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Author Topic: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.  (Read 24177 times)

Offline Liberty

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2011, 12:11:42 AM »
You must first see why the voltage is created, the rest is just standard ohm's law.

Would you care to expound on why the voltage is created?

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2011, 12:11:42 AM »

Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2011, 12:38:24 AM »
In a simple homopolar motor you don't even need the Lorentz force. If you take a disc and a magnet the best thing to do is immediately reduce your magnet to its surface current. A simple disc magnet can be represented by a single current loop, seen as the red current loop in the drawing.

Then if you spin the disc, the electrons will spin with it as shown by the orange circle. Now we know that current going in same direction attract and vice versa for opposite direction, thus the spinning electrons have a radial force applied on them. This radial force translate into a voltage in an ohmic circuit. In reality the spinning disc would make many concentric current loops, but for simplicity I just drew one. And that's all there is. No mysterious action at a distance or needing a middle man Mr. Field.

If you want to analyze more complex magnetic setups you need to use ampere's current formulation.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2011, 01:44:15 AM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2011, 01:11:28 PM »
I don't know why I bothered responding. It's not like you have a reputation of constructiveness and open mindedness.

This second personal attack proves that you are unable to reply about scientifical objections.

Quote
For your to lecture me on homopolar theory using wikipedia is an insult. So do us both a favor and just ignore this thread.

You asked me "Do you actually know what causes the back torque in a homopolar generator?"
I replied. And now you are accusing me to insult you because I answered your question! ;D

What I explained is not from wikipedia. It is what the engineers code of practice says, what science says and what I observed myself when I was working with Faraday's disks.
Your double disks is a nonsense due to your ignorance of "fundamentals" (that you reproached me!) and your denial of scientifical knowledge. Sorry if you consider that science insults you because it dismisses your ideas. It is your problem, not mine.
I guess you know you are wrong but you prefer to swagger with simplistic technical drawings. Instead of wasting our time, why don't you waste yours by building yourself your device? And please, let us know only when it will sustain itself.



Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2011, 01:43:49 PM »
This second personal attack proves that you are unable to reply about scientifical objections.

You asked me "Do you actually know what causes the back torque in a homopolar generator?"
I replied. And now you are accusing me to insult you because I answered your question! ;D

What I explained is not from wikipedia. It is what the engineers code of practice says, what science says and what I observed myself when I was working with Faraday's disks.
Your double disks is a nonsense due to your ignorance of "fundamentals" (that you reproached me!) and your denial of scientifical knowledge. Sorry if you consider that science insults you because it dismisses your ideas. It is your problem, not mine.
I guess you know you are wrong but you prefer to swagger with simplistic technical drawings. Instead of wasting our time, why don't you waste yours by building yourself your device? And please, let us know only when it will sustain itself.

What part of "ignore this thread" didn't you understand.

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2011, 01:43:49 PM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2011, 01:53:23 PM »
"In generator mode, the Lorentz force F=q*v.B makes the electrons flowing radially."

Just a question/statement.  Could this step be viewed as:  The shortest (lowest resistance path) on the spinning disk/magnet is from the center of the disk to the outside.  This "path" creates a wire on the disk in essence that passes through the magnetic field, which collects a charge and also creates an electron path for power to flow when a load is applied.

I agree.

Quote
It appears that the magnetic field has the effect of suspending the charge on the area of the disk, avoiding discharge through the disk, rather preferring the low resistance path of the "wire" to the load.
Liberty

Liberty, I'm not sure to understand exactly what you say. So if my reply is not clear relative to your remark, please let me know.
The Lorentz force applying onto the electrons is always directed perpendicularly to their speed.
When the circuit is open, the electrons tend to accumulate toward the disk rim until the Coulomb force due to the field gradient inside the disk (because of the electrons displacement), balances the Lorentz force.
When an external circuit is connecting the center of the disk to a sliding contact on the rim, the force on the electrons is still acting only radially. The electrons are still pushed to the rim, but they can now travel toward the external circuit when they pass near the sliding contact. Therefore from a macroscopic sight, the current can only be viewed as flowing through a virtual wire between the center and the sliding contact.


Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2011, 02:02:50 PM »
What part of "ignore this thread" didn't you understand.

I'm in a hurry to see videos of your self-rotating double Faraday's disk.
Permit me to thank you in the name of the mankind for your great invention!
:D

 

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2011, 02:02:50 PM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2011, 02:23:12 PM »
...This radial force translate into a voltage in an ohmic circuit.
...

It is false when the external circuit is not connected.

You forgot that the Coulomb force inside the disk balances the Lorentz force after the initial charge displacement toward the rim.
It is only the external circuit that breaks this balance, allowing a current to flow.

If you put a voltmeter connecting the center of the disk to the rim, and rotating with the disk, you will observe no voltage (well known result of experiments).


Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2011, 03:10:04 PM »
It is false when the external circuit is not connected.

You forgot that the Coulomb force inside the disk balances the Lorentz force after the initial charge displacement toward the rim.
It is only the external circuit that breaks this balance, allowing a current to flow.

If you put a voltmeter connecting the center of the disk to the rim, and rotating with the disk, you will observe no voltage (well known result of experiments).

You're so over the place it's sad. There's nothing wrong in what I said. In fact you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.  I'm saying 1+1=2, you are repeating "wrong, it should be 1+1=2" which leaves me questioning your presence here. I'll repeat, IGNORE THIS THREAD.

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2011, 03:10:04 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2011, 06:42:44 PM »
I agree.

Liberty, I'm not sure to understand exactly what you say. So if my reply is not clear relative to your remark, please let me know.
The Lorentz force applying onto the electrons is always directed perpendicularly to their speed.
When the circuit is open, the electrons tend to accumulate toward the disk rim until the Coulomb force due to the field gradient inside the disk (because of the electrons displacement), balances the Lorentz force.
When an external circuit is connecting the center of the disk to a sliding contact on the rim, the force on the electrons is still acting only radially. The electrons are still pushed to the rim, but they can now travel toward the external circuit when they pass near the sliding contact. Therefore from a macroscopic sight, the current can only be viewed as flowing through a virtual wire between the center and the sliding contact.
I understand what you are saying.  But I am not convinced that the "Lorentz Force" actually exists.  The physics experiments show a wire hanging in between two magnetic poles.  And when a current is applied, the wire will swing in one direction or the other depending on the direction of current flow through the wire.  However, the wire can escape in it's travel to a place of less magnetic field in these experiments. (Indicating that the wire may just be propelled from or to a magnetic pole.  If you take a magnet in between the two poles, it only reacts with the field of the magnet and does not push off of the flux lines.  To truly make this test valid, (proving the force is on the charged particle) the wire would have to be suspended in between two magnetic poles in attract, where the wire can not escape to a place of less magnetic field, to prove that the current flow in a wire will repel or attract off of flux lines only and not just the spherical magnetic poles of the two magnets in attract.  Perhaps this has already been done?  I just haven't seen it. 
Additionally, if the Lorentz force is actual, you should be able to take two ring magnets in attract and place a current carrying wire in between them and propel off of the flux lines to make a motor.  I don't think that this will work, but I might be wrong.  Perhaps a motor has been made like this?

It seems to me that on the homopolar disk, that no voltage is being generated unless the contact is made on the disk to create the virtual wire.  Because when the virtual wire is created by making a contact with a load, then this wire is crossing magnetic lines of flux, due to the spinning disk, and then generating an electrical potential which flows out to the load.  When no connection is made, there is no voltage being produced on the spinning disk. 

Just something to think about??

Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2011, 04:51:03 PM »
The paradox is by far not solved. I have accumulated a big list of "what if" cases over the years that can boggle the mind. For instance bruce dapalma has shown that even the most fundamental HPG can generate back torqueless energy. The only assessment was for the magnet to rotate with the disc. However as far as I know depalma's OU experiments were performed using an electro magnet. Would the below COP be the same if a permanent magnet was used? Below I explain the potential significance of this.

Measured COP was around 3. Ironically this was not OU enough What I never understood was the argument of useless low voltage output. At the very least one could put this output back into a HPM that is hooked to some conventional alternator.

However the above fact made me think deeply about this. This is all my speculation but I have reason to believe that a ferromagnetic magnet source is not the same as a standard loop of wire. Even stronger, unlike a ferromagnetic magnet, a loop of wire cannot be torqued. I believe the torquing force on the magnet that causes the motor to rotate in the setup where the disc is glued to the magnet will not arise. The force will be electrical and thus have no mechanical effect on the system. If this prediction is true it would mean that you can indeed create a back torque less system by gluing the magnet to the disc. But the caveat is that it has to be an electro magnet with no core.

EDIT: I'm going to have to step back from what I just said here.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 09:11:39 PM by broli »

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2011, 04:51:03 PM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2011, 09:50:12 AM »
You're so over the place it's sad. There's nothing wrong in what I said. In fact you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.  I'm saying 1+1=2, you are repeating "wrong, it should be 1+1=2" which leaves me questioning your presence here. I'll repeat, IGNORE THIS THREAD.

I have not to ignore this thread. I have to denounce an erroneous diagram for the given reasons and say the truth about your 1+1=3. And you know the fallacy, you have obviously no intention to build it.


Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2011, 11:30:29 AM »
I understand what you are saying.  But I am not convinced that the "Lorentz Force" actually exists.  The physics experiments show a wire hanging in between two magnetic poles.  And when a current is applied, the wire will swing in one direction or the other depending on the direction of current flow through the wire.  However, the wire can escape in it's travel to a place of less magnetic field in these experiments.

From what I understand, you are denying the Lorentz force and explaining the force on a moving conductor carrying a current by a "fall" in a gradient of magnetic potential.
This is not what we observe. For example in the tube of a magnetron, the magnetic field is constant and very homogeneous. Nevertheless the electrons rotate while going forward, because they are submitted to a force that is always perpendicular to their speed vector. This would not be explained by your theory.
The Lorentz force is also a consequence of special relativity. In F=q*v.B, v is relative to the observer. If we chose the referential of the electron, then v=0 and we should have F=0. It is false because from the moving electron, it is the source of the magnetic field that is seen to move, thus by applying the Lorentz transforms of special relativity, the magnetic field is changed into an electric field which is acting onto the electron perpendicularly to its motion, as the Lorentz force does viewed from an external observer.
Therefore we see that the Lorentz force really applies both in practice and theory. All is very consistent. Electromagnetism being fully compatible with SR, and also with mechanics, all the laws of physics would be false if the Lorentz force alone would not apply as usually presumed.

Quote
...
Additionally, if the Lorentz force is actual, you should be able to take two ring magnets in attract and place a current carrying wire in between them and propel off of the flux lines to make a motor.  I don't think that this will work, but I might be wrong.  Perhaps a motor has been made like this?

It is important to study the whole circuit of the current. As the magnetic flux is conservative, in such a setup there is always the Lorentz force applying in a direction on one part of the circuit and in the opposite direction on the other part, leaving us with a null effect. It is the very subtlety of the Faraday disk to break the symmetry, allowing for a homopolar functioning.

Quote
It seems to me that on the homopolar disk, that no voltage is being generated unless the contact is made on the disk to create the virtual wire.  Because when the virtual wire is created by making a contact with a load, then this wire is crossing magnetic lines of flux, due to the spinning disk, and then generating an electrical potential which flows out to the load.  When no connection is made, there is no voltage being produced on the spinning disk. 

Just something to think about??

In a sense you are right when you say there is no field before the connection. In fact there are two fields which cancel one another. The electrons really move from the center to the rim because of the Lorentz force (or from the rim to the center, depending on the direction of the magnetic field). This makes a separation between positive and negative charges, creating an electric field inside the disk conductor: thus the Coulomb force balances the Lorentz force and the phenomenon ends with a balanced charge pattern. But this static pattern is viewed as a simple potential difference by an observer at rest because this observer is not submitted to the Lorentz force, breaking the balance. When the connection is made, the part of the circuit which is at rest (not submitted to the Lorentz force) allows the electrons to flow due to the potential difference between the two contacts.

In summary, the Faraday disk is no more than a circuit in two parts, one moving relatively to the other, and we can take the viewpoint of each part to study the functioning.
We can view it as one part moving in a magnetic field where the Lorentz force acts onto the electrons, transforming this part into a voltage generator, and one part at rest through which the electrons can move freely, looping the current.
Or we can view it from the rotating referential which become a static part submitted to an electric field thanks to SR (the magnetic field viewed by the electrons of the disk) creating a voltage, and an external moving part (this at rest in the first view), outside of any field, in which the first part acting as a voltage generator, provides the current.



« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 11:58:14 AM by exnihiloest »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2011, 11:38:10 AM »
From what I understand, you are denying the Lorentz force and explaining the force on a moving conductor carrying a current by a "fall" in a gradient of magnetic potential.
This is not what we observe. For example in the tube of a magnetron, the magnetic field is constant and very homogeneous. Nevertheless the electrons rotate while going forward, because they are submitted to a force that is always perpendicular to their speed vector. This would not be explained by your theory.
The Lorentz force is also a consequence of special relativity. In F=q*v.B, v is relative to the observer. If we chose the referential of the electron, then v=0 and we should have F=0. It is false because from the moving electron, it is the source of the magnetic field that is seen to move, thus by applying the Lorentz transforms of special relativity, the magnetic field is changed into an electric field which is acting onto the electron perpendicularly to its motion, as the Lorentz force does viewed from an external observer.
Therefore we see that the Lorentz force really applies both in practice and theory. All is very consistent. Electromagnetism being fully compatible with SR, and also with mechanics, all the laws of physics would be false if the Lorentz force alone would not apply as usually presumed.

It is important to study the whole circuit of the current. As the magnetic flux is conservative, in such a setup there is always the Lorentz force applying in a direction on one part of the circuit and in the opposite direction on the other part, leaving us with a null effect. It is the very subtlety of the Faraday disk to break the symmetry, allowing for a homopolar functioning.

In a sense you are right when you say there is no field before the connection. In fact there are two fields which cancel one another. The electrons really move from the center to the rim because of the Lorentz force (or from the rim to the center, depending on the direction of the magnetic field). This makes a separation between positive and negative charges, creating an electric field inside the disk conductor: thus the Coulomb force balances the Lorentz force and the phenomenon ends with a balanced charge pattern. But this static pattern is viewed as a simple potential difference by an observer at rest because this observer is not submitted to the Lorentz force, breaking the balance. When the connection is made, the part of the circuit which is at rest (not submitted to the Lorentz force) allows the electrons to flow due to the potential difference between the two contacts.

In summary, the Faraday disk is no more than a circuit in two parts, one moving relatively to the other, and we can take the viewpoint of each part to study the functioning.
We can view it as one part moving in a magnetic field where the Lorentz force acts onto the electrons, transforming this part into a voltage generator, and one part at rest through which the electrons can move freely, looping the current.
Or we can view it from the rotating referential which become a static part submitted an electric field thanks to SR (the magnetic field viewed by the electrons of the disk) creating a voltage, and an external moving part (this at rest in the first view), outside of any field, in which the first part acting as a voltage generator, provides the current.

You have no clue, as I've said many times and as is confirmed by the above text. You don't know what you're talking about. Therefore, you should stop cluttering with your gibberish not only this thread but other threads too where you are interrupting useful discussins with your nonsense.

Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2011, 12:21:09 PM »
You have no clue, as I've said many times and as is confirmed by the above text. You don't know what you're talking about. Therefore, you should stop cluttering with your gibberish not only this thread but other threads too where you are interrupting useful discussins with your nonsense.

You have no idea of what I'm speaking about, and it is the reason of your ad hominem attack. Science is obviously not for you. Your inclination to ignorance due to your innate knowledge prevents you to understand the basic of physics and to make any progress.
You should rather try to understand instead of preaching free energy as a pseudo-science and a real religion among other nuts.


 

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