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Author Topic: Joule Ringer!  (Read 831867 times)

conradelektro

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #165 on: January 21, 2011, 06:06:39 PM »
@Stefan, bright CFL needs Watts, circuit does not like Watts

Even at 1 or 2 Watt (100mA to 200mA) the CFL is not really bright enough to count for a decent lamp. But already at 1 to 2 Watt the TIP31C transistors in the Joule Ringer circuit (or any Joule Thief circuit) overheat slowly (would need some decent cooling).

The only way I found to light CFLs according to their specified Wattage and brightness is the classical two transistor fly back circuit as shown below. You also find a similar thing inside the CFL lamps when you take them apart.

All Joule Thief type circuits are very hard on the transistor when the energy throughput goes up. There is no good way to adjust frequency, base-emitter current and transistor on time at the same time.

I found that Joule Thief type circuits are fun for low power and low voltage.

One has to be careful that base voltage does not go below ground and above collector voltage (which is easily induced by the trigger coil), both situations are bad for the transistor and damage it easily (especially when running from 12 Volt or higher). Also voltage spikes from the collector coil can cause very high voltages on the collector beyond 100 Volt easily (again when using higher supply voltages above 12 Volt).

Look at this page http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Flyback#High_Power_Drivers , it says it all very clearly (scroll up to read about the "Simple Circuits", which are the Joule Thieves).

I am very much a fan of Joule Thieves, but one has to use common sense when playing with them. There are no miracles and there are better circuits in case one needs useful Wattage.

I like the Slayer Exciter very much, because it is a safe way to build a Tesla Coil like thing. But its usefulness beyond a novelty item is doubtful.

The self made batteries are also very nice. May be not really useful, but educational. Some people said to me when I showed them some battery experiments: "Incredible, there is electricity everywhere once two metals are available". And this is the educational value.

Greetings, Conrad

flathunter

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #166 on: January 21, 2011, 07:22:50 PM »
@conrad

Great post!

Although i do hope for more from exciters/joule thieves/flyback oscillators, i have to admit that what ive seen so far is exactly as you explain.  Thanks for all your circuits and diagrams - they have helped me immensely in understanding better and better these kind of oscillators.

@all

I can get the same ringing effect with a small xenon flash salvaged from a disposable camera.  It will continue for longer than 5 mins if left undisturbed, but the flash through the xenon gets weaker and less frequent as time goes by - the energy of the cap just seems to slosh back and forth, but each time becoming weaker and weaker (like a pendulum left undisturbed).  The xenon is smaller than 3cm end to end, and the starting pulse can be from a 12V, or 9V, or 1AA emergency charger combo.....though obviously the 12V is much more impressive!  Im using the tip31C darligton pair on a flyback circuit that conrad posted, except im using a neon in place of the high value resistor - i dont have any resistors in the megaohm range, and a 1 microfarad cap, as well as a 10000 microfarad cap to power it.   

Heres a poor quality vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jBqg63sYKY

@stephan
sorry - no idea about voltages as all multimetres are broken.  Also i dont know what kind of voltage is necessary to light a xenon.  But im sure there are some clever lads here who do.

conradelektro

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #167 on: January 21, 2011, 07:47:11 PM »
@flathunter

Since I plan to go into fly back transformers (from PC monitors, the ones with the suction cap on the HV output) I am very interested in the fly back transformer you used in your xenon-flash-video:

- The fly back transformer should have two drive coils, or is that not so?

- Do you have the data sheet of your fly back transformer? If yes, I would like to know how they label the pins (names or letter codes), and which pins you used in the Joule Ringer circuit? May be you can give a link to the data sheet on the internet?

- Is the trigger coil (the one you put on the base of the transistor) completely independent of the drive coil (the one that goes to the collector of the transistor) or are they internally connected (like having a common ground)?

- Does it have an internal HV-diode?

- Would it be possible to remove the core of your fly back transformer? Or would one damage it completely when trying to do that?

Greetings, Conrad

flathunter

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #168 on: January 21, 2011, 08:03:28 PM »
@Conrad
Im glad you're interested, but unfortunately im afraid ill be very little help.  I have no datasheet on the flyback - there is a sticker on it with the word SAMPO and some numbers - will they give us a clue?  Ill write them out if so.

Im using pins 1 and 2 (2 goes to collector)

5 and 9 (9 goes to base) (7 is also part of this coil....my multimetre would make the sound that means same coil.  And it'll work with 7, though not so well - perhaps a tap lead)

8 and rubber sucker as HV output

As for internal diodes - havent the foggiest.  Kooler told me that there may be internal caps when i first built a simple flyback/tranny circuit to drive a small jacobs ladder.  This was because i kept getting really jolting shocks - not just like your average HV tickle, but more like a cap discharge.

Internal connections between coils - sorry, no idea without datasheet.

My ability to take it apart it surely lacking - Im certain i would wreck it!  But people who know flybacks better than me could maybe do it.

Ive got another flyback of a much more ''old school'' variety which im gonna try very very soon.

Thanks again for the darlington pair idea - nothing would work till i tried it  ;)

conradelektro

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #169 on: January 21, 2011, 08:25:52 PM »
@flathunter

Please let us have the exact numbers, letters and symbols on the transformer. Is it too much to ask for a photo? I am pretty sure something can be found in the Weird Wide Wonderful net.

I am so (inexcusably) insistent because you got your fly back transformer to work in a Joule Ringer and very much can be learned from that about the connections.

The Darlington arrangement makes the base of the pair much more sensitive to the trigger coil pulses than a single TIP31C. That makes it easier to make the circuit oscillate. It was Bedini who proposed that in a post far up in this thread (or was it in energetic forum?).

I suck in all the ideas I see in the Joule Thief related threads and try to build something nice. Had great fun so far. I am not an electronic engineer, but I learned a lot since I started this hobby a year ago. Using the scope was a big hurdle and luckily it survived my learning curve. Now I want a better scope. May be I find an older second hand monster scope with two hundred buttons. My USB scope is nice, but very limited. Many transistors went to the trash pin, I could even burn capacitors and resistors.

Greetings, Conrad

xee2

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #170 on: January 21, 2011, 09:53:09 PM »
@ Conrad

These are the pins I use on the $4 Electronic Goldmine flyback transformer. There are no standard pin assignments for flybacks, they all seem to be different.


shylo

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #171 on: January 21, 2011, 10:17:10 PM »
Hi all ,I was just asking this in another thread,Xees your diagram only shows 5 pins in use what are the other ones for?? I have very little knowledge about these just that they ethier step up or step down,either voltage or current but, not both.....thanx     ..shylo

flathunter

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #172 on: January 21, 2011, 10:36:02 PM »
Sorry but photo just wont work with my terrible camera - ive been trying to take one but just cant get the letters in focus.  Heres whats printed on it

''159S-06-33AS
  0607.  F    C''

on a different side in big letters:

''1059  S''

and

''SAMPO''


and FOCUS next to a screw, and SCREEN


Its working very nicely now with a long and thin 14W cylinder CFL.  But im sure theres plenty of room for improvement  ;)

Good luck!

PS  Ill measure ohmic resistances on my coils after Monday when ill get a chance to visit the radio market and buy a new multimetre.......and some new caps i think too

xee2

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #173 on: January 21, 2011, 11:23:38 PM »
Hi all ,I was just asking this in another thread,Xees your diagram only shows 5 pins in use what are the other ones for?? I have very little knowledge about these just that they ethier step up or step down,either voltage or current but, not both.....thanx     ..shylo

I have no idea what the pins are for. There is no data sheet. This is how I have been using it.

conradelektro

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #174 on: January 22, 2011, 02:37:31 PM »
@ shylo, flathunter and xee2:   concerning fly-back transformers

There is some information on the pins of a fly back transformer:
http://www.electronicrepairguide.com/flyback-transformer-pinout.html

Flathunter's flyback seems to have the part number SAMPO 159S-06-33AS,
shylo's flyback seems to have the part number SAMPO FE1B4OAT
(but that did not help to find anything).

http://www.sampo.com.tw/  -- Is there a reader of these posts who can read Chinese, one should be able to get some info from SAMPO?

Here at least some diagrams of Sampo fly-backs:
http://www.donberg.ie/descript/h/hr_7692.htm (click on the GIF-image, only negative pulse on pin 4)
http://www.donberg.ie/descript/h/hr_46088.htm (click on the GIF-image, three nice pulses on pins 6,8,9)
http://www.donberg.ie/search?query=SAMPO&wordflag=and&maxlines=100&group=00 (gives many SAMPO fly back diagrams, one can search for other manufacturers too)
They are probably completely different to shylo's and flathunter's SAMPO-flyback, but may be they use similar pin-outs on many products (like a habit within a manufacturer). One sees that not all 10 pins are used. The HV side looks interesting, diodes, capacitor, even resistors.

It is probably a good idea to buy the $4 fly-back from Goldmine in order to know what one is dealing with.

xee2 could you please post the names of the pins, as they are called in the specs or datasheet of the your $4 Goldmine fly-back (to compare the pins with the description at http://www.electronicrepairguide.com/flyback-transformer-pinout.html or http://www.donberg.ie/descript/h/hr_7692.htm). Sorry, I see that Goldmine does not provide any info (what a bummer).

Kooler in the thread "GBluer(Slayer) Exiter" describes a Slayer Exciter with a fly-back that runs on 1 Volt (he removed the core). This 1 Volt operation of a fly-back to drive a CFL interests me very much and is the reason why I ordered ten fly-backs and why I nag people about their fly-backs.

I appreciate all information (specially about the right pins to use) from experimenters who successfully used a fly-back transformer in a Joule Thief type circuit. My guess:
AFC pin (Automatic Frequency Control) and GND pin --> trigger coil on the base of the transistor. May be "horizontal collector pin" could be use instead of AFC pin?
B+ pin and VCC pin --> collector coil.

I should get 10 surplus fly back transformers for PC-monitors (CRT) any day now. Then I will try really hard to get some data about them.

Greetings, Conrad
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 03:03:27 PM by conradelektro »

flathunter

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #175 on: January 23, 2011, 05:02:50 PM »
Hi guys,

I had some good results today with my exciter on 1 AA in an emergency charger. I hooked my 10 000 microfarad cap which powers my flyback ringer to an av plug which i joined to a large aluminium toroid suspended above (but not connected to) the secondary of my exciter. When i turned the exciter on, the cap quickly charged and within 10 seconds a 14W CFL or 6 W xenon connected to the output of my ringer would be fully lit - I was very excited by this as usually i cant get the 6W xenon beaker to light with just 1AA in a charger (not with an exciter, or flyback oscillator). But what made me even happier was that i could light two other CFLs at the same time that stood by my exciter. So i had the xenon and 2CFLs fully lit with one tiny battery. On disconnecting the battery the 2CFLs would naturally extinguish, but the xenon continued ringing for the usual extra few minutes.

Lovely! Give it a go lads - hook your caps up to an av plug and connect it to a large metal plate/sphere/toroid hung above your exciter. Your caps will charge fast!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH_cyX6pSt8

hartiberlin

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #176 on: January 23, 2011, 05:38:09 PM »
Well done Flathunter,
maybe you can draw up a schematic diagramm of how you connected it all ?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

kooler

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #177 on: January 24, 2011, 07:09:34 AM »
well guys
i have tried a 2000 turn bifilar coil and a 1150 turn with no luck..
those were from my sweet builds..
so i went to my 700 turn.. no luck
400 turn.. just made it today.. no luck.. 30 awg
200 turn 30 awg ..nada
550 turn 22 awg.. big  0 ..
50 turn 26 awg.. nope
best yet is a 1 min run then it blinks for ever..
with just a resistor and cap across.. get the very same results..
the same shit we have been doing for way over 3 years now..
i am tired of over volting the small transistors.. and smoking them..
and then frying the transformers.. they arc bad at 10-12 volts..
this project was a total waste for me..
60 dollars in magnet wire .. and the cost camera's..
i never could get the long run time as lasersaber did..
if you use the fuji camera transformer from a aaa battery camera then it will take 15 volts..


robbie

lasersaber

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #178 on: January 24, 2011, 01:09:31 PM »
@kooler

"if you use the fuji camera transformer from a aaa battery camera then it will take 15 volts"

I was never able to get much of an effect out of any other transformer other than the Fuji AA.  I have tried fly back coils, HV transformers, other camera transformers and every thing else you can imagine.  With the Fuji AA I was able to run the Joule Ringer from 1V to well over 100V input with no problems.  No my latest work has been in winding my own large E core transformer from scratch.  It's huge, took forever to wind and was worth every once of effort.  If anybody thought my last Joule Ringer videos were cool just wait until see the next update.


@Everybody

Thanks for sharing all your hard work on this.  I enjoyed all you videos and scope shots.

I have an idea for testing the efficiency of the Joule Ringer that should work pretty well.  On my latest unit I can drive it really hard!  It's transformer is really loud and screams and buzzes like it's the end of the world.  I actually find being able to hear this high pitched buzz great for testing.  It's so helpful to be able to hear the frequency loud and clear.  I had this unit driving a large load and pulling a lot of current off the batteries!  When i got it tuned correctly in this configuration I was able to to disconnect the batteries and let the circuit ring.  When tuned correctly It would run along at the same frequency for much longer then I would have expected.  Then after a little while you could hear the frequency change and drop all of a sudden and the lights would dim a little as it dropped out of this optimum range it had been running in.  This made me wonder if we could calculate the efficiency by just comparing it's current draw at a certain frequency while on battery versus it's run time at that same frequency with the same load while disconnected from the batteries.  If my load is half an amp at 30 volts while on batteries and I disconnect the batteries and it keeps ringing that load for any length of time on my 9000uF Cap then I should be able to come up with an approximant efficiency.  I know that technically the frequency will be dropping slowly during that given time but that is something we can easily account for.

hartiberlin

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Re: Joule Ringer!
« Reply #179 on: January 24, 2011, 01:29:27 PM »
I studied some more the basics of capacitors and what we probably have here with the
Joule Ringer is, that the short discharge pulses are just recharged by dielectric absorption:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption

Dielectric absorption is the name given to the effect by which a capacitor that has been charged for a long time discharges only incompletely when briefly discharged. Although an ideal capacitor would remain at zero volts after being discharged, real capacitors will develop a small voltage, a phenomenon that is also called soakage or battery action. For some dielectrics, such as many polymer films, the resulting voltage may be less than 1-2% of the original voltage, but it can be as much as 15 - 25% for electrolytic capacitors or supercapacitors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_capacitor#Dielectric_absorption_.28soakage.29

Some types of dielectrics, when they have been holding a voltage for a long time, maintain a "memory" of that voltage: after they have been quickly fully discharged and left without an applied voltage, a voltage will gradually be established which is some fraction of the original voltage. For some dielectrics 10% or more of the original voltage may reappear. This phenomenon of unwanted charge storage is called dielectric absorption or soakage, and it effectively creates a hysteresis or memory effect in capacitors.

The percentage of the original voltage restored depends upon the dielectric and is a non-linear function of original voltage.[2]

In many applications of capacitors dielectric absorption is not a problem but in some applications, such as long-time-constant integrators, sample-and-hold circuits, switched-capacitor analog-to-digital converters, and very low-distortion filters, it is important that the capacitor does not recover a residual charge after full discharge, and capacitors with low absorption are specified[3]. For safety, high-voltage capacitors are often stored with their terminals short circuited.

Some dielectrics have very low dielectric absorption, e.g., polystyrene, polypropylene, NPO ceramic, and Teflon. Others, in particular those used in electrolytic and supercapacitors, tend to have high absorption.


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondensator_%28Elektrotechnik%29#Temperaturabh.C3.A4ngigkeit

Kondensatortyp                                                     Dielektrische Absorption
Kunststoff-Folienkondensatoren, Polyesterdielektrikum    0,2 bis 0,25 %
Kunststoff-Folienkondensatoren, Polypropylendielektrikum    0,01 bis 0,05 %
Keramikkondensatoren, X7R                                            0,6 bis 1 %
Keramikkondensatoren, Z5U                                            2,0 bis 2,5 %
Aluminium-Elektrolytkondensatoren                                    etwa 10 bis 15 %


So alufoil electrolyte caps can have an automatic  recharge rate of 15 % due to
dielectric absorption !

So it really depends also on what kind of electrolyte capacitor you are using for the Joule Ringer circuit.

It must be a cap that has a high dielectric absorption !