Author Topic: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output (Read 372633 times)

bolt · « **Reply #375 on:** March 11, 2011, 12:18:57 AM »

You don't have to make advanced PWM's to test this engine. DC is good enough already COP 3 via ICE so if you tune everything correctly it will work from the get go. Even if you are very sloppy and use all of the COP 3 to keep the engine running with nothing left for a load it makes a nice OU water powered heater:)

While Les has covered all the dots and crossed the t's IMO is terribly complex for DIY replication. It looks like a 1980's TV circuit LOL

You can do everything required using an AVR micro which only cost about 15 bucks. Then you add a hall sensor to pin 2, one power fet to pin 5 via a driver and a car ignition coil and you are good to go.

Feynman · « **Reply #376 on:** March 11, 2011, 01:54:54 AM »

Quote

You don't have to make advanced PWM's to test this engine.

Agreed!

Quote

DC is good enough already COP 3 via ICE

Yup!

Quote

While Les has covered all the dots and crossed the t's IMO is terribly complex for DIY replication. It looks like a 1980's TV circuit LOL

Yea
Les's PWM circuit is awesome, especially the clock synchronization/amplification stages. Yeah it's old school, but I'm gonna mod it for TPU type work, in combination with a microcontroller to replace the frequency generator chip.

Anyway, I use Arduinos normally; I looked it up and your 'AVR microcontroller' is Atmel, which is nice.

So where do you mount the hall sensor and its associated magnet to modify the generator to run on HHO? How does the car ignition coil fit into the circuit? Do you have schematics / source code for the HHO engine modification using the Atmel microcontroller?

Thanks,
Feynman

bolt · « **Reply #377 on:** March 11, 2011, 03:02:34 AM »

Put the hall almost anywhere to collect the pulses off the magnet that's already on the flywheel. It should be somewhere advanced so everything in software has delay control. Just remake simple fet trigger to car coil for new spark system and make everything factory fitted redundant. Basically as the German guys did on their machine.

My brother is doing the code he might open source it i don't know its up to him. He could even charge a small fee for it when its ready. I can hack code and tweak stuff and do a few lines here and there but im not a code writer. I just put the flow chart together for start init, set first pulse delay, find engine spark phase blank, set run flag, set angular degrees, set run speed, adjust pwm for gas control and i got emergency over speed control to adjust to the timing etc. There is even a bit of Fuzzy Logic so the timing sets for best running and lowest HHO usage.

Its a fair bit of coding but the idea is we have no mechanical modifications whatsoever from standard engine. There are no plastic timing cogs, no magnets bolted on inlet valves the only thing to do is take off tank and carb and make a little bolt on air manifold/ HHO injector. So everything can go back to make this a virgin genset. Its planned to start off the mains directly via control stuff or using jump start batteries 24 volts to gas up the cell. It should only need 300 watts to get a start loop going. Once the engine is running pull the jump cables off. Hand pull or electric drill start will do either.

Its not running yet its taken since Christmas for parts procurement, money and time to do this but we are very close now.

ramset · « **Reply #378 on:** March 11, 2011, 03:31:24 PM »

bolt
Seeing that this [HHO] is where you are spending your time and hard earned money [and I know from your posts you ain't rich]
That speaks "Volumes" to me!
What are you using for a cell?User Woodpecker hasn't been around here for a long time ,his cells I understand are quite
effective!

Thanks
Chet

Feynman · « **Reply #379 on:** March 11, 2011, 04:46:20 PM »

Quote from: bolt on March 11, 2011, 03:02:34 AM

Put the hall almost anywhere to collect the pulses off the magnet that's already on the flywheel. It should be somewhere advanced so everything in software has delay control. Just remake simple fet trigger to car coil for new spark system and make everything factory fitted redundant. Basically as the German guys did on their machine.

My brother is doing the code he might open source it i don't know its up to him. He could even charge a small fee for it when its ready. I can hack code and tweak stuff and do a few lines here and there but im not a code writer. I just put the flow chart together for start init, set first pulse delay, find engine spark phase blank, set run flag, set angular degrees, set run speed, adjust pwm for gas control and i got emergency over speed control to adjust to the timing etc. There is even a bit of Fuzzy Logic so the timing sets for best running and lowest HHO usage.

Its a fair bit of coding but the idea is we have no mechanical modifications whatsoever from standard engine. There are no plastic timing cogs, no magnets bolted on inlet valves the only thing to do is take off tank and carb and make a little bolt on air manifold/ HHO injector. So everything can go back to make this a virgin genset. Its planned to start off the mains directly via control stuff or using jump start batteries 24 volts to gas up the cell. It should only need 300 watts to get a start loop going. Once the engine is running pull the jump cables off. Hand pull or electric drill start will do either.

Its not running yet its taken since Christmas for parts procurement, money and time to do this but we are very close now.

Bolt... that would be cool if you brother open sourced the microcontroller code. I generally open source my microcontroller projects -- but I'm lucky enough to have a day job.

The idea sounds great. I am sure it will work. Have you decided on a particular genset , or do you think any brand and type will work?

Thanks,
Feynman

grizli · « **Reply #380 on:** March 12, 2011, 12:20:32 AM »

Quote from: bolt on March 11, 2011, 12:18:57 AM

You don't have to make advanced PWM's to test this engine. DC is good enough already COP 3 via ICE so if you tune everything correctly it will work from the get go. Even if you are very sloppy and use all of the COP 3 to keep the engine running with nothing left for a load it makes a nice OU water powered heater:)

While Les has covered all the dots and crossed the t's IMO is terribly complex for DIY replication. It looks like a 1980's TV circuit LOL

You can do everything required using an AVR micro which only cost about 15 bucks. Then you add a hall sensor to pin 2, one power fet to pin 5 via a driver and a car ignition coil and you are good to go.

all his logi circuits could stack one one PIC...

or even better FPGA

simple logic scheme is easer to program using vhdl...
but fpga boards are expensive

But we need logic scheme of his scheme, does he provide ?

dont have much XP with mictrocontrolers

bolt · « **Reply #381 on:** March 12, 2011, 04:01:31 AM »

Quote from: Feynman on March 11, 2011, 04:46:20 PM

Bolt... that would be cool if you brother open sourced the microcontroller code. I generally open source my microcontroller projects -- but I'm lucky enough to have a day job.

The idea sounds great. I am sure it will work. Have you decided on a particular genset , or do you think any brand and type will work?

Thanks,
Feynman

As i said i don't know what he intends to do with the software. Bear in mind we all need some project $'s income otherwise nothing happens. So many people tell me to build stuff and stop talking so much LOL If i had the money i would build everything i thought had a chance of being useful.

Even Bob Boyce has proprietary software which he will kindly sell you for a small fortune with an NDA. No one says you have to use software you can make your own 555's which is not too hard, or buy Les B's boards professional made might cost 150 bucks who knows? If it was to be sold it would be a very modest fee and ship the AVR chip but im guessing.

The reason for going HHO is simple. I have a new Genset 2.2Kw 5HP 4 stroke gas engine. I read and learnt enough over the years to see HHO really has some magic to it. When i see the Xmas video i thought what the heck this i KNOW can work. Most important i have a money back guarantee cos if it doesn't i can sell the genset and the HHO cell and recover most of the outlay. OR keep the stuff, put the cell on the car and keep the genset and run it on anything from Butane, diesel, LPG, HHO mix, gasoline, nat gas etc for emergency use so unlike other projects its not a dead loss. Whatever happens even if i can not loop it the HHO will make it very efficient HHO/Mix

By the way the cell is 21 plate 316L DRYCELL capable of 4-5 LPM on DC approx 1000 watts and 6-7 LPM with HF PWM drive. I run it on reverse osmosis water <4 ppm and just 1 or 2 granules of KOH on HV DC so its like 0.0000000001% KOH

1000 watts will give me 3000 watts within the ICE. Roughly half that 1500-2000 watts will go back as losses and running the cell should leave 1000 watts OU so for the size engine i will be roughly double the German looper IF it works!

I had a LOT of problems with flashbacks, still sorting this out. Things work ok at 1-3 LPM but over that it goes back to the bubbler and its so fking loud i gone deaf and my nerves are shot. LOL

retrod · « **Reply #382 on:** March 12, 2011, 05:01:00 PM »

Bolt, are you planning on raising the compression ratio on your motor?

On the Woodpecker video a flashback device is very close to the motor inlet and the HHO is piped straight in.
http://www.youtube.com/user/woodpecker1311#p/a/u/1/kTFVW8w8bjI
Also on that video when the HHO is removed the engine continues to run and surge. I suspect there is still some hydrocarbon vapors remaining?

On the Scarecrow videos from 2008 a 3.5 hp generator is shown running on HHO with many flashback booms during start up. On the final and postmortem videos he mentions 6 LPM @ 1000 watts was required for idle and 9 LPM @ 2000 watts was required to run at full speed with a small load. He did not make any timing or compression changes.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SmartScarecrow#p/c/C547458B2E914426/1/APpGvVWsZZ8

I hope you are wearing ear protection in your tests. From watching the available videos it looks like starting the engine on gasoline to get the engine temperature up quickly could make for a smoother transition.

Best of luck,
RD

bolt · « **Reply #383 on:** March 12, 2011, 05:16:21 PM »

Quote

Bolt, are you planning on raising the compression ratio on your motor?

No its unnecessary and risk of engine damage.

Quote

On the Woodpecker video a flashback device is very close to the motor inlet and the HHO is piped straight in.
http://www.youtube.com/user/woodpecker1311#p/a/u/1/kTFVW8w8bjI
Also on that video when the HHO is removed the engine continues to run and surge. I suspect there is still some hydrocarbon vapors remaining?

You wont get rid of carbon vapours its a 4 stroke engine and therefore it is lubricated by oil and will show very tiny amounts in exhaust BUT its not the source of fuel.

Quote

On the Scarecrow videos from 2008 a 3.5 hp generator is shown running on HHO with many flashback booms during start up. On the final and postmortem videos he mentions 6 LPM @ 1000 watts was required for idle and 9 LPM @ 2000 watts was required to run at full speed with a small load. He did not make any timing or compression changes.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SmartScarecrow#p/c/C547458B2E914426/1/APpGvVWsZZ8

I hope you are wearing ear protection in your tests. From watching the available videos it looks like starting the engine on gasoline to get the engine temperature up quickly could make for a smoother transition.

Best of luck,
RD

if you don't change the timing the engine runs like a pig, back fires, can bend valves and can burn hole in piston. Plus it requires a HUGE amount of gas just to barely run. When properly tuned and blank spark sorted all these issues vanish. Thanks for your input!

grizli · « **Reply #384 on:** March 12, 2011, 11:55:03 PM »

Quote from: bolt on March 12, 2011, 04:01:31 AM

As i said i don't know what he intends to do with the software. Bear in mind we all need some project $'s income otherwise nothing happens. So many people tell me to build stuff and stop talking so much LOL If i had the money i would build everything i thought had a chance of being useful.

Even Bob Boyce has proprietary software which he will kindly sell you for a small fortune with an NDA. No one says you have to use software you can make your own 555's which is not too hard, or buy Les B's boards professional made might cost 150 bucks who knows? If it was to be sold it would be a very modest fee and ship the AVR chip but im guessing.

The reason for going HHO is simple. I have a new Genset 2.2Kw 5HP 4 stroke gas engine. I read and learnt enough over the years to see HHO really has some magic to it. When i see the Xmas video i thought what the heck this i KNOW can work. Most important i have a money back guarantee cos if it doesn't i can sell the genset and the HHO cell and recover most of the outlay. OR keep the stuff, put the cell on the car and keep the genset and run it on anything from Butane, diesel, LPG, HHO mix, gasoline, nat gas etc for emergency use so unlike other projects its not a dead loss. Whatever happens even if i can not loop it the HHO will make it very efficient HHO/Mix

By the way the cell is 21 plate 316L DRYCELL capable of 4-5 LPM on DC approx 1000 watts and 6-7 LPM with HF PWM drive. I run it on reverse osmosis water <4 ppm and just 1 or 2 granules of KOH on HV DC so its like 0.0000000001% KOH

1000 watts will give me 3000 watts within the ICE. Roughly half that 1500-2000 watts will go back as losses and running the cell should leave 1000 watts OU so for the size engine i will be roughly double the German looper IF it works!

I had a LOT of problems with flashbacks, still sorting this out. Things work ok at 1-3 LPM but over that it goes back to the bubbler and its so fking loud i gone deaf and my nerves are shot. LOL

why complicated logic.. for ignition you need simple logic and gearing 2:1

Making complicated 3 phase pwm drivers still havent see any youtube prove of that resonant action...

Feynman · « **Reply #385 on:** March 13, 2011, 05:49:55 AM »

That's because it's really difficult to get the resonant PWM working ... it's based on creating scalar waves, and requires frequency mixing in a toroid... lots of places things can go wrong....

Why bother with the trouble though, especially if you can run generator COP=3 with just a standard series cell with a standard 1phase PWM unit or rectified AC mains

Replicating Boyce TPU is another question entirely

bolt · « **Reply #386 on:** March 13, 2011, 06:07:43 PM »

True this is not anything fancy like a bob Boyce system. HHO production tweaks can be done later but already the system has a COP 3 with basic DC control of the cell.

The logic here is just like a car engine ECU which controls the start sequence and sets the correct timing. While it can be done using gears and cogs its not very elegant and still has no control over engine speed so might as well do everything at the same time using a processor. Once you have proper control over gas production and the timing you got proper control over the engine.

retrod · « **Reply #387 on:** March 13, 2011, 08:45:52 PM »

Bolt, earlier you made mention of using RO water in your electrolyzer. Is there an advantage over using RO water v.s. distilled?

Thx,

RD

bolt · « **Reply #388 on:** March 14, 2011, 02:20:24 AM »

Not really but some places getting access to distilled water is hard to find or very expensive. I'm in the UK and most pharmacies either don't stock it or wont sell more than a very small amount to make up their own medications for dispensing. I never seen it in super markets unlike the US or Caribbean which sell it everywhere. So RO offers a very high purity of water in some cases better than badly produced distilled and its of course a lot cheaper.

You will find RO water leaves the cell running MUCH cleaner with far less by products of city water which contain dozens of trace metals and chlorine, lime etc. This creates a brew and leads to brown crap forming on the cells. Never use those little bottles of spring mountain drinking water in most cases the water quality is MUCH worse than city water unless its been produced through an RO method and has no chlorine and re-mineralisation. This goes for drinking it too!

The standard 5 gallon water tanks used in much of the world -US, South Americas etc is in effect RO water and mostly high purity but make sure it hasn't been chlorinated and re-mineralised.

For HV operation high purity is essential so that cell operates in high resistance DC but rather in inductance mode as a capacitor. But even for normal DC use it will make your cell last a long longer without frothing with crap. BTW good RO water is perfect for use as lead battery water.

retrod · « **Reply #389 on:** March 14, 2011, 04:21:51 AM »

Interesting, thanks for explaining the RO water. Your right, distilled water is available nearly everywhere in the states. The local (city) well water available to me is high in Radium. Before the city switched service to lake water deep breathing of hot shower steam was not recommended. Maybe it would be beneficial in an electrolyzer if demineralized ?

RD

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Author Topic: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output (Read 372633 times)

bolt

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Feynman

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bolt

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ramset

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bolt

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bolt

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bolt

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