an electrolytic cap. The scope shots there seems to indicate that the Micro TPU works at a very low frequency (below 1Hz?).

So, maybe the joule ringer can also be implemented using a toroid core.

It might be of interest to replicators to make it as simple as possible, I would like to post a 2-coil schematic. Basically, the trigger coil and the power coil are replaced by one coil that actually performs both functionality.

lanenal

Edit: some comments are in order.

1. The number of turns are not specified, you may try 100:100 bifiler on a toroid or something, as a starting point, then increase the turns on the right side (with the CFL).

2. If the voltage is not high enough to lit the CFL, you can try put a magnet near the core (this idea comes from slayer who discovered huge voltage increase when a magnet is nearby a big joule thief.

3. The idea implemented in the Kickback Joule Ringer (a few posts before) to kickback the energy stored in the driving coil can be incorporated into this one almost as is.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 10:36:11 AM by lanenal »

4Tesla

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #258 on: February 25, 2011, 03:15:45 AM »
Here is another similar topic:
Gadgetmall's Fuji Mod light CFL from 1 AA/AAA for - 12 hrs +
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6932.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.10
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6934.0

Which of the circuits in this thread has given the longest run time?

lanenal

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #259 on: February 25, 2011, 07:53:23 AM »
Here is another similar topic:
Gadgetmall's Fuji Mod light CFL from 1 AA/AAA for - 12 hrs +
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6932.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.10
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6934.0

Which of the circuits in this thread has given the longest run time?

The objective here is to run the CFL from a small cap say 10mF
for a good duration, say half an hour. If I understood correctly,
with proper setup, an AA/AAA bat could be used to recharge
the cap many times, thus the total run time could be months.

lanenal

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #260 on: February 25, 2011, 07:54:21 AM »
lanenal

Thanks for taking the time  to post your analysis

I found it very helpful


gary

gary,

thanks for the encouraging words.

lanenal

4Tesla

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #261 on: February 25, 2011, 09:24:34 AM »
The objective here is to run the CFL from a small cap say 10mF
for a good duration, say half an hour. If I understood correctly,
with proper setup, an AA/AAA bat could be used to recharge
the cap many times, thus the total run time could be months.

I know, but thought the schematics might be useful.

Anyone try all these different circuits?  I was wondering which one has had the longest run time.

Thanks,
Tesla

lanenal

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #262 on: February 25, 2011, 12:41:57 PM »
The 2-Coil Joule Ringer schematic really looks like a Joule Thief.
If the magic is in the bifiler+pot combination, then one should
replace the diode by that combination.

Really look forward to the tutorial video of lasersaber,
I will follow that and start my replication.
Sorry Tesla, I haven't built that before, once I got started,
it won't seem to be hard to build that as well.

Meanwhile, could lasersaber please also post an "official" schematic in the video,
I bet that will be tremendously helpful for replicators and thus create a lot of
faithful followers (the one posted before with a real-object-like transformer
is helpful  but inadequate, unfortunately, because the transformer is a black
box and nobody knows exactly how it is wired inside, thus some crucial
information is lacking, and I think clear schematics are a precise tool of
communication for this kind of work).

lanenal

4Tesla

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #263 on: February 25, 2011, 09:51:42 PM »
The 2-Coil Joule Ringer schematic really looks like a Joule Thief.
If the magic is in the bifiler+pot combination, then one should
replace the diode by that combination.

Really look forward to the tutorial video of lasersaber,
I will follow that and start my replication.
Sorry Tesla, I haven't built that before, once I got started,
it won't seem to be hard to build that as well.

Meanwhile, could lasersaber please also post an "official" schematic in the video,
I bet that will be tremendously helpful for replicators and thus create a lot of
faithful followers (the one posted before with a real-object-like transformer
is helpful  but inadequate, unfortunately, because the transformer is a black
box and nobody knows exactly how it is wired inside, thus some crucial
information is lacking, and I think clear schematics are a precise tool of
communication for this kind of work).

lanenal

Look forward to your results.  Have you tried all the circuits in this thread?  That is what I'm curious about.  I'm looking forward to lasersaber's how-to video also.

I have bought a fuji camera and a 4 watt cfl.. I'll be experimenting soon.

Tesla

lanenal

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #264 on: February 28, 2011, 01:34:08 AM »
Look forward to your results.  Have you tried all the circuits in this thread?  That is what I'm curious about.  I'm looking forward to lasersaber's how-to video also.

I have bought a fuji camera and a 4 watt cfl.. I'll be experimenting soon.

Tesla

Tesla, Look forward to yours too. It is good to experiment with a variety of set ups, then we will know what works, and what won't, and by comparing them, we might be able to figure out what is the most important factor to improve efficiency.

I built a pulsing circuit of my own design before, but failed in that I didn't achieve some desired result I was expecting. Now lasersaber's great results can be obtained with such an elegant and simple set up, I am sure I want to replicate it. It is definitely a nice gadget to show off to friends.

lanenal

Feynman

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #265 on: February 28, 2011, 08:31:16 AM »
Impressive.

4Tesla

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #266 on: February 28, 2011, 09:22:06 AM »
I found these ccfl kits which include two easy to hook up bulbs that would be great for this project.. I'm going to order one:

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=ccfl&search_type=all

lanenal

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #267 on: March 01, 2011, 03:38:20 AM »
I found these ccfl kits which include two easy to hook up bulbs that would be great for this project.. I'm going to order one:

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=ccfl&search_type=all

That's nice. I'm also buying things to get ready for the replication...

BTW: here people are doing COP calculations of Joule thief, and they got OU results, though they need to recheck and verify.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=717.msg11327#msg11327
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 05:07:13 AM by lanenal »

Feynman

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #268 on: March 01, 2011, 06:13:08 AM »
I think Joule Thief , and now lasersaber's Joule Ringer, are very important circuits for study for solid-state OU due to their simplicity and anomalous nature.

LaserSaber and others:  You might want to try to bring a neo magnet in proximity to your bifilar coil on Joule Thief / Joule Ringer, with the attempt of partially (not fully) saturating magnetic permeability in the core.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/images/2Sgenhyst.jpg


http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #269 on: March 01, 2011, 06:28:48 AM »
I think Joule Thief , and now lasersaber's Joule Ringer, are very important circuits for study for solid-state OU due to their simplicity and anomalous nature.

LaserSaber and others:  You might want to try to bring a neo magnet in proximity to your bifilar coil on Joule Thief / Joule Ringer, with the attempt of partially (not fully) saturating magnetic permeability in the core.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/images/2Sgenhyst.jpg


http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm


I have done this many times with my circuits and, it seems all it does is just raise the freq. which is a good thing because, on my Jeanna's light replication, that large toroid screamed until I stuck a few strong neos on the toroid which was high perm to begin with.  There very well may be other advantages to doing this but I have not heard of them or explored them as of yet.  I will look at the links that you posted.

Bill