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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: valveman on May 11, 2006, 07:38:30 PM

Title: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: valveman on May 11, 2006, 07:38:30 PM
Imagine for a moment a thin material capable of enitely blocking the magnetic field of a pernament magnet.  You would now be able to control the magnetic flux.  Doing so would change how we build motors.  This would result is a truly Overunity motor.  Does such a material exist?  I don't know!  If it does, then think of the possibilities.

Something to think about and investigate.

Valveman
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: Gregory on May 11, 2006, 09:03:13 PM
Superconductive materials are exist.
If I know right the magnetic field can't go through these materials, and don't interact with them.
The problem is the operating temperature. At this time there is no published material, which works as a superconductor on ambient temperature.
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: FreeEnergy on May 11, 2006, 09:06:13 PM
yes i have been looking for the same info for my wheel project. no luck yet :/
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,894.0.html

i am sure if i can turn on/off magnetic field i can make the wheel keep on self turning.
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: valveman on May 11, 2006, 09:33:13 PM
Lead is a very dense metal. Has anyone tried to see if the magnetic fields are attenuated in front of a small sheet of lead?  I have not tried this as yet but even if a small reduction in field intensity may be enough to overcome equillibrium which is the enemy of so many designs.

Valveman
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: _GonZo_ on May 11, 2006, 10:34:20 PM
Magnetic "shields" exists, any diamagnetic material can be used as a magetic field.

Pyrolytyc graphite is probably the best diamagnetic material easy to find.
As well Bismuth is easy to find but not so diamagnetic.

Of course supercondctors are the big diamagnetic source but they have to be at cryogenic temperature to work.

Diamagnetic materials can be used as a magnetic shield, but actually they are not so, they just act like an inverse magnet, what I mean they are repeled from any magneic field independently if it is S or N so they just act like a reversed magnet in comparison to the magnet they are close to.
That means that althought they can be used as a magnetic field there is no posibility to create with them a diferencial in potencial in a closed system. (lets say a wheel with magnets and partialy "shealed")
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: lancaIV on May 11, 2006, 11:00:25 PM
ON/OFF-Permanent Magnet/-ic field-switch :
www.ibsmagnet.de/   Electrical Holding Magnet
as alternative !
S
  dL
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: JackH on May 12, 2006, 05:31:21 AM
Hello valveman,

The total basses of my invention is the fact that I have learned how to turn a permanent magnet on/off.  It can be done.

I can take any permanent magnet no mater how big it is or how strong it is and turn it on/off just by using 8 watts of electric power.  This has worked out using 1/2 in. dia. to 3 in. dia. rare earth magnets.  Just 8 watts of electric power no matter how big the magnet is.   The electric valve I invented not only turns a permanent magnet on/off with 8 watts but it also amplifys the permanent magnets power by four times.

These valves were used in the overunity motor that is running at over 500% efficiency.

Latter,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2006, 09:23:09 AM
Hi JackH, can you please post a picture of your motor and more infos ? Many thanks.
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: valveman on May 12, 2006, 08:09:22 PM
That sounds pretty cool JackH.

I'd love to hear more.

Valveman
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: JackH on May 13, 2006, 04:58:31 AM
Hello hartiberlin,

Yes I would be glad to post pictures of even the new big motor that I am currently wirking, however I have no idea how to post pictures on this message board.

Can you give me instructions on how to post pictures?


I'll upload them tomorrow if I can find out how.

I can also give out some details but not much.  I have strict orders not to post any info about the motors from my investers.  And at this time I cannot aford to loose them or there money.

I also have created a generator out of this electro magnetic valve that I tested to be outputing at about 98% efficiency.    I'll send a picture of it too if you want it.

Later,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: FreeEnergy on May 13, 2006, 05:18:02 AM
go here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,7.0.html
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: gn0stik on May 23, 2006, 03:48:38 AM
There is a material in hard drives, after having played with them a bit today, that I noticed had a semi-shielding effect to very strong neo mags. It's the material to which the magnets inside hard drives are glued. 1/8 of an inch of it allowed me to "shield" iron components from the magnetic field. Only very small items would stick. although the magnet was directly attached to the other side. Neither the sides or edges of the material would allow me to stick a small screw to it, it would just slide off. However the magnets would pull the same item directly to them if exposed to the open face of it from over an inch away. It would however allow me to attract another strong magnet. I thought they were steel, however if it were the pole, although weaker, would simply transfer to the steel if that were the case.  Perhaps this material could be used to shield a rotor with an iron front edge on it, on a SMOT type motor to overcome the sticking point. This could perhaps be done mechanically somehow as on a torbay motor(ramp/wheel). Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Any thoughts? 
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: gn0stik on May 23, 2006, 04:20:06 PM
The magnets in a hard drive are for moving the actuator arm back and forth via a coil on the arm itself ,to allow the read heads to move in and out over the surface of the platters.

The material I'm talking about has the magnets for moving the coil in a sandwich configuration above and below the actuator arm, which resembles a rocker arm laying on it's side with finely wound coil on the back of it. (these would make excellent stators in the torbay device, if you could get enough similar ones to make a model). At any rate, these magnets are probably 42s if not higher. VERY strong. And sandwiching them between these materials negates one side of the magnet's field almost completely. Hence why in spite of the STRONG magnets in a hard drive they don't emit a strong magnetic field outside the case of the drive itself. They are perfectly capable of doing so at their strength.  Makes me wonder if the material is bismuth or diamagnetic graphite. But that would eventually wear down the magnet's poles so.... I'm not sure. At any rate I'll try to give you an idea below of the configuration.


________________   <---plate of ?
-------------------  <---magnet
#############  <---coil
-------------------  <---magnet
________________  <---plate of ?



magnet shape       _____________
                        /       N     S      \
                       / N   ----------  S \
                      /___/               \___\

obviously it's much more rounded than this, and it's actually more of 1/3 of a circle than half.
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: gn0stik on May 26, 2006, 01:06:20 AM
^^^Wierd

I don't remember typing that.... At any rate,

If you can peel some of that material off and stick it on that cut, it would probably help alot.

Exactly, perhaps you could eliminate the pushing of the stators back down altogether, and allow gravity to do that job instead of the topcap.
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: z_p_e on July 13, 2006, 02:46:53 PM
Hi Jack, Nice work on your motors!

I have a couple questions about the magnetic valve that I think you can answer without putting your patent application in jeoprody.

1) By what percentage is the magnet's field reduced when in the "OFF" state?

2) You originally stated that the means of turning a magnet OFF was by way of applying a ~180kHz square wave across the magnet (perpendicular to the field). The connections to the magnet had to be conductive, and as close to the Bloch wall as possible. Subsequently, you stated that the same effect can be produced by 2 other means, namely with a DC voltage, and by a mechanical means of some sort. My queston is: Which of the 3 means is the most FUNDAMENTAL, or BASIC (simplest) way to achieve this effect in the magnet?

3) Which of the 3 means above are in your patent application? All 3?

Comment: There must be much more involved than just applying an AC or DC voltage across a magnet to turn it off, otherwise, you have already given away the secret. Since no one has succeeded with the simple test, AND you have stated that you would not reveal all until you receive the patents, I assume I am correct. I surmize then, that it is pointless to experiment with the simple test, as the real means has yet to be revealed, and thus would be fruitless.

Regards,
z_p_e
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: JackH on July 14, 2006, 02:06:44 AM
Hello z_p_e,

""2) You originally stated that the means of turning a magnet OFF was by way of applying a ~180kHz square wave across the magnet (perpendicular to the field).""

The above quote was not any of my idea.  I did not talk about using ~180kHz square wave across the magnet, that must have been someone else.  I have only two ways to turn on/off a permanent, one is by dc power(8 watts), the other is by means of a mechanical lever.  Both have been patent applied for. The dv voltage is not applied across the magnet, this I think would totally destroy the permanent magnet.

Later,,,,JackH


Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: z_p_e on July 14, 2006, 04:21:22 AM
Hi Jack, thanks for your response.

I see that I have made a mistake in thinking that this topic, as well as the "Permanent Magnet: ON/OFF Mechanism..." topic were speaking of the same inventor. Being that you had posted in that topic, I assumed it was a more or less duplicate topic. I wonder if others made the same erroneous assumption.

Anyway, that definately cleared some things up...thank you.

You mentioned that 8 watts is required to do your switching, and again I'm wondering, what is the percentage reduction in the field?

You also mentioned that your method increases the strength of the magnet by 4X. In this "ON" state, are you still using 8 Watts of power? In other words, when using the DC voltage means of switchng the magnetic field, is 8 Watts of power required for both the "ON" AND "OFF" states?

Regards,
z_p_e
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: JackH on July 15, 2006, 03:27:37 AM
Hello z_p_e,

Well I'm sorry but I just do not know what you mean when you say, what is the percentage reduction in the field?

8 Watts of power is only needed for the ON cycle. No power is used during the off state, in fact it gives power back from back EMF during the off state. Currently I am just feeding this back EMF to ground through a capaciter, but it will be used in the future to help run the motor.  During the off state the magnetic field is at about 99% gone.

Later,,,,JackH

Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: z_p_e on July 15, 2006, 04:10:39 AM
Hi Jack. Sorry for the confusion.

What I mean by the ON state, is the default state of every magnet, with no influence to try and increase or decrease it's field by some external effect. In other words, take any normal magnet in your hand...this magnet its in it's ON state.

Now take that same magnet, influence it by some external effect (such as your invention), and the magnet's field is either reduced significantly, or eliminated all together....the magnet is now in what I have been calling an "OFF" state.

I am referring to the state the magnet's field is in, not when you are using the electric power (8 Watts) to achieve your effect.

What I meant by percentage reduction of the field, could be stated by a ratio such as: "100% - Boff/Bon", the magnetic field ratio of OFF to ON, taken from 100%. You have already answered that by saying 99%, thanks.

Quote
8 Watts of power is only needed for the ON cycle. No power is used during the off state


Having said what I meant by ON and OFF, and reference to the magnet vs. applied power, does your quote still stand, or is it now reversed?

Taking a stab:

[400% magnetic field strength, magnet ON state] = no electrical power required or applied
[1% magnetic field strength, magnet OFF state] = 8 Watts electrical power applied to achieve effect

Is this correct?

Regards,
Darren
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: hartiberlin on July 15, 2006, 06:28:50 AM
No power is used during the off state, in fact it gives power back from back EMF during the off state. ....
During the off state the magnetic field is at about 99% gone.

Later,,,,JackH


Ahh Jack, now I have understood your design.
You norrmally have shorted out the flux of the statormagnet
via a shortout core at the OFF state, no power required.

And then use an 8 Watts energy pulse via a coil around this
shortout core to redirect the flux
from the shortout core to a different core, where your rotor
magnet is driven , right ?

Looks like an "inverted" Flynn design then...
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: Mica Busch on July 15, 2006, 09:24:34 PM
No power is used during the off state, in fact it gives power back from back EMF during the off state. ....
During the off state the magnetic field is at about 99% gone.

Later,,,,JackH


Ahh Jack, now I have understood your design.
You norrmally have shorted out the flux of the statormagnet
via a shortout core at the OFF state, no power required.

And then use an 8 Watts energy pulse via a coil around this
shortout core to redirect the flux
from the shortout core to a different core, where your rotor
magnet is driven , right ?

Looks like an "inverted" Flynn design then...
Regards, Stefan.

Actually, he previously mentioned that flynn's design could not be used for his purposes, because a motor requires an air-gap, and the flynn device requires direct contact or the magnetism has nowhere to 'flow'.

He refers to the use of a 'valve' to turn the magnets on and off, therefore I would think of it as a sort of field constriction, an analog of the water and air valves we are familiar with...
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: JackH on July 16, 2006, 04:21:37 AM
Hello hartiberlin,

You are close, but you still do not have the valve correct yet.   I have allready tryed what you have talked about.   Works but not very efficient.

Keep up the good work and you may get it.

Later,,,JackH
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: z_p_e on July 16, 2006, 06:25:51 AM
Quote
Actually, he previously mentioned that flynn's design could not be used for his purposes, because a motor requires an air-gap, and the flynn device requires direct contact or the magnetism has nowhere to 'flow'.

This is incorrect. Flynn has already adapted his method for rotation, see his website. Direct contact is not required. Magnetism will jump an air gap to flow through a higher permeable medium.

Quote
He refers to the use of a 'valve' to turn the magnets on and off, therefore I would think of it as a sort of field constriction, an analog of the water and air valves we are familiar with...

I would be cautious about assuming that "valve" really means "valve" in this case. Jack may have chosen the term "valve" because the end result is the same. I do not believe it is possible to cut off the flow of flux between the poles of a permanent magnet. Constricted or not, and diverted or not, the total flux flowing from pole to pole has to remain constant. Probably a more appropriate term for what Jack is doing is "switching" the magnet's field like a SPDT switch for flux, using a flux diversion means such as what Flynn et al are doing.

Jack, as you have said that Stefan was close in his analysis, I am assuming that mine is reversed.

As you have stated that your method increases the field strength by 400%, and that your method works for any size and strength of magnet, one must assume that the applied DC pulse (which is always 8 Watts) for the ON state, is not aiding the permanent magnet's field in any way.

Darren
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: Mica Busch on July 16, 2006, 03:39:09 PM
Quote
Actually, he previously mentioned that flynn's design could not be used for his purposes, because a motor requires an air-gap, and the flynn device requires direct contact or the magnetism has nowhere to 'flow'.

This is incorrect. Flynn has already adapted his method for rotation, see his website. Direct contact is not required. Magnetism will jump an air gap to flow through a higher permeable medium.

Ah! I see that now...  I think what I meant was that with an air-gap, the flux of the magnet wont be diverted unless power is applied, when power is switched off, the flux returns to its normal state. With direct contact, I would assume [assume!] that the flux would stay diverted, now that is has an easy path to follow - air is much more difficult to traverse than metal.
But as I have no experimental proofs to establish this, I cannot be sure.

And yes, the valve analog probably was not the best, but again my knowledge is limited as to the true workings of a magnet... It is intruiging though, a method to 'turn off' a magnet either electrically or mechanically... What comes to mind is a 'sheath' around the magnet periphery, not on the faces, but there to 'short circuit' and concentrate the flux lines into the sheath so there is minimal outer interaction...
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: nightwynd on July 17, 2006, 08:44:55 PM
sorry to interrupt the train of thought - got into this thread a little late. The material in the hard drive that you were referring to is called mu metal. There are many companies around the web that can fabricate it - it also comes by the roll... mostly used for EM shielding, but apparantly can be used on Permanent magnets if it's thick enough. It also has some very interesting properties when hooked up to an ELF generator.

2 cents - spent.

Sincerely,
nightwynd
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: romerouk on December 17, 2010, 09:51:03 PM
Anyone can replicate this setup and I hope I will get some confirmations soon. Do the simple testing, first from the instructions in the picture below and I am waiting for someone to replicate it soon.
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: aaron5120 on December 19, 2010, 06:24:47 AM
Dear Romerouk,
I am willing to replicate your idea. Can U please provide a little bit more data of the setup? How many turns and gauge of the magnet wires used in the Mumetal core, and number of turns and gauge in the pickup coil?
Also if you can give hints about the frequency used for the pulsing, is it all right a 30% duty cycle of 50KHz square wave pulse? 5V peak to peak?
Aaron5120
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: e2matrix on December 19, 2010, 08:19:05 AM
Good to see you around romerouk.  As far as frequency goes it would probably be best to take any advice romerouk has but if he doesn't get back around here soon you might try something around 180 Khz as I had some info saved from someone else that this frequency worked in turning off a magnet.  Although at 180 Khz it was likely a different setup using solid state switching.  It appears the setup above uses a relay which I'm sure can't turn on and off at that frequency. 
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: romerouk on December 19, 2010, 03:28:09 PM
Dear Romerouk,
I am willing to replicate your idea. Can U please provide a little bit more data of the setup? How many turns and gauge of the magnet wires used in the Mumetal core, and number of turns and gauge in the pickup coil?
Also if you can give hints about the frequency used for the pulsing, is it all right a 30% duty cycle of 50KHz square wave pulse? 5V peak to peak?
Aaron5120
Hi,
I have used different gauge and different size of wire. All depends of the magnet used also the size of your mumetal core.Better is to try yourself with different turns and size, depending of what u have. Build only one coil only and after attaching the magnet to the core make sure that the magnetic field is not penetrating the core.Hang a small piece of metal at some distance from the coil(eg. 1cm) then power the coil.Use small voltage, starting with 1 volt and see what you need to transform the core into an electromagnet but just enough to allow the magnet field to pass thru.Too much voltage will cancel the effect.
I am attaching below a picture that can explain more.
Success all!
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: luishan on December 19, 2010, 08:00:50 PM
Thank you for your efforts to share with us about the device.
Would show us working prototype on Youtube with explain.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: gyulasun on December 19, 2010, 09:06:10 PM
Hi Romero,

I think the 'ultimate' setup would be which does not let out any magnetic flux from the permanent magnet when the coil is unpowered and it would add the flux both from the permanent and the electromagnet when the coil is powered, right?

IF this is the goal, then here is a drawing which seems to accomplish just that:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4624.msg96814#msg96814

A permanent magnet is fully embedded in a soft iron core and a coil is wound onto the outside of this core.  When there is no current in the coil, the permanent magnet flux goes inside the core as shown in the upper drawing.  When the current is on, with the correct polarity, then the flux from both the coil and the permanent magnet is summed, this means a strong field appears axially on the left and right ends of the core, as shown in the lower drawing.

What do you think?

EDIT:  I think, even a soft iron piece of mumetal or transformer lamination would be worth considering, formed into a U shape to insert a magnet into it.

Gyula
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: XS-NRG on December 19, 2010, 09:30:38 PM

What do you think?

Gyula

I think like so:
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: romerouk on December 19, 2010, 09:54:04 PM
Hi Romero,

I think the 'ultimate' setup would be which does not let out any magnetic flux from the permanent magnet when the coil is unpowered and it would add the flux both from the permanent and the electromagnet when the coil is powered, right?

IF this is the goal, then here is a drawing which seems to accomplish just that:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4624.msg96814#msg96814

A permanent magnet is fully embedded in a soft iron core and a coil is wound onto the outside of this core.  When there is no current in the coil, the permanent magnet flux goes inside the core as shown in the upper drawing.  When the current is on, with the correct polarity, then the flux from both the coil and the permanent magnet is summed, this means a strong field appears axially on the left and right ends of the core, as shown in the lower drawing.

What do you think?

EDIT:  I think, even a soft iron piece of mumetal or transformer lamination, formed into a U shape to insert a magnet into it.

Gyula
I think that if we use your suggested link we can get some simmilar effects but having poles connected thru the outside iron core most of the flux will be locked inside that core. In my setup we push the flux forward. I have been working all day to get the best performance for the minimum power applied to the L1 and L2 coils. Right now I am using 2 mumetal rods, 12mm diameter/6mm long.I have tried different number of turns, today I have 15 turns for each coil and I get best performance with 1.2volts/0.540ma input and  output 61v/0.192ma, 58.9kHz. The magnets used are 10mm diameter/5mm . I am going to order bigger mumetal rods then I can use bigger magnets hopping to get better performance.
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: MasterPlaster on December 20, 2010, 04:11:55 PM
This is how its done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_UHixEy7xU
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: romerouk on December 23, 2010, 03:17:43 PM
Below are some strange scope shots from the output of my device running at 59.2kHz
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: aaron5120 on December 23, 2010, 04:28:55 PM
Below are some strange scope shots from the output of my device running at 59.2kHz
Romerouk,
Indeed the scope shots are odd. Is that a Dual channel Oscilloscope? Can you tell where did you put the probe in the circuit? I see strong ringing and some source oscillation ocurring.
I am waiting for the Mumetal rods to arrive for the replication attempt.
I have the Neo magnets already, and the magnet wires and FETs. I can generate whatever wave and duty cycle I want with my Arbitrary Waveform Generator, and I got 2 Dual channel Oscilloscopes for checking the Input instantaneous and output instantaneous power of your idea.
aaron5120
Title: Re: Turning on and off a Pernament Magnet Field
Post by: romerouk on December 23, 2010, 04:35:59 PM
Romerouk,
Indeed the scope shots are odd. Is that a Dual channel Oscilloscope? Can you tell where did you put the probe in the circuit? I see strong ringing and some source oscillation ocurring.
I am waiting for the Mumetal rods to arrive for the replication attempt.
I have the Neo magnets already, and the magnet wires and FETs. I can generate whatever wave and duty cycle I want with my Arbitrary Waveform Generator, and I got 2 Dual channel Oscilloscopes for checking the Input instantaneous and output instantaneous power of your idea.
aaron5120
It is a  Dual channel Oscilloscope but the strange thing is that I have connected only one channel. The probe is connected in parallel with the load (15w/240v bulb).