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OverUnity Prize => Devices applied for the OU prize => Topic started by: hartiberlin on December 23, 2010, 04:34:37 PM

Title: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: hartiberlin on December 23, 2010, 04:34:37 PM
Hi guys,
this is the first real selfrunning device:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlciNOyo_U

Oliver and Valention, 2 users from the OverUnity.de forum, showing their selfrunning HHO system powering
a 400 Watt incandescent lamp for the first time in public
as a Christmas present for 2010.

This unit only runs on Water being splitted and producing overunity power
to run the lamp.

This is the first candidate for 2011 for the OverUnity Prize.

P.S: The small accumulator is only powering the ignition circuit for the ignition spark and only needs a few Watts, so this could also be powered by the output of the generator in later units.

These are the comments Oliver did send me with this video:

The setup is on a trolley and they drive it around the house.
Since they let the camera run continuously,
so there will be no cuts in the video, the camera catches all the
glitches like the blown out
Lamp due to filament failure due to the vibrations of the whole trolly
and the missed elevator.


At the Beginning of the movie  the system  is started with the help of
another steady Anton HHO system.
From 0:45 it will be "cut off" and the whole system runs self-sufficiently.

At 1:15 the construction light is still switched on as a load.

Then the "journey " goes on.

Then of course Murphey´s law hits twice:

1. At about 2: 50 unfortunately, the lamp goes broke because of vibrations and
then the motor runs too fast because of the lack of a load.


2. At 3:25 we missed the elevator .. * grr *

Murphy´s law always applies ! ;)


At 4:55 of the elevator finally comes back and we go with the running motor-generator
4 Floors down.

As of 5:37, the system turns suddenly far above the normal speed and we
want to stop it before it breaks.

No matter.
Without consideration of losses, we continue down the corridor, out into the
open courtyard ..

7:00 - The system is in the courtyard and the transformer moves around bounces against the motor because of the vibration
the engine.

8:00 - I turn off the camera, because I'm afraid for the expensive variac
and the engine and because of the lack of light load the system still runs much too high RPM..


I like the concept of this movie, because
nobody has yet shown a combustion engine running  in an elevator before.

Any known fuel would have clouded the air in seconds and poisoned us.

Also inside the elevator there could not be any hidden cables as some
people always claim..
People wake up, this is a real system selfrunning !

=====================

I will visit them early in 2011
and will have a close look into it.

Happy Christmas to all Forum users and
please spread this video !
Many thanks for your support and a happy and great 2011 for you ALL !

Regards, Stefan.(admin)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: poynt99 on December 23, 2010, 05:27:07 PM
Looks promising Stefan.

So Oliver and Valention designed their own ignition system and replaced the old one? Yes, that would give them more control over spark timing, and perhaps they've created a stronger spark with this design as well.

Is there anything special about their water cell design? Is there a good breakdown of what they are doing on the German thread?

.99
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: SchubertReijiMaigo on December 23, 2010, 06:33:42 PM
Interresting device !!! So maybe the (whole) plan and/or comercialisation is a question of couple of months... If this real Congratulations to the inventor, for this "First" FE device. So for winter 2011 I can go off the grid and overheat my full home, thank you !!!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 23, 2010, 06:59:50 PM
Stefan,
I have a smile that just won't go away now!!
What A wonderful Christmas present !!

And spread it around I will!!

Thanks
Chet

Edit
Correction for spelling [makes Wilby Crazy]!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 23, 2010, 07:08:34 PM
The video you have shown was shot many months ago and been doing the rounds for some time. What is most puzzling is thye have cancelled many demonstratiions for people (some who even flew overseas) especially people who wanted to measure the exhaust gases..
During this time they were also known to have neen experimenting with carbons in the electrolyte or the water filter. A small amount of alcahol in either can produce the result without causing fumes that would hurt them. By having HHO in the combustion they nearly eliminate the all the carbon monoxide so they could run the thing all day inside even with petrol. (that really worries me they think like this)
I have even known of much better demo's where the hydrocarbons were actually coated on the plates to try and fool people.
So Stephan, these guys are fakes and possibly fraudsters until such time as they allow someone to test the the exhaust gas or do a proper validation. if you want to award them overunity money then you need to have the exhaust gas analysed.
The final nail in the coffin for these guys is that the amount of HHO comming out of their cell could not sustain that engine no matter what modifications they did to the engine.
I am sad that given the hard time they gave you that you would be so gullable to believe them.
I am happy to have people their anytime to test with full instrumentation, even at their local university.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2010, 07:23:48 PM
Hi Stefan,

Congratulations on the new development. Now, it's running longer and steadier despite the few glitches you mention.

I still, however, am uncomfortable as to the basic principle involved. As we were discussing earlier, the basis of the self-sustaining run should rely apparently on the electrolysis side. Now, for that to be the case we should either have the Faraday's law of electrolysis violated or the enthalpy of the gasses should be greater than what's known when produced through electrolysis. The latter (higher enthalpy), however, may come about alternatively if portions of these gases as fuel come from the surrounding air. If that's the case then we're not dealing with an OU machine although its practical application may be significant. One may also speculate that somehow the timing is favorable, despite abiding COE both on the side of electrolysis and on the side of the internal combustion engine but is violated overall. However, if that's the case then this can be achieved with other fuels as well, unless the motor causing the gas to be produced and returned back to the engine is some kind of a feedback similar to what we're looking for in thegravity and magnetic devices. What are your thoughts on these matters?

EDIT: I agree with @markdansie that what is shown in the video needs an independent verification, as any OU device does.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 23, 2010, 08:10:51 PM
Stefan quote:

I will visit them early in 2011
and will have a close look into it.
-----------------------
HHMMmm...................
Seems like Stefan has an invite Mark?

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 23, 2010, 08:28:58 PM
@CHET
Yes I wish Stephan well. I also know people who had invites (this video is months old) and even appointments but were brushed of at the lat minute.....especially any mention of analysis of exhaust gases (you cant hide carbon lol)
They went very quiet for a while and were moving to new facilities and appeared to have found some substantial funding, however why now do they post the video public????
They were also more than less kind to Stephan in the past.
What is of most interest to me. to run an ICE with HHo thyey would need 4 times the output efficency they have now. Even with the engine modifications they would have to break so many well established laws it does not add up.
I suuspect they are introducing amonia or some other hydro carbons...but alas I am speculating
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 23, 2010, 09:40:35 PM
Mark Quote:

I suspect they are introducing amonia or some other hydro carbons...but alas I am speculating
Mark
-------------------
[I corrected one "typo" [for Wilby;:-}]

@Mark,
I suppose we can do the Scrub a Dub with the exhaust?
As long as we're using "water as fuel" [and a smidge of this and that].

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: iflewmyown on December 24, 2010, 12:02:23 AM
@ Mark,
Do you have any knowledge of the eleven replications of water fog and HHO gensets running in Patrick Kelly's eBook?? Hopefully one of them might be up for a visit.
Garry
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ElectricGoose on December 24, 2010, 12:18:54 AM
I tend to agree with Mark on this one.  There are many things here that do not ring true.

1)  Those high revving two stroke gensets require a high volume of HHO/any 'gas' fuel to be produced to sustain operation.  That particular cell is not big enough nor is it being delivered the adequate amount of amps to generate sufficient gas volume.  Common sense dictates that this last comment be true otherwise the genset would not be able to run the load.
2)  Running a ICE inside a building is proof of NOTHING.  For those of you familiar with GEET technology, even running air vapor through a water/gasoline mix (as Mark suggests) will produce VERY clean exhaust (but still with the telltale hydrocarbons).  The exhaust is cleaner due to the 'water injection' and has a twofold effect of increasing the octane level (if gasoline used) hence burning the fuel more efficiently and secondly having a anti detonant effect.

You have to calm down and see past the bulldust here.  I believe what they actually are doing is putting a very small amount of alcohol based fuel (like Ethanol) in the water bubbler.  Normally, less than 50/50 mixture and the engine definitely wont start AND this mix requires heating first if you don't have a geet reactor attached.  However, IF you were to make this mix say 80% water and 20% Ethanol and then supplement the air intake with HHO, this will be more than sufficient to generate an overall enriched 'combination vapor' where the engine would run extremely efficiently.

If what Mark states is true (about these folk refusing exhaust analysis), I almost 100% guarantee this is what they are doing.  They are probably waiting for a gullible investor that doesnt insist on tests so that they can continue with the HHO research which is a LONG way from self running by itself.

That's it.

E-Goose
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: hartiberlin on December 24, 2010, 01:23:22 AM
Breaking the Enslaving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5DCzBry5A

Turn up your volume !

Enjoy !

Happy Christmas to ALL !

Best regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ElectricGoose on December 24, 2010, 01:58:23 AM
Breaking the Enslaving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5DCzBry5A

Turn up your volume !

Enjoy !

Happy Christmas to ALL !

Best regards, Stefan.

Oh dear me....  Is the desire to believe that bad that you forgo all reasoning???

Takes more than a silly youtube video with 'feelgood' soundtrack to convice me.  Show the blueprints, submit to testing/peer review and not some flakey video of running a motor inside a room.  I can do that now with the method explained earlier (and more).

E-Goose
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: XS-NRG on December 24, 2010, 02:11:20 AM
Where can we order this Anton Cell ?  :)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: tishatang on December 24, 2010, 02:52:55 AM
This is not a high revving two stroke engine.   It plainly shows OHV on the engine cover and timing gears to get rid of waste spark on a four cycle engine.  I want to believe til proven otherwise.

Tish
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mscoffman on December 24, 2010, 03:10:15 AM
@All,

As I have posted previously, I detect that this kind of closed loop system
where a hydrogen fuel cell runs an ICE engine is a special case of a self
running system. I suspect an ICE engine can be built that runs entirely on
water and air alone, by synthesising ammonia NH3 which has a negative
energy of formation like CO2. This reaction is from standard chemistry
and is not overunity. In fact before the Haber-Bausch process became
the most energy efficient way of synthesising ammonia, ammonia was made
in an engine like process. This reaction could be partially happening in the normal
operating mode of an ICE engine running on high temperature hydrogen with mixed
air aspiration, since N2 is a component of standard air and lacking cooling of carbon
combustion, and fill-in for the energy deficit of an approximate unity gain hydrogen
electrolysis and Carnot efficiency limits of the ICE heat engine. I suspect that
formation of ammonia occurs quite often in these systems and is responsible for
an oder that happens in the exhausts of Myers and the Fast Freddy vehicles.
Whether this is overunity or not depends on whether one accepts ammonia as
a non-pollutant in the environment or not.

This information if true, then it should be part of lore of ICE pure hydrogen engine
conversion. It appears as if this information is being suppressed by opportunists.
This is a good example of why I don't tend to trust the "old names" in the overunity
energy production field. You can not tell what they know from what they say.

ICE engine can either use ammonia as a fuel or synthesise ammonia via the
energy direction of the reaction depending on the parameters of combustion.   

Fuel Cells because of the differences in the reaction do no do this
ammonia synthesis, so I think that overproduction of hydrogen gas
above Faraday volumes should be the only measurement acceptable
for proof of overunity energy production during electrolysis.

:S:MarkSCoffman



 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 24, 2010, 03:20:42 AM
Love the movie!!
A Pretty girl Tossing a sledge hammer always gives me Goose Bumps!!

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 24, 2010, 04:10:19 AM
@All,

As I have posted previously, I detect that this kind of closed loop system
where a hydrogen fuel cell runs an ICE engine is a special case of a self
running system. I suspect an ICE engine can be built that runs entirely on
water and air alone, by synthesising ammonia NH3 which has a negative
energy of formation like CO2. This reaction is from standard chemistry
and is not overunity. In fact before the Haber-Bausch process became
the most energy efficient way of synthesising ammonia, ammonia was made
in an engine like process. This reaction could be partially happening in the normal
operating mode of an ICE engine running on high temperature hydrogen with mixed
air aspiration, since N2 is a component of standard air and lacking cooling of carbon
combustion, and fill-in for the energy deficit of an approximate unity gain hydrogen
electrolysis and Carnot efficiency limits of the ICE heat engine. I suspect that
formation of ammonia occurs quite often in these systems and is responsible for
an oder that happens in the exhausts of Myers and the Fast Freddy vehicles.
Whether this is overunity or not depends on whether one accepts ammonia as
a non-pollutant in the environment or not.

This information if true, then it should be part of lore of ICE pure hydrogen engine
conversion. It appears as if this information is being suppressed by opportunists.
This is a good example of why I don't tend to trust the "old names" in the overunity
energy production field. You can not tell what they know from what they say.

ICE engine can either use ammonia as a fuel or synthesise ammonia via the
energy direction of the reaction depending on the parameters of combustion.   

Fuel Cells because of the differences in the reaction do no do this
ammonia synthesis, so I think that overproduction of hydrogen gas
above Faraday volumes should be the only measurement acceptable
for proof of overunity energy production during electrolysis.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Very good analysis. Coincides with my overall assessment too.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: exnihiloest on December 24, 2010, 03:36:33 PM
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5DCzBry5A
...

Very sad to see this. Pompous videos to impress credulous neophytes are regularly produced by swindlers. I consider that overunity.com is honnest, so I'm very disappointed that such methods are used here instead of careful scientific and rational methods consisting in testing beyond any doubt before claiming to get the holy grail.
We cannot yet conclude with so little evidence as this video. Further proofs are needed. I perfectly agree with Markdansie and ElectricGoose and their analyses and good common sense.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 24, 2010, 03:56:54 PM
exnihiloest,
So you won't be sending out any Checks to these guys?

Oh thats right ,I forgot ,they aren't looking for your money.

WWHEWWWW..............
That was close!
Imagine that ?,you actually want proof first!
What a novel concept?
So there really is a pink elephant in the room!

Chill fellahs ,your wallets are safe!
And the profoundly obvious?
Thanks to you boy's
Safe also!!

Merry Christmas
Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: tagor on December 24, 2010, 05:45:18 PM
Hi guys,
this is the first real selfrunning device:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlciNOyo_U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlciNOyo_U)

Oliver and Valention, 2 users from the OverUnity.de forum, showing their selfrunning HHO system powering
a 400 Watt incandescent lamp for the first time in public
as a Christmas present for 2010.

Regards, Stefan.(admin)

Mirabella has done it one year ago
 
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9099.msg239103#msg239103 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9099.msg239103#msg239103)
 
Harti did you contact the CERNTEA ?
 
here is the last data on the miraclean-laramie process
( sorry it is in french )
 
Quote

 Le mira etait la denomination du bicombusti. 2 ( marque déposée)
En Nov 2009, il y a séparation entre l'inventeur et la personne qui l'assistait.
Les 2 preparait le bicombust 3 et la version la plus poussée le Laramie.
le bicombustion 2 fonctionnait avec 75 % eau et marchait parfaitement.
Il avait été testé avec 60% d'eau et les resdultats etaient moins bon.
A 92% d'eau il marchait trop fort pour la generatrice, et montait trop dans les tours, ce qui a fait qu'il a fallu rajouter de l'essence pour le calmer.

ce qui montre que le rendement thermique est bien supperieur a 25% dans ce cas.
Il etait annoncé 40%, ce qui etait le cas du Bicomb 2.
Les travaux sur le 3 et le Lara annoncait plus de 50% de rendement.

le thermique n'est pas fini et loin de la.

Le top serait un assemblage, plaque elec avec hydrolyse, dopage a la brumisation, reacteur Lara.

Les bicomb et Lara marchent tres bien et avec peu de pieces mecaniques ou electriques ou electroniques.
Ce sont des évolutions du Pantone.
Grosse evolution mais je dis bien: leurs coeurs sont des pantones.

Et tous ceux qui mettent de l'inox n'ont rien compris au magnétisme et à l'apport qu'il donne.

L'essence sert pour le carbone.
En fait pour les Laramie et B3, l'essence est en quelque sorte un catalyseur.


 
" A 92% d'eau il marchait trop fort pour la generatrice"
 
with 92% water the motor run too fast
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: tagor on December 24, 2010, 06:21:49 PM
Very sad to see this. Pompous videos to impress credulous neophytes are regularly produced by swindlers. I consider that overunity.com is honnest, so I'm very disappointed that such methods are used here instead of careful scientific and rational methods consisting in testing beyond any doubt before claiming to get the holy grail.
We cannot yet conclude with so little evidence as this video. Further proofs are needed. I perfectly agree with Markdansie and ElectricGoose and their analyses and good common sense.

 
do you want to sponsor this validation ?
I can give you an organisation CERNTEA
I can give you a university in Montpelier
do you have the money ?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 24, 2010, 09:24:55 PM
@ tagor
no money is needed. They have refused to allow people at the universities or other people to test or validate the device. They even cancelled one validation or appointment at short notice (they were a little worried about the exhaust tests)
They have a lot of information that would be usefull to a lot of developers, however they have not put a case for overunity here. Without exhaust analysis and testing of the fluids used in the cell and bubbler all they have presented to a good motor with ignition modifications using a vapour carb.
What has been there motive...another fishing expedition for funding????
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: tagor on December 25, 2010, 07:14:00 AM
@ tagor
no money is needed. They have refused to allow people at the universities or other people to test or validate the device. They even cancelled one validation or appointment at short notice (they were a little worried about the exhaust tests)
They have a lot of information that would be usefull to a lot of developers, however they have not put a case for overunity here. Without exhaust analysis and testing of the fluids used in the cell and bubbler all they have presented to a good motor with ignition modifications using a vapour carb.
What has been there motive...another fishing expedition for funding? ???
Mark

@mark
 
the french team is in contact with the CERTEA and the university
 
so one day ...
 
 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: sterlinga on December 25, 2010, 09:44:15 AM
I've posted a story about this here: http://pesn.com/2010/12/25/9501743_Anton_HHO_self-running_in_elevator/

And have added that link to our Anton HHO open source project coverage page at http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Self-Looped_Anton_HHO_Cell_System

Merry Christmas, everyone.

Sterling
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: tagor on December 25, 2010, 10:02:32 AM
I've posted a story about this here: http://pesn.com/2010/12/25/9501743_Anton_HHO_self-running_in_elevator/ (http://pesn.com/2010/12/25/9501743_Anton_HHO_self-running_in_elevator/)

And have added that link to our Anton HHO open source project coverage page at http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Self-Looped_Anton_HHO_Cell_System (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Self-Looped_Anton_HHO_Cell_System)

Merry Christmas, everyone.

Sterling

thank you Alan
 
Merry Christmas
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 25, 2010, 10:09:05 AM
@ Sterling
sorry no cigar
they are not open sorced and refuse validations and testing. They are just using people lile yourself to suck in potential investors (although they claim they are after none)
They refuse to give details about engine modifications etc.
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 25, 2010, 11:02:41 AM
@Tagor
I will look into the Mirabella device, I have a good freind (electriacal engineer) with a good knowledge of free energy devices. Any comments I have made in my posts here were adressing Anton projects
Many Thanks
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Lakes on December 25, 2010, 12:08:57 PM
I've posted a story about this here: http://pesn.com/2010/12/25/9501743_Anton_HHO_self-running_in_elevator/

And have added that link to our Anton HHO open source project coverage page at http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Self-Looped_Anton_HHO_Cell_System

Merry Christmas, everyone.

Sterling
I wonder if Apple will claim copyright infringement for using the old Apple ad? :D
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: arkresearch on December 25, 2010, 04:22:36 PM
I hope they dont run the same fate of Brian Prater when he looped his electric lawn mower engine using RV principle ...

His lab was blown with a nitrocelulose missile from a black cobra helicopter ....

so i say hurry up and disclose the schematics and method before its too late .... specialy thoose murphys laws accidents on the road ...

Hector (:P
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: neptune on December 25, 2010, 04:41:04 PM
@ Arkresearch , any chance of a link to the Brian Prater story please ?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Hope on December 25, 2010, 05:39:27 PM
Merry Christmas you all.    Thank you for the video and your efforts.   Are there any replications being attempted?
Don't throw out the baby with the bath water,  how very much we can save just using what we have discovered.
Onward!    Build something, don't just complain.  This mountain needs all us moving, thinking, building, sharing.  An Stephan this does look real to me also.   Mark thanks for the info too.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: poynt99 on December 25, 2010, 06:23:00 PM
A summary:

1) The ANTON cell is nothing too special, and it is an open source design. Still not sure where, how, or from whom one can purchase one.

2) 800 to 900 Watts of input power is required to generate enough HHO from the ANTON cell to operate the generator. Apparently, the generator's ICE consumes about 6 LPM.

3) The generator has a 1000W output capacity.

4) How/where is there enough "gain" in the system to both run the generator and power a 400W load, especially in light of the inefficiency of the generator and it's ICE engine?

5) It would seem that any "gain" would show up as a marked decrease in the required input power, either due to an overunity electrolysis cell, and/or overunity HHO combustion process due to the custom ignition system. Yet the input power required for the 6 LPM does align well with the expected HHO production.

6) So where is all this gain?

7) One possibility allowing for less apparent gain, is that the 400W bulb is only receiving 100 to 200 Watts of power, not 400W. However, even if the ICE and generator were 100% efficient, there still has to be a slight gain in the HHO production.

8] This would still be a huge achievement if it turns out to be authentic. Perhaps the key is indeed in the ignition, since that seems to be the only place a significant modification has been done.

.99
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: helmut on December 25, 2010, 06:59:12 PM
Merry Cristmas .
The Vid was done in Summer 2010.
Oliver and Valentin build this setup to show that there is no hidden Cable or extern source of power supply.
Until now Oliver did refuse to show the Vid to others , because he want produce a better Vid, where the Lamp did not brake.
The problem with tis setup was, that the rpms are very difficult to regulate.
There is no carburator in use. The hho Gas goes directly to the flange near the inlet valve. The only way to regulate the speed is by regulate the elektrolyser ( Anton ). Alternative one can adjust the spark timing.
One can not feed the Gas into the Carburator. Other ways to realise a speed control are in development.
If one is interestet to have one of this Generators, it is no problem to do a replication. All Informations are free available via overu.....de Forum.
The cost for such chinese Generator are not to high.
Some replication are in use all ready.
 Feel free to read in the german Forum, or ask your Questions.

But if one came to blame Oliver or Valetin to be cheaters ,or blaming for fakes, better stay here and do not waist our time.
Such fellows we have enough in Germany.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvSbJ9mG4Tk

Helmut

p.s.  here is a better link     
http://www.youtube.com/user/banditforfreedom
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 25, 2010, 07:20:14 PM
Helmut
Good to see you !!
You put a big smile on my face with that post!
Happy Holidays !
And so it begins!
Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 25, 2010, 08:10:48 PM
Oliver and Valentin build this setup to show that there is no hidden Cable or extern source of power supply.
Until now Oliver did refuse to show the Vid to others The problem with tis setup was, that the rpms are very difficult to regulate.
There is no carburator in use. The hho Gas goes directly to the flange near the inlet valve. The only way to regulate the speed is by regulate the elektrolyser ( Anton ). Alternative one can adjust the spark timing.
If one is interestet to have one of this Generators, it is no problem to do a replication. All Informations are free available via overu.....de Forum.
The cost for such chinese Generator are not to high.
Some replication are in use all ready.
 Feel free to read in the german Forum, or ask your Questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvSbJ9mG4Tk

Helmut

http://www.youtube.com/user/banditforfreedom

Thanks for the reply...so there are others running closed looped? If so where or how many?
Many people have a copy of this video already (I have one for several months)
So all tnstructions are avaialvle including all engine modifications open source?
I am happy to be made a fool of but these questions remain, especially when they are so reluctant to have basic tests done like exhaust gas analysis.
Thanks for your post , all information is always most welcome, I gather you have direct contact with them?
Kind regards
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: helmut on December 25, 2010, 09:36:08 PM
Thanks for the reply...so there are others running closed looped? If so where or how many?
Many people have a copy of this video already (I have one for several months)
So all tnstructions are avaialvle including all engine modifications open source?
I am happy to be made a fool of but these questions remain, especially when they are so reluctant to have basic tests done like exhaust gas analysis.
Thanks for your post , all information is always most welcome, I gather you have direct contact with them?
Kind regards
Mark

Hello Mark
Perhaps a exhaust gas analysis will be made one time. We know that water is the only source of energy. Shure one will find some carbon  because of the lubrication oil. But now there is more development important to build a working speed control. A second problem ist the ignition system. Some members are working with different systems to switch off the waistet sparc.
There are a lot of other vids.
I guess they will be kept hidden until the system is fit for public presentation. I know from guys in austria, they have a working Generator as well.
As next the team is working on another scale, where the Motor has a bigger flywheel , and a professional ignition system.
But every step needs its time
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 25, 2010, 09:50:27 PM
Hi again,
i agree some carbons in the exhaust from oil, but how do you know water is the only source.
Mant people including myself have had engines running on HHO for years , not that hard to change ignition.
So is the austrian one closed loop?
many thanks.
I have dealt with many people making many claims for many years. Soome have had a lot of publicity and others are unknown...but I have yet to have one seen closed looped that have alloud people to do basic tests.
It is so easy to cheat...you can even coat the plates with some oil or add alcahol to the wateri n the bubble. Not hard to do at all.
I hope the Anton group are sincere but there reluctance to allow others to do basic measurements is of a great concern to me.
I was excited when I first saw the video, but as time went by it asked more questions than answered.
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: drspark on December 26, 2010, 01:06:36 AM
Hi group,

Merry Christmas

Regarding the little generator;

Looks like all they are missing is a stock *LP Demand regulator* and the breather below the air filter. Remount the carburetor, for its governor linked throttle butterfly valve. Use a stock LP breather and stock LP mix valve. Last will be a small pressure chamber on the cell side of the demand reg. Maybe a pressure limit switch. At 12 inches of water???

The Pressure chamber could be made from a empty hand torch bottle, Clear plastic Jar or a Very small tire inner tube.  A rigid chamber will make the limit switch easy, and eliminate the variac.

Where is info on their cell and driver circuit?

Thanks!
DrSpark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: blavatsky on December 26, 2010, 01:07:34 AM
Where can I purchase the ANTON CELL here in AUSTRALIA ?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: drspark on December 26, 2010, 03:29:16 AM
With a sensor and magnet on the OHV Rocker - intake valve and a delay circuit you can do away with the gears..
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2010, 04:35:23 AM
Oliver and Valentin are already working together with a testing facility and
will publish their results from a professional motor teststand in the upcoming new year.

Also it will be filmed all by a professional filmteam I was told.

As you can see from their Youtube channel at:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia
they are doing it all very scientifically and use great measurement tools.

To the skeptics:

HHO does not burn,
it DOES DETONATE, this is very different versus a gasoline-air mixture,
thus it produces much more mechanical output.

Here is a supportive email from engineer Les Banki,
who is working on great HHO engine modification circuits:

Hi Stefan,

As for me, I ran a brand new (never had petrol in it!) 250cc engine 100% on water about 16 years ago.
(Several people were present and it was also video taped.)
Mind you, it was NOT a self running set up.
It was simply done to prove the point.
I knew it was a very, VERY, VERY crude and inefficient electrolyzer system but it still WORKED!

(You should have heard the various comments around me prior to that:  "Ha, ha....What an idiot Les is!  He thinks that an engine can run on water!", etc., etc.  Those very same people are no longer rubbishing the idea (or me) but are TRYING to do the same as I did all those years ago.)

Others, on the other hand, pointed out that I obviously had the technology already then to do "boosting".
Sure, I knew that too.
However, my attitude was (and still is, to this very day!) that:

I do not want to see even a single drop of petrol anywhere in or near the engine!!!!
In other words: for me, WATER or NOTHING!

OK.

I was out of that 'game' for more than 10 years but started up again about 4 years ago.
This time, I have a much more refined technology and I have designed (from scratch) a COMPLETE ECU
(Engine Control Unit) for single cylinder generator engines.

Why this was/is necessary is explained in one of my articles.

I have just finished the NEW Ignition/Injection control section AND the automatic RPM control which will bring the engine speed from idle to the correct RPM where the generator delivers approx. 240V at 50Hz and hold it there (but ONLY with the present load connected)!!!

Loosing the 400W load (lamp) in their set-up, Oliver & Valentine experienced a 'run-away' condition which just confirms the obvious need for RPM control.
Precise RPM control can only be achieved by FUEL INJECTION and a feed-back loop.  Period.

Yes, our generator engines are going to be fuel injected, (with Hydroxy ONLY)!

(And yes, I am now working on a design of just such a feed-back loop which will COMPLETE the ECU design!)

Those who have known me for many years will remember what I have been saying for years:

The key to success with engines running on HHO ONLY is two fold:
1.  Generate ENOUGH quality Hydroxy (HHO)
2.  Engine MANAGEMENT!!!

I am NOT the only one who is aware of this.

It should be obvious even to "blind Freddy" that Oliver and Valentine generate ENOUGH HHO.
I am sure you already know that only the usual, very vocal MORONS (saboteurs, paid or otherwise!, who have infested EVERY Forum, including yours!) kick, scream and argue, trying desperately to discredit!!
(This is the main reason why I hardly ever post in your Forum.  I am NOT going to waste my time and energy to argue with "dead beat morons".)

For the past 2 - 3 years, all my designs (circuit diagrams, circuit descriptions and pcb layouts) have been freely available for download from a couple of Forums on Internet.

I have now re-designed some of those circuits and those files will be replaced.
I also offer VERY detailed circuit descriptions (for EVERY circuit) and general articles which I have written to educate those who are interested in this technology.
(My writings alone are over 100 pages!)
There is still more work to be done.  Designing the printed circuit boards for the latest circuits, for example.
But that won't take very long.

About 6 weeks ago I bought a brand new 9kW Ducar (top brand!) petrol generator.  (electric and remote start!)
I also have 2 other generators, 1800W and 2000W.
All these will be used for testing my designs.

Yes, Stefan, I don't deny that I consider myself to be a TOP electronic design engineer!
(If I wasn't, I would never be able to design the ECU!)
Think about it: only engine manufacturer's engineers are engaged in this kind of work!

Well, enough 'raving'.
You may wonder why I am telling you all this.  (I leave it to you to figure it out!  :-) :-) )
Suffice to say that my work is free for anyone to use, private or commercial!
I would be very pleased if some people find my contributions useful!

I just hope to have enough time left in this 73 years old body to finish this project!
That is all I ask for.

Btw, if you see some benefit from publishing this email (or part of it) in your Forum, you are welcome to do so.

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 26, 2010, 07:18:49 AM
Hi group,

Merry Christmas

Regarding the little generator;

Looks like all they are missing is a stock *LP Demand regulator* and the breather below the air filter. Remount the carburetor, for its governor linked throttle butterfly valve. Use a stock LP breather and stock LP mix valve. Last will be a small pressure chamber on the cell side of the demand reg. Maybe a pressure limit switch. At 12 inches of water???

The Pressure chamber could be made from a empty hand torch bottle, Clear plastic Jar or a Very small tire inner tube.  A rigid chamber will make the limit switch easy, and eliminate the variac.

Where is info on their cell and driver circuit?

Thanks!

No speed hardware required! Engine speed easy regulated using Phase Comparator and PWM back to the cell.  The ignition sensor provides the engine timing.  Its a 5 component PCB! if the engine slows PWM increases, if too fast PWM slows. Only requires initial matching of generator to mid way point for the cell.



Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 26, 2010, 07:22:51 AM
With a sensor and magnet on the OHV Rocker - intake valve and a delay circuit you can do away with the gears..

Whats wrong with existing ignition with a Divide by 2 Clock and 555 to give adjustable mono shot adjustable delay on a pot to advance timing? Now you got blanked spark as required and advanced ignition. Parts = 2 off 555 and div counter.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 26, 2010, 07:25:02 AM
No need for 50 amp power supplies to start the system. How about ONE motor run cap and ONE bridge diode connect direct to wall plug now you got a 3kw DC starting PSU for about 8 bucks.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 26, 2010, 07:50:30 AM
@ Arkresearch , any chance of a link to the Brian Prater story please ?

What happened to Brian is real i reported here a couple of times this happened about 4 years ago now while working on LOOPED RV's.  You know the things that people here say are IMPOSSIBLE like looping gas engine etc with HHO. Maybe with 2011 its time for a wakeup call.

He used to post here till his lab outbuildings was fired at by a rocket from black helicopter, neighbors and some witness see this happen  and yes MIB are real. Brian had to go into hiding for 2 years and even leave the country for a while after losing everything. It took a few thoughtful people to send him some money via Paypal and western union before he almost died of hunger on the run. There are NO  CNN or ABC news page links if thats what you looking for. So given the chance these HHO guys will see the same fate OR paid a nice sum of cash to just go quite. Its no joke there are 100 others just like him in the last 50 years that had met an untimely death. In NZ in 2006 guy had 100% water powered motor bikes.  Front news  everywhere. Was starting to tool up for manufacturing and one of the partners VANISHED after a MIB visit and the other was shit scared and paid off and now the company said sorry we only do 5% fuel savers.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: The Observer on December 26, 2010, 08:05:22 AM
Stefan,

What an amazing post.
Thankyou !

Les said,
Quote
I am sure you already know that only the usual, very vocal MORONS
(saboteurs, paid or otherwise!, who have infested EVERY Forum, including yours!)
kick, scream and argue, trying desperately to discredit!!
--> This is the main reason why I hardly ever post in your Forum.  <--
(I am NOT going to waste my time and energy to argue with "dead beat morons".)

You should know that an accredited Physics Professor offered his services today, and lasted a whole 12 hours before having enough of the BS.
Start here for an overview of the unwarranted attacks that leads to him saying 'goodbye'.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8825.1590

                Are there any rules of forum conduct?
                           If so, where are they?
                          If not, should there be?

Common logic dictates that we have a right that civility be maintained, even in an electronic meeting place.
If virtually all of a member's posts are negative insults and attacks that have nothing to with the subject,
                                                                                                                                         why do you/we want them here?

I am very sure all honest and genuine members share an interest in this matter.
I do understand it is hard to be the judge sometimes.

However, if you don't address this in some way, it is obvious that there is outside pressure that makes you unable to act.
Please comment if you can.

GodSpeed,
                The Observer

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 26, 2010, 08:20:47 AM
Accredited physics professor? You gotta be kiddin'.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: TommeyLReed on December 26, 2010, 11:11:14 AM
These claims are just that, there are no real testing done to even have this on a YouTube channel. Its sad to see Overunity.com allow these claims in the first place. Just makes you all look like a total scam.
As running a engine on hydrogen, I did not have to adjust any timing when running my engine on wood bio mass. People need to rethink there understanding of HHO....

Running a engine on wood gas...

http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyNow1?feature=mhum#p/u/3/8_jbJySB5fo

Tommey Reed
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 26, 2010, 12:18:14 PM
400 watts? That's it? What a joke! I did the work YEARS ago and you people are still in the infancy and you actually think you have something. I ran a tractor off water when I was living in Florida, and my shop is soon to be powered by a generator I built using Tesla's research with an excess output of over 2.7kwh at high freqency. It weighs in at under 20 pounds with a COP of 23.7, and no bigger than a shoe box.

And you think 400 watts is something? Stop putting second rate crap on the scene and MAYBE the energy revolution will stand. Your second rate crap gets the first rate stuff ignored when they get tired of dealing with people like you.

NO, I will not release the plans.
NO, I will not answer your questions.
NO, you can not see it until I'm dam good and ready.
NO, you will not be allowed to touch it in any way, shape or form.
YES, Investment will gain you ALL of these privileges.


And yes, I am well aware this post may get me banned, and I don't give a flying fuck. I had better than what your doing over 3 years ago. Anything you have to say will fall on deaf ears as you are not advanced enough to realized just how far you have fallen.

If you REALLY think 400 watts is something, do us REAL researcher a favor and jump in a vat of hydrochloric acid.

For any REAL people out there, my email address is babygirl8181980@gmail.com

YES, I am aware the chances of people emailing me are slim to none. (betting on it)
YES, I report spam, scams, and fraud to the respective ISP, as well as the FTC, and the FCC.
YES, I have pictures (mostly for insurance purposes), but like Tesla, most of my best work goes undocumented for security reasons. (military brat)

And NO, I don't give 2 shits if you believe me or not. I'm sick of getting "updates" that are 3-5 years BEHIND me.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ThereIsNoSpoon2 on December 26, 2010, 12:32:43 PM
If I were to build a system like shown I would introduce a little more sophisticated system then just a basic RPM control unit.
It is not just about getting the engine to run stable. It's a science experiment too. You going to want a proper CPU in the system, like an Atmel. This system should control the power/frequency/waveform to the electrolyzer (or multiple electrolyzers) , control fuel injection, control engine ignition and at the same time measure PSI sensors, engine RPM, load voltage+amps and connect the whole system to pc where you can play with all the settings and log all the results to a database from which you can create graphs and reports. In my universe this is not a luxury but a basic platform to start such an experiment.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: exnihiloest on December 26, 2010, 12:36:52 PM
...
To the skeptics:

HHO does not burn,
it DOES DETONATE, this is very different versus a gasoline-air mixture,
thus it produces much more mechanical output.
...

Where can we find the raw data of the measurements?
Have we evidence that the electrodes are not consumed?
Is there a third party duplication of Oliver and Valentin's device?

Without answers to these questions which are the basic ones of a scientific methodology, it is very prematurate to speak of OU.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: exnihiloest on December 26, 2010, 12:38:13 PM
exnihiloest,
So you won't be sending out any Checks to these guys?

Oh thats right ,I forgot ,they aren't looking for your money.

WWHEWWWW..............
That was close!
Imagine that ?,you actually want proof first!
What a novel concept?
So there really is a pink elephant in the room!

Chill fellahs ,your wallets are safe!
And the profoundly obvious?
Thanks to you boy's
Safe also!!

Merry Christmas
Chet

Even though Oliver and Valentin are sincere, it doesn't prove they get OU.
What I say is that we are completely outside of science, which needs measurements and third party duplications. Instead we have pretty videos for rising enthousiasm of naive believers, we are in the domain of faith. I agree it is the good moment: we can see also many videos with Father Christmas, so according to the same method of reasoning, we can be sure that Father Christmas exists and delivers gifts around the world at more than the speed of light.   :D


Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: exnihiloest on December 26, 2010, 01:01:19 PM

do you want to sponsor this validation ?
I can give you an organisation CERNTEA
I can give you a university in Montpelier
do you have the money ?

The first thing is to publish the exact description of the device. Where is it?
We are enough experimenters here to duplicate it and to give it some credibility if we observe it works.

Remember what happened with the lifter. At the beginning it was not clear if it was really a levitating object. It was question of anti-gravity. JL Naudin published a well documented procedure to build one. Many experimenters made a lifter and attested that it worked, there was no doubt. Then it was proved that it was not AG. It was a conventional device that works.

Here we have not even the possibility to duplicate the system because it is not fully described. And if we had it, we would have still to check if it is really OU, with nothing consumed. We are far from being at the starting point of an evaluation, so conclusions with OU claims are neither serious nor credible.


Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Low-Q on December 26, 2010, 02:32:48 PM
What happened to Brian is real i reported here a couple of times this happened about 4 years ago now while working on LOOPED RV's.  You know the things that people here say are IMPOSSIBLE like looping gas engine etc with HHO. Maybe with 2011 its time for a wakeup call.

.........
It is not impossible to loop back the engine if the energy input are taken from the mass in the water. It will however be impossible to CREATE energy out of nothing. But water is SOMETHING, and this something we can convert into energy.
I was watching my 3 year old son making a train track here the other day. He wanted to build a "8" track, but hadn't enough parts to complete it, so he had an idea of taking the parts from the other end, but what he was not thinking of was that he was shortening the track as he was suppose to add parts expand the length. This is the problem we face when trying to make an overunity motor as well. If a HHO motor can be looped, and possible to run inside a closed looped system, the extra energy input must be taken from something. This something must be mass which is partially converted into energy.

Vidar
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Energy4All on December 26, 2010, 02:51:13 PM
Hi guys. It's been a while. I've been looking at the Bill Williams version of this drycell at Panacea. They will be offering a course on it soon. I admit I am not fully informed and educated on the aspects of the Anton cell, but the Williams cell does incorporate a catalyst for HHO production. If these guys ARE using a catalyst that recombines upon combustion or reformation of H2O I would like to know about that. Close looping an ICE intake/exhaust system is feasible; but I am simply missing too much data on how this bugger actually operates. I'll let the court out on recess and suspend judgement until I have sufficient data to form even a semi educated opinion on this one.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 26, 2010, 03:08:02 PM
Fellahs
Its
"WATER AS FUEL",It's not overunity !
Its FUEL,no magic ,just our ignorance !

It's COOL FUEL!! And hopefully this will be the year we finally GET IT!!

To the guy down there in sunny Florida ,you might as well go public Bud,No money to be made here,Its  Open source

But you've already figured that out by now!
Good luck with your dreams !

This is a changing world Bud,Kodak just closed the last film proccessing plant on the planet.
Who would have thought that 10 years ago?
The worlds a changin!
And there aren't enough black hawks or cardboard fire cracker rockets to stop it.

Keep it hidden at Your risk,share it with the world and be set free!
Money? yeah that buys happiness [NOT]!taking money to be silent?That buys a life of guilt and misery!
A life sentence I am quite sure!
Open Source ,the truth will set you free!

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: arkresearch on December 26, 2010, 03:16:32 PM
 ;D well here comes the heavy fire ....

To obtain free energy is not the problem the problem is a psycological social political one .

First  you can obtain free energy using solar aeolic systems along energy savings technlogy as sample RV Rotoverter , Pantones GEET in unlooped mode for fuel savings and the such .

HHO

I made a revelation long ago, using hydrogen generation consisting of resonant series plates tuned to as if they were a capacitor within a tuned LC system that is to tune the plates under a pulsing DC stream fed from a diode bridge placed in series with resonat LC , energy source (reactive) or RF elf frequency source .


To start the secret is to use 316L stainless steel plates or wire spirals counterwinded facing each other , the idea of tuning to resonance is to obtain the reactive power as to effectively split water to HHO using the overunity  component of such.

now we go back to the problem (next post)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: aussepom on December 26, 2010, 03:28:39 PM
Hi
         I got an informed email sent to me to look at these posts,

     Hi mark  yes I agree with you, something is not right, testing that I know was done here in Melbourne, on a similar size motor, 6lpm will only let it idle over, for that unit to give full power to run the ‘400watt light , plus the 800 to 900watts to run that electrolyser, Mmmm oh that’s over 1000watts, even so that is a poor output for 800-900watts, I have had 5lpm on 400watts.

Nice to here that you are still around Les. And why all that dam music and crap, stick to the information, as it seems to lack a lot of.
 I am glad I went over to Magnetics and Plasma stuff, more exciting, and I have both working, the plasma was take off the tube, and the MagGen will not get on either.
Now a stand alone 15kW to 20kW home power generator no water no fuel or gas, soon to become a reality, you can have it if you have enough money. Needs lots of zero’s.
aussepom
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: arkresearch on December 26, 2010, 03:35:39 PM
The picture is an advanced led light called the zerowatt light in advanced photonic reactor R&D it can be used to enhance water hho generation using UV photoreactives along with resonant HHO generation.

The problem is people are not wishing to change the system , they are too bussy with 'my Invention" my money , My car , My house , My life stile to look that this technology is not ment for capitalistic progress but ment for social evolution and in a society permeated by collective negative forces such technology never stants a chance ...

My secret , my patent , My invention , screw others , my investors , my money .... Others nothing , they dont deserve it , i am superior  a god a master screw em ...! 

But still giving away hundred loopable simple inventions why? they cant be done ?   , its simple , as people dont realize they can use solar aeolic combination they cant realize they can also use simple existant technology
to free themselves from enslavement , if you watch TV or hear radio music dont count on being able to do anything related to rid yourself from enslavement  as TV and radio constantly subject you to anty free energy programation... Anty-independent off the book thinking programation ,
Using free energy is alike stealing cable TV signal , you are a terrorist criminal if you have your own energy system.
To demostrate the programed stupidity we are subjected too ask yourselves a simple question.

why all the production electric cars do not include a solar cell to recharge them when they are parked at the sun .. ? (continues on next post ) ;D
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: sushimoto on December 26, 2010, 03:53:17 PM
@ Sterling
sorry no cigar
they are not open sorced and refuse validations and testing. They are just using people lile yourself to suck in potential investors (although they claim they are after none)
They refuse to give details about engine modifications etc.
Mark

Hi Mark,

I dont know, where you are getting your "information" from,
but the only contact with you was my mail from August,
after you have asked for a longer run than in the previous video.

Here my PM to you:
Hi,
please take a look at this internal video.

As a documentation for self sustainability, the setup was
placed on some trolley and shiftet thru the house including an elevator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9czNkIJoObw
The ignition was feeded by the small 12V battery,
which could be easily charged with the 12V output from the generator.

Unortunately, the 150W lamp as an additional load to the transformer
broke halfways because of the vibrations.

Please kepp the link as confident because we dont really want
this Overunity-freeEnergy Circus.
What we are dedicated to is science of efficency. "Efficiency".
.. Anything else just leads to exhausting argueing
and communicative underunity as seen on this forum since years.


best,
sushi

And here your answer, asking for more.

sushi;

Yeah, thats a great demo that was pictured in the video
but if you have any input *please* have him get rid of the
12Vdc external supply or the *battery* in this case. A little extra
energy may be coming from it and getting into the engine. It should
not be necessary to run the engine this way. Simply produce
12VDC from the engine spark magneto that it has embeded in the
flywheel.

Ultimately I would like to see a tethered model helicopter powered
by overunity supply with just an anchor cable so the thing
can't fly off if it wants.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Sorry, but connecting a helicopter-toy is not very scientific. ;D

And which University was refused?
In fact, there are several contacts ongoing wit GERMAN Universities.

The only contact beetween german experimenters and foreign parties,
were with Hagen Ruff from "Chava Energy" and
that is a comercial company.

No cigar for commercial parties, using the anton-team for their purposes.
My english is not good enough for all this argueing and politics.

Somebody here has made a very good point:
The system is not Overunity,
because there is not more water coming out
than they put in."

So please forget the fanatic discussion.

best wishes,
sushi

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 26, 2010, 04:09:26 PM
Somebody here has made a very good point:
The system is not Overunity,
because there is not more water coming out
than they put in."

What your not getting is that over unity is not based solely on comparison of water in and water out. It's based on TOTAL energy in that YOU supply, and TOTAL energy out. This includes any electric current, mechanical energy produced from utilizing the HHO, heat output from the reaction, and of course the water it's self.

In over unity you can not look at 1 single thing. There very complex system that do not operate in thermodynamic equilibrium.

Efficiency is a measure of LOSSES in a system. A system can still be over unity even at only 50% efficiency.

Perpetual motion is another lie. Batteries die, machines break down, and time deteriorates all things. NOTHING can run forever.

C.O.P. (co-efficiency of performance) is the only true way to rate over unity. Instead of counting total energy in vs. total energy out as in efficiency ratings, C.O.P. is total energy out vs. the total energy in that YOU YOURSELF supply.

If you supply 1/2 total energy input and the other 1/2 comes from the environment, you get a C.O.P. of 2. C.O.P. of 1 is unity and any house with a heat/AC pump connected to it is in fact an over unity system as most decent heat/AC pumps operate between 3-4 C.O.P..
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: arkresearch on December 26, 2010, 04:20:16 PM
E out /e IN= UO

(e in + e^)-e in =OU

Overunity is due to transformation , aquired energy from other domain than the original source

e in = energy source input
e^ = aquired energy from other domain
E out is the sum of such (OU)

for electromagnetics as a sample
 H= I2 rT = (OU Other domain)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 26, 2010, 04:23:47 PM
E out /e IN= UO

(e in + e^)-e in =OU

Overunity is due to transformation , aquired energy from other domain than the original source

e in = energy source input
e^ = aquired energy from other domain
E out is the sum of such (OU)

for electromagnetics as a sample
 H= I2 rT = (OU Other domain)

I'm not very good at math, but thats pretty much it. YOU are the original supplier, and the evironment is the secondary. Anything YOU don't supply is extra that is transformed, or converted to another type of energy.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 26, 2010, 09:19:54 PM
@sushimotto
I am afraid you have me mixed up with Markscoffman, that is not me. I do not recall having any correspondence with you. I do not even know your involvement with this or what your role is or who you are?
I will stand corrected on one point and that I said overseas but I meant other European. (it was a couple of sources in Europe that I got my information from and the video)
I commend you on stating that it is not overunity, but in this latest video and a couple of previous ones you have portrayed it as self running.
As you have seen with the person who owns this forum and others like Sterling Allen's FREEENERGYNEWS they are claiming self running and major breakthrough. I understand these are not your words but it is a natural interpretation that anyone would put on seeing the video.
Your cells are very high quality product but I am not sure their efficiency is any more than some others that are out there.
I am a little confussed about if this is an open source project or not. From reading the German threads you do have detail about your cell and ignition modification. However I do have a couple of questions for you (assuming it is open sourced, if not no need to reply)
1. What other modifications did you do to the motor(valve timing, cam modifications, spark plug etc)?
2. Have you had the exhaust gas analysed and what was the results?
3. Were any other hydrocarbons present in the bubblier or cell.
I was not aware of any commercial arrangements you have with Chava or any other company or anyone else you may have met.  That is of course your own business and no one elses.
I do however congradulate you on your work. 
 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 26, 2010, 09:34:19 PM
@MarkSCoffman
well it seems you had this video for some months now? I understand you were asked to keep it confidential and my hat goes of to you for doing so.
Several other people somehow ened up with the video, I kept it under my hat when I recieved a copy form another source as i thought it was up to the makers of the video to decide what is released or not.
so i take my hat of to you again.
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Low-Q on December 26, 2010, 09:49:21 PM
Sushi can answer you questions better I guess, but I understand it this way; The ignition in a pure HHO driven engine should occour when the piston are already on its way down. Because HHO detonates/burns extremely fast, so any egnition before the piston are on top, will probably force the piston in reverse. The valves should be timed so they are closed whenever the spark plug goes off.
If there are a small amount of water injection into the cylinder, the expansion of the water into steam will add extra power, but also probably slow down the detonation of the HHO, so it burns slower. Anyways, injection of water in the right moment will boost any gasoline powered engine - so why not a HHO engine? This extra boost will consume extra water, but will probably be the key to a selfrunning motor which runs on pure water electrolysis? I guess you already have seen the Japanese company which made a prototype van with a selfrunning HHO engine - which needs a bottle of water now and then.

Vidar
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 26, 2010, 10:06:03 PM
@aussiepom
I am happy to see you alive and kicking. I have always admired you dedication and passion for what you are doing. your also dont talk BS...I like that.
keep me up to date I will shout you lunch next time I am down in Melbourne.
Always ready to listen to anything you have
my email is markdansie@bigpon.com
all the best
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 26, 2010, 10:20:34 PM
@aussiepom
correction on my email
its markdansie@bigpond.com
also skype me (mark dansie) nsw australia (there are a few of us around)
PS 5 litres a minute at 400 watts is very impressive an about the best i know of...well done.
Kind Regards
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: jgaltUSA on December 26, 2010, 10:32:27 PM
With all the brilliant minds in the world trying to solve the world's energy problems I can assure you that the solution is not going to come from anyone that produces such a ridiculous video. I am not even going to waste my time reading this thread. There is nothing to see here, move on!

Look, we unplugged it and it's still running. Hey look, we are wheeling it around on a cart with no wires attached...and it's still running. Now we are in a sealed elevator going down several floors and no one is passing out from the fumes. Please send money!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Low-Q on December 26, 2010, 11:10:36 PM
With all the brilliant minds in the world trying to solve the world's energy problems I can assure you that the solution is not going to come from anyone that produces such a ridiculous video. I am not even going to waste my time reading this thread. There is nothing to see here, move on!

Look, we unplugged it and it's still running. Hey look, we are wheeling it around on a cart with no wires attached...and it's still running. Now we are in a sealed elevator going down several floors and no one is passing out from the fumes. Please send money!
The biggest monkeys have the loudest screams:

I quote from a Norwegian site - the content seems to fit right in here:
"I see there are a handful of sensible supporters of the established knowledge here.

To use water as fuel via standard electrolysis will be difficult because it requires more energy than the potential one gets out, and with this increase in temperature also.

However, it is boundless naive of you to sit with your little mind and dismiss all the innovations with regard to the first and second laws of thermodynamics. To put this size of restrictions for self-perception makes one almost totally blind almost forever. And you will protest. Be my guest. It is absolutely inconceivable unintelligent to put limits on innovation.

Many elements have strong chemical bonds, but under the right circumstances, they act in quite different ways than expected. Your narrow scientific skeptics believe that the only way to open the box is to use a sledgehammer. And of course it requires considerably more energy than using the key.

Stanley Meyer did this for a long time ago. All of his patents is available. None, except the one now, as we speak, seems to have managed to reproduce his system. He has documents via the film that his engine ran on water. There are a number of witnesses. And the patent drawings are out there. Fortunately, there is a sharp private brain that are now beginning to successfully reproduce his system. Maybe they have managed something similar here.

It has been a similar histories from the U.S., Australia and Sweden. Everyone dies after some time. Also did Meyer, when he died of poisoning at a local restaurant."

Vidar
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 26, 2010, 11:20:19 PM
With all the brilliant minds in the world trying to solve the world's energy problems I can assure you that the solution is not going to come from anyone that produces such a ridiculous video. I am not even going to waste my time reading this thread. There is nothing to see here, move on!

Look, we unplugged it and it's still running. Hey look, we are wheeling it around on a cart with no wires attached...and it's still running. Now we are in a sealed elevator going down several floors and no one is passing out from the fumes. Please send money!

Instead of sending money why don't you make this system? The generator is Chinese cost around 140 euro/bucks/pounds/  The HHO cell not so important any good dry cell construction will work it doesn't have to be the very same one. Cost 140 euro/bucks/pounds/   tubing pipes, fittings etc add another 100-200 = 380-480 so its cheap to try then YOU know if it works or not its the only way. If it doesnt work you can sell most of it and get your money back.

No amount of videos will convince anyone of anything unless you make it yourself. One thing i have noticed on this forum. People will try CRAP like self spinning magnets or swinging weights but the things that work with off the shelf parts no one will ever try it.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Energy4All on December 26, 2010, 11:21:41 PM
Darn those noisy monkeys!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 26, 2010, 11:37:21 PM
"PS 5 litres a minute at 400 watts is very impressive an about the best i know of...well done."

400 watts DC yields about COP 3 without resonance and as much as COP 12 with 3 phase resonance systems. So 3 * 400 = 1200 watts nett effective including RE. The are two things we know are instant energy debts here. The lamp 400 watts i think = 1200 - 400 = 800 watts and also the cell need 400 watts so i have 400 watts to run the engine and cover the alternator losses.  The alternator is going to lose perhaps 150 watts from mechanical to electrical so i got 250 watts left to keep the motor itself turning. Will it loop? YES! PS if the lamp is larger then its taken from this 250 watts. Due to low speed under load the full power will not be reaching the lamp in any case.

Mods required spark blanking essential. WHY? cos at TDC the inlet valve is already open 2 degrees causes instant backfire for HHO. The timing is to be set almost exact TDC use 555 in monostable trigger delay from existing hall trigger to retard 12 degrees. Skip odd spark use DIV 2 counter. No mechanical mods required.  Speed set simple use phase comparator on HHO PWM drive.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 26, 2010, 11:44:01 PM
Instead of sending money why don't you make this system? The generator is Chinese cost around 140 euro/bucks/pounds/  The HHO cell not so important any good dry cell construction will work it doesn't have to be the very same one. Cost 140 euro/bucks/pounds/   tubing pipes, fittings etc add another 100-200 = 380-480 so its cheap to try then YOU know if it works or not its the only way. If it doesnt work you can sell most of it and get your money back.

No amount of videos will convince anyone of anything unless you make it yourself. One thing i have noticed on this forum. People will try CRAP like self spinning magnets or swinging weights but the things that work with off the shelf parts no one will ever try it.

Problem is, there is a clear reason to expect self-spinning magnets to work and that the problems for the difficulty to make them are purely engineering. Not so with the HHO machine. There is no reason presented so far which would indicate that it can be an OU machine.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 27, 2010, 02:33:48 AM
With all the brilliant minds in the world trying to solve the world's energy problems I can assure you that the solution is not going to come from anyone that produces such a ridiculous video. I am not even going to waste my time reading this thread. There is nothing to see here, move on!

Look, we unplugged it and it's still running. Hey look, we are wheeling it around on a cart with no wires attached...and it's still running. Now we are in a sealed elevator going down several floors and no one is passing out from the fumes. Please send money!

THANK YOU! FINALLY someone who gets it. The REAL research is not widely publicized. If they were the government would be to busy killing them off to raid other countries for oil.

I do it for Mother Earth and "we the people", NOT "we the upper 1%", or "we the profit seekers". I don't make a thin dime on anything I do. I share my info to give the human species a second chance. I've lost ALL faith in the human species, and logically, 6.5 billion of you need to die to save the very future of your kind.

My systems are built from off the shelf stuff and straight up garbage. Here's a link to my blog where I release the instructions on how to use a dead car alternator and a dead microwave to built the most powerful and efficient motor in the world in it's size class.

http://www.myspace.com/rebeccahare/blog/540768044

In fact, I have so little faith in the human speciecs ability to spot the obvious, that I am going to post a pic of half my generator stator. The pic is all it takes, but none of you will understand it it's so simple.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 27, 2010, 08:01:18 AM
Why do you spam your blog here? Start another thread if you must! This thread is about HHO looping not coil winding.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 27, 2010, 08:14:39 AM
Why do you spam your blog here? Start another thread if you must! This thread is about HHO looping not coil winding.

Yet another idiot who doesn't get the point. It's not about coil winding, it's about excess energy output. Only an idiot would miss that point, and idiots have no place in ANY scientific field.

I'm trying to hint at a thought pattern change so people can advance ALL OU work, including HHO, but people like you just HAVE to butt in and be the idiots you are.

I can't stand people like you and I hope you get a red sticker on your mailbox. If you don't understand that reference then you are even more out of touch with reality than I thought, and are only holding people back.

No more hints, here's the point of all of this and my past post.

STOP BEING SO COMPLICATED! Exactly when did occam's razor stop applying to anything?

The math heads run through endless equations that have absolutely no foundation in reality. We have several forms of mathmatic bases. Relying on any single 1 is stupid. algebra has nothing to do with quantum physics, tensors have almost nothing to do with quantum physics.

The only true math that applies to quantum physics is a virtually dead art form known as quaternions. Only the absolute brightest minds in history were able to understand it, and those minds made some of the most fundamental discoveries in the quantum field.

For the experimenters who waste and waste, try thinking more simply. The motor I posted the blog link to cost $20 to build with virtually zero waste for 1 simple fact. I thought it out and envisioned the energy fields and how they interact BEFORE I even posted the craigslist ad looking for the dead microwave.

That's EXACTLY how Tesla worked. He envisioned everything in his mind before lifting a finger.

Every person alive has the most advanced and sophisticated super-computer to ever exist bobbing around on their necks. LEARN TO USE IT!

"There is no try, there is only do or do not."...Yoda

"The present time is theirs, but the future is mine."...Nikola Tesla
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on December 27, 2010, 08:36:56 AM


 The timing is to be set almost exact TDC use 555 in monostable trigger delay from existing hall trigger to retard 12 degrees. Skip odd spark use DIV 2 counter.   Speed set simple use phase comparator on HHO PWM drive.

bolt,
You may personally BELIEVE the above statements to be correct but I assure you, they are NOT!!
Please do not take offense but may I suggest that you study this subject properly before making further statements.

I have attached some of my writings (3 files) which may help you to a proper understand of the ignition/injection process.
There is enough misleading information on Internet already.
Please DO NOT add more!

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on December 27, 2010, 08:45:16 AM
bolt & All,

I am still struggling with log-in and file attachments!
Here are two more attachments.
See how this works out!

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 27, 2010, 08:51:19 AM
Ignition systems are not the problem. The point of ignition is where you should be looking. A spark plug with a titanium or tungsten tip and electrode would easily handle the temps created from a plasma spark.

With a plasma spark you can run an ICE on steam or even liquid water. HHO presents no ignition challenge if you use a plasma spark.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 27, 2010, 09:23:29 AM
bolt,
You may personally BELIEVE the above statements to be correct but I assure you, they are NOT!!
Please do not take offense but may I suggest that you study this subject properly before making further statements.

I have attached some of my writings (3 files) which may help you to a proper understand of the ignition/injection process.
There is enough misleading information on Internet already.
Please DO NOT add more!

Best regards,
Les Banki


OK I have read your files in essence requires some pretty extensive circuitry for the average person. My solution will work just fine. The engine is designed to run at a set speed. There is no need to incrementing the timing under varying throttle conditions. Therefore ABSOLUTE delay of some milliseconds will correct the timing to TDC without worrying about phase angles. I know i have done this for propane generators that required a timing change but was fixed on the old engine.

For the spark omission the DIV by 2 works and its surprisingly easy! if you are on the wrong "phase" the engine wont start. You pull it again and it has a 50/50 chance of starting. This might sound bad to you but once you pulled it once and it don't start once the engine catches the correct phase for the pulse it stays there and never changes. My method is a way of providing the EASY method with no mechanical modifications whatsoever. No gears, no extra hall sensor nothing. You said you need a double throw pull or the engine wont start. This is not true i done this before and it starts fine with a good pull AND it works for them on the demo machine.

SO while i don't totally disagree with your solutions they are not the only method to overcome the problems. My circuit is MUCH easier and will work with the correct timing using a pot delay and DIV 2.  All i will add to this is a phase comparator for RPM control it will sit very nice at the desired speed under varying loads. So you see there are a wide range of solutions from plastic cogs to full Arduino mapping which I'm more than capable of writing every bit of code to give this full and total ECM so please don't try to make out your solution is the ONLY one that can work.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on December 27, 2010, 10:22:13 AM
Ignition systems are not the problem. The point of ignition is where you should be looking. A spark plug with a titanium or tungsten tip and electrode would easily handle the temps created from a plasma spark.

With a plasma spark you can run an ICE on steam or even liquid water. HHO presents no ignition challenge if you use a plasma spark.

questioneverything,

After you have read my "Ignition systems for small engines 2" 
thesis you will see that the ignition systems on small one cylinder engines ARE indeed the problem!!

"The point of ignition is where you should be looking."

Exactly!  That is what its all about, PLUS injection!
As for TRUE plasma sparks, their temperature may exceed the 3600 degrees (Celsius) melting point of tungsten!

" HHO presents no ignition challenge if you use a plasma spark."

For me, HHO presents NO ignition challenge, with OR without plasma sparks.

bolt,

First of all, my "solution" is NOT for the laymen on the street!
Our intention is to SELL these generators to NON-technical users.
Can you imagine those users to make several starting attempts in the hope of catching the correct phase?
Further, once you have removed the carburetor and have fitted an injection solenoid, how will your engine 'find' the correct RPM???

Further still, you have proved that your reading was rather brief. You obviously did not understand the bit about why the extended cord (or electric start) is necessary IF you are going to use my design.

You can argue all you want but a fixed time delay is NOT correct!!
In my article I made it clear that such an arrangement is ONLY correct at one speed!!  If you are satisfied with that, so be it!

I never claimed that my method is the best or the only way to go.

But so far, I have failed to find a proper design for this task.
That is why I set out to study the subject properly and made my own.

That's all.

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 27, 2010, 10:29:21 AM
questioneverything,

After you have read my "Ignition systems for small engines 2" 
thesis you will see that the ignition systems on small one cylinder engines ARE indeed the problem!!

"The point of ignition is where you should be looking."

Exactly!  That is what its all about, PLUS injection!
As for TRUE plasma sparks, their temperature may exceed the 3600 degrees (Celsius) melting point of tungsten!

" HHO presents no ignition challenge if you use a plasma spark."

For me, HHO presents NO ignition challenge, with OR without plasma sparks.

Plasma spark can exceed the melting temp of tungsten IF it's not controlled. An uncontrolled plasma spark can exceed 45000 F in the case of plasma cutters, but a controlled plasma spark can be used to boil water. I've done it.

Platinum has the ability to disperse heat over it's overall mass faster than it can build up. Especially if the entire center electrode and outer body and electrode are solid platinum.

I'm not into reading page after page of technical stuff when a simple question is MUCH faster and to the point.

I'm an ASE trained mechanic, exactly what is the state of ignition flame front and it's behavior at the moment of ignition?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: exnihiloest on December 27, 2010, 01:07:28 PM
Quote
I quote from a Norwegian site - the content seems to fit right in here:
"I see there are a handful of sensible supporters of the established knowledge here."

Until now the "established knowledge" is the only one that works. If there is an alternative, show it us with operational terms and real existing machines.

Some people consider the established knowledge as an enemy because it prevents them from realizing their inconsistant dreams.
Even if it was an enemy, it is well known that to fight an ennemy, you must well know him. But these people don't know the laws of physics or don't understand them. They don't understand that every law is relevant and consistant with the others and that they cannot break one law without destroying all the whole knowledge.
If these ignorant people knew this, they would understand that the point is not to deny "the established knowledge", but to go beyond!
Only subtle phenomena beyond the conventional knowledge can open new doors which will not disprove the "established knowledge" but will need new theories that will encompass the previous ones or will reduce their domain of validity, as the relativity did with Newton mechanics.
The "established knowledge" is not an enemy but a friend, a convenient way to save time in eliminating stupid assertions about OU which are not OU but conventional phenomena, and in sorting out the promising ideas.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 27, 2010, 01:22:47 PM
Until now the "established knowledge" is the only one that works. If there is an alternative, show it us with operational terms and real existing machines.

Some people consider the established knowledge as an enemy because it prevents them from realizing their inconsistant dreams.
Even if it was an enemy, it is well known that to fight an ennemy, you must well know him. But these people don't know the laws of physics or don't understand them. They don't understand that every law is relevant and consistant with the others and that they cannot break one law without destroying all the whole knowledge.
If these ignorant people knew this, they would understand that the point is not to deny "the established knowledge", but to go beyond!
Only subtle phenomena beyond the conventional knowledge can open new doors which will not disprove the "established knowledge" but will need new theories that will encompass the previous ones or will reduce their domain of validity, as the relativity did with Newton mechanics.
The "established knowledge" is not an enemy but a friend, a convenient way to save time in eliminating stupid assertions about OU which are not OU but conventional phenomena, and in sorting out the promising ideas.

The established methods are our friends. Throughout history we build on top of older tech to advance our understanding of the basics that make these systems work. If we didn't have an old established method and view, there would be nothing to build on and we would still be living in caves and eatting raw meat. We have to make mistakes to have something to learn from.

The real enemy is the profit driven interests. THEY are the ones keeping us from advancing the established methods. If we advance past the need for fossil fuels, they cease to exist. This is why Nikola Tesla has been all but erased from history. Profit driven interests don't want us to advance or evolve because it will destroy them when we get to the point we don't need them anymore.

The laws of physics are set in stone, but people misquote, misrepresent, and misinterpret them to defend the established method. Sometimes violently as evidenced by all the inventors that have been killed in the past. People are being taught this stuff can't be done according to thermodynamics, but they always leave out the 2 words that support these OU systems.

Conservation of energy states that no system in THERMODYNAMIC EQUILIBRIUM can put out more than is used to drive the system.

But people are taught that no system at all can put out more than is used to drive the system.

If you build a system out of thermodynamic equilibrium or balance, the game goes into over time. Over unity doesn't break the law of conservation of energy, it is on the other side of the door it has left open for us to find.

There are 5 steps to acceptance, and the world is programed against everything we do, and is on the line of denial and anger.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: arkresearch on December 27, 2010, 01:51:09 PM
As we were discussing earlier, the basis of the self substaining run should rely apparently on the electrolysis side. Now, for that to be the case we should either have the Faraday's law of electrolysis violated or the enthalpy of the gasses should be greater than what's known when produced through electrolysis. violated overall.


I have stated a million times over several forums the plates of electrolytic cells can produce RE as if they were capacitive component within LC generator configuration specially in reverse induction exited generators ,so cop 12 reactive power can feed the electrolysis reaction producing gas quantity to self substain.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 27, 2010, 01:52:26 PM
Thank you @rebecca baby girl!!!

Jesus
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 27, 2010, 01:54:29 PM
Thank you @rebecca baby girl!!!

Jesus

For what?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: arkresearch on December 27, 2010, 02:05:16 PM
Some people consider the established knowledge as an enemy because it prevents them from realizing their inconsistent dreams.


The wrong use of established knowledge as if it were a religion is what  bothers the most ,looking at OU machine working its blamed to Satan with no regard toward transform theory formulations that apply from tornado's to hurricanes and demonstrate to us a constant energy transforming environment we can use to our advantage , start reading Tesla's sinkhole theory ...

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter:Vortex_Technology_with_RV_cogeneration

This machines had already being built and tested "


Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 27, 2010, 02:07:21 PM
Wow,
New faces,New ideas,Excellent

Lots going on ,Good stuff,The chance to learn something new!!
Perhaps this new year really will be NEW?
Like a breath of fresh air!!
Speaking of which ,I'm not lucky enough to live in the south like Rebecca ,I got to go shovel some "fresh Snow"

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 27, 2010, 02:23:18 PM
Wow,
New faces,

Lots going on ,Good stuff,The chance to learn something new!!
Perhaps this new year really will be NEW?
Like a breath of fresh air!!
Speaking of which ,I'm not lucky enough to live in the south like Rebecca ,I got to go shovel some "fresh Snow"

Chet

Ouch! I feel for you. Cold aggravates my titanium.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 04:11:53 PM


I have stated a million times over several forums the plates of electrolytic cells can produce RE as if they were capacitive component within LC generator configuration specially in reverse induction exited generators ,so cop 12 reactive power can feed the electrolysis reaction producing gas quantity to self substain.

What's RE?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 27, 2010, 04:31:36 PM


                    RE= Radiant Energy
                         
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 04:48:52 PM

                    RE= Radiant Energy
                         

What is that energy unknown to science?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 27, 2010, 04:51:02 PM
Heat, radio waves, cell signals, even the magnetic field around the power lines are forms of radiant energy. It's energy that's radiated instead of transmitted.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 05:17:41 PM
Heat, radio waves, cell signals, even the magnetic field around the power lines are forms of radiant energy. It's energy that's radiated instead of transmitted.

The implication was that there's some other energy that Faraday's law of electrolysis cannot account for. No, there is no such energy even if you call it radiant energy.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 27, 2010, 05:27:51 PM
The implication was that there's some other energy that Faraday's law of electrolysis cannot account for. No, there is no such energy even if you call it radiant energy.

There is another energy he did not account for. When a di-pole is resonated it does have the ability to pull in outside energy from the quantum field. It's the entire grounds of scalar energy charging batteries.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 05:30:06 PM
There is another energy he did not account for. When a di-pole is resonated it does have the ability to pull in outside energy from the quantum field. It's the entire grounds of scalar energy charging batteries.

No, there is no such energy. That's nonsense.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mikewatson on December 27, 2010, 06:08:36 PM
We seem to be tripping over physics here, water electrolysis is conventionally overunity, the excess energy comes from environmental heat absorbtion, the theoretical maximum efficiency is 120%, the excess 20 % comes from this environmental heat. Commercial water electrolysis baths operate at close to 100% efficiency.

See this reference Penner and Icerman, Energy, volume 2 page 135, Addison Wesley 1975.

Conventional electrolysis  absorbs 68.315 kcal per mole of water electrolysed and is the Enthalpy change for this process.  The minimum energy required for electrolysis equals the the Gibbs free energy change. Which is related to the voltage E required to implement electrolysis.
E = dF/23064 n  volts  (23064 =96500/4.184)                1 calorie = 4.184 Joules
n = 2 number of electrons per joule of water electrolysed.
dF = 56620 cal/mole of water electrolysed.

Voltage for electrolysis E = 56620/23064*2 =1.23 volts at 300 degK

The energy efficiency of electrolysis at 300 deg Kelvin is 120% the extra twenty percent comes from external heat, (the electrolyte cools) also the ideal voltage at 300 deg K  is 1.23 volts and this potential falls with increased absolute temperature.
However:-
The enthalpy change dH for water electrolysis under standard temperature and pressure is
 68315 calories and
The voltage E for this
E= dH/23064n  = 68315/23064*2 = 1.48 volts at 300 deg K
This voltage is where the electrolysis is ideally 100% efficient and no heat is sucked from the environment. This is the so called thermo-neutral voltage

Unfortunately the converse is also true:- the hydroxyl fuel cell is theoretically 80% maximum efficiency.

So, for hydroxyl gas production towards 120% efficiency , clearly the cell should be operated around 1.25 volts and electrolyte concentration and plate area adjusted to give the required current.

Mike
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: helmut on December 27, 2010, 06:10:46 PM
Helmut
Good to see you !!
You put a big smile on my face with that post!
Happy Holidays !
And so it begins!
Chet

Hi Chet
Sorry, that i answer to you late, but i was busy and just forgot
to reply during other activity.
I am happy to see you as well.And that someone remember me after beeig in other forums.

After i read all the reply i do not understand , where is the problem for others.
The proof of concept was done long time ago.
The only difference might be, that you can see it working in a closed loop.
Many others run there Heaters and or Motors on hho only, but they dont show it in public.
The reason is quite simple. Hundrets of interestet guys call and ask the same questions, and succing ones time, which is rare.
What i can tell you is: There is no fake.
And it is not a Perpetuum Mobile  and it is not Overunity!
Water is consumed !
100% Water goes in   and some Water comes out.
Water is consumed !
Perhaps it is difficult for the brainwashed to believe.
But thats the answer.
The electrolyser is named Anton.
Anton is made of a special design to be a modular set as well.
It is a goal , that anton module will be a fuelcell after a change of the design.
Anton is a concept for multiuse.
If one will be able to produce ones own fuel, than build yourselve a electrolyser or buy one.
Now it is possible to produce fuel on Demand.
It was possible 100 years ago, but the information was not available in public. Now it is.
This fuel is friendly for environment. This fuel is ready for the future.

Oliver and Valentin are buisy all day with many kind of developments.
There is no time to be waistet by doing Exhaust gas analysis.

Month ago , some came and ask , how many Lpm comes out the elektrolyser. Than a mesurement tool was buyd for some thausend euros.
Mesurements where done. Who payd for it? Oliver.
If one like to have a analysis, no problem, just buy one and bring it here. Than oliver will start the china generator and one can start mesurements.
But what will be the result?
The Elektrolyser is feedet with water . Thats it.
Led the mesurements do by the university. They will produce some more doctors. Thats it.

 The Change,that we are waiting for  is up to us.

helmut

p.s. sorry for my lousy english , hope one can understand.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 06:31:44 PM
We seem to be tripping over physics here, water electrolysis is conventionally overunity, the excess energy comes from environmental heat absorbtion, the theoretical maximum efficiency is 120%, the excess 20 % comes from this environmental heat. Commercial water electrolysis baths operate at close to 100% efficiency.

See this reference Penner and Icerman, Energy, volume 2 page 135, Addison Wesley 1975.

Conventional electrolysis  absorbs 68.315 kcal per mole of water electrolysed and is the Enthalpy change for this process.  The minimum energy required for electrolysis equals the the Gibbs free energy change. Which is related to the voltage E required to implement electrolysis.
E = dF/23064 n  volts  (23064 =96500/4.184)                1 calorie = 4.184 Joules
n = 2 number of electrons per joule of water electrolysed.
dF = 56620 cal/mole of water electrolysed.

Voltage for electrolysis E = 56620/23064*2 =1.23 volts at 300 degK

The energy efficiency of electrolysis at 300 deg Kelvin is 120% the extra twenty percent comes from external heat, (the electrolyte cools) also the ideal voltage at 300 deg K  is 1.23 volts and this potential falls with increased absolute temperature.
However:-
The enthalpy change dH for water electrolysis under standard temperature and pressure is
 68315 calories and
The voltage E for this
E= dH/23064n  = 68315/23064*2 = 1.48 volts at 300 deg K
This voltage is where the electrolysis is ideally 100% efficient and no heat is sucked from the environment. This is the so called thermo-neutral voltage

Unfortunately the converse is also true:- the hydroxyl fuel cell is theoretically 80% maximum efficiency.

So, for hydroxyl gas production towards 120% efficiency , clearly the cell should be operated around 1.25 volts and electrolyte concentration and plate area adjusted to give the required current.

Mike

What you're saying is trivial. The problem is that for the enthalpy of burning to be greater than the input energy the process of electrolysis has to be carried out reversibly, that is spending only the Gibbs free energy difference. This means that the hydrogen and oxygen overvoltage has to be eliminated (let alone the Ohmic resistance). So far, I know of no published way to do that, so that only remains a theoretical possibility. Thus, the non-trivial part of the whole story is how to eliminate the overvoltage. I should say that there are ways to do that and I've done research in this direction which, obviously, should be continued.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: The Observer on December 27, 2010, 06:52:00 PM
Helmut,
 
Thanks for the post... much appreciated.

I would like to remind all that there is no such thing as an OU device.

I guess anything can 'look' like OU... if you don't understand where the energy is coming from.
The Invention Secrecy Act of 1951 calls what we are looking for Novel Sources of Energy.

I prefer the term USE (Unrecognized Source or Energy)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I claim to have noticed two possible USE phenomenon.

1. Magnetic Permeability... the phenom that a ferro material is made up of many magnetic dipoles (powered by free electron spin.)

                                         We utilize this energy every day.. yet do not recognize it as such.
                                          ie. A speaker with exchangeable magnets is going to produce a louder sound with a more powerful magnet.
             
2. Resonance.. the phenom that an object will store energy vibrationally and interact with the surrounding environment
                                     at an amplitude of vibration consistent with the energy the object is storing.       
 
                      ie. Two tuning forks ring louder and longer than one by means of feedback and the following.
                      The extra energy comes from the Molecular Motion, that was random (before Resonance) which becomes ordered.

3. If the Anton Cell uses either Resonance or a High Perm Core in a Transformer...
                                                      it is fairly certain that extra energy is  coming from the Termed USEs I have mentioned.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GodSpeed,
                The Observer
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 07:14:32 PM
On the contrary, there is such a thing as OU device. Not the HHO, for the time being, though.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 27, 2010, 08:19:53 PM
On the contrary, there is such a thing as OU device.
this is simply hearsay from omni... take it with a pound of salt. then ask him to provide said ou device for vetting. ::)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 27, 2010, 08:36:59 PM
Helmut,
You speak much better english than My German!

Please keep us posted ,this is great stuff!and lots of folks here like to hear from you!

@Les Banki
Thank you sir for sharing that info[reposted below],I will be sure to study!



Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: plengo on December 27, 2010, 08:47:32 PM
I think we are missing what is the definition of OU.

I like Tom Bearden's definition. He wrote a nice book explaining it in details: Energy from the Vaccum.

In the end OU is simply energy from sources that we just dont know yet, just like Omni said. It will eventually be well know and OU term will simply die. We all will be running our houses from "the wheel of nature" (Tesla words).

Fausto.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 27, 2010, 08:53:29 PM
Yes its a OU system!  The energy we put in is less then that provided by other sources.  Radiant Energy or water who cares. The excess is enough where its looped. If the energy transformed only from water it doesn't explain how the TPU and Kapanadze works when they don't need water. Better a common factor of Radiant Energy powers all three devices.

Its funny when you show people a COP>1 system they say "its a measurement error its not COP>1 if it is then you should be able to loop it" Guess what? This is a looped OU device!

400 watts DC yields about COP 3 without resonance via the energy contained within the HHO mix as its recombined within a spark. See Atomic Hydrogen Torches and as much as COP 12 with 3 phase resonance systems. So 3 * 400 = 1200 watts nett effective including RE. The are two things we know are instant energy debts here. The lamp 400 watts i think = 1200 - 400 = 800 watts and also the cell need 400 watts so i have 400 watts to run the engine and cover the alternator losses.  The alternator is going to lose perhaps 150 watts from mechanical to electrical so i got 250 watts left to keep the motor itself turning. Will it loop? YES! PS if the lamp is larger then its taken from this 250 watts.

The 250 watts is left within the system and keeps the motor and generator running overcoming the friction losses of the bearings, piston friction and valve gear to maintain about 3000 rpm.

The system is scalable the French did this years ago on 25kw genset it runs on pure water and provides like 10KW OU.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on December 27, 2010, 09:46:23 PM
I think we are missing what is the definition of OU.

The definition of "OU" is known at least for the last 165 years. Or since the foundation of the thermodynamics. The term "unity" relates with the out/in ratio of a "CLOSED system", the rest you can figure out for yourself...
Quote
I like Tom Bearden's definition. He wrote a nice book explaining it in details: Energy from the Vaccum.

In the end OU is simply energy from sources that we just dont know yet, just like Omni said. It will eventually be well know and OU term will simply die. We all will be running our houses from "the wheel of nature" (Tesla words).

Fausto.

Just like the Omni said???
Yeah, stick with the Bot's "science" and you'll get the reward... Any day now. Soon.
 FFs..
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 09:52:49 PM
No, no, listen to the clown @spinn_MP as to what science really is.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on December 27, 2010, 10:05:30 PM
No, no, listen to the clown @spinn_MP as to what science really is.
It's always fun to stumble upon your wisdom, OmniBot!

A clown?  Eh, you're just flattering me...

Btw, a point to your programmers! They're getting very innovative with those few lines of code...
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 27, 2010, 10:06:59 PM
@helmut
many thanks for your post, your english is fine.
The exhaust gas analysis can be done on the spot by pprofessionals and will take less than 5 minutes of there time. Appart from the portable equipment that will be used a sample will be taken back to a testing facility and a full gas Spectrum Analysis conducted.
I would also suggest a sample be taken of the gas before it enters the engine.
So the offer is there, no charge and a lot can be gained from this analysis.
I have done such testing in the USA many times running engines with hydrogen injection with the assistance of cumbustion scientists.
Any researcher in this field would want to know these results.
In regards of measuring equipment it is not how much it sosts but how it is calibrted. A device calibrated for measuring hydrogen is completly different from one calibrated for hydrogen...combine both gases and you have a real headache. I know as i have purchased gas flow meters. I do not doubt there claimed output as it is within the realms of other cells commercially available.
I always found the displacement of water the best method.
i will give an example...Fast Freddy claimed 55 litres per minute at 700 watts when he measures with a flow meter. When he did his displacement test (on video ) at 200 watts he was only measureing 2 litres per minute using the displacement method.
So the offer is there...5 minutes, professional people with portable equipment and a further gas analysis conducted at a test lab.
Kind Regards
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 10:12:09 PM
It's always fun to stumble upon your wisdom, OmniBot!

A clown?  Eh, you're just flattering me...

Btw, a point to your programmers! They're getting very innovative with those few lines of code...

Hey, clown, here's another flattering note to you, clown.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 10:14:07 PM
@helmut
many thanks for your post, your english is fine.
The exhaust gas analysis can be done on the spot by pprofessionals and will take less than 5 minutes of there time. Appart from the portable equipment that will be used a sample will be taken back to a testing facility and a full gas Spectrum Analysis conducted.
I would also suggest a sample be taken of the gas before it enters the engine.
So the offer is there, no charge and a lot can be gained from this analysis.
I have done such testing in the USA many times running engines with hydrogen injection with the assistance of cumbustion scientists.
Any researcher in this field would want to know these results.
In regards of measuring equipment it is not how much it sosts but how it is calibrted. A device calibrated for measuring hydrogen is completly different from one calibrated for hydrogen...combine both gases and you have a real headache. I know as i have purchased gas flow meters. I do not doubt there claimed output as it is within the realms of other cells commercially available.
I always found the displacement of water the best method.
i will give an example...Fast Freddy claimed 55 litres per minute at 700 watts when he measures with a flow meter. When he did his displacement test (on video ) at 200 watts he was only measureing 2 litres per minute using the displacement method.
So the offer is there...5 minutes, professional people with portable equipment and a further gas analysis conducted at a test lab.
Kind Regards
Mark

I second that.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on December 27, 2010, 10:23:52 PM
Clown?

Isn't that a word closely related with yourself over the past few years?

I wonder, will you ever be able to invent something original?

Like an original insult?
Lol...
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 27, 2010, 10:32:25 PM
You need to get the definitions right; There is no such thing as overunity. There is only COP > 1.
Overunity is like saying 1 means really 3. But it IS possible to say 1 + 2 = 3.

COP > 1 is when you have one power source managing a device utilizing another source of energy to get more power.
Like the heatpump. You use your grid to power the pump to utilize the energy from the differences in temperature.

This HHO-test is the right way to do tests, but there is too many factors that makes the demo doubtable.
You have losses 3 times converting energy; first when using electricity to make chemical, then chemical to make mechanical, then mechanical to electricity. Bad motor, bad generator.. It is only a question how long this will run with the energy supplied initially. Triple that time, and you have a case.

Only time will make this test trueworthy... This test is only dependent of water. So with a small amount of water added from time to time, it should last for hours without problem... And the load on the ground before connecting it so it don't brake of course.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 10:43:52 PM
Clown?

Isn't that a word closely related with yourself over the past few years?

I wonder, will you ever be able to invent something original?

Like an original insult?
Lol...

You @spinn_MP, is the clown. What are your contributions, clown? Original insults? Not really. Not even that.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 10:45:24 PM
Quote
Overunity is like saying 1 means really 3. But it IS possible to say 1 + 2 = 3.

No, it is not. Overunity is producing energy without extracting it from a pre-existing energy source.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 27, 2010, 10:49:51 PM
this thread is starting to resemble a conversation between a Rabbi, Buddist Monk and a Priest...with a scientist thrown in. (perhaps a clown or two)?
PS the argument re overunity is semantics. To me all that matters is
1. A system can run closed loop and produce excess usable energy(none exist I know of)
2. If water can be used as the only source of fuel (possible but nothing independently validated)
Everything else is just words
many anomalies exist...like black light power have recorded one where there is a clear event taking place...but in 10 years they have failed to apply engineering to put it to any use.
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on December 27, 2010, 10:51:48 PM
Funny, let's hear from the Omnibot's mouth what an "over-unity" really is...

Remember, the creature claims that "OverUnity" has "already been proven beyond any reason of a doubt" - by him, of course, many times in the past.



Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 27, 2010, 10:52:07 PM
No, it is not. Overunity is producing energy without extracting it from a pre-existing energy source.

From nothing, you get nothing. That's why noone has made it. That's why theresn't such thing as overunity.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: helmut on December 27, 2010, 10:55:15 PM
Hi Mark
Today i had a phonecall with oliver.
He told me, that he is very busy with new developments.
If such meeting is organised, it will take all day ( experience)
Because there are many things to present, many matters to discuss.
Please be patient until new vids are available.

The other Problem is, that in the past many Groups came to see everything,talk a lot , others give visons over huge amount of investment, take some Antons with them , and never show up again.

It might be the reason,or one of them, that he has no time for visitors.

helmut



Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 11:06:09 PM
From nothing, you get nothing. That's why noone has made it. That's why theresn't such thing as overunity.

Who said that you can get anything from nothing? I said that OU is when energy is produced and there is no pre-existing energy reservoir. I repeat, energy reservoir. Other things exist but no energy reservoir to tap into. Is that clearer now?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 27, 2010, 11:15:05 PM
Who said that you can get anything from nothing? I said that OU is when energy is produced and there is no pre-existing energy reservoir. I repeat, energy reservoir. Other things exist but no energy reservoir to tap into. Is that clearer now?

Other things exist? But not energy from any known energy reservoir? But if you tap into the other thing that exist (but we don't know about yet), isn't that an energy reservoir then? And we are back to not overunity, but COP > 1.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on December 27, 2010, 11:25:56 PM
Who said that you can get anything from nothing? I said that OU is when energy is produced and there is no pre-existing energy reservoir. I repeat, energy reservoir. Other things exist but no energy reservoir to tap into. Is that clearer now?

Oh, Bot, why are you changing the tunes now?
mr2 said it well, now you're just looking to get yourself out of the trap...

You said what you said, and you said that at many occasions before...
 You clearly said (several thousand of times (look at your post count here), or even at different forums) that "you can get plenty (of energy), out of nothing".

Are you - again - trying to parachute out of the situation?

OmniBot, you're here solely because of the "level" of this site.
I hope that you understand that.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 11:27:06 PM
Other things exist? But not energy from any known energy reservoir? But if you tap into the other thing that exist (but we don't know about yet), isn't that an energy reservoir then? And we are back to not overunity, but COP > 1.

We know about these other things and they are not an energy reservoir. Pre-existing conservative forces and spontaneous displacements are not a pre-existing energy reservoir.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 27, 2010, 11:42:12 PM
OmniBot, you're here solely because of the "level" of this site.
I hope that you understand that.

Level? What level?
I've been here some years amusing me of the "level". Having a beer and a laugh.. Plain entertainment.

This HHO-device thou, is one of the better suggestions.. and at least the right way to provide plausible results..

Remove all factors that may give misunderstandings, doubt..
And nothing beats "TIME".

If they run this on the parking lot for one week, only refilling the water reservoir, who is to doubt the results?
Even I would accept that. They wouldn't even need the load to make me accept that it works.

But I don't see that coming...
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 11:45:59 PM
Oh, Bot, why are you changing the tunes now?
mr2 said it well, now you're just looking to get yourself out of the trap...

You said what you said, and you said that at many occasions before...
 You clearly said (several thousand of times (look at your post count here), or even at different forums) that "you can get plenty (of energy), out of nothing".

Are you - again - trying to parachute out of the situation?

OmniBot, you're here solely because of the "level" of this site.
I hope that you understand that.

Sad, sad that there are such sorry creatures as @spinn_MP infesting this site. They bring the level down but in their delusion it's others who are the culprit. Sad, sad situation.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 11:47:53 PM
Level? What level?
I've been here some years amusing me of the "level". Having a beer and a laugh.. Plain entertainment.

This HHO-device thou, is one of the better suggestions.. and at least the right way to provide plausible results..

Remove all factors that may give misunderstandings, doubt..
And nothing beats "TIME".

If they run this on the parking lot for one week, only refilling the water reservoir, who is to doubt the results?
Even I would accept that. They wouldn't even need the load to make me accept that it works.

But I don't see that coming...

Not so. The HHO-device thus far is one of the least likely devices to be OU, unfortunately. There's nothing about it, as is presented, to hang on to. Just a proposal that needs to be examined properly.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 27, 2010, 11:50:40 PM
We know about these other things and they are not an energy reservoir. Pre-existing conservative forces and spontaneous displacements are not a pre-existing energy reservoir.

This is fun...
You tap into it, using it's energy to run something? And that is not energy? What is it that makes a device run without energy?
Eh.. something that need energy, taps into something that is not energy.. and runs? How could the device run if it doesn't get energy?

Conservative forces and spontanious displacements.. With no energy.. Well..
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 11:52:52 PM
This is fun...
You tap into it, using it's energy to run something? And that is not energy? What is it that makes a device run without energy?
Eh.. something that need energy, taps into something that is not energy.. and runs? How could the device run if it doesn't get energy?

Conservative forces and spontanious displacements.. With no energy.. Well..

Go read some physics first and learn what spontaneous displacement under the action of conservative forces is. Enough with ignoramuses, such as you, infesting this forum.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on December 27, 2010, 11:52:59 PM
Rotfl...

Jeeez, Omni, don't get too emotional...

Have you decided what your next project (forum, etc..) will be?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 27, 2010, 11:53:49 PM
Not so. The HHO-device thus far is one of the least likely devices to be OU, unfortunately. There's nothing about it, as is presented, to hang on to. Just a proposal that needs to be examined properly.

You are very correct. There is no overunity in this device. Or other...
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2010, 11:55:03 PM
Rotfl...

Jeeez, Omni, don't get too emotional...

Have you decided what your next project (forum, etc..) will be?

The above is a crock of crap as everything @spinner_MP has posted thus far. If you don't believe me go read his postings under his profile.

It's not even entertaining to have him elevated as a clown.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 27, 2010, 11:59:39 PM
Go read some physics first and learn what spontaneous displacement under the action of conservative forces is.
so how is it (the said displacement) spontaneous (spontaneous means it is proceeding by itself and without interaction with the rest of the surroundings) when it is, and i quote, "under the action of..."?

i beseech thee oh great omni, to enlighten us unwashed ignoramii...  ::)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2010, 12:03:03 AM
so how is it spontaneous (which means it is proceeding by itself and without interaction with the rest of the surroundings) when it is, and i quote, "under the action of..."?

i beseech thee oh great omni, to enlighten us unwashed ignoramii...  ::)

No. this is not the place to educate you. You have to do it on your own. There's plenty of material on the net, including my own texts explaining that point thoroughly.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 28, 2010, 12:09:57 AM
Go read some physics first and learn what spontaneous displacement under the action of conservative forces is. Enough with ignoramuses, such as you, infesting this forum.

I'm not speaking english too well, so I have to look into it to get the correct translation into my own language.
I searched google for +"spontaneous displacement" +"conservative forces".

I found 2 results. You saying the exactly the same in http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1763.1430
And http://portal.textosescolares.cl/imagen/File/Centro_Documentacion/Libros/Libro_Historia_Ingles_WEB.pdf

So, inlighten me, where do I find info about the "spontaneous displacement" and "conservative forces"?

I read things like that before bedtime so I relax better...



Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 28, 2010, 12:11:57 AM
No. this is not the place to educate you. You have to do it on your own. There's plenty of material on the net, including my own texts explaining that point thoroughly.
there are texts that explain how it (this displacement you speak of) is spontaneous (which means it is proceeding by itself and without interaction with the rest of the surroundings) when it is, and i quote, "under the action of..."? then those texts are obviously contradictory since something that is "under the action of..." is obviously interacting with whatever it is "under the action of" and therefore, not spontaneous... 

obviously
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on December 28, 2010, 12:14:20 AM
Oh Omni, you're so funny!
Like a little kitten...

I know, I know... This is making you really angry, but, can you tell us where is that proof of yours, you know, that thing "which has already been proven beyond any reason of a doubt"...
( I believe you meant the "OU"? and not that you're a moron...)



Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2010, 12:14:47 AM
there are texts that explain how it (this displacement you speak of) is spontaneous (which means it is proceeding by itself and without interaction with the rest of the surroundings) when it is, and i quote, "under the action of..."? then those texts are obviously contradictory since something that is "under the action of..." is obviously interacting with whatever it is "under the action of" and therefore, not spontaneous... 

obviously

What is obvious from the above is that it is ridiculois.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 28, 2010, 12:19:31 AM
What is obvious from the above is that it is ridiculois.
LOL. i hope that isn't your idea of a cogent rebuttal. what is "ridiculois" [sic], is you not using spellcheck... ::).
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 28, 2010, 12:23:41 AM
But any way.. if something is running something, it's always some kind of energy that does the work.
Wherever it comes from.. and whatever it is called... and whatever the cause of it..
Plain logic...
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2010, 12:25:40 AM
LOL. i hope that isn't your idea of a cogent rebuttal. what is "ridiculois" [sic], is you not using spellcheck... ::).

On the contrary, this is my idea of not dealing with ignorant people - tell it as it is, ridiculous. Threads such as this are not a place to look for education. You have to be educated to allow yourself engagement into a discussion on OU. It is not for newbies, less for dabblers and/or people whose sole aim is to cut their utility bills. Discussing OU is a serious matter and has to be approached seriously.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 28, 2010, 12:31:51 AM
On the contrary, this is my idea of not dealing with ignorant people - tell it as it is, ridiculous. Threads such as this are not a place to look for education. You have to be educated to allow yourself engagement into a discussion on OU. It is not for newbies, less for dabblers and/or people whose sole aim is to cut their utility bills. Discussing OU is a serious matter and has to be approached seriously.
another red herring... ::)  LOL  omni, you are as consistent and as predictable as IST.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 28, 2010, 12:32:47 AM
On the contrary, this is my idea of not dealing with ignorant people - tell it as it is, ridiculous. Threads such as this are not a place to look for education. You have to be educated to allow yourself engagement into a discussion on OU. It is not for newbies, less for dabblers and/or people whose sole aim is to cut their utility bills. Discussing OU is a serious matter and has to be approached seriously.

Overunity.. there is no such thing..

I want to read more about the spontanious displacement and conservative forces. Give me any url to read more about it.
There is nothing you can, that I can't learn myself reading..
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2010, 12:38:40 AM
Overunity.. there is no such thing..

I want to read more about the spontanious displacement and conservative forces. Give me any url to read more about it.
There is nothing you can, that I can't learn myself reading..

Not now. In some future thread maybe. This thread is devoted to discussing a HHO-device.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 28, 2010, 12:44:18 AM
But you could use one post telling me that? In same post you could post a couple of URL's.. not wasting anything.
But send it to me in a personal message then. I'll wait.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Big on December 28, 2010, 12:46:34 AM
Alright.  I just got the email with the links and finished watching the videos.   (That Apple ad was a nice touch.) ;)  So, playing devil's advocate for a moment, here's my first impression of what could be said about what was shown.

It looked like the patients had taken over the asylum.  I'm not sure the purpose of the video, but it was very institutional in look and feel.

One also couldn't help but think, "What a great hoax!".  I liked the way that particular parts of the process were out of sight at just the right times.

The light stopped working, so there was no electricity.  The plastic "fuel" bottle actually got filled back up at one point.  (Alcohol?)  Perhaps the source was the thing that looked like a fuel cell.  Other components were not explained, and could be used to distract the viewer's attention away from other things.

It was reasonable to wonder why the darn thing had to be wheeled around thru hallways and be made to transverse who knows how many floors to get outside.  One could reasonably expect that the big finale was awaiting outside.  But "No".  Nothing happened out there either.  How odd.

One was left wondering what the purpose of the video was all about.  And what happened while the lights were out?

Okay, with that said, I realise that someone in their infinite wisdom will direct the viewer to read the ten pages of comments in this forum.  Like that's ever going to happen.  Most people don't have that sort of time.

In reality, it was a bad idea, with a bad setup and bad ending, and it was not something that could be handled properly in this sort of forum.

At the end of the day, we just want the bottom line.  What is it, how does it work, what are all the parts and where are the double-blind test results.  And, please, let's have a simple executive's summary.

Just my humble opinion.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2010, 12:57:30 AM
But you could use one post telling me that? In same post you could post a couple of URL's.. not wasting anything.
But send it to me in a personal message then. I'll wait.
Thanks.

OK, I'll send you a link via pm but I don't want any input from you discussing it. Just read it, learn it and don't bother assessing or asking me questions. All right?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2010, 12:59:40 AM
Done.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Low-Q on December 28, 2010, 01:05:44 AM
On the contrary, this is my idea of not dealing with ignorant people - tell it as it is, ridiculous. Threads such as this are not a place to look for education. You have to be educated to allow yourself engagement into a discussion on OU. It is not for newbies, less for dabblers and/or people whose sole aim is to cut their utility bills. Discussing OU is a serious matter and has to be approached seriously.
I would suggest to look for energy sources which is more obvious and easier to harness rather than spending milleniums in the search for overunity. My sons railtrack are still missing pieces - I look forward to that day those missing railtrack pieces shows up from thin air.
There is just one minor problem; There are no such thing as over unity, because the nature does not want to develop in that direction - but rather in the opposite direction. Nature wants to approach equilibrium. In this process we can harness the potential which is in a constant change - untill the "day" everything has equalized and found its equilibrium.
Our sun are the most obvious energy source as long it shines up there in the sky, which has given us steel balls + magnets (SMOT), waterfalls, wind, HHO, etc. etc. If everything on this planet are suppose to work as a cause of the constant fading energy from the sun, we cannot expect to find overunity - not in this planet - and not even with a SMOT.

Vidar
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 28, 2010, 01:09:13 AM
OK, I'll send you a link via pm but I don't want any input from you discussing it. Just read it, learn it and don't bother assessing or asking me questions. All right?

Thanks

Got it, printed it out. Lecture at bed.
I will enjoy it I see.. :)
But you will discuss it in one of your threads.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mr2 on December 28, 2010, 01:12:45 AM
I would suggest to look for energy sources which is more obvious and easier to harness rather than spending milleniums in the search for overunity. My sons railtrack are still missing pieces - I look forward to that day those missing railtrack pieces shows up from thin air.
There is just one minor problem; There are no such thing as over unity, because the nature does not want to develop in that direction - but rather in the opposite direction. Nature wants to approach equilibrium. In this process we can harness the potential which is in a constant change - untill the "day" everything has equalized and foud its equilibrium.
Our sun are the most obvious energy source as long it shines up there in the sky, which has given us steel balls + magnets (SMOT), waterfalls, wind, HHO, etc. etc. If everything on this planet are suppose to work as a cause of the constant fading energy from the sun, we cannot expect to find overunity - not in this planet - and not even with a SMOT.

Vidar

Very well said.
Title: OUR FUTURE ENERGY SOURCE -- THE VACUUM: there's no void or empty Space! (RC)
Post by: xmark on December 28, 2010, 01:45:19 AM
I think we are missing what is the definition of OU.

I like Tom Bearden's definition. He wrote a nice book explaining it in details: Energy from the Vaccum.

Hi. Aspden too, through the whole of his lifetime seminal work; eg. http://www.aspden.org/papers/P2002a/Berlin.htm

In the end OU is simply energy from sources that we just dont know yet, just like Omni said. It will eventually be well know and OU term will simply die. We all will be running our houses from "the wheel of nature" (Tesla words).

Fausto.

Imho, in spite of all the troubles that man and the world face, during this current period of transition, are there more appropriate times for the new discoveries that are meant to redefine ourselves and reshape the world we live in?! Age of Innovations at hand...
 
What is that energy unknown to science?

Although the physical inventions that lead to progress must come from Science through "trial and error", that is, before an invention can be found efficient and useful, an amount of experimental work needs to be conducted to correct the concrete-manifested imperfections of the original ideas-thoughts, simultaneously teaching us how TO THINK RIGHT; from my viewpoint, the most accurate account that may provide us with the background to better understand the current efforts to harvest "that [sea of] energy unknown to [current mainstream] science" comes not from the scientist but from the Mystic; Logic being the guide:

Quote
   In the earliest dawn of man's existence he dealt principally with the SOLIDS; his first implements were such stones, sharp or blunt, as he found ready at hand. Later he commenced to trust himself to the LIQUIDS when propelling his first crude craft on water or to turn the primitive water mill. Still later he learned to use a GAS--wind--as a force of propulsion for ships and mills.

   That was an immense advancement; it brought the most distant parts of the world into communication, and widened the scope of man's knowledge immeasurably, but even the progress attained by the use of air power fades into insignificance before the strides we have made wince we started to use the more ethereal gas--steam power. That has turned the wheels of progress at a rate which leaves us dumb with astonishment. Yet even the wonders accomplished by steam are as nothing when compared to the thousand and one improvements in communication and knowledge development by the utilization of that still finer force--electricity, which circles the globe with a message in fewer seconds than the years it would have required by earlier means of propulsion.

   Thus we see that human progress has been accomplished by the use of finer and finer forces and that each time we have learned to utilize a subtler energy than heretofore used we have made a wonderful stride in civilization.

   This view is one we have not usually accustomed ourselves to take; we usually associate solidity and strength as if they were synonymous terms, but a little observation will readily show us the fallacy of that idea.

   The waves of the sea, which are fluid will raze the decks of a ship if a few moments, twist and bent the strongest iron stanchions as if they were but wires. The winds may blow the masts of a ship overboard in the twinkle of an eye, yet winds are but air, a gas. Water, a fluid, is tearing down the hills of Seattle, Washington, and making the city level at a rate impossible to the solid pick and shovel. When we look at the great locomotives with their extremely heavily built trains and we admire their ponderous bulk, do we ever realize that the reason why they have to be so solidly built is because they are to be acted upon by an invisible elastic gas-steam?

   The waterwheel was of no use as a power producer except when in direct contact with a stationary source of energy, a waterfall. Wind power was better, it could be used as a force of propulsion all over the world, but was fickle and uncertain. Steam was more nearly ideal, as it is procurable AT WILL almost ANYWHERE, but required ponderous machinery to be moved around wherever the force is to be used, as best illustrated by the locomotive, which is such a movable power plant. Electricity may be transmitted for many miles by means of little wire and can be used anywhere along that line; it may be stored, bottled in fact, and taken along; it may even be transmitted from place to place without wires along the all-pervading ether.

   We have shown that man's progress in the past has been accomplished by the utilization of forces of increasing subtlety--water, air, steam, electricity--and that the increasing utility of each of these forces is further enhanced by the facility with which it may be transmitted and utilized at various places. The latest advancement is the transmission of energy from a central source to various points without visible material connection as in the wireless telegraphy.

   Having reviewed past accomplishments, it must be evident that the FURTHER PROGRESS OF THE HUMAN RACE DEPENDS UPON THE DISCOVERY AND UTILIZATION OF A YET FINER ENERGY TRANSMISSIBLE WITH STILL GREATER FACILITY THAN EITHER OF THE FORCES YET KNOWN.

   What is that new force--what will it accomplish in the advancement of the human race--and along what lines are we to look for its discovery? Such is the natural threefold question, and we shall attempt to answer it.

   In his "Coming Race," [link (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1951/1951-h/1951-h.htm)] Bulwer Lytton gave us an inkling of what that coming force will be. Like all other such stories it has never been taken seriously, but regarded only as the fantastic imagination of a clever writer. Jules Verne's stories met with a like attitude of admiration for this vivid fancy (?) upon the part of the public, yet how much in them has already been realized? "Around the World in Eighty Days" is too slow for the twentieth century globe trotter. Submarine navigation and bird-like flights are facts today.

   In truth, THE HUMAN MIND IS INCAPABLE OF IMAGINING ANYTHING THAT CANNOT BE ACHIEVED. That seems an extravagant statement, but it is not justifiable in view of what has been done? And reverting to our main line of argument, something akin to the VRIL of Bulwer must be discovered before man can take the next great step in advancement. True, great and marvelous discoveries lie ahead of us in the further exploitation of the forces we already possess, but the next GREAT STEP depends upon the discovery of and the preparation for the use of the coming force. Attempts at making the steam engine were made many centuries ago by the ancients before we succeeded in the latter days. Electricity was known in a very small way also by them, but it took a long time to ripen these ideas sufficiently to make them directly available for use; similarly, while we go ahead and exploit these forces we know we must also prepare for the coming force and if we can find it we may be able to find the means of using it the quicker. Let us look a little closer at Bulwer Lytton's Vril, it may be that beneath the fantastic garb a valuable clue is hidden.

-- Max Heindel (1908), The RCL Nº19: THE COMING FORCE--VRIL OR WHAT?

Hope these brief lines may be found helpful to foster constructive aims.

Merry Christmas (season),
from Portugal
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 03:13:20 AM
I saw a very good video.

Science teaches that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.

Overunity is scientifically impossible.

Where does this extra energy come from?

lets see     electromagnetic energy is the basis of the Universe.

hmmmmm   what if there was another(a third basic block) of energy/matter?

Would this not explain Tesla, Meyers, others?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2010, 03:21:21 AM
Quote
Overunity is scientifically impossible.

Where does this extra energy come from?

Not true. While the extra energy isn't coming from a pre-existing energy source, it is coming from spontaneous displacement under the action of a conservative force (neither of those latter factors is pre-existing energy and yet their combination produces energy).
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 03:27:53 AM
If it is not true      explain Tesla and meyers        shoot even explain fast freddie    they all say the same thing if you are paying attention


What is the one theme they all say?  Several other folks on this thread have said as much.  And yes I have read every post on this thread.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2010, 03:39:57 AM
If it is not true      explain Tesla and meyers        shoot even explain fast freddie    they all say the same thing if you are paying attention


What is the one theme they all say?  Several other folks on this thread have said as much.  And yes I have read every post on this thread.

Tesla and the other mentioned do not have OU devices so there's nothing to explain.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 03:48:22 AM
I am impressed

Funny my 12 year old son is named Nikoli(stupid me, i thought Nikoli Tesla was if not the premier genius of our time, at least up there.)

Why did JP Morgan quit building Tesla's tower?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2010, 03:54:20 AM
I am impressed

Funny my 12 year old son is named Nikoli(stupid me, i thought Nikoli Tesla was if not the premier genius of our time, at least up there.)

Why did JP Morgan quit building Tesla's tower?

Not because it had anything to do with OU.
Title: G...
Post by: xmark on December 28, 2010, 04:20:43 AM
Withdrawing post: i have misread the original post; my apologies.
___
...a direct inverse-square of distance force?!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 04:22:54 AM
Actually agree with you.   Nothing to do with UO, but morgan thought so. m Who produces free energy to the world might as well been over unity.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 04:24:50 AM
I would like to remind all that there is no such thing as an OU device.

C.O.P. of 1 is considered unity. Need I remind you that your houses heat/AC pump operates between 3-4?

Solar, wind, and hydroelectric are considered C.O.P. infinity systems. 1 simple fact people keep over looking to try to push there misconceptions on truly open minds. You on an over unity forum trying to say over unity isn't real.

Doesn't that seem kindda redundant and stupid? Who the hell are you to say the world top quantum physicists are liars?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 04:32:38 AM
I saw a very good video.

Science teaches that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.

Overunity is scientifically impossible.

Where does this extra energy come from?

lets see     electromagnetic energy is the basis of the Universe.

hmmmmm   what if there was another(a third basic block) of energy/matter?

Would this not explain Tesla, Meyers, others?

No, it would not. They all had 1 simple thing in common. They didn't believe in 1 or the other, they believed that systems could be modeled after the universe and life it's self. Duality based systems that use BOTH sides of the energy fields.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 04:53:19 AM
@questioneverything

let me ask a question?  or two ......

First, present scientific theory suggests that electromagnetism is the basic building blocks of the Universe and science.  Electricity and magnetism.  The question is what if there is actually a third?

Something that Stan Meyer, Nikoli Tesla(who I named my first born son after), and even you have alluded to, even fast freddie, as well as many in the effort to create amazing results.

I personally do not believe in over-unity.  However I do believe we have not discover all there is to know about energy and how it may be harnessed.   I have studied forum after forum, book after book, inventor after inventer, pioneer after pioneer and have come to one simple conclusion.  We are missing a chunk of the puzzle.  Men like Tesla and Meyer only proved that we do not have all the facts to prove that for every action there is an opposite an equal reaction.  How did they create an action that proved the reaction?

I have read every single post on this thread.  Amazing results on the trolley from lab to elevator, to ....    The naysayers and the proponents.  Everyone has an opinion.  You see what is on the trolley, build your own.  Prove or disprove.  Test and ask questions.

Some folks only wish to rip apart other folks research.  Ignore them.  Some folks wish to share their research,  share back with them.  Some folks wish to share overviews but not detail, try to replicate on your own.  Try yourself, and fail or succeed, but try.

I am build a 80 cell "brick" presently.  If it performs for size and current it will put my chevy suburban at 50 miles per gallon.  No it is not pure HHO, but it saves me enough to pay for some more research into HHO.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 05:14:52 AM
@questioneverything

let me ask a question?  or two ......

First, present scientific theory suggests that electromagnetism is the basic building blocks of the Universe and science.  Electricity and magnetism.  The question is what if there is actually a third?

Something that Stan Meyer, Nikoli Tesla(who I named my first born son after), and even you have alluded to, even fast freddie, as well as many in the effort to create amazing results.

I personally do not believe in over-unity.  However I do believe we have not discover all there is to know about energy and how it may be harnessed.   I have studied forum after forum, book after book, inventor after inventer, pioneer after pioneer and have come to one simple conclusion.  We are missing a chunk of the puzzle.  Men like Tesla and Meyer only proved that we do not have all the facts to prove that for every action there is an opposite an equal reaction.  How did they create an action that proved the reaction?

I have read every single post on this thread.  Amazing results on the trolley from lab to elevator, to ....    The naysayers and the proponents.  Everyone has an opinion.  You see what is on the trolley, build your own.  Prove or disprove.  Test and ask questions.

Some folks only wish to rip apart other folks research.  Ignore them.  Some folks wish to share their research,  share back with them.  Some folks wish to share overviews but not detail, try to replicate on your own.  Try yourself, and fail or succeed, but try.

I am build a 80 cell "brick" presently.  If it performs for size and current it will put my chevy suburban at 50 miles per gallon.  No it is not pure HHO, but it saves me enough to pay for some more research into HHO.

There is no third energy in the sense you speak of. That proverbial 3rd rail is actually a combination of the other 2. It is in effect a virtual 3rd rail.

First, it's Nikola, not Nikoli. Look at any of the old documents with his signature.

We do have that missing puzzle piece, but the establishment will not allow us to use it. It is to threatening to their very existence. It's why Tesla has been all but erased from history. They don't want people to realize their true potential to crack mother natures riddles.

You can not see the truth of that 3rd rail because your looking at it from the wrong angle. The entire universe and life it's self are a duality, two, but if you bring the 2 together in 1 system you get 3. This is where I wind up questioning....what if 2+2 isn't 4, what if it's actually 22?

I quit dealing with water based experiments when I lost control of a submerged plasma spark that drove the water temp to super-heated in a matter of seconds. It is way to dangerous for me to even want to continue so I started focusing on electromagnetism, and discovered that virtual 3rd rail when studying a car alternator that I had removed the coils from the stator in.

Later on I found out that it was originaly a discovery made my Tesla, but never documented, so it kindda killed that ME feeling, but it is sound.

There are 3 ways to disprove over unity. Efficiency, free energy word play, perpetual motion word play.

But only 1 way to prove it. Co-efficient of performance, or C.O.P.

Efficiency is a rating of losses in any given system, NOTHING is free even if it's so close the line is blured, and NOTHING can run forever. Batteries break down and die, machines break down and fail, and time deteriorates all things.

But C.O.P. rates total energy out compaired to what YOU YOURSELF supply. If you supply 1/2 energy input and the other 1/2 comes from the environment (earth batteries, solar, wind, radiant, water...ect) that YOU didn't supply, you get a C.O.P. of 2 in a perfect system. THEN 1 can run the system in a closed loop while 1 is free to utilize.

If you want to know EXACTLY how to do this, email me and I will send non-disclosure and non-circumvention agreements. This is just to ensure people keep their mouths shut so the wrong people don't catch wind of it indirectly.

The forms are from a company in another state, but I will be whiting out their info and filling in mine. Already had 1 guy splitting hairs about this. His loss.

babygirl8181980@gmail.com
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on December 28, 2010, 05:26:05 AM


@Les Banki
Thank you sir for sharing that info[reposted below],I will be sure to study

Chet

ramset (Chet),

I am pleased that at least ONE person (you) is prepared to spend a few minutes to read/study those files!

I write these very detailed circuit descriptions mainly for the benefit of others but they also serve to refresh my own memory.
As the years pass, my designs getting more and more complex.
Sometimes I need to look at a design which I have done perhaps a year (or more) ago and I find myself scratching my head:
"How the hell is THIS supposed to work?"

A quick read of my own description and I 'get it'!
Further, these descriptions have another, very important purpose!
They save me repeatedly answering a LOT of questions!
Now, when someone is asking a question, I can simply say:
Please read my thesis on the subject and/or the circuit description!

Since no circuit description will make any sense without the circuit diagram(s), I have attached the ones related to the ignition/injection process.

Please keep in mind that these circuits are already working but they will be altered (and circuit descriptions edited) in order to match the feed-back loop I am in the process of designing.

The MAIN change will be to try to run the ignition/injection sections on a 5V supply since ONE device (Digital Potentiometer) is rated at only 5V. (All the other ICs work happily on 12V!)

More about this later....

helmut,

Thanks for your post.  My sentiments exactly.....!!
Oh, don't worry about your English, it is perfectly understandable! 
(English is NOT my native tongue either but my 5th language....)

questioneverything,

"I'm an ASE trained mechanic, exactly what is the state of ignition flame front and it's behavior at the moment of ignition?"

How would I know?  I am not a mechanic....javascript:void(0);
Just kidding!

In his last post on this thread Stefan was/is SPOT ON pointing out that HHO does not burn but DETONATES!
In case you don't know this, the detonation speed of good quality Hydroxy (HHO, Brown's Gas, whatever name you care to put on it)
is somewhere between 3000m to 10000m per second, depending on certain factors.
Due to this PHENOMENAL speed, the kinetic energy is ENORMOUS!!
Unfortunately for us, we are only able to utilize a small fraction of it!
At atmospheric pressure, even a very low energy static spark is enough to detonate this gas!
These factors seem to be overlooked by the 'skeptics' and the "know-all" armchair 'experts'!

C.O.P. of 1 is considered unity. Need I remind you that your houses heat/AC pump operates between 3-4?

Solar, wind, and hydroelectric are considered C.O.P. infinity systems. 1 simple fact people keep over looking to try to push there misconceptions on truly open minds. You on an over unity forum trying to say over unity isn't real.

Doesn't that seem kindda redundant and stupid? Who the hell are you to say the world top quantum physicists are liars?

Excellent!!

All,

Please have a close look at this topic/thread!
Since it was started by Stefan a few days ago, only a few posts are on topic!
The rest is bickering about definitions, name calling, etc.
I rest my case....

Best regards to all,
Les Banki





Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 05:45:08 AM
questioneverything,

"I'm an ASE trained mechanic, exactly what is the state of ignition flame front and it's behavior at the moment of ignition?"

How would I know?  I am not a mechanic....javascript:void(0);
Just kidding!

In his last post on this thread Stefan was/is SPOT ON pointing out that HHO does not burn but DETONATES!
In case you don't know this, the detonation speed of good quality Hydroxy (HHO, Brown's Gas, whatever name you care to put on it)
is somewhere between 3000m to 10000m per second, depending on certain factors.
Due to this PHENOMENAL speed, the kinetic energy is ENORMOUS!!
Unfortunately for us, we are only able to utilize a small fraction of it!
At atmospheric pressure, even a very low energy static spark is enough to detonate this gas!
These factors seem to be overlooked by the 'skeptics' and the "know-all" armchair 'experts'!

Excellent!!

All,

Please have a close look at this topic/thread!
Since it was started by Stefan a few days ago, only a few posts are on topic!
The rest is bickering about definitions, name calling, etc.
I rest my case....

Best regards to all,
Les Banki

First, in an ICE you want combustion, NOT detonation. THAT is the problem with your ignition. Try injecting a little steam to slow the process from detonation to combustion.

Second, in now way did I call him stupid, I was referring to his statements, not him. For all I know he may be a collage professor. Such a shallow perception of things is why people continue to overlook the most simple answers.

I've left a trail of bread crumbs 1/2 mile wide, and still no one here has followed it, and the few that emailed me, 1 of them was a headhunter who is now shipping me an oscilloscope and several meters, along with a little funding to get the final parts needed to make it a full blown Tesla based system.

Like I said many times before, I don't give a flying fu** if you believe me or not, it's Tesla's work, not mine. I'm simply bringing it to light since Tesla left it undocumented.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 05:59:53 AM
@Les Banki

I am only a year into studying hho.  i was able to see you work in a couple other forums and have been intrigued by your work. 

I am using an old diesel four stroke engine/generator 5 kilowatts for my experimenting.  You are stating the flamewall is 3 to 10k per second detonation which is obviously well above diesel combustion.  What do you say to injecting water or steam to slow down the detonation to combustion fronts to drive the pistons?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 06:02:28 AM
@Les Banki

I am only a year into studying hho.  i was able to see you work in a couple other forums and have been intrigued by your work. 

I am using an old diesel four stroke engine/generator 5 kilowatts for my experimenting.  You are stating the flamewall is 3 to 10k per second detonation which is obviously well above diesel combustion.  What do you say to injecting water or steam to slow down the detonation to combustion fronts to drive the pistons?

Way to change someone elses post to look like it's yours! What a fraud!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 06:36:02 AM
Nice

What a fraud?  Yep I am a fraud.  I tell people how smart I am, yet do not really give them anything.

Yep I am a fraud for asking a question and some idiot who knows everything comes down with both feet.

Yes, I am a fraud because I absolutely read every post in every forum.

Yes i am a fraud because my three engineering and IT degrees show that I am just lazy and stupid.

Well this fraud has had enough.  This appears to be another attack forum rather than a discussion forum

Ray
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 06:42:34 AM
Nice

What a fraud?  Yep I am a fraud.  I tell people how smart I am, yet do not really give them anything.

Yep I am a fraud for asking a question and some idiot who knows everything comes down with both feet.

Yes, I am a fraud because I absolutely read every post in every forum.

Yes i am a fraud because my three engineering and IT degrees show that I am just lazy and stupid.

Well this fraud has had enough.  This appears to be another attack forum rather than a discussion forum

Ray

No, your a fraud for trying to take credit for something someone else already said.

And trying to keep real tech out of the wrong hands does not make me a fraud, it makes me cautious.

Only an idiot would make such a bold statement with no investigation whatsoever. I'm not asking for money, I'm not asking for trust, I'm not even asking for a stamped sealed reply. I ask for a signature to keep the good stuff in the hands of the good people, and that costs absolutely nothing.

I share Tesla's secret with anyone willing to investigate, which you apparently are not willing to do since you made a post bashing me with ABSOLUTELY NO INFORMATION WHATSOEVER!

Get a life asshole.

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."....Albert Einstein
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 07:03:23 AM
Nice

I do not ask for money

I do not ask for you to believe me, even when you attack me.

I only ask that you have an open mind. 

I only ask that you look at everything, not how much you attack me.

I only asked, what if there is a third leg?  what if electromagnetism is not the end all of end alls?  What if what science of today can be just a stepping stone of tomorrow?

I only asked, but asking brought the elitists. 

I was an elitist, but found only ashes when I awoke.

Explain to me again how over unity and not knowing have in common?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 07:05:39 AM
Oh by the way, what have you shared?  Other to attack those who wish to learn?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 07:16:21 AM
Nice

I do not ask for money

I do not ask for you to believe me, even when you attack me.

I only ask that you have an open mind. 

I only ask that you look at everything, not how much you attack me.

I only asked, what if there is a third leg?  what if electromagnetism is not the end all of end alls?  What if what science of today can be just a stepping stone of tomorrow?

I only asked, but asking brought the elitists. 

I was an elitist, but found only ashes when I awoke.

Explain to me again how over unity and not knowing have in common?

None of that made any sense or relation to anything said, and your trying to make links that were never even hinted at.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 07:19:14 AM
Oh by the way, what have you shared?  Other to attack those who wish to learn?

Ive met people like you before. You reword other people stuff to try to take credit, then start stupid word play games to try to fish out information in a way to make it where you can explain the device you had absolutely nothing to do with. ANOTHER manipulated technique to gain credit for someone else's work before they can.

Short of a bullet in the head there's no way to shut people like you up, so I'm not even going to try. Anyone with a brain in their skull can see you are nothing more than a manipulating fraud on a fishing trip. Your chilish, immature "your not telling cause you can't do it" attitude won't work on me. Go find a sucker, sucker.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 07:54:44 AM
After careful consideration, I have decided that the risk is to great to continue accepting agreements and releasing the information. The headhunter and others I am already in contact with is enough for me.

You can thank ray8abit for presenting the unspoken threat to the entire field. HE is the reason for this decision.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on December 28, 2010, 08:34:41 AM
Nice

What a fraud?  Yep I am a fraud.  I tell people how smart I am, yet do not really give them anything.

Yep I am a fraud for asking a question and some idiot who knows everything comes down with both feet.

Yes, I am a fraud because I absolutely read every post in every forum.

Yes i am a fraud because my three engineering and IT degrees show that I am just lazy and stupid.

Well this fraud has had enough.  This appears to be another attack forum rather than a discussion forum

Ray

Ray,

Please try to calm down.
I was actually confused who that line was referring to.  You or me?
But then, "questioneverything" has confirmed that it was directed at you.

Ray, I am in complete agreement with your statements.
So much so that if these unfounded attacks and abuse continue,
I AM OUT OF HERE!!!
I am more than happy to help you PRIVATELY.
Yes, water or steam injection has been used for many years for hydrocarbon fuels and now HHO as well.
(I have a book dealing with that subject.)

Just email me at "lbanki at optusnet dot com dot au" (just fix the email address)
(By the way, that goes for others as well who wish to communicate without being abused.)

questioneverything,

I understand that you are a young hot-head.  That's OK.
I agree with many things you say but sometimes you don't make much sense.
For example: "THAT is the problem with your ignition."
With all due respect, how can the ignition system be a "problem" in a combustion versus detonation case???
A spark is a bloody spark, whether it causes combustion OR detonation!!

Further, you claim that I said you called 'him' an idiot?
Who are you referring to???
Please clarify.

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 08:48:51 AM
Ray,

Please try to calm down.
I was actually confused who that line was referring to.  You or me?
But then, "questioneverything" has confirmed that it was directed at you.

Ray, I am in complete agreement with your statements.
So much so that if these unfounded attacks and abuse continue,
I AM OUT OF HERE!!!
I am more than happy to help you PRIVATELY.
Yes, water or steam injection has been used for many years for hydrocarbon fuels and now HHO as well.
(I have a book dealing with that subject.)

Just email me at "lbanki at optusnet dot com dot au" (just fix the email address)
(By the way, that goes for others as well who wish to communicate without being abused.)

questioneverything,

I understand that you are a young hot-head.  That's OK.
I agree with many things you say but sometimes you don't make much sense.
For example: "THAT is the problem with your ignition."
With all due respect, how can the ignition system be a "problem" in a combustion versus detonation case???
A spark is a bloody spark, whether it causes combustion OR detonation!!

Further, you claim that I said you called 'him' an idiot?
Who are you referring to???
Please clarify.

Best regards,
Les Banki

My purpose has been accomplished. It is apparent that people here rather take advise from the rewording of an original source than from the source it's self.

The level of incompetence is more than I can stand. I did everything except spell it out for you and none of you have gotten the point. I knew you wouldn't, that's why I posted the pic. It is a dead giveaway but the inability to spot the obvious has lead to the corruption of the most basic thought processes.

THAT was in reference to the difference in detonation and combustion. The context of that small paragraph was obviously lost on you. A spark is a spark, but some are hotter than others. But it doesn't matter what spark you use, an ICE is an internal COMBUSTION engine. Detonation causes damage and it will not run properly. That is why spark plug go in the head off center and at an angle.

It doesn't matter what spark or fuel you use, you need combustion, not detonation. This supports my original statement that no one here is able to spot the obvious. Even when it's spelled out for you. That post had nothing to do with the ignition. It was solely the comparison between detonation and combustion, yet somehow you are still stuck on a spark is a spark is a spark.

FYI, I'm 30 and dying from complications that arise over time after my neck was broken. People don't get attacked unless there's a reason. At the time I was releasing hidden cures to common illnesses. I was a threat to a major medical profit margin.

But it doesn't matter anymore. When people start taking the side of a manipulator, it's time for me to leave.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: questioneverything on December 28, 2010, 09:03:45 AM
I'm sure more than a few of you will be happy about this. There is no place for logic in your delusions.

Can someone please tell me how to delete my account here?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 28, 2010, 11:24:13 AM
@questioneverything

let me ask a question?  or two ......

First, present scientific theory suggests that electromagnetism is the basic building blocks of the Universe and science.  Electricity and magnetism.  The question is what if there is actually a third?

Something that Stan Meyer, Nikoli Tesla(who I named my first born son after), and even you have alluded to, even fast freddie, as well as many in the effort to create amazing results.

I personally do not believe in over-unity.  However I do believe we have not discover all there is to know about energy and how it may be harnessed.   I have studied forum after forum, book after book, inventor after inventer, pioneer after pioneer and have come to one simple conclusion.  We are missing a chunk of the puzzle.  Men like Tesla and Meyer only proved that we do not have all the facts to prove that for every action there is an opposite an equal reaction.  How did they create an action that proved the reaction?

I have read every single post on this thread.  Amazing results on the trolley from lab to elevator, to ....    The naysayers and the proponents.  Everyone has an opinion.  You see what is on the trolley, build your own.  Prove or disprove.  Test and ask questions.

Some folks only wish to rip apart other folks research.  Ignore them.  Some folks wish to share their research,  share back with them.  Some folks wish to share overviews but not detail, try to replicate on your own.  Try yourself, and fail or succeed, but try.

I am build a 80 cell "brick" presently.  If it performs for size and current it will put my chevy suburban at 50 miles per gallon.  No it is not pure HHO, but it saves me enough to pay for some more research into HHO.

Well its the correct way to go and build the damn thing. It will only cost about 500 euro/dollars for the Chinese genset and HHO cell and if it don't work you can sell most of it.

Its a pity you don't understand what OU means! An Air Con system is OU. It has a COP>1 in fact its about 3 to 4. Over Unity means more than ONE. If you get more back of anything then you put into it then its an OU device. Your Air Con on heat setting you pay for 1Kw of electric and you get 3Kw-4Kw out to heat your house. No need to worry about where the extra came from it irrelevant. But different systems provide the excess in different ways. Kapanadze, TPU and other related things are Radiant Energy devices. Usually a small battery starts them then they run forever unless something over heats or blows.

 Likewise the HHO looper is a Radiant Energy device. Cracking water is a charge separation  of  electron bonding process. During recombination under pressure and in the presence of a spark it has at LEAST > COP 3 where it turns back to water as it undergoes energy transformation and radiant energy is introduced to the system and puffs out the water from the exhaust. So the only thing needed to add to keep it going is water. BUT even that can be recycled as the water is actually only a PROXY.  But who cares its water for fuel!   Read about Atomic Hydrogen and also read about JLN Labs test and validation for Atomic Hydrogen. He recorded a COP of 21! No its not identical but its RELATED technology.

http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/index.htm

A typical ICE creates favorable conditions having compression, HHO mix and a High voltage spark.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 28, 2010, 03:22:17 PM
The level of incompetence is more than I can stand. I did everything except spell it out for you and none of you have gotten the point.

yeah i know right!! so before you die of your broken neck or whatever, please learn the difference between you're and your...  ::) sorry i had to spell it out for you. ;)

p.s. you can't delete your account. but i'm sure we can rely on your integrity. ;)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Low-Q on December 28, 2010, 04:28:56 PM
I'm sure more than a few of you will be happy about this. There is no place for logic in your delusions.

Can someone please tell me how to delete my account here?
I do take a break once in a while, and whish I never signed up here, but a few days later I just can't stop myself from visiting this site again. This site needs any point of view. Arguing about things are quite common when everyone sits on the truth. So please do not cancel your membership. This forum needs everyone - both ignorant (Not in the bad sense), and well educated persons. :)

Vidar
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: neptune on December 28, 2010, 05:01:59 PM
It always seems a shame and a waste when sensible threads degenerate into name calling and insults .We all need to try to see the other guys viewpoint , even if we dis agree with it . It seems to me that scientific knowledge and social skills can not coexist in the same individual . I am probably an excellent example , as I know how to be polite , but my technical knowledge leaves much to be desired . How about a New Year Resolution to try to get on better together . Much more will thus be achieved
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: sushimoto on December 28, 2010, 06:09:39 PM
@sushimotto
I am afraid you have me mixed up with Markscoffman, that is not me. I do not recall having any correspondence with you.

Mark,
Sorry for the mess i made.
Pls take my appologies.

Quote
As you have seen with the person who owns this forum and others like Sterling Allen's FREEENERGYNEWS they are claiming self running and major breakthrough. I understand these are not your words but it is a natural interpretation that anyone would put on seeing the video.
Thanks a lot for recognizing that.

Quote
Your cells are very high quality product but I am not sure their efficiency is any more than some others that are out there.

We have made some comparsion, but the issue is NOT for rivalry or competition.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia#p/a/u/1/V14Y0KhrHgU

EVERY Cell is the right direction towards a non-fossil and better world.
It should be absolutely clear, that we are facing a lot of further
development and (creative) experiments of how we use the gases produced.
One thing is for sure: It comes from Water and gets into Water without
any damages to the environment.

Quote

I am a little confussed about if this is an open source project or not.

ANTON started as a common and basic system for experimenters.
Some modified it to a fuel Cell, other made it a NiFe-battery.
It up to the Teams, whether they publish their work on a puplic license,
open Source, GPL or however they have an outcome with their effords..

Quote
From reading the German threads you do have detail about your cell and ignition modification. However I do have a couple of questions for you (assuming it is open sourced, if not no need to reply)
1. What other modifications did you do to the motor(valve timing, cam modifications, spark plug etc)?
2. Have you had the exhaust gas analysed and what was the results?
3. Were any other hydrocarbons present in the bubblier or cell.
I was not aware of any commercial arrangements you have with Chava or any other company or anyone else you may have met.  That is of course your own business and no one elses.
I do however congradulate you on your work.

The experiment with the  ICE was just
another quick'n dirty "proof of possibilities" like all the other experiments and
tests we've made with the molecules of H's, O's and some N's.
Nobody should nail us with the 4-stroke machine,
because we want to get rid of this ancient concept.
Its a nice "boystoy", but who wants to heat his
home with a noisy genset made in cheap-china?

Its much more interesting to reverse the
electrolytic process with solid state technologies.

If you watch the "opensource"-communities, you may notify,
that there are a lot of forces out there with great lack in creativity and phantasy.
There is a great lack in knowledge and professionality also.
We are workers and no politians or involved with this abstract "war of opinions".
Any substantiated and constructive participation is welcome.

Best regards,
Oliver


Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 28, 2010, 07:04:30 PM
I apologize for carrying nonsensically last evening.  I had an extra beer or two, was feeling a little better than I should have and let myself become upset over what I saw as a slight.  Again my apologies.

I am most interested in making my home and vehicles work at their most efficient.  I do not care if someone builds a commercial interest or not.  I am interested in finding the truth, I have given up the corporate enviroment to raise my children and study energy.  my motto is KISS(keep it simple      )

I understand the COP>1, yet I want to know where the extra energy comes from.  In my small imagination I cannot imagine it coming from nothing.  In the real world it means more efficiency as a result, but I am more interested in where does this energy derive from?  If we can possibly discover what this energy that others have harnessed is, then we can become a world of nearly free energy.  I am not so stupid to think that everything is free, there is the cost of materials, time, etc.

I have been looking at wave forms and harmonics because of something that is purported of Tesla to say that ended his tower.  He was going to tune the earth to draw energy from it.  paraphrased.
When I was studying the Meyers design, and then this guy fast freddie has made some incredible statements about harmonics(hopefully I am using simple information to show my point), maybe there is something in wave forms we need to look at.  Everything from magnetism, to light spectrums, to sound has a measureable wave form.  Tesla spoke about other energy systems he was envisioning, and I am way out on a limb here, but what if his energies have wave forms we have yet to discover?

Am just asking.

It appears to me with advances in knowledge in magnetism, atomics, light, sound, we seem to be opening larger questions.  And I am along for the ride, and hopefully can contribute.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on December 28, 2010, 09:38:50 PM
Steady everyone,
                       This is a subject that has baffeled societies and communities for ever.  From the U.S.E. deffinition "my favorite" to COP>1 ... and so on

As things are nearly all stated as semantics and understanding the Statement of "Nicola" Tesla; Attaching the harness to the energy of the universe.

I am personally working with Bob Boyce who has built Racing boats run on ESPN with "HOD' hydrogen on demand.
I will be building the cells this comming year. I will need many of the components offered in this thread; ie. timming adjust circuits and integrating software like the ardino thing someone mentioned within this thread.
I am also going to need an alternator or a DC Generator to give me in excess of 8400 watts. There are many very special people here I truely appreciate the intentions of everyone on this thread.  This will give me in the neiborhood of between 1 to 3 CFM hydroxy gas.
plain and simple I want to run my big 350 CID engine from this cell.

I have reciently been challenged by a very successful arrogant auto specialist to put up or shut up! I choose to put my money where my mouth is. He insulted me to the Nth degree N machine. So all of this studying I have been doing for the last six years "on this subject should not go in vein".

I left this forum like you want to now and did not return for over a year over irratative coments and ugly thoughts of whatever. it just was not worth loosing the time. Please I emplore you as said before. stay each of us are here to learn and seek the wisdom and technics of others..

Leave the idiosincracies at the door whenever possible.

Pray for my wife, her health is poor and I have a lot of work to do to make all this happen this year.

Zane
h2ocommuter.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 28, 2010, 10:19:43 PM
"I am also going to need an alternator or a DC Generator to give me in excess of 8400 watts. There are many very special people here I truely appreciate the intentions of everyone on this thread.  This will give me in the neiborhood of between 1 to 3 CFM hydroxy gas.
plain and simple I want to run my big 350 CID engine from this cell."

8.4KW brute force cracking is about COP 3 will give you about 25KW nett at the wheels. Its not enough to drive it with any power at your gas pedal for a big RV type truck but will certainly start and run without gasoline. With gasoline this is a MASSIVE contribution.  I would expect to see +60MPG even on the worse trucks that typical only do 8-14 mpg.  Using 3 phase resonance systems if your working with Bob you already know you can get COP 6-10. If you manage 10 then you got 84KW on the wheels which is about the power of  small car and will run 100% on water only. For your truck it will only need a "sniff" of gasoline to make up the extra power on acceleration and fast highway driving.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: jibbguy on December 29, 2010, 02:28:19 AM
Mr. Banki,
Thanks for the great information. MANY here appreciate it and your work.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 03:06:13 AM
this idea was always going to work the problem has always been making enogth gas on demand
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mdlarouche on December 29, 2010, 04:13:44 AM
If this fuel cell makes 5 - 6 liters per minute you got to wonder. If the motor was 125 cc which might be close but I'm just guessing on that number, then do the math 125cc x 250 rpm(just another guess) = 31250 cc... divide by a thousand to get liters...31.250.

I know there is something a little more complex here than just these simple volumes. When HHO is burned it unites the oxygen and hydrogen to create water and then the heat from the reaction instantly boils the water and the resultant expansion of water to a gas is what turns the whole thing... and yes the force of the flame propagation and the heat not used to boil the water continues to add additional effect to the reciprocating assembly and it would take pages of description and calculations to put the whole picture in place but I guess the main point is this.... the volume needed to fill the cylinder prior to combustion is nearly six times what the numbers above tell us is needed.

I'd like to think this is not faked somehow but like others have said... better descriptions are needed along with some examination by reputable sources before I will give it creedence.

Keep working though everyone...I'm hoping someone will finally put the proof out in a manner that cannot be disproved or argued against.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 04:14:19 AM
ou isent the point the point is we are using somthing that falls from the sky and costs nothing per gallon over a generator that uses a fuel that costs £5 a gallon if this gen dose give him 400watt and all he adds is water something that as free as long as you payback what it cost to build with run time then thats ou in my eyes
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 04:18:49 AM
i have tried this my self with a 50cc 2 stroke engine and could never get enoth gas to run maybe 2 stroke engine is the wrong way to go or i need to change the timeing but when an engine is run from pre bottle hadragen it ran with no modifications so i dont think timeing is the problem
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mdlarouche on December 29, 2010, 05:11:31 AM
Timing shouldn't matter... at least when you are talking about advanced timing and that sort of thing. Advanced timing as it pertains to gasoline engines is because of it's octane rating. I don't recall the rating of gasoline in particular but hydrogen has an octane rating of 130 which is the highest of all fuels. It will not cause the common "knocking" that is associated with other fuels if they aren't manged with their timing to prevent this condition. The mechanical timing on the other hand should be set to bottom top dead center. If the engine is new and assembled that is the way it would be set... If you're assembling an engine that has been disassembled it simply means to have the piston at the top of the cylinder during the compression cycle when the valves are closed and with the rotations of the crankshaft so that the piston has just begun to move in the downward direction. This is the point where the spark plug fires... pushing the piston down and finishing off with the next... exhaust stroke

As for the issue of two stroke vs. four stroke... a two stoke needs to be lubricated by oil carried in the fuel mixture or it will seize up and except for maybe a little experimentation... it shouldn't be used long term because it will ultimately fail. You might be able to go to the extra length of using a two stroke with an oil injection system like they use in some motocross motorcycles but it would be to the detriment of still polluting the air.

As for something else I read in another thread... to clear things up a little, hydrogen does not produce any hyrocarbons but does in some circumstances produce nitrides.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on December 29, 2010, 05:22:45 AM
You need power to start the process and a cell which can handle at least 1kw. This rules out 95% of the shabby DIY builds made from SS scraps.

1Kw at 13.2 volts = 75 amps! Throwing caution to the wind the cell has got to manage at least 50 amps to get enough power into the engine to run it. So if you got 4 plates hanging off a coat hanger inside a cookie jar,  using Bi Carb as electrolite and pushing 3-5 amps from a flat car battery then no you havent got a chance in hell.

 AND the timing changes,  4 stroke skip spark is VITAL. Inlet valve already open 2 degrees when crank TDC if you just advance ignition = BAANGGGGGGGGG! You just found out your bubbler doesnt work too  good:)

Oh and timing does matter ..a lot. Why do you think they went to all that trouble modifying it and using plastic cogs?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mdlarouche on December 29, 2010, 05:37:02 AM
For every action there is a an equal and opposite reaction!

My personal thought is that for every action there could be any number of reactions and those combined reactions are the net energy that comprises the universe. That energy does two things.

1. If uncontrolled... radiates out from its center point in all directions, or in some cases in a linear manner

2. if properly confined and directed to channel as much of the energy in a manner that allows work to be done.

We burn gasoline in an engine where it is confined and released in a manner that allows us to do work. The heat on the other hand... much of it is lost parasitically, as is vibration and sound.

The heat, the expansion of burned gasses, the vibrations, the sound are the reactions that are derived from burning a fuel and each in their own is not an equal reaction to the total energy released but when comprised as a whole they are the sum of the total energy potential from the initial action.

The key to energy sustainability lies in harnessing all the reactions in a more complete system or by lessening the energies in some reactions so that other reactions may be augmented.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 01:16:56 PM
You need power to start the process and a cell which can handle at least 1kw. This rules out 95% of the shabby DIY builds made from SS scraps.

1Kw at 13.2 volts = 75 amps! Throwing caution to the wind the cell has got to manage at least 50 amps to get enough power into the engine to run it. So if you got 4 plates hanging off a coat hanger inside a cookie jar,  using Bi Carb as electrolite and pushing 3-5 amps from a flat car battery then no you havent got a chance in hell.

 AND the timing changes,  4 stroke skip spark is VITAL. Inlet valve already open 2 degrees when crank TDC if you just advance ignition = BAANGGGGGGGGG! You just found out your bubbler doesnt work too  good:)

Oh and timing does matter ..a lot. Why do you think they went to all that trouble modifying it and using plastic cogs?
sorry but at the point of ignition no valve should be open and they always fire just after tdc if not then they is a chance the engine could be kicked into reverse
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 01:18:44 PM
Timing shouldn't matter... at least when you are talking about advanced timing and that sort of thing. Advanced timing as it pertains to gasoline engines is because of it's octane rating. I don't recall the rating of gasoline in particular but hydrogen has an octane rating of 130 which is the highest of all fuels. It will not cause the common "knocking" that is associated with other fuels if they aren't manged with their timing to prevent this condition. The mechanical timing on the other hand should be set to bottom top dead center. If the engine is new and assembled that is the way it would be set... If you're assembling an engine that has been disassembled it simply means to have the piston at the top of the cylinder during the compression cycle when the valves are closed and with the rotations of the crankshaft so that the piston has just begun to move in the downward direction. This is the point where the spark plug fires... pushing the piston down and finishing off with the next... exhaust stroke

As for the issue of two stroke vs. four stroke... a two stoke needs to be lubricated by oil carried in the fuel mixture or it will seize up and except for maybe a little experimentation... it shouldn't be used long term because it will ultimately fail. You might be able to go to the extra length of using a two stroke with an oil injection system like they use in some motocross motorcycles but it would be to the detriment of still polluting the air.

As for something else I read in another thread... to clear things up a little, hydrogen does not produce any hyrocarbons but does in some circumstances produce nitrides.

i feel the main problem is with a 2 stroke is yes the oil system but also the fact the half of the fule air pixture goes out the exuast befor compresion has ethern started
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 01:23:58 PM
my unit was a stainless steel reacing tank
the outside of the tank was the anode
the inside had 40 plates in total the cathode
i thoght this would work best as i wonted more hydrogen than oxygen
i feel my main problem was the wrong engine
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mdlarouche on December 29, 2010, 02:21:24 PM

i feel the main problem is with a 2 stroke is yes the oil system but also the fact the half of the fule air pixture goes out the exuast befor compresion has ethern started

You are correct! In the case of a two stroke engine the cylinder has ports cut out of it. I haven't worked on a two stroke in more than thirty years but if I remember correctly both ports at some point in time are open so yes you kind of get a fuel mixture that wants to go right out the exhaust.. the path of least resistance. I suppose that the weight and density of the gas mixture as compared to the HHO is why there isn't a real problem with gasoline... other than the pure inefficiency of the system!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 02:25:48 PM
You are correct! In the case of a two stroke engine the cylinder has ports cut out of it. I haven't worked on a two stroke in more than thirty years but if I remember correctly both ports at some point in time are open so yes you kind of get a fuel mixture that wants to go right out the exhaust.. the path of least resistance. I suppose that the weight and density of the gas mixture as compared to the HHO is why there isn't a real problem with gasoline... other than the pure inefficiency of the system!

the best engine for this would be the Wankel engine in a smaller scale a normal 4 stroke has to many losses maybe a boxket style engine might work better
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mdlarouche on December 29, 2010, 02:33:02 PM
sorry but at the point of ignition no valve should be open and they always fire just after tdc if not then they is a chance the engine could be kicked into reverse

You are right that all the valves must be closed at the point of ignition. A note to those wanting to experiment with timing... if your budget allows get one of them new fangled engines with variable valve timing. The newest generation of these engines is all computer controlled so you can really play with any scenario you'd like.

As for kicking an engine in reverse that wouldn't likely happen. I suppose if it were to fire accidently before top dead center it could begin rotation in the wrong direction but the remainder of the cycles would not continue because all the timings would be off. You'd more than likely suffer from a catastrophic failure before it would start running completely backwards.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 02:36:02 PM
You are right that all the valves must be closed at the point of ignition. A note to those wanting to experiment with timing... if your budget allows get one of them new fangled engines with variable valve timing. The newest generation of these engines is all computer controlled so you can really play with any scenario you'd like.

As for kicking an engine in reverse that wouldn't likely happen. I suppose if it were to fire accidently before top dead center it could begin rotation in the wrong direction but the remainder of the cycles would not continue because all the timings would be off. You'd more than likely suffer from a catastrophic failure before it would start running completely backwards.
you your are right it would only run backwards until moment is lost i wouldent say anything would be damaged maybe a flame out of the carb but other then that not alot
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mdlarouche on December 29, 2010, 02:36:06 PM
You are right that all the valves must be closed at the point of ignition. A note to those wanting to experiment with timing... if your budget allows get one of them new fangled engines with variable valve timing. The newest generation of these engines is all computer controlled so you can really play with any scenario you'd like.

As for kicking an engine in reverse that wouldn't likely happen. I suppose if it were to fire accidently before top dead center it could begin rotation in the wrong direction but the remainder of the cycles would not continue because all the timings would be off. You'd more than likely suffer from a catastrophic failure before it would start running completely backwards.

I guess I should correct myself here... what I said above I was thinking in regards to a four stroke... a two stroke engine will in fact run backwards with no problem at all if ignition is given at the correct time.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 02:39:34 PM
I guess I should correct myself here... what I said above I was thinking in regards to a stroke... a two stroke engine will in fact run backwards with no problem at all if ignition is given at the correct time.

 
lol that had sliped by me a 4 stroke wouldent but a 2 stroke in sence would yes
but we wont an effecent engine and well that counts a normal 4 stroke and 2 stroke out maybe a boxer engine or wankel may work best who knows a jet engine my also work but be way to dmn noisy
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 02:44:41 PM
some one said delaying the spark dosent work that just bs
what you think  moveing the mag or pick up point of the ignition system dose
you are infact dealying the spark by moveing the points etc
so sorm sort of circuit to do this would work just as well
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mdlarouche on December 29, 2010, 03:20:06 PM
some one said delaying the spark dosent work that just bs
what you think  moveing the mag or pick up point of the ignition system dose
you are infact dealying the spark by moveing the points etc
so sorm sort of circuit to do this would work just as well

I'm not sure weather that is in relation to a comment I posted but I thought I'll add this. The reason that you have the ability to change the electronic timing on an engine is to prevent engine knock... it has to do with the octane of gasoline. If the compression ratio is too high you get knock. If you set the spark to a point in the timing when full compression has not been reached then knock is eliminated because by the time that point is reached some of the fuel has been burned and some heat has been released to create better conditions for the remainder of the fuel mixture to burn more efficiently. 

Hydrogen of all fuels has the highest octane rating and is immune to causing engine knock so it is really unnecessary.  If there is any other reason for changing the timing in this manner... I don't see it but hey... I don't know everything. My dad is a mechanic of fifty years so I have learned from one of the best!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 03:22:29 PM
I'm not sure weather that is in relation to a comment I posted but I thought I'll add this. The reason that you have the ability to change the electronic timing on an engine is to prevent engine knock... it has to do with the octane of gasoline. If the compression ratio is too high you get knock. If you set the spark to a point in the timing when full compression has not been reached then knock is eliminated because by the time that point is reached some of the fuel has been burned and some heat has been released to create better conditions for the remainder of the fuel mixture to burn more efficiently. 

Hydrogen of all fuels has the highest octane rating and is immune to causing engine knock so it is really unnecessary.  If there is any other reason for changing the timing in this manner... I don't see it but hey... I don't know everything. My dad is a mechanic of fifty years so I have learned from one of the best!
yeah same for my father but i always thoght if it nocked you ajusted further past tdc been awhile since i done this so can not remeber exactly
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mdlarouche on December 29, 2010, 03:35:18 PM
yeah same for my father but i always thoght if it nocked you ajusted further past tdc been awhile since i done this so can not remeber exactly

Actually I think you are right on that one...after tdc for knock and if you go before tdc it is simply because when you installed your rotor you might have been off a tooth. It would still run but would idle roughly. The only other situation where I think the electronic timing would come in play is on an engine  that was built using lean burn technology... Chrysler was big on this in the eighties.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 03:39:06 PM
Actually I think you are right on that one...after tdc for knock and if you go before tdc it is simply because when you installed your rotor you might have been off a tooth. It would still run but would idle roughly. The only other situation where I think the electronic timing would come in play is on an engine  that was built using lean burn technology... Chrysler was big on this in the eighties.

it also all depends on the rpm the engine is at as the rpm changed so dose the point of ignition and the length of combustion man i forgot how complercated tuning engines was
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 03:41:04 PM
Actually I think you are right on that one...after tdc for knock and if you go before tdc it is simply because when you installed your rotor you might have been off a tooth. It would still run but would idle roughly. The only other situation where I think the electronic timing would come in play is on an engine  that was built using lean burn technology... Chrysler was big on this in the eighties.

or an engine that has knock detection
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 03:42:56 PM
tuning a geny is prob easyer then a car engine as a geny engine does not raise and fall in revs all the time i guess the best way to keep the engine stable would be to have a battery charge on it charging batterys then run eveything from inverters etc
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: altrez on December 29, 2010, 06:23:51 PM
I am digging the concept. Is there perhaps a detailed parts list with suppliers available somewhere?

-Altrez
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on December 29, 2010, 07:08:17 PM
Oh well
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Low-Q on December 29, 2010, 08:06:36 PM
I'm not sure weather that is in relation to a comment I posted but I thought I'll add this. The reason that you have the ability to change the electronic timing on an engine is to prevent engine knock... it has to do with the octane of gasoline. If the compression ratio is too high you get knock. If you set the spark to a point in the timing when full compression has not been reached then knock is eliminated because by the time that point is reached some of the fuel has been burned and some heat has been released to create better conditions for the remainder of the fuel mixture to burn more efficiently. 

Hydrogen of all fuels has the highest octane rating and is immune to causing engine knock so it is really unnecessary.  If there is any other reason for changing the timing in this manner... I don't see it but hey... I don't know everything. My dad is a mechanic of fifty years so I have learned from one of the best!
I thought that hydrogen had the lowest octane (?) It burns very fast. The higher the octane are, the slower the gasoline burns, but provides more energy than a lower octane gasoline. Maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on December 29, 2010, 08:15:46 PM

suit yourself
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 29, 2010, 08:35:24 PM
Detonation, knocking, pinging are all simptions of preignition....
meaning the fuel is being ignighted by compression not the spark plug timing.

all diesels are caused to run by combustion not spark. except for the low compression diesels that are started only by glowplugs.

diesel fuel is a combustion fuel,
Gas is an ignition fuel.

overlaping of these system of behavior does happen.. from time to time...  Higher ocation will not as easily pingi or detonate before ignition in gas engines.

Jet engines are combustion fuel users.... there fuel is much like corosene and diesel


i would like to see the information about hydrogen as an innert, unflamable gas having 130 octain???/

On the other hand: As the quality of "hydroxy" gas being produced are improved the potency of the explosion goes higher to a large degree. so.......? how is a set octain of 130 the associated value .

please explain.

Zane
incorrect zane. detonation, knocking and pinging are the same thing, and none of them are symptoms of pre-ignition. all of them basically being an off time combustion of the air/fuel mixture. pre-ignition is something else entirely, it is when the air/fuel mixture ignites before the spark plug arcs. this can be effected many ways. for example, a spark plug running too hot, hot spots in the combustion chamber, etc. pre-ignition is also known as 'run-on' or 'dieseling'.

@ anyone interested in HHO powered ICE's... learn how an ICE works on the fuel it was designed for before you go changing the fuel and your chances of success will increase exponentially.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on December 29, 2010, 09:20:41 PM

Please refrain
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 29, 2010, 09:30:43 PM
How funny, you are incorragible.

Off time combustion! I say! 

Again simple semantics.

oh please lead by example.  you have got the posts to prove you could be a leader.

Don' try to act like you're saying anything useful. that causes you to look like an idiot.
it's not semantics... you were/are wrong. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking
then see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking#Pre-ignition

detonation (aka knocking or pinging) is symptomatic of the peak of the combustion process no longer occurring at the optimum moment . run-on or dieseling is symptomatic of pre-ignition. detonation and pre-ignition are two different phenomena.

correcting your errors is useful to others who may be misguided by you... try reading the first paragraph of the first wiki link i posted. pay close attention to the last sentence...  ::)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: altrez on December 29, 2010, 11:17:10 PM
indeed WilbyInebriated  is correct in this. I might be mistaken but that's how I understand it.

-Altrez
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 30, 2010, 04:57:37 AM
@Oliver,
many thanks for your reply.
You have my curiosity as i understand the H and The O but where is the N comming from.
Kind Regards
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: madwizard777 on December 30, 2010, 07:36:34 AM
If this is the real deal 2011 will indeed be a great year.  :) We know from S. Meyer's work that it is possible. I wish you guys all the best!!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: exnihiloest on December 30, 2010, 04:21:51 PM
The wrong use of established knowledge as if it were a religion is what  bothers the most
...

This wrong use is not that from scientists but from believers in science who do not not understand science. They are several here. They want to prove OU using (erroneously) some laws of physics!   :D

Religion, faith and superstitions are always based on ignorance. It is the knowledge that enlightens the minds but only the mind of those who are studying, working and making the effort to understand.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2010, 04:59:32 PM
This wrong use is not that from scientists but from believers in science who do not not understand science. They are several here. They want to prove OU using (erroneously) some laws of physics!   :D

Religion, faith and superstitions are always based on ignorance. It is the knowledge that enlightens the minds but only the mind of those who are studying, working and making the effort to understand.

Don't spam the thread.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ray8abit on December 30, 2010, 05:04:51 PM
If using distilled water, would not contamination be contained.  The only way to get N would be the chemical one adds to water?  It does not appear to me to be enough in the atmosphere to create any meaningful amount.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2010, 05:05:11 PM
The wrong use of established knowledge as if it were a religion is what  bothers the most ...

Indeed, that's the biigest problem. Science is desperately manipulated to drift away from OU (which is inherent in it) because of very well known reasons. It is our mission to change that situation..
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 30, 2010, 08:20:27 PM
@everyone
I find it astonishing that we had one of the Anton persons posting twice here and no one responded or asked questions. many of you were so caught up in debating semantics, and in somecases commenting in areas where you have had no practicle experience.
You wonder why these people do not bother with these threads..go read back the last few pages around the time Oliver responded about the video
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2010, 09:38:55 PM
@everyone
I find it astonishing that we had one of the Anton persons posting twice here and no one responded or asked questions. many of you were so caught up in debating semantics, and in somecases commenting in areas where you have had no practicle experience.
You wonder why these people do not bother with these threads..go read back the last few pages around the time Oliver responded about the video
Mark

Well, did you ask him if he'd allow you to analyze the exhaust gases?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on December 30, 2010, 09:57:39 PM
@ominbus
yes I did i sent a private message on that matter.
Kind Regards
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2010, 11:22:27 PM
@ominbus
yes I did i sent a private message on that matter.
Kind Regards
Mark

The outcome would be pretty interesting if they agree to the test. Please do keep us posted here.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: exnihiloest on December 31, 2010, 03:30:40 PM
Don't spam the thread.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/478472/projection

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on December 31, 2010, 04:47:05 PM
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/478472/projection

spam
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on December 31, 2010, 04:52:59 PM
Mark
Yes quite true we have the Anton crew posting here!

And certain peeps seem more interested in who has the bigger post,or the bigger mouth,Or Knows the most  Etc .....................................

Meanwhile I do have a thread running at Energetic on this
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7023-merry-o-u-christmas-germany.html

Perhaps the men from Germany can share there also
{well........... they have been already ,so have you Mark]

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: A1X on January 01, 2011, 05:05:30 PM
Plates are series capacitor & R (load ) within LC tuned to AC powersource,
placed across a diode bridge the plates receive doble frequency half sinewave DC stream
creating water spliting capactrode at an optimal resonant semy resonant tuned state ...

EVGRAY POST 

ARKRESEARCH

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Free Energy <harti@harti.com> wrote:
> You have just been sent a personal message by h2ocommuter on Free Energy.

> hi ark,
> I find your statement about the capacitance of the hydroxy cell is in coincidance with Bob Boyces and kevin west. Stanley meyer. etc.
>
> my question will be examining this relationship this comming year.
>
> i want to take the time now to make a relationship with you so when i get to the point I need to test your theories and impliment the best electrical driving system into my cells i will have a fully rounded position and understanding of the mastery.
>
> dzndlideas@aol.com
>
> Zane
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 01, 2011, 06:07:31 PM
A1X
Sir ,
This water splitting capatrode comment?Are you ,whomever,referring to what you feel is going on in the Anton cell?
Quote:

Plates are series capacitor & R (load ) within LC tuned to AC powersource,
placed across a diode bridge the plates receive doble frequency half sinewave DC stream
creating water spliting capactrode at an optimal resonant semy resonant tuned state ...
--------------
Or is this something else?

Pleaes explain a bit more,

Thanks

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on January 01, 2011, 10:41:24 PM
Hi, Ramses!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 01, 2011, 11:47:30 PM
Sup Spin?

Happy new year Bud!
Chet
Responce to below
NO :'(
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on January 01, 2011, 11:49:34 PM
O, hey Ramsy, your mentor went out of control...
Can you do something about?
Thanks!

P.S:
Nice edit...

Happy New Year to you, too!
And, I didn't expect that you can do something about OmniBot's programming.... :P :-\ :-[
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on January 02, 2011, 05:20:46 AM
;D well here comes the heavy fire ....

To obtain free energy is not the problem the problem is a psycological social political one .

First  you can obtain free energy using solar aeolic systems along energy savings technlogy as sample RV Rotoverter , Pantones GEET in unlooped mode for fuel savings and the such .

HHO

I made a revelation long ago, using hydrogen generation consisting of resonant series plates tuned to as if they were a capacitor within a tuned LC system that is to tune the plates under a pulsing DC stream fed from a diode bridge placed in series with resonat LC , energy source (reactive) or RF elf frequency source .


To start the secret is to use 316L stainless steel plates or wire spirals counterwinded facing each other , the idea of tuning to resonance is to obtain the reactive power as to effectively split water to HHO using the overunity  component of such.
now we go back to the problem (next post)

Sorry Arkresearch,
the private mail thing did not work. maybe you have more information about this circuit you speak of here.

For instance; can you spell out what is the next step when you know the capacitance of your cell? or how do you know that your cell is in resonance?
How do you measure this reactive power?
I do not understand this statement: energy source (reactive) or RF elf frequency source .
energy sourse (reactive)?, RF; "Radio Frequency", and elf; "Extremely Low Frequency", all seem to be different frequencies that resonance can be accomplished. if this is true are you stating that your cell is or must be tuned to all three resonance values at the same time?


I am not near as savvy electrical engineer as I am a machanic.
About the subject of preignition; I am fully confident about my position contrary to the arguement about my coment. This is not the first time I have had this arguement.
This arguement is as old as the hills and I will maintain my positions irreguardless of what wiki states or however you wish to argue your point and belittle me or others.
This being said, I am not perfect and have failed in my understandings and so called knowlege. So this is stated IMHO Bodatiously!

I do not come here to debate any position or validity of any arguement.
I come here to share when I believe I have some procured understanding of subject matter and wish to share, or gather more understanding about a matter I am asking questions of.

I realize this is not discussing the Anton system, Thank you Helmut, I figure the information will be forthcomming as time permits.

If anyone wishes to discuss the arguement with me I will do it privatly or over the phone if possible.
It would not serve this thread to argue the finer points of an ICE or what is happening when they are malfunctioning here. There  are more disshonest mechanics in the world than there are thoes willing to eat the mistaken guesswork in actual troubleshooting. 

By the way I heard the price of gas in europe was about $7.00 a gal
and in the US in 2012 is proposed to be $5.00 a gal. we need these processes ASAP

Zane
Fresno calif.
559-904-5618








Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 03, 2011, 03:35:33 AM
Quote
By the way I heard the price of gas in europe was about $7.00 a gal
and in the US in 2012 is proposed to be $5.00 a gal. we need these processes ASAP

No we don't. I thought we did till i did my own little survey this week and far too many people are only interested in the January Sales!  Those with a bit of money left are not in the slightest bit interested in saving money using HHO on their vehicles or any other technology. They are ONLY interested in buying a new flat screen HD TV, kitchen appliances, cameras, fashion clothes and new laptops.

I spoke to a family member that puts half his take home wage back into gas. No amount of discussion will change his mind I have tried and he shrugs his shoulders and just says "oh well every one puts gas in their tanks". So i asked again so you wouldn't like to save 35% off your gas then? and he said "no not really bothered"

So this is the mindset. The majority if they still have a job have limited time to watch TV or research anything and what they do see is 20 mins of mainstream news a day and constant barrage of TV advertising for consumables for the sheep...nothing else matters.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 03, 2011, 04:21:36 AM

  Bolt,               
Very touchy subject! And one of the reasons we are here

Change...............................

                           
Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: pix on January 03, 2011, 04:43:27 AM
Because population is becoming more dumb, braiwashed by TV, behaving like herd of mentally disabled consumers driven by media. Values are no more. Only interested to fill a belly, and pleasing themselves without guessing on what cost it comes.
If you look at the population as a whole, bigger picture - it is only interested with their individual  direct needs.As long as they have food,electricity,water,TV and other toys to have comfortable life-they do not bother and are too lazy to care.
But..... lets cut some of those for a few days.Population will start to behave like animals driven by basic instinct- survive.
Somewhere I had heard the saying, it goes something like that " Distance between peace and revolution is one breakfast and two dinners".
Regards,
pix
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 03, 2011, 05:06:13 AM
Because population is becoming more dumb, braiwashed by TV, behaving like herd of mentally disabled consumers driven by media. Values are no more. Only interested to fill a belly, and pleasing themselves without guessing on what cost it comes.
If you look at the population as a whole, bigger picture - it is only interested with their individual  direct needs.As long as they have food,electricity,water,TV and other toys to have comfortable life-they do not bother and are too lazy to care.
But..... lets cut some of those for a few days.Population will start to behave like animals driven by basic instinct- survive.
Somewhere I had heard the saying, it goes something like that " Distance between peace and revolution is one breakfast and two dinners".
Regards,
pix

That's indeed the sad state of affairs but people have been conditioned deliberately to be that way by the powers that be. It is said that economy works that way better than when the population is enlightened and isn't just a herd of consumers.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 03, 2011, 05:12:42 AM
Is it good or bad then that countries such as Brazil have found ways, probably through the personal talent of their leaders, to bring millions out of poverty and therefore enhance the consumer society status quo by distancing it away from a revolution?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 03, 2011, 05:30:44 AM
Brazil knows what real depressions are they had more then their fair share. When some towns hit 50% unemployment they formed CO-OP societies and took over closed factories for no pay. They often fought and won many court battles over trespass.  Many of these business making all kinds of stuff are now locally and publicly owned and every cent goes back to the people. Everyone earns the same wage. They are also pioneers of using TIME as money and trading hours work with each other. This created thousands of jobs where people traded time for food etc.

Let it be known the government did NOTHING to help it was about people coming together and get them selves out of the shit. The real power starts with the people.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 03, 2011, 05:46:13 AM
I can't imagine that that has happened only spontaneously. Why is then Lula so popular?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on January 03, 2011, 06:54:24 AM
you guys need to go see how the rest of the world lives.
In many countries like ours we work to live..not live to work. Think about it.
Most other nations have incentive schemes for switching to alternative fuels. Brasil is an excellent example.
Unfortunately you have a democracy fuels by corporations. In most countries everyone has to vote(or they get fined)
In many others they dissalow political donations.
Any this is a conversation for another thread. We are suppose to be discussing the Anton System here
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on January 03, 2011, 01:29:58 PM

  Bolt,               
Makes me sick every time I put gas in the tank,worse at the house ,I feel like a pig when I burn Fuel,Its freakin disgusting to me. Sending that puke up into the air ,Young men dying to put money in the pockets of Scum oil Sh$&s

                           
Chet

Oh, geeez, Ramsy...

Those "Oil Sh$&s" are getting only some few percents of your gas money....

Do you people really understand how this World of ours really works?


Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Rapadura on January 03, 2011, 06:20:25 PM
Is it good or bad then that countries such as Brazil have found ways, probably through the personal talent of their leaders, to bring millions out of poverty and therefore enhance the consumer society status quo by distancing it away from a revolution?

Do you want to know what is our "secret" here in Brazil? It's simple: profitable government-owned companies. And no "free market fundamentalism". Free market has to serve society, not society has to serve the free market.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 03, 2011, 06:36:48 PM
Do you want to know what is our "secret" here in Brazil? It's simple: profitable government-owned companies. And no "free market fundamentalism". Free market has to serve society, not society has to serve the free market.

I wish we could talk more about this because I've been in Brazil (way back, in 1968 when the cruzeiro was still the currency; besides Rio, Sao Paolo and Recife, I was also in Brasilia when they were still building it) and I'm very interested in the enormous progress it has achieved since then and what really made it happen. Unfortunately, as Mark said, this is not the thread for such discussion.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on January 05, 2011, 07:27:45 AM
All,

Reading posts here in the last few days makes me think I made a mistake and ended up in a wrong thread!!

I will try to bring it back on topic!

First, a few suggestions to Oliver & Valentin:

Replace the Variac with a Phase Control circuit (see my attached circuit diagram and description).  That would also eliminate your power consuming current limiter bar!

If you don’t want to try my circuit, you could try to use a HIGH POWER DIMMER!
(However, a dimmer will NOT adjust your current automatically to compensate for load changes!)

With proper phase control, you will have negligible losses.

Also, since the “Anton cell” is a series cell electrolyzer, keep in mind that its efficiency actually INCREASES as the cell numbers increase!
(see my thesis: HHO-generator ‘closed loop’ set-up)

Some posters are critical about your use of a battery for your ignition set-up.
Ignore them!!
They don’t understand that a properly designed ignition system will use less than 10W!

Further, please IGNORE the downright STUPID cries for exhaust “analysis”, University “validation”, etc.!
No matter what you do, you will NEVER be able to convince those who “know” that what you guys have done is “impossible”!!!
So my advice is:
Instead of wasting your time and energies trying to satisfy those ‘no-hopers’, please use those valuable energies on your project!

OK.
I am somewhat surprised to find that the files I have attached to my earlier posts a few days ago have been downloaded many times!
I get the impression that there may be some interest in my work! 

Perhaps some of you would like to know how MY closed loop system will be set up!

While nothing “secret” or “fancy”, so far only a couple of people were ‘privy’ to the last closed loop details of my set-up since I choose NOT to publish them before.
(Most of the other circuit details of my ECU design have been available to all for the last 2-3 years.)

A few days ago I decided to write down and release the remaining bits of information.

To avoid making this post too long, I wrote it as a Word document.  (attached)
I have also attached some pictures of the prototype ECU and some circuit boards.
Please note that the pictures of the ECU do not show all connections to it.
Nor does it show the extra LEDs to indicate which power supply is being used at the time. [start-up (mains, inverter) or the power from the generator]
Those LEDs will be added to the control panel later.

In the next few days I am going to take some more pictures (this time of the ‘internals’ of the ECU) which will hopefully give you an idea of what is involved!

Since the Anton cell is a series cell electrolyzer, I am still on topic when I repeat my response to one of Stefan’s post:  (note the date!)


6     Hydrogen energy / Motors or Vehicles running on HHO or Hydrogen only, no gasoline / Re: HHO explosion slowing down the burn speed of HHO to get compatible with gasoline
on: April 24, 2009, 07:10:12 AM

“Hi Stefan,

It is not clear from your post if the 2.4V is across 2 series OR 2 parallel cells.
I assume you intend to run a series cell electrolyzer directly from the mains, (220VAC in Germany), full wave rectified but DO NOT filter it!

For 220V you should have 110 cells for maximum efficiency.
(you should NOT exceed 2V per cell!)
And yes, the SERIES cells arrangement is the only way to go! 

Cells operating at voltages higher than, say, 2.5V, is a waste of time and effort.
Further, current density should be no higher than 30 - 40mA per square cm
Calculate plate sizes accordingly.

Also, distance between plates should be no more than 3mm and as EVEN as possible. 
SS316L is the best material for the plates.

DO NOT  use chemicals to clean them and cross hatch them (by hand) with emery paper.
DO NOT touch by hand!  Use gloves.
(Same instructions as Bob Boyce has published repeatedly over the years.)

If all these points are observed, you WILL produce high quality hydroxy and you will only need 1 to 4% of hydroxy and 99 - 96% air.
You will have MORE THAN ENOUGH to run the engine AND have power left over!

Have fun!  You will enjoy the result!”

Best regards,
Les Banki 

Ps. Since my attachments are larger than the limits for this Forum, I need to make a couple of extra posts just for the attachments!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on January 05, 2011, 07:40:43 AM
more attachments....
I don't seem to be able to do more than 2 at the time....
It is too time consuming....!

Would some of you be able to tell me if its possible to upload ALL my files to perhaps ONE Folder here?

Thanks.
Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on January 05, 2011, 07:50:41 AM
more pictures.....
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on January 05, 2011, 08:09:03 AM
still more files....
I think that's it! (for now)

I hope all of you like them!

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on January 05, 2011, 11:15:49 AM
Hi Les.
you are a good electrical designer. Was good to catch up with you the otherday and i wish you all the best.
I do have issue with you. I was one of the no hoper's you mentioned wanting exhaust tests. There are three reasons:
1. To gain more understanding of the combustion processes. I have worked with and consulted with some very good combustion engineers.
2. To see if there were any carbon introduced into the system. Many of my friends and I who have performed tests for our own research or part of a validation process for investors this is the first test we do. Given the many scammers that have both privately and publically been exposed in the past this is the best tell tale sign of foul play. However I suspect in this case ammonia may have been introduced...go read Oliver's reply. I have not a problem with this
A friend of mine in the next week is testing another self runner claim...first thing he packed was a exhaust gas testing unit.
3. There is often a considerable amount of money at stake from investors for proof of concept. This is help in escrow. The people who have this money insist on using good engineers and ...in the case o HHO testing exhaust gas analysis
Kind Regards
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: albert on January 05, 2011, 11:41:15 AM
Everyone seems to be harping on the idea of an exhaust test. There will be carbons in it from the oil needed for the four stroke engine...so what does this prove?

I think it is stupid to suppose that the guys want to cheat with their video. That makes no sense at all to me. An investor will want foolproof facts anyway- no one will put any money into such an adventure on the proof of a shaky video.
'No, the fellas DID it and it shows that something unusual is going on either in the cell or in the combustion chamber of the engine.
The effort should go into researching WHY this thing runs itself . To me it is proven that it does , Oliver and Valentin are not the only ones who have achieved this.

My two cents
Albert

Happy new Year to everyone.
-10 degrees here in Southern Germany. We could need this invention, really...
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on January 05, 2011, 11:49:52 AM
Hi Albert..+30c here and raining.
You are right some carbons will show up and small amounts are allowed for. Remeber the water motorcycle scam in NZ a few years ago...he was busted by the exhaust gas tests...and I know of many others that because of NDA agreements you will never know about. For every device that reaches the forum there are many more that do not.
I applaud the Anton people.....but read what he has said. They are not making the claims but others are on their behalf. They are doing good research and work...but have they claimed a self runner...not publically. Dioes it self run for some time...maybe. However even if they did put some carbon or amonia in it is still good work they are doing.
I am not aware of anyone else who has achieved a self runner that can be replicated or demonstarted. I am always happy to be educated.
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: gyulasun on January 05, 2011, 12:41:34 PM
....

Ps. Since my attachments are larger than the limits for this Forum, I need to make a couple of extra posts just for the attachments!


Hi Les,

There is file Upload / Download section on this forum, in the left hand side, under the Menu column. Here is too: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads 

and you find upload possibility of max 5MB file at a time by clicking an appropiate title under the 'Category Name'.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 05, 2011, 02:43:46 PM
Les,
Thank you for the redirect to the "topic"!

Many of us here crave your contributions!!

@Albert
AMEN!!
See also ,

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7023-merry-o-u-christmas-germany.html#post124562

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on January 06, 2011, 06:33:41 AM
Hi Les,
        I am wanting to make numerous on the road tests using some type of timing controller that I have been imagining; and just look low and behold your controle panel has an adjustable timing controle just I have imagined only better!

Am I dreaming?

Your a master!

I am glad you have been encouraged with the participation on this thread. you make us little guys humble and very honored to stand beside you!

I am also getting a good feeling about this thread as well.

With help like you are offfering maybe someday I will live up to my handle; "h2ocommuter".
Zane

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 07, 2011, 12:35:29 AM
Thread is 18 pages now and no sign of replications yet! Has anyone gone out and bought a Chinese gentset only cost about 150 bucks and got this working?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 07, 2011, 02:46:10 AM
bolt
As Oliver, Helmut,Albert and several others have said
they have replications in Germany,they also have "Teams" working on making electricity right out of the cell.Plus other unexplained techniques for harvesting energy without running it thru an engine.

Chet



Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 02:48:11 AM
bolt
As Oliver, Helmut,Albert and several others have said
they have replications in Germany,they also have "Teams" working on making electricity right out of the cell.Plus other unexplained techniques for harvesting energy without running it thru an engine.

Chet

And with no analysis of the exhaust gases, right?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2011, 03:05:37 AM
And with no analysis of the exhaust gases, right?

Do you even bother to read the post before posting an irrelevant comment?

Note: "harvesting energy without running it thru an engine."
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 07, 2011, 03:08:06 AM
Albert
Quote:
Everyone seems to be harping on the idea of an exhaust test. There will be carbons in it from the oil needed for the four stroke engine...so what does this prove?

I think it is stupid to suppose that the guys want to cheat with their video. That makes no sense at all to me. An investor will want foolproof facts anyway- no one will put any money into such an adventure on the proof of a shaky video.
'No, the fellas DID it and it shows that something unusual is going on either in the cell or in the combustion chamber of the engine.
The effort should go into researching WHY this thing runs itself . To me it is proven that it does , Oliver and Valentin are not the only ones who have achieved this.

My two cents
Albert
----------------------------------
Omni,
One thing that is different about this "Anton"Situation ,Is everytime we here from these fellows They are making progress and also working on all kinds of ways besides an ICE [internal combustion Engine] to harvest power from these cells
This has legs its not a "MYLO"
or a Hoax,Like bolt says we should buy a chincy genset and try it ourselves

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MasterPlaster on January 07, 2011, 03:08:50 AM
And with no analysis of the exhaust gases, right?

I guess you are implying that that the demo was a hoax ok I could say the demo was based around a trolly with a generator sitting on it and a little battery stuck under neath. The battery turned a micky mouse electric motor on the top and powering the light bulb. The generator was not running. The sound was added later to make the hoax look more plausable. So as you see, the exhaust gasses can not be analyzed as they don't exist!

Until such time that sufficient information becomes available
to enable others to replicate then just think of this as an early April fools joke.

In the mean time it would nice if trolls refrain.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 03:32:02 AM
I guess you are implying that that the demo was a hoax ok I could say the demo was based around a trolly with a generator sitting on it and a little battery stuck under neath. The battery turned a micky mouse electric motor on the top and powering the light bulb. The generator was not running. The sound was added later to make the hoax look more plausable. So as you see, the exhaust gasses can not be analyzed as they don't exist!

Until such time that sufficient information becomes available
to enable others to replicate then just think of this as an early April fools joke.

In the mean time it would nice if trolls refrain.

Who's the troll? The one who believes uncritically anything he's told or the one who says the evidence is insufficient to claim self-sustaining run. The former is the troll.

I'm not saying it's a hoax. All I'm saying is that there is not enough evidence to claim self-sustaining run. However, since by default anyone who is seeking money on claims not-fully sustained without making it clear to the investors is a fraud. If these guys are are approaching investors, claiming that they have achieved self-sustaining run of the device then they are fraudulent and, yes, it's a hoax then.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on January 07, 2011, 03:35:37 AM
Hi Les.
you are a good electrical designer. Was good to catch up with you the otherday and i wish you all the best.
I do have issue with you. I was one of the no hoper's you mentioned wanting exhaust tests. There are three reasons:
1. To gain more understanding of the combustion processes. I have worked with and consulted with some very good combustion engineers.
2. To see if there were any carbon introduced into the system. Many of my friends and I who have performed tests for our own research or part of a validation process for investors this is the first test we do. Given the many scammers that have both privately and publically been exposed in the past this is the best tell tale sign of foul play. However I suspect in this case ammonia may have been introduced...go read Oliver's reply. I have not a problem with this
A friend of mine in the next week is testing another self runner claim...first thing he packed was a exhaust gas testing unit.
3. There is often a considerable amount of money at stake from investors for proof of concept. This is help in escrow. The people who have this money insist on using good engineers and ...in the case o HHO testing exhaust gas analysis
Kind Regards
Mark

Mark,

You are obviously mistaking me for someone else!
I never had ANY kind of communication with you in the past.
Therefore, even your compliment “ you are a good electrical designer” may apply to someone else!
(Btw, FYI, my technical skills are not limited to electronics.  I also have a reasonably well equipped machine shop and with the machines I have I am able to produce parts with a quality second to none!)

There was/is no need to explain your “reasons” for insisting on exhaust analysis and/or so-called ‘validation’.
I have heard them all before, MANY times!  (from others)

I will use this opportunity to KNOCK OUT, once and for all, present and future arguments (I know they will still be coming!) about “investors” and the “need” to convince them!!

I have done this verbally several times during my monthly ‘lectures’ (which went on for many years, on several subjects, including free energy & water fuel in particular!) but this is the FIRST TIME I put it in writing!  (It’s about time!)

OK.  Here we go:

So you have a WORKING prototype of a device you wish to make & sell.
Just ONE!  The one which you have managed to finance out of your own pocket!

Perhaps you already know a few people who would be interested to BUY such a device.
(Note I said BUY, NOT “invest”!)

INVITE them to an obligation free demonstration!

Let them test the device any which way they wish to convince themselves that it performs EXACTLY as you said it would!

Now some of them (ALL of them in the case of a free energy device!) want to buy one!
Then you tell them:
Sorry guys, I don’t have the money to make them BUT if all of you who are interested are willing to pay, say, 50% DEPOSIT and when they are DELIVERED (in a few weeks/months, or whatever time is needed to produce them), you pay me the balance!

Say you have produced 10 units this way which are now paid in full.
You now have the money to invest in the next batch, say 20.
And so on….
Before you know it, you will have a hard time keeping up with demand and the money is rolling in!
Perhaps you want to employ people or sub-contract all the work.
Businesses will flourish all around you!

Before any of you start objecting, you should know that this has been done by MANY, including ME.
So please don’t waste your time telling me that it cannot be done!
I never accepted a single “investment” dollar in my life!
Nor have I ever borrowed a single dollar from anyone.  Not even a bank. 
And I am PROUD of it!

To take this issue a little further:
Do ANY of you honestly believe that those satisfied customers are the slightest bit interested in some professor’s opinion at such and such University???
Or require an explanation on how that device works?
Let me tell you (from personal experience), they don’t give a SHIT!
All they wanted (and got it) was/is a WORKING device!! 
End of story and end of argument!

If someone out of ‘scientific curiosity’ wants to run some highly technical tests,
by all means, DO IT!
As I am NOT a ‘scientist’, I too would be interested in the results of such tests!

Personally, since I am NOT out to convince anyone about anything, (even if it may look that way occasionally), I seriously doubt that I will ever produce a video like Oliver & Valentin did.

If you understood my posts you already know why.
However, I will do whatever I can to try to help those who genuinely want to make their own systems and also those who have plans to make & sell them to those who don’t have the equipment and/or skills.  (which is probably more than 99.9% of the population!)

Albert & Chet,
Thank you for your support.  It makes it all worthwhile!

Gyula,

Thanks for your advise. 
I know about the Upload/Download section and its limits.
(I don’t know about others but I find it hard to navigate that section to find what I am looking for!)
Something like the personal Project Folders offered in ‘oupower.com’ Forum would be ideal!

Zane (h2ocommuter),

I am very pleased that you already found something useful in the files I have attached so far.  (more to come)
If you intend to use the timer you see on the ECU control panel, you need the circuit diagram and you MUST read my “Timer & timer interphase” document/circuit description!
(Mainly because after the modifications the operating instructions differ form the original instructions!  This file also contains information like model number and where you can buy it from.)

Further, you also need detailed instructions on HOW to modify that timer.
Since that is hard to explain in words only, I will take some step-by-step pictures of how the modifications are carried out.
Should you wish to make a pcb for the timer interphase circuit, you also need the pcb file.
(all files attached)
Have fun!

Best regards to all,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 03:53:00 AM
@Les Banki,

I'm not telling you this cannot be done but I'm telling you this should not be done. Why? Because these buyers or investors or whoever you're scamming jave to take your word that "it works". It doesn't even matter whether or not you upurself know exactly what "it works" means, judging from your post. Because, as any scammer would do, you're skipping over the important details proving that "it works" and are jumpin right into the customer part of the story. It doesn't matter that you may have convinced some hillbillies that "it works". That's what scammers do, convince the unsuspected about the qualities of their fake product. And the first thing they say is, believe me, believe your unqualified judgement as a customer and don't listen to the knowledgeable professors. They know nothing. You know more than they do because it's your money you're spending. Wrong. And I don't even need to explain why that's wrong. You should know better if you claim to be an honest businessman.

Let me make it perfectly clear to you. You have shown no evidence that the device you're selling works as an OU machine. That machine of yours will not withstand any serious scrutiny, aside from the belief in it created by you in the gullible customers. Therefore, continuing to sell it puts you in the unenviable and indefensible position of a hoaxter. If you disagree, present it for inspection to people who know what they are talking about (and not to people who don't know what they are talking about, such as your customers). Until then you'll remain a snake oil peddler who has no shame.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2011, 04:03:04 AM
I agree with the way you are proceeding. It's the best way to go about it without investing/borrowing. Omni is just jealous. If he doesn't like it or believe it, don't buy one.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 04:10:11 AM
I agree with the way you are proceeding. It's the best way to go about it without investing/borrowing. Omni is just jealous. If he doesn't like it or believe it, don't buy one.

That's the philosophy of a fraudster, especially when it comes to OU machines.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 07, 2011, 04:12:16 AM
Omnibus i think you are a bit mistaken. A customer is driven by results not tests. Someone buys a new car they are not so interested in exhaust emissions tests, exact round town MPG or exact BPH on the wheels they jump in a drive it. An hour later come back and say "yes please i have one" Garage says ok but you need to put down a deposit and we get one factory ordered.

Self running devices are real they existed for a long time. Doesn't really matter if you believer it or not. If it goes totally against the grain of your thought pattern then you are in the wrong forum. I seen several OU runners including looped motor gensets live over skype and that was about 4 years ago now. Not forgetting the TPU, Kapanadaze, looped water pump man etc.

I actually know of a small production facility RIGHT NOW making 500w looped motor generators for outback remote locations. They are sold on a referral basis after people see it running lighting up the place, watching tv etc then they put down 5k deposit. 10k balance paid on completion and they get full support should anything go wrong. Please don't ask where Im not able to say. The team wants to keep it low key and serve only local people he don't want international trolls causing trouble. Eventually it will become known after there is so many in use it will become self evident and well established.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 04:16:18 AM
That's the problem. The average customer is unable to judge whether or not the reasults are real. There are many seeming OU devices which in fact are not OU. The seller of such devices is not supposed to be some kind of magician extracting money from gullible customers "seeing results" while these result are actually hocus-pocus. This is a very destructive trend in the OU community and it is used a lot by various parties to the great detrement of the whole OU movement.

The guy here has no self-running HHO, he is deceiving his customers to make a profit off of their ignorance and, like I said, if he disagrees, he should submit his device for assessment to parties who know how to test it for OU. If he doesn't know who these parties are there are people here who can help him in this respect.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 07, 2011, 04:25:22 AM
If you are MILES from anywhere and off grid and a small unit provides constant 500 watts on a trusting neighbor referral basis with full technical support it doesn't get much better than that.  Its self evident the house is it lit up and you watch TV. 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2011, 04:29:36 AM
That's the problem. The average customer is unable to judge whether or not the reasults are real. There are many seeming OU devices which in fact are not OU. The seller of such devices is not supposed to be some kind of magician extracting money from gullible customers "seeing results" while these result are actually hocus-pocus. This is a very destructive trend in the OU community and it is used a lot by various parties to the great detrement of the whole OU movement.

The guy here has no self-running HHO, he is deceiving his customers to make a profit off of their ignorance and, like I said, if he disagrees, he should submit his device for assessment to parties who know how to test it for OU. If he doesn't know who these parties are there are people here who can help him in this respect.

Do you have proof of your claim that he does not have a working device? He does not need to submit his device for assessment. If you want one, buy one. If you don't, stay away from it. Even if he didn't need the money to produce them don't you think it would be a good idea to ask for a deposit? Everything you buy of substantial cost requires a deposit.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2011, 04:33:27 AM
That's the philosophy of a fraudster, especially when it comes to OU machines.

I don't know if his unit works or not but my comment is based on good business practice. I don't like being called a fraud, especially from someone who doesn't know me and I don't think you really want to get into that.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 04:33:51 AM
If you are MILES from anywhere and off grid and a small unit provides constant 500 watts on a trusting neighbor referral basis with full technical support it doesn't get much better than that.  Its self evident the house is it lit up and you watch TV.

This is your supposition. There's no such thing going and the "trudting neighbor" suggestion is just wishful thinking. One better would be for him to offer the device for free for a period of a year or so and see if the customer will indeed get the constant 500W coming and then sell him the device. That would be fair when OU device is being sold. Otherwise it's a hoax. Take the money and run. By the way, I didn't hear about a money-back guarantee.

Listen, like I said, the guy has no such device working as an OU one and he's just pulling our leg. Period.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 07, 2011, 04:37:03 AM
You know what really piss's me off Omni
When you call Les a  Fraudster ,Right out of the clear blue sky you call a man a Fraudster.

You might be from NY ,but the part I come from ,you talk to a man you don't even know like that,POW!right in the kisser!

You should get some manners!

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 04:41:32 AM
You know what really piss's me off Omni
When you call Les a  Fraudster ,Right out of the clear blue sky you call a man a Fraudster.

You might be from NY ,but the part I come ,you talk to a man you don't even know like that,POW!right in the kisser!

You should get some manners!

Chet

Yes, he is an outright fraudster. I don't need to know the guy to know that anybody who sells OU machines and makes profit off of it is a fraudster par excellence. Like I said, I'd love to be proven wrong. Let him submit his machine, prior to selling it, to a knowledgeable experts (not to a customer after extracting his money) who can prove it's OU and then I'll eat my words. At this moment he is nothing but a person perpetrating a hoax for personal gain.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 07, 2011, 04:46:43 AM
Every new piece of technology has a large startup cost. NO ONE can afford to give you something for a year for proof. I don't know the warranty details its not the point. When the first cars came out people thought the idea of a horseless carriage was nuts. People asked where the hay goes. Didn't take long before a wealthy neighbor bought one and it soon catches on after people realize it needs gas not hay and can travel faster and further than a horse. Did they give them a free trial run for a year? Hell NO.

Remember how much CD players cost the first year on the market? They were like 1500 each. After like 90 years of playing vinyl it was quite a mental jump in technology and mindset yet there was no shortage of people that went out and bought one full price.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2011, 04:53:33 AM
One better would be for him to offer the device for free for a period of a year or so and see if the customer will indeed get the constant 500W coming and then sell him the device. That would be fair when OU device is being sold. Otherwise it's a hoax.

OK. So he can't ask for investors or he's a fraud. He also can't ask for a deposit, or he's a fraud. You think he should offer the device for free for one year before paying for it.

Tell me, where is he suppose to get the money to buy the parts and build these devices. I guess shipping and installation should be free too.

You sound a lot like a disinformation agent. You just don't want to see anyone succeed.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 04:53:55 AM
Every new piece of technology has a large startup cost. NO ONE can afford to give you something for a year for proof. I don't know the warranty details its not the point. When the first cars came out people thought the idea of a horseless carriage was nuts. People asked where the hay goes. Didn't take long before a wealthy neighbor bought one and it soon catches on after people realize it needs gas not hay and can travel faster and further than a horse. Did they give them a free trial run for a year? Hell NO.

Remember how much CD players cost the first year on the market? They were like 1500 each. After like 90 years of playing vinyl it was quite a mental jump in technology and mindset yet there was no shortage of people that went out and bought one full price.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Not even apples with oranges but apples and unicorns. Please understand that all you've mentioned is foreseeable. It does not violate basic principles of science. Not one bit. Neighbors might not have known it but knowledgeable people knew it full well back then. Not so with OU. OU is not foreseeable and it is not for your neighbors to tell you it's there even if they venture to.

As for the startup cost. Tough. You can'e excuse fraud because startup cost is high. Especially regarding a controversial issue such as OU. The most controversial issue there is, I should say. That's immoral to do no matter how little money you have. Many do it but it doesn't make it more moral. Anybody making a profit off of an OU device at this point is a fraud by default.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 07, 2011, 04:55:53 AM
Omni
You are anonymous to us,you have a handle and no real name,
You know my name Its no secret,you know Les's name ,no secret.
pleaes be more considerate of a man and his reputation,

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 04:58:58 AM
Omni
You are anonymous to us,you have a handle and no real name,
You know my name Its no secret,you know Les's name ,no secret.
pleaes be more considerate of a man and his reputation,

Chet

Whay are you blaming me?. He is ruining his own reputation all by himself.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 05:01:46 AM
By the way, do you know of any satisfied customers of his that can be contacted? So far it's only his side of the story we're hearing.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 07, 2011, 05:07:11 AM
So basically you are saying Tesla, Kapanadze, the TPU, Sweet VTA and at least a dozen other devices are all hoax? if you believe that then honestly WHY are you here. Its totally illogical. Most people are here not to pass judgment hopeful they got pass the stage now of if OU exist or not and are going through a self learning stage to replicate something themselves within the budget they have available. Its on going research for the best method of energy transformation. If its HHO or magnet motors who cares its all possible.

 Even a 10Kw Solar system is not FREE sunlight, the idea sounds great but its gonna cost you about $20,000.

FREE energy is expensive so you want it you pay for it. If you don't believe it then walk away.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 05:41:02 AM
Well, I'm really amazed why you wonder I'm here. It is certainly not because of the likes of Kapanadze, hoaxer as he actually is. Not for Tesla too. Tesla's only contribution is the implementation of the AC current. I don't see anything else, especially with regard to OU, that is worth spending time on as far as Tesla goes. TPU deserves more study. Valery Ivanov's may be interesting. I visited him a couple of times but last year he (his wife rather) refused to meet with a bunch of us willing to do some measurements. Mind you, one of them, a very knowledgeable expert, is trying to replicate his machine. I don't know about the sweet VTA, haven't followed it. I have some other experience such as, visiting the Kinetica's supposed show by Steorn in London, visiting Reidar Finsrud near Oslo or Veljko Milkovic in Novi Sad let alone Water Torbay here in New York City and so on and so forth. And that is only recently. No much to report though, except for my own analyses which prove indisputably that there is OU. I don't know what more to say. The guy we're discussing has nothing resembling OU and many others too and he's just making up stories.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2011, 05:55:28 AM
Just visiting people doesn't make you an authority on what an OU device looks like does it?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on January 07, 2011, 09:24:04 AM
All,

The non-technical part of my last post was intended to draw BLOOD! 
Wow, it certainly did!!
I laid a trap and Omni fell into it with both feet!
No kidding! 

At this point, perhaps I should tell you that I spent more than 10 years of my life on INTENSE studies of the “system”, “law”, the legal system, the “con-stitution”, banking, the so-called “economy”, “taxation”, true history, religions, spirituality, psychology, etc., etc.
Thus, I know EXACTLY how the monkeys working for the “system” operate and I also gained the ability to make people reveal their true nature and intentions, without realizing that they are exposing themselves!

Don’t worry, I will not bother you with this material again.
(Perhaps in an other thread but only if requested!)

So what did Omni reveal??

If you are not sure, just go back and re-read his last few posts.
He is nothing more than a professional (paid??) DEBUNKER and SABOTEUR who, while pretending to be genuinely interested in OU, is desperately trying to STOP all progress in the field of  “free energy” research.

Please note his clever play on words:  he is clinging to the OU definition and the desperate need to remain in control while not a word about free energy!
Even when confronted with evidence of the existence of free energy, (see bolt’s posts) he is in desperate DENIAL!

Again, he INSISTS (just read his post again!) that ONLY “investor’s” money is to be used - but ONLY with the approval of  “authority” - simply because that way, investors, and investors ONLY, will decide which product will be allowed to be marketed!!

That is why he VIOLENTLY opposes the use of private money because that means the END of the financial control by you know whom!
Clever?  Not really.
If I can see all this, I am sure others can too.

bolt, MrMag, Chet & others,

Thanks for your support but don’t worry about me. 
Every time I stepped on some toes in the past, I have been called various names. 
I am used to it.  Part of the game called LIFE!  (Actually, it amuses me!)

Well, just for the hell of it, please ANALYZE my last post.
Did I claim that I had/have closed loop systems for sale??
(I wish that was the case.  However, IF it was, I would probably not be here right now, posting all this, would I???)
Further, did I reveal anywhere in that post WHICH product(s) I built my business on???
Oh, you can’t find it?   Small wonder, I never wrote it!

So where did Omni find all that which were never there in the first place?
Desperation requires desperate means. 
He made them up in the vague hope that they would not be noticed.

Bad luck Omni!
You have been busted!

I am finished with this issue and my next post will be technical only….promise….!

Best regards to all and enjoy the show!

Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 09:36:22 AM
I have nothing against raising money from investors or taking donations or what have you provided you very very clearly explain that you do not have a self-sustaining system but you will use their money towards research aimed at achieving that goal. You absolutely do not promise them ROI or any other financial return because in the end it may turn out that you have not achieved your goal. It people are willing to give you money under these conditions all power to you. That's a fair play. You, however, claim to have something you do not have and, like I said, rely on the gullability of people that are not in the know but can easily be manipulated by hearsay. You've studied the law aspects of such behavior and I don't think any state condones it. On the contrary, it is known that there are a number of cases both in the US and abroad when such swindlers have been held accountable for such behavior. Perendev comes to mind as one recent case or, earler, Dennis Lee. This type of behavior is the real impediment to progress not when reminding that milking investors shoild be a big no-no in the OU community.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: neptune on January 07, 2011, 12:30:39 PM
@Omnibus .By and large I agree with much of what you say . You appear to be a well educated man ,but trust me , don't even consider a career in the Diplomatic Service . Maybe we ought to have a collection to send you to Charm School . If these 500 watt OU devices are really out there we shall know very soon . Even in wartime , it is very difficult to keep secrets in spite of the vast resources available . If this is fact it would be the story of the millennium . Any journalist would swim the pacific for this story . Only problem I can see is the first rule of journalism . Never let facts stand in the way of a good story .
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: imburner on January 07, 2011, 01:01:20 PM
Is this place going anywhere? I would like to see some power generation going on without all the debunking. Is this possible? Wanna put a lid on it OMNI?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 07, 2011, 01:41:45 PM
bolt
150.00 bucks for the genny?Have you got a link?

Chet

GEEEEZ................
Omni ,I have a proposal,not a business proposal,an Open source venue.
I realise from your posts that we are almost neighbors.
I have traveled by car whenever possible to meet men that claim to have OU devices.also calling folks whenever possible.
I see you do this also [on a grander scale]
Start to think about a replication attempt .Nothing all consuming ,I have the skills to build this as demonstrated by Oliver,We have others here who would no doubt assist "Technically",
An open invite to you to build an open source replication,I am not looking to "Run the Show".
I am presently up to my eyeballs in getting my prototype to market [I build purpose built living aids[furniture] for handicapped children].
but we should talk sometime .
Give it a good think!
Chetkremens@gmail.com
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 09:49:03 PM
bolt
150.00 bucks for the genny?Have you got a link?

Chet

GEEEEZ................
Omni ,I have a proposal,not a business proposal,an Open source venue.
I realise from your posts that we are almost neighbors.
I have traveled by car whenever possible to meet men that claim to have OU devices.also calling folks whenever possible.
I see you do this also [on a grander scale]
Start to think about a replication attempt .Nothing all consuming ,I have the skills to build this as demonstrated by Oliver,We have others here who would no doubt assist "Technically",
An open invite to you to build an open source replication,I am not looking to "Run the Show".
I am presently up to my eyeballs in getting my prototype to market [I build purpose built living aids[furniture] for handicapped children].
but we should talk sometime .
Give it a good think!
Chetkremens@gmail.com

I'm all for this kind of cooperation but this particular project requires substantial infrastructure which I don't have at this point. It has always been on my mind to do research in this area but I've put in the back burner for the time being and am focusing more on gravity and magnetic motors as well as the study of the RC circuit I reported on several occasions here. Hope to be able to post some new results in the near future. As for the HHO reasearch, I'll continue paying attention to what's going on and hope to be in touch so at some point we could do more than just discuss it theoretically.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 07, 2011, 11:11:06 PM
Omni
Well as you know I like magnets [called Calloway also].
And there is that Landon Jr. fellow down by me ,I forget his first name ,but had a self runner I went to see, However he was going for the Gold.

Perhaps I'll go see him again and see how the fame and fortune route is working out.

Good to know your open to these types of collaborations.
And I believe we have a few other open source engineers up in this Northeast corrider.

Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 11:13:53 PM
Omni
Well as you know I like magnets [called Calloway also].
And there is that Landon Jr. fellow down by me ,I forget his first name ,but had a self runner I went to see, However he was going for the Gold.

Perhaps I'll go see him again and see how the fame and fortune route is working out.

Good to know your open to these types of collaborations.
And I believe we have a few other open source engineers up in this Northeast corrider.

Thanks
Chet

Did you actually see the self-runner running or it was again promises, promises ... ?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 11:26:06 PM
Is that him: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bill_Landon_Jr._Magnet_Motor ? So, "he is hoping an entrepreneur will come along to fund to create a working model." So, he actually doesn't have a working model but is hoping that an entrepreneur will pop-up out of the blue and will fund him, right? Is that a joke or what?

I thought you might wanna open a special thread to discuss that but what is there to discuss?

EDIT: So, see what we got here: http://www.rexresearch.com/landon/landon.htm
"Landon flicks the rotor and it spins for several minutes."

Again, is that some kind of joke or the guy thinks everybody else is stupid?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 07, 2011, 11:56:44 PM
Well,
I'm trying to finish up in the shop for a supper break.
He's a nice guy actually ,spent several hours at his home,We have a thread here somewhere?.
Gotta go
Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 08, 2011, 07:42:54 AM
bolt
150.00 bucks for the genny?Have you got a link?

Chet


No not 150 bucks what do you think really?  Production started in late November in VERY small numbers small team workshop. Quite a lot like magnacoaster and not so different in concept. Price im told is $15,000 for 500 watt device. I cant say any more about it because the guy wants to stay low key for now at least. 

Hey have you seen a 5Hp  3 phase motor RV motor drive a 5Hp 3 phase alternator before its looped and the total idle power it consumes just 15 watts?  That is the same power as a Xmas light  to turn 200 pound of machinery at 2900 rpm. Anyone can do it.  With a 15 watts as a loss do you think it cant be looped? You bet it can i see this myself  4 years ago.

Here is another guy just getting into this stuff and he is doing very well. I/p power is about 20-24 watts on 7.5 HP motors.  Like the HHO system despite the losses on friction and power conversion this is loop-able and a lot quieter:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkmLKjZNSSc
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 08, 2011, 03:31:16 PM
bolt
Quote:
Thread is 18 pages now and no sign of replications yet! Has anyone gone out and bought a Chinese gentset only cost about 150 bucks and got this working?
----------------------------------
Thats the Genset I was refering to [Anton]
Gotta Link?

Thanks for the Movie!
Chet
PS
The above post was also the inspiration for asking my Nieghbor {Omni]
if he wanted to do a Joint replication attempt [its cheap to do].
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: TinselKoala on January 08, 2011, 03:53:36 PM
Is this place going anywhere? I would like to see some power generation going on without all the debunking. Is this possible? Wanna put a lid on it OMNI?

So would I. So would all of us, which I believe includes Omnibus. So far, though, the people who are doing "all the debunking" have more facts on their side than those who claim to be generating power. There's one sure way to shut up a debunker for good:

Prove what you claim.

And there's a surefire way to win the OverUnity Prize:

Close the Loop.

This is another thread whose title does not reflect the content. That is, there aren't any selfrunning HHO systems with 400 Watts additional output.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 08, 2011, 03:55:38 PM
TK
You didn't watch Stefans big movie at the top of the Forum?  :o

The one Where the Cell runs the genset which runs the cell and the 400 watts [yes we Know about the load measurement thingy] of lights which runs the cell ,which runs the ............... see above!

WOW, did we just go loop D loo??

Yeah we did !
Thats why we're here!
Its impossible!,or is it....................?

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on January 08, 2011, 09:44:48 PM
@TK
you are right, close the loop. No one has claimed the OU prize yet. I am perhaps a skeptic by default. I have seen many devices over the years, many first hand. I have an open mind but where I become one of the skeptics is I have seen good people lose their life savings believing in bogus claims.
The Anton cell and video looks convincing, But they themselves have not made the claim it is is self running but showing the possibilities. We can not be sure without proper testing that a carbon compound was not present in the system so there remains some doubt...but their work is important and good.
I appreciate the efforts of you and many other like Clanzer on replicating and your own research. My hat is of to you.
There are many other people working on the holy grail who are not in the forums and there is some promise.
However until I see the loop closed....I will remain unconvinced.
Many people who have purchased cells like the Anton cell have obviously tried to close the loop..but none to date have successfully replicated what we saw in the video.
I know of a few projects that show promise...but until they are independently proved they will remain behind closed doors.
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: hartiberlin on January 08, 2011, 11:01:33 PM
Hi Omnibus,
please stop your arguments and SPAM postings and don´t call it all a fraud here,
otherwise I will set you on Read only.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.(admin)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 09, 2011, 03:01:41 AM
The gas generator they are using is made by United Power. They are Chinese and sold virtually all over the world.

Here is a larger one in the UK from ebay its excellent value for money. Even if you don't loop it then you always have a standby genset for freak weather, snow, floods, hurricanes etc.

http://tinyurl.com/2w74zdr

Here is an excellent dry cell its very close to Anton. Who came first? Don't know but its cost 1/4 of the price of Anton. Just the 316 plates alone will cost 80% of the total cost then you still need to spend hours trying to build it. Without decent machine tools it will be crap so just buy a professional machined cell.

http://tinyurl.com/2u7pexp

Im up to about 300 euro/pounds so far for this setup. The large starting PSU is NOT required. Use a FWBR and a run cap to provide 1kw or whatever you need cost about 10 bucks/euro/pounds

So for less than 500 you have a system. Still got 200 left to make the spark control and fittings. Anyone got any money or did you blow it on HD TV's over xmas?

"you are right, close the loop. No one has claimed the OU prize yet. "

The loop already been closed!  Actually most people wont bother claiming the prize. For a start its only what about 15k so far. Most of it is in pledges from years ago. As with most pledges half wont pay out when the time comes even large charity events only see fractions of pledges by people made the SAME week so its about a 7-10k prize due to the hassle of producing copy units, shipping units is not cheap with dealing with gensets, motors and the like and having crucial hardware tied up with tests for months. So its better if you have something you improve it and just sell it and make more money ready for your next batch. This is exactly what these guys are doing  once its stable enough. I very much doubt they will ever apply for the prize its not like posting a Joule Thief in a jiffy bag.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Hope on January 09, 2011, 09:08:06 PM
Seems like that NASA paper likes fuel reformers directly converting a reactive solution into hydroxy anyone could mix.   Perhaps the Pantrone fuel reformers additional input had a purpose originally.   Just a thought since I have a new genset and made a J. L. Naudin model of the fuel reformer (Proof of concept model, up to 10HP).   I hate to test anything till spring time.  The island loses power in the winter and we are a family here..  but I may get brave,
this system may be the best to date on efficiency.  So lets consider it's value in the real arena of "can use now" technologies.    The generator is 1,200 watts    and i will keep it at that description till it is of worth noting   and it is a 2 cycle.   
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Doctor No on January 09, 2011, 09:12:21 PM
Because population is becoming more dumb, brainwashed by TV, behaving like herd of mentally disabled consumers driven by media. Values are no more. Regards,
pix
According to what You had written many times against my technologies, i think You are right. You are completely brain washed!;-]  But after national socialism wins in Poland, Your brain will be feeded with much more as only 400 W of power.                  You and others can this easily to prove.      On 22.01 on Bydgoszcz politechnic (Politechnische Hochschule) will be presentation held of: series ready DRJ200.11 CNF >100% OU reactor, prototype of DRJ600.11 350% OU reactor, and  later outside town, some kms away, parts of our own "Star Wars" (Sternchen Kriege) elements ready to use!:-(     For more info, please call only: 0048-790 818 838 8-10 pm only till this Friday. www.nsppp.bloog.pl 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: altrez on January 09, 2011, 09:24:19 PM
How is the generator lubricated? Its a 2-cycle if I am not mistaken so it needs a fuel / oil mix.

-Altrez
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on January 09, 2011, 09:28:28 PM
Oh dear.. Mr. Nowak (that retard Neo-Nazi) is still kicking?
How typical for this site. And, very typical for the site owner, Stefan, "DA OU MAN"... Jeeeez...

By the time you'll be all able to recognise the fault, it will be too late...








Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Hope on January 09, 2011, 09:29:00 PM
Chet you all are on to the real picture here.  We have been trying to prevent certain reactions, but should have been controlling "where" these reactions occure instead.   The copper/mag beads maybe sourceable.  Plenty of room inprocess for those critters.   Copper screens / SS316 Screens  trapping compacted 3.2-millimeter-long (0. 125-in. -long) pellets of manganese and copper.   That rethinking the HHO on demand with insolution metal (stainless) still fits this model.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Doctor No on January 09, 2011, 09:49:39 PM
How is the generator lubricated? Its a 2-cycle if I am not mistaken so it needs a fuel / oil mix.

-Altrez
Yes, really, heat production is not all this machine can do. It can stay for chemistry use, oil industry, heavy water production and more.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: spinn_MP on January 09, 2011, 09:52:17 PM
Yes, really, heat production is not all this machine can do. It can stay for chemistry use, oil industry, heavy water production and more.
Fantastic... Good for your party.

Idiot!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Doctor No on January 09, 2011, 10:19:16 PM
I think, You are some light years away from real XXI century technologies. But try to catch with Obama bin Laden (vel: Osama del Barrack). I^ve heard, that guy has more advanced technologies. Some will be given Angela Merken (zu spate);-]
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: altrez on January 09, 2011, 10:28:56 PM
Yes, really, heat production is not all this machine can do. It can stay for chemistry use, oil industry, heavy water production and more.

I am sorry perhaps what I asked was lost in translation. A 2-cycle engine normally requires the use of an oil / fuel mixture to keep the generator running correctly. Are you saying that your generator is configured to allow it to be ran and lubricated without the use of any oil or lubricant in the fuel, for the 2-cycle engine?

-Altrez
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: XS-NRG on January 09, 2011, 10:34:08 PM
i was wondering the same thing.

I was already wondering if it was a four stroke engine.
If it indeed is a two stroke engine it needs oil and it will produce some smoke from burning the oil even when it is running on hydrogen.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Low-Q on January 09, 2011, 10:50:52 PM
An engine with no need of oil should perhaps be made up of ceramic components which do not expand much when getting hot. And it will stand the heat much better than most metals used in engines. What about a jet engine which runs on HHO?

Vidar
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Doctor No on January 09, 2011, 11:43:21 PM
The one only proper answer is as above. All our DRJ^s uses ceramic rings for insulation, to withstand temps and run for a long time. To this, they are not 2 cycle, but continous vortex. Had heard probably about Wankel rotary engines? Mazda is also using them for Rx models.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: XS-NRG on January 09, 2011, 11:47:25 PM
that is either a 4 or a 2 stroke OHV engine.
it's no rotary wankel engine.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on January 10, 2011, 08:30:46 AM
Zane & others,

Timer and its modifications.

First, a few words about this timer project:

I designed it for general use to switch any type & size of load.
Only the timer, the interphase circuit, a 12V power supply and a suitable relay is needed.

When I first got the idea that a timer would be desirable, I had basically two options:

Design my own from scratch, or buy a ready made one which most likely would not have the functions I wanted.

Considering the cost of a dedicated timer design, I looked around to see what was available.
Even after a thorough and rather lengthy search, I could NOT find a timer which would do what I wanted!
There are large number of timers available (some very cheap) but they ALL need to be modified and require to be interphased with the circuit(s) to be switched.

To cut a long story short: 
Of the large number of timers I looked at, this one (the one in this project ) won hands down!
It runs on a single AA battery.
A good quality Alkaline cell lasts for several years!  (my own experience)
It counts UP, DOWN and has a MEMORY function.

BUT, please note that the TIMER section is NOT tied to the CLOCK function and thus this project is NOT for programmed timing events!
(There are plenty of ready made units available for that purpose!)

Modifying the TIMER:

Since it is not easy to explain (or understand a verbal only explanation), I have attached some pictures which show the details.

1.  Open the timer.  Be careful not to break the 4 ‘hooks’ which clip the two halves together!
2.  Remove (un-solder) the 2 wires to the piezo buzzer and the 2 battery wires.
3.  Lay the timer face down on a flat surface and remove the 7 screws holding the circuit board. 
4.  After carefully removing the board, DO NOT touch any of the contacts (particularly those of the display!) and keep the box in the same (horizontal) position, otherwise all the buttons will fall out!
5.  The ferrite core coil wrapped in yellow tape (and the transistor next to it) you see in the picture named “ECU timer pcb-top” is the buzzer driver.
(the coil ‘transforms’ the low battery voltage to HIGH to drive the buzzer)
It is this buzzer driver signal we need but we cannot make a direct connection because that would upset its operation.
Isolation is achieved by adding a separate winding of 6 – 10 turns to this coil.

6.  To add this secondary winding, you need to lift up the coil a bit from the board, or, leave it in the same position but you need to remove enough of the hot-melt glue under it to enable those 6 – 10 turns of thin wire to be wound.
(If you wish, you can remove the coil from the board, wind the extra coil on it and then re-fit it.  This way it is easier to fit the extra winding but the whole job takes a bit longer.)

If you have some very thin, insulated ‘hook-up’ wire, you can wrap THAT around the coil and, after locking it in place, (with ‘hot melt’ glue again!?) bring out the ends!
(make sure the wires are long enough!)

One end of this added coil is connected to the jumper wire (to the right of the coil in the picture “ECU timer pcb-top”) and brought out of the box.
This (black wire in the picture) is connected to Ground (-) on the interphase pcb.
The other end of this coil (red wire) goes (through C5) to the base of transistor Q1.

7.  The third wire to be fitted as per picture “ECU timer wire solder”.

Note the black line: it indicates where to drill the 0.8 – 1 mm hole.
The wire is soldered to the pad next to it.
Don’t apply too much solder to this joint. 
(there is not much room between the pcb and the buttons)

This wire (light blue in the picture) is connected to C1/R1 on the timer interphase pcb.

To sum it up: 
Only 3 wires are coming out of the timer and are connected as described above.
(If you don’t need/want the noise from the buzzer, disconnect or remove the wires to it!
The battery will last longer!)

The above detailed description might give an impression of complexity but in reality the modifications are simple and easy, albeit somewhat time consuming!

Have fun!

Best regards,
Les Banki




 




Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 10, 2011, 07:33:04 PM
Les,
You truly are a wonderful Man!Our Hats go off to you sir!thankyou for making your vast experience available to us.

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on January 12, 2011, 05:15:01 AM
Glory be Les!
                 What a wonderful smile I have, as I have just now started reading through your downloads maticulously I am extremely satisfied with your contributions here.

It also is very clear how much work needs to be done to catch up with you and your knowlege.

Thanks
Zane
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: kcarring on January 12, 2011, 06:33:06 AM
"Also inside the elevator there could not be any hidden cables as some people always claim.. People wake up, this is a real system selfrunning !

pfff From that video? "More like people wake up, there's a battery sitting on the table with enough amp hours to run a  drycell for 8 minutes, there could be alcohol in the bubbler and reservoir for all we know" come on.. really... that video -alone- means not a single thing. Completely inconclusive.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 12, 2011, 06:03:47 PM
KC
You don't sound like a nice man,usually crooks think everybody is a crook?

Keep your wallet in your pocket and your eyes on these boys,

WE shall see!!

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on January 12, 2011, 08:06:04 PM
I love your optimism Ramset, but the realty is that no one so far has been able to replicate this.
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 17, 2011, 12:33:23 AM
...probably because hardly anyone has tried. Where are the failed replications in this case?? Don't assume everyone else is going to try it. One thing i have learned since the dawn of the Internet is there are not millions of people doing anything out of the ordinary. You can count on one hand how many will try anything new.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on January 17, 2011, 12:45:09 AM
"Also inside the elevator there could not be any hidden cables as some people always claim.. People wake up, this is a real system selfrunning !

pfff From that video? "More like people wake up, there's a battery sitting on the table with enough amp hours to run a  drycell for 8 minutes, there could be alcohol in the bubbler and reservoir for all we know" come on.. really... that video -alone- means not a single thing. Completely inconclusive.

That battery only runs the 10 watts required to power the spark gap. Its only 7ah and that cell is going to be need about 700 watts. The cell needs 58 amps!

 The 7ah is rated for 20 hour discharge in sub hour discharges it will die in half that time so about 3.5Ah or 42 watt/hour so it will be dead flat in under a minute in fact it cant even push that much current for more than a few seconds. So now we got that theory out of the way it only leaves alcohol in the bubbler. Well why bother to fake it? They are not entering for prize money nor seeking millions for investment.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: gsmsslsb on January 17, 2011, 08:11:46 AM
bolt
I sent you a private message.
Did you get it.
If you dont want to discuss it just let me know.
gsm
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on January 18, 2011, 03:49:13 PM
XS NRG
And QuarkToo also pointed this out 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyNc-97ZFhM&feature=related

Perhaps what Oliver {anton cell] Meant about pursuing
other meens of harvesting from the cells.

Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: smartscarecrow on January 20, 2011, 08:12:06 PM
The demonstration looks quite impressive to me ... however, I have been fooled before so must admit to being quite skeptical ... having run small engines on 100% HHO before, I note that the "sound" the engine is making is not quite what I would have expected ... an engine run on just HHO tends to have sort of a hollow sound to it instead of the manly "roar" this one appears to be making ...

there is a VERY simple way to validate this ... cork the exhaust of the engine ... if its running on just HHO, the engine will continue to run, though will labor a bit ... when running on just HHO, there is so little exhaust pressure and volume that it can easily escape from the crankcase vent system so the exhaust can be corked ...

another thing that would go a long way toward convincing me would be a simple head temperature and/or exhaust temperature reading with a IR temp probe ... an engine run on just HHO will only produce head/exhaust temps in the 200F range, not the 600-700F range common with petrol ...

so while I am very impressed with the demonstration Oliver and Valention have shown us, I need a little more hard evidence to be a believer ... I want to believe, but I have been fooled by tricksters before and am highly skeptical ...

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: quarktoo on January 23, 2011, 12:28:08 AM
I tend to agree with Mark on this one.  There are many things here that do not ring true.

1)  Those high revving two stroke gensets require a high volume of HHO/any 'gas' fuel to be produced to sustain operation.  That particular cell is not big enough nor is it being delivered the adequate amount of amps to generate sufficient gas volume.  Common sense dictates that this last comment be true otherwise the genset would not be able to run the load.
2)  Running a ICE inside a building is proof of NOTHING.  For those of you familiar with GEET technology, even running air vapor through a water/gasoline mix (as Mark suggests) will produce VERY clean exhaust (but still with the telltale hydrocarbons).  The exhaust is cleaner due to the 'water injection' and has a twofold effect of increasing the octane level (if gasoline used) hence burning the fuel more efficiently and secondly having a anti detonant effect.

You have to calm down and see past the bulldust here.  I believe what they actually are doing is putting a very small amount of alcohol based fuel (like Ethanol) in the water bubbler.  Normally, less than 50/50 mixture and the engine definitely wont start AND this mix requires heating first if you don't have a geet reactor attached.  However, IF you were to make this mix say 80% water and 20% Ethanol and then supplement the air intake with HHO, this will be more than sufficient to generate an overall enriched 'combination vapor' where the engine would run extremely efficiently.

If what Mark states is true (about these folk refusing exhaust analysis), I almost 100% guarantee this is what they are doing.  They are probably waiting for a gullible investor that doesnt insist on tests so that they can continue with the HHO research which is a LONG way from self running by itself.

That's it.

E-Goose

You forgot the old hydrogen peroxide and silver electrode trick. Even the 400ma output of an IC will yield impressive volumes of gas with too much oxygen to make it useful.

If anyone bilks a bankster out of millions using that trick, I deserve a cut.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Doctor No on January 24, 2011, 08:46:28 PM
We will show such self running HHO system probably end of Februar/March. It will be rather for industry cos for home price will be to much.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: XS-NRG on January 24, 2011, 08:57:57 PM
i don't believe it.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on January 29, 2011, 11:00:04 AM
My ignition/injection control circuit is now ready, including the pcb layout.

I should mention that those who only want to experiment and don't want the extra complexity and/or cost of an additional circuit board, (the ‘autorpm’) they can use the MANUAL injection system, 'as is', right now!
On the pcb I have provided some simple means to use it as a 'stand alone' manual system, OR, connected to the automatic RPM control board. 
(See details in the ‘Circuit description of Electronic Ignition V.5)

However, when adjusting the injection (speed) MANUALLY, engine RPM needs to be measured/monitored by some means!

The block diagram of the ‘autorpm’ system may aid understanding my design philosophy.

(The attachments are for those who like to DO things instead of arguing……!)

Have fun!

Best regards,
Les Banki

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with MW range output
Post by: Doctor No on February 02, 2011, 11:32:40 PM
Probably on 12.02 during show of DRJ200.11 and DRJ600 we will show our own, industry ready engine. Please refer to topics with DRJ. Doctor No      www.nsppp.bloog.pl
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bsibille on February 03, 2011, 12:49:08 AM
@Les, great stuff, thanks for posting!  ;D  The whole timing/waste spark thing has been a pain, when a standard "delay" circuit is done will make this pretty easy.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on February 04, 2011, 01:32:38 AM
All,

Here is a picture of the "dreaded" (by some!) MONSTER board which will be fitted to the engine.

(Needless to say you have to make a bracket for it!  The only other thing you need is a small bar magnet to be fitted to the rocker arm of the exhaust valve.)

The two versions shown differ only in the way of mounting them.
These boards were etched together (3 years ago!) with my first ignition/injection pcb.

Ignore the +9V marking as the Melexis US2881 Hall switch can operate from 3.5V to 24V!

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Low-Q on February 06, 2011, 10:55:46 AM
We will show such self running HHO system probably end of Februar/March. It will be rather for industry cos for home price will be to much.
Too expensive for home use? What makes you think it will not be too expensive for industrial purpose?
If this is "free energy" in an "open source forum", just post your findings, and we can all build a selfrunning HHO machine ourself. Oh, I forgot, When someone finally find the holy grail, greed will take place, and what once was "open source", are now a patent pending thing which will prevent other people from making a better world... ::)

I read you will be finished at the end of this month/March. Well, I think we will get a message regarding "problems found in the design" which will not be resolved. So in three years from now, we are still waiting for the self running HHO machine ;D

Good luck with your project anyways :)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on February 14, 2011, 02:34:06 AM
All,

First of all, perhaps some of you would like to know that I have now successfully completed the design of the feedback loop for the ‘automatic RPM control’ circuit.

It works better than I expected!

Since ‘super’ accuracy is hardly needed for the generator’s output frequency of 50Hz,
I did not make any accuracy measurements but regulation seems to be very tight
(probably within 1%). 
More about this in the circuit description.

Further, the feedback loop has also eliminated the Digital Potentiometer and associated components so the overall design is considerably simplified!

My next task is the pcb layout. 
Circuit diagram and description are already done but because of changes sometimes necessary during the pcb layout, some editing may be required.

Thus, the diagram, description and pcb layout will be released together.

But the main reason for today’s post is the story about my friend George.

Since it is too long for one post, I divided in two.
In my next post I will conclude the story and my REASONS for writing it!
I will also attach some pictures George sent me.

Actually, I wrote the first part of this story in 2007 (4 years ago!) and it was published in the “waterfuelforall.com” Forum.

Here it is:

George (79) is from Townsville. [about 2000km from here (Melbourne)]
He was told about me and what I am doing by Len (an ex politician, who is, by the way, a very nice fellow and those just don’t last in ‘politics’!)
Len had seen my small demo cell in operation and was very impressed!  He knows a lot of people all over the country and he was/is telling everyone who cares to listen!
Next thing I got a call from George.  He planned to come down to my next presentation which was very technical.  In addition, he also asked to spend a few hours with me.
He arrived (with a friend) about 1pm on the day of the meeting and we went directly from here to the meeting venue and continued there. 
So, for me, there was virtually non-stop talking from 1pm to almost midnight!
Anyway, when George returned home, he made a cell according to my instructions in addition to the visual impression of my demo cell.  He also duplicated my gas measuring ‘gauge’ which I designed.

Since he has done precision work, it all worked as expected.  He played with it for a while, exploded a bit of the gas, etc., to get the feel of it all.  He gained respect for the power of Hydroxy.
Next, he made a larger, 7 cell unit, following the same design principles. 
It produces 3 L/min. of Hydroxy.
Not having a proper power supply, he powered the cell from a small alternator, driven by a small electric motor.  At that stage, he did not measure the power input to the cell. 
He mentioned that he had the impression that only the two outer cells were producing gas.  I said that didn’t make sense and asked him to make some measurements.
I told him to remove the top of the cell, power it up and measure the voltage between the plates for each cell.  One by one.
This test returned the following results:

When powered from a (car) battery, the voltage was the same across each pair of plates (cells), 1.72V which adds up to 12.04V (which was the battery voltage under load)
Then, he powered the cell from the alternator and measured 1.95V across each cell which adds up to 13.65V.  He borrowed a DC clamp meter and measured the current to be 40A.
That means he was putting 13.65 x 40 = 546W into the cell to produce 3 L/min. of gas.

Then he had the idea to try to run a lawn mower on it.  (He invited a friend who is also interested in this technology, to give him a hand.)
They started the lawn mower on petrol and ran the carburetor dry and the engine stopped.  Then they fed the Hydroxy in and it ran beautifully for the about 2 minutes when they experienced a back fire which promptly destroyed his ‘bubbler’!
No-one was hurt and the only ‘casualty’ was the poor bubbler which was made of Acrylic! 
(That is a NO-NO! – UNLESS it is designed with a pop-off top!  He also made the mistake of allowing about 4” – which is WAY too much - of gas on the top of the water!)

George made the comment that there was more gas than was needed to run that lawn mower. (the gas pressure was building up) 
There was NO adjustment or modifications to the engine.

He does not know the size (cubic capacity) but according to a professional friend of mine who repairs LARGE number of lawn mowers, most of them are no less than 148cc.
According to him, engines of that size are normally rated at around 3.5 horse power.
Now, considering the above figures it is clear that so-called ‘over unity’ has already been achieved as the engine produces more power than it needs to make its own fuel!

To be continued….

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on February 15, 2011, 02:49:34 AM
O.K.
Here is the rest of the story…..

George then wanted to make a 120 cell unit so I emailed him my drawings.
He followed them ‘to the letter’, according to him, did not deviate ‘one iota’ from the drawings!
When he ‘fired it up’ for the first time, he instantly blew all his mains power 15A fuses! 
He then phoned me and I advised him to fill the cell only partially.
In order to not to blow his fuses, he could only fill the cell about 40mm from the bottom.
Even then, after about 2-3 minutes, his circuit breakers (which I advised him to use) were tripping again!
However, before the circuit breakers tripped, he made some measurements.
The gas (HHO) was pouring out at a rate of 36 L/minute!!
Sure, the power input was something like 3.6kW  (240Vx15A) but hey, that is about
100 W/L per minute!

In short:  he had NO means of controlling the power input since my AC phase control circuit design was not ready at that time!
[As a temporary supply, I made him a box with a 25A bridge rectifier (on a heath sink) and a 10A moving coil meter in it.  (you can see this box in some of the pictures)]

The whole point is that the efficiency of that set up was/is over 200% ‘Faraday’!

George sent me many pictures of that cell and the whole set up.
He also took pictures of how they made the grooves for the plates with his friend’s OLD milling machine!
But he took those with the “old fashioned” film camera and sent me the copies in the mail.

The story does not stop there!
Next thing I knew, George ‘modified’ a router table to make the grooves him self and took some photos of the modifications!
This time, however, he took those pictures with a digital camera at my request and emailed them to me!

He made one Acrylic board with the 120 grooves for me as well and sent it to me!
(You can see it in one of the attached pictures.)
That is what I am going to use to make my 120 cell electrolyzer for the prototype set up.

Now to the POINT of this long story:

Here we have a man (George, now 83) who, at the age of 81, modified a router table and made 120 grooves, all by himself, while others are moaning and groaning, bitching about how difficult and complicated everything is!
As an example, here is a quote from a post (and my response to it) which appeared more than 3 years on the ‘waterfuelforall.com’ Forum:

 
 
Pep Talk For Those Of You Who Are Not Inclined To Build The Banki System
« on: September 08, 2007, 05:56:42 AM »   
________________________________________
“The Banki cell project is a big, tedious, expensive, complicated, and highly problematic build for guys that are either not electronically inclined and/or are not mechanically inclined.  Therefore, it might be a good idea to build a smaller cell to begin with using the size plates recommended by Les Banki.  I'm thinking a 10 plate cell would be a good place to start.  It would be much cheaper to fabricate than the larger cells and also much easier to build.  If after testing it you decided that you wanted a bigger cell, you could always use the plates out of the smaller cell in your larger cell.  That way, all you would have lost would be a little acrylic/ABS and your time.  You would however have gained a lot of experience though.  Some of you will never attempt to build a large cell, so you might as well attempt the smaller cell.  This way you could build the system first hand and gain a whole lot of experience and expertise.  If you are not a serious builder and/or that handy with tools, I'd suggest building the smaller cell and testing it out.  That way you can brag to your friends at least and say that you did make a Banki cell. 

Don't let this project scare you off before you get started!  There is to much to be gained from this technology for you not to get involved and build this system.  The trick is to start small and work your way up to big if it's not your cup of tea.  Do not be scared away.  This technology is within your grasp, so take my challenge and build this system whether you are (mechanically inclined)/(electronically inclined) or not!

I'm very mechanically inclined but challenged in the electronic area but I am going to do this thing.  So, join me and let's build this Banki system together.”

My response to this was:   
Once again, I make no excuses for being harsh and blunt!
I find your post(s) contradictory and your personal perceptions misleading, which will only confuse people!

“The Banki cell project is a big…..

BIG, yes.  What did you expect?  My work (and I would say this Forum) is NOT about ‘boosters’.  With only a small number of cells you will never have a high enough efficiency to run ANY size engine.   Period.
To those readers (if any) who may disagree with my philosophy:
 â€œWATER OR NOTHING”,  I would say: you are on the WRONG Forum!

“tedious, expensive, complicated…” ,

With all due respect, how did you arrive at those conclusions??  I don’t know what some of you expect but if you are going to bitch about a few hundred dollars investment, then, this is NOT for you and you should stop right here…..!

“and highly problematic build for guys that are either not electronically inclined and/or are not mechanically inclined.”

Really??
Most people are NOT “electronically inclined” and you can’t blame them for that.
It should be obvious that I set out to TRY to help those who are not.
However, “…are not mechanically inclined”….you must be joking….what are those doing on ANY free energy site/Forum??????

“That way you can brag to your friends at least and say that you did make a Banki cell.”

Goodness me, I can’t believe I am reading this…..! 

End quote.

Well, then.
A few weeks ago I asked George if he could ‘shoot’ some new photos with his digital camera for me to publish.
He said sure but I would have to wait for a while.
Then, a few days ago, at my son’s suggestion, I scanned a couple of the photos he sent me in the mail and they turned out surprisingly well!!
So I emailed him to tell him that there is no need to take new shots.
The scanned ones are good enough for the purpose.

I have attached 4 more of those scanned pictures of the 120 cell set up so you could get an idea what is involved.

My next post will deal with the technical aspects of running series cell electrolyzers on 50/60Hz AC power supply.

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: vrand on February 15, 2011, 04:03:08 PM
Thanks for sharing your research Oliver and Valentine, keep up the good work!

Please let us know when you will be selling a completed genset unit running on water.  We would like to power our homes on water, as electricity costs have been rising due to the high cost of oil.

Cheers,
Mike
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on February 16, 2011, 08:28:02 AM
This is for those who are interested in the series cell electrolyzer technology:

Judging by a number of private emails I have received over the years (and also questions during my technical “lectures”), it seems that this subject is NOT properly understood by many experimenters.

Several have also asked:  Are you using Bob Boyce’s design?

The common misconception seems to be that Bob Boyce "invented" the series cell arrangement!
(I was making series cells many years before I even heard about Bob Boyce!
I was not even on Internet in those days......nor did I have a computer!)

I have pointed all this out several times in my writings!

If you want to understand the ‘physics’ behind the series cell design, please study the 1967 US Patent 3,310,483 by Dr. William A. Rhodes.

In that patent, he also explains WHY there is NO NEED to "seal" the cells!

All my series cell designs are based on 0.5mm plate thickness (SS 316 or 316L) and the optimum gap between the plates is 3mm.
[This optimum gap was found experimentally by several researchers (including Bob Boyce and myself)].

Note that the distance between groove CENTERS is 3.5mm

The slitting saw blade width we use to make the grooves is 0.6mm.
Obviously, the gap between the plates and the walls of the grooves is only 0.1mm!!
The grooves are 5mm deep. 
(the importance of the groove depth is explained in the above Patent)

I have attached 3 files to this post for the benefit of those who are interested in the technical details and explanations. 
Please study them carefully.
(I was forced to reduce the resolution of the scanned image of the old graph, due to file size restrictions on this Forum!

Also, I wish to make a comment on Oliver & Valentin’s achievement.

In my opinion, they succeeded mainly because they have done two things:
1.  Eliminated the ‘waste spark’ and ADJUSTED the ignition timing.
2.  Their ‘Anton’ cell(s) receive PULSED power from the generator’s output of 220V/50Hz.   (When that is full wave rectified, the frequency is 100Hz.)

In one of my earlier posts I made a suggestion to them (Oliver & Valentin) to replace the Variac and load resistor with a phase control device (I even attached my circuit diagram and its description) but I don’t think they are interested to try.
[That would have reduced their losses in the electrolyzer circuit and MORE power would be available for the load(s).]

I have published the original drawings for my 120 cell unit on another Forum more than 3 years ago.  No-one seemed interested to duplicate it.

So it seems to be a waste of time and effort to publish them (unless requested).
To the best of my knowledge, George (see previous posts) seems to be the only one!

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Mark69 on February 16, 2011, 04:23:47 PM
@Les

Can you design a smaller unit which will make enough gas to run a home heating furnace, in place of natural gas?  I would definitely be interested in this and I am sure many others would be as well.  I think this unit would be a lot easier and cheaper to produce, plus not having to worry about modifying one's car, which can be a whole other issue altogether.  I am figuring a 100-120k BTU natural gas heater would be the average size for most people?? 
Thanks,
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system in Poland.:-)
Post by: Doctor No on February 16, 2011, 09:50:49 PM
Our polish HHO generator is ready. Altogether with DRJ200.11 OU CNF reactor will go on constant show, Bydgoszcz Polytechnics. It will be in special new room for ecological means of producing energy presented.  It is a big step for Mankind and small for my Party (or vice versa);-)     Heil! Heil! Heil!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on February 17, 2011, 08:28:43 AM
‘Mark69’
Your post gives me the impression that you don’t fully understand this subject.

It is not just a question of size or capacity of the electrolyzers. 
(HUGE industrial types exist and have been used for a long time.)

I honestly don’t have time to write lengthy technical explanations on the differences between running engines and furnaces (as you propose) on Hydroxy but suffice to say that engines can be ‘looped’ while furnaces cannot. 
(not to my knowledge at this point in time)

Please visit the thread below and read the post by ‘bolt’.
I find his explanations VERY GOOD and I agree with most of his statements.

Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #322 on: December 26, 2010, 11:26:42 AM » 

‘Doctor No’
Perhaps you haven’t discovered that this a WATER FUEL TECHNOLOGY thread!??
I have not seen ANY technical contribution from you, only EMPTY WORDS and attempts to further your political agenda!
May I suggest that you open your own thread for that purpose?

Best regards to all,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Doctor No on February 18, 2011, 08:42:54 PM
Why please my Dear had You and no others called (and came)? To write anything can today anybody on each page. But what really is important in material world of physics is experiment. So You and others have to wait, till it will be officially accepted through Council of University (or already is? I don^t know;-]), and properly installed. This for students they could have learn in XXI century of what could already be to use 100y. ago. Something like history, but in new clothes;-)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bourne on February 18, 2011, 08:58:35 PM
Why please my Dear had You and no others called (and came)? To write anything can today anybody on each page. But what really is important in material world of physics is experiment. So You and others have to wait, till it will be officially accepted through Council of University (or already is? I don^t know;-]), and properly installed. This for students they could have learn in XXI century of what could already be to use 100y. ago. Something like history, but in new clothes;-)

The above is what I call an 'orgy of words' !

Imagine a large group of naked words all writhing on a large leather topped desk, when you snap a picture it looks exactly like the above!  :P

Sorry @ everyone for the off topic post, but it has been a long cold day and that thought made me grin ;)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Doctor No on February 18, 2011, 09:14:54 PM
So You need please to check topic: DRJ200》100% CNF reactor.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on February 19, 2011, 01:02:24 AM
All,

I note that my “Running series cell electrolyzers on 50/60Hz AC power” article has only been downloaded 10 times.

Perhaps I should have pointed out that it contains important information which applies to ALL types of electrolyzer cells!
It also gives a brief explanation of the relationship between applied cell voltage versus current.

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on February 21, 2011, 12:02:45 AM
I find it VERY strange how one of the most exciting disclosures of recent times witnessing a gasoline engine running on water and generating 400w has the quietest thread? Maybe its a mental block or a spell cast over mankind where there are more thrills within under unity 1 watt TOYS or perhaps  Sports TV in HD has been good lately?

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Hope on February 21, 2011, 07:43:21 PM
Not all are sleeping.   
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: vrand on February 21, 2011, 09:51:13 PM
I find it VERY strange how one of the most exciting disclosures of recent times witnessing a gasoline engine running on water and generating 400w has the quietest thread? Maybe its a mental block or a spell cast over mankind where there are more thrills within under unity 1 watt TOYS or perhaps  Sports TV in HD has been good lately?


When can we buy one, or at least build one?

Cheers,
Mike



Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Doctor No on February 21, 2011, 10:36:12 PM
The answer for Bolt^s question is simple: i think that all (auch Angela Merken zu Spate) know already, that war (III WW i mean) is question of year or  16 months. Em i right:-)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: vrand on February 22, 2011, 06:25:19 PM

When can we buy one, or at least build one?

Cheers,
Mike

Were there plans, and instructions on how to build the cell, ever posted?

Any description on how the cell operates and what electrolyte used?

Any posted description on how to connect the cell to the genset?

Did I miss them being posted somewhere?

Showing pictures and videos is nice, but what is the point if no one can build one, or buy one?

Cheers,
Mike
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 25 kW=14.000 EUR
Post by: Doctor No on February 23, 2011, 08:42:33 PM
Our selfrunning HHO reactor with 25 kW output will have 13-14.000 EUR to cost. Maybe when somebody decides to end of winter, we will produce such standard unit. It can be easily to make bigger ones, but it is only question money. It is much cheaper as of traditional power station cost/1 kW. Here it should be under 600 EUR. No pollution, on fuel cost, small maintenance (check).    Model which will go on show will have about 1 kW power. But please don^t achieve any details:-);-]:-(;-);-]
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: cubalibre on February 23, 2011, 10:41:32 PM
@Mike

Almost all about building an ANTON drycell, operating data, tips and tricks, modification and data of the generator, waste spark elimination, ...
is open source presented by the inventors on the German forum.
Link: www.overunity.de
The information are placed in different threads, on topic and off topic, developing during months, therefore not easy to find. A few members are right on the way to replicate the selfrunner.
As well 2 Series of ANTON cells were built especially for the forum members, therefore about 40 users do have a high performance HHO drycell now.
Meanwhile woodpecker helps to build drycells of similar quality in his workshops.
regards
cubalibre
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: vrand on February 24, 2011, 04:49:43 AM
@Mike

Almost all about building an ANTON drycell, operating data, tips and tricks, modification and data of the generator, waste spark elimination, ...
is open source presented by the inventors on the German forum.
Link: www.overunity.de
The information are placed in different threads, on topic and off topic, developing during months, therefore not easy to find. A few members are right on the way to replicate the selfrunner.
As well 2 Series of ANTON cells were built especially for the forum members, therefore about 40 users do have a high performance HHO drycell now.
Meanwhile woodpecker helps to build drycells of similar quality in his workshops.
regards
cubalibre

Thank you cubalibre. :)

Great to hear that the German forum is still working on this very interesting technology.  I will visit the site and read up on it.

Maybe the inventors will publish a complete instructions on how to build an electric generator unit and give it to Free Energy Researcher, Patrick Kelly, for publication in English.

Here is an example of a Patrick Kelly instructions on how to build a Bob Boyce 101 plate series electrolyzer cell:

http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBoyce_Electrolizer_Plans/d9.pdf (http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBoyce_Electrolizer_Plans/d9.pdf)

Please let us know when the Anton cell, with electric generator set, will be for sale on the German forum.

Cheers,
Mike
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Hope on February 26, 2011, 09:49:38 PM
Concerning using a 2 Cycle generator set.   First the need for lubrication is lessened with the operating temperature being lessened from 600 F degrees to 200 F degrees.   It has been show with other HHO burning engines that the lubrication provided by the HO gases is enough to provide a competent level of fraction controlled lubrication.   Any other input here is needed and should of course be researched.     Our fuel reactor is built now and the mods have be made to connect it to a 10HP 4 stroke gen set.   The HHO papers of Bob Boyce suggest the use of a LPG carburetor (Excellent Thinking!)  then the load correction can operate normally.   (and make this device able control variable load engine like cars)  Processing the HHO through the Pantene/Naudin proof of concept fuel reactor will increase (as proven in France) our usable HHO another 30% . Of course the proof is not in hand (for me) until we build the TPU Bruce's (the mogul) designed and incorporate it with the fuel reactor.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: grizli on March 10, 2011, 02:24:14 PM
LES BANKI and all others (who can answer)

WHY gas engine can be looped using HHO, but when I burn HHO heat energy is inside Faraday "parameters". For example if I have 99% faraday cell heat energy from HHO burning is lower than eelectric energy needed for HHO generation.

BUT it is clearly shown by many inventors that amount of HHO needed to run gas engine is QUITE SMALL for example 3-6 LPM for home generator unit (like this man from Germany)

So whats going on inside gas engine when HHO is there?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on March 10, 2011, 03:00:47 PM
When HHO is ignited under great pressure like 150-200 PSI with ICE the power is greatly magnified. Like when you trap HHO in a container then ignite it the explosion almost takes your roof off! Anyone that tries to store any amount of HHO in containers at pressures over 7 PSI has just made a lethal weapon particularly where its raised to pressure like 100 PSI its highly unstable and will try at any time to convert all that energy back to water.

HHO recombination is an electron migration process where water is used as a Zero Point Energy proxy. So the water is not actually the fuel even though it will consume water. For all practical purpose who cares it uses water?  As HHO burns thru metals and raises to thousands of degrees the process has been measured as OU as electrons are accelerated at huge speeds form kinetic energy bombards the adjacent molecules in the material being heated and the temperature is raised several magnitudes hotter than the HHO flame itself.  The process is improved higher by high voltage spark at flame point as within Atomic Welding. High voltage spark adds abundance of free electrons.  See early 1900's books already recognised this process as OU.

For HHO heaters use rock ore materials with high crystal content not metal. As crystal excited by extreme heat the crystals are energised release more and more high speed electrons as piezoelectric effect into adjacent material heating >3000 degrees. The process goes OU. Special cut rock is then built up around the heat chamber to make a HHO core reactor. Then conventional fire bricks cover the stack to make a 300 degree IR radiant heater.  Several patents on this already.

Typically the HHO yields a COP 3 within ICE when all the other parameters have been perfected for engine timing etc.

So if you put 1000 watts into your cell you have 3000 watts of energy within the engine. Take off 1000 you need to give back to keep the cell going plus engine losses, friction and alternator conversion loss etc so total you need to give back 2000 watts of this energy. Now you have 1000 watts OU available to run a load. You can see by making engine super efficient you have 1000 watts here which can be recovered rather then giving it back as losses so as the process is refined you get over 1000 watts OU.

Now you can see without any PWM driving and special tuning already the process has a COP 3. By using PWM high frequency drives, ultrasonic water fog injection, resonance tuned alternator, the COP can easily exceed 5 even higher.

So if you perfected everything and used PWM etc reaching a COP of 10 within a car engine is not impossible in fact its very achievable as others have done this already.  You need a 5kW cell to get 50kW out the engine running only HHO and nothing else. Perfect for a small car.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: grizli on March 10, 2011, 05:27:38 PM
When HHO is ignited under great pressure like 150-200 PSI with ICE the power is greatly magnified. Like when you trap HHO in a container then ignite it the explosion almost takes your roof off! Anyone that tries to store any amount of HHO in containers at pressures over 7 PSI has just made a lethal weapon particularly where its raised to pressure like 100 PSI its highly unstable and will try at any time to convert all that energy back to water.


I know that some people completely safe  use HHO dry cell under 30 psi to remove foam and bubles and make better liquid flow(without buble saturation).
so it is claimed that its safe to operate cell at 30 psi level , which also increase HHO production. Remember Even Stanley Meyer had his cells under pressure.

If HHO COP is above 3 inside gas engine, why closed loops are announced so late ?

Classic gas engine has les than 30 % eff.. maybe HHO works cooler and eff is higher.

First page of this topic, original "german video" "self running generator in elevator" , do I see it clear , but it seems that HHO tube goes directly into engine WITHOUT any air? So this would man engine works at 100% HHO , am I wrong here? BB , Les Banki and all others claim 99% air and 1% hho is great ratio.

I have never seen that simple PWM without any "back emf effect" (inductor needed) can produce greater eff. PWM justs makes current to be at your own desire.

Question is HOW to get 3 X Faraday COP? You say that 3 COP is HHO inside gas engine. So we need another 3 COP above Faraday for cell itself.

Is there any 100% proved 100% every time successfull method for making HHO cell that can have 3X or more faraday ? (using pwm)

Now HHO heater?

Maybe just what is needed is that we heat some material above some point... I made experiemnt myself and heating water cointaner = NO OU., but maybe if we heat piece of metal that becomes glowing we get OU (process you described)
Do you have any more data about Rocks needed ?

What about HHO and Propane /butane mixture. Some people from Italy slaim that this way HHO small amount makes butane have 18 time more BTU !!! ?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on March 10, 2011, 06:14:58 PM
Grizli
quote:
Some people from Italy slaim that this way HHO small amount makes butane have 18 time more BTU !!! ?

------------------------
Can you start another thread for Home heating this way[above quote] or bolts way?

HOT TOPIC Needs to be "experimented"
Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 10, 2011, 06:55:26 PM
@all

It doesn't matter exactly HOW.   

HHO is inherently overunity.  It can be used to run a generator with a 99:1 air/fuel mix.  That is , 400-600W of HHO generation can run a 1kW generator. 

See the research and published articles of Les Banki.  The video that started this thread is real -- you just need to modify the generator to eliminate the waste spark and have variable firing relative to TDC (-40% to 40% TDC).

Basically you can use a Banki/Boyce style series electrolysis cell with about 2V per cell using unfiltered full-rectified mains to split the water, then the HHO output of this cell runs the generator.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 10, 2011, 06:59:18 PM
From my post at overunityresearch.com



http://pesn.com/2010/12/25/9501743_Anton_HHO_self-running_in_elevator/ (http://pesn.com/2010/12/25/9501743_Anton_HHO_self-running_in_elevator/)

Anyway , Both setups (the genset and the water-car) -- assuming both are legit, which I think they are -- are NOT using Stanley Meyer HV-type water splitting, nor Bob Boyce type resonant water splitting... yet still are producing 2-3L/min of high quality HHO. (This is from measurements).  If 3L-6L / min can run an engine under certain circumstances, we need to rethink our assumptions .  There are possibilities to why.... perhaps HHO is in a slightly different molecular configuration after splitting and recombination (perhaps it is some sort of linear, complex, or resonant ionic or hydrogen bonding of H2 and O2,  rather than the standard SP3 hybridized orbitals in source unsplit water, or the 2:1 molar ratio of diatomic gasses in the official knowledge)  .  It doesn't matter why if it works, assuming it does (as I have not tested personally, but am in contact with people who have).

For the electrolysis, the distance between plates should be 3mm.  Current density should be <30-40mA per cm^2 of the plates.  Voltage per cell should not exceed 2V.

A small 2.5HP genset can run on 3L/min hydroxy when of high quality and diluted with 99% air , 1% HHO.  The power consumption should be around 500-600W to split the water, but off a 2.5HP generator i think the output is more like 1kW.

 More info to come over the weekend, this is just a quick overview.  I haven't tested this method personally, but I will.

PS

That 3L-6L/min is from a 60cell /120cell series electroliser (fed from the 120VAC/240VAC mains through full-wave rectifier) is more than sufficient to run a small generator to close the loop.  HHO is burns 1000 times faster than gasoline -- it actually detonates.   

All that needs to be done apparently, to replicate these closed loop HHO setups, is to make modifications to cause the ignition spark to fire somewhere between -40% TDC and +40% TDC and remove the firing of the waste spark.   Thank you .

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=746.0 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=746.0)
---

Just ignore Farrah Day and MileHigh, they are paid disinformers.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: grizli on March 10, 2011, 07:34:59 PM
@all

It doesn't matter exactly HOW.   

HHO is inherently overunity.  It can be used to run a generator with a 99:1 air/fuel mix.  That is , 400-600W of HHO generation can run a 1kW generator. 

See the research and published articles of Les Banki.  The video that started this thread is real -- you just need to modify the generator to eliminate the waste spark and have variable firing relative to TDC (-40% to 40% TDC).

Basically you can use a Banki/Boyce style series electrolysis cell with about 2V per cell using unfiltered full-rectified mains to split the water, then the HHO output of this cell runs the generator.

Dry cell seems more safer, but BB cell makes above Faraday with just DC

What about claims that detonation destroys engine quickly ? Can anyone prove long term HHO run for small generator and engine condition?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 10, 2011, 08:11:24 PM
Well there is speculation that the HHO implodes first before it explodes, because one of Les Banki's collegues found that the most efficient ignition point was *before* TDC, which would suggest implosion before explosion. 

In other words, some people's experimental evidence suggests that the most efficient point of ignition is prior to TDC.

In terms of long term effects on the generator, I have no idea, but I'll be happy to speculate!

There are way less corrosive gases during HHO ignition (there is no corrosive SOx or NOx produced), *but*, that said, the pressures may exceed the limit of the cylinders.  So it might be trade off.

Personally , I don't care if it halves the life span of my generator, especially if I can have homebrew OU running off of water with no CO/CO2 output.  You don't even have to worry about the exhaust killing you.     

But sure it might reduce the lifespan.  Who knows?  The problem I'm having now is trying to decide what sort of generator will be cheapest and easiest to modify.  It'd be nice to have fully computer controlled ignition so I could do something like

bool bWasteSpark = false;
double bFiringAngle = -0.25 * PI;

but I know it won't be this easy.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on March 10, 2011, 08:26:59 PM
Quote
I know that some people completely safe  use HHO dry cell under 30 psi to remove foam and bubles and make better liquid flow(without buble saturation).
so it is claimed that its safe to operate cell at 30 psi level , which also increase HHO production. Remember Even Stanley Meyer had his cells under pressure.

Yes people have done this but its VERY dangerous. In explosion event the  power is magnitudes higher then low pressure HHO and nor is it necessary to run pressurised because the engine will take it to 160 PSI in any case in a controlled manor.

Quote
If HHO COP is above 3 inside gas engine, why closed loops are announced so late ?

Mainly becuase of the internet over the last 10 years has sent research into a race reaching more people to conduct their own experiments but the process of HHO can be used as an OU event has been known since the early 1900's.

Quote
Classic gas engine has les than 30 % eff.. maybe HHO works cooler and eff is higher.

Its true gasoline engine is very bad efficiency but here we are talking about HHO. However in a car engine used with gasoline with such massive losses usually accepted as the norm it takes very little HHO to increase from say efficiency  from 25% to 35%. Now you have a standard small 100Kw engine providing an additional 10kw of power that would otherwise be wasted as heat!  So many people only think of the energy going into the cell but its what happens to HHO after it leaves the cell leads to OU or at least much greater efficiently when used in car engine. It doesn't take much to realise if you have increased MPG by say 30% that is a LOT of KW's been saved that would have been wasted yet the cell is only perhaps 100 watts.

Quote
First page of this topic, original "german video" "self running generator in elevator" , do I see it clear , but it seems that HHO tube goes directly into engine WITHOUT any air? So this would man engine works at 100% HHO , am I wrong here? BB , Les Banki and all others claim 99% air and 1% hho is great ratio.

The 3/4" pipe going into the engine is basically "wide open throttle" with a 1/4" HHO mixer pipe.

Quote
I have never seen that simple PWM without any "back emf effect" (inductor needed) can produce greater eff. PWM justs makes current to be at your own desire.

PWM requires critical frequency tuning for pure resonance. Most PWM's don't allow for this or people just buy standard off the shelf devices and add them only for current control.


Quote
Question is HOW to get 3 X Faraday COP? You say that 3 COP is HHO inside gas engine. So we need another 3 COP above Faraday for cell itself


Is there any 100% proved 100% every time successfull method for making HHO cell that can have 3X or more faraday ? (using pwm)

COP 3 appears within the combustion chamber so its loop-able as seen in the video. In case be enhanced a lot more using tuned  PWM and ultrasonic charged water injection system. By passing the fogged water through two plates like a capacitor charged to 25Kv the droplets becomes charged and become part of the fuel process.

Quote
Now HHO heater?

Maybe just what is needed is that we heat some material above some point... I made experiemnt myself and heating water cointaner = NO OU., but maybe if we heat piece of metal that becomes glowing we get OU (process you described)
Do you have any more data about Rocks needed ?

You can not use metal as the metal itself will run with gain adding to more electrons creating runway heat condition even tungsten will burn within HHO so whatever metal you use will  become molten. Not so good for a heater.

I don't know what rocks work best only those with high crystal structure perhaps like quartz and stuff. Several patents on this technology including Korean company making HHO home heaters WAY over unity.

Quote
What about HHO and Propane /butane mixture. Some people from Italy slaim that this way HHO small amount makes butane have 18 time more BTU !!! ?

I believe that to be true for the same reason as gasoline engine butane is poor burning and small amount of HHO provides a massive increase in heat output.  Again if you already have a supply of fuel HHO will provide a huge boost. Use a butane space heater and inject HHO around the existing burner will send heat from a dull red glow to bright yellow like a jet engine.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on March 10, 2011, 08:43:00 PM
Dry cell seems more safer, but BB cell makes above Faraday with just DC

What about claims that detonation destroys engine quickly ? Can anyone prove long term HHO run for small generator and engine condition?

Many people have been running gensets for hundreds if not thousands of hours on pure HHO. Fact is the engine runs a lot colder. This was known fact from HHO use during the 2nd world war. Cars, tanks and all kinds of things ran on HHO mix so it not a new technology just suppressed from mainstream use.

 You can put your hand on the muffler its just warm.  Problems occur only when the timing has not been corrected properly to run on HHO. When car manufactures looked at hydrogen fuel powered cars they ran dozens of test lasting  years and were surprised the engines did not require any mechanical changes or coatings to support long life operation. Any stories you hear about blown pistons is because the timing was miles out to support proper HHO operation.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: haithar on March 10, 2011, 08:44:03 PM
Well there is speculation that the HHO implodes first before it explodes, because one of Les Banki's collegues found that the most efficient ignition point was *before* TDC, which would suggest implosion before explosion. 
The implosion thing has already been extensively tested, the main problem is that this forum is a mess and you cannot find all information in one place.

http://www.youtube.com/user/erzketzer1#p/u
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: grizli on March 10, 2011, 09:26:30 PM
I really cant fins and PWM that actually works. Only that has potential so far is BB pwm but it does not work every  time, people who got resonant action are few.

Ravi cell has potential. But its all far from required 30-80 LPM for smaller engine (car engine).

maybe best way is to use gas generator , battery charging and electric motor..

Sorry for going off topic :D

Bolt what is exactly the best PWM cell you have found out so far ?

You mean water steam made by piezzoelectric , that come through HV plates ..

I think its NOT about water resonance its about ELECTRIC series RLC circuit :D

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 10, 2011, 09:51:51 PM
The implosion thing has already been extensively tested, the main problem is that this forum is a mess and you cannot find all information in one place.

http://www.youtube.com/user/erzketzer1#p/u

So what's the answer... does it implode , or is it still a mystery why sometimes it's best to ignite prior to TDC?

That youtube channel looks good but it's all in German!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 10, 2011, 09:59:18 PM
I really cant fins and PWM that actually works. Only that has potential so far is BB pwm but it does not work every  time, people who got resonant action are few.

Ravi cell has potential. But its all far from required 30-80 LPM for smaller engine (car engine).

maybe best way is to use gas generator , battery charging and electric motor..

Sorry for going off topic :D

Bolt what is exactly the best PWM cell you have found out so far ?

You mean water steam made by piezzoelectric , that come through HV plates ..

I think its NOT about water resonance its about ELECTRIC series RLC circuit :D

@grizli

There's not just one 'correct' method to split water!

There is more than one method to get quality HHO, to run a generator. 

1) There is the Bob Boyce method , which requires VERY GOOD amplified square waves.  You can't just run a PWM into an IRF540 and expect it to work -- you need a good fast mosfet driver, high currents, and smoothing caps to get nice strong amplified square waves with fast rise and fall times.  Then you need to find the right fundamental frequency.

Some garbage fly-by-night PWM unit is not going to cut it -- you need quality for BB method, and it needs to be tuned.  You need the right amount of current density going into a large series cell.  The best way to do it is have a SINGLE clock (square wave) and then calculate f/2 and f/4 using a divider / shift register.  Then amplify those pulses and drive your toroidal transformer for mixing, ala Bob Boyce.  You want low duty cycle.  This is complicated, obviously.

2) Another method the the Stanley Meyer HV capacitance method.  This is different, and also complicated.  There are details if you examine his patents.

3) A third method is JUST run full-rectified DC mains into a series cell so you get ~2V per cell.  This is not as efficient as the other methods, but IT WILL RUN A GENERATOR OVERUNITY.

So there are lots of methods to get the HHO.  My point here is just to bring attention to the fact that there are a number of ways to do it, but many are INHERENTLY OVERUNITY. There is not just one correct way to get overunity HHO.  There are lots of ways.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: haithar on March 10, 2011, 10:00:14 PM
So what's the answer... does it implode , or is it still a mystery why sometimes it's best to ignite prior to TDC?

That youtube channel looks good but it's all in German!
Well the pictures speak for themself, its only the title which is german.
50% HHO + 50% Air:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCLIN2bnVYI
There seems to be an explosion, not really an implosion.

Pure HHO however will of course lower the pressure in a reaction chamber as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smugB3UNkh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgnD8xJy4Kk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOv97mCOhDw
Before the pressure gets lower there seems to be an explosion effect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soEwvDuPi3U

The last videos are from the Anton guys btw.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: grizli on March 10, 2011, 10:12:42 PM
@grizli

There's not just one 'correct' method to split water!

There is more than one method to get quality HHO, to run a generator. 

1) There is the Bob Boyce method , which requires VERY GOOD amplified square waves.  You can't just run a PWM into an IRF540 and expect it to work -- you need a good fast mosfet driver, high currents, and smoothing caps to get nice strong amplified square waves with fast rise and fall times.  Then you need to find the right fundamental frequency.

Some garbage fly-by-night PWM unit is not going to cut it -- you need quality for BB method, and it needs to be tuned.  You need the right amount of current density going into a large series cell.  The best way to do it is have a SINGLE clock (square wave) and then calculate f/2 and f/4 using a divider / shift register.  Then amplify those pulses and drive your toroidal transformer for mixing, ala Bob Boyce.  You want low duty cycle.  This is complicated, obviously.

2) Another method the the Stanley Meyer HV capacitance method.  This is different, and also complicated.  There are details if you examine his patents.

3) A third method is JUST run full-rectified DC mains into a series cell so you get ~2V per cell.  This is not as efficient as the other methods, but IT WILL RUN A GENERATOR OVERUNITY.

So there are lots of methods to get the HHO.  My point here is just to bring attention to the fact that there are a number of ways to do it, but many are INHERENTLY OVERUNITY. There is not just one correct way to get overunity HHO.  There are lots of ways.

Like I said people who bought BB circuit had problems finding resonance...
I am not new to this matter, and have read for years all that was available. 
And I think that is NOT about water resonance its circuit resonance , yes and maybe all together.
I do not trust patents that much, they are just genera information not enough for replication. Good example is Stanley Meyer !!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 10, 2011, 11:48:22 PM
Well the pictures speak for themself, its only the title which is german.
50% HHO + 50% Air:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCLIN2bnVYI
There seems to be an explosion, not really an implosion.

Pure HHO however will of course lower the pressure in a reaction chamber as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smugB3UNkh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgnD8xJy4Kk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOv97mCOhDw
Before the pressure gets lower there seems to be an explosion effect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soEwvDuPi3U

The last videos are from the Anton guys btw.

Okay thanks Haithar, these are great !  Perhaps there was another reason that it needed to ignite prior to TDC.    I think maybe the best way to get HHO working with a generator is just to have tunable firing point, and pick ignition point relative to TDC which gives best performance for a specific generator. 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 10, 2011, 11:52:50 PM
Like I said people who bought BB circuit had problems finding resonance...
I am not new to this matter, and have read for years all that was available. 
And I think that is NOT about water resonance its circuit resonance , yes and maybe all together.
I do not trust patents that much, they are just genera information not enough for replication. Good example is Stanley Meyer !!

I agree the circuit resonance is important too, and yes, I agree you can't replicate Stanley Meyer off the patents.   In terms of Bob Boyce, I think that anyone who is not using an actual Hex Controller might have problems replicating... (remember the Hex Controller had like 40 smoothing caps to get good square/PWM waves)...

I will be doing my own experiments in the next couple of months, building my own PWM controller, and I will compare BB PWM pulsed DC performance to rectified mains performance in a series cell.   Hopefully I can replicate BB setup -- I didn't say it was easy!  Only that it was possible...


Have you seen Les Banki's PWM circuit?  It uses a synchronized clock of f/2 and f/4 to make sure the frequencies match exactly.

Cheers,
Feynman
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on March 11, 2011, 12:18:57 AM
You don't have to make advanced PWM's to test this engine.  DC is good enough already COP 3 via ICE so if you tune everything correctly it will work from the get go. Even if you are very sloppy and use all of the COP 3 to keep the engine running with nothing left for a load it makes a nice OU water powered heater:)

While Les has covered all the dots and crossed the t's IMO is terribly complex for DIY replication. It looks like a 1980's TV circuit LOL

 You can do everything required using an AVR micro which only cost about 15 bucks. Then you add a hall sensor to pin 2, one power fet to pin 5 via a driver and a car ignition coil and you are good to go.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 01:54:54 AM
Quote
You don't have to make advanced PWM's to test this engine.
Agreed!

Quote
DC is good enough already COP 3 via ICE
Yup!


Quote
While Les has covered all the dots and crossed the t's IMO is terribly complex for DIY replication. It looks like a 1980's TV circuit LOL
Yea
Les's PWM circuit is awesome, especially the clock synchronization/amplification stages.  Yeah it's old school, but I'm gonna mod it for TPU type work, in combination with a microcontroller to replace the frequency generator chip.

Anyway, I use Arduinos normally; I looked it up and your 'AVR microcontroller' is Atmel, which is nice.

So where do you mount the hall sensor and its associated magnet to modify the generator to run on HHO?  How does the car ignition coil fit into the circuit?   Do you have schematics / source code for the HHO engine modification using the Atmel microcontroller?

Thanks,
Feynman
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on March 11, 2011, 03:02:34 AM
Put the hall almost anywhere to collect the pulses off the magnet that's already on the flywheel. It should be somewhere advanced so everything in software has delay control. Just remake simple fet trigger to car coil for new spark system and make everything factory fitted redundant. Basically as the German guys did on their machine.

My brother is doing the code he might open source it i don't know its up to him. He could even charge a small fee for it when its ready.  I can hack code and tweak stuff and do a few lines here and there but im not a code writer.  I just put the flow chart together for start init, set first pulse delay, find engine spark phase blank, set run flag, set angular degrees, set run speed, adjust pwm for gas control and i got emergency over speed control to adjust to the timing etc.  There is even a bit of Fuzzy Logic so the timing sets for best running and lowest HHO usage.

 Its a fair bit of coding but the idea is we have no mechanical modifications whatsoever from standard engine. There are no plastic timing cogs, no magnets bolted on inlet  valves the only thing to do is take off tank and carb and make a little bolt on air manifold/ HHO injector. So everything can go back to make this a virgin genset. Its planned to start off the mains directly via control stuff or using jump start batteries 24 volts to gas up the cell. It should only need 300 watts to get a start loop going.   Once the engine is running  pull the jump cables off. Hand pull or electric drill start will do either.

Its not running yet its taken since Christmas for parts procurement, money and time to do this but we are very close now.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on March 11, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
bolt
Seeing that this [HHO] is where you are spending your time and hard earned money [and I know from your posts you ain't rich]
That speaks "Volumes" to me!
What are you using for a cell?User Woodpecker hasn't been around here for a long time ,his cells I understand are quite
effective!


Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 04:46:20 PM
Put the hall almost anywhere to collect the pulses off the magnet that's already on the flywheel. It should be somewhere advanced so everything in software has delay control. Just remake simple fet trigger to car coil for new spark system and make everything factory fitted redundant. Basically as the German guys did on their machine.

My brother is doing the code he might open source it i don't know its up to him. He could even charge a small fee for it when its ready.  I can hack code and tweak stuff and do a few lines here and there but im not a code writer.  I just put the flow chart together for start init, set first pulse delay, find engine spark phase blank, set run flag, set angular degrees, set run speed, adjust pwm for gas control and i got emergency over speed control to adjust to the timing etc.  There is even a bit of Fuzzy Logic so the timing sets for best running and lowest HHO usage.

 Its a fair bit of coding but the idea is we have no mechanical modifications whatsoever from standard engine. There are no plastic timing cogs, no magnets bolted on inlet  valves the only thing to do is take off tank and carb and make a little bolt on air manifold/ HHO injector. So everything can go back to make this a virgin genset. Its planned to start off the mains directly via control stuff or using jump start batteries 24 volts to gas up the cell. It should only need 300 watts to get a start loop going.   Once the engine is running  pull the jump cables off. Hand pull or electric drill start will do either.

Its not running yet its taken since Christmas for parts procurement, money and time to do this but we are very close now.

Bolt... that would be cool if you brother open sourced the microcontroller code.  I generally open source my microcontroller projects -- but I'm lucky enough to have a day job.

The idea sounds great.  I am sure it will work. Have you decided on a particular genset , or do you think any brand and type will work?

Thanks,
Feynman
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: grizli on March 12, 2011, 12:20:32 AM
You don't have to make advanced PWM's to test this engine.  DC is good enough already COP 3 via ICE so if you tune everything correctly it will work from the get go. Even if you are very sloppy and use all of the COP 3 to keep the engine running with nothing left for a load it makes a nice OU water powered heater:)

While Les has covered all the dots and crossed the t's IMO is terribly complex for DIY replication. It looks like a 1980's TV circuit LOL

 You can do everything required using an AVR micro which only cost about 15 bucks. Then you add a hall sensor to pin 2, one power fet to pin 5 via a driver and a car ignition coil and you are good to go.

all his logi circuits could stack one one PIC... :D
or even better FPGA :D
simple logic scheme is easer to program using vhdl...
but fpga boards are expensive :(
But we need logic scheme of his scheme, does he provide ?

dont have much XP with mictrocontrolers :(
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on March 12, 2011, 04:01:31 AM
Bolt... that would be cool if you brother open sourced the microcontroller code.  I generally open source my microcontroller projects -- but I'm lucky enough to have a day job.

The idea sounds great.  I am sure it will work. Have you decided on a particular genset , or do you think any brand and type will work?

Thanks,
Feynman

As i said i don't know what he intends to do with the software.  Bear in mind we all need some project $'s income otherwise nothing happens. So many people tell me to build stuff and stop talking so much LOL If i had the money i would build everything i thought had a chance of being useful.

Even Bob Boyce has proprietary software which he will kindly sell you for a small fortune with an NDA. No one says you have to use software you can make your own 555's which is not too hard, or buy Les B's boards professional made might cost 150 bucks who knows?   If it was to be sold it would be a very modest fee and ship the AVR chip but im guessing.

The reason for going HHO is simple. I have a new Genset 2.2Kw 5HP 4 stroke gas engine. I read and learnt enough over the years to see HHO really has some magic to it. When i see the Xmas video i thought what the heck this i KNOW can work. Most important i have a  money back guarantee cos if it doesn't i can sell the genset and the HHO cell and recover most of the outlay. OR keep the stuff, put the cell on the car and keep the genset and run it on anything from Butane, diesel, LPG, HHO mix, gasoline, nat gas etc for emergency use so unlike other projects its not a dead loss. Whatever happens even if i can not loop it the HHO will make it very efficient HHO/Mix

By the way the cell is 21 plate 316L DRYCELL capable of 4-5 LPM on DC approx 1000 watts and 6-7 LPM with HF PWM drive. I run it on reverse osmosis water <4 ppm and just 1 or 2 granules of KOH on HV DC so its like 0.0000000001% KOH :)

1000 watts will give me 3000 watts within the ICE. Roughly half that 1500-2000 watts will go back as losses and running the cell should leave 1000 watts OU so for the size engine i will be roughly double the German looper IF it works!

I had a LOT of problems with flashbacks, still sorting this out. Things work ok at 1-3 LPM but over that it goes back to the bubbler and its so fking loud i gone deaf and my nerves are shot. LOL
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: retrod on March 12, 2011, 05:01:00 PM
Bolt, are you planning on raising the compression ratio on your motor?
 
On the Woodpecker video a flashback device is very close to the motor inlet and the HHO is piped straight in.
http://www.youtube.com/user/woodpecker1311#p/a/u/1/kTFVW8w8bjI
Also on that video when the HHO is removed the engine continues to run and surge. I suspect there is still some hydrocarbon vapors remaining?

On the Scarecrow videos from 2008 a 3.5 hp generator is shown running on HHO with many flashback booms during start up. On the final and postmortem videos he mentions 6 LPM @ 1000 watts was required for idle and 9 LPM @ 2000 watts was required to run at full speed with a small load. He did not make any timing or compression changes.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SmartScarecrow#p/c/C547458B2E914426/1/APpGvVWsZZ8

I hope you are wearing ear protection in your tests. From watching the available videos it looks like starting the engine on gasoline to get the engine temperature up quickly could make for a smoother transition.

Best of luck,
RD

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on March 12, 2011, 05:16:21 PM
Quote
Bolt, are you planning on raising the compression ratio on your motor?

No its unnecessary  and risk of engine damage.
 
Quote
On the Woodpecker video a flashback device is very close to the motor inlet and the HHO is piped straight in.
http://www.youtube.com/user/woodpecker1311#p/a/u/1/kTFVW8w8bjI
Also on that video when the HHO is removed the engine continues to run and surge. I suspect there is still some hydrocarbon vapors remaining?

You wont get rid of carbon vapours its a 4 stroke engine and therefore it is lubricated by oil and will show very tiny amounts in exhaust BUT its not the source of fuel.

Quote
On the Scarecrow videos from 2008 a 3.5 hp generator is shown running on HHO with many flashback booms during start up. On the final and postmortem videos he mentions 6 LPM @ 1000 watts was required for idle and 9 LPM @ 2000 watts was required to run at full speed with a small load. He did not make any timing or compression changes.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SmartScarecrow#p/c/C547458B2E914426/1/APpGvVWsZZ8

I hope you are wearing ear protection in your tests. From watching the available videos it looks like starting the engine on gasoline to get the engine temperature up quickly could make for a smoother transition.

Best of luck,
RD

if you don't change the timing the engine runs like a pig, back fires, can bend valves and can burn hole in piston. Plus it requires a HUGE amount of gas just to barely run. When properly tuned and blank spark sorted all these issues vanish. Thanks for your input!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: grizli on March 12, 2011, 11:55:03 PM
As i said i don't know what he intends to do with the software.  Bear in mind we all need some project $'s income otherwise nothing happens. So many people tell me to build stuff and stop talking so much LOL If i had the money i would build everything i thought had a chance of being useful.

Even Bob Boyce has proprietary software which he will kindly sell you for a small fortune with an NDA. No one says you have to use software you can make your own 555's which is not too hard, or buy Les B's boards professional made might cost 150 bucks who knows?   If it was to be sold it would be a very modest fee and ship the AVR chip but im guessing.

The reason for going HHO is simple. I have a new Genset 2.2Kw 5HP 4 stroke gas engine. I read and learnt enough over the years to see HHO really has some magic to it. When i see the Xmas video i thought what the heck this i KNOW can work. Most important i have a  money back guarantee cos if it doesn't i can sell the genset and the HHO cell and recover most of the outlay. OR keep the stuff, put the cell on the car and keep the genset and run it on anything from Butane, diesel, LPG, HHO mix, gasoline, nat gas etc for emergency use so unlike other projects its not a dead loss. Whatever happens even if i can not loop it the HHO will make it very efficient HHO/Mix

By the way the cell is 21 plate 316L DRYCELL capable of 4-5 LPM on DC approx 1000 watts and 6-7 LPM with HF PWM drive. I run it on reverse osmosis water <4 ppm and just 1 or 2 granules of KOH on HV DC so its like 0.0000000001% KOH :)

1000 watts will give me 3000 watts within the ICE. Roughly half that 1500-2000 watts will go back as losses and running the cell should leave 1000 watts OU so for the size engine i will be roughly double the German looper IF it works!

I had a LOT of problems with flashbacks, still sorting this out. Things work ok at 1-3 LPM but over that it goes back to the bubbler and its so fking loud i gone deaf and my nerves are shot. LOL

why complicated logic.. for ignition you need simple logic and gearing 2:1

Making complicated 3 phase pwm drivers still havent see any youtube prove of that resonant action...


Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Feynman on March 13, 2011, 05:49:55 AM
That's because it's really difficult to get the resonant PWM working ... it's based on creating scalar waves, and requires frequency mixing in a toroid...  lots of places things can go wrong....

Why bother with the trouble though, especially if you can run generator COP=3 with just a standard series cell with a standard 1phase PWM unit or rectified AC mains  ;)

Replicating Boyce TPU is another question entirely
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on March 13, 2011, 06:07:43 PM
True this is not anything fancy like a bob Boyce system. HHO  production tweaks can be done later but already the system has a COP 3 with basic DC control of the cell.

The logic here is just like a car engine ECU which controls the start sequence and sets the correct timing. While it can be done using gears and cogs its not very elegant and still has no control over engine speed so might as well do everything at the same time using a processor. Once you have proper control over gas production and the timing you got proper control over the engine.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: retrod on March 13, 2011, 08:45:52 PM
Bolt, earlier you made mention of using RO water in your electrolyzer. Is there an advantage over using RO water v.s. distilled?

Thx,

RD
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on March 14, 2011, 02:20:24 AM
Not really but some places getting access to distilled water is hard to find or very expensive. I'm in the UK and most pharmacies  either don't stock it or wont  sell more than a very small amount to make up their own medications for dispensing. I never seen it in super markets unlike the US or Caribbean which sell it everywhere.  So RO offers a very high purity of water in some cases better than badly produced distilled and its of course a lot cheaper.

You will find RO water leaves the cell running MUCH cleaner with far less by products of city water which contain dozens of trace metals and chlorine, lime etc. This creates a brew and leads to brown crap forming on the cells.  Never use those little bottles of spring mountain drinking water in most cases the water quality is MUCH worse than city water unless its been produced through an RO method and has no chlorine and re-mineralisation. This goes for drinking it too!

 The standard 5 gallon water tanks used in much of the world -US, South Americas etc is in effect RO water and mostly high purity but make sure it hasn't been chlorinated and re-mineralised. 

For HV operation high purity is essential so that cell operates in high resistance DC but rather in inductance mode as a capacitor.  But even for  normal DC use it will make your cell last a long longer without frothing with crap. BTW good RO water is perfect for use as lead battery water.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: retrod on March 14, 2011, 04:21:51 AM
Interesting, thanks for explaining the RO water. Your right, distilled water is available nearly everywhere in the states. The local (city) well water available to me is high in Radium. Before the city switched service to lake water deep breathing of hot shower steam was not recommended. Maybe it would be beneficial in an electrolyzer if demineralized ?

RD
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MasterPlaster on March 14, 2011, 11:23:36 AM
@bolt re distilled water.

You can buy deionized water from places where they sell auto spares in 5 liter containers.
It is used for topping up batteries.

Also, the 99p stores sells a smaller bottle but they call it "water for ironing!".
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: asupawat on March 28, 2011, 09:00:29 PM
 :) Cool!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on March 30, 2011, 11:04:09 AM
All,

I decided to hold off the release of my ‘autorpm’ circuit diagram, description AND pcb layout, UNTIL I can clear up (or at least try!) the confusion about my BASIC ignition/injection design!!

You see, all the private feed back I am receiving indicates that there is virtually not a single individual who fully understands how my ignition/injection design works, despite its almost unbelievable simplicity!!
Perhaps I failed to explain it properly in several pages of detailed circuit description!

No, this is NOT just another, detailed, lengthy circuit description!!
It is only a BRIEF technical explanation of the PRINCIPLE behind that design and I don’t go into circuit details (on the component level) at all!

It is certainly true that “a picture is worth a thousand words”.
Therefore, I have put considerable effort into this new, brief explanation, supported by oscilloscope screen images.

Before I go on, just a few words about those images.
The original images are in ‘bitmap’ (BMP) and are very nice but since this Forum does not accept that format, I had to convert them to another format.
Further, a couple of things needs to be pointed out in case some of you examine those images and readings in DETAIL!

Here I have used my latest oscilloscope, the ‘ScreenScope’, (only 6 months old) which was designed and made here in Australia. 
Unfortunately, however, it still has some minor “bugs” (software) which I reported to the designer and he is working on a ‘fix’ now.   
One of those “bugs” is that the ‘Auto measure’ Frequency reading on ‘Channel 1’ is WRONG while its graticule (grid) reading is CORRECT.
(Channel 2’s ‘Auto measure’ Frequency reading is CORRECT and so is its graticule.)

Otherwise, the images I present here are good enough for the purpose of this explanation.

OK.
Here we go:
In the image ‘sawto2’ you see a saw tooth.
That saw tooth is created from 2 pulses from the Hall switch.
The time period between ANY two subsequent pulses from the Hall switch IS the total time of a complete WORK cycle of the engine.

Repeat: THAT SAW TOOTH REPRESENTS THE ENTIRE WORK CYCLE OF THE
ENGINE!!

As the engine speed changes, the time period (frequency) of the saw tooth changes accordingly.

Now to image ‘ignpu’:
Here you see the saw tooth again, PLUS a narrow (100µs) IGNITION trigger pulse.
(Channel 2, green trace)

So how was/is this trigger pulse created?
By using the EXACT same principle as a PWM!
You feed that saw tooth into one input of a comparator while supplying an ADJUSTABLE voltage to its other input and BINGO, you are “in business”!
OK.
I use an additional monostable IC as well, which can be edge triggered on the rising (or falling) input pulse.  With that, I create the EXACT pulse length I want.

Now, this IGNITION trigger pulse can be moved to ANY point on the slope!
THIS IS HOW THE IGNITION POSITION IS ADJUSTED!

I told you it is almost unbelievably simple!!
Once you ‘grasp’ it, I think you will agree with that statement!

In the ‘inject’ image, you see the SAME saw tooth is fed to another comparator but the process is EXACTLY the same as for the ignition pulse creation.

The only difference is the pulse WIDTH.
The pulse POSITION is changed by one control (potentiometer) and another control changes the pulse WIDTH which is the actual SPEED control of the engine!

Since all my oscilloscopes (4) are only dual trace, I can’t show you the real life situation where the IGNITION and INJECTION pulses are super imposed on the same saw tooth.

All images were recorded from the bread board set up so just ignore the noise on the saw tooth.  (By the way, the noise DOES NOT interfere with circuit operation.) 

That straight (but noisy!) slope of the saw tooth is my “software”, if you like!!
Calculating the voltage to the comparator in order to place a pulse at ANY point on the slope takes me perhaps 3 minutes.
Compare THAT to the HUNDREDS OF HOURS of programming and ‘de-bugging’ time for a microprocessor! 
(NOT my figures!  It came from expert programmers with over 20 years of experience!)

With the help of these images, perhaps everyone can now see AND understand that the PRINCIPLE used in this design GUARANTEES that both the ignition and injection pulses are ALWAYS at the same DEGREE of engine rotation, REGARDLESS of RPM! 

Well, so much for the arguments of 555 time delays and divide by two flip-flops, etc.!
Enough said!

Best regards,
Les Banki

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: markdansie on March 30, 2011, 02:25:24 PM
Thanks Les
Keep up the good work
Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: norco on March 31, 2011, 08:37:09 AM
so good gay to you all
I am very impress with the HHO, and I did build one, but as son as I go over 10A I get very small white bubbles in my HHO dry cel.
I only us potassium hydroxide (KOH) with distal water.

Q1: how can I avoid the bubbles?
Q2: How can i increase my production and be more efficacy?

Thank you
 :D
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on April 04, 2011, 08:04:07 AM
All,

In my last post I showed the ignition/injection pulses and explained HOW they are created.

So, what’s next?
How does all that relate to an engine?
More importantly, how is it APPLIED to an engine??

THAT is the subject of this post!

Remember one of my earlier attachments, a file named “engine timing 2.pdf”?
(4 stroke engine timing cycle)
If not, I suggest you go back to my post (reply # 166) it was attached to, save it and PRINT it!
Now put that drawing on your desk and turn it about 30 degrees anti-clockwise.
(So that the line with the markings of 270 – 0 – 90 – 180 – 270 degrees which was horizontal before, now is on an angle, RISING to the right!

That rising line you now see is the SAME as the ‘slope’ of the saw tooth in those oscilloscope images in my last post!

Just for the readers of this Forum (yes, both of you! ;D) I have made an additional drawing which, together with the previous one, may lead to better understanding of this subject!


For those who are prepared to “get their hands dirty”, I can offer some general suggestions on how to set up this ignition/injection system on your engine.

Make sure you understand and follow these instructions closely!
If you don’t, you will not only end up with a non-working system but also run a real risk of doing DAMAGE to your engine!

(I like to draw your attention to a post made by ‘bolt’ earlier in this thread: 
“if you don't change the timing the engine runs like a pig, back fires, can bend valves and can burn hole in piston. Plus it requires a HUGE amount of gas just to barely run. When properly tuned and blank spark sorted all these issues vanish.”)

By the way, a properly set up fuel injection virtually ELIMINATES back fires!

That does NOT mean that you should operate your set-up without a flash back arrestor!

IMO, you should NEVER, EVER operate ANY kind of system running on HHO without an appropriate flash back arrestor!
It is the “life insurance” of your electrolyzer and perhaps your entire system!

OK.
First, REMOVE the fuel tank, the carburetor (only if you want to use injection) and the ignition module (which most likely includes the coil) PERMANENTLY and the valve cover AND the spark plug TEMPORARILY!

*  There are two reasons for removing the spark plug:
1.  It will be MUCH easier to turn the crank shaft by hand as there is
     NO compression when the cylinder is OPEN!
2.  It is easier to determine when the piston is at TDC and BDC.
     For BDC you may have to use a ‘stick’, (through the plug hole) placing one end
     of it against the top of the piston.
*  After you have removed the valve cover, identify the EXHAUST valve and its rocker
    arm. 
    Since this arm is most likely made of steel, the magnet will stick to it.     
    Once you have determined the TYPE, SIZE and the POSITION of your magnet and it 
    operates the Hall switch properly, it can be glued to the arm, using HIGH temperature
    Epoxy resin.

Note: we may (or may not) get away with using ‘Neo’ magnets.
It will depend on how hot (or cool) the engine will run with ONLY HHO.
‘Neo’ (Neodymium-Iron-Boron) magnets start losing their magnetism above 150°C!
We may need to use Samarium-Cobalt or even ‘Ceramic’ magnets (which can “take the heath” but are not as strong as ‘Neo’s).

*  Make a mounting bracket for the tiny Hall switch circuit board and attach the
    assembly TEMPORARILY to the engine block in such a way that you can easily
    ADJUST its position.
*  Apply 12V DC (with the correct polarity!) to the Hall switch circuit.
    In the absence of a magnetic field, the LED will turn ON at power-up.
    (This may only apply to the Melexis Hall switch I use.)
*  Now turn the crank shaft by hand and watch the movement of the rocker
    arm with the magnet AND watch the indicator LED!
*  The physical POSITION of the piston where the LED turns OFF, corresponds with the
    vertical “retrace” line at the START of the slope you see in the saw tooth waveform!

The purpose of the process I just described is to find (in degrees of camshaft rotation) the physical position of the piston when the pulse from the Hall switch arrives!

From there on, from this single pulse, our electronics is first going to derive not just one but TWO different pulses (ignition and injection) and then place them EXACTLY where they need to be!

(The details on how this is done is explained in the circuit description.)

A few words about the new drawing:
The large RED dots on the slope indicate the TDC and BDC positions of the piston.
The 4 BLUE dots are half-way position marks (45°) in each of the 4 cycles.
The BLACK dots mark each 10° of CAM shaft rotation.
Dotted lines (GREEN and PURPLE) indicate the limits of the injection and ignition pulse positions.
BLACK dotted lines show that the Hall switch pulse length is almost the same as the opening time of the exhaust valve.

The RED and BLUE horizontal lines intersecting the 30° slope of the saw tooth are the voltages applied to the ignition and injection comparators, respectively.
Both pulse POSITIONS on the slope are adjusted by varying these voltages!

THE POINTS WHERE THESE LINES INTERSECT THE SLOPE INDICATE THE PISTON’S POSITION IN THEIR RESPECTIVE CYCLES!   

More to come…..

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on April 06, 2011, 10:23:06 AM
'norco'

Check out the web site below.
It reveals what causes foaming and the methods to get rid of it.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HHO-FOAM-STOPPER-ANTI-FOAM-HYDROGEN-GENERATOR-FIX-/120692248968?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c19d19188

As for your second question, don't expect any answers since you have not supplied ANY information about your cell.
The information you seek is "out there" but I am afraid you will have to do some study!

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on April 11, 2011, 09:01:43 AM
Re-filling electrolyzers

Why do I bring up this subject?
Some people may not consider re-filling – manual or automatic - to be a ‘problem’.

It depends on your definition of ‘problem’.

Over the years, I have seen very few researchers/experimenters attempting re-fill of their electrolyzers, particularly series cells, without first shutting down their entire system!

I guess that was/is due to the technical difficulties it presents.

OK. 
Here is the scenario:
You finally got a “self running” (looped) generator running on water (HHO)!
While the volume of water it consumes does not seem great at first glance, there is a BIG difference between a demonstration lasting just a few minutes (or even an hour) and a  CONTINUOUS, 24/7 operation!

Here are some practical figures to consider:

While “calculations” seem to vary by a large margin (depending on who’s “figures” you are looking at), the fact is that if your electrolyzer is reasonably “right”, you will get at least 2000 litres of HHO from 1 litre of water.

Suppose your (LARGE) generator needs 10 litres of HHO per minute.
That is 600 litres/hour.
So, 1 litre of water will run that engine for 3.33 hours.

EVERY 24 hours it will consume 7.2 litres of water (14400 litres of HHO).
 (A smaller generator will use a lot less.)

Since the HHO used in an engine re-combines into water, you can collect it from the exhaust pipe and re-use it.

But before you pour it back into your “fuel tank”, I suggest you expose it to sunlight for a few hours to RE-ENERGIZE it!
No, its NOT a ‘fairy tale’ story, so don’t knock it!
The effect is real.

In order to get the HHO to enter your engine, it needs to be under pressure.
Actual pressure depends on which method you employ to feed the gas from the  electrolyzer to the engine.
It should be obvious that since the electrolyzer is under pressure, you cannot just open a valve and pour water into it!
Thus, MANUAL filling is out of the question while the system is operating!

Who would be willing (or should I say crazy enough!?) to STOP the engine EVERY TIME more water is needed, purge the electrolyzer (let out the gas), fill water and restart everything???

AUTOMATIC filling is possible if using a one way valve (check valve) in the water feed line with a pump which can deliver HIGHER pressure than that of the gas in the cell, PLUS overcome the “cracking pressure” of the check valve.
(Some pumps may have built-in check valves.) 

My series cell electrolyzer re-fill is a two stage process.
How it is done is described in my “Re-filling series cell systems” article.

Best regards,
Les Banki






Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on April 16, 2011, 09:08:26 AM
All,

Attached is my article “Re-filling series cell systems” and a simple “end view” drawing of the set-up.
Note that it only shows the concept. 
(I have deliberately left out other details in order to avoid confusion.)

The reason I attach most of my writings as ‘Word’ documents is that I am unhappy with the restricted text formatting of this Forum. 
(IMO, without full text formatting, EMPHASIS cannot be properly expressed!)

Further, I am disappointed that THIS Forum allows all kinds of absolute rubbish to be posted, which, IMO, is DELIBERATELY done to CONTINUOUSLY push more important topics/threads OFF the main page!

Once a thread is OFF the main page, it is very difficult to find!
I can only imagine what new (visiting) readers think of all this.

Anyway, it seems to me there is not much interest in this topic/thread.

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: CompuTutor on April 17, 2011, 03:37:38 AM
Once a thread is OFF the main page, it is very difficult to find!
I can only imagine what new (visiting) readers think of all this.

..."EMPHASIS cannot be properly expressed"

Well,
you CAN look at the last 500 posts,
if you desire to drill down further actually.
(My "Emphasis" intended as sarcastic humor towards OP...)

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?update (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?update)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Sprocket on April 18, 2011, 12:51:54 AM
.....
Further, I am disappointed that THIS Forum allows all kinds of absolute rubbish to be posted, which, IMO, is DELIBERATELY done to CONTINUOUSLY push more important topics/threads OFF the main page!

Once a thread is OFF the main page, it is very difficult to find!
I can only imagine what new (visiting) readers think of all this.

Anyway, it seems to me there is not much interest in this topic/thread.

Best regards,
Les Banki

There seems to be a deliberate policy of re-churning 'exotic' topics in this forum.  At best it's merely a ploy to generate more traffic, but having just read someone petitioning Stephan to close a thread because sufficient proof of OU hasn't been forthcoming - jeez, if that's the case, every single thread would need to be closed! - it could also be something more sinister.

One question if I may, your intriguing tit-bit above regarding the 2000L of HHO per litre of water  - far far less water used than I would have thought - got me thinking again about cells under vacuum.  As you are pressurising the HHO anyway, would it be at all feasible to evacuate the gas from the cell with a vacuum pump, feeing the gas sucked out into your gas storage, while also increasing the rate of gas production due to the partial vacuum?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on April 20, 2011, 04:18:57 AM


One question if I may, your intriguing tit-bit above regarding the 2000L of HHO per litre of water  - far far less water used than I would have thought - got me thinking again about cells under vacuum.  As you are pressurising the HHO anyway, would it be at all feasible to evacuate the gas from the cell with a vacuum pump, feeing the gas sucked out into your gas storage, while also increasing the rate of gas production due to the partial vacuum?

‘Sprocket’ & ALL,

The “2000L of HHO per litre of water” figure is rather conservative.
It applies to electrolysis using DC current and the evolved gases are di-atomic. (H2 + O2)
If, and I say IF, a system can create ALL the gas in mono-atomic form, that figure would DOUBLE! 
(And YES, it is possible, using RESONANCE.)

So, depending on the set-up, the real figure will be somewhere in between those figures!

About vacuum:
Personally, I have NOT tried this method but I know some experimenters have attempted it with dubious results. 
But, over the years it all faded into obscurity, just like most other things in this  “free energy” chase!

For the set-up you are suggesting, you need to consider the practical side:
1.  Quality vacuum pumps are NOT cheap!
2.  Energy required by the pump.
3.  Extra (pressure) container is needed!
4.  How much (if any) increase in gas production can be gained?
5.  Is it worth the extra expense and complexity?

Perhaps I should have pointed out the OBVIOUS advantages of my set-up earlier but since you raised the vacuum issue, here they are:

1.  The electrolyzer CREATES its own pressure, automatically.  NO extra energy needed. 
2.  The electrolyzer also serves as PRESSURE VESSEL and gas STORAGE TANK!

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Plasmagorilla on May 08, 2011, 06:34:41 PM
Hey guys I have an affordable plasma ignition system listed on ebay. Just search gorilla plasma ignition on ebay. I am looking for hho motor builders to test my system. It is way more affordable than commercial overpriced systems from aquapulser ignition etc. I build them myself.  Here is a video...
http://www.youtube.com/awatch?v=peO1afaBX5E

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on May 10, 2011, 06:17:41 AM
Hey guys I have an affordable plasma ignition system listed on ebay. Just search gorilla plasma ignition on ebay. I am looking for hho motor builders to test my system. It is way more affordable than commercial overpriced systems from aquapulser ignition etc. I build them myself.  Here is a video...
http://www.youtube.com/awatch?v=peO1afaBX5E

Thanks guys.

No offense but your post indicates (at least to me) that you are NOT familiar with the characteristics of HHO gas.
One of the characteristics is that it requires only a VERY, VERY low energy spark to ignite/detonate!
Thus, HIGH energy sparks, particularly PLASMA sparks, are a HUGE over-kill and thus are completely un-necessary!

In other words, this is the wrong thread to promote your plasma  ignition system.

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Plasmagorilla on May 12, 2011, 12:49:18 AM
No offense but your post indicates (at least to me) that you are NOT familiar with the characteristics of HHO gas.
One of the characteristics is that it requires only a VERY, VERY low energy spark to ignite/detonate!
Thus, HIGH energy sparks, particularly PLASMA sparks, are a HUGE over-kill and thus are completely un-necessary!

In other words, this is the wrong thread to promote your plasma  ignition system.

Best regards,
Les Banki

Thanks for your reply. Yes I do know that if the motor is running on pure HHO there is no need for any high energy plasma ignition, however there are those who are misting water or injecting water mist to supplement power and lower the amount of HHO required. For such motors high energy plasma ignition will be useful.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on May 12, 2011, 06:16:16 AM
Thanks for your reply. Yes I do know that if the motor is running on pure HHO there is no need for any high energy plasma ignition, however there are those who are misting water or injecting water mist to supplement power and lower the amount of HHO required. For such motors high energy plasma ignition will be useful.

Yes, with water vapor injection (or water alone, NO HHO!!), I agree with your statement about the need for plasma ignition.

In 2005, a mechanic under the ‘screen name’ “s1r9a9m9”, had a car running on water.
NOT with HHO and water vapor, ONLY WATER!

Are you familiar with that story?

If not, I encourage you to download the 58 page document:
“Car_that_runs_on_tap_water_Plasma_Spark.pdf” written/compiled by Patrick Kelly.
(For some reason this document is no longer on his web site, nor is it included in his latest e-book.)
I have these documents but due to their large size, I cannot attach them here.
(Just do a Google search.  There are many sites offering downloads.)

Personally, I would not complicate things further with water vapor injection, for the following reason(s):
1.  Some people on this site are already complaining about the complexity of my
     published designs.
2.  Extra cost.

Besides, my set-up will produce WAY more additional power than the generator requires to run! 
I know some don’t believe this but so be it. 
I could not care less!

Just watch the video presented at the start of this thread.
I would say that generator used by Oliver & Valentin is rated at no more than 1800W.
I have a brand new generator sitting here….waiting!...rated at 9kW (8kW continuous)
Folks, we are talking several kW of excess power!
Get used to it.
Enough said.  (for now)

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: KateDaring52 on July 15, 2011, 10:44:38 AM

Well, great work! You have helped me to improve my knowledge about this field. Thank you so much for sharing.


__________________
Watch Horrible Bosses Online Free (http://moviesonlinewatch.net/)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on July 17, 2011, 11:22:09 AM
Hello ‘KateDaring52’

I see it was your first post.

It was also the first post since my last one here over two months ago!
(That just shows the level of interest for this subject!)

Thank you for the feedback.  I am glad you got something out of my ‘ravings’.

All,

Some of you probably realize that the HEART of this (and I dare say most “free energy”) projects is the CONTROL ELECTRONICS.
(That is why I have put such an ENORMOUS effort and time into this, using my knowledge and skills.)

Perhaps you would like to know that since my last post I have COMPLETED the remaining electronic control designs for this project:

1.  A new phase control power supply with 2.4kW capacity for the 240V, 120 cell electrolyzer, complete with current limiter and unidirectional feedback.

2.  Optical level sensors & re-fill circuits for the electrolyzer and main tank.

3.  A very simple circuit which (with the help of the remote control supplied with the electric start generator) will start the engine automatically when the preset gas pressure is reached.

All that remains now is to ‘tidy up’ a couple of pcb layouts, order boards, assemble & connect the numerous circuits (modules) together and connect the generator!

I know that some readers here will (again!) complain about the complexity of it all!
(Particularly the ‘autorpm’ circuit.  It has the highest component count and its detailed circuit description is 10 pages!)

But, have you heard anyone complaining about the complexity of , say, a computer? 
Or a TV?
No-one cares as long as they WORK properly!
(But they sure are cursed when they malfunction!)

Generally, before complaining about “complexity”, one needs to consider the PERFORMANCE of such circuit(s).

OK. 
For the first time, here is a brief summary of the performance you can expect of this
set-up:

First, CORRECTLY set-up and ADJUST:

1.   Low voltage power supply outputs
2.   IGNITION TIMING
3.   Electrolyzer current limit
4.   Water/electrolyte refill levels
5.   HHO gas PRESSURE
6.   Engine IDLE speed
7.   Microphone sensitivity (detecting engine start)
8.   Time to reach correct RPM 
9.   Generator output (switching) FREQUENCY (50Hz)
10.  Automatic BATTERY CHARGER minimum & maximum limits

After that the only thing you need to do is:

Turn the generator key to the ON position, apply start-up power (from mains or battery/inverter) and stand back!

The sequence of events are as follows:

With 240V AC power applied to the entire system, the electrolyzer starts producing gas.
When the pressure reaches the pre-set level, the generator starts automatically.
As “engine has started” signal is detected, RPM starts to increase gradually over the adjusted  time period.
The generator’s output voltage/frequency is now increasing. 
When its FREQUENCY reaches 50Hz (at approx. 240V), a change-over POWER RELAY is used to disconnect the start-up supply and connect power to the system from the output of the generator.

In short, the generator is now powering EVERYTHING!!

All this is happening AUTOMATICALLY, without further intervention.

Wishful thinking?
Not at all!
Every stage is already working EXACTLY as intended.

Over the next few days I will publish the circuit diagrams, pcb layouts and circuit descriptions for the above mentioned designs, PLUS the ‘autorpm’ circuit which has been ‘ready’ for about 4 months.

Remember, you don’t have to understand all the technical details of the circuit descriptions to duplicate my work.
 
You could say that I have done all the work for you.  Just pay close attention to the details, try to avoid making mistakes and you will be fine.

Best regards,
Les Banki

Ps.  The 'autorpm' circuit is rather LARGE!
It needs 2 A3 sheets!
PCB layout will follow in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bolt on July 17, 2011, 03:44:59 PM
http://sites.google.com/site/silverfreeenergy/home

Les have no fear you are not alone! I am busy working on this also and currently i have mine working on propane 10% and  90% HHO so its cost a couple of cents a Kw to run. Not looped yet but might need more HHO. I have gone the software route i tell you roughly how it works. Hall device on flywheel sees every rev and fires to start on 100% LPG. After 900 rpm software tries to DIV 2 then checks if the engine still running. It can start on a can of plumber  propane. This overcomes starting and all the issues with HHO and no need for a kick start PSU. Once the software finds the correct phase it sets a flag in software and stores to memory so even if the engine stops and started again it knows what phase the engine is in if the CPU is still powered up. At 1000 rpm HHO turns on and currently i manually have to change the timing delayed for HHO. I am using 2 off 500 watt PC Supplies. I been writing and learning software to make Auto timing seek to run on any fuel from natgas, LPG, propane, methane, HHO or and gas mix with HHO.

At 2900 rpm the software starts to control the HHO by switching the PSU's and tries to stable around 3000 rpm. (mine is 50hz)  Control of HHO gives me load speed control but as emergency over speed at 3200 rpm the spark is suppressed instantly. This should halt a sudden speed up when a load is disconnected before gas loop has time to adjust. Later i have other things in mind like 1500 rpm economy mode. Will run at 25hz and much lower power for light loads like battery charging and of course is very much quieter and  less stress on the engine.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Doctor No on July 19, 2011, 12:11:56 PM
This topic as well others FE topic are practicaly dead, even when energy prices climb up. This all shows only how people passive are. When all comes to end, all what thay can afford yourself will be some winking.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on July 19, 2011, 11:52:54 PM
Les, Bolt, Thank you both for continuing your works.
you are both my hero's.
you both have done such a great deal of work thanks is just a sample of what is necessary for an adequate sense of gratitude. :)

God Speed
With help like yours I will someday be a real h2ocommuter

Zane
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 4 kW electrical output
Post by: Doctor No on July 21, 2011, 05:43:53 PM
Our system for home use with 3-4 kW electrical output will cost under 5.000 EUR (some 7.000 todays dollars).
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on July 22, 2011, 10:44:04 AM
All,

As promised, attached is the pcb layout (in PDF only) for the ‘autorpm’.

Also attached is the ‘autostart’ circuit diagram, description and pcb layout files
(in PDF only)
Strangely, the ‘autostart’ circuit turned out to be the simplest part of the ECU!

While designing the ‘autorpm’ (a few months ago), it occurred to me that the engine could be made to start automatically.
But I ‘shelved’ the idea, not wishing to complicate things more than necessary.
Then, about two weeks ago, suddenly the idea was back again in my mind in all its “simplicity” and a couple of days later the circuit was ready!
So here it is.

Next up (in a few days) is the 240V phase control power supply with 2.4kW capacity.

Please note:
Pcb manufacturers need the original files which contain ALL the information they need. 
I simply don’t know how to attach or up-load the PFW (Protel For Windows) files, so I cannot attach them since this Forum does not accept the format (.pcb extension)
(Further, you  also need the PFW software to open these files.)

If any of you need the original PFW files, just PM me and I will email them to you.

Bolt,
I visited your web site and looked at what you are doing.
I hope you don’t mind if I make some comments.
They are NOT meant to criticize.
After all, most Forums are (or should be!) not only for “entertainment” but for exchange of ideas, sharing research results and learning.

Your approach differs in several ways from mine.
(That is what we call “designer’s choice”, I suppose.)
IMHO, you are complicating things considerably by trying to include hydrocarbon fuels.
You will find (just like I have) that this field (designing ECUs) is NOT for the faint hearted!
Usually, the only ones designing ECUs are design engineers working for engine manufacturers.

I certainly don’t envy you the task trying to do it the way you described it!
Good luck.  You will need it!

If your intention is to have a looped HydrOxy ONLY generator, I don’t see why you would bother with ANY hydrocarbon fuel.
In this, we have a MAJOR difference in our approach.

Since day one, I had/have this attitude:
WATER or NOTHING!

You can call me a FANATIC when it comes to this.
I just don’t want to see a single drop of ANY hydrocarbon fuel anywhere in or near the engine!!
Period!
Not even for starting! 
I much prefer a battery/inverter combination for starting.
That way, I will NOT depend on the ‘oil boys’.

All,

The other issue I wish to comment on applies to everyone.
NO exceptions.
It is about the METHOD of producing gas from water.

But first, I like to point out that most of the time we have used (and still use) the WRONG NAME for the gases derived from water.
No, I am NOT “nit-picking” or “splitting hairs”.
Does the name matter?
As you will see shortly, it does.

I suggest we clean up this mess.
I have already taken the first step by replacing ‘HHO’ with HydrOxy in all my articles.
Why?
Because the gas my set-up produces is NOT pure mono-atomic H+H+O but a combination of di-atomic and mono-atomic, H2 + O2 + H + O.

As everyone knows, water is: H2O

When split with DC current electrolysis, the gas is: H2 + O2
(Note that the devolved gases are in their di-atomic state ONLY.)
This gas has the LOWEST energy level. 
(About ¼ (25%) of the pure mono-atomic H+H+O.)

With PULSED DC electrolysis, we get “Brown’s Gas” or HydrOxy,
H2 + O2 + H + O, (di-atomic plus some mono-atomic gas.)
Its energy level varies with the ratio of di-atomic/mono-atomic gases but usually will be about twice (2X) the energy level of the H2 + O2 gas which is created with DC current. 

With RESONANCE (NOT electrolysis!), we should get ‘pure’ HHO (H+H+O).
It has the HIGHEST energy level. 
About 4X more than H2 + O2 (using DC current)

The importance of this should be obvious.

If not, let me illustrate it with a practical example which everyone can understand.

Let’s look at two (2) experimenters: “A” and “B”
Their set-ups are IDENTICAL, with ONE exception. 
Their electrolyzers (and the power supplies powering them) are DIFFERENT.
But they produce the SAME volume of gas.
 
Here comes the “weird” bit.

Experimenter “A” runs his generator 100% on WATER. 
PLUS other load.

Experimenter “B” needs to ADD hydrocarbon fuel.  He does not have ‘enough’ gas!

But, I repeat, they have the SAME VOLUME of gas!

So what is different?

“B” is using a LOW VOLTAGE, HIGH CURRENT DC POWER SUPPLY to power his electrolyzer.
Further, he has just a few cells in series, then, groups of these are in parallel.
That combination produces only H2 and O2 , di-atomic (molecular) gases!

“A” has a large number of cells in SERIES and uses HIGH VOLTAGE PULSED DC 
power supply.
His set-up produces H2 + O2 + H + O (di-atomic plus some mono-atomic gas).

From my short article titled “Running series cell electrolyzers on 50/60 Hz AC power”, here is a quote:

“It needs to be pointed out that in order to make QUALITY gas (HHO, Hydroxy, Brown’s Gas, etc.), PULSING is necessary.
George Wiseman has also pointed this out in his “Brown’s Gas Book Two” which he published many years ago.

Quote (from page 18):
“Power supply considerations

If we apply straight DC current to the electrolyzer, we find the oxygen and hydrogen devolving to their di-atomic state.  We get NO Brown’s Gas.

The electricity MUST be pulsed to an electrolyzer to produce Brown’s Gas; 120 cps is sufficient to produce Brown’s Gas, even 100 cps will work; so regular wall cycles will work.”
End quote.”

So, the ‘bottom line’ is: the HIGHER the mono-atomic (H+H+O) portion of the gas, the LESS the engine will need to run.

I wish to stress, once again, this is NOT a “fairy tale” story.
Over the years, several experimenters have found it to be correct.

There are two main requirements for running engines on water ONLY:
1.  Quality gas (a portion of it MUST be mono-atomic, H+H+O)
2.  Engine management

If these are ignored (or compromised), it is most unlikely that you will succeed in running engines 100% on water.
Instead, you will end up with a fancy “booster”.


This also explains why so few in the past have succeeded using water as the only fuel.

OK.
If you have problems accepting the above explanation, I suggest you watch the video with Oliver & Valentin again.  Closely.

Pay attention to their cell AND its power supply on the trolley.
What do you see??
A LARGE capacity VARIAC (AC mains supply).
On its moving arm you see a heath sink (probably for the rectifier power diodes).
Next to the VARIAC is what looks like a power resistor bar (current limiter?).
Even without knowing all the details of their set-up, we can safely conclude that it is an un-filtered HV power supply, PULSING at 100Hz.  (twice the mains frequency)

IMO, that is one of the 3 reasons why they have a looped, running system with excess power.
The second is their SERIES cell.  (Anton cell)
The third is IGNITION TIMING.
A bit crude but it works.

Best regards,
Les Banki





Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: gyulasun on July 22, 2011, 07:46:54 PM

...
Please note:
Pcb manufacturers need the original files which contain ALL the information they need. 
I simply don’t know how to attach or up-load the PFW (Protel For Windows) files, so I cannot attach them since this Forum does not accept the format (.pcb extension)
(Further, you  also need the PFW software to open these files.)

.....

Hi Les,

Thank you for all the info.

 I did some search on the web and found ExpressPCB, a free PCB layout software (has got schematic editor too) and its output file has a format with  .pcb extension. Hopefully it can open the Protel pcb file too (it has to, lol).  Here is a link: http://www.expresspcb.com/index.htm

On this website: http://www.file-extensions.org/  when you do a search for file extension pcb it gives 11 records, see here and scroll down:
http://www.file-extensions.org/search/?searchstring=pcb&searchtype=2 

I suggest zipping the pcb file(s) and then you can upload them here, files with zip extensions are allowed.  The shareware Total Commander file manager has a built-in zip/unzip facility, there are other zip file managers of course like WinZip etc.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on July 27, 2011, 07:20:14 AM
Hi Gyula,

While I thank you for your efforts looking into how to attach PFW files, considering the LOW level of interest here in not just my work but the topic of ‘water fuel’ in general, I will leave things as they are.

It is NOT worth my time and effort to publish the original PFW files when no-one needs them!

By the way, I am fully aware of the PCB software you mentioned as well as several others. 
I even have some of them but I tell you, I would be CRAZY to switch from Protel to ANY of them!
The reason is that in my experience (and other’s!), particularly the early versions (1. & 2) of  PROTEL is superior to the others, even the most ‘modern’ ones!

The ENTIRE Protel (PFW) schematic & pcb software is less than 10MB!!! 
No, that is NOT a misprint!
(It was supplied on just 6 Floppy Discs! 
As you know the capacity of a 3.5” Floppy is only 1.44MB)

“THEY” (whoever they are!) just can’t write software like that any more!

Further, do you have any idea about the size of these Protel pcb files?
Just have a look at my ‘autorpm’ pcb layout, which is the LARGEST in this project.
File size:  40KB!
Again, it is NOT a misprint. 
It is 40KB.

Now, compare that to the PDF conversion (which has FAR from all the info):  258KB!

If I understand you correctly, you suggest compressing (Zip) the files only for the sake of attaching them here.
Personally, I dislike working with compressed files.
Enough said.

All,

By checking the number of downloads of files I have attached, I can see that some of you who downloaded them are NOT paying proper attention!
For example:  I indicated that the ‘autorpm’ circuit is LARGE and it requires 2 sheets of A3.
So, ‘autorpm1’ AND ‘autorpm2’ makes up the COMPLETE “autorpm” circuit.

I see that while the ‘autorpm1’ was downloaded 50 times, ‘autorpm2’ was downloaded only 42 times!
That means that some of you DO NOT HAVE the complete circuit!

OK.
I have attached the 2.4kW HV phase control power supply circuit diagram, description and the two (2) pcb layouts (PDF).
The reason for two boards is isolation.
HV (AC and DC) on one board and the low voltage control circuit on the other.

Note that the isolation is performed by a 20A Hall effect current sensor.  (see description)

Next up is the optical (IR) water/electrolyte level sensors and re-fill electronics!

Have fun!

Best regards,
Les Banki




Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on August 01, 2011, 05:38:50 AM
All,

First, here is a brief summary of what I wrote elsewhere about engine management:

It may not be obvious to the average person but engine management was NEVER  “simple” for ANY fuel!

Generally, complexity is hidden from view by the ‘black box’ approach.

Average replacement cost of a “modern” car ECU is around $1200 to $1500!!

This alone indicates two things:
1.  ECUs ARE fairly complex
2.  BIG TIME rip off!

And yet, in car engines, piston(s) position information is DIRECTLY available from the CAM shaft.
For small engines, there is no such “luxury”!
The cam shaft is (usually) NOT accessible from the outside of the engine!

For CORRECT operation, we NEED a signal from the CAM shaft, NOT the crank shaft!
(Despite all arguments to the contrary!)

This fact makes our task a bit more complicated.

On the other hand, our ‘new’, FAST burning fuel (HydrOxy) makes ignition point setting a LOT simpler than for ANY other fuel!

Here is a quote from my “Ignition system for small engines 2” article:

“It needs to be pointed out that the ignition system for HydrOxy ONLY (not just a booster) will be very different from ignition systems for hydrocarbon fuels.
It will be significantly simpler.

There will be NO “speed mapping”, NO “load mapping”, NO retard/advance change with engine RPM,  NO rich/lean mixture setting, NO cold start setting, NO “knock sensor”, NO fuel/air temperature sensor, NO Oxygen sensor, etc., etc.,
(“modern” engines are full of all that rubbish!)
There will be NO need for high energy sparks, multiple sparks, etc.
Further, there will be NO such thing as UNBURNED fuel remaining in the cylinders!!”
End quote.

Don’t forget that my ignition control design is based on my CDI module.

Keep in mind that its power requirement is only 6W (maximum) at 6000RPM!
(At lower RPM, it is less.  See further details in the circuit description.)
It is triggered by my ignition control circuit.

If you intend using only some sections of my ECU design, that is OK, EXCEPT trying to use an old, power hungry (60 – 120W) Kettering type ignition with a power transistor switch, you are on your own!
(In that case, you have to not only ADD your own driver interphase to drive your switch but also have to provide an additional power supply capable of supplying 5-10A, just to create ignition sparks!  This would also require a MUCH larger power transformer.)

My CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) design has been published more than once since its release about 3 years ago but NOT in this thread.
That means most of you will not have it.

Since this Forum does not provide ‘project folders’ (to my knowledge), my attached files are ‘all over the place’ and rather difficult to find!  (so I am told)
I am now looking for other options/Forum(s) to publish everything in ONE place.

In the mean time I will continue to attach files here.

The test oscillator (4046 VCO test osc.sch) is for setting up & adjusting the ignition/injection control circuits.
IMO, a CDI system is essential for this kind of projects.
So here it is, all attached.

Best regards,
Les Banki








 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: X_MAN_00 on August 16, 2011, 06:49:49 AM
Thanks a lot. I had to share it again.
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Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: advancedynamics on August 24, 2011, 10:54:32 AM
Oliver and Valention, 2 users from the OverUnity.de forum, showing their selfrunning HHO system powering a 400 Watt incandescent lamp for the first time in public....Belt Conveyors (http://advancedynamics.net/belt-conveyors.html)

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Mark69 on August 24, 2011, 02:18:02 PM
any new info yet?  Les, Bolt, any updates????  Keep up the great work!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on August 30, 2011, 02:04:57 AM
‘Mark69’ (& others),

New info?
Yes and no.
By now you should realize that my ECU design is COMPLETE and has been for some time.

The last part was/is the water/electrolyte level sensor & pump driver circuits which are actually not mounted inside the ECU box but are attached to the electrolyzer.

So what are you guys actually waiting for??

All of you could have duplicated my work as I was publishing the details of the design.
Or perhaps you are all waiting for yet another “proof of concept”??
Wasn’t the video by Oliver & Valentin convincing enough?
How many more are needed before some of you will wake up and realize that this technology is REAL?

Am I being too harsh?
I don’t think so.

Just have a good look at this Forum and THIS thread.
What do you see?

I must admit there is SOME interest, judging by the number of downloads of my files.
But how many are actually working on this kind of project is hard to say.
If there are some, they are silent.
In a way, I don’t blame them.
Just re-read the first few pages of this thread and you will see what I mean.

Never mind.

I have joined the newly created (and properly moderated) ‘watercarTWO’ Forum, in order to publish all my project files/details in ONE place, without interference, abuse or negativity.
I have a 100MB Folder there which is being ‘populated’ rapidly.
I post there as well.

OK.
Here is some info which may interest some of you.
I have attached a picture of the generator which is used for this set-up, before all the un-needed parts were ‘stripped’ from it!

It is a Ducar LX9000.
It has a 420cc, 4-stroke engine
Its output is rated at 8kW peak, 7kW continuous.

It has electric & pull start.
It was supplied with 2 remote controls AND a 9AH starter battery!
(When using the remote control, the starter engages for 3 seconds.)

At the time we un-packed the generator a few months ago, we connected the wires to the start battery and fitted the cover.
Cranked it once with the key, then with the remote control – was working fine.
When I tried it again about 3 weeks ago, I found the battery dead as the proverbial
“door nail”!
It measured only 2.86V!
Yet, the ignition key was in the OFF position all that time.

In other words, something has totally drained the battery despite the key being in the OFF position.
I managed to fully revive that battery with my HV capacitive battery charger.
Then, with the ignition key in the OFF position, I connected the battery again with a current meter in series.
I measured 8mA.
No wonder the poor battery was completely drained!

I suspect that other generator brands/models may have the same problem.
My advise is that if you get an electric start generator, don’t connect the battery until you are ready to use it!
I can only assume that the battery is charged when the generator is running so it won’t go flat during normal use.
Still, I consider this to be a design ‘flaw’.
So, again, be aware of this.

I also have two LARGE, 12V, 150Ah batteries for running a 1700W inverter for starting the system.

For the ignition/injection control circuit, I needed to know the number of revolutions during cranking, so I performed some “dry run” tests.  (cranking ONLY, NO fuel)

By the way, the starter motor is rated at 12V – 0.4kW  (~34A current)
Using the remote control to crank the engine with the supplied 9AH battery, I measured a peak (in-rush) current of 126A!
The number of crank shaft revolutions were 24 for the 3 seconds cranking.

With one of the large 150AH batteries, I got 28 revolutions for the 3 seconds of cranking.
Peak (in-rush) current was 196A!!
(You can read about WHY the number of revolutions are important in my
“Circuit description for Electronic Ignition V.5”)

Best regards,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on August 30, 2011, 02:42:28 AM
Hi Les,
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on September 18, 2011, 08:04:10 AM
All,

The 2.4kW phase control power supply for the electrolyzer is usually placed in the ECU.

(There it is supplied by the low voltage supply rails which supply ALL circuits.
Further, it is additionally controlled by the pressure regulator circuit and/or the timer.)

However, I have just completed a “stand alone” version (with its own power supply of ±12V and +5V for the control circuits) for my friend George (now 84!), to drive his 240V, 120 cell electrolyzer.

While testing it, I discovered that if the load is already connected when power is applied, there is NO regulation, which means FULL power is applied!

(Without regulation, the power drawn by the electrolyzer might be FAR higher than desired and would at least result in blown fuses!)

The reason for the lack of regulation at power-up is that the power supply lines are not yet stable, thus the circuit cannot be expected to work properly!

ONE way to fix this is to delay the Triac control pulses for 1–2 seconds at power-up.
This will allow the power supply to stabilize.

There are many ways to introduce such a delay.
I choose a small MOSFET (2N7000) for the clamping of the pulses, controlled by an RC network with the correct time constant for the delay.
It also functions as a fast ON/OFF switch, controlled by the pressure regulator circuit and/or the timer.
(See circuit description for further details.)

I have now replaced the circuit diagram, description and the pcb layout with the edited versions. 
If you have downloaded the earlier versions, please replace them with the updated ones.

Further, to give you an idea of what is ‘involved’, I have attached two pictures.

Note that the ‘Vero board’ was necessary since this one-off, “stand alone” unit needs its own low voltage power supplies (with transformer).

On the front panel, the meter indicates actual load current which is set by the potentiometer. 
(Please refer to the circuit description how to set this current.)

The switch is NOT a load switch but an electronic ON/OFF control.

Best regards,
Les Banki



Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: sosoandu on September 19, 2011, 04:44:15 PM
good and cool pic
Title: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts Think different Video
Post by: helmut on October 08, 2011, 11:28:34 PM
Hello
Harti presented the Think different Video from Oliver and Valentin at december of 2010

Today i like to present you one of some Videos of a developers meeting
held on the 30.09.11 in a small rural city in south Germany.

It was the first Event of this kind.

The landlord there owens a Energy station to produce Elektricity and heat.
He tryed many times to feed his Engine (1600ccm Ford Kent ) with HHO .
But he did not succseed many times , because of to less volume of hho.

Then the idea was born.
Lets come together and produce HHO to run the engine.

After about 6 weeks of preperation we meet in Wurzbach.

Friday evening we first come together to enjoy a barbecue and introduce eachother. We finnished early in the morning the other Day.

The Landlord and his wife are realy nice and very friendly people.
He managed  that we became  Brothers in Work.

Saturday morning we meet for Brekfast and than we brought our Hardware to the backside of the House where the Generator was located.
It took us some hours to supply all the Equipment with electricity and connect the 8 elektrolysers to a joint.

Finally we run the Engine with HHO only.
But in all the euphorie and happyness we did not take all mesures.

The big Meter to mesure the Gasoutput was not able to handle the volume. So we are not realy shure about the quantity of HHO that was used.
Later we run the Engine via a bottle Hydrogene pure to have a different sight. The Meter shows a consume of about 10-12 Liters H pure.

BUT WE DID IT.

We run a 1600ccm with HHO  and Hydrogene only.

The next Meeting will come. We will open the door to a new dimension.

Then we run the Engine in a cloesed loop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOg_JQGPGEk

enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAllG6vUiPc

enjoy

helmut

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on October 09, 2011, 12:56:14 AM
Helmut
Wonderful wonderfuL
What a great day!!
Here is some more good news
Core has replicated peter Davey heater open Source Here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7096-peter-davey-heater-4.html#post161435

Your Friend
Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: helmut on October 09, 2011, 10:37:47 PM
Hi Chet my friend

Thanks for your reply

Good Link  hopefully he is able to improve his device to comarable results to mr. Davey.

helmut
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: stardish on October 19, 2011, 06:36:22 PM
First timer here and thank you for such an informative site !

Would like to convert my 13hp Honda 8,750 watt he set to run on Hydroxy .

Where should I start ? Big question but really appreciate your guidance .

thanks
don paul
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Mark69 on November 29, 2011, 05:24:15 PM
Hi Chet, I dont know if has been brought up on the other site (regarding the heater), but when I took physics, we had an experiment in which we took a tuning fork and struck it over a column of water.  By changing the distance of the water from the fork, we were able to either: cancel the sound wave of the tuning fork, or, which I think may really help this work, was to actually DOUBLE the sound wave.  If Core can set a bell or bells at a certain distance, he may actually be able to double the output.  Just a thought if you could pass on to him.

Mark
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Cloxxki on November 29, 2011, 11:10:59 PM
What are these fine Germans doing to get to loop their systems? Are they making better gas, or more of it? What's the trick? In the vids it looks like all they do is build a basic cell and loop it. I'll admit that I have not spent many hours reading up on it, but perhaps the most important message is HOW to do it, rather than look at middle aged men making steam and getting an engine to stuttter. All due respect, really, but what's the clue, or is it a secret?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Fester on January 05, 2012, 05:32:51 PM
Hi, new user here to Overunity. I have been a follower of the Tesla turbine crowd for a while now. I wanted to post out of curiosity. Specifically as to why an ICE engine is being used and not a more efficient turbine engine? Tesla turbine would really excite me to see it run off HHO self sustained. Im an ICE guy by nature, dont get me wrong. The purr of a Flathead Ford v8 does more for me than my girlfriend. :P But with this , I also realize the complete inefficiency of ICE engines.
Also as a gearhead, a turbine run off the exhaust to increase the cylinder pressure or to turn another generator, would be a valuable upgrade.

None the less this is a very impressive machine to say the least!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on January 12, 2012, 01:10:07 AM

I don't think there is a secret in the answer I believe it is simply get-er-done attitude.  perseverance type drive.  We all could use a little help from our neighbors and friends who share like interests.  Truly I can hardly find anyone who has my same interests.  if our government continues to confiscate all my money it will not matter that I have friends who want to help with a project. the it just becomes a mater of food on the table or in a homeless shelter. that is not where I want to live.  I do think these are the issues though.
Zane



What are these fine Germans doing to get to loop their systems? Are they making better gas, or more of it? What's the trick? In the vids it looks like all they do is build a basic cell and loop it. I'll admit that I have not spent many hours reading up on it, but perhaps the most important message is HOW to do it, rather than look at middle aged men making steam and getting an engine to stuttter. All due respect, really, but what's the clue, or is it a secret?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 13, 2014, 05:53:18 AM
 Hi guys,

 
Instead of creating yet another thread (there are WAY too many already) on this Forum, I decided to post in THIS thread, which DIED 2 ½ years ago!!

(As you can see, the last post was in January 2012.)

 
To me that indicates a TOTAL lack of interest in this technology.

Despite that, I have decided to give those who might still be interested, one last chance!

 
However, I do everything differently nowadays.
 
Thus, I have no intention to “clutter” this Forum with lengthy posts, lots of photos and attachments.
 
Here is the link to my 'Dropbox' Folder and its 'checksum' for my latest WFGP (Water Fueled Generator Project):
 http://goo.gl/ZgF7aS (http://goo.gl/ZgF7aS)

#md5#LB_WFGP-Feb 2014.zip#2014.03.05@10.51:16

5240ca6b8faaef973486f41ccf661875
*LB_WFGP-Feb 2014.zip



The information is COMPLETE with circuit diagrams, detailed circuit descriptions and pcb layouts in the original Protel (PFW) format for board manufacturing.


It should be OBVIOUS that this is NOT a “proof of concept” design but a set-up intended for 24/7 unattended operation.
(The only actions required by the user will be: Start/Stop, general engine maintenance and filling the “fuel tank” with pure water!)


Shortly, there will be a second Dropbox link published for project updates (mainly photos) as the work progresses (rapidly).
(Note that this project is in its final stages with only the making of the electrolyzer and engine modifications remaining.)


Just to give you an idea of the MAGNITUDE of this project:

The generator for this particular project is rated 7kw, continuous.

Power to run itself will be around 2 – 2.4kW, leaving about 4 – 5 kW for powering load.


You can download (and save) the Folder from the above link.
As always, you have two choices:
You can ACCEPT the info, or you can REJECT it.

NOTE that there are NO restrictions or conditions for using this info.

Over the years you have no doubt noticed that I am NOT in the habit of making “claims”.
I supply the necessary information and ENCOURAGE people to try things for themselves!

IF you are not willing to “get your hands dirty” and “risk” a few dollars, then this information is NOT for you so PLEASE move on!

Cheers,
Les Banki  
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: SeaMonkey on June 13, 2014, 08:57:46 AM
You're very generous Les - many thanks.  It is good to hear from
you again.  It's been a few years.

Enthusiasm may have waned a bit with many who are pursuing
this endeavor.  Some of us are temporarily without any means
of experimentation for one reason or another but hopefully this
will improve in the near future.

Revival of interest is long overdue!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: h2ocommuter on June 13, 2014, 06:59:52 PM
Thanks Les,


I'm glad you have continued on this journey, steadfast and sure.....   We are all glad you have updated the content.  This thread is still in my few but highly valuable resources that I keep the documentation about.


You again have given your best and I accept the this jewel as a treasure. 


Zane
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 14, 2014, 06:25:10 AM
SeaMonkey & Zane,

Thanks for your kind words, guys.

I have discovered LONG ago that the act of GIVING is far more pleasurable than receiving.
I wish everyone would discover this.

Besides, the ideas we all have is NOT really ours.
They originate from the Creator.

We are all ONE and we SERVE each other.
That is how everything works.


As for experimentation, well, that is no longer essential in this case.

Most of you who read this will probably agree that mankind is out of time.

We simply can't afford to wait another 5-10 years for someone to create some better methods.
And even if that happened, it would most likely be patented, as usual!

I have already pointed out that since we have a working method right now, there is NO NEED for fancy electronics for electrolysis.
Just have a close look at my 'ss2kweps' - which stands for: "super simple 2kW electrolysis power supply"

Anyone would be hard pressed to make a simpler one!


Cheers,

Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: ramset on June 14, 2014, 08:19:14 AM
Les
This world needs more of you and your example .


you inspire .....and at this moment your inspiration is very very timely.


Thank you


Chet
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Marshallin on June 14, 2014, 06:00:49 PM
I found quite cheap Einhell STE 2000 4-stroke generator on auction.

From your experience guys, Is it suitable for rebuilding? How much gas(LPM) i will need to run this old generator? its 196 cm3 ...

Thank you.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: wistiti on June 14, 2014, 06:33:14 PM
Thank you very much Les!
I cant wait to see how the elctrolizer and motor modification are made...
Would some one point me a free wai to see the pbc files please?
Have a good day to all! :)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: SolarLab on June 14, 2014, 08:23:43 PM
Hi Les;

Thanks for the project data dump. As always, excellent stuff - it seems there's forever something more I can learn!

BTW, I'm having difficulty opening your "Water (HHO) driven generator project.doc" file.
Might be this computer however since it's my ancient online relic from the ole' Waterfuelcell.org (before it locked - lurker dave) days.

When the threads dwindle I don't think its the interest that dries up so much as it is that the technology becomes do-able to many of the more technically capable so they simply quit posting and "go off and do it;" [like you and I did] which only leaves the lurkers and lamers, who soon loose interest and move on to the next hot topic. I've seen this pattern time and again over the years.

Meyer's "water fuel cell" technology development is still very much alive and well; at least here in Florida but the main focus relates to the Boyce type cell. It's now commercialized to a great extent with a few local shops providing auto conversions and such, but unfortunately, it still hasn't found the mainstream yet.
But it does appear there are lots of "hurricane aftermath" type HHO fed electric power generators in storage just waiting for that workout.

Here's a link to an HHO Test Set I put together a few years back. It never went beyond some lab testing but I thought you might find it interesting:

http://contest.techbriefs.com/2011/entries/machinery-and-equipment/1887

The HHO/ICE scheme turned out to be too noisy and maintenance prone for our application [irrigation - greenhouse] so I turned to Solar and subsequently Electromagnetic (Bob Smith - Kapanadze - Akula - Dally - etc.). These techniques do actually work but, as always with new technologies, they need a lot more development before they're "turn-key."

Here's a couple of links to my solar approach (these work great but they're expensive and too complicated):

http://contest.techbriefs.com/2010/entries/sustainable-technologies/608
http://contest.techbriefs.com/2010/entries/machinery-and-equipment/919

Anyway, good to here your still at it, hope you all are doing well, and thanks for sharing!

Lurker Dave...   :o)

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: cap100nf on June 14, 2014, 11:13:19 PM
Les;


Thank you very much for your gift. I understand that it is a lot of hard work and money you put in to this. It is really generous of you.


The .PCB files do they contain both layouts an schematics? I cant find any schematics in the zip file.
What program do I need to open the files?


With Best regards


Kent /
 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Marshallin on June 15, 2014, 03:07:51 AM
Les;


Thank you very much for your gift. I understand that it is a lot of hard work and money you put in to this. It is really generous of you.


The .PCB files do they contain both layouts an schematics? I cant find any schematics in the zip file.
What program do I need to open the files?


With Best regards


Kent /

Protel DXP 2004 can open it. But it not support new os, so i am running it on winXP inside virtual box.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 15, 2014, 05:03:08 AM
All,

About my files:

I use Protel (PFW) for all my electronics designs, both schematics (circuit diagrams) and pcb layout.
However, to enable everyone to 'read' my circuit diagrams, I have converted them to PDF.
Two of the smaller diagrams have .png extension, the rest (12) has .pdf extension.

The .pcb files are in the original Protel format to enable board manufacture.
If you wish to view those files, you need the Protel software.
As far as I know, the Protel 99SE is still available for FREE download.

It would be pointless to convert the pcb files to PDF because while you would able to see the board layout, tracks, silk screening, etc.,
ALL information needed for board manufacturing would be totally LOST!

I write my text files as 'Open Office' documents but save them as 'Word' files since some people have problems opening .odt files.

I hope this helps those who have problems opening the various file types.

Cheers,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Marshallin on June 15, 2014, 10:14:00 AM
Les : Yes protel 99se have free trial version, but i was not able to instal it on 64-bit OS (i tried it on win 7 and 8 ). Thats why i have virtual-box with win xp.
If anyone will be interested i can convert your drawing to .cad files and post them somewhere.

I am thniking about some small scale replica(some RC motor or realy small gasoline generator <1kw), but i have almost not experience in combustion engine field and not as much money to spare  :).
I would be realy glad if sameone help me a little bit. So guys if you have free time please PM me.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MarkE on June 15, 2014, 11:28:12 AM
All,

About my files:

I use Protel (PFW) for all my electronics designs, both schematics (circuit diagrams) and pcb layout.
However, to enable everyone to 'read' my circuit diagrams, I have converted them to PDF.
Two of the smaller diagrams have .png extension, the rest (12) has .pdf extension.

The .pcb files are in the original Protel format to enable board manufacture.
If you wish to view those files, you need the Protel software.
As far as I know, the Protel 99SE is still available for FREE download.

It would be pointless to convert the pcb files to PDF because while you would able to see the board layout, tracks, silk screening, etc.,
ALL information needed for board manufacturing would be totally LOST!

I write my text files as 'Open Office' documents but save them as 'Word' files since some people have problems opening .odt files.

I hope this helps those who have problems opening the various file types.

Cheers,
Les Banki
You could always post the Gerber and NC-Drill files.  There are free readers for those, and they are needed by the fab house.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: jauniaux on June 15, 2014, 11:58:38 AM
totally agree, all PCB manufacturers only asks for gerber files (even cheap factories in china).

I didn't find the pdf files of the schematics in the zip file (from dropbox) from Les Banki. Could you guide me to those files ?

Thanks again for all this great work. I will be doing a small replica on my free time and will post updates in the forum.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 15, 2014, 12:45:04 PM

I am thinking about some small scale replica(some RC motor or realy small gasoline generator <1kw), but i have almost not experience in combustion engine field and not as much money to spare  :) .


Marshallin (and others)

Please note that the design of my Electronic Control Unit (ECU) for this project is INDEPENDENT of generator/engine size.

In practical terms it means that the ECU will be the same for a tiny engine as for a VERY LARGE one!
Thus, you are NOT saving anything on electronics by running a very small generator but you could save a little (not much) by making a smaller electrolyser.

For a LARGE generator, you could increase the size of the eletrolyser or have two electrolysers in parallel.

In my next post I will deal with the perceived "complexity" of my ECU design.

Cheers,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Marshallin on June 15, 2014, 01:47:17 PM
Les, stainless steel is stupidly expensive in my country so i want use old small electrolyser.
Is not powerfull but is power effective ... i sending picture from my thesis. I just need better case for that. Defenetly is not in my power to build some large 140 plate electrolyser so far.

I am quite afraid from large volme of hydroxy gas, i dont want to "play" with it, till i will get some experience. And i dont have stanalone workshop ... i am living in small apartment.

Is posible to run two stroke engine on hydroxy (If i will add standalone lubrication system to it of course)? Or i need 4-stroke one?



Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: wistiti on June 15, 2014, 03:27:59 PM
hi Les
would you please point me the link of your pdf file.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Paul-R on June 15, 2014, 03:48:37 PM
Les, stainless steel is stupidly expensive in my country so i want use old small electrolyser.
Is not powerfull but is power effective ...

Is posible to run two stroke engine on hydroxy
hydroxy needs the timng of the spark changed. advanced. With 2-stroke, you need to ignore one of the sparks, I believe.

N.B. For some electrolysers, staniless steel is essential for even adequate performance, and usually 316L is specified. do you have a recycling depot near you? They tend to collect metals separately and will have stainless steel. Scrapped commercial kitchen units are good, as is scrapped medical equipment

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk
See Chapter 10.
.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: cap100nf on June 15, 2014, 04:44:01 PM



Ok, thank you all for advice of program to use.




Regards


Kent /
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Marshallin on June 15, 2014, 05:32:11 PM
hydroxy needs the timng of the spark changed. advanced. With 2-stroke, you need to ignore one of the sparks, I believe.

N.B. For some electrolysers, staniless steel is essential for even adequate performance, and usually 316L is specified. do you have a recycling depot near you? They tend to collect metals separately and will have stainless steel. Scrapped commercial kitchen units are good, as is scrapped medical equipment

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk
See Chapter 10.
.

With recycling depo is problem because of new law, they shout not give you anythnig. Stupid Czech republic laws .... they will scrap it anyway.
Last year i was trying to get few micowave over transformer from them, and only way how to do it was bribing staff with alcohol :D.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: e2matrix on June 15, 2014, 08:59:55 PM
Big THANKS to Les Banki for all his extensive work on HHO!     For anyone concerned with noise from a generator there is a very simple and cheap solution many people don't know unless they have experienced it.   You simply build a wooden box with what is available - plywood or boards and then get some open face (or unfaced) fiberglass insulation.  I'd suggest R-30 and staple it to all the walls inside the box.   You will be amazed at the sound deadening properties of a box built like this.  As a rough guess I think you could probably get all the insulation for a project like this for around $20 depending on the size of your generator.  A very quick google check found 33 square feet of R30 for about $21. 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: jauniaux on June 15, 2014, 09:30:29 PM
Big THANKS to Les Banki for all his extensive work on HHO!     For anyone concerned with noise from a generator there is a very simple and cheap solution many people don't know unless they have experienced it.   You simply build a wooden box with what is available - plywood or boards and then get some open face (or unfaced) fiberglass insulation.  I'd suggest R-30 and staple it to all the walls inside the box.   You will be amazed at the sound deadening properties of a box built like this.  As a rough guess I think you could probably get all the insulation for a project like this for around $20 depending on the size of your generator.  A very quick google check found 33 square feet of R30 for about $21.
just be careful with the heat from the motor, but great idea
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: totoalas on June 16, 2014, 01:40:34 AM
It would be a great help if the link info can be downloaded here in this thread for everyone to see.....  its been 3 years since I played with magnets and HHO   think   its time to make a good one now   thanks to LES
totoalas :)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 16, 2014, 03:06:34 AM
Hi guys,

Sorry for the confusion but thanks to the feedback from some of you I checked my Dropbox Folder and you seem to be right:
all the circuit diagrams are MISSING.

[Actually, an IT engineer friend from Canada (who is replicating this project) compiled and zipped that folder for me.
I am not blaming him for the omission but I obviously need to do everything myself!  (as I normally do!)]

So, for the time being, I will attach those missing circuit diagrams here but I need 2 posts to attach 14 diagrams.

Cheers,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 16, 2014, 03:15:07 AM
Hi guys,

Back again with the last two (2) diagrams with the .png extension.

I now have to fix my Dropbox folder! ;D

Cheers,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 16, 2014, 08:32:38 AM
OK guys,

Its all "fixed"!

The easiest way was simply to create an additional Dropbox Folder (and its 'checksum') which contains the 14 missing circuit diagram files.

That is what I have done and here is the link:

 http://goo.gl/8zY8Um (http://goo.gl/8zY8Um)

#md5#WFGPsch.zip#2014.06.16@12.58:54 3f00292dfc1a630f047b705e0dc6192d *WFGPsch.zip

Cheers,

Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 16, 2014, 09:07:39 AM
hydroxy needs the timng of the spark changed. advanced. With 2-stroke, you need to ignore one of the sparks, I believe.

N.B. For some electrolysers, staniless steel is essential for even adequate performance, and usually 316L is specified. do you have a recycling depot near you? They tend to collect metals separately and will have stainless steel. Scrapped commercial kitchen units are good, as is scrapped medical equipment

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk (http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk)
See Chapter 10.
.


Paul-R,


You are NOT doing the readers here any favors by making comments of this nature.


Therefore, I request that BEFORE you make further comments on this subject, PLEASE read at least some of my documents like "Ignition system for


small engines 2.....", HydrOxy-gen. 'cosed-loop' setup.doc and "Running series cell electrolysers on 50-60Hz AC power...."
as an absolute

minimum!


Thank you.


Cheers,

Les Banki




Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: iflewmyown on June 16, 2014, 10:45:40 AM
Les, I know you have been at this a long time. Could you tell me what is the largest size engine that can be run (at full load) off your current size electrolyzer  continuously without over heating the electrolyzer?
Thank you
Garry
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 16, 2014, 12:01:35 PM
Les, stainless steel is stupidly expensive in my country so i want use old small electrolyser.
Is not powerfull but is power effective ... i sending picture from my thesis. I just need better case for that. Defenetly is not in my power to build some large 140 plate electrolyser so far.

I am quite afraid from large volme of hydroxy gas, i dont want to "play" with it, till i will get some experience. And i dont have stanalone workshop ... i am living in small apartment.

Is posible to run two stroke engine on hydroxy (If i will add standalone lubrication system to it of course)? Or i need 4-stroke one?


Mashallin,

The pictures you have attached are nice but without gas output volume and power consumption figures those pictures don't mean anything.

Your electrolyser may not be able to run even a small engine. (but you can always try!)

Again and again I keep telling you to do some reading first.... 

You need to read at least a few of my documents before you do anything!

Those are:

Overview4.doc

Ignition system for small engines 2.doc

HyrOxy-gen. 'closed-loop' set-up.doc

Running series cell electrolysers on 50-60Hz AC power.doc



Here is some general info about my electrolyser design:

SS 316 plates, size 180 x 100 mm, 0.55 mm thick

They are placed in 0.6 mm wide, 5 mm deep grooves in 15 mm thick CLEAR Acrylic.

The distance between the center of the grooves is 3.5 mm.


The two end plates (where power is connected) are 100 x 90 mm, 2 mm thick.

6 mm diameter SS 316 bolts are welded to these end plates to connect power.


As for the cost of SS316:

A few months ago I bought 4 sheets of SS 316, 0.55 mm thick, size 1.2 m x 2.4 m (4' x 8' Imperial) for $50.00 each

(in Melbourne, Australia)

We get more than 150 plates (180 x 100 mm) out of one sheet, more than enough for one 140 cell electrolyser!

I  guess  the price could be similar in other countries.

That is all for now.

Cheers,

Les Banki

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Marshallin on June 16, 2014, 12:42:31 PM

Mashallin,

Again and again I keep telling you to do some reading first.... 



Hi,

Issue is that throught first reading i was not able found answers to my basic stupid questions. I will read it again at night. You write a lot of about timing and injecting, but for me are right now important two questions.

What motor is suitable for reworking and what motor are not? What motor systems are easies to rework?
How much HHO i will need to run it (no closed loop, at first i want just run it)? Is there any formula?

This small-one electrolyser produce aproximatly 1+ LPM HHO and was was powering it with 40w power supply. But in reality it consume less ...
There is still issue with large bubles, but i will order for it some ultrasonic tranducer to make buble flow more fluid, so i get rid of current spikes (big bouble mess up with capacity ... my cell si woking like water capactior). But looks like i will need to make new one anyway.
So this production is realy small if i compare it to yours. So no chance to run big motor. Thats why i was thinking about RC motor.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Paul-R on June 16, 2014, 02:23:34 PM

Paul-R,


You are NOT doing the readers here any favors by making comments of this nature.


Therefore, I request that BEFORE you make further comments on this subject, PLEASE read at least some of my documents like "Ignition system for


small engines 2.....", HydrOxy-gen. 'cosed-loop' setup.doc and "Running series cell electrolysers on 50-60Hz AC power...."
as an absolute

minimum!


Thank you.


Cheers,

Les Banki
The title of this thread is "self running hho system with 400 watts additional power", talking about the Anton cell.

It would seem that you should start a new thread for your ideas.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: bitbo on June 16, 2014, 03:38:11 PM

Here is some general info about my electrolyser design:
SS 316 plates, size 180 x 100 mm, 0.55 mm thick
They are placed in 0.6 mm wide, 5 mm deep grooves in 15 mm thick CLEAR Acrylic.
The distance between the center of the grooves is 3.5 mm.


Hello Les Banki!


Thanks a lot for sharing your results and details.
I would be interested in the layout/holes of your plates.
Do you have an image available.


How do you seal them - how do you seal the end plates?


Did you somewhere mention the pulse frequency which are sent to the plates?


Again Thanks
[size=78%]bitbo[/size]
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mscoffman on June 16, 2014, 08:24:08 PM
Les,

I re-read this thead and at all of these design files. I am impressed with what you have done.

The overunity energy production it seems is either in the Electrolyser and/or The Ducar
Generator. In the generator it would vest as less mechanical effort required to produce a
given amount of electricity. If it's in the electrolyser it would vest as an over Faraday
amount of HydrOxy being generated per unit power.

a) The electrolyzer is very important, so people might want to purchase
it prebuilt. That way it is built exactly to specification, such as the
minimum/maximum fluid levels and the fluid delay constants.
Also final test could be carried out against an operating genset, so overunity
operation could be guaranteed from the factory. I feel this is important too
because it is a high voltage electrolyser. I believe it should be offered in the
7KW version only.  At 240VAC @ 10A and it's physically big.

b) 50Hz. is pretty much locked into your design by component values
in the control boards. I don't know if you've gone through to change
the components for 60Hz opperation? There is a 60Hz version of the
Ducar 9000 genset for $799US.

c) Modern Digital Inverter generators  have two "problems". The motor power need
is not precise that it requires phase control. The control board cannot make use of electrical
power signals for phase control. Most likely these already have oil presssure monitoring
and some sort CD ignition. Combined with sufficient voltage and frequency stability would
indicate a substantial change could be made to the control box.

The reason these digital inverter gensets may be desirable is the following
 (A) Accurate Voltage/Frequency.
 (B) It eases throttling demands on motor.
 (C) Oil Pressure and fault monitoring available.
 (D) Lower Nosie.
 (E) Electrical Power Buffering.
 (F) Specified in Electric Vehicle specifications for output signal quality requirements.

 :S:MarkSCoffman

BTW: "I am *NOT* Mark Denise"
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 19, 2014, 01:13:22 PM


BTW: "I am *NOT* Mark Denise"

Hi Mark,

Do you mean 'markdansie'?
I don't think we will see him or his kind in THIS thread unless they have a desire to make a fool of themselves! :)

The GAME IS OVER for those guys and they know it!

Les,

I re-read this thead and at all of these design files. I am impressed with what you have done.


Thanks.



The overunity energy production it seems is either in the Electrolyser and/or The Ducar
Generator. In the generator it would vest as less mechanical effort required to produce a
given amount of electricity. If it's in the electrolyser it would vest as an over Faraday
amount of HydrOxy being generated per unit power.


I better NOT comment much on this issue because it will upset a few people!
However, I will just say that the so-called Faraday amount of HydrOxy is NOT valid!
IT NEVER HAS BEEN!

I dare say that VERY FEW PEOPLE understand water, the most remarkable substance on this planet!



a) The electrolyzer is very important, so people might want to purchase
it prebuilt. That way it is built exactly to specification, such as the
minimum/maximum fluid levels and the fluid delay constants.
Also final test could be carried out against an operating genset, so overunity
operation could be guaranteed from the factory. I feel this is important too
because it is a high voltage electrolyser. I believe it should be offered in the
7KW version only.  At 240VAC @ 10A and it's physically big.



The electrolyser is very important- ABSOLUTELY!

Physically big, yes. 

High voltage, yes.

So what?  It will have to be treated with the same respect as all other high voltage devices.

As for rest of the comments above, I DISAGREE.

Further, there are NO insane accuracy demands for this electrolyser design, unlike the "resonance" type electrolysis by Bob Boyce.

"minimum/maximum fluid levels and the fluid delay constants" ??

No offense but I honestly don't know what you are talking about!

Provided that people follow the guide lines of building the electrolyser, it is no big deal to achieve the same result every time!

I have NO INTENTION to limit the size of anything!

I leave that to the builders!

So far, it looks like that the 2 - 2.4kW electrolyser might be able to handle a generator perhaps as large as 15 kW!!
(We will soon find out!)



b) 50Hz. is pretty much locked into your design by component values
in the control boards. I don't know if you've gone through to change
the components for 60Hz opperation? There is a 60Hz version of the
Ducar 9000 genset for $799US.



Your concern for 60Hz operation is unfounded!

NO component changes whatsoever!

Please go back to the 'autorpm' circuit description document and re-read the adjustments section.

The switching frequency of the LM2907-N8 is adjusted by P1.

The VCO (IC13 - 4046) is only used for adjustments on the bench without an engine.

In fact it is disabled for normal operation.

No part of this ECU design is "locked in" to 50Hz operation!

The electrolyser is a different story but NOT because of the frequency!

It will have to be build to match the available local mains VOLTAGE!
(More on this later.)

Cheers,

Les Banki








Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 20, 2014, 05:34:07 AM
ALL,

About DOWNLOADS (of my files).

Yes, I DO monitor downloads from this thread AND from my Dropbox Folders regularly and I have made the following observations:

From THIS thread, the number of DOWNLOADS of 'autorpm1' and 'autorpm2' are NOT EQUAL!

This means that some of you only have about HALF the circuit diagram!

The simple reason for the TWO diagrams is that this is a LARGE circuit which does not fit on single sheet!

If you intend you use this design in any way, you need the complete diagram.

If not, just ignore this post!


As for the downloads from Dropbox, I note that the number of DOWNLOADS of the 'WFGPsch.zip' is about HALF of the 'LB_WFGP-Feb 2014.zip'.

This means that HALF of you DON'T HAVE any of the 14 circuit diagrams at all!


Cheers,

Les Banki

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Mark69 on June 20, 2014, 05:07:38 PM
Les, do you have a video of your system running?  I am unable to build your system at this time, do to being in an apt., but eventually would like to try (plus, I am a novice at electronics).
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 21, 2014, 05:48:47 AM
Les, do you have a video of your system running?  I am unable to build your system at this time, do to being in an apt., but eventually would like to try (plus, I am a novice at electronics).

Mark69,

I have NO INTENTION to make videos.

For what possible purpose?

If you find the above statement strange, just go back to the first page and number 1 post of this thread!

What do you see?

Let me "break it down" for all readers here!

Stefan Hartman, (the owner of this Forum) started this thread.

He presented (posted) the link to the video by Oliver & Valentin.

Read his comments!

Now go ahead and read all the "skeptical", ridiculing, discrediting , STUPID posts, trying to deny the OBVIOUS by screaming for

University review, "exhaust analysis" and so on!

I admire Stefan for his patience and for tolerating all those MORONIC posters!

Further, I was savagely attacked also.

My "gloves are OFF" now so don't expect me to be a Mr "nice guy" any more.


However, during several live demonstrations (of several units) the attendants will be making their own videos.

What they will do with them is their business.

Cheers,

Les Banki

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Paul-R on June 21, 2014, 03:28:30 PM

Stefan Hartman, (the owner of this Forum) started this thread.

He presented (posted) the link to the video by Oliver & Valentin.


***********************************
***********************************
***********************************

Yes, he did. - It is about the Anton cell.

Why have you hi-jacked it?

Start your own thread. Leave this to Anton researchers.

***********************************
***********************************
***********************************
.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 22, 2014, 03:38:23 AM
Just WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, Paul-R??

I have made it VERY CLEAR in my introductory post WHY I choose to post in this thread which has been DEAD for 2 1/2 years!

But it seems you have some problems READING and UNDERSTANDING....

You only want to ARGUE.

The Anton cell has been MENTIONED a couple of times but NOBODY has claimed that THIS thread is about the Anton cell!

In case you haven't discovered, there is a thread SPECIFICALLY for the Anton cell.

In any case, this is the LAST time I respond to your USELESS ravings!

Cheers,

Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Paul-R on June 22, 2014, 02:49:21 PM

 NOBODY has claimed that THIS thread is about the Anton cell!


There is a clue in the title.
.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mscoffman on June 22, 2014, 05:41:17 PM
Hey Les,

I've actually learned something! I think.

First, your designs are not just Analog they are Pulse Width Proportional hybrid
Analog/Digital. If one can translate a control system to an entirely linear system
then one can model it entirely as control sequences and pulse-proportional
modules. (PID proportional control is actually pulse-proportional where the circuit
attempts to learn one important proportionary hidden variable of the system by
operational trial and error. Not required here.)

If one can translate control entirely to linear systems then one can ignore the
non-linear control laws which most often result in the more complex differential
equations intermediates.  Efficiency calculations can then be looked at as linear
equations.

---

Somewhat along the same lines with the system in question.  What I hear you saying is;
"Get the subsystem function from whatever the source you can, overunity comes with it.
Then carefully construct a demand control structure so that as the next subsystem raises
vs lowers it's energy demand, the current subsytem raises or lower it's demand in response."
Which make the chain efficiency more or less constant by PWP means. Try to get the
HydrOdxy to stay at a constant pressure so the proportioning injector can accurately
control how much hydrogen is injected into the engine manifold based in energy demand.

Avoid those subsystems that attempt to run at constant fixed power level then behave
very inefficiently at demand limits.

---

Ok..Thanks. You've made something very valuable available to us here.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on June 23, 2014, 05:24:28 AM
Hey Les,

I've actually learned something! I think.

First, your designs are not just Analog they are Pulse Width Proportional hybrid
Analog/Digital. If one can translate a control system to an entirely linear system
then one can model it entirely as control sequences and pulse-proportional
modules. (PID proportional control is actually pulse-proportional where the circuit
attempts to learn one important proportionary hidden variable of the system by
operational trial and error. Not required here.)

If one can translate control entirely to linear systems then one can ignore the
non-linear control laws which most often result in the more complex differential
equations intermediates.  Efficiency calculations can then be looked at as linear
equations.

---

Somewhat along the same lines with the system in question.  What I hear you saying is;
"Get the subsystem function from whatever the source you can, overunity comes with it.
Then carefully construct a demand control structure so that as the next subsystem raises
vs lowers it's energy demand, the current subsytem raises or lower it's demand in response."
Which make the chain efficiency more or less constant by PWP means. Try to get the
HydrOdxy to stay at a constant pressure so the proportioning injector can accurately
control how much hydrogen is injected into the engine manifold based in energy demand.

Avoid those subsystems that attempt to run at constant fixed power level then behave
very inefficiently at demand limits.

---

Ok..Thanks. You've made something very valuable available to us here.



Mark,

Thank you very much for your kind words and even more thanks for your SUPERB analysis!

While highly "technical", I sincerely hope that your analysis does not fly above too many heads here!

As for me, I simply ACCEPT and thank SOURCE for the ideas and then try my best to implement them into usable form.

I also want you to know that ever since I started researching and experimenting with "water fuel" 20 years ago,

I have "copped" nothing but abuse!

So your posts are certainly "a breath of fresh air" and are much appreciated!

Thanks again!

Cheers,

Les Banki





Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: weirdal on September 06, 2014, 03:54:50 AM
I'm hoping someone can help me size an appropriate transformer for Les' super simple 2kw electrolyzer power supply circuit (SS2KWEPS), I have a 21 plate dry cell electrolyzer (19*19*11 cm) that can 'reportedly' handle up to 35v/70amp (2.45KW). If I wanted to get as close to 2kw as possible what transformer should I use?

I already have a couple AC Motor Run 100uF Capacitors, I haven't calculated or measured how much current these will limit yet so I will likely need a few more. I'm in north america so mains here is 120v, the bridge rectifier I'm using is KBPC5010W, any suggestions would be helpful.

Capacitors:
http://www.amazon.com/Conditioner-CBB65A-1-50uF-Motor-Capacitor/dp/B008DEZIM0

-Al
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MarkE on September 07, 2014, 03:55:56 AM
I'm hoping someone can help me size an appropriate transformer for Les' super simple 2kw electrolyzer power supply circuit (SS2KWEPS), I have a 21 plate dry cell electrolyzer (19*19*11 cm) that can 'reportedly' handle up to 35v/70amp (2.45KW). If I wanted to get as close to 2kw as possible what transformer should I use?

I already have a couple AC Motor Run 100uF Capacitors, I haven't calculated or measured how much current these will limit yet so I will likely need a few more. I'm in north america so mains here is 120v, the bridge rectifier I'm using is KBPC5010W, any suggestions would be helpful.

Capacitors:
http://www.amazon.com/Conditioner-CBB65A-1-50uF-Motor-Capacitor/dp/B008DEZIM0

-Al
2.5V * (N-1) is enough voltage to eletrolyze with reasonable electrolyte.  So you want at least 50V @ 40A.  35Vrms will peak at 50V, and your capacitors will droop after that. All is not lost, but you are running kind of ragged.  The simplest solution is to reduce the number of plates from 21 down to 14 or 15.    Your capacitors aren't really what you want.  At line frequency, your rail will droop about 1V for every ampere at 8,333 uF.    It would be a good idea to limit the droop to no more than 30% peak or 40% of the rms value.  So:

C = 8,333uF / A / V * 40A / ( 35V * 40% ) ~ 24,000uF.  You will need a ton of 100uF motor start capacitors to get there.  The caps should be rated at least 80V.

Another option is to remain light with the capacitors.  In that case, the electorlysis will start and stop 120 times per second as the voltage rises above 1.23V + margin per plate pair.  If you frop to 14 or 15 plates then you will get electrolysis about 50% of the time at a current that rises and falls 120 times per second.  So, you will maybe get about 25% the output as you will if you use 24,000uF of caps.  You will be more limited by the ripple current.  If you put ten of these in parallel, your ripple will be under control for a 14-15 plate design:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SLPX682M080E9P3/338-1653-ND/1882130 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SLPX682M080E9P3/338-1653-ND/1882130)
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: weirdal on September 08, 2014, 02:28:45 AM
2.5V * (N-1) is enough voltage to eletrolyze with reasonable electrolyte.  So you want at least 50V @ 40A.  35Vrms will peak at 50V, and your capacitors will droop after that. All is not lost, but you are running kind of ragged.  The simplest solution is to reduce the number of plates from 21 down to 14 or 15.    Your capacitors aren't really what you want.  At line frequency, your rail will droop about 1V for every ampere at 8,333 uF.    It would be a good idea to limit the droop to no more than 30% peak or 40% of the rms value.  So:

C = 8,333uF / A / V * 40A / ( 35V * 40% ) ~ 24,000uF.  You will need a ton of 100uF motor start capacitors to get there.  The caps should be rated at least 80V.

Another option is to remain light with the capacitors.  In that case, the electorlysis will start and stop 120 times per second as the voltage rises above 1.23V + margin per plate pair.  If you frop to 14 or 15 plates then you will get electrolysis about 50% of the time at a current that rises and falls 120 times per second.  So, you will maybe get about 25% the output as you will if you use 24,000uF of caps.  You will be more limited by the ripple current.  If you put ten of these in parallel, your ripple will be under control for a 14-15 plate design:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SLPX682M080E9P3/338-1653-ND/1882130 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SLPX682M080E9P3/338-1653-ND/1882130)

Thank you, this was very helpful. For the cost of capacitors I wonder if just using a stick welder for a power supply and plugging into a bigger bridge rectifier (KPBC8010 - 80A) will do the trick as output voltage is 50V and amperage is adjustable. I need to get about 7 LPM to run my genset so I don't know if a 14-15 plate design will produce enough, unless I run two of them separately.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MarkE on September 08, 2014, 02:32:27 AM
The problem is that you need the capacitors of some size in order to maintain the DC voltage.  Output is a function of the number of plates, the plate area, and the current.  The number of plates sets the floor on the voltage needed to produce gas.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: mscoffman on September 08, 2014, 03:25:23 AM
weirdal,

How about letting us knows how it goes, Len Banki seems to indicate that one cause of troubles in this field is having insufficient HHO
to meet the motors energy demands with the subsequent problems that can cause. For example his estimate is that one needs
2400Watts for a gen loaded 11HP engine.  George Wiseman's capacitive impedance driven 240VAC at 10amp = 2400W HHO generator
produces 1600 LPH 1atmos. HHO. You say you need only 420LPH, something is not quite adding up with 2400Watts in but I wondered
what HP rating your engine is? Don't give up too quickly on looping as there may be some alternatives to try.

The other thing is he says precise control of the amounts of HHO put into the engine are required which would seem somewhat
more difficult for the average experimenter to achieve.


:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: weirdal on September 08, 2014, 04:48:01 AM
Ok, I'll see how much I can get out of my cell and plan on re-sizing it as suggested and add the necessary capacitors. FYI - The generator I'm using is a Champion 41552:

http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41552/
http://www.championpowerequipment.com/pdf/manuals/41552/41552_manual-english.pdf

I'll be using a gaseous fuel injector for improved efficiency.

-Al
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on September 08, 2014, 10:17:41 AM
Ok, I'll see how much I can get out of my cell and plan on re-sizing it as suggested and add the necessary capacitors. FYI - The generator I'm using is a Champion 41552:

http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41552/ (http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41552/)
http://www.championpowerequipment.com/pdf/manuals/41552/41552_manual-english.pdf (http://www.championpowerequipment.com/pdf/manuals/41552/41552_manual-english.pdf)

I'll be using a gaseous fuel injector for improved efficiency.

-Al


 Al,

 
I see you are new here and have already fallen 'prey' to the resident FULL TIME SABOTEUR of this Forum!!

 
His “advise” is the most technically ABSURD post I ever had the misfortune to read since I started reading/posting on several forums more than 10 years ago!

 
It is downright CRAP!
ALL OF IT!
It is VERY clear that he has NO knowledge whatsoever about electrolysis and has NEVER made an electrolyser of any description in his miserable life!

 
The “game” he is PAID to play was already last several DECADES ago!
His performance is PATHETIC to the point of being embarrassing.

 
Now to the technical part.

 
The generator you have has the same rating as mine and a couple of friends' who are duplicating my WFGP.
The cell you have described is NOT big enough to run a generator of this size.

 
Basically, you have two options:
You could get two more cells like the one you already have and connect them in SERIES.
You then have 63 cells but may still need some current limiting, yes, capacitors but NOT 24.000µF!!
(24.000µF, my ASS!  What an idiot!)

 
or,

 
Make an electrolyser like mine but with 68 cells, which will become SELF-REGULATING.

 
If you wish to see HOW it is done, you should visit these links:

 
http://www.energy-shiftingparadigms.com/index.php/board,9.0.html (http://www.energy-shiftingparadigms.com/index.php/board,9.0.html)

 
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2578.msg41402;topicseen#msg41402 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2578.msg41402;topicseen#msg41402)

 
where you don't have to worry about saboteurs, they are on READ ONLY!

 
Cheers,
Les Banki
 
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MarkE on September 08, 2014, 01:42:19 PM
Al,

 
I see you are new here and have already fallen 'prey' to the resident FULL TIME SABOTEUR of this Forum!!

 
His “advise” is the most technically ABSURD post I ever had the misfortune to read since I started reading/posting on several forums more than 10 years ago!

 
It is downright CRAP!
ALL OF IT!
It is VERY clear that he has NO knowledge whatsoever about electrolysis and has NEVER made an electrolyser of any description in his miserable life!

 
The “game” he is PAID to play was already last several DECADES ago!
His performance is PATHETIC to the point of being embarrassing.

 
Now to the technical part.

 
The generator you have has the same rating as mine and a couple of friends' who are duplicating my WFGP.
The cell you have described is NOT big enough to run a generator of this size.

 
Basically, you have two options:
You could get two more cells like the one you already have and connect them in SERIES.
You then have 63 cells but may still need some current limiting, yes, capacitors but NOT 24.000µF!!
(24.000µF, my ASS!  What an idiot!)

 
or,

 
Make an electrolyser like mine but with 68 cells, which will become SELF-REGULATING.

 
If you wish to see HOW it is done, you should visit these links:

 
http://www.energy-shiftingparadigms.com/index.php/board,9.0.html (http://www.energy-shiftingparadigms.com/index.php/board,9.0.html)

 
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2578.msg41402;topicseen#msg41402 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2578.msg41402;topicseen#msg41402)

 
where you don't have to worry about saboteurs, they are on READ ONLY!

 
Cheers,
Les Banki
Les, rectifier / capacitor input line frequency filters are very simple and well understood mechanisms.  If you have difficulty with:  VDROOP = Q/C, or C = Q/VDROOP or that at 60Hz mains frequency, Q ~=8333us*I, there are plenty of references as well as circuit simulators that can be instructive.

Perhaps you would like to explain how adding the capacitor bank is going to "sabotage" his unit.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: stevie1001 on September 08, 2014, 06:10:13 PM
Marke, the typewriter of this forum......

Les is Right about the capacitor banks.
Dont use it.
I know this from my own builds and engine runs on 100% hho.
I also know why.
Now you do some research yourself and come with answers.....
Its right under your nose...
Strait DC or pulsed dc.....
The whole WHY question.

Les, your the man!
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MarkE on September 09, 2014, 02:38:59 AM
Marke, the typewriter of this forum......

Les is Right about the capacitor banks.
Dont use it.
I know this from my own builds and engine runs on 100% hho.
I also know why.
Now you do some research yourself and come with answers.....
Its right under your nose...
Strait DC or pulsed dc.....
The whole WHY question.

Les, your the man!
If you don't mind getting only about 60%-65% of the output with the same transformer and rectifier, then by all means, forgo the capacitors and let the current build-up and collapse at 2X the mains frequency.  If you want to regulate with PWM it is a lot more effective to rectify a bus first and then PWM from that bus at a frequency of at least several kHz, than it is to make the mains your switching source.  When you PWM from a DC bus, you can shape the pulses anyway that you want, not just a raised cosine at 2X mains frequency.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: stevie1001 on September 09, 2014, 12:59:31 PM
If you don't mind getting only about 60%-65% of the output with the same transformer and rectifier, then by all means, forgo the capacitors and let the current build-up and collapse at 2X the mains frequency.  If you want to regulate with PWM it is a lot more effective to rectify a bus first and then PWM from that bus at a frequency of at least several kHz, than it is to make the mains your switching source.  When you PWM from a DC bus, you can shape the pulses anyway that you want, not just a raised cosine at 2X mains frequency.


Wrong direction of thinking.
This has nothing to do with efficiency or with current control to do.





Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MarkE on September 10, 2014, 08:32:45 AM

Wrong direction of thinking.
This has nothing to do with efficiency or with current control to do.
It has to do with the output gas capacity for a given size transformer.  If one likes bigger heavier transformers to produce less gas, then by all means leave the capacitors out and let the line collapse each half cycle.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Les Banki on September 10, 2014, 10:15:00 AM

Wrong direction of thinking.
This has nothing to do with efficiency or with current control to do.

Hi Stevie,

Nice to see you here again!  It's been a while.
Thanks for your support also.

As you have no doubt discovered, it is a dead waste of time in engaging in any form of 'dialog' with the "typewriter" of this Forum....
He always has to have the last word. 
Let him!
His agenda is the OPPOSITE of ours!

On top of that, he knows "JACK SHIT" about electrolysis!

Cheers,
Les Banki
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: stevie1001 on September 10, 2014, 11:14:20 AM
It has to do with the output gas capacity for a given size transformer.  If one likes bigger heavier transformers to produce less gas, then by all means leave the capacitors out and let the line collapse each half cycle.


Sorry Marke.
You clearly didnt read my post.
You look into efficiency again.
Learn about how electrolysis in depth really works. Then you might see why Les design is what it is...
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: stevie1001 on September 10, 2014, 11:16:05 AM
Hi Stevie,

Nice to see you here again!  It's been a while.
Thanks for your support also.

As you have no doubt discovered, it is a dead waste of time in engaging in any form of 'dialog' with the "typewriter" of this Forum....
He always has to have the last word. 
Let him!
His agenda is the OPPOSITE of ours!

On top of that, he knows "JACK SHIT" about electrolysis!

Cheers,
Les Banki


Hi Les,


And you are also still on the topic.....old love never die, i suppose!


Hang in there!





Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: MarkE on September 10, 2014, 11:34:31 AM

Sorry Marke.
You clearly didnt read my post.
You look into efficiency again.
Learn about how electrolysis in depth really works. Then you might see why Les design is what it is...
Stevie1001 oh but I did.  You are free to do the math.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Qwert on September 10, 2014, 12:26:47 PM
Hi Stevie,

Nice to see you here again!  It's been a while.
Thanks for your support also.

As you have no doubt discovered, it is a dead waste of time in engaging in any form of 'dialog' with the "typewriter" of this Forum....
He always has to have the last word. 
Let him!
His agenda is the OPPOSITE of ours!

On top of that, he knows "JACK SHIT" about electrolysis!

Cheers,
Les Banki
With eight ( 8 ) years of experience on this forum, do you have any successful result?
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: stevie1001 on September 10, 2014, 06:34:12 PM
With eight ( 8 ) years of experience on this forum, do you have any successful result?


Yes i have.

Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: CowboyRX on September 10, 2014, 06:39:45 PM

Yes i have.
Please share your knowledge.
Title: Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
Post by: Qwert on September 10, 2014, 08:04:22 PM
The only convincing way to prove that such H2O system works, is to make a closed arrangement: H2O electrolyzer/IC engine/DC generator/ >> back to H2O electrolyzer. If that works at least one full day and night (24 hours) by itself, I'll be fully convinced; no need for any math or electric formulas or even any light bulb to convince that there is an electric current involved.