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Author Topic: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.  (Read 24216 times)

Offline broli

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Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« on: December 25, 2010, 10:32:19 PM »
I don't know why I didn't share this concept before but here it is now. The idea and built should be straightforward. I attached a theoretical but graphical point of view and a 3D rendition of a potential setup. However I have a hunch that the voltage would not be 2x that of a standard setup, it's probably lower, but you still would get no back torque.

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Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« on: December 25, 2010, 10:32:19 PM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2010, 11:22:25 PM »
Nice :)

Btw.: Do you mean no back torque or no back EMF?

Vidar

Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2010, 11:30:22 PM »
Nice :)

Btw.: Do you mean no back torque or no back EMF?

Vidar

This is a generator, so no back torque.

Also the magnets don't have to be glued on, they can be left stationary, which may make things easier if you want really high rpms or want to use an electromagnet.

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2010, 11:30:22 PM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2010, 03:20:57 PM »
This is a generator, so no back torque.

Also the magnets don't have to be glued on, they can be left stationary, which may make things easier if you want really high rpms or want to use an electromagnet.

The contact between the 2 disks is always at rest for the observer. It is the same as 2 separated Faraday disks with a fix common sliding contact at the points where they touched one another. So there is a back torque applying to each disk, as if each one was a solitary Faraday disc.


Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2010, 03:27:46 PM »
The contact between the 2 disks is always at rest for the observer. It is the same as 2 separated Faraday disks with a fix common sliding contact at the points where they touched one another. So there is a back torque applying to each disk, as if each one was a solitary Faraday disc.

Nope, not if the polarity is as shown. The left disc is torqued by the right magnet and left magnet equally and so is the right disc. If it wasn't then the magnets would spin and we would already have free energy from a spinning magnet without any need to spin the conductor. It's called newton's third law.

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2010, 03:27:46 PM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2010, 12:26:23 PM »
Nope, not if the polarity is as shown. The left disc is torqued by the right magnet and left magnet equally and so is the right disc.
...

I agree but it doesn't change anything, each back torque being opposed to each torque. You have nothing else than two conventional Faraday disks, magnetically independant, electrically in series, and mechanically coupled.


Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2010, 12:32:35 PM »
I agree but it doesn't change anything, each back torque being opposed to each torque. You have nothing else than two conventional Faraday disks, magnetically independant, electrically in series, and mechanically coupled.

I think you have the fundamentals wrong. Do you actually know what causes the back torque in a homopolar generator? Or do you assume it's some witchcraft that you don't need to understand?

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2010, 12:32:35 PM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2010, 03:20:12 PM »
I think you have the fundamentals wrong.

You think wrong.

Quote
Do you actually know what causes the back torque in a homopolar generator? Or do you assume it's some witchcraft that you don't need to understand?

As I say that a homopolar generator works according to conventional laws of physics, it is only you who imagine witchcraft.

A Faraday disk can be used as generator or motor.

In generator mode, the Lorentz force F=q*v.B makes the electrons flowing radially. We can rewrite the equation by using preferably the Faraday's law: (1) e=B*(dL.v) where dL is a radial segment, v the linear speed of electrons, both being vectors and their product is vectorial. Here v and dL are perpendicular.

In motor mode, the easiest way is to used the Laplace's law which here gives the tangential force acting on a current element dL: (2) dF=I*(dL.B). dL and B are also vectors and perpendicular.

Now if we loop the external circuit in order the generator disk to provide a current, from equation (1) we get the current I that is drawn: I=e/R, R being the resistance of the circuit.
We put this current I in equation (2) in order to get the counter force which generates the counter torque. And by simply integrating along the radius the product of the force dF by the distance from the disk's center, we get the counter torque.

What you missed is that as soon as a Faraday disk is used as generator and a current is drawn, then the current makes the Faraday disk to function as a motor whose torque opposes the  torque you apply to rotate the disk. Both phenomena work together.

The fact that you group 2 disks doesn't change anything in the fact that the two counter torques still apply to each disk. If you are unable to understand the theory, you should build your "invention", make a real device, and observe what will be going on (nothing new), instead of providing a pretty but useless cartoon.



Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2010, 05:51:13 PM »
You think wrong.

As I say that a homopolar generator works according to conventional laws of physics, it is only you who imagine witchcraft.

A Faraday disk can be used as generator or motor.

In generator mode, the Lorentz force F=q*v.B makes the electrons flowing radially. We can rewrite the equation by using preferably the Faraday's law: (1) e=B*(dL.v) where dL is a radial segment, v the linear speed of electrons, both being vectors and their product is vectorial. Here v and dL are perpendicular.

In motor mode, the easiest way is to used the Laplace's law which here gives the tangential force acting on a current element dL: (2) dF=I*(dL.B). dL and B are also vectors and perpendicular.

Now if we loop the external circuit in order the generator disk to provide a current, from equation (1) we get the current I that is drawn: I=e/R, R being the resistance of the circuit.
We put this current I in equation (2) in order to get the counter force which generates the counter torque. And by simply integrating along the radius the product of the force dF by the distance from the disk's center, we get the counter torque.

What you missed is that as soon as a Faraday disk is used as generator and a current is drawn, then the current makes the Faraday disk to function as a motor whose torque opposes the  torque you apply to rotate the disk. Both phenomena work together.

The fact that you group 2 disks doesn't change anything in the fact that the two counter torques still apply to each disk. If you are unable to understand the theory, you should build your "invention", make a real device, and observe what will be going on (nothing new), instead of providing a pretty but useless cartoon.

I don't know why I bothered responding. It's not like you have a reputation of constructiveness and open mindedness. For your to lecture me on homopolar theory using wikipedia is an insult. So do us both a favor and just ignore this thread.

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2010, 05:51:13 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2010, 06:19:05 PM »
The homopolar generator is another experimental proof showng what dead-end mainsteam physics is in. That can be seen at once -- Maxwell's equations cannot derive the voltage produced by the homopolar generator and they should if they are truly the equations describing the electromagnetic phenomena. To escape from this obvious defficiency the mainstream is foisting on us that said voltage arrives from the Lorentz force. Lorentz force, however, has nothing to do witeh the Maxwell equations, it cannot be derived from these equations.

The sorry attempt by Einstein to derive the Lorentz force from the Maxwell equations (by using Lorentz transformations, transformations both unphysical and having nothing to do with his unfortunate "theory") fails miserably, as can be seen in his 1905 paper by inspecting paragraph 6 of said oaper.

Thus, at present, physics is in a very bad crisis and a dead-end, the result of the lies and manipulations throught the entire 20th century. The only hope for it to recover its integrity is in efforts such as these in forums like this one, no matter how much of a fringe science it may appear to be at present.

Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2010, 10:31:50 PM »
To all whom it's concerned if you want a very condensed and well written document on the history of the physics behind such things as the homopolar mo./gen., rail guns and other similar tech read this thesis:

http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/LongitudinalMSc.pdf

I also suggest to research some of Jorge Guala-Valverdea work.

The above will give you a very good base to truly understand the real physics and nature of the tech.

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2010, 10:31:50 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2010, 11:00:28 PM »
@broli,

Thanks a lot for the link. Brings back memories when we used to gather in Peter Graneau's office at the Northeastern U. in Boston for discussions. He had just invited Assis form Brazil as a visiting scientist. Those were wonderful times. Long gone.

I hope you're familiar with Konstantin Meyl's work on the same topic and the criticism of it by Bruhn. Would be curious to know your take on that.

Offline Liberty

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 11:54:17 PM »
You think wrong.

As I say that a homopolar generator works according to conventional laws of physics, it is only you who imagine witchcraft.

A Faraday disk can be used as generator or motor.

In generator mode, the Lorentz force F=q*v.B makes the electrons flowing radially. We can rewrite the equation by using preferably the Faraday's law: (1) e=B*(dL.v) where dL is a radial segment, v the linear speed of electrons, both being vectors and their product is vectorial. Here v and dL are perpendicular.

In motor mode, the easiest way is to used the Laplace's law which here gives the tangential force acting on a current element dL: (2) dF=I*(dL.B). dL and B are also vectors and perpendicular.

Now if we loop the external circuit in order the generator disk to provide a current, from equation (1) we get the current I that is drawn: I=e/R, R being the resistance of the circuit.
We put this current I in equation (2) in order to get the counter force which generates the counter torque. And by simply integrating along the radius the product of the force dF by the distance from the disk's center, we get the counter torque.

What you missed is that as soon as a Faraday disk is used as generator and a current is drawn, then the current makes the Faraday disk to function as a motor whose torque opposes the  torque you apply to rotate the disk. Both phenomena work together.

The fact that you group 2 disks doesn't change anything in the fact that the two counter torques still apply to each disk. If you are unable to understand the theory, you should build your "invention", make a real device, and observe what will be going on (nothing new), instead of providing a pretty but useless cartoon.

"In generator mode, the Lorentz force F=q*v.B makes the electrons flowing radially."

Just a question/statement.  Could this step be viewed as:  The shortest (lowest resistance path) on the spinning disk/magnet is from the center of the disk to the outside.  This "path" creates a wire on the disk in essence that passes through the magnetic field, which collects a charge and also creates an electron path for power to flow when a load is applied.  It appears that the magnetic field has the effect of suspending the charge on the area of the disk, avoiding discharge through the disk, rather preferring the low resistance path of the "wire" to the load.

Liberty

Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2011, 12:01:50 AM »
@broli,

Thanks a lot for the link. Brings back memories when we used to gather in Peter Graneau's office at the Northeastern U. in Boston for discussions. He had just invited Assis form Brazil as a visiting scientist. Those were wonderful times. Long gone.

I hope you're familiar with Konstantin Meyl's work on the same topic and the criticism of it by Bruhn. Would be curious to know your take on that.

Yes I'm a little familiar with Meyl. But his work is based more on time variant EM, while ampere's original formulation relates to time invariant EM. The force between current elements to be exact.

Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar torqueless gear generator.
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2011, 12:04:35 AM »
"In generator mode, the Lorentz force F=q*v.B makes the electrons flowing radially."

Just a question/statement.  Could this step be viewed as:  The shortest (lowest resistance path) on the spinning disk/magnet is from the center of the disk to the outside.  This "path" creates a wire on the disk in essence that passes through the magnetic field, which collects a charge and also creates an electron path for power to flow when a load is applied.  It appears that the magnetic field has the effect of suspending the charge on the area of the disk, avoiding discharge through the disk, rather preferring the low resistance path of the "wire" to the load.

Liberty

You must first see why the voltage is created, the rest is just standard ohm's law.

The generator I posted above has some real caveats. But I would be surprised if anyone could point them out. As I made one assumption which could only be verriefed experimentally or using a finite current element simulation software. I tried to make the later but it got a bit too complex. So I guess I'll have to go with the former now.

 

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