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Author Topic: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output  (Read 300718 times)

Offline ramset

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #360 on: March 10, 2011, 06:14:58 PM »
Grizli
quote:
Some people from Italy slaim that this way HHO small amount makes butane have 18 time more BTU !!! ?

------------------------
Can you start another thread for Home heating this way[above quote] or bolts way?

HOT TOPIC Needs to be "experimented"
Thanks
Chet

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Offline Feynman

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #361 on: March 10, 2011, 06:55:26 PM »
@all

It doesn't matter exactly HOW.   

HHO is inherently overunity.  It can be used to run a generator with a 99:1 air/fuel mix.  That is , 400-600W of HHO generation can run a 1kW generator. 

See the research and published articles of Les Banki.  The video that started this thread is real -- you just need to modify the generator to eliminate the waste spark and have variable firing relative to TDC (-40% to 40% TDC).

Basically you can use a Banki/Boyce style series electrolysis cell with about 2V per cell using unfiltered full-rectified mains to split the water, then the HHO output of this cell runs the generator.


Offline Feynman

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #362 on: March 10, 2011, 06:59:18 PM »
From my post at overunityresearch.com



http://pesn.com/2010/12/25/9501743_Anton_HHO_self-running_in_elevator/

Anyway , Both setups (the genset and the water-car) -- assuming both are legit, which I think they are -- are NOT using Stanley Meyer HV-type water splitting, nor Bob Boyce type resonant water splitting... yet still are producing 2-3L/min of high quality HHO. (This is from measurements).  If 3L-6L / min can run an engine under certain circumstances, we need to rethink our assumptions .  There are possibilities to why.... perhaps HHO is in a slightly different molecular configuration after splitting and recombination (perhaps it is some sort of linear, complex, or resonant ionic or hydrogen bonding of H2 and O2,  rather than the standard SP3 hybridized orbitals in source unsplit water, or the 2:1 molar ratio of diatomic gasses in the official knowledge)  .  It doesn't matter why if it works, assuming it does (as I have not tested personally, but am in contact with people who have).

For the electrolysis, the distance between plates should be 3mm.  Current density should be <30-40mA per cm^2 of the plates.  Voltage per cell should not exceed 2V.

A small 2.5HP genset can run on 3L/min hydroxy when of high quality and diluted with 99% air , 1% HHO.  The power consumption should be around 500-600W to split the water, but off a 2.5HP generator i think the output is more like 1kW.

 More info to come over the weekend, this is just a quick overview.  I haven't tested this method personally, but I will.

PS

That 3L-6L/min is from a 60cell /120cell series electroliser (fed from the 120VAC/240VAC mains through full-wave rectifier) is more than sufficient to run a small generator to close the loop.  HHO is burns 1000 times faster than gasoline -- it actually detonates.   

All that needs to be done apparently, to replicate these closed loop HHO setups, is to make modifications to cause the ignition spark to fire somewhere between -40% TDC and +40% TDC and remove the firing of the waste spark.   Thank you .

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=746.0
---

Just ignore Farrah Day and MileHigh, they are paid disinformers.

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #362 on: March 10, 2011, 06:59:18 PM »
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Offline grizli

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #363 on: March 10, 2011, 07:34:59 PM »
@all

It doesn't matter exactly HOW.   

HHO is inherently overunity.  It can be used to run a generator with a 99:1 air/fuel mix.  That is , 400-600W of HHO generation can run a 1kW generator. 

See the research and published articles of Les Banki.  The video that started this thread is real -- you just need to modify the generator to eliminate the waste spark and have variable firing relative to TDC (-40% to 40% TDC).

Basically you can use a Banki/Boyce style series electrolysis cell with about 2V per cell using unfiltered full-rectified mains to split the water, then the HHO output of this cell runs the generator.

Dry cell seems more safer, but BB cell makes above Faraday with just DC

What about claims that detonation destroys engine quickly ? Can anyone prove long term HHO run for small generator and engine condition?

Offline Feynman

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #364 on: March 10, 2011, 08:11:24 PM »
Well there is speculation that the HHO implodes first before it explodes, because one of Les Banki's collegues found that the most efficient ignition point was *before* TDC, which would suggest implosion before explosion. 

In other words, some people's experimental evidence suggests that the most efficient point of ignition is prior to TDC.

In terms of long term effects on the generator, I have no idea, but I'll be happy to speculate!

There are way less corrosive gases during HHO ignition (there is no corrosive SOx or NOx produced), *but*, that said, the pressures may exceed the limit of the cylinders.  So it might be trade off.

Personally , I don't care if it halves the life span of my generator, especially if I can have homebrew OU running off of water with no CO/CO2 output.  You don't even have to worry about the exhaust killing you.     

But sure it might reduce the lifespan.  Who knows?  The problem I'm having now is trying to decide what sort of generator will be cheapest and easiest to modify.  It'd be nice to have fully computer controlled ignition so I could do something like

bool bWasteSpark = false;
double bFiringAngle = -0.25 * PI;

but I know it won't be this easy.

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #364 on: March 10, 2011, 08:11:24 PM »
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Offline bolt

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #365 on: March 10, 2011, 08:26:59 PM »
Quote
I know that some people completely safe  use HHO dry cell under 30 psi to remove foam and bubles and make better liquid flow(without buble saturation).
so it is claimed that its safe to operate cell at 30 psi level , which also increase HHO production. Remember Even Stanley Meyer had his cells under pressure.

Yes people have done this but its VERY dangerous. In explosion event the  power is magnitudes higher then low pressure HHO and nor is it necessary to run pressurised because the engine will take it to 160 PSI in any case in a controlled manor.

Quote
If HHO COP is above 3 inside gas engine, why closed loops are announced so late ?

Mainly becuase of the internet over the last 10 years has sent research into a race reaching more people to conduct their own experiments but the process of HHO can be used as an OU event has been known since the early 1900's.

Quote
Classic gas engine has les than 30 % eff.. maybe HHO works cooler and eff is higher.

Its true gasoline engine is very bad efficiency but here we are talking about HHO. However in a car engine used with gasoline with such massive losses usually accepted as the norm it takes very little HHO to increase from say efficiency  from 25% to 35%. Now you have a standard small 100Kw engine providing an additional 10kw of power that would otherwise be wasted as heat!  So many people only think of the energy going into the cell but its what happens to HHO after it leaves the cell leads to OU or at least much greater efficiently when used in car engine. It doesn't take much to realise if you have increased MPG by say 30% that is a LOT of KW's been saved that would have been wasted yet the cell is only perhaps 100 watts.

Quote
First page of this topic, original "german video" "self running generator in elevator" , do I see it clear , but it seems that HHO tube goes directly into engine WITHOUT any air? So this would man engine works at 100% HHO , am I wrong here? BB , Les Banki and all others claim 99% air and 1% hho is great ratio.

The 3/4" pipe going into the engine is basically "wide open throttle" with a 1/4" HHO mixer pipe.

Quote
I have never seen that simple PWM without any "back emf effect" (inductor needed) can produce greater eff. PWM justs makes current to be at your own desire.

PWM requires critical frequency tuning for pure resonance. Most PWM's don't allow for this or people just buy standard off the shelf devices and add them only for current control.


Quote
Question is HOW to get 3 X Faraday COP? You say that 3 COP is HHO inside gas engine. So we need another 3 COP above Faraday for cell itself


Is there any 100% proved 100% every time successfull method for making HHO cell that can have 3X or more faraday ? (using pwm)

COP 3 appears within the combustion chamber so its loop-able as seen in the video. In case be enhanced a lot more using tuned  PWM and ultrasonic charged water injection system. By passing the fogged water through two plates like a capacitor charged to 25Kv the droplets becomes charged and become part of the fuel process.

Quote
Now HHO heater?

Maybe just what is needed is that we heat some material above some point... I made experiemnt myself and heating water cointaner = NO OU., but maybe if we heat piece of metal that becomes glowing we get OU (process you described)
Do you have any more data about Rocks needed ?

You can not use metal as the metal itself will run with gain adding to more electrons creating runway heat condition even tungsten will burn within HHO so whatever metal you use will  become molten. Not so good for a heater.

I don't know what rocks work best only those with high crystal structure perhaps like quartz and stuff. Several patents on this technology including Korean company making HHO home heaters WAY over unity.

Quote
What about HHO and Propane /butane mixture. Some people from Italy slaim that this way HHO small amount makes butane have 18 time more BTU !!! ?

I believe that to be true for the same reason as gasoline engine butane is poor burning and small amount of HHO provides a massive increase in heat output.  Again if you already have a supply of fuel HHO will provide a huge boost. Use a butane space heater and inject HHO around the existing burner will send heat from a dull red glow to bright yellow like a jet engine.

Offline bolt

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #366 on: March 10, 2011, 08:43:00 PM »
Dry cell seems more safer, but BB cell makes above Faraday with just DC

What about claims that detonation destroys engine quickly ? Can anyone prove long term HHO run for small generator and engine condition?

Many people have been running gensets for hundreds if not thousands of hours on pure HHO. Fact is the engine runs a lot colder. This was known fact from HHO use during the 2nd world war. Cars, tanks and all kinds of things ran on HHO mix so it not a new technology just suppressed from mainstream use.

 You can put your hand on the muffler its just warm.  Problems occur only when the timing has not been corrected properly to run on HHO. When car manufactures looked at hydrogen fuel powered cars they ran dozens of test lasting  years and were surprised the engines did not require any mechanical changes or coatings to support long life operation. Any stories you hear about blown pistons is because the timing was miles out to support proper HHO operation.

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #366 on: March 10, 2011, 08:43:00 PM »
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Offline haithar

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #367 on: March 10, 2011, 08:44:03 PM »
Well there is speculation that the HHO implodes first before it explodes, because one of Les Banki's collegues found that the most efficient ignition point was *before* TDC, which would suggest implosion before explosion. 
The implosion thing has already been extensively tested, the main problem is that this forum is a mess and you cannot find all information in one place.

http://www.youtube.com/user/erzketzer1#p/u

Offline grizli

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #368 on: March 10, 2011, 09:26:30 PM »
I really cant fins and PWM that actually works. Only that has potential so far is BB pwm but it does not work every  time, people who got resonant action are few.

Ravi cell has potential. But its all far from required 30-80 LPM for smaller engine (car engine).

maybe best way is to use gas generator , battery charging and electric motor..

Sorry for going off topic :D

Bolt what is exactly the best PWM cell you have found out so far ?

You mean water steam made by piezzoelectric , that come through HV plates ..

I think its NOT about water resonance its about ELECTRIC series RLC circuit :D


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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #368 on: March 10, 2011, 09:26:30 PM »
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Offline Feynman

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #369 on: March 10, 2011, 09:51:51 PM »
The implosion thing has already been extensively tested, the main problem is that this forum is a mess and you cannot find all information in one place.

http://www.youtube.com/user/erzketzer1#p/u

So what's the answer... does it implode , or is it still a mystery why sometimes it's best to ignite prior to TDC?

That youtube channel looks good but it's all in German!

Offline Feynman

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #370 on: March 10, 2011, 09:59:18 PM »
I really cant fins and PWM that actually works. Only that has potential so far is BB pwm but it does not work every  time, people who got resonant action are few.

Ravi cell has potential. But its all far from required 30-80 LPM for smaller engine (car engine).

maybe best way is to use gas generator , battery charging and electric motor..

Sorry for going off topic :D

Bolt what is exactly the best PWM cell you have found out so far ?

You mean water steam made by piezzoelectric , that come through HV plates ..

I think its NOT about water resonance its about ELECTRIC series RLC circuit :D

@grizli

There's not just one 'correct' method to split water!

There is more than one method to get quality HHO, to run a generator. 

1) There is the Bob Boyce method , which requires VERY GOOD amplified square waves.  You can't just run a PWM into an IRF540 and expect it to work -- you need a good fast mosfet driver, high currents, and smoothing caps to get nice strong amplified square waves with fast rise and fall times.  Then you need to find the right fundamental frequency.

Some garbage fly-by-night PWM unit is not going to cut it -- you need quality for BB method, and it needs to be tuned.  You need the right amount of current density going into a large series cell.  The best way to do it is have a SINGLE clock (square wave) and then calculate f/2 and f/4 using a divider / shift register.  Then amplify those pulses and drive your toroidal transformer for mixing, ala Bob Boyce.  You want low duty cycle.  This is complicated, obviously.

2) Another method the the Stanley Meyer HV capacitance method.  This is different, and also complicated.  There are details if you examine his patents.

3) A third method is JUST run full-rectified DC mains into a series cell so you get ~2V per cell.  This is not as efficient as the other methods, but IT WILL RUN A GENERATOR OVERUNITY.

So there are lots of methods to get the HHO.  My point here is just to bring attention to the fact that there are a number of ways to do it, but many are INHERENTLY OVERUNITY. There is not just one correct way to get overunity HHO.  There are lots of ways.

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #370 on: March 10, 2011, 09:59:18 PM »
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Offline haithar

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #371 on: March 10, 2011, 10:00:14 PM »
So what's the answer... does it implode , or is it still a mystery why sometimes it's best to ignite prior to TDC?

That youtube channel looks good but it's all in German!
Well the pictures speak for themself, its only the title which is german.
50% HHO + 50% Air:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCLIN2bnVYI
There seems to be an explosion, not really an implosion.

Pure HHO however will of course lower the pressure in a reaction chamber as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smugB3UNkh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgnD8xJy4Kk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOv97mCOhDw
Before the pressure gets lower there seems to be an explosion effect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soEwvDuPi3U

The last videos are from the Anton guys btw.

Offline grizli

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #372 on: March 10, 2011, 10:12:42 PM »
@grizli

There's not just one 'correct' method to split water!

There is more than one method to get quality HHO, to run a generator. 

1) There is the Bob Boyce method , which requires VERY GOOD amplified square waves.  You can't just run a PWM into an IRF540 and expect it to work -- you need a good fast mosfet driver, high currents, and smoothing caps to get nice strong amplified square waves with fast rise and fall times.  Then you need to find the right fundamental frequency.

Some garbage fly-by-night PWM unit is not going to cut it -- you need quality for BB method, and it needs to be tuned.  You need the right amount of current density going into a large series cell.  The best way to do it is have a SINGLE clock (square wave) and then calculate f/2 and f/4 using a divider / shift register.  Then amplify those pulses and drive your toroidal transformer for mixing, ala Bob Boyce.  You want low duty cycle.  This is complicated, obviously.

2) Another method the the Stanley Meyer HV capacitance method.  This is different, and also complicated.  There are details if you examine his patents.

3) A third method is JUST run full-rectified DC mains into a series cell so you get ~2V per cell.  This is not as efficient as the other methods, but IT WILL RUN A GENERATOR OVERUNITY.

So there are lots of methods to get the HHO.  My point here is just to bring attention to the fact that there are a number of ways to do it, but many are INHERENTLY OVERUNITY. There is not just one correct way to get overunity HHO.  There are lots of ways.

Like I said people who bought BB circuit had problems finding resonance...
I am not new to this matter, and have read for years all that was available. 
And I think that is NOT about water resonance its circuit resonance , yes and maybe all together.
I do not trust patents that much, they are just genera information not enough for replication. Good example is Stanley Meyer !!

Offline Feynman

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #373 on: March 10, 2011, 11:48:22 PM »
Well the pictures speak for themself, its only the title which is german.
50% HHO + 50% Air:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCLIN2bnVYI
There seems to be an explosion, not really an implosion.

Pure HHO however will of course lower the pressure in a reaction chamber as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smugB3UNkh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgnD8xJy4Kk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOv97mCOhDw
Before the pressure gets lower there seems to be an explosion effect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soEwvDuPi3U

The last videos are from the Anton guys btw.

Okay thanks Haithar, these are great !  Perhaps there was another reason that it needed to ignite prior to TDC.    I think maybe the best way to get HHO working with a generator is just to have tunable firing point, and pick ignition point relative to TDC which gives best performance for a specific generator. 

Offline Feynman

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Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #374 on: March 10, 2011, 11:52:50 PM »
Like I said people who bought BB circuit had problems finding resonance...
I am not new to this matter, and have read for years all that was available. 
And I think that is NOT about water resonance its circuit resonance , yes and maybe all together.
I do not trust patents that much, they are just genera information not enough for replication. Good example is Stanley Meyer !!

I agree the circuit resonance is important too, and yes, I agree you can't replicate Stanley Meyer off the patents.   In terms of Bob Boyce, I think that anyone who is not using an actual Hex Controller might have problems replicating... (remember the Hex Controller had like 40 smoothing caps to get good square/PWM waves)...

I will be doing my own experiments in the next couple of months, building my own PWM controller, and I will compare BB PWM pulsed DC performance to rectified mains performance in a series cell.   Hopefully I can replicate BB setup -- I didn't say it was easy!  Only that it was possible...


Have you seen Les Banki's PWM circuit?  It uses a synchronized clock of f/2 and f/4 to make sure the frequencies match exactly.

Cheers,
Feynman

 

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