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Author Topic: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet  (Read 15606 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2010, 10:17:19 AM »
I could be wrong but I have'nt found anything yet that will block magnetic attraction.........is there such a process??....shylo
You are right about this. There is no such thing which will block magnetism. But guiding the magnetism so it doesn't influence on other objects near by, is possible. That is what the magnetic shielding are suppose to do.

I have a feeling of the outcome of this design, but what I do know for sure is when energy are required to flip a magnet from attraction to repel (180 degrees flip), this energy corresponds to the energy which is provided by the rest of the system - so they cancels out to nothing. The shield in my simulations, as the picture above shows, is that the flipping magnets can do its trick without need of energy input (Which would be required due to possible counterforce from another magnetic field).

We also know it requires energy to pass a sticky spot, but if the magnetic field never pass the sticky spot, only the mass in the magnets, I have a strange feeling it will work.

If we isolate the shield together with the rotor magnets, the magnets will attract the shield in both ends even if the polarity are swapped during the operation, and cancel out the force needed to go completely through the shield. If we now put back the stator magnets, there will be a general attraction between rotormagnets and statormagnets on one side, and a general repelling force between them on the other side. Those forces will still be present no matter if the shield are present or not. The difference is that the shield will assist the polarity swap, by removing the magnetic force that prevents the magnets to flip 180 degrees. That is the only reason why I believe there will be excess torque at any time to run the motor.

Friction are energyloss which is possible to engineer more efficiently without violate the laws of physics. Creating energy out of nothing is quite much worse ;)

Experiments will eventually show the outcome, so it will be nice to test this in practice.

Vidar

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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2010, 01:59:47 PM »
The very first picture of the project. I disassambled a ribbontweeter. Lots of heavy duty neomagnets. I have one more tweeter to kill ;D

Offline marianpiti

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2010, 09:10:37 PM »
Hi...
There will be few small problems.... Magnetic field generated by small magnets inside the shielding...Changing poles inside a metal tube will affect the magnets entering the shielding... First small problem... Second...Changing poles on small magnets put new problem regarding the interaction between small magnets poles inside the shield during rotation...
What is the speed around axis and speed of the system ?...so you can calculate the minimal torque to rotate the magnets inside the shielding, knowing that the magnetic field will propagate also inside the shield (the small magnets are there, so they do have own magnetic field witch will propagate inside the shield).
This is only at first look...I did had this idea last year...little different, but almost the same. Without shielding. Try with outside magnets little oval shape in the middle, not round.... (so you have bigger distance regarding the small magnets during rotation...and you dont need the shielding anymore...where as I see it, will generate problems. It will work...mine did :)...But not so pleased about..Took 1 month to build and 5 min. to destroy... Too many mechanical details and joints.

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2010, 09:10:37 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2010, 10:46:14 AM »
The magnets are suppose to twist along the direction of the movement. I am not most worried about this twisting operation, but what might be worth worrying about, is the energy required to enter and exit the shield. I am not yet finished with a very simple prototype I am making - just to check this particular problem out. I will just place a magnet on a rod, and enter it into a steel tube in the precense of a long stator magnet. Mid-way inside the steel tube I will twist the rod so the magnet can flip polarity. I will then feel any possible counterforce. Also I will feel any possible forces during enterance and exit of the tube, before and after the polarity swap inside the steel tube. I guess it will resist enterence, and resist exit. The stator magnet will be much longer than the tube, with same polarity in the same direction all the time.

All magnets that is behind and in front of every twisting magnets have the opposte polarity, so in theory the twist operation alone should not require energy - maybe enterance and exit will do.

I'll keep you updated :)

Offline marianpiti

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2010, 11:20:51 AM »
Hi Low,

I will tell you a small trick...try make the outside magnets (the 2 big magnets) longer..so distance at the end of them is not bigger than 10 cm...in that point you will have almost double the power, because you will have repulsion with one magnet and attraction with other. And then, I think you can get the shielding out...as long you are turning 1 magnet at a time, there will be more than 3 - 4 pushing at maximum power if the outside magnets are long enough. This is how I did...In my model I put round small magnets with holes (like small tubes) on axel and in the center with a spiral axis they was turning...without shielding. You can also try to made 3 rows of magnets, so you will have more magnets working to turn 1 or 2 magnets at a time...and anyway, turning a magnet around his own axis, if is not so big, does not use much power. I am sure it will work.

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2010, 11:20:51 AM »
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Offline marianpiti

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2010, 11:31:28 AM »
A...one more small detail...try using round magnets (as I did) like tubes... because cuboids do have a bigger magnetic field power on the side...you know, the side power of field...in round magnets the side power is way much smaller, so you can turn it easyer that cuboids. And my sugestion is to take away the shielding. If you plan to use cuboids, try shield every magnet with soft iron...this will kill a little the side magnetic field...the shielding must be with 1-2 mm bigger than the size of the magnet. In that way, magnetic fields from every magnet will close the opposite pole thru the shield and the side force will be reduced.

Offline marianpiti

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2010, 12:00:01 PM »
Aaa...and you will have one more chalange  ;D
How you plan to turn the magnets ? How are you planning to hold the part that will turn the magnets ? If you already have the solution, is good...if not... I will tell you after you boil a little  ;D

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2010, 12:00:01 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2010, 12:07:40 PM »
A...one more small detail...try using round magnets (as I did) like tubes... because cuboids do have a bigger magnetic field power on the side...you know, the side power of field...in round magnets the side power is way much smaller, so you can turn it easyer that cuboids. And my sugestion is to take away the shielding. If you plan to use cuboids, try shield every magnet with soft iron...this will kill a little the side magnetic field...the shielding must be with 1-2 mm bigger than the size of the magnet. In that way, magnetic fields from every magnet will close the opposite pole thru the shield and the side force will be reduced.
I have lots of small round disc magnets which is magnetized through thickness. I will use them. I do not think the shape of the magnet are critical for this purpose, as a magnetic field in general will either resist or not the twist regardless of its shape. Also the magnetic foce at the edges in a square magnet are higher, as you said, this will also affect the attraction and repulsion with similar greater force before and after the shield. So basicly the shape shouldn't matter that much - in my opinion. Just an opinion :)

Another thing is that all magnets outside the shield are suppose to "power" the enterance and exit just as many times as the magnets which is attracting and repelling at any time. So the energy needed to pass through the shield would perhaps stop the rotation anyways. But this is what I want to test out in practice, just to be sure. At least, I will learn WHY it works or not :)

Vidar

Offline Blainiac

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2010, 10:03:28 AM »
Good luck Vidar!  I really enjoy your ideas, they are some of the most unique and well-thought of ideas I've seen.  It's also good you have an excellent grasp of the physics and can see if things will work or not.  Interesting idea!

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2010, 10:03:28 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2010, 12:55:08 PM »
Good luck Vidar!  I really enjoy your ideas, they are some of the most unique and well-thought of ideas I've seen.  It's also good you have an excellent grasp of the physics and can see if things will work or not.  Interesting idea!
Thanks for those encouraging words :)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2010, 08:53:52 PM »
I have done some tests with one single magnet which I guided inbetween two other magnets. I split the experiments in two sections. On in attraction mode and one in repelling mode.

First experiment went like this:
The "rotormagnet" feels a pull towards the statormagnet when it is outside, feels nothing in the middle, and are pushed back when it is closing the shield.

I swapped polarity, and the opposite forces are applied.

Green arrows are the direction of the force when using one single magnet as "rotor".

EDIT: I forgot to say that it was no counterforce when I tried to rotate the magnet insode the shield. After a few attemts I finally made an easy way to rotate it without the magnet getting stucked to the walls inside the shield all the time ;D

Maybe a continous array of magnets will behave differently, as the magnetic field then will be forced from being spread in all directions around the disc magnet, into a field which is allways parallell to eachother?

Vidar

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2010, 08:53:52 PM »
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