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Author Topic: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!  (Read 7894 times)

Offline gravityblock

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Here's something to think about.

V = 12
R = 961
I = 0.01248
L = 0.961 - 1.0H
t = 0.001 - 0.00104

Fast rise time. The inductance is the inverse of the resistance. TC will remain relatively constant throughout all 5 TC's. Total rise time for current is ~ 0.005 to reach the maximum current of 0.01248 allowed by resistance. Maximum current is reached at the highest point in inductance. At higher RPM's, the Maximum current is reached in less time due to the inductance varying at the rate of the RPM, thus the system is more efficient at higher RPM. Basicly the total time for the current to reach it's maximum value allowed by the resistance will occur faster than the TC at higher RPM's, thus a "time variant field" for the Orbo Effect. This is a gain in energy.

GB

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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2010, 01:40:10 AM »
Originally posted in another thread
Quote from: TinselKoala
Something else to think about is that the equation you are using doesn't apply to dynamically changing inductances.

I agree, but not in this case.  Compare the first TC to the fifth TC and you will see the TC's are relativley constant, thus your argument is based on false premesis.  The change in inductance is varying at the rate of the RPM.  At higher RPM's, the changes in inductance will vary at a faster rate, and since the TC is based on L/R and L is increasing which means "t" is decreasing at a faster rate proportional to the RPM.  At a minimum RPM, the current will reach it's maximum current allowed by the resistor in less time than the ~0.005 of the total of 5 TC's.  Any further increases in RPM is a gain in energy proportional to the increase above this minimal RPM, which occurs at a low RPM.  This is a "time varying field" effect and is responsible for the gain in energy.

GB

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2010, 03:41:15 AM »
V = 12
R = 961
I = 0.01248
L = 0.961 - 1.0H
TC = 0.001 - 0.00104

Assuming the inductance is increasing 7.8mH according to a RPM equal to the TC, then we have the below.

V / L = Constant rate of change of current
12 / 0.961 = 12.486 in 0.001 seconds
4.44 / 0.968 = 4.586 in 0.001007 seconds
1.6248 / 0.9758 = 1.665 in 0.001015 seconds
0.601176 / 0.9836 = 0.611 in 0.001023 seconds
0.22243512 / 0.9914 = 0.224 in 0.001031 seconds. Rate of change of current almost equals voltage, thus resistance losses.

Assuming the inductance is increasing 23.4mH according to a RPM at a rate 3 times faster than the TC, then we have the below.

V / L = Constant rate of change of current
12/ 0.961 = 12.486 in 0.001 seconds
4.44 / 0.9844 = 4.510 in 0.001024 seconds
1.6248 / 1.0074 = 1.612 in 0.001048 seconds.  Inductance gain at this point!  Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.601176 / 1.0304 = 0.58343 in 0.001072 seconds.  Gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.22243512 / 1.0534 = 0.21115 in 0.001096 seconds. Gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!

Energy Gain through "time frame" manipulation!

GB
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 04:31:55 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2010, 03:41:15 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2010, 04:52:22 AM »
V = 12
R = 961
I = 0.01248
L = 0.961 - 1.0H
TC = 0.001 - 0.001162

Assuming the inductance is increasing 39mH according to a RPM at a rate 5 times faster than the TC, then we have the below.

V / L = Constant rate of change of current
12/ 0.961 = 12.486 in 0.001 seconds
4.44 / 1.00H = 4.44 in 0.001040 seconds. Rate of change of current is equal to the voltage. 0 inductance gain.  Break even point!
1.6248 / 1.039 = 1.5638 in 0.001081 seconds. Inductance gain at this point! Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.601176 / 1.078 = 0.55767 in 0.001121 seconds. Another gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.22243512 / 1.117 = 0.199136 in 0.001162 seconds. Another gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!

Inductance gain of 117mH after 5 time constants.

GB
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 05:15:59 AM by gravityblock »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2010, 07:42:05 AM »
@ALL:

Use the correct formula for a dynamically changing inductance and prove me wrong.

Inductance at TDC = 0.961mH. Maximum inductance of coil = 1.0H
Assuming the inductance is increasing 39mH from 0.961mH to 1.000H at a RPM that has a rate 5 times faster than "t", compute the following:

V = 12
R = 961
I = 0.01248
L = 0.961 - 1.0H

After you compute the calculations, I'll almost bet they're in close agreement with my calculations.

GB

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2010, 07:42:05 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2010, 02:14:19 PM »
It should be possible to calculate the values for this setup.
Suppose we charge coil "A" with inductance A, to produce a field that reduces the inductance of coils "B" and "C".
Then the fly back of coil "A" is used to charge coils "B" and "C". This transfers the entire charge of "A" into "B" and "C", while the inductance of "B" and "C" is increasing.

Then, recover the fly back of "B" and "C". If the calculations work, there should be a greater return than the initial energy provided.


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 10:27:45 PM »
It should be possible to calculate the values for this setup.
Suppose we charge coil "A" with inductance A, to produce a field that reduces the inductance of coils "B" and "C".
Then the fly back of coil "A" is used to charge coils "B" and "C". This transfers the entire charge of "A" into "B" and "C", while the inductance of "B" and "C" is increasing.

Then, recover the fly back of "B" and "C". If the calculations work, there should be a greater return than the initial energy provided.
The inductance in a coil is constant unless you change the coil itself. Inductance is not the inverse of resistance. The inductance allows higher impedance as the frequency rise. I say impedance because it is an inductive load. An inductive load allows phaseshift which is going from 0 degrees (at DC) to 180 degrees (at infinite frequency), and 90 degrees in resonance with a capacitance (-90 degrees) which allows totally 180 degrees phase shift. The phaseshift is the reason why the inductive coil increases impedance as the frequency rises - and also the reason why many inventors believe they have more power out than in...

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 10:27:45 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 12:05:34 AM »
Low-Q,

I mostly agree, with an addition: the inductance in a coil is constant IF it has no ferromagnetic core.  A coil with ferromagnetic core is far from linear, it can become nonlinear very easily, depending on the quality of the core and the amount of excitation i.e coil current.

Gyula

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 09:05:59 PM »
Inductance is not the inverse of resistance.

In my example, the inductance value of the coil is the inverse of the resistance value in order to have a fast rise time.  You can have the resistance to be even higher than this, but then you won't have enough current allowed by the resistance to saturate the core material.  I believe a metglas core can be saturated with as little as 12mA, which is the maximum current allowed by the resistance in my example.  I did not mean Inductance itself is the inverse of resistance, but only meant it as far as the inductance and resistance values were concerned within the context of my example.

GB
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 12:11:47 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 09:05:59 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2010, 12:02:40 AM »
Low-Q,

I mostly agree, with an addition: the inductance in a coil is constant IF it has no ferromagnetic core.  A coil with ferromagnetic core is far from linear, it can become nonlinear very easily, depending on the quality of the core and the amount of excitation i.e coil current.

Gyula
You are right about coils with a ferromagnetic core. They are far from linear. I just didn't see where this unlinearity should matter at relatively small currents.
I work with DIY speakers every day, and we often use iron powder cores in the inductors for crossover filters. These cores are none conductive to electric current, and quite linear untill the core are starting to be saturated. The saturation will occour at several hundred watts on the speaker. Measurements of harmonic distortion due to non-linear coils are almost outside the measurement scale at "normal" listening levels. Some core materials are a disaster, and other materials are better. It varies quite much. Air core coils are also non-linear due to other things which happens with the wire itself at higher frequencies. So we often use foil coils with air core. These foil coils are most used in the tweeter area. Most common are 12 and 16 AWG foils.

Offline nilrehob

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 10:42:26 AM »
If You have two equal coils on the same core,
for simplicity each with 1 H and 1 Ohm,
connect them in series and You have 4 H and 2 Ohm,
put 1 V on them and wait until they are saturated:

1 V and 2 Ohm gives 0.5 A (A=V/Ohm)
4 H and 0.5 A gives 0.5 J (J=1/2 *H*I^2)
0.5 A and 4 H gives 2 Wb (A*H=Wb)

Then disconnect the source and at the same time connect the coils in parallel.
When in parallel You have 1 H and 0.5 Ohm.

If the magnetic flux is constant during the moment of disconnect and reconfiguration:

2 Wb and 1 H gives 2 A (A=Wb/H)
1 H and 2 A gives 2 J (J=1/2 *H*I^2)

Then we have an increase in energy by 400%.
Is this possible?
Where is the error?

Here is a circuit that does the switching:
http://sites.google.com/site/nilrehob/home/energeticforum-circuits/sp-coil

/Hob

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 10:42:26 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2010, 01:01:05 PM »
If You have two equal coils on the same core,
for simplicity each with 1 H and 1 Ohm,
connect them in series and You have 4 H and 2 Ohm,
put 1 V on them and wait until they are saturated:

1 V and 2 Ohm gives 0.5 A (A=V/Ohm)
4 H and 0.5 A gives 0.5 J (J=1/2 *H*I^2)
0.5 A and 4 H gives 2 Wb (A*H=Wb)

Then disconnect the source and at the same time connect the coils in parallel.
When in parallel You have 1 H and 0.5 Ohm.

If the magnetic flux is constant during the moment of disconnect and reconfiguration:

2 Wb and 1 H gives 2 A (A=Wb/H)
1 H and 2 A gives 2 J (J=1/2 *H*I^2)

Then we have an increase in energy by 400%.
Is this possible?
Where is the error?

Here is a circuit that does the switching:
http://sites.google.com/site/nilrehob/home/energeticforum-circuits/sp-coil

/Hob

First of all 1H+1H in series gives 2H not 4H.

Which renders total energy of both coils to 0.25J.

Your second math is correct but you made an incorrect assumption. Both coils had 0.5A going through them, when in parallel they can allow each 1A indeed, but what magical process allows them to suddenly jump from 0.5A to 1A without any "charge" time? Essentially when hooked in parallel it will act like an 0.5H inductor that's pre charged to 1A (thus E=0.25J), meaning it will charge further to 2A (E=1J). This charge time isn't free.

Offline nilrehob

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2010, 02:21:38 PM »
I thought linear adding induction when they are on the same core doesn't apply?
Isn't induction related to the number of turns squared?

My assumption that the flux is constant "in mid air" may be wrong,
but then, what is constant in this case?

Probably the energy, but that would be soo disappointing, wouldn't it?

/Hob

Offline nilrehob

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2010, 03:19:32 PM »
And I guess the core has to be a toroid?

/Hob

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Maximum current in less time than the "Time Constant" is the Orbo Effect!
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2010, 12:52:21 AM »
Hi Hob,

If your core is a toroidal one and your coil is bifilarly wound i.e. two insulated wires are wound parallel to each other, AND you connect them in series AIDING phase, then the resultant inductance will be indeed near 4 Henry (about 4 times of any one 1 Henry coil) because of the MUTUAL INDUCTANCE involved between them. 
What broli wrote on the 2 Henry result is valid if the two 1H coils have no flux connection between them and you connect them in series.

When you connect such coils in parallel like the start of the first coil is connected to the start of the second coil so that effectively you double the wire diameter, then the resultant inductance remains 1 Henry, only the DC resistance gets halved.

rgds,  Gyula

 

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